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Starkey in 'Scotland adores failure' rant

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Published Date: 19 October 2008
By Fiona Gray
THE "rudest man in Britain" yesterday turned his acid tongue on Scotland in a three-pronged attack on its history, its politics and its people.
TV historian David Starkey called Mary, Queen of Scots, "a whore and a trollop and a murderess", accused the Scots of "adoring failure", and branded the SNP "utterly contemptible".

Starkey, who rose to fame presenting historical television programmes about the lives of the Tudors, was on a radio programme, giving his thoughts on the SNP's idea of returning Mary, Queen of Scots', remains to Scotland.

He said: "It's exactly the kind of Scottish sentiment that makes the Scottish Nats' shortbread, tartaned, biscuit-tinned view of Scotland that is totally and utterly contemptible."

Starkey, who has gained a reputation for acerbic outbursts against the Queen, the BBC and Tony Blair, made the comments on Radio 2 comedy programme, Clive Anderson's Chat Room.

He added that Mary, who he said despised being queen of Scotland, would hate the idea of being returned, and that actually made her the perfect heroine for a people who "adore failure".

He said: "The only victory (Scots] have ever celebrated is Bannockburn; the rest is about wallowing in failure. They even have special music for failure – it's called bagpipes."

The 30-minute panel show is billed as a fast-paced entertaining satirical talk show, during which opinionated panellists speak their mind about the hot topics of the day.

Although fellow panelist and journalist Eve Pollard rose to the defence of Mary, Queen of Scots, calling her the glamorous "other woman" compared with her cousin Elizabeth I, Liberal Democrat MP and Scot Charles Kennedy did not reply to Starkey's comments.

Starkey added: "The union (of England and Scotland] has always been based on mutual humour and mockery."

Starkey previously attacked Scotland in 2004, when he branded it an unimportant country until it was joined with England in the 17th century. Following his comments a motion was tabled in the Scottish Parliament condemning the historian.


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1

Jimmy Le Pie,

19/10/2008 00:01:31
No news around tonight??
2

Rasco,

19/10/2008 00:02:16
Poor Man
3

,

19/10/2008 00:04:02
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4

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 19/10/2008 00:09:34
How did he get on a "comedy" program?
This guy is about as funny as a f@rt in an elevator.
'Mon son, it that's all you got best not quit yer day job.
5

Conan the Librarian™,

19/10/2008 00:11:33
Is he playing pocket billiards?
6

Matt there,

Somewhere 19/10/2008 00:14:26
Scots adore failure? Why then they must LOVE David 'not a particularly good historian' Starkey, then.

7

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 19/10/2008 00:15:22
Starkey knows the Tudor period and maybe he did not say it nice but he was right about the SNPs plans for 'Mary, Queen of Scots'- even if he did not get her title right.

As to Scotland being an 'unimportant nation' untill union with England, how important was England at this time ?
8

Brodric,

19/10/2008 00:24:00
This kind of bigotry and racial hatred is just about what we have gotten used to over the years, but it doesn't mean we are beaten or melancholy.

His insane meanderings almost don't deserve comment. But comment we must.

Reich's book "Listen Little Man" describes such monsters as Starkey - he is a fascist and racist bigot - I reckon he has hidden self=hatred at his own homosexuality and is mentally diminished by the SEEMING current lack of English culture and identity. And this makes him a mean, nasty sicko who is frightened of Scottish identity, culture and sentiment and the ability of the Scots to enter and examine the very things that dominate and scare them. Something he could never do.

Do we care - not a sot! Pity the little man for his narrow=mindedness and lack of originality.
9

Brodric,

19/10/2008 00:27:05
"TV historian David Starkey called Mary, Queen of Scots, "a wxxore and a trolxxop and a murderess"",

Oh, and bye the bye, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. David Starkey, that murderer of reputations...the rest of the adjectives, I will leave to your imagination.
10

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 00:33:59
These are the people we are supposed to trust to accurately represent our history on TV?

Everyone seems to want to take a poke at Scotland just now but we have the political solution in our own hands.
11

,

19/10/2008 01:01:09
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12

Steve,

Bo'ness 19/10/2008 01:11:23
He must be fishing for a job with the Scotsman!
13

Fifi la Bonbon,

19/10/2008 01:18:45
Mr Starkey missed out commenting on the famous ability of us Scots not to take ourselves too seriously and enjoy a joke at our own expense.

I love the last bit of this story - "Following his comments a motion was tabled in the Scottish Parliament condemning the historian." Once we get our frrrreeeedom there'll be no more comments like this!
14

Conan the Librarian™,

19/10/2008 01:50:04
Look at the photie.

Pocket billiards.
15

,

19/10/2008 02:09:09
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16

Willie Macleod,

Wick 19/10/2008 02:13:49
Good Morning Conan I hope this Sunday morning finds you well.

"Starkey Historian"just someone Oh I know lets say something shocking. That will get me the publicity and attention I seek
17

Kingston,

Singapore 19/10/2008 02:33:58
Why does the Scotsman even give this little man the time of day! Unless he has something sensible to say, ignore him.
18

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 19/10/2008 02:40:11
#12 LOL
19

Conan the Librarian™,

19/10/2008 02:42:21
Good evening Willie.

Don't you just want to give him a slap.

Starkey that is, Brown can wait.
20

Conan the Librarian™,

19/10/2008 02:44:44
Sorry; Good Morning Willie,
21

Stars in your eyes,

Tower of London 19/10/2008 02:44:47
Starkey is funny......like the Alf Garnett of History
22

Willie Macleod,

Wick 19/10/2008 02:56:10
#19 Conan Honestly I have never slapped anyone or wish to do so

Peace Love And Understanding is my message.
23

Willie Macleod,

Wick 19/10/2008 03:15:06
#19 Conan We will catch up later be it morning or evening. All The Best Willie
24

!Ya basta!,

19/10/2008 03:29:27
No need to take any of this to heart, everyone knows he's a pr***, down south its a widely held view. He's just looking for a reaction. Actually its quite funny to listen to a caricature like himself trying to make a caricature out of Scotland. And Kennedy was probably right not to engage with the man.
25

Aussie Jack,

Brisbane 19/10/2008 03:53:52
Aye laddie. And I'm pi*t tonight. but tomorrow morning I'll be sober, and you'll STILL be an English bas***d.
26

Kenny's Conscience,

Wick ( a moving target is harder to hit) 19/10/2008 04:09:33
We have to release Mr Starkey from his Scottish burden by means of independence.
Having said that he is correct insofar as wallowing in failure goes.
However independence would breed confidence and hopefully allow us to remove the chips from our shoulders.
27

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19/10/2008 04:51:58
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28

Bill St. James,

Florence, Massachusetts, U.S. 19/10/2008 05:40:19
I speak as a person with Scot's heritage who has been to your beautiful country and has studied its history.

You should smile at "television historian" David Starkey's remarks. He's clearly 'off his head' to use a British phrase. There are several possible reasons: He is lapsing into geezer-hood; He has forgotten to take his meds; He is desperate for attention.

Mary Queen of Scots' reputation will not be sullied by Mr. Sharkey. She was no w****. Nor was she a trollop. Yes, she was probably very attractive, and according to reliable sources, not exactly a goody two-shoes, but exaggeration does not prove Mr. Sharkey's argument.

So, smile folks.
29

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 19/10/2008 05:49:04
To David Starkers as in 'stark raving looney' we say "Awa' Bile Yer Heid!!!"
30

Aussie Jack,

Brisbane 19/10/2008 05:49:26
# 29. Well said.
31

British Military Vet Veritas,

The Cairngorms 19/10/2008 05:57:46

Any one that trusts an historian to learn what the past was like deserves all they get.

"He who learns by finding out
Has seven-fold
The knowledge of him who learns
By being told."

It is also said that you can tell the measure of a man by the things that irritate him. Some contributors seem, it would appear, allegedly, do not measure up to
32

British Military Vet Veritas,

19/10/2008 06:04:42
Mary, Queen of Scots is an enigma, to say the least. Her guilt or innocence in the murder of her husband has been debated for centuries. As many historians point out, every argument in favor of her innocence can be countered by one against. Most of the calumnies heaped against her in her own lifetime were the work of Scots scholar George Buchanan.

Mary was born at Linlithgow in 1542, the daughter of James V and Mary de Guise (who had been courted by Henry VIII of England). The princess became queen at the age of six days upon the death of her father. At age six, Mary was betrothed to Henry VIII's son, the ill-fated Edward, but with what results history will never disclose, the proposed union was nullified by a pro-French and Roman Catholic faction. The ire of the English king, exemplified by the period of invasions of his Scottish neighbours known as "the rough wooing," resulted in the defeat of the Scots at Pinkie (1547) and Mary's being sent to France.

In 1558, now a beautiful, blossoming 16 years of age, Mary married the heir to the French throne, the Dauphin Francis (who was only 14). She secretly agreed, if she were to die without a child, her Scottish kingdom would go to the French monarch. At the premature death of Francis, one year after he had become King, the firm hand of Catharine de Medici took control of France. Despite a revolution in Scotland that had rejected the French alliance and the supremacy of the Pope, Mary returned to Scotland.

The plot then thickened. When Elizabeth I became queen, Mary became heir presumptive to the English throne as the granddaughter of Margaret Tudor. Not only that, but Roman Catholics throughout Europe considered her to be a better claimant to the Crown of England than the queen herself, for they believed that Elizabeth's mother Ann Boleyn had been married illegally to King Henry.

Mary's reign started out well. Though she absolutely refused to recognize the Protestant Church. She took the advice of James Stua
33

British Military Vet Veritas,

19/10/2008 06:06:48
Mary, Queen of Scots is an enigma, to say the least. Her guilt or innocence in the murder of her husband has been debated for centuries. As many historians point out, every argument in favor of her innocence can be countered by one against. Most of the calumnies heaped against her in her own lifetime were the work of Scots scholar George Buchanan.

Mary was born at Linlithgow in 1542, the daughter of James V and Mary de Guise (who had been courted by Henry VIII of England). The princess became queen at the age of six days upon the death of her father. At age six, Mary was betrothed to Henry VIII's son, the ill-fated Edward, but with what results history will never disclose, the proposed union was nullified by a pro-French and Roman Catholic faction. The ire of the English king, exemplified by the period of invasions of his Scottish neighbours known as "the rough wooing," resulted in the defeat of the Scots at Pinkie (1547) and Mary's being sent to France.

In 1558, now a beautiful, blossoming 16 years of age, Mary married the heir to the French throne, the Dauphin Francis (who was only 14). She secretly agreed, if she were to die without a child, her Scottish kingdom would go to the French monarch. At the premature death of Francis, one year after he had become King, the firm hand of Catharine de Medici took control of France. Despite a revolution in Scotland that had rejected the French alliance and the supremacy of the Pope, Mary returned to Scotland.

The plot then thickened. When Elizabeth I became queen, Mary became heir presumptive to the English throne as the granddaughter of Margaret Tudor. Not only that, but Roman Catholics throughout Europe considered her to be a better claimant to the Crown of England than the queen herself, for they believed that Elizabeth's mother Ann Boleyn had been married illegally to King Henry.

Mary's reign started out well. Though she absolutely refused to recognize the Protestant Church.
34

British Military Vet Veritas,

19/10/2008 06:08:05
Sorry for the double post ---- continued

Mary took the advice of James Stuart, Earl of Moray and William Maitland in conceding recognition to the reformed church and modest endowment while continuing her own Catholic worship in private. Mary might have forfeited her Scottish throne had her husband not died in 1560, but her return, despite her early caution, had raised Protestant fears. These fears were partly allayed when, though negotiations were afoot for her marriage to Catholic Philip II of Spain, she settled on her first cousin, Lord Darnley. The marriage turned out to be a grievous error.

Scottish Protestants greatly feared that even the marriage to Darnley would mean a resurgence of Catholicism. They were not prepared to stomach that reversal of fortune. The Reformation in Scotland had taken place partly because it seemed as if the country was rapidly becoming nothing more than an appendage of France. Protestantism represented, in a very real manner, Scottish independence. The Darnley marriage ceremony was a Roman Catholic one. Moray raised a rebellion, easily crushed, but Protestants were further incensed when the Queen foolishly began to rely heavily upon non-Protestant, foreign courtiers, including her Italian secretary David Riccio, suspected of being a papal agent.

In 1566, Riccio was murdered by a group of Protestant lords, Darnley being implicated. In the same year, Prince James was born (later to reign as James VI of Scotland and James I of England). Mary, tiring of Darnley, began to show affection to James Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell, whose guilt in the murder of Darnley, along with that of Mary, is set out in the notorious Casket Letters, now considered a forgery.

Mary went ahead in a second disastrous marriage, this time to Bothwell, who had abducted her and divorced his wife. For the proud Scottish nobles, this was too much, and they forced Mary to abdicate her throne in favor of her young son. A feeble attempt by Mary to regain the thr
35

British Military Vet Veritas,

19/10/2008 06:09:19
After the Bothwell marriage, the Queen's supporters had been placed at a decided disadvantage compared to those influenced by the ballad writer Robert Sempill, who attacked Mary as an adulterous [bad wor deleted], and thereby justified her forced abdication. Queen Elizabeth, in the meantime, made sure that Mary's shortcomings were made the only criteria of her fitness to rule, and Mary's reputation was consequently so besmirched that even Catholics found it difficult to support her.

The most savage attacks on Mary's character came from George Buchanan, who sought very successfully to completely undermine her right to rule by showing that her reckless and malicious behavior proved her to be unworthy of her title. In the long run, however, such attacks on Mary's immorality could only play second fiddle to the much more important question of her religion, of her threat to Protestantism through her claim to the English throne. In her supporters' eyes, too, Mary's so-called immorality was a minor issue compared to her steadfast Catholicism. Her character and career as Queen of Scots was defended by no less than John Leslie, Bishop of Ross, who also supported her particular claim to succeed Elizabeth as Queen of England.

After Mary's execution, which was finally ordered by Elizabeth following a series of ill-conceived plots against the English Queen, the accession of a Protestant sovereign finally brought to an end the hopes of a return to Catholicism that Mary had personified. It also ended the vitriolic attacks on the person of Mary herself. Even leading Protestant writers now began to depict her as an unfortunate queen whose downfall had been brought about more through the caprice of fortune than by defects in her morals. More than one historian has pointed out that Mary's modern resurgence as a handsome, brave and proud woman, defeated through ill-circumstance and powerful enemies, seems to bear out her personal motto: "In my end is my beginning."
36

Saxon Yolk,

19/10/2008 06:15:15
I must say that Mr Sharkey's TV programmes have never been my cup of tea but on this occasion I can find no fault in his analysis.

There are some things that just have to be said and Sharkey has said them.

If you Scotchies don't like hearing them you can always tune in to that new gaylick Channel we bought for you.
37

scottish person,

paisley 19/10/2008 06:34:08
So, Mary Queen of Scots was a bit of a lass then. What about the late princess margaret and diana, they liked a frolic or two. Big chuck would love to be horse faces condom.
No news about right enough.
38

The Englishman,

England 19/10/2008 07:04:13
0 wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us To see oursels as others see us !
39

donald,

glasgow 19/10/2008 07:05:24
There must be a job for him in Ben Dover Hoose.
40

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 09:07:36
How apt that a useless old queen should be so vitriolic about a useless old queen. Does he not realise what a laughing stock he is amongst serious academics?
41

MoClana,

19/10/2008 09:16:17
For a country suppossedly insignificant, that celebrates failure, why do the likes of Starky and Paxman feel compelled to express their views so overtly about the Scottish nation?

Interestingly we have no mention from these Anglo centric experts on the contribution Scotland made not only in dying for THEIR colonial wars but to the world of medicine and science. Of course its conveniant to accuse Scotland of celebrating failure, when for centuries England has tried to corrupt, interfere and colonise Scotland. As a result we the Scottish people have against overwhelming odds had to defend our right to self determination. Anglo Saxon corruptness, spin and lies contiues to this very day in yet more desperate attepts at scaring the Scots from deciding their own destiny. We need look no further than the daily Unionist papers .

As for bag pipes, then i can only assume that as an international musical instrument played all around the world, that these numerous countries also celebrate failure?

Starky, calls himself an historian, however if your views on history are so anglo centric then you can not truly add any significant contribution to the subject and the reverse is true.

His rermarks are nothing but ignorant and racists and yet he is allowed his own T.V programme to air his twisted opinions.

The paradox in all of this is that if the Union is 'mutual' as he puts it, then how does he reconcile this with his anti Scottish remarks.

The Union is dead and Starky only speeds the process up, so apart from the fact your are a moron, i thank you.
42

Saxon Yolk,

19/10/2008 09:23:10
39

They do!

It is called Televisision.

As we speak, the BBC are assembling a programme that will prove that all Scottish Historical heroes were an unwashed rabble of murderous and drunken vagrants.

Where as everyone already knows, our King Arthur, Ivanhoe, Sir Lancelot, Sir Galahad and Robin Hood were cut from a different cloth entirely.
43

Davemmmm,

Edin 19/10/2008 09:23:21
Presumably the 'music of failure' that was played as the troops went over at El Alamein is the exception.... for a supposedly intellectual academic I think it's pretty poor for Mr Starkey to come over as a bigot... ah well, who cares really? When he's long forgotten, Scotland will still exist.
44

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/10/2008 09:31:03
Sharkey is only winding us up. Don't bite.
I doubt he's being serious with his stereotypcasting. If he is, then he's to be pitied, and aint the intellectual giant he's like us to believe he is.
45

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/10/2008 09:32:46
Perhaps someone should organise a debate twixt Sharkey and Gerald Warner ?
46

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/10/2008 09:33:52
f88k me I keep typing 'Sharkey'. Sorry Dave !
47

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 09:47:21
Starkey wouldn't be Starkey, if he wasn't criticising
someone, or something.

You should hear what he says about his mother-inlaw!
48

Calvinist,

19/10/2008 09:51:39
The return of the corpse of Mary Queen of Scots is a backward-looking gimmick that plays directly into the hands of right-wing nutters like David Starkey. Worse still it sends out all the wrong messages about Scotland to world at large. We are (undeservedly) rapidly acquiring an international reputation for being atavistic whingers thanks to the gesture politics of the SNP and their ilk. Its time we portrayed a positive view of Scotland. What about a celebration of the life and works of our greatest physicist James Clerk Maxwell who made the world of modern communication possible?
49

eric,

19/10/2008 09:54:43
He forgot to mention thr bastd that lizzie the 1st of England forgot to mention.check yor facts before you go calling someone a trollop.thry wont let me use the word they already have printed themselves..
50

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/10/2008 10:08:27
49 - 'atavistic' ? and your pseudonym is Calvinist . Oh the irony !
51

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19/10/2008 10:17:55
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52

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19/10/2008 10:20:25
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53

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19/10/2008 10:21:03
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54

cabrach loon,

inverness 19/10/2008 10:21:49
people like this do not deserve to be quoted or printed, they thrive on vulgarity, ignorance and dissent!
Who he is I know not nor do I care. So just waste him!
55

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19/10/2008 10:21:53
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19/10/2008 10:22:35
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19/10/2008 10:23:32
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58

KWC,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 10:23:34
There was a clue in the article -- comedy. If it had been Newsnight he might have been worth listening to.

OK, even if it had been Newsnight he is not worth listening to. As commenter #1 said, no news around?

PS I (a very proud Scot) thought he was funny.
59

eric,

19/10/2008 10:25:54
yes it was that unimportant,SCOTLAND was mining for coal in late 1600 under north sea before industrial revolution,mmm .
60

Grant,

Scotland 19/10/2008 10:27:56
#43

"Where as everyone already knows, our King Arthur, Ivanhoe, Sir Lancelot, Sir Galahad and Robin Hood were cut from a different cloth entirely."

lol You mean they were made up?
61

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/10/2008 10:35:47
52 - correction - Hibs wipe the flair with the herz at ER today.
62

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 10:35:48
I remember hearing Starkey on a panel, berating Scotland as a dreadful place. Terrible food, nowhere decent to stay, disagreeable inhabitants.

He later said he only ever buys his beef from Orkney???

I find this slimy little man quite disturbing.
63

The Rattler,

Scottish Borders 19/10/2008 10:38:02
I'll have you know that David Starkey brightens up every room he enters!

His boyfriend's finally shown him how a light switch works.......

64

Archie, Gourock,

19/10/2008 10:38:13
Imagine he said this about a Muslim country.

Imagine someone called him an odious english fudgepacker.

Awa bile yir heid, ya tumshie.
65

The Rattler,

Scottish Borders 19/10/2008 10:40:27
#67

It's quite amazing he 'bums' England up so much, lauding it as the greatest country in the world, yet he lives in Tarrytown, New York State!

(Sorry, no pun intended)
66

puskas,

East kilbride 19/10/2008 10:47:56
Maybe he is correct if only commenting on the Vichy Scots.

67

Mike Masterton,

19/10/2008 11:02:33
He reminds me of that other Starkey (Starky)Ringo, miserable tw*t
68

Mike Masterton,

19/10/2008 11:07:18
Oops,same spelling as David !Richard Starkey aka Ringo Starr
69

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 19/10/2008 11:11:51
You have to excuse Mr. Starkey's behavior, he can't help it, he is after all English.

He suffers from the complaint that is particular to all Englishman.

They are taught that best way to deal with their personal feelings of self loathing from loss of Empire and importance in the World is bye finding fault in their neighbors.

Jim Murphy suffers from the same affliction even though he claims to be Scottish.

They have yet to face up to the fact that they are a small country that represents only 4% of the worlds GDP.

4% is how much the worlds economies grew last year.

So if the entire UK was towed out into the middle of the Atlantic and sunk, the lose of one years growth would be how much the world would miss it.

They are increasingly angry at the Scots because we want to leave which will only further reduce their place in the world.

Without Scotland it would be unlikely that they would still get invited to G8 meetings and would only get invited to the significantly less exclusive G20 meeting.

So please excuse Mr. Starkey and those like him have such low self esteem that they need to make themselves feel bigger by insulting others. They should be pitied not despised.
70

Buckfastleigh,

Berwick sur Tweed 19/10/2008 11:12:17
Starkey enjoys himself by "'avin a go" as all the English do from time to time to Scots and others.

What is most telling however is that he appears to be quite content to be governed by a Scot PM and his Scot cabinet in all matters actual.

Why be exercised by the odd insult from someone whose ancestry, though European, is not of these Islands?

As for Maria Regina Scotorum, well, is he not "rit"? But her son certainly sorted the English out and dealt with their opposition with the accuracy of a mature Robespierre and the guile of Stalin. Diplomacy is not Sharma's forte.

Carry on Sharma... we await your next jems.
71

Pilrig,

Livingston 19/10/2008 11:19:50
70 - fingers crossed by the herz players - that their wages are in the bank.
72

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 19/10/2008 11:19:55
"rudest man in Britain"

And thats only his behavior in public lavatories.
73

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19/10/2008 11:20:48
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74

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 19/10/2008 11:21:20
Ah, a bit of self promotion from Starkey, i always get the immpression he is jealous of Scotland.. He is of course right about something, the Scots love of failure. The treaty of 1707 one of our biggest failures and still celebrated, nay promoted by Unionist Scotch Minnions to the embarrassment to the rest of us
75

Finlang,

Switzerland 19/10/2008 11:22:51
This vain trawler of public lavvies glories in his "rudest man in Britain" tag. His throwaway provocative lines are calculated to reinforce self-publicity. He is not typical of mainstrream England, despite some of the inane comments on these boards from the usual clutch of semi-literate stirrers from south of the border.

Years back Starkey excoriated the inhabitants of his birthplace, Kendal, in Cumbria, as having the accent and manners of working-class Norwegians. Says it all really. About Starkey, I mean.
76

alex11,

19/10/2008 11:29:56
Starkey's training video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO5leiwEiTM
77

Buckfastleigh,

the frontier at Berwick 19/10/2008 11:34:32
Well done Sharma you are a successful publicist just like your friend Winnie Currie: motto "any publicity is good publicity".

Still you did not indulge in sucking up to any previous PM!
78

Gie's a break,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 11:35:05
The guy's entitled to his opinion. The fact he is an arrogant opinionated buffoon, means no reasonable person needs to pay it the slightest bit of attention or feel aggrieved at the rantings of someone who is obviously insecure and insults others to prove his own self-worth.
79

Rasco,

19/10/2008 11:37:14
#15 Also saw that interview smug ignorant baszaszzz I thought as well .
80

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 19/10/2008 12:02:01
90
Daniel Dafoe the English spy who travelled Scotland before and after the union. After the Union Scotland was worse of industry and tax etc. That was his view as documented. There was also a motion in Westminster shortly after the Union for repeal of the treaty as the Scots Parliamentarians discovered er, i think we've made a mistake which was also supported by many English MPs. This motion was only narrowly defeated.
The Union has and still is unpopular. Just wondering which corn flake packet you got your history from
81

Canada,

Englishman 19/10/2008 12:04:16
Starkey is right. Go no further than Hampden Park. Glorious replicas of failures, goals by Gemmill and McFadden. And a total inability to stand up for yourselves and run your own country. All this requires no revolution, just the ballot box. Total failures indeed.
82

Steve Ev,

Malta 19/10/2008 12:13:28
Now I know why there was no second part to his first book on Elizabbeth 1st, which would have been the more interesting part of her life. Obviously no possible series on the turbulant life of Mary Queen of Scots. Given the fact that the broadcast was from the safety of a London studio, he has just become a pompous iron and gloats on the success of Elizabeth, thinking he's the greatest historian around.Any comments from Antonia Fraser yet ?
83

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19/10/2008 12:19:58
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84

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 12:20:22
What I find offensive in Starkey's comments is that because I'm pro independence, I'm perceived to have a,

"Scottish Nats' shortbread, tartaned, biscuit-tinned view of Scotland that is totally and utterly contemptible."

Nothing could be further from the truth, and I don't have an anti English bone in my body!
There's no point in responding to Starkey. He probably does like it err..... well...erm,... up 'im.......so to speak!
Can I just say I mean that in a non homophobic, no such thing as bad publicity, sort of way!
85

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 19/10/2008 12:21:02
93
Things gradually got better for Scotland despite being in the Union not as a result. Scotland at present, lowest life expectancy, high poverty,illegal wars ,could go on. However we now have a forward looking SNP Government which has Scotlands interest at heart. Oh and my corn flake packet Scottish History medieaval early modern which i sutdied
86

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 12:32:40
#93 sm753

Would that be the same T.M. Devine who wrote,
"Clearance and Improvement"? ( Improvement?????)
Another Union dividend!
87

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 12:37:30
the only way people such as this man can get attention is to insult others
88

Saxon Yolk,

The Hawes Inn 19/10/2008 12:47:11
64 Grant

Rumbled
89

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 12:49:16
I expect he'll be the next editor of the 'Hootsmon', since he seems to hold the same views about Scotland as your esteemed organ.
90

Saxon Yolk,

19/10/2008 12:51:55


101 sm753

"Hey, the sheep thought it was an improvement. More importantly, so did the folks who owned them."

At last a Scotchman with a proper understanding of his place and his country's stature in the great scheme of things.
91

noswod,

Honestas 19/10/2008 12:52:57
Starkeys views are interesting because they reflect an historical viewpoint taken by a good percentage of
the English ruling class who couldn't give a stuff for Scotland but every 50 years or so would get dragged into a War with the Scots so strove for a way of preventing war and trouble happening again i.e Union 1707 after Scotland have gone bust just like 300 years later. Lats face it to them Mary was a Scot, wrong religion, threat to Elizabeth throne maybe as good as claim as hers and she was very willing to plot with other English Lords and Spainards against Elizabeth I. In the context of the times, especially after 20 years of house arrest the last series of plotting against Eliz, the decision for the chop was ineviatable. Within a United Kingdom Starkeys and the ilks views can be contained and do no damage but generate newprint and blog inches. If Scotland were independant these kind of views would prevail from London and do real damage to Scotland.
92

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 12:56:33
#101 sm

I don't think it could be argued as an improvement for the majority of people living in the affected areas.

I believe there was a saying along the lines of, " A man who castrates sheep with his teeth, isn't fit company to be/drink in/with."

Agreed re rights and democracy. Could I suggest as a change from your usual breakfast cereal, Billy Kay's The Scottish World, on the Scottish diaspora.

Interesting how many Scots went on to champion democracy and independence all over the world, from India to South America!
93

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 19/10/2008 13:07:25
So?
94

Nellie,

Liverpool 19/10/2008 13:09:48
Ahhhh... is little Diddums upset by the nasty man saying horrible things about us? Are we so immature a populace, is our sense of self worth so low, our self esteem so weak that we need to defend ourselves from an insult?
95

Team Scotland,

I want my empire back 19/10/2008 13:23:25

There is no need to be excessively offended; transference is often expressed by lashing out. As the sun sets on his motherland, it is losing its sense of place. It must be difficult for little Englander’s to observe “an unimportant country” asserting its identity when ‘Jerusalem’ dwindles. This is a tantrum of a jingoistic English chauvinist who is struggling to accept that his once great nation is now an American protectorate.

96

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 13:25:10
Well said, Mr Starkey. he's perfectly correct of course. Better the truth comes now rather than later when we're the new Albania if the dupes ever vote for independence. What's that saying from Robert Burns about the gift tae gie us. ?
97

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 13:32:33
#110 Nellie

This from a citizen of a town that's still in a huff with The Sun over an article 20 years ago. Oh, and try telling Boris Johnson how thick-skinned your average Scouse is. Watch where your chucking that stone now...
98

danbob,

19/10/2008 13:40:36
Starkey is spot on. The story goes like this. 1997 Nearly the whole of Scotland votes for Blair. Monster raving looney party gets almost the same level of support as the NATS.
1998 Mel Gibson releases Braveheart. A film about as accurate as Cinderella. Suddenly Scotland is oppresed and must be free of the imaginary nasty english.
As a nation Scotland needs to grow up a bit more.
99

Calum Crubag,

19/10/2008 13:42:55
We have to remember that not all English folk are arrogant barstewards.

His ignorance of Scotland pre-union is staggering. Scotland traded peacefully with all major European nations while England was at war with them. The work of Andrew Fletcher, David Hume, Adam Smith, John Knox, John Muir and others have helped shaped democratic and federalist ideas of current times.

Leave the English to their aggressive and warmongering nationalism.
100

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 13:44:58
# 114

Well said danbob. Scotland now has an electorate who believe that the ludicrous film Braveheart is a documentary.
101

Calum Crubag,

19/10/2008 13:45:55
It must hurt that England doesnt even have it's own culture. It's language is basically German with an estimated 2 thirds of it now from French. Does 'English' even exist?! Their royal family is German. Even St. George is shared with Germany!

Could England be independent? Doubt it. It's needs our oil money to finance it's imperialism and wars.
102

Calum Crubag,

19/10/2008 13:47:19
And nothing the Sasannaich here say makes it look like they want to live peacefully with anyone. They seem to hate ALL their neighbours - Scots, Welsh, Irish, French, Germans. Even the Argies still get it tight from them!
103

danbob,

19/10/2008 13:49:05
Starkey says until the union with England, Scotland was an unimportant country. So from dust you came, and to dust you will return.
104

Herne the Hunter,

All of Scotland 19/10/2008 13:51:06
Surely this little bauchle could be reported to the race relations board for such comments. Jehads have been causes by lesser comments. I was a guest at lunch with him two years ago in Edinburgh, and I'm afraid he is actually worse in the flesh, arrogant,ill-mannered and totally in love with himself. He is a real caricature of all that is nasty in an anglophile.
Is he not aware that England once had an empire,which was created and run by Scots.

As to our other Anglophile the Saxon Joke.

"Where as everyone already knows, our King Arthur, Ivanhoe, Sir Lancelot, Sir Galahad and Robin Hood were cut from a different cloth entirely".

Time to go back to primary school young man and learn some real history.
Has nobody ever told the laddie that they are all Fictional and one of them was created by a Scotsman, no wonder the English have no identifiable culture.

105

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 13:51:33
#114 Danbob

"As a nation Scotland needs to grow up a bit more"

Couldn't agree with you more! I think that sentiment is at the very heart of the independence argument. Good to see you come over.

Saw "Invincible" Iain Gray on TV earlier, peddling his "Too wee, too weak, too poor" message again, saying the Scots govt should just get on with what it's got, and be jolly well grateful!
106

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 13:52:06
I reckon I would believe the words of a world renowned historian like Mr Starkey on Scotland than armchair nationalists. He is perfectly accurate on Mary, Queen of Scots.
107

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 13:58:26
This guy actually thinks he is insulting us but as you can see from the comments above he is actually giving us a good laugh, if he starts slagging us we have so much more to slag him back about, as in his public lavatory misdemeaners, i mean if he whats a slagging match with the scots he will lose and the homophobic remarks are justified
108

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 14:01:20
#90 sm753
Here's how Scottish Television recounted the events leading to the Union quarter of a century ago, lamenting the diliterious effect that the Union of the Crowns in 1603 had on Scotland's economy prior to the Treaty of Union in 1707 and following a century of Scottish interests being sold out by their own king (and Cromwell) in the period leading up to the forceful arranged marriage of Scotland to England.

I suggest @2min 40secs-5min 10s Scottish MP Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun's observations on the decline of the Scottish nation is particularly resonant with our current experience.
http://video.stv.tv/bc/scotland-history-20080530-a-historical-account-of-how-the-treaty-of-union-was-formed-almost-300-years-ago/
109

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 14:01:44
#114 Danbob

"As a nation Scotland needs to grow up a bit more"


And that will come with independence, i dont think you know much about the scots do you, yes we love glorious failure, Scotlands national football team comes to mind and we also love to laugh at ourselves which is a great way to stop turning into stuck up english and scotish unionist twits
110

danbob,

19/10/2008 14:01:52
118# You say the Sasannaichs hate Scotland. Funny that. Most of the hate is pedalled on Scottish newspaper forum boards.
111

Roy Forrester,

Bllomsburg 19/10/2008 14:05:35
Starkey's tenuous grasp of history is showing and like most "TV actors" he should not be taken seriously. Charles Kennedy was absolutely correct in his no response action. Starkey's comments did not deserve a response.
112

danbob,

19/10/2008 14:07:22
125# No Scots don't love to laugh at themselves. They love to hate themselves. Rangers hate Celtic. Catholics hate Protestants. Scotland hate England. Some scots hate the Irish. Nationalists hate unionists. These boards are overflowing with hate.
113

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 14:07:27
The spew and bile spat on the English by inadequates is embarrassing to real Scots. No one is more proud to be Scottish than I am but I don't judge how much I love Scotland by how much I hate England. The English are most tolerant and hospitable nation on the planet.
114

Can-Scot,

Pickering, Ontario 19/10/2008 14:08:35

I wonder if he has the courage (or is daft enough) to walk into a pub in Rose Street or Duke street and repeat his comments. Anybody offering odds on his ability to walk out afterwards????????



115

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 14:09:52
# 130

Well said again danbob. If the Scots aren't hating each other through religion, they are hating the English. The insecurity, paranoia and inferiority-complex about England is embarrassing.
116

AJ Fife,

19/10/2008 14:11:26
Starkey looks a bit light on his loafers! Note the limp wrist on the pursed lips!

A fine example of his race....
117

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 19/10/2008 14:11:36
I thought Starkey summed things up very accurately for once.
118

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 14:27:22
Scotland has no future but a wasteland outside the Union. Wee Salmond's Arc Of Prosperity gag though was funny....I'll give him that.
119

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 14:31:19
#131, 133 Keef Richards

" The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls.
Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination."

Don Roberto Cunninghame Graham. Founding member of the Scottish Home Rule Association.
120

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 19/10/2008 14:33:55
#141 oh yes, "Settler Watch". They were useful weren't they?!
121

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 14:34:18
# 141

Get over it. The Arc Of prosperity proved that. LOL
122

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 14:38:56
#142

"Settler watch"????????? In the 1920s ?????? Eh????
123

danbob,

19/10/2008 14:42:04
141# Your just quoting a nat. The point is the hate level is such that should an independent Scotland become a failure financialy. Bloodshed could break out. There is so much hate and hostility. Don Roberto Cunninghame Grahams quote just backs what I am saying up.
124

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 19/10/2008 14:42:04
#145 According to an English friend of mine they were still bricking his windows in the 1980s.
125

Finlang,

Switzerland 19/10/2008 14:43:55
#114 danbob

"... 1998 Mel Gibson releases Braveheart. A film about as accurate as Cinderella."

Hmm ... I wonder if that was that the same Braveheart I saw with my (then) English wife in England - in 1996.

and

#126 danbob
"... Most of the hate is pedalled on Scottish newspaper forum boards."

Who by? Chris Hoy? How does one "pedal" hate? You, Danbob, peddle your prejudices aplenty above, aided and abetted by a ventriloquist's dummy ...

Keef Richards (everywhere above):
Are you and Danbob joined at the hip?


126

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 14:49:08
# 149

Where have I mentioned that I hate anyone.? Far from it, I said unlike others I DON'T need to hate England to prove how Scottish I am.
127

wayne bijlyeerheid,

19/10/2008 14:53:49
I had the unfortunate experience of listening to the racist's rant.
If it had been aimed at any other nationality or race the BBC would be on their knees apologising.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00f0lfy/Clive_Andersons_Chat_Room_Series_5_Episode_5/
128

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 14:54:13
#148
What's that got to do with Cunninghame Graham, or anything else? Certainly not an issue in his time or now!
129

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 14:55:43
Ultimately every politician like football managers are doomed to failure. Churchill, Thatcher, the lot, their only saviour is to die in office and even then history may be no kind judge.

What Fletcher did however was reflect was the common mood in Scotland expressed by London spy Daniel Defoe that: for every Scotsman who was in favour of the Union with England 99 were against it.

The 1603 Union of of the Crowns and the century of shared monarchy with England was the ruination of Scotland's economy, long before their own good king Billy the 2nd and sold them out to the Spanish and the East India Company during the Darien Project, famously now known as the Panama Canal.
130

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 15:02:11
#139 sm753

Ultimately every politician like football managers are doomed to failure. Churchill, Thatcher, the lot, their only saviour is to die in office and even then history may be no kind judge.

What Fletcher did however was reflect was the common mood in Scotland expressed by London spy Daniel Defoe that: for every Scotsman who was in favour of the Union with England 99 were against it.

The 1603 Union of of the Crowns and the century of shared monarchy with England was the ruination of Scotland's economy, long before their own good king Billy the 2nd and sold them out to the Spanish and the East India Company during the Darien Project, famously now known as the Panama Canal

Console yourself with the idea that although Gordon Brown may not be the last Scottish PM of England he just might be the last of Great Britain and N. Ireland.
131

wayne bijlyeerheid,

19/10/2008 15:09:38
Perhaps some points of their own history should be highlighted to the likes of Starkey and the "superior" race of the British Islands.
There is NO "English" ruling class, the Anglo-Saxon "aristocracy" was completely eliminated after the Norman Conquest and since then the English have been ruled by a foreign race who defined themselves by the absence of any English blood rather than its presence.
They married the Welsh (Tudors), they married the Scots (Stewarts) but they would not allow interbreeding with what they saw as a race of peasants.
Likewise, there is not one drop of Anglo-Saxon blood in the Royal Family, unless some came through Queen Margaret who married Malcolm Canmore in Scotland, for the same reason.
One Englishman who understood this was Thomas Paine, and if anything "The Rights of Man" is an attempt to get his fellow nationals to recognise it.
Starkey superior?
Ringo maybe.
132

Finlang,

Switzerland 19/10/2008 15:25:38
#150 Keef Richards

"# 149 Where have I mentioned that I hate anyone.?"

Where have I mentioned that YOU hate anyone? Oh ... you ARE danbob's spare part then? Tiny slip eh?

133

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 15:34:42
# 159

If you can't decipher plain English it isn't my problem. Back to the real world....Starkey is correct.
134

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 15:51:55
The fantasy of independence is gone. It was a laughable notion anyway by the deluded carried away after a few viewings of Braveheart.
135

Finlang,

Switzerland 19/10/2008 15:55:34
#161 Keef

You body-swerve my valid question @159 with an unrelated aspersion about my ability to "decipher plain English". Ho hum, back to the real world of work for me. Starkey is still a pompous, unpleasant, deeply offensive drone.
136

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 15:57:19
Are you really attempting to compare the script of Braveheart to Macbeth.? We've got a live one,folks.!
137

Finlang,

Switzerland 19/10/2008 15:59:23
#161 Keef
the bit that went awol from #166 ...

Yes, you could be right. Perhaps I spend too much of my work time deciphering other languages (into English).

138

danbob,

19/10/2008 16:01:34
162# William Wallace wasn't even the architect of the battle of Stirling bridge. Andrew de Moray was the brains behing that battle. He died of his injuries at the battle. Very, very little is known about Wallace. He was probably born around the South west of what is now Glasgow and probably a poacher. He had a run in with the sheriff of Lanark and was made an outlaw. Before you put him on a pedestal consider his actions at Falkirk where he was responsible for anything from 6000 to 10000 deaths due to his ignorance of english tactics, and Edwards longbowmen. He was a born loser but like Starkey says the scots love failures. Most of Wallaces ledgend grows up around the chronicles of blind Harry. He lived hundreds of years later and it was reputed he made up the ledgend because Scotland was moving towards union. Blind Harry would have had a field day posting on here. The ultimate nat troll.
139

danbob,

19/10/2008 16:14:02
166# Maybe Keef is ignoring you because you talk drivel.
140

Whiskey,

19/10/2008 16:16:14
Starkey...you are the reason for dislike between Scotland and England.
I stood on some dog s**t yesterday and immediately thought of you.
141

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 16:18:15
# 171

I'm glad you answered the Macbeth and Braveheart comparison....I was too busy laughing.

# 172

Correct. Why waste energy on zealots and blind nationalist fanatics.?
142

danbob,

19/10/2008 16:18:43
171# Me to. Unfortunatly the type of people who belive every newspaper article or naff film don't have the intelligence to hunt the truth.
143

eldergeek,

by Inverness 19/10/2008 16:22:29
I would advise anyone who believes that we Scots felt ourselves better off after the union to take the time to read "Handful of Rogues" by Hector MacMillan. It should help understand the true history of Scotland, often conveniently omitted by most historians!!!!
144

Eyesrolledindespair,

19/10/2008 16:34:32
Post # 171 @ 16.14:

I think you will find "Macbeth" was anti-Scottish propoganda written for QE1!

That is why it was so inaccurate.... deary me!
145

Eyesrolledindespair,

19/10/2008 16:37:03
Post #177 @ 16:32:56:

You glean all your information from ONE solitary book? Hardly academic!
You need to spread your reading over a greater field of authors and editors to find a more unbiased and rounded picture of history.
146

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 16:38:17
# 178 So anything that isn't fanatically pro-Scottish is therefore in turn anti-Scottish propaganda.? Dearie me,indeed.!
147

danbob,

19/10/2008 16:40:47
179# What would it matter anyway? When Shakespere was around the union wasn't.
148

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 16:43:13
#177 sm

If you're going to repeat it, so am I.

Would that be the same Devine who wrote "Clearance and Improvement" covering the years 1700-1900.

Strange use of the word "Improvement" I haven't come across before.

149

danbob,

19/10/2008 16:45:56
178 Eyesrolledindespair# Sorry my last post was aimed at your 178# You are correct though about reading different books. The same can be said of the internet. Some of the information on wikipedia and other sites is just wrong. But people belive every word. We will have a generation in coming years who have had the truth removed from them.
150

Eyesrolledindespair,

19/10/2008 16:46:56
Never said that: Not looking for anything fanatically pro anything.
Just an unbiased outlook from all areas of the media, whether it be broadcast, print and such like. Whether they are historical or modern.
151

Eyesrolledindespair,

19/10/2008 16:52:52
Post 184 @ 15:45:56:

Thankyou.
You are correct. There will be a generation growing up with a strangely skewed historical knowledge.

However, as I remember it, schooling in the 1960's and 70's was revisionist at its worst, with only a smattering of Scottish history thrown in as a token effort.

Research and reading widely has helped....

Oh and incidentally... I have NEVER watched Braveheart! And won't. I find most of Hollywoods effort at history... annoying.. to say the least! And I'm not only referring to Scots history either... before the heaps of insulting remarks begin!
152

westview,

19/10/2008 16:59:58
I remember that the British (English) establishment and cultural spokes folk used to slag off the Irish with "jokes" about their dim wittedness and uncouth ways. That stopped when the message got through that the Irish were NOT stupid . They are in fact ,even after the present turmoil in banking,far better off per head than the "mighty UK "subjects. So now they pick on Scots. Watch out Isle of Man ,they will be picking on you next when Scotland is free of the English Empire. Unless Isle of Man people care to rejoin with their cousins in the free North?
153

Keith Mac,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 17:04:42
What of course is wrong with Starkey here is - that he is right! Whatever Nationalist numpty dreamed this MQ of S stunt up is doing the nation a serious disservice and reducing SNP politics to utter farce. Only a short step thereafter and the SNP will be calling for the reinstatement of the Stuart line! Absolute farcical and embarassing and Salmond should dissociate himself from it completely.
154

The Sprucer,

19/10/2008 17:11:00

I've never read or watched anything by Starkey but he sounds like a really sad person.
155

brownlie,

19/10/2008 17:23:13
130 danbob

In your list of Scots who apparently hate each other I notice that, although you mention Nationalists hating Unionists, you make no mention of the Unionists' attitudes to Nationalists.

Why is that?
156

brownlie,

19/10/2008 17:40:05
196 sm753

"... the morals and standards of the period were not the same as today, thankfully"

On what is this contention based?
157

Liam D,

Baile nam Muc-mara 19/10/2008 17:46:31
Thanks for reminding me to make my contribution to the SNP.
158

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 17:52:19
Good old David, don't you just love him?

Knowledgeable on historical facts he is, total exhibitionists he is, childlike in his desire to shock he is, but bright he is not.

He is a rabid, racist English nationalist of the worse kind (refuses to join the BNP because he thinks they are too liberal)lol.

We need to see and hear more of David in Scotland, he's worth 100s of new voters every time he opens his sensation seeking mouth.

Psychiatrists would kill to get this colourful specimen on their couch.
159

Finnking,

Lempäälä 19/10/2008 17:56:33
From the article:"Starkey previously attacked Scotland in 2004, when he branded it an unimportant country until it was joined with England in the 17th century."

Therein lies the true heart of the worse aspects of English Nationalism: the absurd notion that "importance" means something desirable.

All Unionist sentiments are essentially English Nationalism in the guise of White Man's Burden rhetoric.
160

Rami,

Derry, New Hampshire U.S. 19/10/2008 18:05:50
Might I suggest that G.B., Mr. Starkey ware a "Rude Boy" Fedora Hat by Jaxson, with a 1 1/2 inch stingey
brim.
161

brownlie,

19/10/2008 18:23:31
201 sm753

The Highland proprieters forced people off their land and into exile - with the help of the British military.

You contend that in today's moral climate this kind of thing could not happen.

As a result of the intervention in Iraq, again with the help of the British military, the amount of exiles created make the clearances pale into insignificance.
162

santa cova,

London 19/10/2008 18:24:51
David Starkey only speaks the truth.Scotland in real terms is only a region of England. Ruled from London by English polititions and ruled over by the Queen of England,what are people supposed to say about this completely defeated country?I know that Scotland pretends to be a nation,but it is not.End of story.
163

,

19/10/2008 18:29:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
164

joe stalin,

19/10/2008 18:35:28
so mary was a wxxxxe ,what does he say about henry(couldnt keep his d*~+ in his codpeice)v111
165

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 19:07:28
Yon Starkey - never heard of him before - really does have a subtle turn of phrase.

Richard Starkey is much well better known than this person. Perhaps that is because he got out and about a bit.
166

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 19:08:12
169 danbob
Very, very little is known about Wallace:

Well here's one of the best essays I have read on Wallace I am happy to share it with you, nothing in it about poaching though, it is by Dr Fiona Watson published in 1999 for East Ayreshire Council.

http://www.east-ayrshire.gov.uk/comser/tourism/William%20Wallace.pdf

Here's a wee tale about Wallace post Battle of Falkik you might also enjoy:
The Battle of Rosslyn Glen 1303

On 24 February 1303 8,000 Scots led by Sir John(Red) Comyn Guardian of the Realm supported by Sir William Wallace, amongst notable others, faced and routed an English army numbering 30,000 only 10% of whom survived to return home.


The Scottish forces were alerted by monks from the Cistercian Priory close to Rosslyn. The prior, Abernethy, had previously been a Templar knight.

A Scottish army of 8,000 men was massed in Biggar, combining the forces of John Comyn, Sir William Wallace, Sir Symon Fraser, Somerfield of Carnwarth, Simon of the Lee, Fleming of Cumbernauld and the Knights of the Hospital at Torphichen, with Sir Henry St. Clair of Rosslyn Grand Master of the Scottish Knights Templar.

Wallace was unwilling to command perhaps because his confidence had suffered following the Battle of Falkirk. His suggestion of Sir Symon Fraser as the hands-on command was accepted, and he made full use of Abernethy's local knowledge and Wallace's tactical ability.

details of the ensuing battle at this site:
http://www.lordbothwell.co.uk/roslinglen.html
The Scots won 3-0 at home.
167

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 19:12:32
Oh dear, dear, dear, Smee@211. So it's OK to invade another country because you don't like the leader and it's ok to clear your land because you don't like the people.

Warped logic.
168

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 19:25:48
An essential read on Scottish history is The Emperor's New Kilt by Jan-Andrew Henderson. It smashes all the myths we grew up in Scotland such as the " endless oppression and colonisation" by the English. The nationalists won't like the reality though contained in the book.
169

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 19:38:23
207 santa cova

That would be the same Queen of an England united with the Scots under the Crown of the Scottish House of Stewart, the English House of Plantagenet died out with Good queen Bess, except that even then they were Norman French and then Welsh Tudor and before that Danish and German. now they are Scottish and Danish German:ie Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg(Batenburg)/ Bowes-Lyon/Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha/ Windsor.

England could be argued to be a region of Britain which is ruled by Scots or such English politicians as Blair, Brown, Darling, and Michael Martin.

How English exactly is this England of yours?
170

Electric Hermit,

19/10/2008 19:41:33
114 danbob, 19/10/2008 13:40:36
Starkey is spot on. The story goes like this. 1997 Nearly the whole of Scotland votes for Blair. Monster raving looney party gets almost the same level of support as the NATS.

If you are going to get it wrong I suppose you are as well to get it spectacularly wrong lest there be any lingering doubts about your foolishness.

In 1997 Labour gained 45.65% of the vote on a turnout of 71.3%. Very far from being "nearly the whole of Scotland".

Meanwhile, the SNP took 21.96% of the vote, coming second to Labour and giving them the fourth highest vote in the UK, well ahead of the likes of UKIP and BNP.

The Monster Raving Loony Party's vote share was vanishingly small. Rivalled in insignificance only by your political knowledge and David Starkey's wit.
171

Helter Skelter,

19/10/2008 20:01:48
Starkey isn't half the historian that Simon Schama is.
I's like comparing ITN News with Channel 4 news.

Starkey , unlike Schama, needs to say something offensive before people pay him any attention.
He can't draw people into his subject in the way Schama can.

Starkey strikes me as someone who is at a personal level deeply unhappy and probably there is some sexual aspect to that.

We must simply pity him.
172

Ted Voth Jr,

Mad Town Wes' Consin 19/10/2008 20:06:17
'Following [Starkey']s comments a motion was tabled in the Scottish Parliament condemning the historian.'

Don't bother, Scots Parliament, don't waste your time. What does he know?
173

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 20:06:59
177 sm753,

>>>there were difficulties for a while, but also that there was an upside. And within 30-40 years the upside was dominant<<<

That upside would be the ethnic cleansing and martial law imposed upon Scotland and Act of Proscription 1746 outlawing Scottish language and culture, the Heritable Jurisdictions (Scotland) Act 1746 would have had full effect in removing lands and properties of Clan Chiefs loyal to the House of Stuart, so destroying the highlanders' way of life which in turn enabled the 'improvements' of the 19th century in the Scottish Highlands, commonly involving evicting families from their houses and burning their homes?
174

brownlie,

19/10/2008 20:08:49
211 sm

My comparison is only nonsense in your opinion.

Military might was used in both cases to the detriment of the indigent population. Crofts and buildings were devastated in the same way that Bagdad has been devastated.

I would suggest to you that the vast majority of Iraqis, those left alive or those in exile, hate what they regard as invaders in their land.

Your claim suggested that such callous actions could not take place in this, more moralistic, age. My point was that brutality and the use of military might has no morals or conscience - then and now.
175

danbob,

19/10/2008 20:10:56
218# I know full well what the NATS took in Scotland. However it still only amounts to 15.65% of the vote eligable electorate. Hardly convincing. My comparisons with the Monster raving looney party was an illustration of how Scotland viewed the SNP in 97. Not intended as a literal comparison. I think 15.65% shows this quite well. The fact is this the SNP forms a very good protest vote in Scotland. We know Scotland cannot bring itself to vote Conservative. But the fact remains that 15.65% means there is a mountain to climb in order for scots to allow them to take them out of the union. I really doubt that when it comes to it the SNP will get the mandate.
176

Electric Hermit,

19/10/2008 20:19:46
223 danbob, 19/10/2008 20:10:56
I really doubt that when it comes to it the SNP will get the mandate.



You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But not all opinions are of equal worth. Your earlier remarks give no reason to suppose that your views are sufficiently informed to be of any great value.
177

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 20:25:02
Don't be too hard on Mr Starkey ; he's merely preening himself as leader writer-in-waiting at Scotsman Publications.And his views can only serve to bolster the SNP's commanding lead in the opinion polls.
178

danbob,

19/10/2008 20:31:21
Well my opinion is equal to yours. However there is only one way to find out. And father time will deliver that.
179

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 20:35:21
223 danbob,
In 1983 Margaret Thatcher won the General Election with 33.3% of the electorate and won a landslide.
David Camerons' New New Conservatives might also by your standards be described as a very good protest vote, in England.

Similarly you seem to be overlooking the fact that the SNP only has to win a majority of seats(30/59) in a first past the post general election in Scotland to achieve a mandate for independence.

Last poll showed them on 44%, do I need to remind you that Labour won 41 seats in 2005 with 39% of the popular vote?
180

brownlie,

19/10/2008 20:39:43
227 sm753

I may be usual semi-sensible but at least I am not arrogant or insulting which is becoming a common theme in your posts.

You have again evaded the issue which was first suggested by you that nothing like the eviction of individuals from their homes could happen in today's moral climate.

Was the invasion to help the Kurds or the Marsh Arabs or was it to get a firm grip on Iraq's oil?

Come to think of it, you don't have to answer that - even the most extreme apologists for the union knows the answer.
181

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 20:40:09
229 sm753
>>>...I could go off to the books and dig out some relevant statistics, but quite frankly cannot be bothered...<<<

None so blind as those who cannot be arsed to challenge their own predjudices.
182

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 20:41:17
231 sm753
As I was saying: none so blind...
183

brownlie,

19/10/2008 20:41:52
231 sm753

No I meant indigent - look it up.
184

john z,

edinburgh 19/10/2008 20:45:33
These comments from Mr.Starkey shed little light on history, but do give great insught into a shallow little man who appears to be quite unstable.

Really quite sad.
185

brownlie,

19/10/2008 20:54:21
237 sm753

Now that you are determined to be really, really silly I refuse to descent to that level.
186

brownlie,

19/10/2008 20:56:03
238 FYI I meant "descend" - it's easy to admit to a mistake - you should try it!!
187

Florestan,

glasgow 19/10/2008 20:58:55
Once again all you silly tw*ts have risen to the bait. God, it's embarrassing to be Scottish.
188

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 21:03:57
229 sm753
That a few tobacco barons got richer than Cresus was no comfort to the families crammed into the insanitary Victorian slums of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee or those Lanarkshire miners turfed into the street to starve as Irish famine victims were imported to take their jobs, at a time when the grain warehouses were filled to bursting and Britannia had more money than she could spend.
My own grandfather was sold to a Livingston farm to labour there before WWI. Not mentioning those once proud highlanders left to starve on the margins of sheep country.

That would be the Union dividend then?
189

brownlie,

19/10/2008 21:05:48
240 sm753

As you seem to have the answer to everything you must be aware of who profits from the invasion of Iraq. It certainly not the indigent Iragis who have lost family, friends and homes.

I did not say the questions were silly but I refuse to indulge in "Yes, you did" "No, I didn't" school-boy exchanges.
190

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 21:06:35
242 Florestan
You silly tw#t you've risen to the bait, God how embarrassing?
191

dick thornton,

sotogrande 19/10/2008 21:11:34
Goodness me, by the response, you lot seem to be more moved by a trivial and jokey insult than you are by something serious like your banks going under! Maybe that is just why your banks have gone under!
Grow up and be have like adults!
192

brownlie,

19/10/2008 21:14:24
246 dick

What insult? If it was said in a satirical programme by a TV Historian it must be true!
193

livilion,

livingston 19/10/2008 21:16:17
246 dick thornton
Sorry but being too wee, too poor, and too stupid makes it impossible to have grown up politics in Scotland. Or so we are told.
194

danbob,

19/10/2008 21:24:01
213 Livilion# I have just spotted your post about the battle of Rosslyn glen. Yes indeed the facts are correct. This battle was more significant to scottish independence than Stirling bridge and Falkirk. Surpassed by Bannockburn only I would say. However most posters only mention Wallace at Stirling. Thats because they only know what they have learned from Braveheart.
195

Ananurhing,

19/10/2008 21:28:05
#242

That's one hell of a cringe you got there! Must be terribly embarassing for you!
196

Phil the Flooter,

19/10/2008 21:37:19
All these numpties saying the 'English dont have a cultural identity' I know you would like to believe that but you are showing a Parochial, narrow minded Village mentality..
This is 'No English Cultural identity' S**te is always wheeled out at some perceived slight from an Englishman- Grow a thicker skin. Starkys a Tw@t .
197

Keef Richards,

19/10/2008 21:52:29
Considering both William Wallace and Robert the Bruce....or Robert de Bruis, his real French name, weren't even Scots, does Scotland have any genuine national indigenous icons.?
198

Electric Hermit,

19/10/2008 22:11:24
254 Keef Richards, 19/10/2008 21:52:29
Considering both William Wallace and Robert the Bruce....or Robert de Bruis, his real French name, weren't even Scots, does Scotland have any genuine national indigenous icons.?



It is telling that you see "Scottish" as a racial term. Whereas I, and most nationalists of my acquaintance, think in more inclusive terms. As we see it, the term "Scottish" encompasses all who choose to make Scotland their home - to live, and work, and raise their families here. Those who elect to call Scotland their land are every bit as Scottish as those who acquire the label by accident of birth.
199

Electric Hermit,

19/10/2008 22:17:09
253 Phil the Flooter, 19/10/2008 21:37:19
All these numpties saying the 'English dont have a cultural identity'...

You might be surprised at how many of these "numpties" are English. Whether there is such a thing as an English cultural identity, and what form it might take, are matters which preoccupy the chattering classes south of the border far more than here in Scotland. Which, if you think about it, is pretty much what one would expect.
200

danbob,

19/10/2008 22:19:56
256# "Scottish" encompasses all who choose to make Scotland their home - to live, and work, and raise their families here. Those who elect to call Scotland their land are every bit as Scottish as those who acquire the label by accident of birth.

I don't doubt that you do. However reading some posts on here in recent days clearly a lot don't. The story of the gay palestinian asylum seeker springs to mind. Never in a newspaper forum have I read so much hate and bile.
201

JockMcCool,

19/10/2008 22:20:19
Hands up

Who likes the English

The Scots nope
The Irish nope
The Welsh not sure
The French nope
The Germans nope

could go on and on and on

202

brownlie,

19/10/2008 22:24:35
250 sm753

So the invasion was carried out for altruistic reasons and Bush/Blair and their associates will not get any benefit from it?

Blair will not be able to pay his hefty mortgages by being employed by those who benefit and Bush's business interests/associates will not benefit.

I'll catch up with you on this some other time.

In the meantime did you know that the moon was made of green cheese?
203

danbob,

19/10/2008 22:32:53
Electric Hermit 257#

Interesting points about cultural identity. I am from Glasgow at birth. My father was Glaswegian through and through, My mother was english. We moved south to Yorkshire soon after. However I was brought up with a strong scottish identity. My father was a proud scot and it rubbed off. If I had been a footballer who could have played for England or Scotland the blue jersey would have won. The strange thing is this. I feel now that Scotland is moving away from me. with the independence issue it's like it's dividing. Not so much England from Scotland, but Scotland from Scotland.
I bet a lot of people feel similar. I can now relate more to an english cultural identity than ever before.

204

Electric Hermit,

19/10/2008 22:40:53
261 danbob, 19/10/2008 22:32:53I can now relate more to an english cultural identity than ever before.



That much is clear from your opposition to the affirmation of nationhood which must surely be as much part of Scotland's cultural identity as England's.
205

danbob,

19/10/2008 22:49:23
262#
Scotland has identity. It has a stronger identity than England. Coming second only to the Irish in my view.
206

danbob,

19/10/2008 23:01:44
264# Beats men in skirts.
207

danbob,

19/10/2008 23:09:48
266# LOL.
208

Greens,

Scot living in England 19/10/2008 23:21:20
Sadly, every word Mr Starkey said is true.
209

,

20/10/2008 00:31:01
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210

Nellie,

Liverpool 20/10/2008 00:32:46
113 Draco Was a Wimp

LOL! Don't you be worrying about my stones, Draco. You forget, I am NOT a Scouser! (Just an honorary one!)

Besides, calling Scots silly names isn't quite the same as The Sun claiming a crowd of footballer supporters caused the deaths of some of their own, is it? But you're right - holding a grudge that long is hardly sensible, and certainly not as sensible as the anti-English twits that write in this blog some of whom still seem to resent the original union of Scotland and England...

As for Boris Johnson... No one takes Boris seriously, do they? (Save for some potty Londoners, of course.) So, you reckon the average Scouser was offended by silly Boris? I don't think you have any idea what the AVERAGE Scouser cared about Boris Johnson, just a few equally silly politicians and journalists trying to create a story where none existed.
211

Nellie,

Liverpool 20/10/2008 00:51:41
#262 Electric Hermit

Scottish cultural identity? Oh, really? Just which of the different cultures in Scotland is the real Scottish culture, then? Perhaps it's the West coast fiddle style, or may be the East? And what about the tunes themselves? They differ from where you live in Scotland. Perhaps it's the Glaswegian culture that's the real Scottish one, or maybe it's Edinburgh? Would it be the Catholic or Orange Protestants? And which version of the Gaelic language is the one and only Scottish one?

My point is that it is ridiculous to say there is A Scottish culture because Scotland is made up of many cultures, not to mention the new ones crossing the borders: Asian, Oriental, Eastern European, Hindu, Islamic, etc. To suggest otherwise is to fall right behind Starkey's foolish assumption that there is typical Scottish culture. There isn't, there never has been and there never will be.
212

Willie Macleod,

Wick 20/10/2008 00:57:25
#212 Jock Tamson Yes I think they should swap roles.

David Starkey on the drums.

Richard Starkey Historian as you say he gets out and about.
I know who I would like to talk to about history or anything else. And it's not David
213

Conan the Librarian™,

20/10/2008 01:14:48
272
Good Morning Willie, ye hippie pacifist ye ;-)
214

,

20/10/2008 02:38:49
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215

Willie Macleod,

Wick 20/10/2008 02:44:18
#273 Conan I am not a pacifist Faced with Fascism I would take up arms against any threat to our right to exist Against them who believe otherwise.

To my friend Conan Cheers
216

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 20/10/2008 05:47:58
I think he seems to have touched a nerve !

Scotland is certainly no friend of success - on the whole if there is some sort of business success story or somebody doing well in Sport (apart from Football) there seems to be screams of 'fatcat' or ' how did yon get the time of work to dae that?!' ....

There is more than just a little bit of self pity, envy and hopelessness in the Scots these days and rather than pick ourselves up off the ground (preferring the government to do that for us) and make ourselves part of the elite we snipe at achievers and try and bring them down to our level.

Scotland does need to change it's attitude toward success there is no doubt about it. It must drop the politics and philosophy of envy and celebrate others achievements ... because one day, if you work for it, success WILL be yours .... As a nation we just have to start believing in ourselves ...


217

,

20/10/2008 06:58:55
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218

Steve Ev,

Malta 20/10/2008 08:20:23
Can someone tell me if there realy is a move to return Mary Queen of Scots to Scotland ?
219

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry, Angus 20/10/2008 08:22:30
There is no doubt that there was a flourishing in Scotland after 1707 but that is only a consequence of
(a) a cessation of being pounded to a pulp by a nation ten times our size who would foray north to vent frustrations caused by failing on the continent or by its own (numerous) civil wars, and
(b) Scotland finally being allowed freer access to Europe is a way not permitted by its neighbour for the previous 500 years.

Scotland's flourishing was probably accelerated by the emerging English/British Empire but the fact that Scotland flourished indicated what was possible by Scotland when it didn't have a neighbour hostile to its growth.

There is plenty more pre-1707 evidence of Scottish cultural input into the European Enlightenment.
220

common sense voice,

20/10/2008 08:47:05
He's nothing but a bitchy old queen...... get back to your public lav. old man
221

Herne the Hunter,

All of Scotland 20/10/2008 08:59:25
Janis B 144
"Oh dear here we go ......Herne the hunter (120) & various other posters...."The English have no identifiable culture" So what does that mean ?... "Culture" .... Shortbread, tartan & bagpipes. I admit we've not much equivalent of those, some nice cakes tho' (Chelsea buns, Eccles cakes).

You said it Lady. Eccles cakes and Chelsea buns.

We can allow ourselves to be rather proud of the Scottish Enlightenment,but as D.F. Macdonald says in "the age of transition" the real reason behind the inventive,creative and philosophical Scot of the 19th century was that Scotland had 5 universities when England had 2.
These Universities were accessible by anyone who had a excellent report from his domine or teacher and a bag of oats and a barrel of herring to see him through the year,unlike the entry to Oxford or Cambridge where the elite,feudal and knightly system was still in place,100's of years after it had been done away with by the Declaration of Arbroath,and perhaps that's the difference. The ordinary Scots had freedom of thought and expression long before it existed for the villeins of England. I'd love to hear the TV historian's reply to that.
222

Tiger Earl,

cordoba 20/10/2008 10:48:06
If a country's success or failure is to be judged from its contributions to civilization and progress, Scotland with its history of great inventions stands alone. If the size of a country's population is not taken as a criterion then it might be joined by China and Germany, but certainly not by England
223

paulmort,

Quezon City 20/10/2008 10:49:30
When they wrote the words to the English national anthem
There will always be an England,They forgot to put in the words "AS LONG AS THERE IS A SCOTLAND"
224

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 20/10/2008 14:40:23
sm753
Presume the sm stands for Scotch Minnion after reading your usual Unionist rants,oh and you obviously didn't do too great at history whilst at school. The only conclusion i can come to is Unionist Fvd
225

Truely English,

20/10/2008 16:19:05
Salem 127
The most important thing about being English and central to being English is our precious English language. All other things flow from being able to speak English.
Many Scots understand this and that is what makes them British.
226

Stop buy Scotsman,

20/10/2008 17:31:11
The truth is David Starkey is bitter old man he doesn't get enough from his wife.
227

Stop buy Scotsman,

20/10/2008 17:38:31
#283:

Is TRUELY ENGLISH suggests that the American is British?
228

Truely English,

20/10/2008 17:43:17
285
The Americans are Anglos because they speak English. Another name for being British.
229

Bzzzz,

Edinburgh 20/10/2008 18:59:07
I had the misfortune of working with this brainless idiot, he is a complete and utter gobbler of the highest order, an absolute roarin big jessie.

England is COMPLETELY welcome to him. Big slavering mincer!
230

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

20/10/2008 19:34:29
274 Voldemort,Edinburgh 20/10/2008 05:47:58

Yea really must get oot o' ra capitil mair aften, as ah don't see the ordinary jock o' ra land as a soor faced twisted numptie, ra wie yea dae Voldermort.
Maist o' the pepul a know ur weel proud o' whit successes ra Scot's an thur ilk hae done, an no jist in ra past, bit also in ra noo, whit wie pepul lyke yon Duncan Bannatyne an Chris Hoy alang wi yon Jackie Stewart fella an no furgettin a' the Olympic medal winners frae 1908 in Paris tae 2008 in Peking.
Naw it's yersel that's the nane bileevir!!!

286 Truely English,20/10/2008 17:43:17

Aye an ur a Loon, (nae affence tae onyyin frae Huntly ;-))
231

"Scotty",

Usa 20/10/2008 20:01:16
No. 37........with your kind of hatred it's no wonder the world is in such a mess.
Starkey must be a miserable human being also.
232

Stop buy Scotsman,

20/10/2008 20:26:38
#286

That is great news!! I think the American will be delighted to call themseleves "British". Please can all the people in New Zeland, Canada, Republic of Ireland, Australia, The Bahamas, Jamaica etc to be called "British". Hang on,err what about India lot of them speak excellent English and same for most European, they too should be called "British". Oh boy Gordon Brown would be very proud to be the head of "British" and they should have the right to live in Great Britain because they speak English.
233

Gorach,

Dunadd 20/10/2008 23:16:52
Scotland adores failure?
Lets see,
Napier,Watt,Hume,Smith,Bell,Maxwell,Dunlop,Baird etc
A lot of great inventions including penicillin.
Doesn't sound like failure to me.
What else.. The Scots founded Canada,Australia and are running England... Not bad.That doesn't seem like failure either.

David Sharky? Isnt that the guy that said that Edward the first created the United Kingdom?
Clearly,whatever he says must be questioned.

Keep taking yer tablets Davey boy!
234

livilion,

livingston 21/10/2008 01:24:15
#252 Keef Richards,

Putting aside the obvious racist nature of your post, it behoves to point out that the Wallaces were an ancient Ayrshire/Strathclyde family going back to prehistory and Brythonic roots and that the Bruces' French connection is by no means certain with the Flemmish case having been made.

That been said the de Bruis, de Bruxes or whatever spelling(a fairly recent phenomena) you choose, arrived in Britain well in advance of the Norman Conquest of Danish-German, post-Roman England some three centuries before Robert the Bruce took the Throne in Scotland.

I'd say that, a direct lineage back to King David I of Scots, and a Gaelic speeking mother qualifies him as Scottish, even for the most rabid ethnicist.
235

livilion,

livingston 21/10/2008 01:24:57
speaking even
236

,

24/10/2008 02:06:03
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