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Iraqi PM: allies can leave now

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Published Date: 15 July 2007
GORDON Brown was last night under growing pressure to announce a full withdrawal of British troops from Basra after Iraq's prime minister declared that coalition troops could leave "any time they want".
Despite violence continuing to rage in Iraq, Nouri al-Maliki yesterday insisted his forces were in a position to take full responsibility for maintaining security, although he added the police and army needed more weapons. His comments were immediately seized on as providing the Prime Minister with a perfect pretext for dramatically accelerating the withdrawal of all UK forces from Iraq.

Brown was last night also urged to "cut and run" from Iraq in a hard-hitting report that concluded Britain had all but lost the war and should immediately begin planning for a "painful" withdrawal.

The Iraq Commission, which has taken evidence from senior politicians, soldiers and diplomats, said there was now no military solution to the problems of Iraq, and little hope of achieving the aim of a western-style democracy dreamed of by US President George Bush and former Prime Minister Tony Blair at the time of the 2003 war.

In a devastating conclusion, the cross-party group - led by Lord Ashdown, the man Brown unsuccessfully tried to bring into his government - said: "There are no easy options left in Iraq, only painful ones."

Britain still has 5,500 troops in Iraq, four years after Saddam Hussein was toppled. A total of 159 British soldiers have been killed in Iraq. Attacks have risen sharply this year, with British troops coming under fire 1,300 times in the six months to April, compared with 500 at the same time last year.

A White House assessment of progress in Iraq last week provoked calls among congressional critics of the Iraqi policy for a change in strategy, including a withdrawal of US forces. The Pentagon conceded that the Iraqi army had become more reliant on the US military, saying the number of Iraqi battalions able to operate on their own had dropped in recent months from 10 to six.

Iraqi foreign minister Hoshyar Zebari immediately warned of the threat of civil war and the government's collapse if the coalition left. But al-Maliki, talking to reporters in Baghdad yesterday, appeared to contradict his minister.

He said: "We say in full confidence that we are able, God willing, to take the responsibility completely in running the security file if the international forces withdraw at any time they want."

He added that Iraqi forces are "still in need of more weapons and rehabilitation" to be ready in the case of a withdrawal.

Liberal Democrat leader Menzies Campbell said it was time for Britain to pull out and leave the international community to help clear up. He said: "Any further training of Iraqi military and security forces must be done through the United Nations. It is to internationalise support for Iraq so that coalition forces can withdraw."

A spokesman for the First Minister Alex Salmond said: "These remarks certainly add to the calls for troops to be brought home."

One senior Labour supporter of the war said that the comments showed confusion in the Iraqi government. Ann Clwyd, the UK government's special human rights envoy to Iraq, said: "I'm astonished to hear this. It seems like a big dose of over-optimism. And they don't chime at all with what I have seen myself or with my conversation with the deputy prime minister just last night.

"He said that we should not withdraw our forces, and if we did so then al-Qaeda would be a greater threat, not only to Iraq but to the wider region too. Al-Maliki is right to say that some progress has been made, but there needs to be far more."

Meanwhile, the Iraq Commission, set up by think-tank the Foreign Policy Centre and Channel 4, presented itself as a British version of the Americans' Iraq Study Group, which last year called for a new approach and urgent action to stop "a slide towards chaos".

The commission report calls for British troops to immediately abandon offensive operations, such as patrolling the Iranian border and conducting operations against extremist groups. Instead they should focus solely on training the Iraqi security forces. Once the Iraqis are fully trained, all British troops should come home, regardless of the level of violence.

Sir Jeremy Greenstock, the former British Special Representative in Iraq, told the commission: "We thought we were going to achieve something good; that has not happened. It's actually time for a change."

He said British diplomatic efforts should now focus on getting international action to prevent Iraq being torn apart by civil war and becoming a base for al-Qaeda terrorists.

The commission was led by a cross-party group of senior peers - the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown, the former Tory defence secretary Tom King and the former Labour Cabinet minister Margaret Jay - and also included former Blairite minister Stephen Twigg, ex-director general of MI5 Sir Patrick Walker, and ex-UK diplomat Sir Paul Lever.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 14 July 2007 11:34 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: War in Iraq , Iraq
 
1

The Strategist,

15/07/2007 01:01:45

So... Home by Christmas then?

2

Corbett T Hunckers,

Leven beach 15/07/2007 01:11:48

What are we waiting for....lets go!!!

Seriously, he doesn't mean that, because he will be ' broon bread' the day after!!!!:( But he just might be very brave!!! Or deluded!!!

3

sandy,

USA..Fred Dalton Thompson/ '08 15/07/2007 01:31:33

maybe Maliki is just getting tired of our wimpy leftist terrorist supporting Congress saying daily 'the Iraqi gov't isn't working"...bring our troops home...the war is lost...that's their new mantra, don't ya know!!!

i think Iran is behind that statement.....

4

Lynne,

USA 15/07/2007 02:03:27

Sandy..Me too!!! I wouldn't put it past them... But ya gotta admit this guy is weak.

5

Guga II,

Rockall 15/07/2007 02:03:46

Broon should get our troop home instantly. Nouri al-Maliki has given him a face saving solution.

Sandy, this war was lost before it began. Not only was it an illegal war, and Bliar, Bush and Howard, along with their cabinets, were, and are war criminals, but it is total stupidity to think that so-called "Western values" can be imposed on other countries and other cultures.

Bush may think, like Nixon, that if you "get them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"; that didn't work in Vietnam, and it is not going to work in Iraq. The actions, and war crimes, of American troops on the ground in Iraq, along with that of the 120,000 or so mercenaries employed by the Americans, will only intensify the hatred and contempt most of the Iraqis have for the Americans.

Iran isn't behind any statement or mantra, it is the increasing number of Americans who realise that Bush is dragging America into the mire and destroying your country's reputation at home and abroad.

6

Jason,

Japan 15/07/2007 02:07:02

"We'll stay as long as the Iraqi government wants us."

7

Colin P,

15/07/2007 02:10:35

I don't think Westminster should think twice here. We can take a hint, even such an obvious one.
I only hope our boys have a nice parade when they come home, as we need to let them know we supported them, but not the war. They cannot be allowed to be forgotten.

8

,

15/07/2007 02:25:19
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9

,

15/07/2007 02:28:24
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10

daveserviceman,

Edinburgh 15/07/2007 02:45:20

if iraq collapses then noone in the west would get oil from the middle east as it would be on big war zone
iran turkey saudi arabia and syria all fighting over the spoils of iraq. and israel throwing a few atomic bombs around this would extend then to the rest of the midd east and north africa
happy hunting folks

11

,

15/07/2007 02:51:15
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12

Boy-Wonder,

15/07/2007 03:07:01

12. Guga II, Rockall

Don't be so rude, just admit you're wrong.

13

Boy-Wonder,

Guga II is stupid 15/07/2007 03:13:39

President Nixon - Jan 23rd, 1973

Good evening. I have asked for this radio and television time tonight for the purpose of announcing that we today have concluded an agreement to end the war and bring peace with honor in Vietnam and in Southeast Asia.

The following statement is being issued at this moment in Washington and Hanoi:


At 12:30 Paris time today [Tuesday], January 23, 1973, the Agreement on Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam was initialed by Dr. Henry Kissinger on behalf of the United States, and Special Adviser Le Duc Tho on behalf of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.
The agreement will be formally signed by the parties participating in the Paris Conference on Vietnam on January 27, 1973, at the International Conference Center in Paris.

The cease-fire will take effect at 2400 Greenwich Mean Time, January 27, 1973. The United States and the Democratic Republic of Vietnam express the hope that this agreement will insure stable peace in Vietnam and contribute to the preservation of lasting peace in Indochina and Southeast Asia.


That concludes the formal statement.
Throughout the years of negotiations, we have insisted on peace with honor. In my addresses to the Nation from this room of January 25 and May 8, [1972] I set forth the goals that we considered essential for peace with honor.

In the settlement that has now been agreed to, all the conditions that I laid down then have been met. A cease-fire, internationally supervised, will begin at 7 p.m., this Saturday, January 27, Washington time. Within 60 days from this Saturday, all Americans held prisoners of war throughout Indochina will be released. There will be the fullest possible accounting for all of those who are missing in action.

14

Boy-Wonder,

Guga II is stupid 15/07/2007 03:14:27

During the same 60-day period, all American forces will be withdrawn from South Vietnam.

The people of South Vietnam have been guaranteed the right to determine their own future, without outside interference.

By joint agreement, the full text of the agreement and the protocols to carry it out, will be issued tomorrow.

Throughout these negotiations we have been in the closest consultation with President Thieu and other representatives of the Republic of Vietnam. This settlement meets the goals and has the full support of President Thieu and the Government of the Republic of Vietnam, as well as that of our other allies who are affected.

The United States will continue to recognize the Government of the Republic of Vietnam as the sole legitimate government of South Vietnam.

We shall continue to aid South Vietnam within the terms of the agreement and we shall support efforts by the people of South Vietnam to settle their problems peacefully among themselves.

We must recognize that ending the war is only the first step toward building the peace. All parties must now see to it that this is a peace that lasts, and also a peace that heals, and a peace that not only ends the war in Southeast Asia, but contributes to the prospects of peace in the whole world.

This will mean that the terms of the agreement must be scrupulously adhered to. We shall do everything the agreement requires of us and we shall expect the other parties to do everything it requires of them. We shall also expect other interested nations to help insure that the agreement is carried out and peace is maintained.

As this long and very difficult war ends, I would like to address a few special words to each of those who have been parties in the conflict.

First, to the people and Government of South Vietnam: By your courage, by your sacrifice, you have won the precious right to determine your own future and you have developed the strength to defe

15

Boy-Wonder,

Guga II is stupid 15/07/2007 03:14:48

The important thing was not to talk about peace, but to get peace and to get the right kind of peace. This we have done.

Now that we have achieved an honorable agreement, let us be proud that America did not settle for a peace that would have betrayed our allies, that would have abandoned our prisoners of war, or that would have ended the war for us but would have continued the war for the 50 million people of Indochina. Let us be proud of the 2 1/2 million young Americans who served in Vietnam, who served with honor and distinction in one of the most selfless enterprises in the history of nations. And let us be proud of those who sacrificed, who gave their lives so that the people of South Vietnam might live in freedom and so that the world might live in peace.

In particular, I would like to say a word to some of the bravest people I have ever met-the wives, the children, the families of our prisoners of war and the missing in action. When others called on us to settle on any terms, you had the courage to stand for the right kind of peace so that those who died and those who suffered would not have died and suffered in vain, and so that, where this generation knew war, the next generation would know peace. Nothing means more to me at this moment than the fact that your long vigil is coming to an end.

Just yesterday, a great American, who once occupied this office, died. In his life President [Lyndon B.] Johnson endured the vilification of those who sought to portray him as a man of war. But there was nothing he cared about more deeply than achieving a lasting peace in the world.

I remember the last time I talked with him. It was just the day after New Year's. He spoke then of his concern with bringing peace, with making it the right kind of peace, and I was grateful that he once again expressed his support for my efforts to gain such a peace. No one would have welcomed this peace more than he.

And I know he would join me in ask

16

Guga II,

Rockall 15/07/2007 03:21:51

#13 Boy Wonder. Listen oh cretinous wonder, your verbiage is irrelevant. The fact remains that Nixon made the statement I quoted at #5.

17

Verite,

Paris 15/07/2007 03:23:19

As I mentioned 2 months ago UK troops have to be out before the attack on Iran...possibly next month.. this is why they are camping out at the airport.
This will likely be an Isreali bombing raid (as cleared last week by USUK) and after Iran retaliates, US will attack. Basra will be a US target as it will quickly be over-run by iranian land forces.
The US doubled its air strike capacity in Iraq over the last year.
Timing is also linked with the growing unpoularity of the USUK genocide and with the Vice Duck! Cheney, his close associates and many members of the arms/oil cartel facing criminal charges.... together with the original profits surge motive of keeping Iraqi oil in the ground...as was agreed by IRAQ AND THE CARTEL FOR THE LAST 25 YEARS, until some time after Saddam was installed by the US.. he changed his mind.

18

,

15/07/2007 04:09:22
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19

Guga II,

Rockall 15/07/2007 04:22:08

#19 Away back to your comic books.

Only someone with a comic book mentality would make statements about bombing people back to the middle ages.

20

,

15/07/2007 04:39:14
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21

Leon,

Hong Kong 15/07/2007 05:04:48

number 19

Kill them all your answer to everything. Your usual Islamophobic diatribes - as usual lacking any rational analysis of any given situation.

tow the answer is given get the troops out now!

By the way how’s your Chinese wife?

22

Seeking truth,

Edinburgh 15/07/2007 05:39:39

3 and 4

Total mince as usual Malky boy is a US flunky not Irans. The Neonuts have been looking for a face saving way out for some time now this is the start of it. Its comming up to election time in the US its no coincidence.
Your house of cards is starting to fall and not before time.

23

matthew in davao,

philippines 15/07/2007 05:52:41

just wondering. how many of these guys who are so gung ho for this war have ever been in a war. we know that dubya was a draft dodger and t. bliar never faced any shot and s***. i always notice that its the guys who have never "been there" who want to kill other people. yes i have participated in four wars. i am scots with u.s. citizenship. so i feel i have the right to speak out on this subject.

24

American,

USA 15/07/2007 06:14:36

#9-Dr Who- "now that we have created organised extreme armies of fanatics"- What? I thought bin laden did that about a decade ago? And I thought al qeada zarqawis mission in iraq (after he left afghanistan) was to train militants?

25

American,

USA 15/07/2007 06:18:30

#18-Veritile-Not to worry. You know your country wont be involved.

26

martin, Surrey,

Godalming, Surrey 15/07/2007 06:21:10

put the poloticians in the front line, make them serve in the wars that they start, would bring an end to war in no time.

27

williamx,

Delta, Canada 15/07/2007 06:37:16

Declare victory and retreat. What's another big lie anyway

28

Cadgers,

Perth 15/07/2007 06:47:42

#21 You've been trolled Boy Wonder!

#5 "Sandy, this war was lost before it began"...never a truer word Guga

Brown should grab those words of Al-Maliki and get the troops out.

29

American,

USA 15/07/2007 06:56:18

#24-Matthew- I just read -4 Muslim groups in southern Philippines warned against retaliation for the beheading of 10 marines- I hope you're not stationed there.

30

nell from falkirk,

15/07/2007 07:29:33

#18 I think Verite is right, and that scenario is chillingly accurate.
I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the papers here, but Turkey is massing troops on the Iraqi border. 200,000 have been moved in that last few weeks, and many more were already there with full armament ad tanks before that.
Now either the Turkish army is having a picnic, or it's ready to walk into North Irag.
And that couldn't happen without the full agreement of the US.
So you have to reckon that a carve-up has been all arranged, and they're throwing North Iraq and the Kurds to the wolves, so that the US can now enter Iran.
We thought the current illegal war was a bloodbath, but it's looking increasingly as though it's just the beginning.

31

GD,

Glasgow 15/07/2007 07:30:51

Good, they should get the troops out immediately whilst they have the chance.
All of the US and UK resources can never win this war, even if it lasts a hundred years.

32

nell from falkirk,

15/07/2007 07:38:17

#26 American (from the safety of a bunker beneath the White House, no doubt).
No, France isn't involved, for the very good reason that Jacques Chirac and Gerhardt Schroeder used their brains, and refused to get Europe involved in what was obviously going to become a quagmire.

Had Bliar not been so busy putting his head up Bush's rear, Britain would have been where she should be, standing fair and square alongside the rest of Europe trying to prevent the worst excesses of the US' iniquitous foreign policy.

That was what the people of this country wanted - vanishingly few wanted any part of a illegal and patently obviously unwinnable war, but Tony was so intent on being Dubya's "friend" that he wouldn't listen to his own electorate.

The result is now a bloodbath, a country in ruins, upwards of half a million dead, UK and US troops bogged down in a war they never could have hoped to win, the entire Middle East destabilised.

Which was EXACTLY what Messrs Chirac & Schroeder, not to mention Britain's own Foreign Office, warned Bush & Bliar would happen.

33

nell from falkirk,

15/07/2007 07:43:49

#19 Gandalf - since "bombing them back to the middle ages" (I can't believe anybody really said that!) is your solution to terrorists, in the wake of the foiled ETA bomb plot the other day, are you now also going to include Spain in your masterful carpet bombing plan?

34

howyoudoingboy;,

15/07/2007 07:45:14

guga II


oh dear you got some spanking today.And don't you ever sleep or are you in another time zone not in the U.K. you always post through the night ...... umm?

#21 I wonder boy wonder who is telling the truth. My avatar has been hijacked so many tines i have begin to believe howyoudoingboy is a tart.
And can't be trusted on his own.

But then that's all part of the game and I don't whinge.

35

Clarindia,

Outside the tent... 15/07/2007 08:01:09

I presume that the Iraqi - sorry, US oil - situation and new US military base sites have been established now to enable the thieving of others resources to continue shoring up the excess polluting requirements of the USA.

What a terrifying and inhuman future for 'ordinary' Iraqis who were once considered to be the leading secular and western-friendly nation before Saddam with his puffed-up sense of invincibilty, claimed WMD = 'weapons of mystifying delusion', and brought the exploitive opportunity to grab the oil to a head. Saddam was, swinging at the end of a rope before he could let any incriminating evidence out in The Hague, where he ought to have been tried and where Blair & Bush etc. will unfortunately never be held to answer their deplorable record of killing. I'm no apologist or leftie-appeaser, far from it, but I am intolerate of lies and the unnecessary deaths and injuries of our superb troops now needed at home to protect us from Blair's political stupidity.

36

howyoudoingboy;,

15/07/2007 08:24:02

#24matthew in davao

I resent your draft dodger insult to president George W. Bush.
It is well documented he in fact flew many combat missions over the extremely dangerous airspace of Texas. And i am sure he did the same in
Alabama even if there is no evidence to Substantiate this.

And i should add just because Dick cheney asked for and received five deferments, four because he was a student and one for being a new father.(a very dangerous occupation)

does not lead to the erroneous conclusion these men? were chicken hawks themselves but ready to place other brave citizens into harm's way.

err I err I think???

37

Clarindia,

Outside the tent... 15/07/2007 08:28:31

#18 Verite #32 #34 Nell - well noted

By the way - where was/is The Honourable Opposition in Westminster in all this? Why is our media not reporting more about the dismembering land-grab intentions of surrounding nations and militia groupings. If the great professional mass, experience and fire-power coalition of the US and UK etc cannot quell or root out the insurgency activators - what hope a part-trained Iraqi 'army' and 'police' force?

38

Youssuf Al Beendoonrapub,

15/07/2007 08:33:25

The party's over it's time to call it a day.

So Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) comes to an end, just make sure that before you leave you rip up all those oil concessions the interim Iraqi government 'handed' to Haliburton et al.

39

Youssuf Al Beendoonrapub,

15/07/2007 08:42:27

#19

'It is time that our politicians disregared these mediocre left wing cowards and treated islam and it's band of murderers they way it deserves...bomb it back into the middle ages, no mattter what the left wing media and it's band of medicorities will say.'

Now read from this perspective.

It is time that our politicians disregared these mediocre righ wing cowards and treated christianity and it's band of murderers they way it deserves...bomb it back into the middle ages, no mattter what the right wing media and it's band of medicorities will say.

40

Mikey,

15/07/2007 08:56:22

It's funny reading all pro war pieces. They all seem to come from Americans. These are the people who watch Fox News and think it's gospel!

Even funnier is the fact that if their president had been a Democrat, they'd be screaming and hollering like the pigs they are, dying to get home.

I know that the US is an immigrant state, but by the sound of these people, they even took in the losers of WWII. How else can on explain the rabid anti semitism?

41

howyoudoingboy;,

15/07/2007 09:01:01

#41youdooppdopupydo

or how about the let's not bomb anybody perspective and learn to live in peace perspective.

that's from the christian and Muslim wing who do not want to die, But just lead peaceful lives.

you know the unrepresented peaceful majority perspective

42

Youssuf Al Beendoonrapub,

15/07/2007 09:05:33

#43 Amen and Insha'Allah to that howdaydoodee.

43

morris,

Edinburgh 15/07/2007 09:06:42

34

That sounds pretty accurate to me Nell.
I think you are wasting your time though,there are people who are so entrenched in the Labour Party (and what Blair claimed) that they will support Labour declared policy ,or claims even when they are physically or chronologically impossible and should be known therefore to be false.
I am never amazed by the number of Labour activists who think that the (pre Blair non Tory)Labour Party still exists !
They have a membership and that means Blair has not cloned another Tory party!

They seriously want us to elect them into government!
Thank God most of Scotland is beginning to waken up!
THERE IS NO LABOUR PARTY ! IT WAS BURIED the same day as the late John Smith .
Gordon Broon may have a temporary revival down south ,but it wont last.Anybody who thinks that replacing the Labour PM with the Labour Chancellor signals a new era is an opinion which does not count!

Browns only chance is an early election( before the numpties realise its the same government as before),and they make a fool of themselves if they think otherwise .
Brown might just scrape home if he goes now,but how long he will last is very much open to debate.
Either way Labour are washed up long term.YOu cannot survive forever being two different agendas north and south of the border.
Scotland is more left wing orientated than our Southern neighbour and the UK will eventually snap! I think its already gone too far to be saved now(plus I dont want to save it anyway).

44

The laird.,

leadhills. 15/07/2007 09:08:41

all the brittish troups out immediately,
our prime minister A/Salmond should have a meeting with hen broon to insist that our troups are returned home urgently as they are more needed at home to help the police to protect our own people in the wake of the recent incident at glw airport a direct result of the UK involvement in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN as all the forces within IRAQ are anly exasperating the current situation there and the majority of the people in the middle east dont want them there in the first place.

45

howyoudoingboy;,

15/07/2007 09:14:45

#42 mikey

because it tells them in the bible the messiah will only return if there is a Israel composed of Jewish people's


I remember a visit to the US by then Prime Minister Yitzak Shamir in the early 1990's to encourage US support for Israel. His appearances were primarily before Evangelical Christian groups since mainline Christianity as represented by the World Council of Churches had already become decidedly pro Arab. As the mainstream denominations coalesced around their "replacement theology" wherein the church inherited all of God's promises to Israel, having a Jewish nation around was theologically embarrassing. Dislike for Israel was a natural response because its presence is too blatant a reminder that God meant what He said about Israel in the Bible. (And if He meant what He said about Israel, maybe He meant what He said about other things as well.)

46

bill1,

15/07/2007 09:18:21

A red herring if there ever was one!

We can leave if al-Maliki gets a private army, otherwise he and his fellow puppets would be instant toast.

We are not going to leave anyway, not when all the objectives of the invasion have been realised.

The oil and the territory is secured, the military bases are in place for further territorial gains, the reconstruction projects are making a lot of money for the Bush gangsters at the expense of the US taxpayers, Israel's enemies are subdued, and domination of the Middle East is no longer a dream.

The UK troops are needed to do the hard stuff, like controlling Basra and the south to keep the oil outlet secure and defend against possible Iranian action. They're needed in Afghanistan as well.

Israel's air force is raring to go to neutralise Iran and anywhere else that poses a threat to its colonisation plans.

Turkey has an entire army group ready to move into Kurdish Iran and seize the oilfields at the drop of a hat.

The US Carrier fleets are in place in the Gulf.

Russia is ready to do a deal to share control of Central Asia and the Caspian Basin.

NATO is pouring more resources into Afghanistan.

India will deal with Pakistan if the extremists take over.

Peace Envoy Blair is ready to spread more freedom and democracy like he has helped to do already in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine.

We're not leaving.

47

Pollock Bain,

15/07/2007 09:33:59

Against the war, but supportive of the troops? It's very difficult from that position to see how the troops can be withdrawn quickly, with no obvious acheivement to celebrate whatsoever. The Black Watch, both as a regiment and as a battalion of the RRS is still very much a locally based, family affair. And look at all the soldiers from that regiment who come from former mining communities in West and Central Fife - what precisely are we going to do fo them and for their families, for their whole communities, when we pull out leaving behind well trained and well infiltrated waring factions? And still no reliable water and electricity supply, still no sufficient hospital and basic medical services, still no decent educational infrastructure?

If we are certain we can acheive nothing tangible by keeping troops there, we should pull out, of course. But we should prepare to put something in place to deal with the social and psychological aftermath here.

48

Pollock Bain,

Kinross 15/07/2007 09:35:06

sorry, warring, not waring!

49

English Bob,

15/07/2007 09:56:13

As ever they were - lions led by asses.

Brink 'em home, full enquiry.

Prosecute to the hilt.

50

Let's have the truth,

15/07/2007 09:58:51

"Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki has declared that coalition troops could leave "any time they want".

......So what's new? Has he been holding coalition troops captive until now?

51

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15/07/2007 10:15:09
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52

Boy Wonder II,

15/07/2007 10:24:53

23. Seeking truth, Edinburgh

You must be related to Djookers the Troll, aka Mine's an 80 Bob. You have the same uneducated way about you in the way you try to harass others.

If I did not know any better I’d say you were the same pathetic little man (Djookers) whose main goal is to agree with some of the other liberal posters here but is to dumb for original thought so you feel your other purpose here is to antagonize intelligent posters.

53

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15/07/2007 10:34:00
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54

Jim P,

15/07/2007 10:39:14

#27 martin, Surrey

"poloticians in the front line, make them serve in the wars that they start, would bring an end to war in no time"

The military play a bit part in this affair - lives thrown away for nothing. The arms manufacturers are the winners every time, along with their financiers and bankers.

55

Seeking truth,

Edinburgh 15/07/2007 10:39:45

54 Troll

Ok why dont you sit tight now wait for me to bite and prepare your answer. Hold yer breath here it comes.

56

Wally,

(By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 10:44:57

HowYoudoingBoy in 47:

I take issue with your characterization of the World Council of churches denominations as being anti-Israel or pro-arab. Those denominations see both the arabs & israelis as being equally valuable and do not favor either one. but as Israel is actively persecuting Palestine they are naturally sympathetic to the Palestinians in that conflict.

and I also take issue with your characterization of Old Testament statements about Israel being authoritative to christians. christians should pay attention to the New Testament and especially jesus' statements on this issue. The New Testament said several times including in Jesus' words that the old covenant involving a particular tribe of people was no longer valid and that instead all of the people worldwide could believe in god and that those who did believe in god were god's chosen people.

This is stated several times in the New Testament. I guess some people today are 'pre-New testament' christians. that's their business if that's what they choose. but the WCC attitude is well founded in christian thinking & scripture.

57

,

15/07/2007 10:48:14
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58

Fenland Farmer,

Cromwell's England 15/07/2007 10:49:46

We have between 5000-6000 troops in Iraq. If the various tribes that we are "protecting" decide to call time on us backed indirectly by Iran then Custer's last stand is going to look like a picnic. We would have to rely on the USA to get us out.
I believe that Paddy Ashdown & Co have put a few suggestions on the table.
Time to listen.

59

,

15/07/2007 10:53:04
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60

Wally,

(By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 10:54:27

regarding the article - for years all opinion polls taken of Iraqis have shown that they want us out ASAP, anywhere from 70% of them up to 99% - that is what the opinion polls have shown.

Even the elected leaders of Iraq have voted before on a resolution to ask the US to leave and they voted 'yes' on the resolution, formally asking the US to leave.

The only Iraqis who don't want us to leave are the ones who work for the US or UK military or infrastructure. Their economy is very bad. You know it wasn't like that until after the invasion. People say we should stay to help them to solve the violence problem and to provide an infrastructure. They did not have this violence problem before the invasion. They did not have the infrastructure problem before the invasion. So why is it logical that us staying there will help them to solve these problems.

A lot of people don't understand. A large portion of the Iraqis don't generally have electricity or even running water. It wasn't like that before.

Please don't think that these bad things have happened in Iraq merely by coincidence after the US/UK invasion and during the occupation. Please don't think that it isn't by design. Because it is.

Saddam was in power for almost 25 years and in all that time he didn't achieve anywhere near the sum total of violence that the Iraqis have sufferred since the invasion. and they didn't have these infrastructure problems under Saddam.

Iraq is being subjugated and made an example of. The US is not intending to leave.

61

Ian Menzies,

15/07/2007 10:59:04

.

62

Ken Rogers,

Wivenhoe, Essex. UK. 15/07/2007 10:59:51

This war is a enormous tragedy to the Iraqi people and with a serious knock on effect worldwide encouraging 'terrorism' . The cost of human suffering in Iraq is horrendous.

The UK became involved with this unjustifiable war with the USA due to our then Prime Minister Tony Blair dicision. Others in parliament must share some resonsibility for not having the courage to stand up and ask questions and cross examine those who agreed with the Prime Minister.

I am deeply saddened at this lack of courage to ask questions on such an important issue. We as UK citizens have now a enormous responsibility to assist the Iraqi in every possible way and our politicians must clearly apologise - then it takes courage to say 'I am sorry I was wrong'!

Has our new Prime Minister Gordan Brown the guts to say 'We got it wrong - we failed the Iraqi people and our nation?

Members of parliament who failed their country and the Iraqi people should donate part of their wages and part of their more than their adequate pension to provide adequate medical supplies and treatment and assit in the rebuilding of Iraq.

Ken Rogers . MA (Criminology/sociology) Fellow Institute International Security.

I appreciate there were people such as Ken Clarke Q.C. Conservative the late Robin Cook and Clare Short of Labour who are always honest and should have been listened to. Also not forgetting those wonderful students at Essex University and elsewhere.

63

livilion,

livingston 15/07/2007 11:02:47

What do we learn from history?
Not a lot it seems.

Substitute Bush for Nixon and Iraq for Vietnam etc and see how familiar it looks:


""...Nixon and Kissinger quickly agreed upon two premises about American policy in Vietnam.

First, the war in Vietnam was not "winnable" in any conventional sense of the term.

Public opinion would tolerate neither an escalation nor the continuation of a status quo that included over 1,000 killed per month.

Second, a unilateral withdrawal was not feasible because the political costs, both domestic and international, were unacceptable.

Withdrawal would dissolve Nixon's political base at home and, as Kissinger continually emphasized, undermine American credibility abroad.

Apart from the military situation in Vietnam, the political problem confronting President Nixon was complex.
How could Nixon "buy time" to achieve his understanding of "peace with honor" without succumbing to Lyndon Johnson's fate of eroding public support?

The history of his first administration reveals that Nixon's strategy consisted of four components:

(1) Vietnamization
First, it was necessary to reduce American casualty rates and the number of combat troops in Vietnam.
To this end, Nixon defined his policy as "Vietnamization" -- the idea that South Vietnamese would gradually assume a greater combat role and ultimately eliminate the need for American ground forces.

Because the US would not withdraw abrubtly, the policy of Vietnamization would require time.
The domestic political objective was to convince the public that the Army of South Vietnam could eventually handle the war on their own.

(2) The "Politics of Polarization"
To buy time, Nixon had to build a larger and more reliable base of support within the American public.
His popular vote margin in the 1968 election was razor th

64

Wally,

(By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 11:17:57

http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/2853.cfm

read this article about mercenaries being developed for use. The US funds more people in Iraq as contractors than as actual US military forces. and we need to remember something like 15% of the actual US forces who die in Iraq are not US citizens. The US has recruiting offices in Mexico, central & south America to lure people into the US military.

There used to be a common understanding that using mercenaries in this manner was a very bad thing. and that understanding is slipping away from any dominant consensus.

65

Boy Wonder,

15/07/2007 11:27:02

It seems I'm not only being Trolled (AGAIN!!) my comment at #21 has been deleted!

Bad Show editors! Get rid of the TROLLS not the regulars!

Boy-Wonder and Boy Wonder II are IDENTITY THIEVES afraid to post under a pseudonym of their own devising!

66

tomfrom66,

Blackpool, UK 15/07/2007 11:49:34

#9 Good on you, Dr Who!

#8 This might bring you up to speed:

http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article2768261.ece

67

bill1,

15/07/2007 12:03:40

69. Tom MacFarlane

Thanks Tom, good link!

68

Aoda,

Pennylvania Wilds 15/07/2007 12:17:08

#10 Gauga II, you are wrong. When the French pulled Vietnam was divided at the peace talks and it was President Eisenhower that guaranteed South Vietnam untill the elections. Kennedy was mostly on the fence and he was assinated before we really found out what his intentions were, but we already had advisors there. It was Johnson with his so called "Tonken Gulf" that put our troops in "Nam WITH Cogress's blessing. Now Johnson admired F. D. R. and wanted to be like him. Hense his civil rights and the Vietnam War. He wanted guns and butter but he used our retirement fund, Social Security Trust Fund to pay for it. By execuative order he trasferred it to the geeral fund and it has been there since. Nixon was the president that pulled out our troops out. Under pressue of the democrates and the main media.

The democrates and media is usig the same tatics and it isn't new and wasn't new in the "Nam War either. Try looking at the Civil War.

The democrates wanted an end to that war and used the same tatics then as they did in the Vietnam War and now in the Iragui War. Too many life's lost, too costly, too long, can't win. It was very doubtful that Lincoln could be relected but what saved the election for him was that Sherman took Atlanta.

What happened in Iraq will be argued for many a year. I thik that with Saddam's defiance of the UN resolutions and his past performance we were justified in going in. As for WMDs, almost all coutries believed that he either had them or was planning to build them. Could we take a chance?
Europe took a chance once before and while peace was promised, Europe was coming under and finally did come under the boot heels of a dictator. The result was the bloodiest, most inhuman war in history. After that we had fifty years of confrontation and half of Europe under an other dictator regime.

First of all Bush went to Congress and they gave him the authority to inva

69

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 15/07/2007 12:21:52

The Irish government and 87% of the people living on the island of Ireland do not want the British government or the British army interfering in the affairs of their country. When can we expect them to leave then?

70

Aoda,

Pennylvania Wilds 15/07/2007 12:25:15

(cont), There are three major sections if Iraq, the Kurds, which wants independance, the Shittes that are the majority and the Sunni's that had the power and would like it back. Also the terrorist was not mentioned untill just recently.

Bush did not secure the borders, didnot have any plan to keep civil order and no plan to keep the peace between the tribes.

Now they want us to pull out regardless of the reason, we will be obliged to do so and the results will come and they will be bloody.

71

ex-serviceman,

Glasgow 15/07/2007 12:31:06

at the rate the squaddies are going AWOL it won't be long before all the troops are home anyway.

72

livilion,

livilion 15/07/2007 12:35:23

72. Aoda, Pennylvania Wilds
>>>Kennedy was mostly on the fence and he was assinated before we really found out what his intentions were<<<

Jeez, and I thought he'd been shot in the head.
Talk about mans' inhumanity?

73

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 12:42:01

http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2F...

here's a story about a US soldier who was scheduled to go back a 2'nd time to Iraq. But he didn't want to go. So he hired a hit-man to shoot him in the leg.

74

grannyburns.,

SCOTLAND. 15/07/2007 12:46:37

LETS HOPE BROWN SEES THIS AS A WAY OUT OF THIS MESS.

GET OUR REGIMENTS HOME AND DOING THE JOB THESE MEN ENLISTED TO DO -- PROTECT OUR OWN SHORES. IRAQ WAS NEVER A THREAT TO US -- AT LEAST NOT IN THE WAY OUR FUHRER - MR BLAIR - WOULD HAVE HAD US BELIEVE.

THESE SOLDIERS COULD THEN HELP THE POLICE TO ROUTE OUT THE TERRORISTS WHO ARE LIVING AMONGST US.

I AM ONLY SORRY FOR ALL THE YOUNG MEN AND INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES OVER THESE PAST YEARS.

75

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 12:47:16

shortly before president Kennedy's death he had developed plans to bring troops home from Vietnam. There were many things that Kennedy did that opposed strongly the agenda of the people that rule us. this was only one among many.

the Americans tried so hard to build a nation where they the people were sovereign and not some king or ruler. and the Americans failed.

76

sandy,

USA, war groupie 15/07/2007 12:53:12

#40, 41--youssuf---please grow up..your stuck on stupid...

77

,

15/07/2007 13:02:12
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78

lambrettforever,

glasgow 15/07/2007 13:04:40

Perhaps if we hadnt armed and effectively appointed shia extremists beholden to militias and with strong ties to iran, in the majority of govt posts in Iraq then George and Gordon might find this convenient

Sad truth is we know full well whats going to happen in Iraq the minute after we pull out AND whos going to be (deservedly) judged responsible for having set that whole sorry mess in motion.

Any thought of actualy being able to change the ineviable is long gone. but rather than face up to it our govt and the US administration are using the lives of our troops and innocent iraqis to delay the day they have to finally admit it.

79

livilion,

livilion 15/07/2007 13:05:46

72. Aoda, Pennylvania Wilds
>>>So Bush acted with the authority of Congress, that makes it a legal war. As for the UN, all they did was pass worthless resolutions.<<<

Mebbe we need to clear up a wee misconception or two here.

The international community of nations recognises the UN as the ultimate arbiter of international law, not the USA.

Because the US Senate gave Dubya the green light to invade Iraq did not make it legal.

I'm sure the Nazis in 1930's Germany gave Hitler similar authority to invade Europe.(the 1941-46 war to you)

Suppose the Ayatolas in Iran pass a law giving jehadis the green light to crash airliners into American public buildings presumably you'd 'say fair enough, that's democracy for you'.

80

,

15/07/2007 13:08:05
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81

livilion,

livilion 15/07/2007 13:12:31

81. John Edwards, Orange County

Let's hear your opinion when John_Edwards, Orange County comes online and starts badmouthing the good ole US of A.

82

,

15/07/2007 13:12:57
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83

howyoudoingboy;,

15/07/2007 13:16:37

#58 wally

"I take issue"

The great tribulation

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Luke 21:20-24).

and then the rapture


"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thes. 4:16-17).

84

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 13:20:28

on this thread we have Boy Wonder, Boy-Wonder & Boy Wonder II. but John edwards in 81 tells us that these are not similar names and nobody's playing games with names. And John edwards took his name I think from the presidential candidate before he said this.

I noticed that the pro-war people generally don't have any substance.

rah rah sis-boom-bah let's kill muslims!! that's about the extent of their thinking. and they can't tolerate any examination of the things that the war-makers have done in the past. if we do that, then that will detract from war-cheers and we can't have that.

85

EzeeDrone,

Made in Scotland 15/07/2007 13:28:20

59. Boy Wonder

Who was the troll that deleted your non-offensive comment?

It only spelled out all the similarities between Djookers & the poster "Seeking truth" and that both never have original thoughts.

You have me sold.

86

EzeeDrone,

Made in Scotland 15/07/2007 13:31:28

88. Wally, By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA)

Did John Edwards strike a nerve with the Marijuana comment?

87

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 13:37:54

87 HowYouDoingboy:

I only wanted you to know that there were alternative views to the dominion christian interpretations. It is just as I said above.

The bible has different meanings for the words 'jerusalem' and 'israel' than what we commonly like to think. here's a verse that confounds the dominion christians who idolize the modern state of Israel.

"Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

and there are many other verses in the New testament that are similar. The bible is a big book. You should consider the whole thing and not be too narrow. Also, it is not something to be interpreted too literally.

I don't go along with the 'rapture' theology and neither do most christians. The rapture verses are merely describing a dramatic separation of the people. But the rapture crowd has it backward, it is the people who reject god that are prohibited from the Kingdom of God that will be built here on earth when Jesus returns.

88

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 13:40:36

90 EzeeDrone: no, I hadn't read his 'marijuana' comment until you drew my attention to it. Him saying that boy-wonder is not similar to boy wonder is what caught my eye.

89

EzeeDrone,

Made in Scotland 15/07/2007 13:41:38

14. Boy-Wonder

Thank you for posting that speech, I've never read it and found it facinating.

90

EzeeDrone,

Made in Scotland 15/07/2007 13:43:45

92. Wally,

That does not surprise me, liberals when they are not wearing blinders often pick and choose what they read as not to get confused by the facts.

91

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 13:48:28

EzeeDrone in 94:

I'm not a liberal. and there's likely nothing I can say to convince you, but I would like to say that I am not a liberal.

I reject the liberal vs conservative paradigm as it serves little good purpose. Our politicians who pretend to fit in somewhere in that paradigm (1 side or the other) are certainly not loyal to it, they use it to deceive.

but historically in the past I considered myself on the conservative side.

92

wattie>x 1,

15/07/2007 13:50:47

We in the UK are anchored to the apron strings of the most belligerent nation on earth; the USA.
The country was sold out long before Blair knew anything about the darker side off politics.
I've always maintained that New Labour with Blair and Brown at its helm, only governed as they were instructed and allowed too; by the hidden faces whom I believe the Queen once referred to as *underlying forces* during the Diana saga when her butler Burrell's court appearence sudddenly collapsed.
We; with our sham *democracy*, will probably never find the truth as to why this event suddenly unfolded and collapsed; just as suddenly ? No doubt the truth will out in 50 or 100 years time when the present generations are all pushing up daisies somewhere.
The USA are the UK's control masters and we will only be allowed to leave the tragic mess in Iraq and Afghanistan that Blair and Brown were forced into, when the USA allows us to leave.
Thousands upon thousands of innocent victims have paid the terrible price with their lives, and many thousands more will continually pay the same price for America's determination to dominate and control planet earth's resources. If the block isn't put on the US facists soon, our two countries will be hated and detested globally for generations to come. Our time is fast running out to partly redeem ourselves for creating the greatest disaster to beset the Middle East since the end of the Second World War.t
Bush, Blair and Brown have only been the chosen fall guys for those who really do the controlling, they know who they are; WE DON'T!

93

bill1,

15/07/2007 13:52:16

72. Aoda

"So Bush acted with the authority of Congress, that makes it a legal war."

That only makes it legal under US law, nobody else's.

94

bill1,

15/07/2007 13:54:22

72. Aoda

It wasn't even legal under US law, as I understand that the relevant parts of international law are written into US law.

No self-defence, no UN mandate, no legality.

95

GORTEX,

Glasgow 15/07/2007 13:56:54

95. Wally

OK Wally you are not a liberal but you are 100% in their camp.

96

GORTEX,

Glasgow 15/07/2007 14:01:02

98. bill1

Look at the big brain on bill1. I bet all the conspiracy theorists like Guga and the rest will believe you and call Bush & Blair war criminals. What a bunch of numpties. You conspiracy theorists sure know how to beat a dead horse.

97

steve's here,

trolls are free to leave 15/07/2007 14:02:38

i have no doubt that Nouri al-Maliki will be broon sauce as soon as the west pulls out but even he has come to realise there is "no military solution to the problems of Iraq". Time to go, terrorism is an international problem that should be delt with by the UN. The US and the UK is just making things worse in Iraq with every passing day. The military's job was finished years ago what is needed is an effective Iraqi police force, and only they can produce that. This war was stupid before it started...but just look who started it...eejits all

98

GORTEX,

Glasgow 15/07/2007 14:08:46

101. steve's here

"This war was stupid before it started...but just look who started it...eejits all"

And who pray tell do you think started the war?

99

sandy,

USA, land of the free-home of the brave 15/07/2007 14:10:42

#73--Hunky Dorey---good point!!

#86--John Edwards--""weak minded and weak hearted liberals"" will be the ruination of the west if we(those who support the troops fighting the jihadists & believe we must & will defeat them) allow it....

thank you:-)

100

EzeeDrone,

Made in Scotland 15/07/2007 14:13:43

101. steve's here

Thank you for calling the radical Muslims eejits and finally saying they indeed started this war decades ago. Here I thought you’ve had your head buried in the sand this entire time.

101

Seeking truth,

Edinburgh 15/07/2007 14:17:07

103

Seriously desperate stuff Sandy who is it for?

102

EzeeDrone,

Made in Scotland 15/07/2007 14:18:11

105. Seeking truth

So is it true? You are the Troll Djookers?

103

sandy,

USA, land of the free-home of the brave 15/07/2007 14:21:52

#83--Livilion---""the international community of nations recognises the UN as the ultimate arbiter of international law, not the USA. because the US Senate gave Dubya the green light to invade Iraq did not make it legal""..

might you direct me to, or post the link that states the UN has condemned, called for sanctions, chastized, hollered at, screamed at, the USA for invading Iraq??? please???

104

Masque,

15/07/2007 14:27:57

I commiserate with Boy Wonder (the REAL one). Posters who haven't been Trolled yet ... wait till they start hijacking your chosen alias with a hyphen or number or comma for differentiation and use it to attack regular posters and for posting filth.

I had a different name until I got Trolled by a bunch (?) of eejits who destroyed the integrity of the ID I was using. Now I use several IDs.

Make sure you're replying to the right Boy Wonder, Finnking, Djookers or whomever, because it's annoying when poster don't differentiate with the real posters and the Trolls!

105

steve's here,

trolls are free to leave 15/07/2007 14:30:24

#'s 104 and 102 if it the war againts terrorism or radical ideology that kill school girls, i would say, yes, they started it. If it's the blunder in Iraq, well the ultimatium was given by the US and the UK to allow weapon inspections...you could debate the finer points but the shooting war was started by the Bush and Blair team. The mistake was made when the focus was taken off the first and put on to the latter.

106

EzeeDrone,

Made in Scotland 15/07/2007 14:37:53

108. Masque

Good grief grow up. We always know who the real posters are. Boy Wonder has a lisp in his words; Finnking always has a cloud of pot smoke about him, ect. + the extra comma’s and letters stand out like a sore thumb.

You must be another one of Djookers or Bikewoman's names as you are throwing Djookers name in there with legitimate names. He is a troll that uses multiple names to harass people. I’m sure some will come to his rescue that have not yet figured him out yet but they will eventually.

107

bill1,

15/07/2007 14:39:44

73. Hunky Dorey

The British government and 99% of the people living on the island of Britain and part of the island of Ireland do not want the Irish government or the IRA interfering in the affairs of their country. When can we expect Adams, McGuinnes and the rest of them to leave?

108

EzeeDrone,

Made in Scotland 15/07/2007 14:40:30

110. Methalions

Exactly!!! “Boy Wonder” & “nell from falkirk” are two that openly admit to deleting posts on a regular basis. I wish most of the deletions were not automatic as most of them are not offensive.

109

Seeking truth,

Edinburgh 15/07/2007 14:42:22

107

Here ye go Sandy get yersell and edukashun.

http://peace.mennolink.org/articles/iraqsancthist.html

110

bill1,

15/07/2007 14:53:57

107. sandy

Iraq war illegal, says Annan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3661134.stm

111

,

15/07/2007 14:56:28
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112

Seeking truth, Edinburgh,

15/07/2007 14:59:25

117. bill1

The article was in 2004. Was that before or after Annan cashed the bribe checks from Saddam? What ever happened to his son and all the money he got for the oil for food scam?

113

Seeking truth,

Edinburgh 15/07/2007 15:17:07

118 119

Not me folks yer wee serial troll is in overdrive now his ma must be away doon the shops.

114

,

15/07/2007 15:21:53
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115

,

15/07/2007 15:23:21
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116

,

15/07/2007 15:25:51
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117

KD,

15/07/2007 15:26:08

that's it then

out damn spot, out!

118

,

15/07/2007 15:28:39
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119

Listen Ear,

15/07/2007 15:32:44

It is very likely the democrats have given Bush an Ultimatum...

Withdraw by April 2008 or impeachment.

Hence Malaki has now given the OK for the US to surrender gracefully and leave, having won the war on terror.

I can see Brown ordering the withdrawal and calling a general election.


They should all be arrested and charged with murder and war crimes.

120

Seeking truth, Edinburgh,

Pray For Boy Wonder's Brother 15/07/2007 15:33:40

bill1

I'm waiting for an answer from #119

121

,

15/07/2007 15:39:45
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,

15/07/2007 15:43:11
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123

,

15/07/2007 15:46:42
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124

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 15:49:19

There are many in the US who feel that the war is illegal according to US law. It all depends on how the law is interpreted I guess. You know today it is normal (at least in the US it is) that laws be interpreted in a manner that does ignore the words of the law.

First you have the constitutional argument. Where the constitution says congress must declare war before the government can pursue laws. congress did not actually declare war. That constitutional guidance has been ignored informally almost throughout US history. but there are those who still think we should follow the constitution.

and then there's people who have looked closely at the laws congress passed to enable this war and concluded that bush is outside his authorization.

Either way though regardless of what enabling laws have been passed - the people are against this war. and it is totally outside all previously accepted justifications & limits on wars.

125

Seeking the Truth,

15/07/2007 15:49:44

Seeking truth without "the" and the lower case "t" in Truth does sound like Djookers.

126

CANUCK,

15/07/2007 15:57:57

Now is the time to get out..get out.. GET OUT !!!

127

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 16:00:33

Here's what's going on. The clique that rules us wants to continue the war. The people are overwhelmingly against continuing the war though, so elaborate public relations must be used to get people to still believe that they somehow influence their own government. In the election of 2004 when the presidency was up for grabs we had the poll then that showed 55% of the Americans opposed continuing the war. But the clique that rules had no problem with the 55% number because both major candidates for the presidency were very pro-war. So finally in 2006 the war became an issue in the elections, and both Senate & House went over to democrat majorities as a result. But the democrat majority's leadership would not allow real anti-war legislation to be voted on. Instead there's been a series of fake anti-war bills with loopholes in them to make them meaningless that are voted on. This latest bill so highly touted as ordering bush to leave by next April is the same, it has loopholes & exceptions.

but they feel they must keep up the pretense that somehow the people rule and so they keep giving us this stuff. Recently chertoff said there's going to be a new terror act against the US soon.

http://www.antiwar.com/bock/?articleid=11287

It seems that now they've allowed the impression to be gained by the people that 'the system' has forced an end to bush's war. and with a new terror act they plan on renewing the public's desire for war.

here's some other nice links.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/07/14/118383384304...

http://www.walter-c-uhler.com/Reviews/earth.html

128

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15/07/2007 16:05:58
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129

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 15/07/2007 16:13:50

Iraqi PM: allies can leave now
BRIAN BRADY WESTMINSTER EDITOR
Mr. Maliki, hold it there. You have plotted the biggest farce that I have ever heard.
Here it is.
First you allow every one to what they want to do in Iraq then you give free hand to the American holdings in Iraq then you give free hands to British in Basra.
When things go really bad Mr. Blaire leaves. Brown broken comes to take over the new cabinet and says we cannot join you as friends you decide to go other way. Saudis cannot and will not help. Iran has helped you enough. Bow comes, the lonely Maliki when there is a doubt casketed on the timer frame withdrawal of the allied forces.
Mr. Maliki you fool no one.
Tell me one thing.
When are Americans going to leave?
Then we play the different types of the cards.
Okay. At the moment you seem to be playing the wrong game. You go on the winning side.
For how long?
The game is out?

130

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 15/07/2007 16:16:09

112# Typical colonial and loyalist reply i.e. what we have invaded and robbed we intend to keep.The island of Ireland belongs to the Irish people. The British government never at any time had the right to be in Ireland and never will have the right to be in Ireland. Your undemocratic calculations are laughable and could only come from a brain washed loyalist-unionist . Ireland did not invade Britain,it was the other way around. Not that a simple fact such as this could ever register with your ilk. If someone enters your home and you ask them to leave, and they refuse ,then you have the right to put them out.So three cheers for Gerry Adams As to your main point,the Irish government do not interfere in the affairs of any country . the same cannot be said for your English masters .Ireland consists of 32 counties .The Irish nation consists of 32 counties and no political interferance by your masters will ever change that. Stolen property cries out to its owners.So put it back thief!

131

Youssuf Al Beendoonrapub,

15/07/2007 16:29:34

# 80. sandy, USA, war groupie / 1:53pm 15 Jul 2007

#40, 41--youssuf---please grow up..your stuck on stupid...


Gee Sandy darlin' did I offend you in someway?

Now, if you're keen on being a groupie let me ask you, have you got any Scottish in you? If not would you like some?

Hugs and kisses

Your loving Youssuf
Xxx

132

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 16:30:28

but don't a real majority of the people in the 4 northern counties that make up Northern Ireland want to stay with the UK? so why fight over it?

The last person I'm descendant from that came to the US from elsewhere came from belfast in 1836. That's where my Irish blood comes from (about 20%). but he was protestant, so I guess he'd be on the Loyalist side today most likely.

133

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, California 15/07/2007 18:23:45

103. sandy, 4. Lynne, USA

The IRAQI PM has thrown a spanner into Bush's failed WAR.

Bush our idiot Pres. has one ability, to manipulate people by injecting fear into his speeches from his bully pulpit. But all that is ending fast.

Bush is a man who did not get the majority of the American people's popular vote. But was elected Pres. anyway, with the aid of the US Supreme court.

Our Electoral College is a form of political manipulation, mixed in with corruption.

Since Bush was questionably elected, he has managed to drive our country into a national record debt nearing $9 trillion dollars or £4.5 trillion pounds.

And he used fear to manipulate the attack on a sovereign nation IRAQ.

This has so far cost the American nation, thousands of lives in dead troops and tens thousands in wounded troops. Plus untold deaths of IRAQI citizens.

All for what? To defend America against terrorists. What a sick joke.

Bush and Cheney hide the thousands of flag draped coffins of our dead troops from the eyes of the public.
Its too distasteful, but its OK to show the manipulated dead bodies of Iraqi’s .
That’s our American style political hypocrisy

Since Bush ordered the attack on Iraq. Approx 64,000 Americans have been murdered in America by Americans. So who are these terrorist Bush talks about?

The 9/11 attack that killed 3000 Americans and other foreign nationals, was done by mostly Saudi Arabs led by Osama Bin laden, who remains free.
Another sick joke.

But since at least 50% of Americans are poorly educated and cannot see beyond the end of their nose. People like Bush always stand a fair chance of getting elected in America
This 50%, know nothing of other cultures, events or history beyond the shores of the USA.

As for our Military men and women, 80% who join up, they do for security and medical benefits and had no chance of getting a higher education.

Most come from poor

134

bill1,

15/07/2007 18:24:20

127. Seeking truth

Sandy just wanted a link for her request in 107. Nothing to do with the bribe story.

135

bill1,

15/07/2007 18:31:30

139. Wally

"but don't a real majority of the people in the 4 northern counties that make up Northern Ireland want to stay with the UK? so why fight over it?"

Six counties actually, the ancient kingdom of Ulster. Most of them want to stay with the United Kingdom but the IRA want it to join the Irish Republic, hence the fighting.

136

bill1,

15/07/2007 18:33:27

139. Wally

More on topic; the US air force is quietly building up in Iraq:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070714/D8QCHASG0.html

137

wattie>x 1,

15/07/2007 18:57:14

#140> I sincerely believe you speak on behalf off the millions of decent US citizens and I am certain your comments would be overwhelmingly endorsed by their counterparts in the UK. Decent people have been lied and deceived too in both countries, by so called leaders who seem to have acted on their own behalf when deciding to attack sovereign nations.
Their blatant dishonesty and blatant arrogance has diminished our democracies to the level of ridicule and disbelief. No longer are our citizens on both sides of the Atlantic prepared to bear the stigma brought down upon our people by Bush; Blair and Brown who was a willing partner to the former PMs crime. Public esteem of these lying, corrupt and deceiful politicians are at an all time low in the UK; and I am sure, much the same situation exists in the USA.

138

Mrs. Espstein,

USA 15/07/2007 19:15:52

117. bill1

The questions posed at #119 are interesting.

139

StopTheNumpties,

from whining so much 15/07/2007 19:21:51

I'm amazed at the high percentage of posters that keep riding off-track, dithering about "illegal" war and "criminal" leaders, as if the arrogance of repeating it one more time will bring the world any closer to a solution to this mess. Far more useful would be some discussion of possible solutions GOING FORWARD instead of arguing over how it all happened and how it's none of your fault. Iraq's problems, indeed the Middle East's problems go back much farther than most of the post's fixation on current events. The Chamberlain Solution of withdrawing and who cares what happens to the region will reap a far more bitter crop than you are seeing now. When Iraq splits into three armed camps, one of which is called the independent Republic of Kurdistan, you will not see Turkey sit idly by. It won't be easy to stop whining about the problem and start focusing on what might help solve it longer term, but please try.

140

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15/07/2007 19:32:17
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141

,

15/07/2007 19:48:03
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,

15/07/2007 20:02:41
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Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/07/2007 20:25:47

Stop The Numpties in 146:

the way to move forward is to bring all our troops home. After all, prior to the arrival of our troops in Iraq in 2003 the level of violence was very low compared to today. In a little over 4 years of the US/UK occupation about 800,000 Iraqis have died who otherwise would not have died, about 2 million have fled the country, another 1 million are displaced internally, their economy is destroyed, their unemployment rate is very high, there is no security and so much violence. Prior to the invasion they had none of this. In 25 years of rule Saddam did not preside over anything like this at all.

but I will agree with you that if we look to the past to find reasons for these problems, then I'd say that 1-the US was wrong to help saddam Hussein come to power and to nurture him once in office, 2-the US was wrong to encourage Saddam to invade Kuwait (remember April Glespie the US ambassador to Iraq at the time has admitted that she did this) 3-the US was wrong to bomb Iraq during the 1990's 4-the US was wrong to impose the economic sanctions that killed so many people especially children. All these things de-stabilized Iraq and laid the groundwork for today's mass violence and chaos. Iraq had a functioning democracy for over 20 years after the UK left the first time in 1932. We should've helped them with that mostly by staying out of their business. Instead the US favored saddam who was a known murderer and unsavory character. That was wrong of the US. Won't you agree?

144

frank mcbride,

lusitania 15/07/2007 20:35:34

#142, bill.

Actually, there are 9 (nine) counties, Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Down, Londonderry (Colraine), Monaghan, Tyrone, in Ulster and, the majority wish(ed) to be part of Ireland. The 1920 Act was typically British.

The "Troubles" were purely, like everywhere else in the "Commonwealth", a statement of Britain: "See how good our rule was!"

145

Brian,

The Laughing Academy 15/07/2007 20:36:11

#112 bill1

That's a ridiculous reply to Hunky Dorey.

Ireland never invaded or colonised Britain and fine you know it.
Are you only an anti-imperialist when it comes to the Middle East? But an imperialist on the home front?
Britain has no right to be in Ireland, never had and never will. It still occupies a part of Ireland. NI is an artificial entity, a child of imperialism... just like the colonial-settler state of Israel.

146

morris,

edinburgh 15/07/2007 20:45:51

147
And your contribution achieves what exactly?
Maybe they are trying to help find a way forward (what happens in future ) by undertsanding what really happened in the past ,as opposed to what the western governments spin to us,and the real reasons for it!

The simple fact is Iraq was invaded against the expressed wishes of United Nations and KA the general secretary said so.
The reasons for invading had absolutely nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction, because there were no weapons, let alone conslusive evidence which Blair claimed to have seen,which we now know was a total fabrication.

Whatever the solution to this might be,it will never be resolved as long as we allow the Muslim world to see that we approve of Blair and Bush and their deception.

GUga,Finnking TSW and Bill may not have an instant answer but at least they recognised the stupidity of ever invading .I think a solution is far more likely to come from their thinking than your zero contribution!

147

Brian,

The Laughing Academy 15/07/2007 20:47:22

#139 Wally

Frank McBride is correct, there are 9 counties in the province of Ulster. Northern Ireland has only 6 of these counties in order to make sure there would a Protestant majority. To include the other 3 counties ( Donegal, Cavan, and Monaghan) would have resulted in a Catholic majority.
The northern state was a sectarian anti-Catholic state created to perpetuate British rule in Ireland.
It was, and is, a totally undemocratic state that was created against the democratic wishes of the Irish people, who, in the last all-Ireland election (1919) overwhelmly voted for Sinn Fein.

148

frank mcbride,

lusitania 15/07/2007 20:51:30

#146, StopTheNumpties.

It is incumbent on the Abruscos (the Bush Oil Company), Haliburton etc. to argue as you do.
The people of Iraq are dispensible: oil, and any gain; including ripping off the American people, is acceptable.

Bush, Cheney, inter alia, have no morals, never mind a genuine belief in democracy.

149

Tricia,

15/07/2007 21:16:54

It's pretty sad to think that after all these years and the large number of casualties on all sides that Iraqis were probably safer under Saddam Hussein. Whenever the troops leave, there will be a civil war bloodbath. The one thing he did control were the factions. I agree that he was evil but...
... In the meantime, Afghanistan and Pakistan are worse because our dynamic duo decided to send our troops and resources to the wrong front.

150

Clarindia,

Outside the tent... 15/07/2007 21:22:03

I reckon if I was the US-enforced patsy 'in-charge' of Iraq, I'd be planning as many getaway strategies as posssible to save my skin. Mr al-Maliki would appear to have been quite crafty in throwing a spanner in the coalition works by suggesting that they could withdraw from Iraq any time. If they stay and the murderous shambles continues, as it will, he can blame it on their continued presence. If they withdraw without satisfying his current request for more weapons and training, which is unlikely due to the on-going failure to train and arm them adequately, it's still their fault for the predictable chaos. Either way he is relatively in the clear and distances himself from the "patsy" claims.
With rumblings in Pakistan, Iran, Turkey - Russia getting twitchy about its fair share of conventional weapons allowance etc. - haven't our politicians done well for the oilmen, arms dealers, drug traders, mercenary agencies, murdering criminal militias and world peace?

151

MichScot,

USA 15/07/2007 21:22:08

My father was very astute, and I asked him about it when this whole mess started. He served in WWII.
He said that we do not belong in Iraq. and I agree with him.

I have Muslim friends, and I am Christian. Also American. We do not agree about religion, but we let each other live and let live. And we love each other.

The problem is that neither side will let the other live in peace, the way things should be. To blame everything on one side or the other is not to see the whole truth, and both sides are pretty good at lying about what the truth is!

The problem is greed, one of the Biblical deadly sins. And look at the death and destruction it is causing! I pray for my "enemies" daily. I want the best for all of us, and that includes all the poor victims and their families, no matter who caused the carnage. Neither side is blameless.

I am really tired of being treated like I am a beast, and I am sure that there are many Muslims who feel the same way.

I am not a complete Pollyanna. I know that there are times that we must defend ourselves and that we are also innocent victims, but we are not the only ones who have ever been innocent victims.

Why are we in Iraq? It didn't seem to me to tie in with 9/11. It seemed a bit convoluted to me. But why was there 9/11? That wasn't exactly asked for, was it?

If they would let us alone and we would let them alone, it would be best for all of us.

Islam may be forced on people or Christianity, for that matter, which is NOT what Jesus taught (i.e., forcing it on people), but you cannot regulate the thoughts of the people being forced. AND the Church has always flourished when persecuted, not that I want to be persecuted. So if you are against the Christian church, you need to watch out, or you may find an entirely new epoch of Christianity that will really surprise you. If your aim is to destroy the Church, you will find that your efforts will fail miserably

152

Tricia,

15/07/2007 21:22:58

#152- Brian, to add to that thought, the new government in NI was as a result of Paisley fast forwarding to maybe 20 years from now. By then Catholics could be in the majority and the Protestants would then be in a position to see what it felt like to be deprived of a voice in their government. Of course, poor people on either side will continue to be the pawns.

153

Pilrig,

Livingston 15/07/2007 21:27:51

Wally #91 - and what happens when Jesus disnae return ? (wouldn't blame him of he does go awol actually)

154

Pilrig,

Livingston 15/07/2007 21:30:08

86 - "we're doomed ! doomed, ah tell ye !"

155

MichScot,

USA 15/07/2007 21:59:19

Oh, by the way... I was disappointed that I had my post ready to submit the other day when posting closed. Someone took several Biblical quotes out of context. Most of them referred to the destruction seen at the Last Day, in which also Muslims believe. They were made to sound as if they were commands for Christians to go out and kill. And the innocent Victim to be destroyed was God Himself, who sent part of Himself, Jesus, to die on the cross as the ultimate Sacrifice, THE Lamb of God, the final sacrifice for sin.

And as for the 144,000...an allegory:

12(tribes of Israel) x 12(disciples of Christ to Jews and Gentiles, or non-Jews)=144=the whole church on earth throughout the ages
+
3(God's number)+7(completion, as in the 7th day, God rested)=10x10x10=1,000, or the completion of all of time
=
144x1,000=144,000, or ALL believers in Christ

156

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15/07/2007 22:17:01
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157

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, California (the one and only). 15/07/2007 22:17:19

160. MichScot,

Hey dude,
Where did you get that stuff from.?

Have you been reading too much Harry Potter, that wizard dude.


Respectfully
Galactic Cannibal

158

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15/07/2007 22:18:05
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159

okanaganguy,

kelowna, b.c. canada 15/07/2007 22:19:49

Hmmmm. G.W.B. ignored the U.N. when He and Blair and a very few others invaded Iraq. Now the talk is to get the U.N. to send troops in to train Iraqi troops. This war has been going on for over 4 years now. How long does it take to train troops. What a joke. If the U.S. stopped spending billions of $ in rebuilding Iraq, then they would be asked to leave. There is no incentive for Malaki to meet benchmarks as long as the cash is coming in. The surge is not working and i am wondering what excuse G.W. will have in September to keep the surge going on longer. I believe He wont withdraw troops until his term is finished, then He will blame it on the new administration for the failure to succeed. He is an extremely disillusioned person or the dumber than a sack of hammers. The sad thing is that the U.S. stands to lose several hundred, if not thousands of troops before they pull out of Iraq. What a mess, regards

160

bill1,

15/07/2007 22:29:51

149. frank mcbride

I should have been more precise. Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry and Tyrone are the six remaining counties from the original nine which comprised Ulster. My understanding is that the majority of the people in the six counties of present day Northern Ireland wish to be part of the UK.

161

bill1,

15/07/2007 22:35:07

150. Brian

"NI is an artificial entity, a child of imperialism... just like the colonial-settler state of Israel."

An interesting comparison - I'll have to look into that one - thanks!

162

Tikun,

Nashville, TN 15/07/2007 22:40:15

Bill1

Of course you will. Any ammunition to add to your hatred of Israel.

Do you ever bore yourself?

163

donmclean,

East Kilbride 15/07/2007 22:42:16

There is only one solution, and that is for the sovereign Iraqi people to maintain their own state. Westerners have no place there. There was less blood shed under Sadan Hussein than ever under the present regime.Yes there will be civil war but then should you expect democracy from a country that has been invaded by infidels.
What we need is democracy in this country !

164

bill1,

15/07/2007 22:46:33

151. morris

Thanks for your comments. I see these fora as a valuable resource for information and discussion, and attacks from trolls and stupid remarks are a small price to pay to be here!

165

bill1,

15/07/2007 22:50:38

167. Tikun

It's interesting that you are ever vigilant for perceived slights. I never realised that Zionists and Orangemen had a shared purpose - care to tell me more?

166

bill1,

15/07/2007 22:58:24

nitol

167

Allergic,

Canada 15/07/2007 23:12:47

The war is lost you claim. Therefore the danger to us all is greater I believe. I do not think Pres. Bush should have been allowed to go head to head with his former friend and business partner Osama Bin Ladin.
If he had declared a conflict of interest and stepped aside I think things would have been handled better.

168

MichScot,

USA 15/07/2007 23:28:36

#162
Nope, from seminarians.

169

MichScot,

USA 15/07/2007 23:55:26

#162
Jews, Muslims, and Christians have numbers in their sacred writings that refer to specific things. Different in each religion, probably, but not everything is completely literal. The book of Daniel is prophetic and so is Revelation to most Christian churches.

170

livilion,

livingston 16/07/2007 00:02:41

86. John Edwards, Orange County

Almost no one disagrees with these basic facts: that Saddam Hussein was a tyrant and a menace; that after Desert Storm he no longer had weapons of mass destruction and that he no longer had the means to obtain nuclear weapons; that he was completely paranoid about possible insurrection and so had never supported terrorists; that he was no longer a credible threat to the region or to nuclear capable states like Israel and the United States; but that he thwarted the will of the international community and undermined the United Nations' credibility by successfully bluffing about his nations' military capability, supplied in the main by 'the West' during his war with Iran.

Uncle Sam on the other hand almost no one disagrees with these basic facts: has weapons of mass destruction and is the only state to have used nukes in anger, that he is doing everything in his power to develop more effective nuclear weapons and stealth delivery technology to enable near instant first strike capability anywhere on the planet; that he has supported terrorists; that he is a grave threat to the region, to vital allies like Pakistan, Turkey, and to allies in Iraq and Afghanistan, that by acting unilaterally in executing regime change he thwarted the will of the international community and undermined the United Nations' credibility and also it's finances by withholding just dues.

You're not one of the North Carolina Edwards by any chance?

Any relation to Springfield's Cletus Del Roy Spuckler?

Big shout going out to the Tar Heels you-all!

btw I lost a good friend and associate to an IRA bomb in London's Docklands and only by luck narrowly missed it myself so I'll take no terrorist appeaser BS from someone I doubt has ever even held his own passport.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/februa

171

The Wizard,

OZ 16/07/2007 00:15:16

It's surprising we are allowed to comment on this.
Posting on stories about terrorists, Iraq etc seem to have been banned quite a lot lately.

172

Amethyst,

16/07/2007 00:22:30

169. bill1

It's quite obvious that bill1 means that anyone not agreeing with the terrorist appeasers is a Troll.

So I guess until I get my terrorist pom poms I’m a troll.

173

Amethyst,

16/07/2007 00:28:50

175. livilion, livingston

You wrote

"that after Desert Storm he no longer had weapons of mass destruction and that he no longer had the means to obtain nuclear weapons; that he was completely paranoid about possible insurrection and so had never supported terrorists; that he was no longer a credible threat to the region or to nuclear capable states like Israel and the United States"

You are entitled to your wrong opinion, sounds like you are geting your information from Guga, TSW, or othger loonies like Wally rather than credible news sources.

174

SouthernGent,

16/07/2007 00:33:28

175

If Sadam "bluffed the UN", how could everything you listed prior to that be fact??

175

MichScot,

USA 16/07/2007 01:22:55

I hear some woman from Cheshire married Omar bin Laden.

176

Vince Patterson,

16/07/2007 01:34:23

180. MichScot, USA

I bet TSW, Nell from Falkirk, and livilion would all say yes if Osama himself would ask them to marry him.

177

MichScot,

USA 16/07/2007 01:39:12

Don't you think that the Iraqis are getting fed up with us acting as though they CAN"T handle their own affairs? Probably has something to do with the polite request for us to leave...

178

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta,California the Golden State 16/07/2007 02:29:19

174. MichScot, USA / 12:55am 16 Jul 2007

Thanks dude , but I will stick with the fact that our energy source will change.

And during that process, our planet earth will be incenerated

Respectfully
Galactic Cannibal

179

Brian,

The Laughing Academy 16/07/2007 02:32:51

Whatever decision is made on Iraq, Brown will follow the lead of his neocon handlers in Washington. He couldn't bring himself to stand up to that worthless excuse for a human being, Tony Blair, never mind disagree with George W Bush (whom Diego Maradona correctly described as "human garbage").

Brown is as culpable as Blair on the issue of Iraq. He supported Blair's blundering legacy all the way, and he donated £millions from Treasury funds to finance the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent Iraqi civilians. He did this, not to please the idiotic and pathetic Blair, but to keep on the right side of his real masters in the USA.... the Zionist neocons.

Nothing will change under this Union Jack waving cretin who will, hopefully, inadvertently oversee the eventual break-up of the UK. Brown does not understand the English people and he hasn't a clue about the changing political landscape in Scotland.

It wouldn't surprise me if he actually lost his parliamentary seat at the next UK general election. Now, that's an outcome that would be met with loud and derisory guffawing... by all who want a better world to live in.

Like Blair he is a cowardly individual who blatantly grovels at the feet of power... and thinks nothing of walking over those whom he has power over.

He is the scum of the earth for he cares more about pleasing big power and big business than he does for ordinary human beings trapped in global poverty due to economic policies designed and supported by him and his ilk.

180

zigzag,

Canada 16/07/2007 03:17:15

And then the thought of Bush and Maliki riding shot gun in a Hummvie sounds appealing.

Think Bush would want to stay the course then? Oh yes; send Broon and Blair for comic relief for a giggle

Ein Prosit

181

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylo (USA) 16/07/2007 03:32:00

ZigZag & other Canadians - you may be interested in this story below.

http://www.canadians.org/media/DI/2007/11-July-07.html

The US Army it seems has the power to shut down any public meeting of citizens in Canada.

182

Pilrig,

Livingston 16/07/2007 05:22:04

Bill 170 - don't know about Zionists but the main aim of the bright Orange boys is to down as many pints as possible, and give the occasional kafflic verbal grief.

183

bill1,

16/07/2007 05:31:24

187. Pilrig

Blue and white with an orange stripe - you must be a Celtic fan.

184

livilion,

livingston 16/07/2007 06:47:17

178. Amethyst +179. SouthernGent

For one, most folk here don't just blindly accept whatever BS is served up to us by our government in order to excuse Operation Iraqi Liberation.

'My country right or wrong' should only have currency with the Cletus Spucklers who can't think for themselves, or 1930's brownshirts.

For another, spy satelites deployed over Iraq can only tell us if there are WMDs or terrorists deployed on the roofs of Bagdad,
but again they can also be used to confirm that gas trucks or milk trucks are actually in fact Scud missile launchers, or that baby milk formula factories are chemical warfare agent production facilities, if you really, really want them to.

These could've been compared to your own in the US, for verification, if you'd wanted to.

Further, during the desert storm campaign, coalition forces as they put it, bombed Iraq back to the stone-age.

If Saddam would've deployed his WMDs don't you think that was the time he'd have done so, after all he did then have the chemical weapons we'd supplied?

>>>You are entitled to your wrong opinion, sounds like you are geting your information from Guga, TSW, or othger loonies like Wally rather than credible news sources.<<<

In the UK we were told that Saddam had 'WMDs ready for use against coalition forces within 45 minutes', this was the basis on which our Government agreed to invade Iraq.

""...CNN Wednesday, January 12, 2005

Despite intensive searches, no banned Iraqi weapons were found after the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime.

The U.S. ends its search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. inspectors have ended their search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in recent weeks, a U.S. intelligence official told CNN.

The United States is taking steps to determine how it received erroneous intelligence that deposed Iraqi leader Saddam Hussei

185

livilion,

livingston 16/07/2007 07:01:46

86. John Edwards, Orange County
>>>Bring back the World War II generation back before Marijuana & other drugs + social programs ruined their ability to fight the good fight.<<<

I'm afraid in my case Grandad is dead now, but it wasn't marijuana & other drugs that ruined his ability to fight the good fight but as a RN naval gunner he'd had the ship blown up from under him five times during WWI and WWII.

He had no social program to help him recover from the 'shell shock' as it was known then, but ended his days much the way you see Muhammad Ali is today.

The 'good fight', which fight would that be then?

186

morris,

edinburgh 16/07/2007 09:48:58

190
I think you are wasting your time with them Lion!
It was obvious to anybody with a solitary brain cell that when Blair made two satements (one week apart)
1) "I have seen irrefutible proof" and 2) "I still believe that weapons of mass destruction still exist",that these two statements were choronologically impossible!You cannot go from definitely to maybe,only in reverse is it possible.
From that moment on it was impossible that Blair was telling the truth,the only susprise is that some of them still dont get it!
They clearly never will!

187

David E. Duke,

LA 16/07/2007 10:55:22

190. livilion, livingston

He was not talking about your grand dad, he is talking about terrorist appeasers like you that makes your grand dad roll over in his grave,

188

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylo (USA) 16/07/2007 11:18:35

David Duke in LA 192:

The real David Duke opposes the war on terror.

We have seen this phrase 'terrorist appeaser' several times.

I can give you some examples of terrorist appeasers. On September 11, 2001 here in the US we had terrorist appeasers in charge of our defenses. On a normal basis 2-3 times per week the US Air Force launches jets into the air to investigate planes that fly off-course. Each plane that travels files a flight plan. Computers check automatically to detect when the planes go off-course. When a plane is off-course significantly and there is no explanation, then the USAF launches jets to check them out. Investigators have found that this normally occurs 2-3 times per week on average all year long. Americans will remember the news story from 3-4 years ago where a professional golfer's plane carrying about 10 people went off course. A USAF jet was launched to find it and see what happened. The golfer's jet was found flying far above the normal altitude, the pilot said it looked like everyone was dead on board from no oxygen.

The US government had lots of warning that on that particular day September 11 there would be an attack similar to the one that occurred. And on that day it was decided that a war game occur where the systems for stopping such attacks would be tested. And pursuant to that war game there was no response at all when the passenger jets went off course. Normally jets would be launched to investigate just 10 minutes after these commercial passenger jets went off course. But on that day terrorist appeasers were in charge. And the USAF jets were not launched until about an hour after it was first detected by the computers that these passenger jets were off-course. And then they were unable to get to the hijacked jets in time. Because of the terrorist appeasers.

189

bill1,

16/07/2007 13:07:46

193. Wally

I was tempted to say that the people who put our troops into danger without proper equipment, resources or support are also terrorist appeasers.

But of course they are much worse than that, murderer would not be too strong a word to apply to an official who puts troops in harm's way knowing that their chances of death are greatly enhanced by that official's actions or inactions.

I am thinking particularly of the British soldiers who are sent into action without protective clothing, without effective weapons, and without efficient communications. I am also thinking of the boarding party of sailors and marines who were taken captive because thy did not have the right vessels, weapons or helicopter and vessel support. The leave rotation, medical and family support are atrocious to say th least.

I am sure that similar difficulties face the US troops.

190

Finnking II,

Finland 16/07/2007 13:08:10

"He added that Iraqi forces are "still in need of more weapons and rehabilitation" to be ready in the case of a withdrawal. "

They need rehab?!!? God, I knew that drug abuse was now a problem in Iraq since the 'west' arrived, but....

"I would never advocate violence, guns and drugs to anyone but thay have always worked for me."--HST.

191

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

16/07/2007 17:54:49

Article From Scotland on Sunday Brian Brady July 15
"GORDON Brown was last night under growing pressure to announce a full withdrawal of British troops from Basra after Iraq's prime minister declared that coalition troops could leave "any time they want".

"Despite violence continuing to rage in Iraq, Nouri al-Maliki yesterday insisted his forces were in a position to take full responsibility for maintaining security, although he added the police and army needed more weapons. His comments were immediately seized on as providing the Prime Minister with a perfect pretext for dramatically accelerating the withdrawal of all UK forces from Iraq." Comment from Dr M H Sutcliffe
Its not a pretext it is a fact that the majority of English Scottish and Iraqi people want the troops out. Last Saturday (July7) the Daily Mail page 40 reported that PM Nouri al Maliki had rung Broon on Thursday July 5 to tell him he wanted the troops out in 90 days. The BBC and Guardian failed to grasp the huge significance of this buried story. Clearly it is now all over,their is no raison d'etre for the presence of UK troops in Iraq. The anti war people have won.Remember all the garbage about how the Iraqi's wanted us there ,from people like Straw Blair Murdoch and pro war propagandists in the media generally. Now even the leader of Iraq, who they installed ,now wants them out. TIME TOGO; IT IS NOT YOUR COUNTRY!
On another subject I notice the Guardian has claimed the possibility of an attack on Iran in 6-18 months time. Now have I heard this WTJ or AWPish story before? (war talk jibberish or aweful war propaganda) Oddly enough the quote "source"
doesn't want to be named. I wonder why not? Let me go on the record as dismissing this jibberish and note that according to the KUCINICH website 54% of US citizens now favour the impeachment of R CHENEY. I will repeate my offer to the BBC to discuss the Cheney impeachment story on Newsnigh

192

Thomas Paine,

17/07/2007 13:04:25

"Iraqi PM: allies can leave now"!
Ouch! That sounds like "painful" withdrawal, doesn't it?!

193

Disambiguation,

17/07/2007 18:51:05

The comment of Iraqi security forces needing more weapons is interesting. There is no shortage of money to pay for weapons, there is no problem delivering weapons. So why don't they have all the weapons they need?

I sometimes wonder what the real plan is in Iraq. Is this just a staging area to invade Iran? Why does it take this long to deploy an Iraqi security force ?
Makes me wonder.

194

Malcolm Rose,

A safe country 18/07/2007 08:26:12

Yes, but if all those poor people who have been driven mad by being sent to fight this war come back, a lot more prisons will have to be built. In the USA they have already done that, apparently.

I favour a return to the good old days when the kings and emperors had to lead the troops into battle. If King Tony and Emperor George had been riding out on the front lines, they might have actually won fame and glory.

195

Malcolm Rose,

Safe Exile 18/07/2007 08:41:49

Imagine YOUR country's national Police being suddenly replaced by ordinary soldiers from a distant and very foreign country, who have only a very rudimentary grasp of local languages, customs and conditions. Would they manage to damp down violence, prevent insurgencies and keep the peace? Fat chance - they would, with the very best of effort and intentions, only inflame existing conflicts.

That is what has happened. Sad as all the Iraqis I have known have seemed really nice, serious people. I do weep for them.

196

Disambiguation,

18/07/2007 15:14:39

If they say "we dont need you , you can leave now" We should just say good luck and leave. Shia will control Iraq and they are anti Al Quaeda. I would not want to see the violence they will inflict on each other but it will probably happen anyway.

197

MichScot,

USA 18/07/2007 23:46:41

#176
I noticed that, too.

198

MichScot,

USA 18/07/2007 23:48:59

#201
Sounds good to me.


 

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