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Published Date: 15 April 2007
By SINAN SALAHEDDIN
IN BAGHDAD
A CAR bomb blasted through a busy bus station near one of Iraq's holiest shrines yesterday, killing at least 56 people.
Separately, a suicide car bomber killed 10 people on a major bridge in downtown Baghdad - the second attack on a Tigris river crossing in a week. However, the Jadriyah bridge suffered little damage.

The bus station bombing occurred about 200 yards from the Imam Hussein shrine in Karbala, where the grandson of Islam's Prophet Muhammad is buried - one of the most important sites for Shi'ites.

At least six children were among the dead, according to an Al-Hussein Hospital official. Iranian and Pakistani pilgrims were also among the victims.

"I want my father. Where is my father?" cried out 11-year-old Sajad Kadhim as he lay on the grounds of the hospital, where doctors were treating his burns.

"My father was holding my hand and there was a big explosion. I don't know where my father is," the boy wailed.

A 72-year-old woman who called herself Um Hussein ran through the hospital corridors looking for her daughter and six-year-old grandson.

"They went to buy lunch," she said, pounding her head in grief. "What did they do to deserve this? To whom should I complain? There is no government to protect us," she cried.

Hundreds of grief-stricken people swarmed around ambulances. Police fired into the air to clear roads, but angry mobs attacked them and set two police vehicles on fire.

Rioters surrounded the Karbala governor's office and demanded his and provincial council members' resignations - blaming them for lax security.

A curfew was imposed and the city's entrances were sealed off.

More than 70 people were also wounded in the attack, said another hospital official.

Karbala lies 50 miles south of Baghdad, and is the destination of an annual Shi'ite pilgrimage. Hundreds of Shi'ite faithful were killed last month during this year's pilgrimage.

In Baghdad, at least 15 people were wounded in the Jadriyah bridge bombing - the second such attack this week on infrastructure connecting the Iraqi capital's two sides.

Last Thursday, a suicide truck bomb completely collapsed the al-Sarafiyah bridge in northern Baghdad, killing 11 people.

Meanwhile, it emerged yesterday that British forces have killed eight Iraqi militia laying roadside bombs near where four soldiers were killed in Basra last week.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman said two bomb teams were hit on Friday night on the outskirts of the Hyall Shuala District, west of Basra City.

Two suicide bombers killed themselves in an attack on US diplomatic offices in Morocco's commercial hub Casablanca yesterday, the scene of three suicide blasts four days ago.

Witnesses said the first blast happened about six yards from the US cultural centre and the second went off about 60 yards away from the US consulate.

The full article contains 478 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 14 April 2007 9:23 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: War in Iraq , Iraq
 
1

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 01:25:39

Remember - they didn't have a single suicide bomber in all of Iraqi history until the invasion of March 2003. Now they happen every day. If we think this is a bad thaing, then we should withdraw our troops. It's a value judgement. What kind of values do we have? Do we value killing death & destruction - if so we should elect people like Bush & Blair. if not we should sweep them away and pull the troops out. Let the Iraqis have national sovereignty. they would do better without us intervening than with us intervening. Remember also, Saddam Hussein was their leader because the US supported Saddam beginning when Saddam was 18 years old and made him their leader. If left to themselves they wouldn't have either Saddam ruling over them or the suicide bombers. That is not my opinion, but simple fact.

2

Nanea,

Hawaii 15/04/2007 01:35:03

1. Wally, Arizona

You're right! They use to have mass murders that were kept secret, "real" torture rooms, rape rooms, and mass graves you never heard about.

I'm with you, it's much better when they sugar coat things and sweep stuff under the rug....

3

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 02:30:18

Nanea of Hawaii, I'm not sure what you mean. But the level of torture also against the Iraqi people has increased dramatically since the invasion. This is just simple fact. Abu Ghraib was one of Saddam's torture prisons, but the US took it over and made it their own torture prisons. A US Army report said that 34 people were known to be tortured to death under US control at Abu Ghraib.

The level of torture against Iraqis has increased exponentially since the invasion. Huge numbers of people have been kidnapped and then tortured before being killed. This has become routine whereas before the invasion it was by comparison very rare in fact.

4

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 02:41:38

Here is some fantastic information. On September 10, 2001 there were news stories carried on all of the big US news corporations' tv news broadcasts in which a pentagon spokesman said that the pentagon could not account for $2.3 trillion worth of money that it had handled over approximately a 10 year period. On the same day Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld gave a speech to explain the loss of $2.3 trillion by the bureaucracy that he oversees.

http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=430

Here's a link to Rumsfeld's speech where he admits they lost $2.3 trillion. It is not clear whether some or all of the $2.3 trillion lost was allocated by Congress to be spent by the pentagon or not. But it is clear that the money was mis-spent, it was spent in a manner not approved by the US Constitution. THerefore it was unconstitutional and outside the legal authority of the government to spend.

Here's another link on this issue.

http://www.newswithviews.com/public_comm/public_commentar...

Word from the inside is as follows - some accountants were agitating for a long time that the missing $2.3 trillion be brought out to the public's view so that people could see that things were not right. On Septemgber 10, 2001 they were allowed to hold their press conference and tell the world. Rumsfeld of course gave his speech linked to above where he blamed the bureaucracy that he oversaw for this theft. But on September 11, 2001 a new news story occurred that took up all attention by the mass media, and the story of September 10, 2001 (that $2.3 trillion was lost/stolen) went away. Not only that on the morning of September 11, 2001 a flying object hit the pentagon and resulted in an explosion. The particular part of the pentagon hit was an office wher

5

Nanea,

Hawaii 15/04/2007 02:48:03

3. Wally, Arizona

LOL LOL LOL

You're saying Saddam's torture camps all over Iraq were similar to a girl putting a lease on a naked Iraqi?

Have you ever heard of perspective? Let me guess instead of admitting it was far worse when Saddam violently brutalized 100,000's of thousands of people by breaking their teeth out, castrated them, tying them up and making them watch their children get raped, ect... You are going to say since a couple people made a couple bad Iraqis pose nude wearing a dog collar it's the same thing.

Nice of you to down play the sweeping under the rug of the horrible atrocities that Saddam use to commit and how you miss the good old days. How can you blame the US? You need to look in a mirror and blame yourself for not supporting the effort.

6

ImaDemSoldier,

15/04/2007 02:48:55

#1 Wally

Hey Wally, did you tell your nephew to stay low, and stay awake?

Well, looks like we're about to agree to disagree.

You said "Remember - they didn't have a single suicide bomber in all of Iraqi history until the invasion of March 2003."

Not in Iraq, they weren't needed then. But, they were around.

You said "Now they happen every day."

You blame America for this? Do we supply the bombs? Do we strap it on them? Do we attack civilians with them? Do we do this in the name of Allah, so we can spend eternity surrounded by virgins? (Lol, been learning some history and culture. Can you blame me? It's amazing). If some one can actually come back and tell me they are surrounded by virgins, well, you know, hehehe, jk.

You said "If we think this is a bad thaing, then we should withdraw our troops. It's a value judgement."

Strong words, but as a thinking man who still hear the cries for help, and the thanks from Iraqi'. I think my Value judgement will be to go back and support those who are truly hurting, unable to defend themselves. Pound sand with my unit, so my kids will not have to.

You said "What kind of values do we have? "

I have old fashioned, god fearing, family values bubba.

You said "Do we value killing death & destruction - if so we should elect people like Bush & Blair."

Sarcasm, more opinion than values here.

You said "if not we should sweep them away and pull the troops out."

I respect the opinions of the next person, and will pull out if that is the final judgement of our Government or our President. But until then, I wouldn't conscienciously feel comfortable about leaving defenseless Iraqi' to fend for themselves. Not against people who would strap bombs to themselves.

You said "Let the Iraqis have national sovereignty."

Give us a chance to finish training them. They are getti

7

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 03:05:59

Nanaea in #5:

I don't really know how many died in Saddam's torture prisons. I do know that Saddam would've been killed by Iraqi government when he was a teenager if the US didn't protect him. I also know that a US Army officer did a report for the US Army about Abu Ghraib and said that at least 34 prisoners were tortured to death by US forces at that prison. I also know that for a long period of time many dead bodies have been found in & around Baghdad where the victims had been tortured. It has been very common that Baghdad civilians get kidnapped and then tortured by various means including electric drills before being killed. I think that the overall quantity of people tortured per week is much larger after Saddam than before Saddam.

Everything has gotten worse much worse for the Iraqis since the invasion. This includes the level of violence, the lack of basic services like electricity, the functioning of the economy, everything.

8

American,

USA 15/04/2007 03:08:09

Wally, I know there was at least one wmd before we got there. It was called zarqawi. The al qaeda in iraq.

9

American,

USA 15/04/2007 03:09:09

#6-DemSoldier- Have you heard of Salman Pak in Iraq?

10

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 03:10:28

DemSoldier in #6:

you said "You blame America for this? Do we supply the bombs? Do we strap it on them? Do we attack civilians with them?"

I can only answer you by referring you to #4 above. The US department of defense lost $2.3 trillion over approximately a 10 year period. An organization that loses 200 billion dollars a year and will not reveal how the money was spent or where it went is an organization that we can't trust. So in answer to your question we really don't know whether the US defense establishment caused this extra violence or not. They're capable of it. They could've done it. They lie frequently. They hide what they're doing. They're not honest.

Remember in Vietnam - Operation PHoenix. That was a program where elite US soldiers were recruited into a program where the main goal was to murder selected individuals, many of whom were civilians. And in central America in the 1980's there were many murders of civilians also and apparently orchestrated by the US government. Negroponte was the ambassador to El Salvador overwseeing it. and Bush brought Negroponte also to Iraq. So we really can't trust them. They really could be behind this extra violence.

Only thing we know for sure is that we should leave and we should get rid of this government that rules us.

11

Nanea,

Hawaii 15/04/2007 03:27:16

7. Wally, Arizona

You really are on their side! The electricity was issues were there long before 2003.

You said "I also know that for a long period of time many dead bodies have been found in & around Baghdad where the victims had been tortured."

Any rational person would assume if that were true it was either CNN exaggerating or they were tortured by insurgents from Iran or Syria, you however have already convicted the USA.

12

ImaDemSoldier,

15/04/2007 03:30:59

#9 American

I have, but I don't believe there were any references to suicide bombers in specific.

Why?

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials

13

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 03:36:45

11 Nanea - I don't watch CNN. The tv news and the rest of the mainstream mass media is garbage. You can't learn about reality on it.

But the United Nations' people even spoke about how many Iraqis have been killed & tortured prior to their death. Last year every day they were finding 50 or more bodies in Baghdad alone, and these bodies were just dumped after being tortured & killed. So I feel very comfortable in saying that the quantity of people tortured after the invasion is much much higher than the quantity before the invasion.

14

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 03:41:54

To All Re: Wally

Wally can drive you nuts if you let him. Don't. He's a very entertaining guy if you look at him as kind of a living Gary Larson cartoon. You know, talking cows, whales conspiring among themselves. You don't get this kind of stuff every day so relax and enjoy it.

He calls me Nimrod, which is fine with me, and I refer to him as proof that at least one government conspiracy theory is true. It has to do with a certain crashed space ship and a little place in the desert, not to far from where Wally lives now, called Area 51.

15

American,

USA 15/04/2007 03:46:04

#12-Soldier- Because I read many articles which claimed there was a terrorist training camp there, with a fuesalage (spelling?) of a plane. Supposedly, there was even a comment from a UN inspector who said he heard of Salman Pak, but did not check it out because it was off-limits (forget the exact reason why). Also, it was reported that one of the rivers (tigress or euphrates) tested positive for chemicals, but this was not proof that wmds were dumped there because the chemicals are the same chemicals that are used for pesticides. Although, I couldn't understand why pesticides would be needed in a river.

16

American,

USA 15/04/2007 03:49:55

#14-57Nomad-I sometimes feel sorry for Wally. And then, sometimes I think he may work for some lib group supported by George Soros.

17

ImaDemSoldier,

15/04/2007 03:55:48

You said "I can only answer you by referring you to #4 above. The US department of defense lost $2.3 trillion over approximately a 10 year period. An organization that loses 200 billion dollars a year and will not reveal how the money was spent or where it went is an organization that we can't trust. So in answer to your question we really don't know whether the US defense establishment caused this extra violence or not. They're capable of it. They could've done it. They lie frequently. They hide what they're doing. They're not honest."

And the ending of this could all be true. But it is not, fact. I'd like to think that I am a thinking man in disguise as a grunt lol. So, I will keep this in mind, but I will not believe it til it is proven.

You said "Remember in Vietnam - Operation PHoenix. That was a program where elite US soldiers were recruited into a program where the main goal was to murder selected individuals, many of whom were civilians. And in central America in the 1980's there were many murders of civilians also and apparently orchestrated by the US government. Negroponte was the ambassador to El Salvador overwseeing it. and Bush brought Negroponte also to Iraq. So we really can't trust them. They really could be behind this extra violence."

I don't really know a lot about the above. I mean like you said "They really could be behind this extra violence." I don't know this to be true. I need proof, not assumption.

You said "Only thing we know for sure is that we should leave and we should get rid of this government that rules us."

We? Ok, to a point, but not just yet. Not til the Iraqi Government can defend their citizens. As for change, it's all up to the people.

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials

18

ImaDemSoldier,

15/04/2007 03:58:10

Oops! Above meant for #10 Wally

19

,

15/04/2007 04:03:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

Guga,

Rockall 15/04/2007 04:04:55

If anyone wants information on civilians being killed, check out this article in the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007...

21

,

15/04/2007 04:10:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 04:11:26

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=14609

a Spanish judge says that whoever it was that decided that the US forces should invade Iraq should be put on trial for war crimes. that decision has caused a huge number of people to die. it has caused millions to flee Iraq has refugees. It has caused a huge disruption in Iraq that is a nightmare for the people of Iraq. And it has done nobody any good except for the private contractors & oil companies who either are or will be reaping huge profits from this decision.

23

,

15/04/2007 04:12:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

,

15/04/2007 04:14:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
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25

Gandalf the Great,

Slayer of Orcs 15/04/2007 04:14:58

Muslims killing muslims, who cares.

Islam is a medieval, intolerant, violent, sexist, bigoted excuse for religion, where parents encourage their children to commit mass murder through suicide. Let them get on with it.

Guga if you care so much, go and become a human shield and I'll talk to some buddies and arrange for you to be put out of your misery.

26

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 04:27:51

Henry II:

it is sad that the mass media does not communicate the realities. Iraq is a country of about 28 million people. Since the March 2003 invasion surely over 700,000 have died who would not otherwise have died. this was documented by the John Hopkins researchers using procedures encouraged by United Nations and peer reviewed by academics at Cambridge. Also 2,000,000 people have fled Iraq since the invasion. and another million & a half are internally displaced. No Iraq has become a hell. and who it was that invaded is responsible. that is not my opinion, that is a fact.

The huge expense of the war and the other over-spending on defense that the US is doing is also making it impossible for many Americans to have any kind of an income during retirement years. Because each US worker who makes less than 80 thousand a year must pay 16% of his paycheck to the government in the form of payroll tax that was originally slated to pay for social security & then for medicare too. but today 40% of that money collected goes to pay for the war. and so the money will not be left over to pay for the social security checks of these people.

Also, large numbers of soldiers who've returned from Iraq since the 2003 invasion have gotten sick. and there is not adequate care for them.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/6731

27

whatsyourname,

Canada 15/04/2007 04:32:22

you should all watch the movie starring Nicholes Cage, its based on a true story, LORD OF WAR, (wally you speak a lot of truth,

28

Abel,

New Zealand 15/04/2007 04:32:27

It is practically a civil war.
Most of these bomb attacks are not aimed at Americans. Why would leaving iraq end a religous war between Sunnis and Shi'ites?

The start of the war was not an invasion. The 'war' was against Saddams' regime, not the country. The country is our ally, while also partly its own enemy. These attacks may never end, so how can the 'war'?

Cheers Wally for the link, 2.3 tln missing, it's very interesting.

29

Guga,

Rockall 15/04/2007 04:35:59

#25 Fairy King. As you are so interested in the illegal use of civilians as human shields, try having a look at this article from the Sydney Morning Herald:

http://media.smh.com.au/?sy=smh&category=breaking+new...

30

Guga,

Rockall 15/04/2007 04:36:45

#21 Henry. Is the Washington Post a "pinko" liberal rag?

31

Guga,

Rockall 15/04/2007 04:39:27

#22 Wally. I reckon neither Bush nor Bliar will be holidaying in Spain.

32

ImaDemSoldier,

15/04/2007 04:47:54

#22 Wally

Some serious questions come to mind.

1. Who is this judge to determine so? I mean, he prosecuted another and believes he's the answer to Iraq?

2. Is he getting paid to do it? If so, who is paying him? If not, what is in it for him? I mean, he's getting media attention already. Is that his agenda?

3. Will he prosecute all the dead suicide bombers and their affiliations? Can he go after so called Terrorist Organizations? If so, can he go after Countries that support so called Terrorist Organizations?

4. How far can this go?

What am I to think about this?

You got a case, Charge him. You ain't going to charge him. Then this doesn't need to be reported. A lot of people don't like the war. This is just a bad form of bashing. A build up to a possible charge.

Totally one-sided aggression from a nobody. Kind of makes me think of personal gains, but that would be un-intelligent hearsay.

Kind of disappointing article Wally, just my opinion.

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials

33

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 04:55:25

http://www.alaskareport.com/z45741.htm

http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/articles/show/130203-%2...

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1231

above are some links about Iraq War news. Below are 2 links about people you'd think support Bush & his war-agenda, but don't.

http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/fomer_bush_speechwrit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvt8O2WT-9M

34

American,

USA 15/04/2007 04:56:17

#29-Guga, I saw the TV video of the israeli soldiers using the "human shield". I also noticed that the "human shield" was arrested, along with the others that were hiding in the apartment building. Could it be possible that the "human shield" in that incident had ties to the others that were arrested? Of course! The Washington Post has liberal rag writers, but probably not as bad as the ny times, and boston globe and la times.

35

,

15/04/2007 05:27:14
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36

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 05:27:21

DemSoldier in 32:

I don't blame you for not liking the article I linked to in 22. But when that one judge said that Chile's Pinochet should be put on trial it made world-wide news. and I only threw it out for consideration.

It is a very serious matter when a war is started and much chaos & death occurs as a result. There should be a just reason for doing this. and in this case there was no such just cause. Just my opinion.

37

Guga,

Rockall 15/04/2007 05:32:44

#35 Trisha. Whatever floats your boat dearie.

38

Guga,

Rockall 15/04/2007 05:36:29

#34 American. The video I suggested having a look at in todays Sydney Morning Herald (see #29) was yet another instance of using civilians as human shields. If you have a look at it, you'll note that it is an American telling them what they are doing is illegal.

39

,

15/04/2007 05:42:48
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40

,

15/04/2007 05:54:58
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Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 531888, Article id was mapped to record!
41

American,

USA 15/04/2007 06:04:04

#38- Guga, I saw a little bit of the video in #29. I can't think of what state that "American" you're talking about is from, because that accent doesn't sound familiar to me. Have you ever heard American accents? They don't show why these 2 were stopped. What makes you think human shields wouldn't get killed by fellow palestinians? Have you ever heard of honor killing?

42

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 06:50:35

5. Nanea, Hawaii

Yes, Saddam was a brutal tyrant. Tell me, what brutal, violent state helped him to power? Which terrorist state supported him during his most brutal oppression? Suharto was much worse than Saddam on the brutality scale. What brutal states supported Suharto and why didn't those same terrorist states 'liberate' the people of Indonesia?

WALLY: "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."

Nomad: I read your posts with interest and, politics aside, I'm sure we would get on fine in the real world. However, my respect diminishes by a decade when I see what you write about Wally. He questions the orthodox perspective. Surely you regard that as an indication of intellect?

Idiot Boy: Yes, he passed the test to get into the Texas Home Guard. He scraped through the test, Nomad. You say that Idiot Boy achieved many things including getting into Yale and Harvard. You also say that the idea of inherited prestige ('class' discussion) is alien to the US. So, how many kids in the USA would get into Harvard with SAT scores: 566 verbal and 640 maths?

Great advert for Yale & Harvard:

"The thing that's wrong with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur."

"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."

"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

Bush completed a History Bachelor course at YALE and then:

"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."

"The future will be better tomorrow."

God, I wish I went to Yale to do History!

He then did a Masters in Business at Harvard:

His oil businesses failed (I'll ignore the bailout by his Saudi buddies, linked to bin Laden) but he

43

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 07:11:26

Guga, Trisha, American

It was Reuters report; not exactly a bastion of 'liberal' view. Here's an evidently more acceptably right wing reporting of the incident:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/world...

44

ImaDemSoldier,

15/04/2007 09:26:53

#33 Wally

Interesting 1st link. I didn't say they weren't dieing. I said they thanked me for being there, trying. It's interesting how you can take 2 views of the same scene.

They said, the people are dieing, it's worse. No arguments there. But they stop short as well. They forget the part where the US Armed Services are trying. We the US Armed Forces won't be able to change this, alone. But the Iraqi Government in place should. No guarantees, just hope and faith. Maybe more support all around. Not for us, but for those that are dieing. Seems everyone forgets about them. I Don't think I have ever not mentioned them.

2nd link, just as interesting. But, I think I will find out about this one on my own, when I get back to Iraq. It won't be hard. I will try to get back to you on this, when I'm there. So you know for yourself.

Link 3, just takes me back to.. Who is really to blame? They hide behind civi's in civi clothes. They blame the killings on our presence, and then they blow up more civi's. The people are so scared of them, they refuse to speak out, point them out, or help. Fearing for their lives. I don't blame them.

Hard to touch link 4. It's one man, speaking out for what gains? Yeah, this one is on the fence for me.

The last link leaves me with just as many questions as they have theories. I won't touch that one.

There are probably as many links to disprove these links. But I will remain open, til I know what is true.

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials

45

ImaDemSoldier,

15/04/2007 09:48:43

#44 FinnKing

Unfortunately, there are those like these Israeli's all over Gods green earth. Every race has them. I mean that is just stupid. I didn't read in to it, but were those men civilians (the Palestinians)? Those soldiers should be protecting those that can not defend themselves. That just p***es me off.

Question for ya. How are you taking the news about you all joining the NRF? Being the first one in for NATO instead of the US. I'd like to hear your opinion on this. If it's no trouble?

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials

46

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 11:52:36

46. ImaDemSoldier

MRF? Did a search but what I found didn't make sense. Please elaborate.

NATO: I, like many Europeans, regard that as a terrorist organisation that has no mandate from from the people who pay for it.

Explain the NRF thing, please.

47

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 11:53:55

46. ImaDemSoldier

Oops, sorry, forgot: 1st para: I agree, there are idiots exploiting folk all over the world.

48

Qamar Yousafzai,

Pakistan 15/04/2007 12:20:36

Dilemma of the Time!
-------------------------by Qamar Yousafzai
qamaryousafzai@yahoo.com

It is understood that durring cold war the capitalist countries were helping the Afghan people and there leaders againt Russia and these countries also termed the people of Afghanistan as the valourous of the world,USA was the first in helping these people.At the same moment Pakistan played the role of front line state in the Afghan war against Russia.Now these countries are propagating those warriors to be terrorists and trying to abolish them.Now the question arises that who is responsible for such dilemmas in the world?Its a matter of meditation!Now the capitalist countries are trying to abolish those warriors from the world who were termed by them the brave and freedom loving people.
The war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq is nothing more than the strive for energy resourcess like natural gas of the Central Asian Nations and oil in Iraq by the USA and allied forcess.
Russia is able now in a days to make obstacles for the capitalists but She is also silent in there quest for energy,although she has restricted the European Countries to some extent by having control over a large range of natural resources like Gas,oil and other minerals but this is not enough.
The question is not just the strive for resources but it is of the hatred spreading among the nations of the world.A large part of the world is strugling in the same direction,some for safeguarding and some for exploitation.So the nations of the world have abolished peace and harmony of human beings.In the war of the Global powers all the destructions came and come in the destiny of small nations.Millions of people died in thse kind of wars like in Bosnia,Chechniya,Vietnamme,Afghanistan and Iraq etc.
Who is responsible for these matters?think!think!....
by qamaryousafzai@yahoo.com

49

sandy,

USA 15/04/2007 12:42:00

#7--Wally--link explaining Iraq's economy......

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16241340/site/newsweek/

50

Djookers,

15/04/2007 14:04:42

#50 sandy, USA

Interesting link, not an "official" site as you and Lynne like to say but it appears that business continues in Iraq.

I found it interesting that to back up the headline:

"Blood and Money
In what might be called the mother of all surprises, Iraq's economy is growing strong, even booming in places."

the article quotes non governmental sources as saying GDP growth of 17% while the one official body (The world Bank) has the figure at 4%, seems like a bit of spin in there somewhere.

It seems that the biggest success story has been the mobile phone company, it is used twice in the article to show how well everything is going.
I wonder if the reason everyone in Iraq is desperate to get a mobile phone could have anything to do with the fact that in 2003, as part of GWB's shock and awe, all the telephone exchanges in the country were bombed, and no longer function.

The last paragraph shows the authors and therefore the whole articles bias:
"But again, that's the remarkable thing. In a business climate that is inhospitable, to say the least, companies like Iraqna are thriving. The withdrawal of a certain great power could drastically reduce the foreign money flow, and knock the crippled economy flat."

51

,

15/04/2007 14:53:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 532931, Article id was mapped to record!
52

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 14:58:01

#30 Guga

Is the WaPo a liberal rag? Are you kidding? Where do you live? It is and everybody knows it. They don't try to hide it.

53

Pony Car,

PA 15/04/2007 15:05:06

54. 57Nomad

I say it comes in 3rd place, right behind the NY Times & the LA Times. It's pure rubbish. I live in PA and the Post calls me once a year asking me if I'd like to subscribe, I just laugh at them and tell I would never subscribe to such a biased rag like the post. If they were not biased why would they say "You must be republican"?

54

,

15/04/2007 15:06:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 532959, Article id was mapped to record!
55

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 15:07:08

#43 Finnking,

In the US there is a famous baseball player named Yogi Berra. To him are attributed many malaprop, the most famous of which is, "it's deja vu all over again." The thing is, he never said it. I would like to hold up your spotty punctuation and your testy response to my using it as an example of the pot and the kettle. You brush your mistakes off and slag others for the same thing. It's called "Attribution Error." Look it up.

56

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 15:11:53

#55 Pony Car

There is a fierce competition among them as to which one can out Goebbels the other.

57

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 15:22:53

I get a laugh out of King Nimrod's characterizations myself. But I note that neither Lynne nor King Nimrod or anyone really wants to think much about the info I put up in #4. That one link I put up with Rumsfeld's speech from that day is from a '.mil' web site, it is an official department of defense site. and in that speech Rumsfeld acknowledges that 'by some estimates' $2.3 trillion disappeared. But I saw on tv the accountants who were making this assertion, they said in their press conference that $2.3 trillion is missing, that it came through the pentagon and is no longer there, but that they can't tell how it was spent. That is a very serious thing. That is a lot of money. We cannot really describe it as anything but a massive criminal conspiracy. And keep in mind that the government itself said that the part of the pentagon wiped out by the attack on September 11, 2001 was a part occupied by accountants.

We no longer have a 'free' country if the government can just spend $2.3 trillion and not tell us what happened to the money. For those who always like to blame either the Republicans or the Democrats I note that this missing money happened over the terms of both Republican & Democrat presidents.

In response to your laughing I'd say that our government is compromised. Our Congress doesn't even have authority over spending of money if the executive branch can spend $2.3 trillion and not tell how it is spent.

Roswell is in far eastern New Mexico, it would take maybe 8 hours at least for me to drive there. Area 51 is in central Nevada, it would take maybe 10 hours for me to drive there.

58

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 15:27:06

#59 Wally,

"Roswell is in far eastern New Mexico, it would take maybe 8 hours at least for me to drive there. Area 51 is in central Nevada, it would take maybe 10 hours for me to drive there."

Sad but true. How Wally longs for those precrash days when he could have made those trips in picoseconds on board his late, beloved The Spirit of Alpha Centauri.

59

sandy,

USA 15/04/2007 15:28:59

#56--Lynne--i'll take the pledge too!! never to yell at "Wally", ever-ever, again!!

Wally, forgive me! i knew nothing of your trauma, from your "catastrophic reentry":)

60

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 15:46:08

I don't know why you guys want to talk about space aliens. I've never talked about space aliens on this site.

Because I speak about things not spoken of in the mainstream mass media that should be spoken of I am a space alien.

61

sandy,

USA 15/04/2007 15:49:38

#4--Wally--i read your link to the Rumsfeld speech & it is true & was reported in all news at the time, & if all Gov't agencies were audited, we would find 10/times that amt. missing.....i think the "missing DOD money" is at the clinton library!! ya think?

62

sandy,

USA 15/04/2007 15:56:45

#62--Wally--i didn't mean to infer you're a "space alien", it's just i feel i know you better, thanks to your friend "57Nomad"-aka-"Nimrod", & will appreciate your posts more in the future.

63

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 15:57:05

#59 Wally

"Cannot be ascribed to anything but a giant criminal conspiracy."

Really, is that right? Wally where did you get your information? Wasn't it from the DoD and Rummy himself? Come on, Wally. You are saying these guys are criminal geniuses who heisted a couple of trillion bucks but then announced it, like idiots, in an open speech and had it printed where it could be seen by everyone.

We have discussed this before. A thing cannot be itself and not itself, the Law of Non-contradiction. Idiots or geniuses, which is it. Also, that speech was delivered in 2001. Consequently the 2 tril in question must have disappeared during the previous administration. So, an interesting conspiratorial question arises. Wally are you saying that this conspiracy runs so deep and is so insidious that George Bush and Bill Clinton were in on it together? Now I am scared.

64

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 15:57:35

#64 Sandy

Great minds!

65

sandy,

USA 15/04/2007 15:57:59

later.......

66

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 15:58:35

#64 Sandy,


That's King Nimrod, if you please.

67

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 16:03:40

Sandy, if you want to have a peasant's mentality that is your choice, but I prefer not to.

The theft of this money started under George HW Bush presidency, continued under Clinton and then continued under next Bush. So yes most of the years were under Clinton when these thefts occurred.

The whole idea that we shouldn't have proper accounting and proper audits to find out how money is spent in any agency is ridiculous. and if you go along with it, then you do have a peasant's mentality where you think that the people who rule over us are by divine right superior and proper that they take whatever we produce and put in their own pockets.

We're talking about 200 billion dollars a year gone missing. That is a lot of money. All social security spending each year is around 450 billion.

It's as if the grudges between the democrats & the republicans are so great that any crime can be committed as long as leaders of both parties participate. This issue was brought before the nation on the evening news of all the major propaganda media outlets on September 10, 2001. and then it was forever forgotten and never spoken of again. and there's no effort to do anything about it. as you all can see - it is taboo to even speak of it. In Amerika it is taboo to speak any knowledge that is not also spoken on the tv. It is taboo also to have any point of view on any issue if that point of view is not also spoken on tv.

68

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 16:09:49

King Nimrod try to follow this logic. The $2.3 trillion was spent in a manner that is not approved by the US Congress. Therefore it is criminal. and a bunch of people did do this over a long period of time through an organized fashion. Therefore it was a conspiracy. That the secretary of Defense admitted that it happened does not mean that it did not happen. The Rumsfeld speech was just an acknowledgement that the old order's been overthrown, that the United States does not do things per the Constitution any more, that a new group is in charge and can do with the United States whatever it wants. Remember, the next day the complainers inside the pentagon who don't like this new order were killed. This sets an example to everyone in the government that they should accept the criminal behavior which is becoming more & more the norm now.

so yes, there's no other way to describe it - a criminal conspiracy.

69

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 16:20:14

King Nimrod it is not just about the missing $2.3 trillion. It is about who decides how the money is spent. Does the US Congress approve a budget and direct the money spending per the Constitution or is it just a token body that exists to fool the population.

And it is illogical to assume that they're not likewise stealing more money each year. Are they pocketing the money? Are they building something secret? Are they diverting the money to purposes they don't want to tell us about? We don't know the answers exactly. But it is logical to assume that it is still going on. During the 10 years prior to 2001 the defense budgets were usually about 300 billion. But they admitted they lost 200 billion a year. It seems the pentagon was really spending much more than their official budget. Today the official budget of pentagon is 550 billion. But they get extra funding just for the wars and that is around 250 billion a year. So the amount of money directed at the pentagon is massive. and how do we know that corruption doesn't take a lot of it? Without proper accounting we don't know.

Let's also not forget that the Congress instructed the pentagon several times to buy body armor and vehicle armor for troops in Iraq and the pentagon failed to do this for a long time. That is another instance where they simply ignored their legal responsibilities per the constitution. It used to be that the pentagon jumped when congress said to spend money in a certain manner and did in fact follow through to do that. But with the body armor they failed to do this.

And then there's been many instances where federal law enforcement people are simply not responsive in their testimony before Congress. There is an attitude of contempt from the defense & law enforcement people in the federal government for the US Congress. The elected representatives are no longer in charge is what it all means.

and people are afraid to see this. and without th

70

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 16:29:28

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=50201

here is a link that pulls together other links all concerning the death of John O'Neil. O'Neil was a top FBI investigator of Al Qaeda during the 1990's. He was very upset that his superiors would not allow him to keep investigating even though he felt he was making great progress. He continued investigating without the support of his superiors. Then he was fired. He was quickly hired also by a private company. And promptly killed his first day on the job.

John O'Neil was a war hero from Vietnam days. and he spent 25 years in the FBI. For any of the Americans reading this, if you have the patience you may look into these matters.

71

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 17:15:53

#71 Wally

From Wally:

"And it is illogical to assume that they're not likewise stealing more money each year."

Wally, you have not made any case whatsoever that the money was stolen. Can you please support that? Can you tell us the names of the thieves?

72

ImaDemSoldier,

15/04/2007 18:04:13

#47 FinnKing

NRF = NATO Response Force. Unit of Thousands. Made up of every branch of Military, even it's Special Forces. Your Military.

This unit is to be sent in, when deemed an emergency by NATO. The US, is no longer going to be going in first.

It's a thankless job, with even more thankless critics. I wouldn't wish this position on my worse enemy.

Here, try this: http://virtual.finland.fi/stt/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=1...

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials

73

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 18:21:26

King Nimrod in 73:

the press conference that the government gave on September 10, 2001 indicated that the money was missing. $2.3 trillion. if it were $5 missing, then I could say that it wasn't a crime. but when $2.3 trillion is missing, it is a crime by definition. that should be obvious to any casual observer and requires no proof.

Some accountants wanted us to know about it. They agitated internally to be able to have a press conference and tell people. they were allowed to do this on September 10. and then on September 11 it seems that they likely were killed. and afterwards we just have a secretary of defense (rumsfeld) who says that the money was lost because of bureaucratic inertia (if you read his speech) and there is no effort to find out what happened or to hold anyone responsible.

People around the world take note - this is how the propaganda works. It is obvious to anyone that the money was stolen. If you think that the US Constitution is in effect and that money spent outside the approved budget of the US Congress is illegal, then obviously a massive crime occurred. Yet many Americans are unable to deduce this. Unable because to do so would be thinking an un-approved thought. It is the mass media that tells us what approved thoughts are. As the mass media has not described this incident as theft or criminal or improper, therefore it is not.

74

IH8 censors,

15/04/2007 18:26:20

60. 57Nomad

Too funny. I do enjoy Wally's conspiracy theories, at least he does not get mean like most of the zany liberals out there.

75

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 18:48:32

I protest IH8 censors to being characterized as a liberal. None of the things I've spoken of have anything to do with the liberal-conservative paradigm.

I do not think that bush is a conservative. I do not think that Clinton was a liberal.

We are ruled by people who don't fit into the liberal-conservative paradigm because they have a different agenda. Look at this fellow Bush who is referred to as a 'conservative', but bush is a huge expander of government, both in terms of its money spending and in terms of its raw power. and he is disrespectful of the constitution in that he has encouraged the passing of legislation that over-rules it.

Do we want to have a 'rule of law' or a 'rule of men'. If we want the former, then we'd be very concerned about the missing $2.3 trillion as that money disappeared outside of the budget approved by the congress in the legal procedure for deciding how the taxpayer's money gets spent. But because I point this issue out and raise concerns I am a liberal. It is nonsense to think that liberals are for rule of law and conservatives are against it. But that is what the bush supporters tell us - anyone who opposes Bush & his people is a liberal.

I've pointed out before that a huge critic of bush today is Paul Craig Roberts. He's well into his 70's, but he is very prolific in his newspaper columns that he writes. You can find them easily on the internet, but none of them are in newspapers. He used to be carried by over 100 newspapers, but now by none. In the 1970's he was a very prominent person in the conservative movement. Then after 2001 he began to criticize bush vehemently. Now he is not published in any newspapers as a result. and he would be called a liberal because he's anti-Bush. But in the 1970's & 1980's he was called 'Mr. Conservative' as a nick-name.

76

Rita,

15/04/2007 18:50:06

I think that the suiside bombers will find that the virgins they will meet have to stay that way--- would that be hell???

77

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 18:51:20

74. ImaDemSoldier

Ah, sorry, okay.

First, I’m not a Finn.

The people of Finland are very much against joining NATO. The main reason being the 3% of GDP that must be spent on weapons each year. These weapons are highly specified and, big surprise, they are already available from the US and 'uk' purveyors of Death. Also, in terms of trade, Finland is now making good ground with links to Russia; after 60 years of mainly hostile relationship with the neighbouring state.

The questions will be: A vote on joining NATO or no vote? How will the propaganda machine alter the current opinion of the masses? Interestingly, I have just shown your link to two Finn friends, one of whom is involved in the military, and they had never heard of it.

Every Finn male must either attend military training for 12 months or spend more time behind a desk. Many are saying that is simply unnecessary these days. They do send Finns to Kosovo, Afghan etc on UN duty.

If Finn business gets the not from the Russian state that joining NATO will not harm trade with them, the newspapers will go into pro NATO propaganda drive, there will be a (once only) vote and the Finn taxpayer will end up subsidising predominately US/'uk' share holders.

78

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 19:05:47

#75 Wally

This from Wally:

"but when $2.3 trillion is missing, it is a crime by definition. that should be obvious to any casual observer and requires no proof."

This (below) is the source of Wally's statement above. It is from a speech given by Rummy at the Pentagon.

"The technology revolution has transformed organizations across the private sector, but not ours, not fully, not yet. We are, as they say, tangled in our anchor chain. Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building because it's stored on dozens of technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible."


You will notice that it doesn't say the money is missing. It doesn't imply in any way, shape, or form that the money was stolen. What it said was that the financial technological infrastructure in the DOD couldn't keep pace with the programs.

All insidious inferences are a creation of your own imagination, Wally. No one said the money was missing. Please try to keep the following in mind because it will save you a good deal of confusion and frustration.

When you make a claim in the form of "A therefore B," it doesn't make a bit of difference how clear it might be to you, you have to support it without referencing A.

Comprende, muchacho? You can't say "They can't track it (A), therefore it was stolen by a criminal conspiracy (B)." And then try to prove it by saying "they can't track it (A).

If you want to assert that B follows A you have to prove it. You have claimed it, now please provide your proof.

79

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 19:10:49

57. 57Nomad

Classic Nomad Posting Level 7 (out of 10).

You said that Idiot Boy was a 'stud dude' in the middle of a post brimming with adulation for the man.

I pointed out my opinion that he was dim as hell.

You reply with a crit on my punctuation, saying that Idiot Boy would not make the mistakes I made. You added that Idiot Boy is a Yale and Harvard graduate.

So, I simply demonstrate that, going by what the guy says (each one has references, by the way), then I really don't rate Yale or Harvard. I gave his SATs and asked how many non-connected, poor people would gain entrance based on these SATs. No reply.

And here's the Classic Nomad Posting bit: you post a spurious set of comments about my punctuation. (punctuation has few set rules and varies from place to place anyway).

I didn't "brush off" my mistakes because I couldn't care less; but you say I do.

I didn't "call the kettle" anything; but you say I do.

Then the Classic Nomad again: Having completely rewritten the argument to suit yourself (Control Freakery? Ego Issues? Who knows?) you accuse ME of "Attribution Error"!

I simply said that I regarded Idiot Boy as an idiot. It was you that did the rest.

I give you a 7/10 on the Classic Nomad Posting scale. You've done better!

BTW: I wasn't being "testy" at all. I just think it's funny that a man of your evident stature and intellect could possible regard Idiot Boy as a 'stud dude'.

80

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 19:17:04

Lynne and Sandy

Like many European posters here, I sometimes tire of the highly polarised, indeed binary, arguments and opinions between folk from the USA.

May I just say that I am really pleased to see neo-cons like yourselves applauding an arch Liberal like Nomad. It's good to see that, despite the polarisation in US politics, you right wingers can get along well with the Liberals in your midst.

Keep it up!

81

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 19:22:50

King Nimrod, I've seen clips from the nightly news on this and the words used were '2.3 trillion dollars is missing according to the accountants'. that means that the accountants have proof that the money was received by the pentagon and then disappeared in an unknown manner. and at the pentagon press conference on September 10 that is exactly how they said it. You're quoting from Rumsfeld speech where he whitewashed it.

you can live in dream-world if you want King Nimrod. but when that amount of money is missing, then it is a very serious matter and it indicates theft.

They sometimes give us fantastic news stories. This news story they gave us on September 10, 2001. and then the next morning it was forgotten. and is now never mentioned. But I've seen the clips right from nightly news. and at the pentagon press conference where they announced it Rumsfeld was not there, it was run by the accountants themselves.

82

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 19:26:09

#82 Finnking

When did I say that connections don't help getting admitted to Yale or Harvard? I said no such thing.

What I said was that if you are going to call someone an idiot then you can expect to be asked what your qualifications are to make that judgment. What I did was to point out W's history and ask you to give a comparison with yours. I don't know you personally and maybe you are a noted scholar or scientist. If you are then let us know. But if you're an ordinary guy like the rest of us here then just say so. You can then say, "IMHO so and so is an idiot."

IMHO, W is a stud dude. Your opinion may be different but it's just another opinion.

83

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 19:33:56

#84 Wally

Wally said:

"King Nimrod, I've seen clips from the nightly news on this and the words used were '2.3 trillion dollars is missing according to the accountants'. that means that the accountants have proof that the money was received by the pentagon and then disappeared in an unknown manner."

Here we go again. You've seen clips? Prove it. First prove you've seen the clips and that the alleged clips were accurate and that they had any connection whatsoever to the topic at hand. Then this:

"that means that the accountants have proof that the money was received by the pentagon and then disappeared in an unknown manner."

Wally, it proves no such thing. We just went over this. You cannot prove your claim by restating your claim. You must support your claims with actual evidence not your personal suppositions.

84

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 19:39:45

#84 Finnking

We American sometimes tire of the uninformed attempts at making points by applying labels to individuals and then arguing to the labels instead of the case.

85

Lynne,

USA 15/04/2007 19:44:16

I have read and listened to more garbage hurled at the President. Does anyone honestly believe he does not read the newspapers in the morning? Does anyone honestly believe you can become President of these United States without having some smarts?
All you manage to do is denigrate the man. He has a belief, he stands by that belief, and because this war did not end in , lets say 4 years, a time limit,by the way, given by no one, you call him an idiot and a chimp.
You all look at the surface of things...very few of you have looked at the whole picture.

We are not just fighting the insurgents, we are also fighting the extremists who want to see us dead. DEAD people, all of us. The have crept into our societies; they have made it difficult for us. The latest is that They insist on separate sinks in bathrooms, so they can wash their feet before they pray. We are the infidels. We are. Yet THEY flock to our shores for a better life, or to kills us. There is no in between.

Most of you liberal...blame the US, NOT THE TERRORISTS. They go off killing each other, and still you blame the US. What is wrong with you!!!

They strap bombs on their bodies and we get the blame. And Wally, if I hear, ther were no suicide bombers before we got their I will scream!!! There were..Saddam was paying the families.

But I digress, you are aiding and abetting the terrorists with this junk...AND THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT..Friction between americans..DIVIDE AND CONQUER. You play right into their hands.

Do not think that what you say here doesn't get back to them..it does. There are cells in most countries, Just waiting.

This is a war, we were told from the beginning, was going to take a long time..It is a different kind of war.

86

Djookers,

15/04/2007 19:59:09

#88 Lynne

"But I digress, you are aiding and abetting the terrorists with this junk...AND THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT..Friction between americans..DIVIDE AND CONQUER. You play right into their hands."

Glad the friction is just between americans, that leaves us Scots out of it............

87

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 19:59:41

#88 Lynne

Please take heart from the following observation by Jonathon Swift, 1667-1745:

"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

True then, true now.

88

Djookers,

15/04/2007 20:02:42

#88 Lynne

forgot to add, that kind of attitude is the same one that makes "americans" stand in france/germany/etc and bitch that nobody speaks english. Then you sit there and wonder why the world doesn't like you....

89

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 20:09:25

88. Lynne, USA

Ah, sorry. When I saw you in support of Nomad I assumed you had toned down your rabid anti-liberal routine. My mistake.

I have NEVER called Idiot Boy a 'chimp', not me.

"Saddam was paying the families": Okay. Does the US government provide any support for families who have lost loved ones while being involved in the activity of killing people?

"What is wrong with you!!!": You mean, "What is wrong with the Rest Of The World?" Nothing really, apart from 700 odd US military bases, the US invading 25 (or so, I loose count) countries, the US funding of Islamic lunatics, etc. Maybe Lynne, just maybe, the ROTW is less indoctrinated than you are.

Tell me, seriously, before the latest bogeyman was clearly identified for your consumption who did you hate? Before the Muslims, who did you hate?

There are 40 million Muslims in Europe and I have never seen different sinks!

Why do you hate so much?

Nomad will be seriously hurt that you have turned against Liberals like him. I thought you had changed. ;-)

90

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 20:12:48

87. 57Nomad

WHAT? Are you now saying that you are NOT an rabid Liberal?

I wish you would make your mind up!

91

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 20:16:59

90. 57Nomad,

Ah, sorry, Liberal normality returns. You are quoting from an Irishman who ran away to England rather than fight for the freedom of his country.

92

IH8 censors,

15/04/2007 20:19:21

78. Wally, Arizona

Wally, please accept my apology. Do you then consider yourself an Independent or possibly a Green party member?

93

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 20:21:07

King Nimrod - I've seen a written story that was from one of the big networks and I've seen a video clip of what they showed on the evening news both. and I remember it being reported on a discussion forum that day even. It was reported by many mainstream media outlets once and on September 10. and I've given you 2 links on it. and you still don't think it was a news story.

Folks, please follow the logic going through Nimrod's mind. If this story is for real, then it should be followed up on and not only that there should be investigations and people punished etc. But none of that happens, so Nimrod will assume it was never reported in the first place. That is how things are in America. The truth is determined by whether or not a story or story-line is repeated over & over in national news. It can be reported once in local news and that doesn't make it true. It can be spoken in court testimony and that doesn't make it true. It can even be reported in some mainstream media on a limited basis, and that doesn't make it true. but when that mainstream media repeats a story over & over that is what finally makes a story true in the minds of the Americans. and all else is false in their minds no matter what evidence. because in their minds if it was true and if it is important, then it would be on the news and reported over & over.

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/pastnews.php...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/mai...

94

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 20:23:08

#91 Dj,


Dj said:

"Then you sit there and wonder why the world doesn't like you...."

Dj, what in the world gave you the badly mistaken idea that Americans spend so much as a single second wondering about what the French and Germans think? We don't. We don't care what they think and if you think their opinion of us is low it can't compare to how low our opinion of them is.

The city of Warsaw held resisted the German's about as long as the entire country of France. As for the Germans, this is the country that gifted the world with Karl Marx, Kaiser Wilhelm, Adolph Hitler, World War I, World War II, nazis, commies, concentration camps, the blitzkrieg, and techno music. You may want to be liked by them but we don't.

95

Wally,

Arizona 15/04/2007 20:26:35

Ih8 Censors in 95:

I used to consider myself a conservative. but I began to dislike the Republicans when I was reading in 1989 about things that George HW Bush was actually doing as president. Over a long period of time myself and many other conservatives have refused to support the Republicans. It was not until summer of 2001 that I finally became anti-Republican. and in fact voted for 'Idiot Boy' in 2000.

but I am generally against the leaders of both parties. I think each party has a small number of politicians worth voting for. The Republicans have Ron Paul. The democrats have Dennis Kucinich. I would also have been happy to vote for Cynthia McKinney. Reagan was my hero in the 1980's.

96

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 20:27:54

#93 Finnking,

This from Finnking:

"WHAT? Are you now saying that you are NOT an rabid Liberal?"

Still with the labels, Finnking? It's unbecoming of you. Do you have anything of substance to say today?

97

Djookers,

15/04/2007 20:32:45

#97 No,

just in case you missed it there was an etc in there for the rest of the world. What about them.

That whole rant, France, Germany. Just proved my point really, thanks for that.

98

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 20:35:51

97. 57Nomad,

Even for you, that's an amazingly liberal take on European history! Did you go to Yale too?

What country employed the Nazis to hunt and kill the anarchists in north Italy? Of these bad Nazis, how many entered US society?

Adolph wasn't German.

Concentration camps were not the 'brainchild' of the Germans.

"TECHNO" started in Detroit.

99

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 20:37:51

99. 57Nomad

Just pointing out your liberal inclinations. Why would you assume that was using the term pejoratively?

I am an anarchist. You are a neo-liberal. No name calling involved!

100

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 20:39:56

#96 Wally

This from Wally:

"It was reported by many mainstream media outlets once and on September 10. and I've given you 2 links on it. and you still don't think it was a news story."

Wally the links don't say what you say they say. They don't say anything of the kind. You are drawing conclusions and then saying that what is said in the publication equals what your interpretation of them is. They don't. I quoted Rummy's statement to support what I am saying. He never said the money is missing, he never said the money was stolen. This is your logical procession. Not tracked=lost=stolen=criminal conspiracy.

These are nothing but personal musings on your part and you can't expect anyone to take them seriously unless you provide proof. Just saying one equals the other doesn't prove anything other that what's going on in Wally's head at a particular moment. That's all fine and dandy for Wally but it's kind of shaky to be basing national policy on.

101

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 20:41:49

#103 Finnking

This from Finnking:

"I am an anarchist. You are a neo-liberal. No name calling involved!"

Sentence one and two contradict sentence three.

102

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 20:46:25

#102 TSW

I know Hitler was born in Austria but he was chancellor of Germany and the head of the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany, hence the attribution. I didn't know that the British set up camps to methodically exterminate the Boers.

103

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 20:49:43

105. 57Nomad

No they don't. Unless you assume that only your cultural use of the English language is the 'correct' one. Sounds a tad anal to me and some, I’m sure, would say positively self-centred.

What's wrong with the label "neo-Liberal" being applied to you? It seems highly accurate to me, going by your postings.

104

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 20:50:36

106. 57Nomad

"I didn't know that the British set up camps to methodically exterminate the Boers."

and the "techno"?

105

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 20:56:38

#107 Finnking

Glad you asked. Labels carry with them a bundle of characteristics. When you ascribe a label to an individual then you are attributing those characteristics to that person as if they were a genetic component of that individual. I you are an X and X has the following characteristics then you also have those characteristics. It's a mistake to judge people that way because the one doesn't necessarily follow the other. It is also a mistake for a person to sit still for being labeled that way.

106

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 21:04:50

#108 Finnking

Waddaya mean, "and the techno?" Have you ever heard techno? Now there's a modern day crime against humanity! Germany, the land that rhythm forgot.

107

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 15/04/2007 21:05:03

Could someone tell me what the difference is between the Shi'ite's and the Suni" factions? Does anyone on here know why they are now aring factions in Iraq?

108

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 15/04/2007 21:06:03

"aring" should be "waring" factions, sorry, mispelled.

109

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 21:10:33

#106 TSW

I appreciate the clarification. All war is barbarous, once it starts all sides participating share in the barbarism.

One of my favorite books is W.S. Churchill's four volume, "A History of the English Speaking Peoples." I know that he gained a great deal of public attention by chronicling his exploits during the Boer War but I don't know anything in depth about the war itself.

110

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:14:30

109. 57Nomad

I agree about labels; they can be constraining. That's one of the many reasons I prefer the rather general term 'Libertarian Socialist' or ' Anarchist'. It leaves room for development.

You seem okay posting, "Is the WaPo a liberal rag?" using the same label as I used. Or saying of Wally, he's a " living Gary Larson cartoon". You use the term "liberal" quite often: "sometimes I think he may work for some lib group supported by George Soros." in reference to Wally again.

Then again, you also post," Before we judge others we should first fly a parsec in their AstroWarper."

How true.

A bit like critising the entire countries of France and Germany, you know? Also, on the ego front, "We don't care what they think and if you think their opinion of us is low it can't compare to how low our opinion of them is. ", well, speaking for the entire population of the USA is a bit much, no?

Aye, yer a affy lad fir a liberal!

111

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:16:13

112. CombatVet68

The 'uk' couldn't sort them out either! It's a huge topic Vet. Try WIKI for a starting point.

112

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 21:19:48

#112 Vet'68

A good way to look at it is to view it in terms of the difference between Catholics and Protestants. Each views the other as apostates from the True Religion. The Sunnis are based, if you can use that term, in Saudi Arabia. For the most part, although not exclusively, the countries of the Arabian peninsula, Jordan, Syria and western Iraq are Sunni. Eastern Iraq and Iran are Shi'ite. Pakistan is split but I believe that the Sunnis are the majority.

The reason for the split between the two sects goes back to the immediate descendants of Mohamed and that's all I know about it. This is for certain, they hate each others guts.

113

57Nomad,

california 15/04/2007 21:20:49

#115 Finnking,

Yeah, so?

114

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:20:57

111. 57Nomad,

Techno

It never started in Germany. A USA product.

(Yes, I agree, I too think it awfull).

You may be thinking of 'Industrial'. In my opinion, just as odious.

115

Bikewoman,

15/04/2007 21:22:47

#106 Nomad

"I didn't know that the British set up camps to methodically exterminate the Boers."

Just a point on terminology. Concentration camps (Konzentrationslagern) were not used to exterminate the Jews in WWII either. Concentration camps were just that - camps designed to amass and hold people in one location. Often those concentration camps had an extermination camp (Vernichtungslager) adjacent. That is where the mass killings were carried out, as the name implies. Thus Auschwitz was a concentration camp while Birkenau, part of the same compound, was the associated extermination camp.

116

Lynne,

USA 15/04/2007 21:29:58

Finnking..I hated no one..I still don't.I have travelled to foreign countries, and never asked them to speak English..that's in the movies. I made an effort to learn some of the languages of the countries I went to.
You make America sound as if it is only made of "Ugly Americans".. We are not.

And why does everyone have to have a label? I am a conservative, but there are some views of mine which are liberal..I do not like labels.
All that does it pigeon-hole people, and make them sound "dirty"..

I am worried. I am worried for my country. I worry for my children and grandchildren. I do not want to have them fight in foreign countries either. This all has to be taken care of now.

They have to know that we will not give in to their brand of islam...extremism. I am sure, if this religion wasn't hijacked by islamofacists..it would be a relgion of peace. But it is not.

Right now, they frighten me...

117

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:30:20

121. Bikewoman

Good evening BW, How are you?

I would think that extermination camps have been around for millennia, no?

118

Bikewoman,

15/04/2007 21:36:25

#111 Nomad

"Germany, the land that rhythm forgot."

If you feel the earth quake and it seems that an earthquake is afoot, that is just Bach, Brahms, Beethoven, Wagner, Pachelbel, Handel, Praetorius, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Telemann, Strauss, Schumann, Weber and a few hundred other German composers collectively rolling over in their graves. ;)

119

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:37:20

122. Lynne

Woah! I have never labelled anyone an 'ugly ameican', in any way.

I do find it incredible that you answer my post like that. Why not address the issue of who funded these (very few) Islamic lunatics? Your tax dollar helped, Lynne. Your tax dollar helped create the lunatics you now fear. Why do you fear them? I don't. I fear the USA's elites and the hegemony of that state much more than militant Islam.

There are lunatics (my opinion) on ALL sides. WE get killed, the 'elites' profit. All sides.

120

Bikewoman,

15/04/2007 21:37:29

#123 Finnking

Evening Finnking.

I expect you are right - the names change, the motives stay the same.

121

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:42:24

122. Lynne

Also, the various American Indians thought the same about 'Christianity' but Christianity came to the Americas too. Maybe it's now the time for radical militant Islam? Cultures change. So maybe your great granddaughter will be wearing a hijab. The Indians are now drinking whisky. You see what I mean?

122

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:44:01

127. Bikewoman

Aye, it's all about control, I think. The need to dominate others, you know? I think that's what's at the foundation of these 'camps'.

123

Lynne,

USA 15/04/2007 21:47:52

Well Finnking..first I did not say you called us Ugly Americans..I said you make us all sound as if we are.
Second...you do label...Liberals, Conservatives..etc., I don't care who my tax dollars helped..They still do..helping people that want us dead, thru their hurricanes, tsunami, etc. Iran has made it clear...very clear...they don't want an America...or Israel.

I don't care who gets rich off this war...I just want to have it end, and end in a way, my children and grandchildren don't have to worry for their children and grandchildren. And Finnking... I wouln't fear the US...fear the people strapping on the bombs, and blowing up markets with cars and trucks, and killing children and women shopping for their food.

124

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:48:51

Night night all. 1am here and I have a long motorbike ride in the morning!

125

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:55:39

130. Lynne, USA

Worry less and drink more!

As for the, "fear the people strapping on the bombs, and blowing up markets with cars and trucks, and killing children and women shopping for their food."
..how many people in the world have experienced the USA/'uk' elites doing just that? Strapping a bomb to a plane is a murderous act of aggression too.

If you are really so against violence, start at home: get rid of all the toy guns from the kids' toy boxes, write to your local MP (whatever) insisting that the USA stops manufacturing and selling weapons around the world and bombing places and then, hopefully, mothers in Iraq and Iran and Palestine and Israel will do likewise.

If you want to end violence, the very first and obvious thing to do is to stop doing yourself.

You undertsand my point?

126

Lynne,

USA 15/04/2007 21:57:14

Finnking good night...have a safe trip tomorrow.

127

Finnking,

Finland 15/04/2007 21:58:23

ta!

Peace starts with us, the people, of all hues and beliefs.

128

vriendje's pal,

15/04/2007 22:05:00

35 Trisha

Are you 7 years old? You oughtn't be on this site, without your mummy or daddy's supervision.

Spend your time on your homework and playing outdoors, dearie.

129

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 15/04/2007 22:05:09

#6 ImaDenSoldier

I share your views in principle. The alleged atrocities perpetrated against the Abu Graib inmates, as documented, investigated, and widely publicised, even though demeaning, was nothing compared to the torture which Iraqi citizens suffered under Sadam Husseins administration.

We are not engaged in a "conventional" war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but rather, in an "unconventional" warfare environment, or guerilla warfare against home grown and foreign militia,as well as terrorist factions, who hit and run. The same strategies were used by the Viet Cong in South Vietnam, including some instances of suicde bombers. But not to the extreme which we see in Iraq.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Either we deal with this problem there, or we'll most assuredly deal with it in our own back yards. There is little doubt that this will become the case. In fact, it is happening in Spain, UK, North America, etc.

No one likes war, at least not the more civilized people of this world. Life is hard enough without interjecting daily doses of blood shed that we see in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yet, the best way to guarantee that evil men succeed in their endeavors is that "good" men do nothing. What legacy will we leave our children if we do not deal with this problem now? I think it will be a dismal and violence ridden future indeed, for all of us.

130

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, Ma with a raging storm out there 15/04/2007 22:29:11

All of this thinking about Prague and Dresdon because Vonegut died yesterday, and recalling how US and Uk went to extreme effort to bomb any factory that could make weapons of any kind.... Why haven't the special op teams found the "source" of these bombs. There must be a place where the bombs are assembled and a source where compoenents are purchased. That is standard procedure for the FBI- to track down where the components are purchased and made, and then close up shop.
it sounds too easy and too logical; it would never work..

131

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 15/04/2007 23:16:11

#118 57Nomad

Thanks for the general clarification. As usual, it makes sense, illiterate religious fanatics killing men, women, and children because they do not share their own personal religious views.

The truly sad thing about this is that both sides think that their religion is the true religion. Wont they be surprised and shocked when they find out that the one that they were following was Lucifer, the "prince of darkness" himself. For it is he who desires the destruction of mankind.

132

American,

USA 15/04/2007 23:33:39

#79- Rita, I think the suicide bombers would be just as happy beating up the virgins.

133

American,

USA 15/04/2007 23:41:23

#49-Islamic extremists who want an islamic world with sharia law and in order to achieve it, teach their childrens to blow themselves and others up and who make women do honor killings. Am I close?

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American,

USA 15/04/2007 23:46:18

#63- Sandy, maybe the unclassified documents sandy berger mistakenly stuffed in his socks and pants are in the clinton library too.

135

American,

USA 15/04/2007 23:57:32

#98-Wally, Dennis Kucinich?? Cynthia McKinney?? BTW- I thought cynthia mckinney recently lost her political status? Please correct me if I'm wrong because if its not her, I don't know who I'm thinking of. Isn't she the one who smacked the DC security guard?

136

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 00:01:23

American in 142 - your memory is correct. she's the woman from Georgia who was under heavy attack. She survived 1 election when under such attack, but not the 2'nd one. So she's no longer a congressman. I just wanted to give an example that there are democrats that I would vote for.

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American,

USA 16/04/2007 00:13:46

#143- Wally, what was she under attack for in the first election?

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16/04/2007 00:59:48
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16/04/2007 01:02:02
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American,

USA 16/04/2007 01:12:26

#146- Henry- I remember that one, but I dont recall the first "attack" wally's talking about. Is she the one who took the $10K that Guiliani refused after 9/11? I think it was from some middle eastern guy (or group) that was not favorable to him. Maybe it was Sheila jackson who took it.

141

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 16/04/2007 01:12:53

I think she was a victim of her own high minded arrogance. Black, smack my azz, I don't care if she was purple. I, along with many others saw the security video clip on the incident and she had no reason to blatantly pass through security without first being identified and cleared.

142

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 16/04/2007 01:14:40

The very last thing a lowly security officer on Capitol Hill wants is to have an altercation with one of the politically elite.

143

57Nomad,

california 16/04/2007 01:49:08

#125 TSW,

You couldn't be more right! But, the reason that they're rolling over in their graves is that !*@^&! Techno crap.

144

57Nomad,

california 16/04/2007 02:21:48

#120 Finnking

Of course techno, like all other forms of rock, started in America. It lasted about a week and a half and the next thing you know the Germans are on it like a mustache on a Mexican.

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Bikewoman,

16/04/2007 02:32:54

#150 Nomad

I'm not TSW. ;)

146

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 02:35:55

Finnking.#132

..I did start at home..my children grew up playing with cars, dolls and trucks, and whatever. We did not have toy guns in the house. And I am not a member of the NRA..I believe in gun control..
My children are adults, I do not see toy guns in their homes either. We have not discussed it, but I do not see them.

America, the only one I can remember who returned the money to Saudi Arabia was Guiliani..I do not know about a comgressperson taking it.

It's getting late... going to check in tomorrow, during work. Nite All.

147

The Plain Facts,

16/04/2007 02:38:58

149. CombatVet68

But she had Danny Glover & Harry Belafonte on her side! :) With those two defending her you know she was in the right!

148

ImaDemSoldier,

16/04/2007 02:46:37

I just wanted to make a comment.. not sure who I will offend etc.. but I'm going to say this..

The war in Iraq is as CombatVet68 has mentioned. He said:

"We are not engaged in a "conventional" war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but rather, in an "unconventional" warfare environment, or guerilla warfare against home grown and foreign militia,as well as terrorist factions, who hit and run."

This nails it on the dime.

I have listened to people complain about our presence in Iraq, with out ever being or experiencing Iraq, and What really gets me? Is those who call us Illegal Occupiers, those who say we Illegally Invaded Iraq.

Illegal Occupation? We are welcomed by Al Maliki and Iraq' current Government. What? They don't have a right to voice themselves? Only the Militia, Insurgents and their supporters do? Until the job is done or until the Government or Iraq, my Government or NATO says that we need to leave. To believe that we are participating in an Illegal Occupation is just senseless. No matter what other Country claims otherwise.

Illegal Invasion? Do we know what the meaning of Invasion truly is? Any way, this is definitely untrue, and I can hear it now. What is he talking about? They have over 100 Thousand Service men and women in Iraq. Thats not invasion?

I say "NO". Here's my reasoning behind my answer.

With over 4 million Armed Services Men and Women in the Active Military and Reserves (this number doesn't even include our National Guard).

If we truly wanted to invade Iraq. It would have been done. No assistance by the current Government would have been needed. Just a simple sweep and destroy would have been enough. Wipe out the entire lot. War over in weeks. That would be an Invasion.

Is this happening? No, we got a small percentage of Military Personnel in Iraq, and people are crying foul.

Even with all this bad publicity, we continue to train their Milit

149

Cyril,

New Zealand 16/04/2007 04:24:10

Having two relations one a Major and the other a Lieutenant in the Australian Army in the Middle East I hope they will return home safely and not be killed by the weapons supplied by the major powers. Weapons were given to the Afghans to throw out the Russians and now being turned on our people. Also the USA backed Saddam Hussain in his fight against the people of Iran. When will the 26 million Kurdish people in Iraq, Turkey, Syria, Iran Lebanon and Georgia be given a country of their own as they were promised after the break up of the Ottoman Empire.

150

American,

USA 16/04/2007 05:00:45

#156-Of course we backed the fight against iran. They held american hostages for over a year while chanting for death to america!
And I hope your relatives return home safe. I too have a relative who served in Afghanistan. He came home last summer.

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57Nomad,

california 16/04/2007 05:49:07

#152 BW,

My apologies. No excuse, I just goofed up. The thing about the techno still stands, though.

152

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16/04/2007 08:16:26
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16/04/2007 08:23:15
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ImaDemSoldier,

16/04/2007 09:00:45

#159 Halitosis

You said "Sure they did and with good reason... The US imposed the Dictator on them that they had before."

Imposed? Hardly. The Shah of Iran was the rightful Sovereign, confronted in WW2, and put back in place, where he rightfully belonged.

His (the Shah') oppositions failed to challenge him. Accepting his choices even if they disagreed. But yeah, I can see how you would place the blame on the US and British for the Shah' choices.

But funny you should make it seem like it was the work of the US and Britain since..

You said "the Dictator went under the nom de plume .."The Sha of Iran... It is only natural and right for Iranians to make some attempt to get even with the US and Britain"

Get even for what? Returning their Sovereignty? The US and British did not place him in this position like you make it seem. He was heir to the thrown of Iran, and took his place when his Father, Reza Shah died.

The Shah' oppositions finally started to raise up because of the choices and actions the Shah was making. The Shah put them back in their place, with his Army, as their King.

The choices of the Shah continued to build animosity within the ranks, leading to continuous uprisings and eventual down fall, causing his exile. But, yep, totally the faults of the US and Brits.. ?

And, then you finished with ".....and Iraqis will get even with those who attack them too... as the US is finding out."

Get even with who? The Militia? The Insurgents? Oh, I get it. Blame the US and British again. Go after them instead of the people they should be going after. The same thing the Iranians did. Right, makes sense to me.. not. History repeats its self.

It starts with the person in the mirror, and ends with that person. Not the person next to you. You make your own choices and at the end of the day. You need to live with those choices. If you tell me you did it because the guy ne

155

ImaDemSoldier,

16/04/2007 09:21:04

#160 Halitosis

You said "The US has brought about the conditions that Iraqis now feel the need to strap on bombs.."

We did? We patrol the streets, trying to help the Iraqi Government bring order to their Country, giving/risking our lives, taking shots, manning blockades.

We made them feel that they should strap on bombs because of what we are doing?

You said "which they didnt before..."

Ever wonder who influences these people, how they are influenced, etc..? Yep, it's us, because we blow them up with car, gas, and suicide bombs, every day.

You said "the US is being Misused by The Neo-con goverment"

Not this soldier, not many others who re up to go back. We don't do it for the Government. We do it for each other. We pound sand with each other, for each other.

My cousin in Oklahoma is going back, my friends in California and Washington are going back. Yeah, we stay in touch. We don't do it for warmongers. We do it for each other.

You said "...the US soldier gonna take a beating for a Prez who lied to you..."

We do it as a job for ourselves, our Country, our President, but I do it mostly for my kids. I hope they never have to do this.

You said "Rember Vietnam... Did the US win?"

Vietnam?

What I take from Vietnam is, we threw in the towel. A lot of useless deaths. A lot of internal strife. A lot of BS from our Politicians, and a definite lack of support for our Troops. Do I remember, yeah, I remember.

Did we win.. p***es me off to be compared to Vietnam. Why can't we write a new page in history? I don't care to win, I don't care if we lose. I worry about those who won't be able to defend themselves in Iraq. Is that so hard to understand?

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials

156

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 09:58:24

American says that it was good for US to support Saddam in 1980's because they had a war with Iran and Iran took our hostages.

It is very sad that many of my country-men are so arrogant and ignorant. As someone else told him the iranians took hostages because about 25 years prior the US orchestrated a coup in iran bringing the Shah Pahlavi back to power. There had been a democratically elected government and the US provided key help to overthrow it. A CIA agent named Roosevelt gave a lecture at a US university about how he pulled the strings to make it happen. The Shah Pahlavi was a brutal ruler. So they held our hostages for 444 days and released them safely. and for this American says we are right to support Saddam in war against them. But it is more than that. The US asked Saddam to invade Iran as a result of the hostage situation. So the war began really at the instigation of the US. The US promised Saddam billions of dollars in aid if he would invade. He did invade and the US provided the aid. And the war raged for 7-8 years. and one million people died. And American says it was worthwhile because 50 people were held hostage and his tv showed some people shouting some anti-American slogans. Stupid ignorant and arrogant are all operative words here.

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Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 10:18:03

IAmDemSoldier please read my 163 history on Iran regarding this Pahlavi fellow who was Shah. You see Iran had a democracy that they developed. A legally elected leader was overthrown with key help from the US CIA. this is very well documented. A week or more ago we had a link here showing a CIA agent's personal recollections of his efforts to install the Shah as their leader. and as I said another CIA agent (the top fellow over there at the time) gave a lecture at a US university and told about how all he had to do was organize and motivate and pay a few key people to get their government overthrown. The Iranians you see all know this, but the Americans don't. And this is why some Iranians hated America and wanted to hold hostages back in 1979. Consider reality - the Shah was a very brutal leader. He killed many people. He had secret police. they arrested & tortured. he was in power for about 25 years and very brutal. The iranians have hated America over that. and so they kidnapped 50 Americans and made great protests over it shouting 'death to america'. and for this we encouraged a war. and one million people died in that war.

and I tell you also DemSoldier that a similar history is at play in iraq. Because a long time ago iraq actually did have a democracy. For about 20 years, 1933 to 1950's. And when that democracy began to break down the US gave great aid to one faction and helped that one faction to eventually come to power. And that faction involved saddam Hussein as the leader, he was the one that the US government favored.

It is true what you say that most of the Iraqis who've died due to all the political problems since 2003 have been killed by other Iraqis. that is true, and many people (like myself) still blame the US for this. We can't forget the raw statistics, not one single suicide bomber in all of Iraq before the invasion and now they are very common. Simple statistics tells us there is likely some causat

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Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 10:32:25

Halitosis thanks for that history in 164.

I remember the Madelaine Albright remark. She was a Clinton administration official. And as far as I'm concerned the Clinton administration was very similar in its war-mongering to the Bush administration. I have told people here I'm historically a conservative. But when we see both democrat & republican administrations over a long period of time pursuing war and death and empire as their policies, how can anyone support either of them?

The economic sanctions of the 1990's against Iraq were only made possible because an empire of nations was behind it. All of these nations refused to allow the Iraqis to buy simple medicines and simple products like baby formula. and the result was one million Iraqis dying prematurely over a 10+ year period. Most were under 5 years old. This is very well documented.

When they asked Albright about this and the deaths of the children she acknowledged that it happened and just said that it was worthwhile.

Americans assume that their government somehow at least tries to serve them. And they assume that there is a difference between democrats & republicans. they never seem to understand that the people in our government are primarilly there because the people who rule our country from behind the scenes by controlling key institutions at chokepoints of power are all serving an agenda of the people who rule us from behind the scenes. It is not our agenda, it is their agenda. and our democrats and our republicans implement that agenda. that is why there is such continuity of policy goals even though the government changes.

Today we should really think about what the US agenda in Iraq is. The new embassy being built I think is as big as the Vatican is in Rome. It is something like 10 times bigger than any other US embassy in the world. And there's said to be very large military bases built in Iraq also. The US is building a platform in Iraq

160

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Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 11:39:38

Two things I didn't want to let go beforet his thread is closed:

first, American said that a bunch of investigations were done and concluded that at Abu Ghraib there was just harmless fun and no torture. American is stupid and ignorant. It was published right in major newspapers in the US that the US Army did an investigation and in the reprot issued by the Army officer tasked to do that it said that 34 people were tortured to death by US forces in Abu Ghraib. Now, it is unfortunate that I don't have a handy link unless I were to search. And I'm not going to take the time to search. I read a lot of news stories. Here on Scotsman many people have said that some stories I quoted were lies. and many times I did find links to document or others did. That is the history. I remember what the stories said. and in the case of Abu ghraib, no it is not just harmless fun that was done. There was torture and people beaten to death. the Army officer investigating also said that the majority of people kept there were completely innocent, merely swept up in mass raids where all men were taken. and there were also women & children in that prison.

Also, why did Alberto Gonzales write a memo several years ago for the Justice Department instructing that the proper interpretation of the law was that US forces could legally torture people to death? Why did he write the memo which was released to the public if there wasn't any torture. and why did they pass the Military Commissions Act which does legalize torturing people to death if they're not torturing people to death?

These things get reported, but stupid ignorant Americans will tell you that it was never reported because it isn't spoon-fed to them on their network tv.

Also, turkish media reported that turkish government said that 2 dozen people were tortured to death in their prisons on behalf of the US. the US pays many countries around the world to imprison and torture people. Th

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sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 12:19:59

#132--Finnking---your quote, "if you are really so against violence, start at home: get rid of all the toy guns from the kid's toy boxes, write to your local MP(whatever)insisting that the USA stops manufacturing & selling weapons around the world & bombing places & then, hopefully, mothers in Iraq & iran & Palestine & Israel will do like wise"......
your 1st point is just silly. i, along w/my 12 siblings played w/an assortment of guns as children, & not one ever used a gun against another human being..
your 2nd point is just as silly.you must include most industrialized nations, for they too manufacture & sell weapons to other countries. does Finland still get their weapons from Russia?

164

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 12:44:47

Wally, the NY Times published it over 50 times...front page.. this was not harmless fun, this was bad apples..giving the US Military a bad name. They were not trained right for the job of guarding these people..
Wally, this last post of yours proves to me you are not a native American, and you are for the terrorists.You write and phrase like an immigrant who is not completely Americaninzed.
You are totally negative. When someon points out the good, you find the bad...you push polls and statistics as if they are fact. They are not, and what is more, I would sooner take the word of boots on the ground, then from you, or from the media.
We all know how the written word is biased against this President.

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16/04/2007 13:31:31
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16/04/2007 13:47:06
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ellenor,

16/04/2007 15:05:27

The other story is closed "Plaintive cry to rekindle Iranian revolution by FRANCIS FUKUYAMA"

I was so upset with all the usual allegations of the usual two posters ridiculing others as Trolls I sent a wordy complaint to the Scotsman several hours ago about those individuals who routinely resort to name calling when debating other posters.

168

57Nomad,

california 16/04/2007 15:14:23

#172 Halitosis

How dare you refer to Wally as an "N word in a wood pile" You've got your nerve, Jasper! First of all, you and not Lynne used that word and since it came from your keyboard it came out of YOUR head, not Lynne's. You should be ashamed of yourself for harboring those racist and demeaning thoughts of your fellow human beings.

Second of all you may object all you want to Lynne's comments on Wally. They are simply replies to the things that Wally has said. If you dish it out, you've got to take it without whining.

But most of all, all of us, and that includes Lynne, are well aware that this poor guy suffers, and who wouldn't, from a prolonged absence from others of his kind who are, at this very moment (relativistically speaking, of course) frolicking in their natural 12 eyed 6 legged bodies in the Crab Nebula.

You see, Halitosis, Wally is certain, because he is the very subject of it, of a vast, deep, persistent government cover-up dating to the Truman administration. Once the Government/Military Industrial Complex/Skull and Bones conspirators got wise to the CosmoMutator chamber on The Spirit Of Alpha Centauri, Wally's cherished "space buggy" and a hot number it was, functional tail fins, how cool is that, Wally was changed in to his present "human" form and forced to "blend in" to human society as some kind of perverted, hideous, Abu Ghraib style "interrogation" technique. We want to know the secret to the AstroWarper space drive system and we want to know it NOW! Until Wally talks, he stays in the desert on two legs and we don't give a damn what the Interstellar Commission on Zorkish Rights says.

There, you got that, Skippy. Wally has an excuse, what's yours?

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16/04/2007 15:53:44
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57Nomad,

california 16/04/2007 16:27:04

#176 Halitosis

Yes you certainly did. I can no longer quote from the original post. It was quite sensibly removed by the Scotsman. Well done lads!! It was disgusting.

Then you have the nerve to deny it. Furthermore you then try to fly in under the radar by removing one of the "n's" from your racist comment and reposting it, and I quote from your post #176:

"No.. I did not refer to Wally as Niger in the Woodpile... I hold Wally in high Esteeme"

Lynne NEVER said that, you did, I've quoted you here so come clean! First you slander Lynne by putting your words in her mouth, then you get my post deleted because I included a cut and paste quote from your post. Mind your manners, Scooter!

172

Djookers,

16/04/2007 16:49:45

#170 sandy

"your 1st point is just silly. i, along w/my 12 siblings played w/an assortment of guns as children, & not one ever used a gun against another human being.."

This is obviously not always the case in the USA as the following breaking news story attests. The prevelance of firearms in the US means stories like this occur with frightening regularity.
Things like this are thankfully rare events in the UK, and the colleration between the scarcity of firearms over here and rarity of such events cannot be dismissed.
Perhaps Finnkings plea to stop the sale of firearms around the world is not so silly after all.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - At least 20 people, including the suspected gunman, were killed in a shooting rampage at Virginia Tech university on Monday, police and university officials said.

It was one of the worst shootings on a university campus in the United States since Charles Whitman went to top of the tower in the middle of the University of Texas campus in Austin, Texas, on August 1, 1966, and opened fire on people 27 stories below. He killed 15 people, including his mother and wife the night before, and wounded 31 others.

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16/04/2007 16:59:27
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sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 17:15:35

#179--Djookers--""perhaps Finnkings plea to stop the sale of firearms around the world is not so silly after all"".....that is not what he posted!! please re-read #170, he specifically posted the USA!!....i think you knew that & it was just your intro into your next point......i won't bite.........

175

American,

USA 16/04/2007 17:56:40

#163- Wally, You are actually the ignorant one. You shouldn't twist words or meanings or put your own interpretations into what others say. I truly feel sorry for you wally. I think you should move to a country where you will be happy. Personally, I don't think you live in the US. Or maybe you're really ward churchill.

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16/04/2007 17:59:45
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16/04/2007 18:02:25
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Djookers,

16/04/2007 18:10:15

#183 Halitosis

A lot of the time I may agree with you, even to how silly the US's obsession with firearms is.

But your post, especially the quip about a "decent body count" was disgusting, non of these young people deserved to lose there life.

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16/04/2007 18:19:42
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16/04/2007 18:25:18
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Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, Ma, USA 16/04/2007 18:55:26

All this talk about guns.

I was raised around guns, and knew well how to fire a gun. Unfortunately, when I had a gun pushed into my eye, the only weapon I had to survive was my mouth. It worked well enough.
Sweetie, the next day, wanted to run out and get a gun for the apartment immediately. This terrrfied me and I forbid it- I figured sooner or later he'd shoot me with it.
To summarize, I survived the attack, but I could not seem to endure the very intense investigation, etc and the entire nightmare that followed. I couldn't walk down the street, or take a bus without seeing someone from the police pictures. I was constantly terrified. My life was forever changed. I moved to Vermont where it was 'nice and safe.' I got a gun, and went to the rifle range every weekend with my boss. Eventually I realized my mouth was still the better of the weapons, and I stopped going to the rifle range. I never stopped thinking about the gun in my eye and the knife in my back tho and how very young they were.

I have decided that the world has crazy people in it and the best you can do is not make them crazy enough to shoot you.
To the families of those who were killed today on the campus, the nightmare is long, but endurable, and my heart goes out to you.

182

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 19:25:31

American in 182: listen & I'll give you education.

Ward Churchill once worked for Soldier Of Fortune magazine. Back in 1980's he was totally supportive of US war efforts in central America. and then he became re-invented as a left-wing college professor in Colorado. And then he said flagrant things that were perceived as anti-American and seemed dysfunctional. He was trotted on the national stage in the media and offended many. He succeeded at discrediting anti-war people. He was fired.

and all along he had to be CIA to have that kind of track record. This is how it goes American. Did you know that Gloria Steinem admitted in her auto-biography that she worked for CIA and founded her magazine MS magazine with CIA money? Did you know that William F. Buckley was also CIA and that his magazine National Review was founded with CIA money? True. I believe the liberal New Republic magazine - also founded with CIA money.

Our intellectual debate is shaped for us by the ones who rule over us. they get us loyal to one intellectual camp or another and then give us leaders inside each of those camps, all the while concealing from us what they're doing. Events are even created and then lavishly reported on for the sake of shaping people, giving them appropriate emotion-based grudges allowing the holders of those grudges to be easily manipulated.

Ward Churchill was CIA - the whole thing was an act - you fell for it.

183

Djookers,

16/04/2007 19:25:48

#186 Dox

Of the 5 links you provided, the massacre in Japan is the only one to have occured in that country and did NOT involve the use of a firearm.

The one in Germany was the the only one to have occured in that country.

Two happened in Canada, and I found a third. Canada has gun control but it is not as stringent as in other countries. It is relatively easy to own a gun in Canada, less so for more powerful weapons.

The one at Dunblane happened here in Scotland. The police had tryed to have the perpetrators guns removed from him previously, but were unable to do so due to the way the law worked. Since then the law has been changed and no other incidence has occured.

The number of fatal school shootings in the USA =48
The number of fatal school shootings in the UK= 1

The US has only 6 times the population of the UK but has had 48 times as many fatal school shootings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres

The following figures show the number of murders with firearms (per capita) between the USA which has a large percentage of the population owning guns, and the UK where the opposite is true.

USA 27.92 per 1 million people
UK 1.02 per 1 million people

That means you are 28 times more likely to be killed by a firearm in the US as the UK.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-...


I'll put it to you another way.
If you have a gun, you can kill me from 20 ft away without any danger to yourself.
To do me harm without a gun, you must get close enough to strike me, but you are then in danger of retaliation from me and risk being hurt yourself.
As a result, not having a gun will make you think more about the consequence

184

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 19:34:55

Regarding the guns - you want to know what has been and will also increase the incidences of shootings like one today in Virginia Tech Univ? It is the prescribing of drugs to male children by psychiatrists and the forcing of these children by government to take these drugs. It is estimated that today 25% of American boys age 6-18 are on these drugs. It is especially prevalent among lower income people. These drugs are being pushed very strongly. and it is known that a lot of the shooters in these incidents are on those drugs.

Regarding the guns, I have read that in both Australia and UK over the last 5-6 years or so they cracked down on guns, even went door to door to collect them, and the result was an increase in the rate of crimes where people used guns.

The purpose of 2'nd ammendment where gun right is asserted is to allow the people some power to defend themselves from tyranical government.

Honestly we used to have many more guns per capita in our country than we do today. They used to be extremely normal. and we had very low crime rate. As guns have become less common and less dense among us the crime rate has gone up. and I've read that the violent crime rate is just as high in UK as it is in the US today.

Want to know a factor that causes crazy violent crime? Hollywood culture. wherever hollywood culture goes about 25 years later they have huge increase in crime. It happened in US and many other countries. hollywood culture shows so many killings in tv/movies that it breaks down people's natural inhibitions to kill and it makes people crazy too.

185

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 19:41:23

#184--Djookers---i was referrencing "toy guns"....
it is our "2nd Ammendment" that gives the US/citizen the right to own guns & whether we like it or not the violent bad guy has them as well as the law-abiding guy. i sgree w/Dox@186, you can't compare the US to the UK, for the vast difference in population.....thank you @185...

186

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 19:50:59

#189--dear Wally, please read #175....then re-read this post.....

187

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 19:51:56

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/160407blac...

here's an interesting link on the school shootings. So the campus police were over-ruling the state's concealed carry law and telling students they could not carry their legal and concealed guns - and they were doing this just recently. Disarming the students, but the criminal was not disarmed, the students were just defenseless.

and then like at Columbine over 15 years ago in Colorado the police were extremely slow to respond. At Columbine the first police officer on the scene was told to stand back and let the carnage continue rather than to try to stop the shooter. and at Columbine it was eventually revealed that as many as half the dead students were actually killed by police. This is fantastic information you probably haven't heard, but it is true, that is what was eventually revealed after investigations forced by parent's lawsuits.

188

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 19:54:39

#191--Wally--i absolutely agree w/your point about hollywood....but it still all starts w/the parents....

189

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 19:58:10

#192--"referencing"...oops!

190

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 20:01:02

King Nimrod - thanks for watching my back. But something tells me it was someone besides Halitosis that said something foul in 172. Did Lynne fly off the handle? I wish I got to see it before it was deleted. I have seen one really nasty post directed at me before it was deleted. I guess I'm an inspirational sort of a guy.

191

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 20:09:16

196 Sandy - I understand what you meant. The stuff I wrote in 189 is true believe it or not. it is my analysis to assert that Ward Churchill is a CIA asset, but the analysis is based on fact and a little bit of knowledge as to how they operate. People from within the CIA have written books and exposed some things about how they operate. It is a fact that Ward was a writer for Soldier of Fortune magazine many years ago. How can it be explained? In the 1980's he's writing for a far right magazine that focuses on paramilitary activities of mercenaries & CIA all over the world, and he's approving of the US policy in central America, and then 20 years later he's a left-wing college professor spouting things that were obviously meant to offend. And Bill Buckley himself has said and written many times that he was with the CIA. And documents released by Freedom of Information Act request shows that National Review was founded with CIA money. Do you realize what's happened at National Review? They developed the 'conservative' movement and then 15 years ago turned neo-con. Gloria Steinem said in her own book she wrote about herself that she was recruited by the CIA at age 18. and the same thing - FOIA request yielded documents showing that her magazine promoting women's liberation was founded with CIA money.

It's like I told you - the intellectual debate is controlled to some unknown extent, and same is true with our news.

192

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, Ma, USA 16/04/2007 20:29:01

This is UP reporting•
I haven't counted.. but its more than 48

Fatal shootings at U.S. colleges or universities in recent years:

—April 16, 2007: A gunman kills 21 people in a dorm and a classroom at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. The gunman later dies.
—Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman points a rifle from the observation deck of the University of Texas at Austin's Tower and begins shooting in a homicidal rampage that goes on for 96 minutes. Sixteen people are killed, 31 wounded.
—Nov. 1, 1991: Gang Lu, 28, a graduate student in physics from China, reportedly upset because he was passed over for an academic honor, opens fire in two buildings on the University of Iowa campus. Five University of Iowa employees killed, including four members of the physics department, two other people are wounded. The student fatally shoots himself.
—May 4, 1970: Four students were killed and nine wounded by National Guard troops called in to quell anti-war protests on the campus of Kent State University in Ohio.
—Oct. 28, 2002: Failing University of Arizona Nursing College student and Gulf War veteran Robert Flores, 40, walks into an instructor's office and fatally shoots her. A few minutes later, armed with five guns, he enters one of his nursing classrooms and kills two more of his instructors before fatally shooting himself.
—Sept. 2, 2006: Douglas W. Pennington, 49, kills himself and his two sons, Logan P. Pennington, 26, and Benjamin M. Pennington, 24, during a visit to the campus of Shepherd University in Shepherdstown, W.Va.
—Jan. 16, 2002: Graduate student Peter Odighizuwa, 42, recently dismissed from Virginia's Appalachian School of Law, returns to campus and kills the dean, a professor and a student before being tackled by students. The attack also wounds three female students.
—Aug. 15, 1996: Frederick Martin Davidson, 36, a graduate engineering student at San Diego State, is defending his thesis before a faculty c

193

Dox,

16/04/2007 20:29:58

Djookers, again your logic is flawed. You are taking one observation, albeit a convincing one, and drawing a wide sweeping conclusion. You want gun laws in the US to be responsible for gun violence so you take these incidents and turn them to fit your peconceived conclusions. I included the Japan incident to show that a determined demento will find any way to commit evil.

There are many more factors at work than gun laws. You want to make it all about gun laws. I suspect lack of preparedness is the cause for the majority of these acts. I think copy cats are another cause. Mental illness may well be partially responsible (I'm well aware that European mental health care is better than US).

Observation: Every year in the spring, the Nile River flooded areas of Egypt along the river. Along with the muddy soil, large numbers of frogs appeared that weren’t around in drier times.
Conclusion: It was perfectly obvious to people back then that muddy soil gave rise to the frogs.

Observation: Since there were no refrigerators, the mandatory, daily trip to the butcher shop, especially in summer, meant battling the flies around carcasses.
Conclusion: Obviously, the rotting meat that had been hanging in the sun all day was the source of the flies.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/2922
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/claudia_webbe/2007/03...
http://society.guardian.co.uk/youthjustice/story/0,,20447...

Should knives be outlawed in the UK?

194

Dox,

16/04/2007 20:36:49

191, Thanks Wally, you helped illustrate my point. Fortunately I have a job that allows me some down time, but I do have to show results so I can't spend much time writing posts.

195

Djookers,

16/04/2007 20:59:49

#192 sandy

Finnkings post said toy guns, your original post did not say "toy" guns only guns, makes it a bit confusing as I know how much you guys believe in your guns.

The figures I quoted take into account the population difference. If the UK, without guns, had the same population as the US, with guns, the US would have 8 fatal school shootings for every 1 in the UK. Whichever way you want to call it, those are the figures.
Same with the number of murders with firearms.
They are taken as a percentage of each million of the population, again, they are the figures, even your government uses per capita figures to do like for like compaisons. As an example here is one taken from the CIA world factbook https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

"The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $43,500"

196

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 21:10:52

Wally, I did not fly off any handle...I've been gone all day...as a matter of fact, I came home to change for tennis..which starts in a few minutes.
#171 was my last post...I have removed none of the others...I have been busy. Got to go now...but the news is on and it seems it is 31 dead at Veirgina Tech. not 21.

197

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 21:11:40

*Virginia*..
toodles...be back later..

198

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 21:12:20

Lynne in 171 - I know you have an interest in Abu Ghraib - here are some links for you.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/03/11/story193241.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/the-photos-america-doesn...

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/1...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/05/iraq/main693306...

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=40175

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=6120

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=1650

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/p...

http://today.reuters.co.uk/misc/PrinterFriendlyPopup.aspx...

http://democracyrising.us/content/view/231/151/

http://www.boingboing.net/2004/07/15/hersh_children_raped...

http://freedom4um.com/cgi

199

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 21:19:40

Sandy...try this


1. go to www.google.com
2. click on "maps"
3. click on "get directions"
4. type " New York " in the first box (the "from" box)
5. type " London " in the second box (the "to" box)
6. click on "get directions"
7. scrol l down to step #23

200

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 21:33:07

Lynne, here's an Iraq War link - 5 more Americans killed today.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L16297929.htm

General Casey seems to have been right. He said several months ago that the 'surge' Bush wanted then would only result in more US deaths and not really yield any fruit. Bush fired him for saying that.

201

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 21:37:30

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/160407gunb...

they did ban guns on the campus recently.

202

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 21:37:57

Wally, I have to go back to reread posts to find out what is going on first!! I just got a call...Tennis is cancelled...cold and windy for some to play.. so now I have plenty of time.

203

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16/04/2007 21:44:27
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204

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 21:48:27

Halitosis...I love Wally like a little brother..granted, he's a little wierd, but I would NEVER, and I mean NEVER, use the N Word...and who was # 172? And what did it say?

205

Djookers,

16/04/2007 21:51:48

#205 Lynne

Is 31 the final figure, I hope it is not more.... what a waste of life.

206

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 21:51:59

Wally, thanks for the links...I have all those news reports in my folders and files... I told you...I do it each and every day for my grandchildren.
I am not too happy with truthout...I get it every day, and it is completely biased. Huge headlines, and somewhere down the middle of the story, comes the truth...somewhat. But I collect these so they can see both sides of this war and 9.11..
I know, I'm too good for them!!!

207

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 21:56:08

Djookers...it is 33 including the shooter. I know at least 28 are hospitalized ...4 critically (this morning)

My niece to Virginia Tech...She was in the Cops of Cadets in the Engineering Dept.!!! Thank Goodness she blew out her shoulder, and when the operation was over transferred schools. She is an Engineer now..

208

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 21:56:51

went...Corps of Cadets as an Air Force Cadet.

209

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, Ma, USA 16/04/2007 22:13:16

this shooting is a tragedy- and different from other from university tragedies fro two reasons:
(the security failure will be laid at the feet of the university. )
There was a shooting last fall and they did not change their policy, and there were two bombs threats in two weeks, yet security measures were not changed? Also, They did nothing after the first two deaths?
When I was on Catholic University, everyone knew there had been 7 women killed. The uinversity did everything possible to protect us. There were guards at the doors, we were told to never walk alone, the lights were changed, etc. wealthy students had bodyguards, etc. When I was victim#8, I lived through it because the campus police were there within a minute to help me, within ten minutes they had the city police and they were off chasing the gunmen.
My question is why weren't the campus police running all over the campus looking for this guy?
The Virginia campus security, from my point of view, is a total failure. It's a disgrace and a tragedy.

Djookers-
So, how many knife assaults/deaths in UK, compared to US?

I'd like to get rid of guns, but then only outlaws would have guns. Husbands and wives would have to kill each other with arsenic like in the old days, or with cars..

210

Djookers,

16/04/2007 22:13:42

#216 Lynne

A technical University, they were/would have been 32 of your best and brightest, I feel for the parents, to put in so much love, time and effort then see it disappear.

211

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 22:21:30

Djookers... It is a very fine school.. A very diversified University..and large. This was in the engineering section, and I think mostly freshman...I'm not sure..I am listening to the news as I write.
You send a kid off to school...supposedly a safe place, and then this.

212

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 22:28:43

Carolyn 1...what happened to you? At which school. Psychologically it has to be the pits. I am sorry for what happened to you. I hope you are ok (as ok as you could be)!!

What a mess, you are right. The entire campus should have been locked down..
And the way things are today...every dorm should have guards, and every building should have guards. This is why I beleive in gun control.

213

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 22:31:10

Lynne in 215: that is very nice of you to collect news stories for your grandchildren. I collect news stories for my grandchildren too. I suspect mine are different from yours though.

214

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 22:32:40

#208--Lynne--have you been out with Wally in his "Spirit of Alpha Centauri"-"space buggy"??..re-57Nomad@175..........you've lost me:))

215

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 22:36:25

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007...

Oh Lynne, here's a nice article for your grandchildren.

216

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 22:45:03

#188--Carolyn 1---i to am happy you survived that terrible ordeal, & hopefully,no lasting scars... i went through something similar only w/my x. he ended up the loser, thanks to my brothers... i have never used a real gun, just damn afraid of them........

217

Arcola,

16/04/2007 22:46:49

180. Mine's an 80 bob, AKA James Donald

Out of all the posts that are not about the headline above why would you attack this one?

218

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, Ma USA 16/04/2007 22:47:38

hey Lynne,
I'm talking with my niece and nephew- one is on campus in Schenectady,NY and my niece is at Albany. My daughter has stayed in college here on the cape. Everyone is in shock. I'm pacing the house thinking about all the crazy people in the world. My daughter's high school (2 years ago) used to do randon locker checks for weapons, and this is a very small community without violence- but there is something different about the kids. There is so much violence on TV, the movies and the internet.
I heard a report that a kid is a psychopath by the age of 9! So this guy was a psyhopath and would have shown signs of it. There is some movement in the US that kids should pass mental health tests as well as physical test when they enter school.

219

Djookers,

16/04/2007 22:55:46

#226 Arcola

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

220

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, Ma USA 16/04/2007 22:56:03

I attended Catholic University for architecture/engineering in the early 70's. Seven gilrs had been raped, murdered and mutilated. When the 2 guys attacked me I wouldn't hand over the car keys- and I kept talking. One guy had a gun in my eye and the other had a knife in my back, I kept myself together long enough that the police saw me and started running to help me, they took off. Within minutes the city police were involved. The point is this college did nothing for two hours! From my point of view they are responsible, due to negligence, for the 30 other deaths. Not to mention the bomb threats last week in the same building. It should have had a security detail in the building.

221

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 23:03:06

#221--Lynne---gun control would be a good thing, if it worked....how many times have we heard after these shootings; he was a good kid or he never seemed that kind of guy, he was so nice!...2/types of people gun control won't affect; the guy/gal who has been a model citizen & is allowed a permit & the bad guy who doesn't need one, for he can get a gun very easily on the streets....the Columbine monsters had weapons in their rooms & basement, at home!!...i wish i knew the answer.

222

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 23:07:28

Carolyn, oh Carolyn, I am soo sorry.. You are a smart cookie though to keep talking.
I'm surprised you are as together as you are. More power to you ..
and you are absolutely right..the tv, movies, all that violence.
The only thing I an think of, is just talk to the kids, and tell them you love them more often.

Sandy...I do not know what happened..I am still trying to find out!!! But i haven't been in his "space buggy"..!!! Maybe you know more than me!!

223

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 23:08:55

Thanks Wally...I get the Washington Post too..I have it all believe me!!!

224

57Nomad,

california 16/04/2007 23:12:55

#197 Wally,

You are very welcome and I know, despite our differences you'd do the same for me. Once again, you're post #197 is witty and charming, thank you.

It was Halitosis. I'll tell you what it said. Here's the way he rewrote it after it was, quite correctly, deleted by the Scotsman:

"Halitosis / 4:53pm 16 Apr 2007

Nomad... No.. I did not refer to Wally as Niger in the Woodpile... I hold Wally in high Esteeme You need to re-read what was written."

Here's the context. Lynne had written to you. Hal read it and scolded Lynne, saying, in his words, not Lynne's, that Lynne was treating you "like an N-word in the woodpile."

These were entirely his words. Lynne hadn't said anything like that, that was Hal's characterization of Lynne's comments. When I scolded Hal for the slanderous attribution and cut and pasted the very quote he made, MY post got deleted for quoting Hal's post.

Then he's got the gall to again deny he said it and then said the same damn thing again but this time taking one of the "N's" out of the offending words. You should ditch this dude. You are the real deal and this clown, Halitosis, couldn't carry your rocket back pack.

Seriously, I very much appreciate your sense of humor and sportsmanship. You're a good guy.

225

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 23:13:55

#227--Carolyn 1---i would like a psychological test of anyone wanting to have children today, then repeated every year until the child is 18 & just maybe our children will be well adjusted. it's only a daydream, for that pesky "constitution" gets in the way....i put the blame directly to the parents, until 18yrs of age, then the adult child is responsible for his/her actions....simplistic? maybe. again i wish i had an answer.

226

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, Ma USA 16/04/2007 23:17:35

It was a bad thing- I wanted to get on a plane the next morning, but the cops convinced me to stay and help catch the guys- since I was the only eye witness. It took me about a year to realize instead of shooting me (so there would be no witness), they knocked me out- which saved my life.When I went home to my parents I never told anyone because I didn't want to be a victim. It empowered me in many ways, and is a core of my identity that made me a better person. The kids will need counciling because after, you think everyone is crazy and ready to snap; which isn't true, but it takes a long time.

Massachusetts is making metal health doctors available for kids- which is new- and good- do they do that where you are?

227

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, Ma USA 16/04/2007 23:23:53

#234
I have lately come to realize I am 'living in the wrong decade.' I met my kid every day after school and was home with her. I knew all her friends. I was the one who was home, and the moms who were dating and sleeping around left their kids with me. I hang clothes on the line to drive. I still cook meals and eat at a table. I write letters. I go to the library and read. Everyone thinks I'm nuts.
I do think every student should have a psych test when entering college. College is a pressure cooker for some kids.

228

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 23:26:21

#231--Lynne--are you suggesting i jump in the ocean??@208??....LOL...LOL...LOL

229

57Nomad,

california 16/04/2007 23:31:37

#213 Lynne

#172 was a post by Halitosis where in you were viciously slandered. He took you to task for your tone regarding our friend Wally and said that you were treating him like, and these are Halitosis' very words, "an N-word in the wood pile."

I know this for sure because when I reprimanded for his use of foul language, which I cut and pasted into my response, his ungentlemanly slander of you, and for unforgivably trying to piggyback on Wally's franchise, my post, #177 was also deleted, not because of what I said but because of what Halitosis said.

Then in post #176 he again denies it and tries to cover his pathetic attempt at deception by subtracting an "N" from the bad word on his original post. Anyway, that's the whole sordid mess. Wally rocks, Halitosis is a jerk.

230

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 23:33:01

Here in Florida, at least in Palm Beach County, classmates that die, from accidents, disease, murder, etc...the school gets psychologists sent in immediately. There have been 1 or 2 in Brandon's classes that have died from disease or car accidents..schools got psychologists in there before they left that day, and they were there for a week, or longer. I guess as long as it takes.

Sandy..If psychological tests were given to every parent-to-be...maybe most children in jails wouldn't have ended up there!!!

I do not know what could be done to change the outcome of this..except better guarding of dorms and classes.

231

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 23:35:01

Nomad,
thanks for standing up for me and explaining all this. I think Wally knows me better, and knows I would never say anything like what was said!!
You are my knight in shining armor!!! Or Surfer dude in a speedo!!!

232

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 23:40:21

#236--Carolyn 1--i now live in an area where the children are THE most important part of parents lives, & they still have family meals & outings, as a family. my son went to school in Santa Monica, Ca, & w/one exception, all his friends parents were too busy to look after them, & yes they were at our house....i don't know what has happened, but it has to turn around...........

233

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 23:43:42

#222...Wally, I have every day from 9.11...every day. From 25 different news sources (probably more, including Arab sources)

I figure, if ever my grandchildren had to do a report, thesis,etc...they have it all. Besides, I learn a lot.!!!

234

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 23:45:39

Sandy...I would only suggest that if you could swim!!!lol
I just find it funny how non-challant that was...just an everyday 3,000 + mile swim.. and then go from there!!

235

Wally,

Arizona 16/04/2007 23:46:12

Thanks King Nimrod in 233 for clueing me in. If that's what happened I don't hold anything against Halitosis. As you said he may have been defending me. I think Europeans are shocked that we squabble in this manner. Don't be shocked, we are a deeply divided country and we understand one another as people within nations do. I am a little disappointed though that some have said that I am not American.

I guess I won't be happy and play nice in sand-box until I get to take my space-buggy for a ride.

236

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 23:47:26

nite all....it's time to visit with "Jack Bauer".....

237

Arcola,

16/04/2007 23:49:40

213. Lynne, USA

#238. 57Nomad Is correct in that Halitosis used the "N" word and used both g's. in future posts he only used on "g" when tyoing the "n" word to avoid being deleted.

238

sandy,

USA 16/04/2007 23:49:44

#243--Lynne--i knew it!!! it's a secret code!!! i'll get my de-coder ring out & decipher it....:)))
later..folks.......

239

,

16/04/2007 23:53:30
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240

Lynne,

USA 16/04/2007 23:55:49

Sandy,
when my kids were growing up...I did all the car pools of 3 kids in 3 directions, dinners on the run, etc. 3 kids who played travelling soccer, and practices at 3 fields, 3 kids in Hebrew school after school, on different days... But, we were at every game for the 3 of them. I also watched my daughter, who was a cheerleader at her school's games. It was hectic...I lived by a calendaer next to my refrigerator, and a schedule of where we were supposed to be at what time. It was worth it.
My children knew we cared, and loved them, and hopefully they turned out ok. (except for the youngest) We have close relationships. My youngest married a girl 10 yrs older, and she slowly alienated him from the rest of the family / but that's another story. I think we did our best. They are productive members of society, and their children are nice kids.

241

,

16/04/2007 23:57:44
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242

Arcola,

17/04/2007 00:06:40

250. Bikewoman

North or South American?

We know Wally is anti-United States of America.

243

Wally,

Arizona 17/04/2007 00:42:13

Arcola in 251:

Some people get upset that Americans use the term 'American' to describe their nation. I guess they think we should use the term 'United Statian'. We have no other term to use. The term 'American' began to be used to describe our nation in the 1600's. Like lots of words it has more than one meaning and in different contexts is used differently. I don't begrudge Brazilians for living in a continent called 'South America' if they don't begrudge me for living in a nation called 'America'.

I have said 2-3 times before on this forum and will say again that my loyalties are the same as george Washington. When Washington was asked where his loyalties are he said that his first loyalty was to his god, his second was to his family and his third was to his nation. And nowhere on that short list of 3 do you see the phrase 'United States of America'. The United States is merely a political institution and not a nation. And I have said several times that the greatest political enemy we Americans have is the United States. So you are right. I am against the United States.

Arizona is the 48'th state, became a state in 1912. There are 31 separate native or Indian communities in Arizona, more than in any other state. Arizona is a very large state, the 5'th largest. About one third of the land is owned by the various 31 native communities. Beginning in the 1600's there were Spanish settlements in Arizona that were inherited by the Mexicans when they gained independence. The American migration to the state became very strong by 1850 after the US acquired Arizona and many other western states from Mexico in 1848. But Arizona was the last of the western states to finally become a state, as I said 1912. It was very much a 'wild west' province for a long time.

If you have been a fan of 'western' type movies especially with John Wayne in them, then you have seen Arizona because most of those movies were filmed in Arizona.

244

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, Ma US 17/04/2007 00:47:23

Today is a holiday in Massachusetts- cradle of liberty!
Happy Patriot's Day-

We need to remember, that each man who signed his name to the constitution, if America had lost the war, would have been held for treason- to England that meant to be drawn, hanged, and quartered. The writers and the signers of the US constitution were heroes, and we should not forget what the severity of the consequences they faced if the new american soldiers failed.

245

,

17/04/2007 01:37:02
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246

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 01:56:14

Shepp..you are definitely on the wrong thread...look again for another topic

247

Finnking,

Finland 17/04/2007 01:58:35

170. sandy,

Sandy! (Stern voice! ;-) )

Read my first clause; about starting at home.

248

O'Brien,

17/04/2007 02:26:44

254. Shepp

Of course therepy can help Gays get back on track but Lynne is correct, I think you pasted on the wrong thread also.

249

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 02:29:27

Wally # 207 General Karpinski did not get demoted for trying to stop the abuse. She got demoted for not stopping the abuse. She had too many prisons under her, and was not aware of what was going on.

Also, she was the only Reservist to be demoted. All the other top officers got away with what she didn't because she was expendable.
There were not "people" killed during torture, that sounds like a lot. There were 2 or 3. Not that that is an excuse, or right. When you say people, it sounds like a lot more.
The fact that the prisoners were Humiliated does not bother me. It seems better than the beheadings that were happening at that time. Or the dragging of American bodies, and hanging them from a bridge.

I do not have much sympathy for prisoners when they complain they had underwear on their heads... they at least still have their heads.

250

Bikewoman,

17/04/2007 03:18:29

#258

"There were not "people" killed during torture, that sounds like a lot. There were 2 or 3. Not that that is an excuse, or right. When you say people, it sounds like a lot more."

There were significantly more. There were 21 that were acknowledged to have died during interrogation. Worse part about this is that the commander interviewed about this actually said "21 is not so bad considering what other countries do."

Sounds alot like your statement: "The fact that the prisoners were Humiliated does not bother me. It seems better than the beheadings that were happening at that time. [...]"

You should base your actions on what is ethical and right, not on the fact that it is comparably better than what someone else is doing. Try using that excuse in court - you won't get far.

251

ImaDemSoldier,

17/04/2007 03:41:01

#164 Halitosis

You said "Well.. First off ... I dont think you should use your kids as an excuse to soldier in Iraq..."

It's not. My reference to my kids is so they won't have to. Meaning experience this in any form. I wouldn't wish it on you either. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. It ain't pretty. It ain't pretty in here, imagine what it's like there.

You said "Iraq was never a threat to the the US... it may have pre first gulf war been a threat to its neighbours.."

Guess Saudi didn't ask for help? Guess they wanted to be invaded. Yep, I said invaded. Iraq was there for Saddam, period.

You said "Bush Seniour attended to that... Iraq was at that time under Saddam... whom the US helped bring to power in the first place.."

Old news, decisions are made. Let me ask you, have you never been wrong? The Leaders of the world are on a larger scale than we. Our errs, don't mean as much as theirs.

You said "so the first gulf war was almost like taking away from Saddam what the US had given...Power to Saddam."

Lol, we didn't give him Saudi. He took it. There's an old chinese proverb that is being used in a movie. It went like this:

"Don't take what the earth does not give"

As explained to me by my chinese grandmother, yeah, i'm mixed. Happens in hawaii. Any way, she used to tell me this, and the meaning behind it is.. Do not be greedy.

Saddam got greedy. We helped, and woah, coincidence, so did 9/11?

You said "What exactly do you have against the Iraqi people.. that makes you think your kids will suffer."

See this is where me and some one like Wally would agree to disagree humbly. But you, would twist my meaning to better serve your purpose.

Again, I do not wish what is going on in Iraq on anyone. And, I would rather be there now, instead of having my kids here in their lifetime, later.

Rebuild, or fail. I don't wi

252

Wally,

Arizona 17/04/2007 03:45:32

Lynne in 258: I appreciate your views. None of us are happy if people were actually tortured to death. All I can tell you is that Alberto Gonzales wrote a memo to interpret the law to have it mean that it is OK for US forces to torture people 'to death'. Gonzales used the phrase 'to death' in his memo. and that was a Bush admin interpretation of the law. I read that a US Army report said that at least 34 were tortured to death at Abu Ghraib prison alone not even counting other prisons. But I can't find a link so I am happy that Bikewoman chimed in and said that some were killed. I think if you look at the photos that I posted a link to above that you'll see a lot of blood was shed by some prisoners. and I know the US Army investigator concluded that many in that prison were completely innocent. There's a lot of info I put up. People should look at it.

General Karpinski the army said failed to do her job. But she was not the perpetrator of the abuse at Abu Ghraib. She did not create it. She tried to stop it. In my opinion she was demoted for this, but I am aware that the army says different.

253

Gary.,

17/04/2007 03:52:40

Carolyn I

Happy to hear you survive the ordeal and able to get your life going together again although having experienced the shocking past violence. I’m glad everything is going fine for you now. But at all times, always be on guard and observant as there will be sudden scary shooting repeating itself. I never experience this sort of situation before, however I can imagine how frightening it was.

How’re you doing in the lab? As usual, I’m busy and more so with going steady with my sweetheart. You may wonder why I like your name. That’s because my beau is named Caroline. I’ve been working very hard so that I can provide beautiful home and posh cars for her and because she comes from a wealthy family. Anyway, I also enjoy rich lifestyle.

I must go now. Take good care of yourself, dearie.

254

Wally,

Arizona 17/04/2007 03:55:23

260 IAmDemSoldier:

I appreciate your Hawaiian background. My neice & nephew have Japanese grandmother as my brother married half-japanese woman. we are a mixed race people, and yet we are a people.

I think you are right that Saddam got greedy. He did. and US came down on him. If he'd been good puppet he wouldn't have had a problem. Same is true with Noriega of Panama. US invaded them in 1989 because Noriega got greedy.

Regarding Iraqi involvement in sept 11 2001 events - there is no real evidence anywhere that they were involved in my humble opinion. There was one news story where a Bush admin official actually said that there was no involvement by Iraq in sept 11 events, I just don't have that link. Having said that there were what can be called 'terror training' camps in Iraq even where they practiced hijacking commercial jets and talked about flying them into buildings. That is true. But actual evidence linking Iraq to sept 11 I believe doesn't exist.

as you know, I think that sept 11 was an inside job, that our own government did it.

255

Wally,

Arizona 17/04/2007 03:57:26

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17541.htm

Here's what Paul Craig Roberts says about the Republicans. Roberts was known as 'Mr. Conservative' in the 1970's. He was an editorial writer for the Wall Street Journal. He wrote a lot of articles for National Review. He served on the board of several 'conservative' think tanks. He was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under Ronald Reagan in the early 1980's. He authored the 1981 tax cut legislation.

256

Wally,

Arizona 17/04/2007 03:59:00

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1260892,00.html

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1260916,00.html

Here's 2 articles about the shootings today. Apparently it was an asian male who did it.

257

ImaDemSoldier,

17/04/2007 04:03:13

#164 Halitosis.. Continued from 260

You said "You said "Let me tell you IDS... UN imposed sactions against Iraq caused the deaths of probably around 1.000.000 Iraqis... at least half of them were children...."

Lol, I will hear you, but you won't tell me. See where I'm coming from with wording? I wanna listen, but you push to hard. You make your self look pushy. Make others uncomfortable. Come at me hard, but come correct. It will be worth your while. Maybe I will start taking you more seriously. As for those children, I cry for them. I pray for us all, daily. I wish the best for us all, and pray that God will bless us.

You said "The UN/US are responsible for those deaths..... and here is what the American Madeline Albright said of this... "Its a price worth paying"

You put other people in the same categories as others. If I were in charge, I would have thought things through. I know all to well about cover ups, misdirection, instigation. Born and raised in Hawaii. There are definitely issues here. But, I would make the decisions myself, for myself, and take responsibility of those choices. Why can't other people? Why were those sanctions put in place? See What i'm saying? All conflicts have 2 sides. With you, it's 1.

You may be mistaking me for W or as you said "the American Madeline Albright". And that would be an insult to my intellect.

You said "Im sure from Madeline Albrights opinion. that the deaths of 500 000 Iraqi children is a price worth paying... for what exactly?... oo yes WMD... that Iraq shouldnt have WMD."

Those words didn't come from me. Notice my posts consider both sides, but my experiences is what I base my posts on.

I see links, I see references. But my experience outweighs most opinions in my decisions. Responsible for my own actions.

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials


and it turned out they didnt have them.

258

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 04:08:28

Good night all...had trouble with my DSL...and had to call on that..It's been a long day...
Play nice..

259

ImaDemSoldier,

17/04/2007 04:15:54

#263 Wally


Hehe, I did put coincidence in there. I know we have no proof, and I definitely know your views lol.

Yep, I did "and woah, coincidence, so did 9/11?"

#168 Wally

You said "the second thing I want to straighten out is when DemSoldier said that in his experience Iraqis wanted US soldiers in Iraq. We must be very clear that there have been many news reports from many sources that have shown that many polls have been done of Iraqis and it always shows that the large majority of them want US & UK forces to leave Iraq as soon as possible. The figures show anywhere from 75% to over 95% say this."

I won't argue this point. Accordingly, it is true. But my own experiences affects the majority of my decisions. Again, it is my experience. Good point.

You said "If you had an experience where an Iraqi thanked you, that's great. Consider that the Iraqis live in a country where US soldiers can arrest them and detain them for months and even torture them for absolutely no reason but a suspicion. Perhaps those Iraqis did not want to be considered suspicious and wanted to say something to avoid that."

Never considered this view. Never seen myself as one of those soldiers with the authority. I am human, I treat others as I would want to be treated.

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials

260

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 04:30:18

Wally...go to www.theirownwords.com. It is not funded by any corporations and I think the Parent company is www.letfreedomring.
I's very interesting.

261

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17/04/2007 08:40:14
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Brittany,

UK 17/04/2007 10:38:41

259. Bikewoman

Good see you are consistent when it comes to defending terrorist. When given a choice you never take the side of America, interesting.

263

sandy,

USA 17/04/2007 11:32:28

#248--Bikewoman---good morn'....you hit that nail again!....it's always a "band-aid" solution to every incident our youth are involved in & society is blamed instead of the parents. my mother was the disciplinarian for our father was there to procreate, & disappear & in the '40's & '50's, it WAS the parents that were responsible. it was their duty as a parent....my mother was a saint:)

264

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17/04/2007 13:34:06
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17/04/2007 13:50:09
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266

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17/04/2007 14:58:16
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57Nomad,

california 17/04/2007 16:01:32

Good morning all,

It's overcast along the coast right now, should burn off in a couple of hours. I know the the day is already well advanced in the other time zones, but in spite of that, I would like to propose a Day of Cordiality and Good Humor.

I pledge this day, that I, King Nimrod (57Nomad) to the rookies, not that there's anything wrong with being a rookie, will spend the entire day looking for the good in everyone and praising it.

To you Djoorkers, may good fortune smile on your every endeavor.

Finnking, may you discover that your motorbike has morphed into a Vincent Black Lightning.

Halitosis, may you stumble over a bag of 50 dollar bills, have your fall broken by Pamela Anderson, and return home to find that you have inherited one of those distilleries that make single malt Scotch with the hard to pronounce names, and never cross paths with a Crip.

Bill, england, may somebody walk up to you and, out of the blue, say something along the lines of, "You look a decent sort of chap, I was wondering if you would be interested in first class, round trip plane tickets for you and your family to Southern California?"

Bikewoman, I have this feeling that you are accustomed to making your own good fortune happen on a daily basis, so I'm hoping that today it is particularly effortless for you.

TSW, May Ed McMahon show up on your doorstep! (ask one of the American posters, it's a good thing, a very good thing.)

To Lynne, Sandy, Vet '98, DemSoldier, American, Henry, and any others who I have forgotten who share with me an unabashed love and devotion for the Red, White, and Blue, at 12:00 PST I am going to put on my vinyl copy of Merle Haggard's, immortal classic, "The fightin' Side of Me," turn it up to 11 and imagine you all here with me.

May the Mighty Lord who holds us all in his gentle hands be particularly merciful to us all today.

See you guys tomorrow,

King Nimrod<

268

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17/04/2007 16:37:14
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17/04/2007 16:45:08
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270

Wally,

Arizona 17/04/2007 16:50:52

Thanks Halitosis for defending me yesterday.

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2007/04...

It seems that the shooter in Virginia yesterday was a fellow born in South Korea, but came to US as an 8 year old. His family owned a successful business. He was on drugs given to him by a psychiatrist just as I suspected. Normally in these types of shootings it is around 80 or 90% of the time done by someone on those drugs the doctors dole out. Frequently the shootings are done by people who've only been on such drugs for a few weeks or their dosage was recently increased. and that is the case here. There's something horribly wrong in our country when the doctors are pushing those drugs along with the government & the schools. I keep telling you that 25% of the boys in the US age 6-18 are on those drugs, it is a tragedy, their ability to think will be stunted, they are prepared for cocaine or crystal meth habits.

He got mad over a girlfriend breaking up with him. She was the first victim. then he killed many more.

271

,

17/04/2007 17:07:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
272

Bikewoman,

17/04/2007 17:18:26

#272 Sandy

Hi! We are like ships that pass in the night these days. On at different times.

My mother often says that we are seeing the last of the generation that was concerned for others. I can remember when I was growing up, we were taught that our value was derived from what we have to others and what we contributed. It seems now that things have shifted and people's value is derived from working the system and getting more than they are entitled to.

Many (not all!) in the generation raising kids now are themselves wrapped up in themselves. They not only pass that self-involvement on to their kids, they are not really there for them. Society is increasingly being called upon to do ancillary parenting by "protecting" kids societally rather than expecting the parents to be fulfilling that responsibility.

I am now finding that even at the university level, I am having to provide remedial socialization for some of these kids. For example, while there are many responsible students, there is a contingency of students who don't know that you cannot send an email to a professor that reads "HEY. I WASNT IN CLASS DID WE DO ANYTHING?" They don't know that they cannot surf the web while in class. They don't know that they can't look me up in the phonebook and call me at home at 11 at night because "they didn't write down the homework assignment." They don't know that copying a text off of the internet and turning it in as an essay is stealing (or they don't care.)

You call them on these behaviors and frequently you get an angry call from the parent that "using the internet for 'research' is problem solving" and how dare I fail their child on that plagarized paper.

273

Bikewoman,

17/04/2007 17:21:05

#279 Wally #280 halitosos

"Wally... you dont need me or anyone else to defend you... "

You are right here Halitosis. That lot are best skipped over and ignored. Engaging at that level is like going back to the junior high school playground and trying to reason with the bullies. Those bullies grow up and they don't change. You rock, Wally rocks - lots of nice people on these boards.

274

,

17/04/2007 17:32:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
275

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 17:51:36

Bikewoman...you are so right . It is called the ME GENERATION..
What's in it for me?
What do I get out of It.
All mine.
ETC...

276

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 17:54:37

Bikewoman, when I was applying for college..you had to have outside school activities. And you had to be able to show them that you donated some time doing something for other people. I do not think thewy do this anymore. Shame...we learned to do for others...and help others.. Not today's kids,...only if it is convenient. This is an age of selfishness, not selflessness.

277

Wally,

Arizona 17/04/2007 18:09:15

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/6552267.stm

here's a nice link where Iraqi refugees tell their stories as to why they fled Iraq. Two million have fled Iraq. I understand there's a large number of homeless and displaced people inside Iraq also. The horrible school shooting in the US yesterday is an every-day occurrence in Iraq.

Read about the American named Lazano on trial in Italy for killing the Italian security person on road to airport when Italian journalist was leaving Iraq after being held prisoner by US forces? The shooter had Italian heritage. The Italians knew it was a very dangerous drive to the airport, they had Italian government security person driving and in back seat also guarding the journalist. The guy in back seat was killed, I believe threw his body over the female journalist. The US had lots of checkpoints on that road, extra than normal because Negroponte was coming into town. The satellite showed the Italians' car slowing down and then shot from quite a distance. The driver was confused, but trying very hard to be safe, the US soldiers had set that checkpoint up only recently and weren't running it very well. The US knew the Italian car was on its way to airport. There is strong suspicion that it was done on purpose. The Italian journalist had been anti-war. Many anti-war journalists have been killed in Iraq by US forces. and when you look at details provided by witnesses it seems to have been done on purpose.

Tragic for the Italian murdered, but also tragic for the American nation, as we have blood-ties to Italy, evidenced by the shooter's name - Lozano.

278

Bikewoman,

17/04/2007 18:12:59

#285/286 Lynne

I had forgotten that expression, the Me Generation. Right you are!

It was the same when I was getting into college myself. It was also alot harder to get into college. Another sad by-product of the Me Generation is that our Universities are being run like businesses. Enrollments keep expanding with an eye on the bottom line. The students are primed for the idea that they are paying customers (hence always right) by the administration and are even misled as to how "available" their professors will be.

I am really fortunate in that German is very self-selecting. people don't tend to take German for the "easy A". I have heard horror stories from colleagues in other languages and fields. I know someone who told a student in class that she would not accept his incomplete homework. The student had his roommate email her and tell her that he and the student were going to "punish" her for insulting him in class. She is trying to figure out what to do now to protect herself.

279

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 19:50:47

Bikewoman...You know what is also killing the education in college?.. I know the minute I say it, I will be pounced on!!

The Athletics departments of these Universitys that value a banner, and a championship more than an education.

280

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 19:57:50

Wally, I came across this the other day...What do you think?

Is Saddam alive and well?
http://in.news.yahoo.com/?http://www.aniin.com http://in.news.yahoo.com/?http://www.aniin.com
By ANI
Thursday April 12, 05:44 PM
New York, Apr.12 (ANI): A Phoenix-based agent has claimed that he has forensic evidence of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein being "alive and well", and his execution being faked on December 30, 2006.
David Hans Schmidt was quoted by the New York Daily News as saying that he had been hired by an unnamed "foreign head of state," whose intelligence service believes Saddam "is living in a foreign country under an assumed name."
Schmidt says he is ready to reveal Saddam's whereabouts, but warns that anyone venturing out to the new address should be well guarded.
German forensic pathologist Dieter Buhmann has asserted that, based on his analysis of 450 images, Saddam had at least three doubles to confuse his enemies, lending credence to the skeptic view that the dictator may have escaped the gallows.
Officials at the Iraqi Embassy in Washington D.C. had no immediate comment on claims that Saddam is at large, but a Pentagon spokesman called the assertion "preposterous."
Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney (Ret.), an Iran Policy Committee member, allowed that "anything's possible in the Middle East, but this one's a reach."
Nimrod Raphaeli, a senior analyst with the Middle East Media Research Institute, scoffed: "The people who took part in the execution were all Shiites. They were fanatics who wanted revenge. They were screaming with joy. They would not let him go, even if he offered them his weight in gold."
Schmidt, who's taking bids, insists that his "evidence" is "undeniable".

281

Bikewoman,

17/04/2007 20:19:38

#289 Lynne

"The Athletics departments of these Universitys that value a banner, and a championship more than an education."

Lynne - anyone who pounces on you for saying this hasn't had many dealings with university finances. you are absolutely correct here. It is, of course, about money. I taught at a college for a time that was introducing an "academic honors" program that was linked to an affluent sport, (I don't dare say what - I am in a small field.) They were completely unabashed about the fact that the required gpa for this "honors program" (which would show up on the student's transcript as an academic honor) was shamefully low because the group they wanted to attract "has alot of money."

Education needs to be publicly funded so that it is both accessible to all, and so that it is free from the economic pressures of big business in which the facukty and students become an excuse for the administration to make money. We are, in essence, their widgets - just a means to an end - a fat bottom line for those at the top.

282

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 20:25:46

Bikewoman...you can say that again!!!

283

sandy,

USA 17/04/2007 20:37:43

#281--Bikewoman--good evening!...your 1st paragraph says it all...

#285--Lynne--"me generation"....haven't heard that one in a long time, & it sure does apply today,, w/ parents & their children....

284

sandy,

USA 17/04/2007 20:44:28

#289--Lynne, #291--Bikewoman--i agree, however, i don't believe all colleges are like this,but there are many & your right, this must change.....

285

sandy,

USA 17/04/2007 20:47:33

must say g'nite.....happy, healthy & wise to all:))

286

sandy,

USA 17/04/2007 20:49:47

#276--57Nomad---thanks.........

287

Lynne,

USA 17/04/2007 21:02:32

Sandy, if you send your e-mail address to Nomad..he can send it to me!!! I think I solved the problem!!!!

288

Djookers,

17/04/2007 21:28:19

Bikewoman, Lynne,

Agree 100%, it's the parents. Over here in the UK as much as the US.

The sports thing I also agree with, though it is a US problem only.

One other thing I would get rid of is reality TV shows, where some brain dead numpty is held up as the new next thing, famous for being famous. The message that goes out from these shows is you that you dont need to try, no skill, talent or effort required, A prime example is Jade Goody, UK big brother winner, do a google of her name.

289

,

17/04/2007 22:28:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 538215, Article id was mapped to record!
290

,

18/04/2007 00:04:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 538304, Article id was mapped to record!
291

CHK,

18/04/2007 08:35:40

#300 Arieh, Israel

Hey Dude, your obviously a newbie to all this, I get my stuff through an RSS feed, means it all gets downloaded to my comp. After that, I need to quote something, I just do a copy and paste. Get one of your buddies to show how to do it.

BTW who is the "we" your talkin about. Only guys on these boards who worry about djookers are a bunch of trolls that follow him round. Seems to me they get hacked off because they cant get the better of him.

You one of those guys????

292

ImaDemSoldier,

18/04/2007 09:22:14

#270 Halitosis

You said IDS... Albright..as You said in previous postings.. "If the 500 000 children who were murdered under the direction of the UN/US and if they happened to be Jewish... or Israeli.... Would Madeline Albright call it a Price worth Paying... or would she Declare it a Holocaust."

I didn't say this. What article, what post? This is garbage. This is your own words, put up by you to what? make me look foolish? to discredit me?

You mentioned Albright, I copied what you stated to counter your attack on my character. There's a difference between attacking and talking.

Simply ridiculous fabrications, lol, you learn fast from your heroes.

You said "One mans meat I guess."

Are you offended my demeanor? I'm not the hard left or far right? That you would try to make me out to look like I feed off of things like this? It's not even worth a feedback. It's easy to see that you try to goat people into debates. Obviously, you like to hear yourself. Paint portraits as you see fit, of others.

To each his own, seriously, you got issues.

I wouldn't even know or care about far left, right what ever or what ever all that meant. I will probably get a lesson as soon as some one reads this, but, I wouldn't care. Politics sux, Politicians blow. You, Halitosis, you blow. You make these boards a bad place to be.

You said "IDS.. Theres no need to be thin skinned..."

Thin? you know you post to make people act thin skinned.

You said "If my style is a bit different from your.. or Lynnes... or whoever..."

There you go again, catergorizing.

You said "You are IDS...I am Halitosis."

Thank God, if I were you, I would probably shoot myself. Better yet, I would strap on a bomb and go looking for virgins, lol.

ImaDemSoldier
P***edOffatmyElectedDemOfficials

293

ImaDemSoldier,

18/04/2007 09:47:34

#273 Halitosis

You said "268 .IDS... You paint yourself as an ammiable sort of guy who more or less goes to Iraq in order to support your brothers rather than impose the will of GW Bush, and thats fine .. perhaps that is so."

This is who I am bubba, nothing more, nothing less. A human being.

You said "However ... to the ordinary Joe of whose country you occupy..."

Thats your opinion.

You said "no doubt your dressed up in the costume of a foreign soldier.. with layers of Armour.. helmet with stap done up and probably shades. .. and maybe you move around with purposefilled attitude."

Somewhat, ok I agree, but the purposedfilled attitude? hmm.. depends, but if I know you, from your previous posts. This doesn't mean good lol.

You said "I for one.. would tell you what is likely to please you.... Your friends in the Friendly US Military have killed many thousands of Iraqis..."

Please me? Again, you put words in my mouth. I have stated this since day 1, when I came to this site. I do not wish this for anyone. But, you are right about the thousands of Iraqi' being killed.

You said "maybe you wonder why.. they strap bombs on?"

I would never strap on a bomb to kill my own countrymen/women. I wouldn't do it to kill civilians. So yeah, I still wonder why. Well, not so much why, because of their culture and religion. But still, why?

You said "You seem terribly Naive to be soldier... Im beginin to wonder if your a fictional character."

Lol, I get that a lot. I grew up in Hawaii, where family and friends is everything. I put them before myself. Uhmm, yeah, dramas with the wife sometimes but, she does it to. I would give the next person the shirt of my back, and I have, 9 times that I can recall. But, my friends have also done the same.

To me, my family and friends are my treasure. I don't need to go looking for riches. I already have it. Som

294

CHK,

18/04/2007 14:15:27

#200 Dox

See you still dont like the truth

295

ImaDemSoldier,

18/04/2007 20:06:59

#275 Halitosis

You said "Hmmm Ima Dem Soldier... Yo in Scotland now.... Shape Up."

Hmm. Blue skies, white sandy beaches, clear blue waters, nice waves, green mountain range, Waikiki, North Shore.. Nope, this is definitely not Scotland. Scotland website, yeah, but definitely not Scotland here.

Dude, you mad? What, I need to fall in line with you because you say so? Oh, because this is a Scottish news site? I know, you goating me into another war of words lol. You're just to much.

I'm shaking in my boots with your little threat. I am, it's hilarious, I can't stop laughing.

Shape up IDS, you in Scotland now, lol, rofl, roflmao, roflmaosimb, simb = shaking in my boots, lol.

296

Djookers,

18/04/2007 21:01:42

#304 CHK

Your right, but I can fight my own battles thanks


 

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