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Published Date: 22 April 2007
CRITICISM mounted yesterday over a three-mile wall US troops are building around a Sunni enclave surrounded by Shi'ite areas in Baghdad, with residents calling it "collective punishment" and the local council leader saying the community did not approve the project before construction began.
As violence continued throughout the day with at least eight people killed in bomb and gun attacks - including a US soldier - the US military claimed the wall in the minority Sunni community of Azamiyah would secure a neighbourhood, "trapped in a spi
ral of sectarian violence and retaliation."

The area, located on the eastern side of the Tigris River, is to be gated, with entrances and exits manned by Iraqi soldiers, the US military confirmed. But some residents were alarmed about the plan, and said they had not been consulted about the barrier - in places 12ft tall - being built in their own neighbourhood.

"This will make the whole district a prison. This is collective punishment on the residents of Azamiyah," said Ahmed al-Dulaimi, a 41-year-old engineer who lives in the area. "They are going to punish all of us because of a few terrorists."

US and Iraqi forces have long erected cement barriers around marketplaces and coalition bases and outposts in Baghdad and other Iraqi cities but the Azamiyah project appears to be the biggest effort ever to break contact, and violence, between Sunnis and Shi'ites.

Khalid Ibrahim, 45, said the Americans were working hard to divide Baghdad's neighbourhoods - something he said he wasn't sure was a good thing.

"This is good if it is temporary, to help the area with security problems. But if this wall stays for the long term, it will be a catastrophe," said Ibrahim, an Azamiyah resident who works at the Interior Ministry.



The full article contains 301 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 April 2007 9:43 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: War in Iraq , Iraq
 
1

CurtJ,

Tanana USA 22/04/2007 03:15:02

"Mission Accomplished" rings hollow. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan when he ordered the Saudi Arabian and Egyptian al-Qaeda terrorists to hijack and crash those American passenger jets. Not Iraq.
We know that George Bush began planning the invasion of Iraq within 2 weeks of taking office in 2001. We know from the Downing Street Memo that intelligence was to be fixed in order to get approval for invasion.
The ever changing excuses for war.. WMD and the ability to use them in 45 minutes.. Bin Laden and al-Qaeda's link to Iraq.. Nation Building.. He tried to kill my daddy.. Yellow cake.. Doesn't take away the fact that he lied to the American Citizens and the world.
Why are we stuck in a Iraqi Civil War Quagmire instead of having 160,000 American Soldiers in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Worldwide, rooting out Bin Laden and al-Qaeda.
Due to the lies that got us mired down in Iraq.. The Bush Administration, Bush Family, Bush Friends, and Bush Political Donors and Cronies are raking in millions and billions of American Taxpayer dollars, in oil and wartime contracts, graft and corruption, and outright stealing.. Off the backs of almost 3350 dead American Soldiers, Marines, and Sailors and 850 dead Mercenaries. Face it.. Any civilian making a profit in a warzone is a Mercenary..
Who and how many in both the Bush Administration Officials, Republican and Democratic Legislator's, their Advisors, their Family members, Friends, and Campaign Donors have financial holdings in companies making a profit off the Iraqi Civil War?? BLOOD MONEY!!!

2

Wally,

Arizona 22/04/2007 04:38:13

CurtJ of #1:

I assume you're in a small town in Alaska with no roads to it even.

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2007/04/government-h...

from your post I think you could benefit from this link.

speaking of war profits - bush family is major stockholder in carlyle Group. Carlyle is a big defense contractor that has profited mightily from the whole thing. Especially carlyle has profited from the pipeline in Afghanistan. before the war the Afghan government had been talking to carlyle about building that pipeline, but gave Carlyle the heave-ho in summer of 2001. Then after the war an Afghan government official in charge of handing out the contract on that pipeline was meeting with a chinese company to build that pipeline. Unfortunately he died in a helicopter crash with the Chinese official he was speaking to. Then the president of Afghanistan came on American tv within days of the accident to gush to everyone that the Americans had sacrificed mightily to help Afghanistan and deserved rewards. then the contract for building the gas pipeline went to Carlyle. and good news for Carlyle stockholders - they are not just building the pipeline, they will be managing it too after it is built.

Carlyle is the company that the Bin Laden family of Saudi Arabia also owned shares in along with the Bush family. But after public uproat they told the Bin Ladens to sell out which they did. Do you remember that when bush was a young man he owned an oil company? The investment money that was used to create that company came from the Bin Laden family. The company lost money, but GW made money from it.

my point - there's no legitimate reason for either the Afghan war or the Iraq war or the Somali war now. You know the US is behind the Somali war also. Ethiopian army is paid for by the US and they are the ones who just mont

3

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 04:48:07

1. CurtJ

I agree with all you say apart from the 2nd sentence. There has been no valid proof that a member of Bush's family's friend's wayward son did the deed.

To help folk: we starve them.
To bring peace: we bomb them.
To provide freedom: we invade them.
To end division: we build a wall.

The logic of Empire.

4

Faramars,

Iran 22/04/2007 05:08:18

Finnking
well said ,thank you thank you .the results of illegal war in four short sentences .

5

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 06:04:36

#2 Wally

for those of you who have had a tedious week here's something to put a smile on your face. Wally, my little space faring friend, has reprimanded a poster on this site and then backed it up by citing the, "georgewashingtonblogspot" as his source.

Go there and see for yourself. It features a picture of the illustrious General and then a rather long opening exposition of the infamous attack on New York and the Pentagon hatched by the clever fiends who pull the president's puppet strings.

He does however make a serious and perhaps even substantiative charge against the poster in which Wally opines that the poster was too parochial and poorly traveled to accommodate thinking as subtle and insightful as Wally's. At this, we, and by we I mean every reader and poster on this site, are at a decided disadvantage. Wally, until it was confiscated by the Air Force and removed to where they have illegally stored in Area 51, was part of a crew of a space ship that has traveled thousands of light years and these guys, well, now, of course, it's just Wally, know a thing or two about a thing or two and can spot a conspiracy to plot an auto-attack from orbit.

For instance, Wally personally observed former president FDR, who everybody else thought died from the massive cerebral hemorrhage he suffered, being murdered by his Jewish doctor. So, everybody pay close attention to this guy because he KNOWS things! Also, one of these days the rescue ship from Alpha Centauri is going to show up looking for him and you don't wanna be on his doo-doo list when that happens.

6

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 06:52:49

Nomad

Wally can look after himself, but........

"for those of you who have had a tedious week here's something to put a smile on your face. Nomad, my little space faring friend, has reprimanded a poster on this site" and then completely failed to back it up!

"For instance, Nomad personally observed OBL, who everybody else thought was a suadi linked to the Bush family, organising 911. So, everybody pay close attention to this guy because he KNOWS things! Also, one of these days the rescue ship from Alpha Centauri is going to show up looking for him and you don't wanna be on his doo-doo list when that happens."

Come on Nomad, go through Wally's points and try and refute them.

;-)

7

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 07:06:37

Finnking...Popular Mechanics and many others already reuted Wally, who gets his knowledge from Alex Jones.. (Lord help us).
In Wally's life, CONSPIRACY RULES...
even at Virginia Tech.

8

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 07:11:41

*refuted*

9

Guga,

Rockall 22/04/2007 07:25:36

#3 Finnking. Well said. It is reminiscent of the Japanese invasion of China and the Rape of Nanking. They were only "liberating" them.

10

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 08:35:03

7. Lynne, USA

Lynne! (loud voice!)

I have asked you before,many times, to look into who owns Popular Mechanics and to look into the Official report. The popular Mechanics article frames the issue and answers its own questions. Also, do you honestly believe that the USA had only 41 fighter jets that were capable of taking off? Finland has more.

Please, don't use Popular Mechanics as some kind of authority. That's as crazy as using FOX for a balanced view of world events! Seriously, if you cite the Institute of Mechanical Engineers or The Institute of Architects, then I will give it higher probability of veracity. Popular Mechanics to Mechanical Engineers is what Everyday Electronics is to Electronic Engineers.

If that article is your only source to convince you that there are not some serious questions surrounding 911's official story, then I question your critical ability.

How's your partner doing?

9. Guga, Rockall

Hitler 'freed' Poland too. Stalin 'freed' Lithuania and Estonia etc.

There's a huge difference between having freedoms and having freedom. Slaves had freedoms. We have freedoms. Not freedom itself.

10. Rulesbutnotrulers

Aye, Although there used to be a web site called Iraqitunnel and the local freedom fighters would post to their supporters in the west that while thanking them for their support, they did not need more people or weapons. They had enough.

But yes, going by the same logic as seen on the Cho posts from the NRA crowd we should carry weapons on planes and, without doubt, provide them to the very few % of Muslims who are militant. Oh, sorry, 'we' already have supplied them (fight the evil commies and then the evil socialists in Europe and the nasty PKK in southern Turkey and....well, anytime 'we' want them to hit lefties).

11

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 08:42:27

4. Faramars

What is happening to Iraq in the last 15 years is what happened to Scotland 400 years ago. It's the tried and tested method of empire.

We, the normal everyday folk on this rock called Earth, will one day overcome. Step 1: stop thinking in terms of nationality/patriotism which only serve to divide. Think instead in terms of culture; a river that connects us all.

12

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 12:10:41

Finnking, Kinnking!!!! (loud voice) you cannot go by Wally and his conspiracy theories ..also those of Alex Jones. They have been debunked. Scientists have proved them wrong..and I do not care where they came from...
Rosie O'Donald said it would be the first time stell melted on WT 7. Obviously she never heard the words molten steel.
I am not going to sit here and debunk it all...you can read for yourself.

13

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 12:22:07

Nomad,
You're going to put Wally in the hospital. The doctors are going to mess with his mind and put him on meds.
Then we'll lose Wally.

14

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 12:25:31

Lynne,
I have no idea why the network supports Rosie, but fire Imus. It's pure hypocracy.
Additionally, I don't undertsand how she continues to have sponsors.

15

Ian,

22/04/2007 12:26:38

So 400 years ago in Scotland some country invaded us and bloody pseudo civil war ensued. What history books was that in ?
400 years ago the Scottish King took the English throne without conflict.The English wanted him to be their king also. 404 years ago to be blunt.
The English tried to rule Scotland by force for about 400 years but failed miserably apart from two very short periods where they were working hand in hand with Scottish royalty/nobility.
Hence the declaration of Arbroath (which the USA Dec of Indy copied) that basically stated that if the people of Scotland were not happy with the ruling king (if coluding with the English or not "doing good" for the people) they could depose him and put a "better man" in his place.

16

Ian,

22/04/2007 12:27:25

Sorry - my rant was for Finnking - # 12

17

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 12:34:23

I'll repeat what I said earlier.
The wall should be built at the perimeter of the Kurdish area and then heavily guarded; There should be an open gate for those families who want peace, prosperity and religous freedom. There should be a closed gate to all those who want violence and superiority over others.
This requires constant security checks. The neighborhood could expand naturally as it accomodated an increasing population who live in peace.
Is that idealistic?
No. It's far less fantastical than rebuilding Sadr City or Baghdad.

In the US we have what is called neighborhood watches. We in the neighborhood, knowing the neighbors, know who is and who is not a 'neighbor.'
We watch out for each other and help each other. We also report anything unusual.
For Iraq to attain peace, they will have to become good neighbors.

18

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 12:39:29

Building a wall to build a village circles back to The World Bank. The WB lends money to stable Uncorrupt, Non-violent areas. By charter, they can not lend money to build infrastructure to a war torn Iraq. To rebuild Iraq, they can only help in stable areas, such as the Kurdish area.

If logic was a war tool, and it isn't, every penny would be spent in the safe areas of Iraq to protect it, rebuild and maintain it.

19

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 13:08:46

Ian-
I think you have the history out of order.
Arbroath Articles was 14th century and well before Scotland 'conquered' England and 'took' the throne without violence, but I do agree England has ruled miserably

20

Wally,

Arizona 22/04/2007 13:47:39

King Nimrod & Lynne:

I think that blog I linked to in #2 is merely an essay that reviews evidence that the US government had prior knowledge of the september 11 events. The fellow in #1 assumed that the effort to go after bin Laden was legitimate, but not the Iraq War. and so I was merely advising him that the Afghan War is not legitimate either. Did not intend to hi-jack the thread to talk about sept 11 issues. But when you look at all the information showing that our government knew about the attacks in advance it is really tremendous. The 'GeorgeWashington' blog only skims over that evidence briefly. FinnKing is right that the Popular Mechanics article is dysfunctional. It simply does not address the issues raised by the 911 truth movement. it is a propaganda hit-piece and as I told you there was a complete management change in the month or two prior to writing that article.

21

Wally,

Arizona 22/04/2007 14:04:23

Regarding this wall-building in baghdad - they didn't need these walls prior to the 2003 invasion. The majority of Americans are strongly against the idea of US troops even being in Iraq. The first poll to show this was actually done about a week before the election of 2004. During that election we had 2 pro-war candidates running for president yet 55% of the Americans were saying 'bring the troops home'. and since then it is anywhere from 65-75% of the Americans in polls who will say that we should just bring the troops home. But the tv is almost 100% pro-war. and the politicians are not responding to the people. Earlier this year 75 democrats in the House of Representatives put their name on a bill that would require the president to bring the troops home in 6 months. and that traitor Pelosi will not allow that bill to be voted on and she directs all attention & effort to dysfunctional legislation. The top leaders of the Democrat party are not responsive to the people. same with the republican party.

Iraq is a severely oppressed nation, the victim of enormous violence also. And Americans need to understand that prior to the 2003 invasion this was not the case. The sectarian violence was almost non-existent in Iraq prior to the invasion. Since the invasion it has gone wild and we must ask 'why?'. consider the possibility that some of the perpetrators of this violence especially the ones who got it going may be agents of CIA or Mossad. By creating endless violence among the Iraqis the US justifies staying in Iraq. You know the embassy compound the US built in Baghdad is enormous, 10 times as big as any other embassy anywhere, as big as the Vatican. and there's a bunch of large military bases the US has built in Iraq. They apparently plan on staying and need justification to do so. Now they've convinced a lot of Americans that they must stay to hold things together, but things were held together before the US got there in 2003.

<
22

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 14:14:25

16. Ian

Ian

I grant you that no two events are exactly the same but there are parallels:

Today----Yesteryear

Sanction --- Siege
Sanction --- Scottish ships being blown up
Inflitration --- There were Scots in English ranks
Bribe a willing 'partner'-----James
Fund internal opinion makers --- Parcel o rougues

History? When was the Declaration?

Lynne: Building steel melts at what temperature? Aviation fuel burns at what temperature?


Carolyn1: World Bank only lends to stable nice governments? You kidding?

23

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 14:51:43

Finnking:
I will 'correct' that:
The World Bank under Wolfwitz aims to provide funds to countries/people where the money will be spent on what it was intended and not lost to corruption or war

In any event, the Kurds have been successful working with the US occupation, and have rebuilt the area after Hussein killed 50,000 of them. The 'other Iraq,' as they call themselves may be the only Iraq in a year.
Divide the country; build the wall, then build a soveriegn nation.

24

Wally,

Arizona 22/04/2007 14:55:15

Lynne & FinnKing:

I don't try to hijack thread towards 911 issues. but there seems to be great ignorance on this issue. I don't really want to spend time & effort to run through technical analysis of the WTC buildings falling on sept 11, 2001. but when that analysis is done it is very obvious that all 3 buildings including WTC 7 the 47 story building that was 100 yards away, was not hit by a plane, and was not significantly damaged by the falling of the other 2 buildings were brought down by demolition with pre-set bombs. A fellow who worked on the design team just the last 2-3 days shared info that the designers designated spots at each column-beam connection where explosives could go to bring down the building. Obviously, in the 2 weeks leading up to the event when the normal security guards were told to go home and new people were brought in they did rig the buildings for demolition. and on September 11, 2001 they were demolished.

There are a variety of absolute smoking guns to prove this. One is the speed with which they all 3 fell, all 3 at nearly free-fall speed, this can only happen with a professional demo. and then there's the pools of molten steel that the workmen on the site were so impressed by. The jet fuel cannot possibly produce actually melted steel in liquid form. It is simply not anywhere hot enough. Obviously a chemical based (thermite or thermate) explosive was used to melt that steel, and then the excessive quantities of the chemical continually interacted with the steel to keep it liquid for weeks until the workmen removed it. and a sample taken from the site by a workman analyzed by professor Stephen Jones the physics professor fired from BYU for researching 911 did confirm that thermite was used on the steel.

I've only given an extremely small quantity of info regarding this, if you're interested in it, then please do research, buy books, buy videos, etc.

Regarding the sept 11 events there is m

25

Wally,

Arizona 22/04/2007 14:56:28

The World Bank & International Monetary Fund are tools of the empire known as the New World Order. they're tools used to enslave nations.

26

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 15:24:09

Carolyn1:

I don't understand your point. Please explain it for a numpty like me.

50 000 kurds killed by Saddam, you say?
How's the PKK holding out?
Who helped Turkey bomb the hell out of the Kurdish villages during the sanctions period?

27

Djookers,

22/04/2007 15:25:22

Just to set the record straight as a few seem to be unsure.
The "Declaration of Arbroath" was signed on the 6th April 1320 in the reign of Robert the Bruce while Scotland was still under attack by Edward II.

28

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 15:32:01

Carolyn1

So, when Saddam kills folk it's bad but when 'we' do it it's okay, yeah?

http://www.serendipity.li/hr/pilger01.htm

29

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 15:33:47

32. Djookers

Christ, yer like the yanks, aye late tae a rammy!

On the WB and IMF:

Read Stiglitz!!!!!!!

30

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 15:37:28

#24 Finnking

Once again, my class struggling buddy, you seem to be trying to make a point where there is no point to be made. You have referenced the melting point of steel. I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out but I will do it once again, this time by way of an experiment that everyone can perform themselves.

First let us understand the relationship between "structural rigidity" and "melting point." Everyone reading this who has access to A. a freezer, or, in case you are Finnking the ability to step outside, and B. a chocolate bar.

Finnking, take your chocolate bar and leave it out side for a couple of seconds, everyone else take your chocolate bar and put it in your freezer for five minutes. Once it is well frozen, suspend the chocolate bar between two water glasses of the same height so that the points of suspension are at the tips of the chocolate bar. Then, in the middle of the chocolate bar place a salt shaker and wait. It will be a little boring but not as boring as Tower conspiracy plots.

When first placed there the chocolate bar will easily support the salt shaker. That is to say that the frozen chocolate bar has a certain structural rigidity when frozen. After some time has passed if your kitchen is heated to about 80 degrees Fahrenheit you will here the sound of your salt shaker crashing down.

Now, determine the temperature of the chocolate bar. Then look in your cookbook and find the melting point of chocolate. You will find that the structural rigidity required to support the salt shaker was compromised by temperatures far below the melting point of chocolate (anyone who has made fudge, of course, already know this).

Then decide for yourself how valid Finnking and Wally's theories on why the Towers collapsed are.

31

Djookers,

22/04/2007 15:42:42

#16 Ian

The bit Finnking is talking about was known as "the rough wooing"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_Wooing

and was between the declaration of Arbroath and the union of the crowns on March 24, 1603. In fact it was the precursor for the union, as England attempted to force Scotland towards the Protestant faith.
Yet one more instance of people being killed because of religious belief.

32

Djookers,

22/04/2007 15:45:21

#34 Finnking

dont you call me a Vigorous Jerk,

and just you remember that you would be speaking german now if I didnt come and save you

33

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 15:52:49

#32 Dj

Being under attack by Edward the Second!! My goodness!! All the Bruce really had to do was to sack the royal make-up wagon and hair dressing supplies to send the vicious Eddie the Duce mincing back to his castle in a snit.

34

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 15:56:37

35. 57Nomad,

Ha ha, my little Nomad driving eloquent friend! How's tricks? Up to the usual ones I see! Pseudo knowledge couched in eloquence. You and that other liberal William Buckley would get on great! ;-)

Are you referring to Young's Modulus of Elasticity?

Now, let's play with your absurdity of an example:

Does the chocolate tumble down at freefall? No.
Does the chocolate handily land in a pile of nice sections? No.
Does the base of the chocolate remain hot for a long period of time? No.

35

Djookers,

22/04/2007 16:01:07

#39 TSW

Maybe you need to find yourself a Vigorous jerk then.

36

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 16:01:27

Edward II

Aye, a hot poker up yer bum if a military expedition fails. That system really should be brought back!

37

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 16:03:53

42. Djookers

Aye, the VJ's are fair at it!

38

Djookers,

22/04/2007 16:07:56

#40 No

The Scots preferred using diplomacy, wrote a big letter to the pope (13th century equivalent of the UN) and got 300 years of peace without a fight.

39

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 16:09:13

Nomad Driver -- 6 or 8?

BTW: It's TROPICAL here!

http://www.fmi.fi/saa/paikalli.html?kunta=Tampere

40

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 16:09:41

Nomad...great experiemtn...even a numpty could understand!!

41

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 16:10:15

+experiment*

42

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 16:10:40

46. Djookers

Well.... plus a bit nastiness in Northumbria. And York. Did the Pope reply?

43

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 16:13:48

48. Lynne, USA

No Lynne. Not a great experiment. A numpty could however believe that such an absurd 'experiment' is some way answers out the only tall buildings in history crashing down at freefall speed because of fire.

44

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 16:35:29

Lynne

Did you look into Popular Mechanics?

Who Owns PM? Hearst Communications Inc!
Who did Hearst support politically?
Who is PM's editor? James B. Meigs
What did James B. Meigs do before? :Edited Entertainment Weekly!

45

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 16:42:58

#41 Finnking

Please reference your endless posts wherein you try to make the point that the temperature of burning avgas is below the below the melting point of steel. Wait, I'll do it for you.

"The jet fuel cannot possibly produce actually melted steel in liquid form. It is simply not anywhere hot enough. Obviously a chemical based (thermite or thermate) explosive was used to melt that steel, and then the excessive quantities of the chemical continually interacted with the steel to keep it liquid for weeks until the workmen removed it."


The reason that you reference this is to leave the impression in the minds of the reader that melting steel is required to cause the collapse of the structure the steel supports. You can save the:

"Are you referring to Young's Modulus of Elasticity?

Now, let's play with your absurdity of an example:

Does the chocolate tumble down at freefall? No.
Does the chocolate handily land in a pile of nice sections? No.
Does the base of the chocolate remain hot for a long period of time? No."

for your lightweight buddies but don't try to get that thin stuff past me. Does the chocolate tumble down? What does that have to do with anything? The saltshaker crashes down.

Does the chocolate remain hot? You are one of the non-fudgemakers I see. I invite you to dump a pound or two of chocolate chips into a sauce pan and melt them, not get them soft, but melt them so that the chips become a single liquid mass. Then remove them from the heat wait a minute or two and stick your hand into it. Then when the bandages come off come back and tell everyone how long a substance that was solid at room temperature retains heat after it has been heated to its melting point.

Will you please reference your source for the claim that that there was liquid steel at the base of the towers and that that liquid steel remained liquid for two weeks.

46

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 17:14:22

#36
or my point-
rough wooing is classic Brit history=
England ruled miserably
Scotland lost use of its knees
#31
A wall can be made out of bricks, or cement, for example- Finland must have a few
What is PKK?
History is for books and should stay there- lets get a clean slate on the table

47

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 17:16:58

#33
I'm not aware of the number of Kurds killed by Finns-
I hope the Finns didn't take part in the genocide of the Turks or the kurds or the armenians

48

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 17:17:18

#51 Finnking

This is rich. From Finnking:

"A numpty could however believe that such an absurd 'experiment' is some way answers out the only tall buildings in history crashing down at freefall speed because of fire."

Let me get this straight. You are equating the 9/11 incident wherein two jetliners crashed into buildings with other buildings that caught on fire by way of smoking in bed or an overheated hot plate. And you're the guy who thinks my experiment is lame. I gotcha. Okay.

By the way, while insulting my experiment, you have in no way refuted it. It is your contention that the steel had to melt in order for the collapse to take place. You have hinged your argument on that many times, today included. You are disproved. You may not like it but that's neither here nor there. You are disproved.

49

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 17:22:09

#36Djookers

This is a real doozie.
???
The English attempted to force Scotland toward protestantism...

Attempted?
England paid out a pile of cash to the money-hungry corrupt scot parliament and another big pile to the exiled First Blast author who should have been hanged J. Knox.
I could teach this class but I will stop here and keep my blood pressure under control.
England/UK made a mess in Africa and it made a mess in the middle east. Scotland is lucky is survived as well as it did.

50

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 17:30:36

Nomad & Finnking
this is as good as the sunday funnies. Thank you!
Where's the chemist when you need one?
Chocolate has a much lower melting point/cooling ratio than a metal
But it's a fun analogy and I just got choc. frosting out of the fridge which is perfectly firm and yummy

51

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 17:31:39

53. 57Nomad,

Liar Liar Pants on Fire (will you legs collapse?)

Endless posts? No true.
Reference the text you post?: Not true.

Young modulus is exactly the principle that you were using to explain the warm chocolate not being able to distribute a vertical load.

You could also look up buckling of members.

Yes, the saltshaker crashes down. But, assuming you have done your 'experiment', did the salt shaker fall perfectly vertical to the central gravity line? No. The chocolate buckled in the middle and the salt shaker's centre of gravity moved and it toppled off the chocolate. In pretty much the same way that a building would. In exactly the same way that 3 NY building DIDN'T.

As for the heat retention: What's your point?

It's funny, but you eloquently condemn Wally for what he posts and then you yourself make ridiculous comments about comparing H-beam steel girders with chocolate. It's absurd, Nomad. If your written eloquence correlates with cognitive ability, then you KNOW that building DO NOT fall down like that due to fire. Why persist? Hearst Comms Inc (founded by a nazi, by the way) produce the ONLY magazine on the planet that props up the Commission Report's absurdity.

You don't answer the specific questions posed to you. You create quotations out of the blue. You create a farcical 'experiment' (totally different structural properties, apart from anything else) to debunk the claim that there is no way AvFuel (as you say) could contain and distribute enough concentrated energy to melt so many h-section steel girders that the weight applied would completely demolish the building in an amazingly vertical manner. You talk of 'lightweight friends'. And then you ask me to give you the source of my claim, (my actual quote, "Does the base of the chocolate remain hot for a long time") and now re-quoted by you- "Liquid Steel for 2 weeks"!?? You alter my text and then ask me to c

52

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 17:46:08

57. 57Nomad

"Let me get this straight. You are equating the 9/11 incident wherein two jetliners crashed into buildings with other buildings that caught on fire by way of smoking in bed or an overheated hot plate. And you're the guy who thinks my experiment is lame. I gotcha. Okay."

Classic Nomad! A good 8/10 on the Nomad Liberal Crazy Argument Scale! Well done.

Look at my posts above. I offered no experiment. You IMAGINED it Nomad. You see things that are not there. Many Liberals do, I hear tell.

and then a good 9/10 on the Nomad eloquent seriously disturbed Posting Scale:

"It is your contention that the steel had to melt in order for the collapse to take place. You have hinged your argument on that many times, today included. You are disproved. You may not like it but that's neither here nor there. You are disproved."

I will keep that (along with you 'write nazi in the ground with your teeth' quote) as examples of why I no longer discuss with you (today's an aberration!). You are devoid of critical ability, you fake quotes and you distort what folk say to suit yourself. Yeah sure, the writing's good, well done. Well written lies and distortion.

Let's look at the above para:

"It is your contention that the steel had to melt in order for the collapse to take place."

Did I? It was the 911 Commission that made the claim and the much vaunted Popular Mechanics. I referred to Young's Modulus.

"You have hinged your argument on that many times, today included"

Have I? Not me. Commission and PM

"You are disproved. You may not like it but that's neither here nor there. You are disproved"

Am I? In your eyes, perhaps. But you lie and distort things so who cares? Disproved? Your own bizarre pseudo scientific numpy experiment with a bar of chocolate supports me and Wally on this single point! And you don't even see that!

Chr

53

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 17:50:17

56. Carolyn 1

Yes, the Finns are evil tyrants somewhere on the outer edges of the axis of evil. Tarja Halonen was the 10 of clubs on Idiot Boy's 'pack of cards', if memory serves.

TSW: PKK---- Porty Krusty Klan. Do you know nothing!

54

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, ma 22/04/2007 17:51:54

You guys are so amusing.

This crazy analogy you have going is like saying when a person is stabbed by another person he died from heart failure as he slowly bled out.

Do you think the building collapsed due to a stress fracture?

55

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 17:57:51

#60

This is getting better and better:

This from Finnking #24:

Lynne: Building steel melts at what temperature? Aviation fuel burns at what temperature?

Then this from Finnking #60:

"Endless posts? No true.
Reference the text you post?: Not true."

You clearly made the claim in #24 that the towers failed because the steel melted. Then when I demonstrated that there is a difference between melting and just getting hot and its correlation with the structural rigidity of the steel, all of a sudden I'm the liar. Right. Nice try, buckwheat. You are embarrassing yourself. As to the direction (straight down) of the collapsing towers, perhaps you are thinking that the law of gravity had somehow been suspended, perhaps by Karl Rove, and that the towers should have fallen in a nice ellipse.

Here' another experiment, drop something and then notice which direction it falls. The only time that that won't happen is if there is outside force applied (see Newton's laws of motion for the last word on that subject).

56

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 17:58:19

You are all forgetting the jet fuel, which was spilled in these buildings and on fire. That was burining also in temperatures well over 2,000 degrees..
What is the matter with you people. 2 PLANES, 2 BUILDINGS set on fire..extensive heat..

THE PLANES AND FIRE BROUGHT THE BUILDINGS DOWN...

57

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, ma 22/04/2007 18:04:57

I'm going to start a wall building consulting business. I'm going to be rich.
I'm going to specialize in designs of really big walls, with a little bitty doors.

58

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, ma 22/04/2007 18:06:20

I am also going to design really big walls with little bitty doors to keep out conspiracy theorists.
Their pass card key will self destruct before it opens the gate.

59

,

22/04/2007 18:12:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 551500, Article id was mapped to record!
60

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, ma 22/04/2007 18:14:23

PS
The PKK is a terrorist organization that may no longer exist

61

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 18:16:26

72. Carolyn 1

Define 'terrorist' and tell me why they 'may no longer exist'?

62

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, ma 22/04/2007 18:19:10

I thought their leader 'surrendered' last year?
I thought they came to some kind of peaceful solution?

63

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, ma 22/04/2007 18:19:56

Terrorist is an evil doer.
BY GWB handbook primer says so.

64

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, ma 22/04/2007 18:24:47

Since they're funded by Russia, if the PKK is not disbanded, they will be, because I think Russia is seeing the light at the end of the tunnel- and the light is not Iranian made.

65

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 18:25:17

74. Carolyn 1,

Yeah? I didn't know!

You have a link to that?

66

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, ma 22/04/2007 18:26:32

Off to rake the lawn until the stomach cries out again for more chocolate frosting on a spoon with coffee.. bzz, bzz

67

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 18:33:00

Finnking-
Is this a test?
I think it was a cease fire in 06 due to the EU, NATO and US slapping a freeze on their assets.
Even terrorits need to pay for rent and bullets. But you know my brain, its all a big slushy kind of thing going on up there, can't even spell
Off to rake
its 60 farenheit
I can perhaps turn the heat off in a week or two.

68

Finnking,

Finland 22/04/2007 18:38:41

80. Carolyn 1

No test

Enjoy the garden.

69

bill, england,

22/04/2007 18:46:52

76. Carolyn 1, Woods Hole, ma

Carolyn, I've been away for a week, I come back and you're still posting rubbish!

"Since they're funded by Russia, if the PKK is not disbanded, they will be, because I think Russia is seeing the light at the end of the tunnel- and the light is not Iranian made."

The PKK gets its funding from Europe, admittedly by dubious means.

The PKK's branch in Iraq is funded by your very own CIA.

70

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 18:56:11

#69 Carolyn ...do you need a partner?

71

bill, england,

22/04/2007 18:57:12

Pass Kard Key as in #69.

72

Pilrig,

Livingston 22/04/2007 19:08:55

18 - ah, if life was only that simple and uncomplicated !

73

Pilrig,

Livingston 22/04/2007 19:14:13

36 - England attempted to force Scotland towards the protestant faith ? Mair like the Tudors were a bunch of power-crazed loonies (syphilitic loony in the case of Henry VIII)

74

Djookers,

22/04/2007 19:18:45

#58 Carolyn 1

"#36Djookers

This is a real doozie.
???
The English attempted to force Scotland toward protestantism...

Attempted?
England paid out a pile of cash to the money-hungry corrupt scot parliament and another big pile to the exiled First Blast author who should have been hanged J. Knox.
I could teach this class but I will stop here and keep my blood pressure under control."

Of all the drivel you have posted on these threads this has to be the most inaccurate pile of crud yet.

The rough wooing was the prelude to the union of the crowns in 1603, and as my post at 36 states was when the English attempted to force Scotland toward protestantism.
The english bribery of the Scots nobility was done to ensure the act of union was signed. That was in 1707, 104 years later. How you managed to lose 104 years of history and then claim you could "teach this class" is the real doozie.

Just so we all know how QUALIFIED you are to "teach this class" here is a quote from your post at #20

"I think you have the history out of order.
Arbroath Articles was 14th century"

The "Declaration of Arbroath" was signed on the 6th April 1320,

Again you are a century out. So professor of scottish history, in 2 posts you managed to lose over two centuries worth of history.

As for Knox.
Another religious nutter I have no time for, but he did ensure that every parish had a school and that every child learned to read and write. He of course did it so the whole country would be able to read the bible, unfortunately he didn't quite think it through and the most literate country in the world soon turned to reading books other than the bible. The consequence of that was the Scottish Enlightenment, without which the USA in general and the freedoms you are so fond of spouting about in particular would be very different than they are.
Self evident

75

bill, england,

22/04/2007 19:29:47

86, 87. thatscottishwoman

Back again from holiday in sunny Kent!

Can't face a Wolfy video yet, the man makes me sick at sight.

76

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 19:30:39

#84
Lynne
I thought you would be my communication expert since neither of us know anything about computers

77

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 19:34:51

#88
Pilrig
We only need to speak quietly and carry a big stick. We'll need a good lock smith also.

78

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 19:39:20

Djookers-
John Knox was a little bast#rd who was well paid and controlled by England which forever changed history. Are you showing your English stripes?
He should have been hanged with the rest of the traitors.
Don't preach Scot history to me if you can't separate the truth from the fantasy

79

Pilrig,

Livingston 22/04/2007 19:44:11

All they need are a few shovels to tunnel their way oot.

80

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 19:44:52

Djookers-
Another point: If you study history, you will find that Mary Stuart, was the first ruler to allow religous freedom. She could have had Knox killed or deported, but she did not because she was trying to unite a country. Also, she finanically supported the country on her income, she gave much money to the poor.
Unfortunately, she was a woman, and a Catholic- and Scotland lost its last great chance to be great.

81

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 19:45:29

Shovels!
D#mn!

82

bill, england,

22/04/2007 19:47:19

93. thatscottishwoman

I thought you'd been to Perth and Aberdeen and all over the place in my absence.

I'm trying to be virtuous now I'm back, and I didn't make the obvious ending to #92's incomplete sentence!

83

Pilrig,

Livingston 22/04/2007 19:48:04

John Knox - it was thanks to the influence of this guy and his pal Calvin (murderer of Servetus), that it wasn't until the 1980s that they allowed pubs ro open in a Sunday in Scotland.

84

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 19:49:25

Carolyn...perfect job for me!!! I can see your "Board"
will be made of "experts"...

85

Djookers,

22/04/2007 19:54:58

#95 Carolyn

Noticed you wanted to bang on about Knox, I already said I had no time for him. But then that allows you to blithely skip over the complete erse you made of Scottish history.

I listed 3 FACTS which you got totally wrong, no fantasy involved. You should change your name to Clueless 1.

Speaking of fantasy, I bet you think William Wallace painted his face blue and a shiltron is a long wooden pole.

86

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 19:55:12

Pilrig,
I've been thinking agout the shovel situation/dilemna.
I've decided to open a shovel store (on the wrong side of the wall) and we'll import them from China. As you know, if it's from China, the quality is poor, and it invariably breaks down when you need it. So I'm going to be twice as rich. Thank you!

87

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 20:00:06

Ah, another of my favorite topics-
As a matter of fact, I have it on good source that Wallace was amused by the blue faces - that's hollywood he said, and that he also believed buffoonery was important- so who knows - maybe he and his buddies did bare their butt.

88

Djookers,

22/04/2007 20:03:43

#97 Carolyn

I read this much and stopped.

Djookers-
Another point: If you study history,

as history is obviously not something you know about.

89

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 20:06:13

Djookers,

1. Last I checked 14th century means 1300s and includes 1320
And yes, the pope read the articles.
2. The english bribed the lords with regular paycheck payments during the time of Knox.
3. the rough wooing was to get the scots to hand the child mary over to a english king but they sent mary to france instead. She never signed control of scotland over to england.
4. I don't have any of my scot history wrong, if I do- I'll learn it. Maybe you're thinking of the guy I corrected? Ian?

90

Wally,

Arizona 22/04/2007 20:07:54

King Nimrod in 53:

Chris bollyn who is a journalist then writing for American free Press which is both a magazine and an internet site is the one who documented best the pools of liquid steel at the bottom of the rubble pile. They were still liquid some of them when the workers got to it 4 or 5 weeks after the sept 11 2001 incident. bollyn quoted the two owners of the demolition firms hired to take the debris out. both men said that there were many pools (about 65) in the rubble and always at the bottom. Also, it was widely reported in the mass media that a NASA plane was flown over the wreckage in the 2-3 days after the incident and had some device on it to measure temperatures. They measured fantastically hot temperatures at many 'hot spots' in the rubble. Also, the workers themselves were witnesses to these pools of liquid steel. Their shoes were melting when walking on debris above the hot spots. There are many witnesses. And photos exist also of buckets from heavy equipment being used to dip into the pools and take the steel out while it was red hot and in liquid form.

the jet fuel does burn hot enough to cause the steel to weaken. But it is not reasonable that the jet fuel could have weakened the steel because the heat dissipates very quickly in a steel structure, it travels rapidly in the steel and all the steel is connected to each other, and then the jet fuel would burn off very quickly as well. It has been calculated that a pool of jet fuel one foot thick over the entire floor of the WTC would burn off in about 15 minutes and the flames from such a fire would only shoot up 3-4 feet at most. Remember, one fireman who was in the building said that he found the source of the fire and that it was not the jet airplane. He said he found the jet airplane and that it was largely in tact just sitting on the floor.

But it is completely impossible for the jet fuel to burn hot enough to cause the liquid or molten steel phenomenon. O

91

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 20:09:35

#71 Finnking

This from Finnking:

"You are a fraud. No crime. It's the lies that I can't be bothered with. Your latest post at 63 is simply disgusting in its manipulation of the above posts"

First of all, post #63 is your post not mine. Secondly, every single person reading this thread knows that you have been caught out by your outrageous lie that the Tower's collapsed because the steel melted and that you are now trying to save face by calling me names. It's not going to work. You have made the claim that on 9/11 America attacked itself and that the Towers collapsed because the steel melted.

Here is a direct quote from your post #24 to Lynne:

"Lynne: Building steel melts at what temperature? Aviation fuel burns at what temperature?"

You then go on to state that because there was a two week old puddle of molten steel lying around that that proves your point the the collapse was caused by explosives and not the burning jet fuel. There was no two week old puddle of molten steel laying around. Secondly the Towers collapsed because the steel lost its rigidity because of the heat. Steel does that, that's how the beams were formed in the first place. You're not going to call me a liar and a fraud and then try to get off the hook, buster, the only one trying to perpetuate lies and fraud is Finnking.

I urge all readers to just look at post #24 so that you don't think I'm making this up. This is a transparent sophistry and everyone can see it. If you don't like lies then I urge you to stop lying.

92

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 20:19:52

Lynne,
My great Communcations Director, I'm glad we have a sense of humor.
Should we allow graffitii on the wall?
What about murals?

93

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 20:38:21

#Wally,

You have just quoted Chris Bollyn:

"Chris bollyn who is a journalist then writing for American free Press which is both a magazine and an internet site is the one who documented best the pools of liquid steel at the bottom of the rubble pile.

Here is a quote from Chris Bollyn's own website:

"Chris Bollyn has just been arrested tonight in
> Chicago
> in his front yard. See below, and be sure to read
> his
> article at the bottom about the
> ZionistMedia/Israel/Lebanon connection."

Please tell me that you're not the guy who admonished Lynne not to quote from the radical "Popular Science," or was it the equally fanatical "Popular Mechanics?"

As for the American Free Press it is a very interesting publication. One of the things that's interesting is that they carry Chris Bollyn as a contributor. They are rather conservative, even radically so, according to some, on their economic policies. The are fervent supporters of the Bush tax cuts including the death tax, wants them deeper, and made permanent. They are adamantly opposed to any loss of national sovereignty or international tax. They are isolationist as far as trade policy goes, but so are a significant portion of both Democrats and Republicans.

Here's the interesting part concerning Bollyn, one of his latest contributions is a grass stains on the knees homage to the Marxist Hugo Chavez. This shows a remarkable tolerance of view points by the AFP but the fact that they publish his work from time to time doesn't mean that that can be taken as an endorsement. To cop a phrase from the lefties, you could consider Bollyn to be a neo-com.

94

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 20:44:34

Carolyn...I like murals...graffiti looks "ghettoey"!!

95

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 20:49:40

#Wally 108

"But it is not reasonable that the jet fuel could have weakened the steel because the heat dissipates very quickly in a steel structure, it travels rapidly in the steel and all the steel is connected to each other, and then the jet fuel would burn off very quickly as well."

Wally, stick to Zorkian metallurgy because the terrestrial type escapes you. You are completely wrong about the heat conductivity of steel. You apparently have it confused with copper. Steel is very heat resistant and a poor conductor of it. Instead of moving it along like copper does, it just gets hotter and hotter and hotter. After getting hot it holds the heat for a long time. You are mistaken, my little space cadet, but I like you anyway and would love to meet you some time as I think we could have some laughs. Rock on!!

96

Pilrig,

Livingston 22/04/2007 21:11:24

Carolyn, hen, since it was my suggestion about he shovels you could send a few quid/dollars of you're ill-gotten loot in this direction ?
cheers.

97

Sandi,

California 22/04/2007 21:29:32

I find some of the conspiracy theory difficult to believe, who wouldn't? But I'm very, very sure that 9-11 didn't happen exactly the way we've been told so far.


http://www.loosechange911.com/

98

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2007 21:29:38

#113
Lynne
You are a brilliant communications director.
Since we are building a wall for equal opportunity, and ghettos are outlawed because we say so, the murals will be truly inspirational.

99

Wally,

Arizona 22/04/2007 21:58:03

King Nimrod in 112 & 114:

you asked where the link was to show that there were pools of molten hot steel in the wreckage weeks after the event, and I told you where it came from. It appeared in American free Press magazine when chris Bollyn used to write for them. but there are also many firemen & construction workers who were on the site removing the debris who spoke openly about it in many sources. The AFP article is notable because it quoted the two individuals who owned the companies hired to remove the debris by name and attributed to them statements that the hot liquid steel pools were there.

Whether you like or dislike American Free Press isn't the issue, the issue is the facts behind. and remember, the mass media quoted the NASA people as saying the hot spots were there and it quoted some fantastic temperature that is much hotter than what jet fuel or any other debris in the wreckage would burn at. Whatever caused those hot spots and the molten steel was much much hotter.

and I am still very confident in my analysis of the steel. I have a professional background in that area even. It may not transfer heat as well as copper, but the principal is the same. that is why no steel structure building has ever fallen down in a fire. They can burn for days and the steel will possibly sag a bit and get a bit weaker, but the safety factors in design are such that they do not fail under a fire.

Get video documentaries from the link Sandi gave above or from Alex Jones' web site or from many others. Buy books written by the sept 11 doubters. These are your only sources, and then make up your minds. I tell you the mass media has clamped down on all of this info completely.

and I tell you also that in the future this type of info will certainly become harder to get and may be impossible to get.

That fellow chris bollyn was attacked 6 months ago or so by local police where he lives outside of chicago. you can re

100

Lynne,

USA 22/04/2007 23:02:34

Wally, I do not have to follow your links. I WATCHED IT. I saw the 2 planes go into the buildings. I saw the people jumping from the towers to certain death.I saw the buildings fall...You say what you want..I know how it happened...and there was no conspiracy to bring down these buildings. People were still rushing in when they started to fall.
The only thing you are doing Wally, is staining their memories with garbage, and hurting survivors.

101

,

22/04/2007 23:24:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 552280, Article id was mapped to record!
102

57Nomad,

california 22/04/2007 23:33:32

#118 Wally

Are you the same Wally who I quote below from your previous post?

"the jet fuel does burn hot enough to cause the steel to weaken. But it is not reasonable that the jet fuel could have weakened the steel because the heat dissipates very quickly in a steel structure, it travels rapidly in the steel and all the steel is connected to each other, and then the jet fuel would burn off very quickly as well."

I'd like to call your attention to an excerpt from the above posting by Wally:

"But it is not reasonable that the jet fuel could have weakened the steel because the heat dissipates very quickly in a steel structure, it travels rapidly in the steel"

I pointed out to you subsequent to this post that steel does not dissipate heat very quickly. This destroys the "the Towers didn't fall because the steel support beams weakened. And the reason that that couldn't have happened is because steel is a fast conductor of heat and would have dissipated it too quickly for it to loose its structural integrity."

You and yours have been trying to make this point for a long time. Now I have shown you that what you believe isn't true and who ever told you that it was deceived you. I told you the truth. Who's your buddy now?

103

Lynne,

USA 23/04/2007 00:35:36

I have just read that Maliki want to stop the building of the wall.
I for one, think he is wrong. Because of him we let Sadr go, and now look at those results. We should continue to build the wall..

104

Finnking,

Finland 23/04/2007 04:00:37

Bill: Welcome 'home'. White Cliffs and Shepherd Neame?

Wally: You have a far greater level of patience than I have. Remember that when people attack you, twist your words and lie, you know they are scared to think for themselves. Keep it up.

Lynne: If your belief system encourages you to accept rather than question, then I can well understand why you chose to believe that the energy created by plane fuel was in an order of magnitude to enhance the elesticity of steel enough that an entire building fell down. So, the 'plane' that hit the Pentagon just dissappeared, did it? Enough energy to vapourise engine parts? Since 911 I have travelled through approx. 15 countries. EVERYBODY I spoke to about 911 laughs at the official explanations. Lockerbie? 7/7?

Building walls in not the answer to the question of harmony.

Djookers: You have to hand it to the English. A leader fails in a military adventure (EdwardII) and he gets a hot poker up the bum. "Bend over Herr. Bliar."

Nomad: Yer tea's well oot.

Carolyn1: You'll find that the concept of religious belief has been abused by the ruling classes for centuries to manipulate the herd into geo-political warfare. I admire Wally, Bill and Oliver F etc for retaining their faith while questioning mortal authority.

Where is Oliver F? Anyone heard of him lately?

105

,

23/04/2007 09:06:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 553097, Article id was mapped to record!
106

Old Man,

23/04/2007 10:51:16

The US is good at building walls, are they not building one near Mexico?

107

Wally,

Arizona 23/04/2007 11:08:36

127 Old Man:

you said "The US is good at building walls, are they not building one near Mexico?"

the people who rule the US are extremely good at deception. Their game-plan on immigration is to greatly increase the levels of immigration which is against the will of about 85% of the Americans. There has been some talk about building a wall at the border, but it is just talk.

They are implementing the North American Union which merges Canada, the US & Mexico into one government structure.

108

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 11:11:51

Robert Frost, American Poet wrote in his poem Mending wall
"Good fences make good neighbors."

Yes, the US will build a good fence.
Hopefully, it will save lives.

109

Wally,

Arizona 23/04/2007 11:26:33

123 FinnKing: thanks for those nice comments.

I'm like you in that I marvel at how the conspiracy theorists on sept 11 2001 events say that the 2 jets that crashed into buildings in New York had such magical qualities to do so much - and yet the plane that crashed into the pentagon was so feeble and could not even dent the building throughout most of its width.

I actually do have a degree in engineering from a top university where I studied building design & civil engineering, and I have a lot of experience in building construction. and I have looked very closely at the issues on sept 11 and I've concluded the 3 WTC buildings were demolished. once you look at the actual details there's no way to conclude that they were not demolished. To see what happened you have to get information sources outside the mass media and outside the official story. Unfortunately, the Americans don't get such sources as well as others around the world, and we have that pride thing going where our pride prevents us from seeing what our 'leaders' have done. Believe me FinnKing - it is a very sad thing from American point of view.

Regarding the faith thing you mentioned - it is very sad that in America the leaders of the various churches are generally pro-war. There is a great rebellion in the ranks over it, but very sadly the institutions are generally controlled by people who are either pro-war or who will not speak against it. There are many American christians who are anti-war, but they are losing the battles inside the institutions and instead just leaving the churches.

As you know I take a christian view. and I think that all of the institutions of man are being discredited including the churches. I am loyal to the bible prophecies and think that when jesus returns that he will make certain interventions in our affairs and everyone all over the world will be able to discern this at that time.

110

Wally,

Arizona 23/04/2007 11:45:06

131 ScotishWoman:

I don't know how the North American Union (NAU)compares to EU and I don't know how much sovereignty is being taken from the 3 nations in this change. I do know that president Bush agreed to put us under this NAU structure and so did the presidents of Canada & Mexico. They're merging the policies of the 3 nations. They're building a new court system to over-rule the national court systems. The typical pattern is that elected officials of the 3 nations will have less power and unelected bureaucrats of these new structures will take that power.

I found a few links for you.

http://americanpolicy.org/pdf/NAUFS3.pdf

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=28490

http://www.newswithviews.com/iserbyt/iserbyt36.htm

http://www.newswithviews.com/Yates/steven19.htm

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14965

http://www.channelingreality.com/NAU/NAU_Main.htm

Recently president Bush implemented a policy where Mexican truckers will be able to accept any contracts within the US. That is they will live in Mexico, but travel north to work and then both pick-up & deliver loads anywhere inside the US. With the much lower cost of living in Mexico they will have enormous advantages in the market and will drive wages down. This policy is related to treaties that have been signed and the American people are mostly opposed to it. But the Americans don't matter to the people that rule over them.

111

bill, england,

23/04/2007 11:45:49

129. Carolyn 1

Read the rest of the poem, and learn.

112

Finnking,

Finland 23/04/2007 12:53:46

Bill & Carolyn1

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.

'Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.'

113

Finnking,

Finland 23/04/2007 13:16:32

132. Wally, Arizona

I too studied Engineering at a highly regarded university, albeit Electronics. However, I did complete 1 year on 'structures'. A fascinating subject. The 'Fire Engineering' labs were in the same building.

One thing that made me kick myself at the time (911 and a few weeks thereafter) was that I didn't press ALL the 'record' buttons and save the web pages. I remember the FOX commentary on the 2nd plane. The FOX man a the scene said, "There are no markings on the plane, no windows. It's not a passenger plane." (or to that effect). I also remember looking into the flight data a few days afterwards. There was a system of monitoring and recording the flight efficiencies of the various operators. I cannot remember the flight no. etc. (sorry!) but one of the flights was not recorded as having taken off that day.

Like 7/7 and Lockerbie, there are too many unanswered questions about 911. Intact passport but no black-box? Money transfers? Muslim Militants with lap dancers? No surface to air volley from Pentagon? The time it took USAF to react? THe buildings new owner? Power outs prior to 911? Video not being released?

and on and on it goes.........

Most folk in the world do not believe the official story.(Various polls) Certainly no one I know does.

Regarding the faith question: Yes, many in central Europe are doing the same. The churches (most) have always been on the side of the 'elites', in my opinion. Look at the position of the Bishops on the Chess Board, look at how they can move. The churches were CND in the 60's and 70's and this put them at odds with wealth. Also the 'elites' had learned a new herd control system by then: the Media and Education.

Faith without control and oppression? Good on you.

114

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 14:39:19

#137
Finnking,
Excellent copy and paste job; but you have not properly understood the poetry as Frost wrote it. Suffice to say that the title of the poem is Mending Wall.
Also, suffice to say that John Kennedy sent Frost twice, as a diplomat, to Russia to negotiate.
Read the poem again, and you will realize Frost is not building a spite fence, he and his neighbor are mending a stone wall between themselves, peacefully, which is why the poem is titled Mending Wall; and the line is stated twice- "good fences make good neighbors."

Walls are functional. When a big construction firm is renovating in a metropoliotan area, for example, walls are built around the job site to protect passerbys from the possible dangers of the construction. Walls protect children from runing into the street or falling into a swimming pool. Walls are also the boundaries of a house which is a home.

The wall being built by the American soldiers embraces the soldiers' mission: protecting and giving support to the innocent.

115

bill, england,

23/04/2007 14:45:17

137. Finnking, Finland

I am indebted to Carolyn for coming up with this poem, which aptly sets the argument for the Baghdad wall.

Robert Frost's "Mending Wall" is a poem about the barriers that people use to
separate themselves from the outside world and its problems. The two men meet each
spring to repair the wall that has been damaged by the winter ground swell. Frost shows
how isolating oneself leads to hostility toward others. Speaker one, who wants the wall,
hopes to convince speaker two that "There where it is we do not need the wall." Speaker
two repeats his father's saying, "Good fences make good neighbors." The opposing
views of human relations, like many relationships in our modern world, are never
resolved because of how the two men view one another's ideas. Speaker one sees
speaker two, at one point, as an "old stone savage armed." Speaker two simply closes
his mind to any argument in favor of neighborliness. Both men have been conditioned to
think as they do. Frost shows how the world as a whole views these ideas. Repairing the
wall is a metaphor for continued isolation, a condition that gave rise to World war I.

I plagiarised this from:
http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/robertfrost/mendingwal...

116

Finnking,

Finland 23/04/2007 15:08:37

139. Carolyn 1

Copy/Paste comment: I was inspired to look at the poem by Bill's suggestion to you that you read the entire poem.

As for your interpretation: It's good to be in a minority, I know the feeling well. You are definitely in the minority with your interpretation of this poem.

Also, what happened between JFK and Frost?

Download: South Park; 'Child Abduction Is Not Funny'.

"Bloody Mongolians!"

So, I assume you sadly wept when the Anti-Fascist Protective Rampart came down?

117

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 15:11:29

Bill,
You need to walk the fields of New England to understand the poem. I lived 14 miles from Frosts home; I bought my first car from the people he rented from, and I drove that car all over the hills of the farm learning to drive it.

It must be a new england thing- to stand in the middle of rolling fields of a farm and orchards, with the stone walls rambling up and down, through big open fields- to look around and see everything in one sweep of your eye, yet still see the tiny detail of a stone that has fallen from the wall, etc.
The wall is about diplomacy.

I'll leave god out of it for the sake of discussion, but frost did not leave god out of it, not then, not now.
I must run to an appt.
Have a great day!

118

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 15:13:21

Finnking:
It's nice to meet someone who knows these things!
I must run or I'll be late.
I have thought about the JFK/Frost.
I'll be driving along miles and miles of stone walls.

119

bill, england,

23/04/2007 15:55:09

144. thatscottishwoman

You are right of course. The metaphor is that of terrorists contained inside a wall, and democratic Iraq outside it; mission completed, end of occupation, troops home. I don't think so.

120

bill, england,

23/04/2007 16:09:56

142. Carolyn 1

If I ever get to New England I'll come by and take a look. I've been to New Brunswick and New Jersey so it can't be that far away!

Seems like Feldman doesn't like walls either:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-feldman/something-t...

121

Finnking,

Finland 23/04/2007 16:39:06

Bill

Did the same journo make similar critisisms of the Israeli wall?

122

Carolyn 1,

massachusetts, us 23/04/2007 17:57:07

Bill,
New Brunswick is the shoreline of Canada, and New Jersey is the shoreline of US south of New York City. New England is in between.
Most people think of New England as the group of small rural farm states of Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine, although Massachusetts and Connecticut are also New England.
Ms. Huffington has learned how to make money and be silly scatty at the same time. You don't hear too much of her opinion because of it; more for entertainment value.
btw, Vermont is in the process of impeaching Bush.
That should make your gray day blue.

123

Carolyn 1,

massachusetts, us 23/04/2007 18:13:21

Frost's mother was from Scotland. The UK published his first book. he was given many Pulitzers.
A Kennedy stayed with Marie Queen of Scots until she was executed, John Kennedy was the first (and only) Catholic President of the US. Kennedy was given a Pulitzer, which Jackie helped edit/write. I think its interesting how history interconnects. And if you look, you can see many similarities between Kennedy and Wallace. Both were determined and steadfast, both were great leaders, both were great orators to the masses.
Kennedy was determined to standdown Russia and he did. Wallace stood down England. Wallace went to Europe for diplomatic efforts, returned peacefully, and was executed by his enemies. The same is true for Kennedy.
Frost was sent as a diplomat to Russia. The second trip he was able to effect no change. I can hear it - Kennedy grilling Frost- did you say this, did you try this, what about this, did you do this...I imagine Kennedy had a mental checklist of every possibility and needed to know if Frost tried all of them. But they did stay friends.
Also to note, Jackie Kennedy wrote poetry and recognized Frost for everything that he accomplished

124

Carolyn 1,

massachusetts, us 23/04/2007 18:28:49

This is why I thought the poem is applicable to Iraq:
(I have different dreams for Iraq than you do.)

When the settlers arrived in America , the land was covered with trees. The trees were cut to build houses. Then the land was plowed up to farm. New England is covered with rocks, many of which have fossils imbedded in them. The rocks were turned up the soil and then stacked, which became the thousands of stone walls through-out New England.
Every spring, when a farmer tills his land, more rocks turn up, and more rocks are added to the stone walls. Rocks are part of the heritage.
Frost stood on one side of the fence, without the heritage of being a farmer and thought the fences were not necessary. The farmer on the other side of the fence never knew a life without stone fences, it was like that for his father and his father before him.
Frost, stood with this man, and each picked up the rocks from their side of the wall, and built a heritage togther, because Frost was insightful enough to know that 'good fences make good neighbors.'
He was being respectful of the centuries and the inherant identity of new england stone walls; and also the tradition of repairing the stone walls that is passed from father to son to grandson.

So, yes, I hope a wall can provide protection to familes until the (a) new government can find its place in a war torn country.

PS
TSW:
Bridges are necessary because something has separated two entities, such as a river, or a gully, and so a bridge becomes necessary.
Not unlike a wall separates but has a door. Your house has walls and a door, but it doesn't have need a bridge.

Off to MBL office, which has a stone foundation!

125

bill, england,

23/04/2007 18:32:06

149. Carolyn 1, massachusetts, us

"btw, Vermont is in the process of impeaching Bush.
That should make your gray day blue."

The sun came out when I read that!

btw, I'm not a fan of the Kennedy family.

126

bill, england,

23/04/2007 20:23:53

148. Finnking, Finland

I doubt it.

127

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 21:22:48

Trolls live under bridges.
Trolls live with the purpose to intimidate who ever wants to cross the bridge.

Last Thursday, the Scotsman sent a letter with an apology that it has taken them so long to respond; I just received it an hour ago. Should I wait for Bikewoman to apologize or should I give the files to the Scotsman?

Run rabbit, run?

128

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 21:28:01

#153
Frost is a brilliant humanitarian. This comment you made explains why Frost had 4 Pulitzers, and you have none, why Frost was a diplomat and you are not.

129

57Nomad,

california 23/04/2007 21:43:28

#149 Carolyn 1

In her post #139 Carolyn 1 says:

"btw, Vermont is in the process of impeaching Bush.
That should make your gray day blue."

Vermont is in the process doing no such thing. What Vermont is in the process of doing is wasting their taxpayers money by juvenile grandstanding.

States have no power whatsoever to impeach, outpeach, can peach, fresh peach pie, or any thing having to do with the President and any kind of "peach." This is a power reserved for the U. S. House of Representatives, the states have zip to say about it.

130

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 21:50:14

Nomad,
Vermont is in the process of impeaching him. Then they plan to take it to the federal level.
A lot of noise, that won't go anywhere except to the media who wants to hear it.

131

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 21:50:58

Precisely.
Plus the one where you threatned to arrest me.

132

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 21:52:42

Oh by the way,
The paper has my work references and my family references, and my e-mail accounts, so they know for a fact that I have not trolled any of you.

133

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 21:56:11

The complaint was filed concerning Thatscottishwoman, Alec and Bikewoman, because you threatened me personally, my job, my security, my health, my employers and my freedom.

134

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23/04/2007 22:05:50
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135

,

23/04/2007 22:10:02
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136

,

23/04/2007 22:16:10
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137

,

23/04/2007 22:16:29
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138

,

23/04/2007 22:38:32
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139

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 22:46:52

#166, #169
That would be TSW (#79)advice to the rabbits when I said I was going to garden.

140

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 22:54:09

Yes Djookers
I do fear for my mental health.
And no, you were never reported by me.
This report went to the Scotsman two or three weeks ago. I just received a copy of their response today.
I am concerned because I spent a year, under the gift of a grant, working on a project, into which I put my heart and my soul, and it is now being considered for an award. Bikewoman threatened me and she threatened the work. My reputation is at risk, my literary work is at risk because of one person who thinks I trolled, and I never did.
Yes, it is serious, and her denial does nothing solve the damage.
She only has to tap out, but she can't for some reason.

141

Bikewoman,

23/04/2007 22:56:46

#171 Carolyn

Yes - Thatscottishwoman has already explained this more coherently just above. But thanks for the effort.

142

Bikewoman,

23/04/2007 22:59:21

#172

And yet Carolyn, when asked to provide the evidence that I called you a troll (dozens of times!) or evidence of these any threats to everything from your award now to your life, you fail to bring a single post.

I tire of asking for the evidence. I am beginning to suspect that there is none. Care to prove me wrong?

143

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 23:03:16

#168
This is a typical ranting example of being unable to apologize.

144

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 23:03:33

The Scotsman has it.

145

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 23:04:45

It is not about being called a troll. Refer to #163 before its deleted.

146

Bikewoman,

23/04/2007 23:11:53

#177 carolyn

"It is not about being called a troll. Refer to #163 before its deleted."

Again, bring me the evidence. There is none, and repeating your libel is not going to help. Oh, by the way, I have screenshots of everything you have said so deleting your libelous statements is not going to help you.

147

,

23/04/2007 23:14:11
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148

,

23/04/2007 23:14:25
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149

,

23/04/2007 23:18:53
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150

,

23/04/2007 23:24:21
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151

Wally,

Arizona 23/04/2007 23:25:51

gosh Bikewoman - I feel left out. You and Alec & ScottishWoman have formal complaints against you for threatening someone's job, security health freedom, and I don't. I'm normally the one absorbing the most insults at least on this forum. how come I wasn't included!?

I'm sure those walls in New England are nice. I also read how in America we have 'neighborhood block watch' programs and I guess the implication is that they should do that in Baghdad. I found it amusing because in Baghdad they have neighborhood block watch programs too. But over there the people on the block watch carry AK-47's and have concrete barriers arranged strategically.

a little bit of a nut to think that neighborhood block watches in America and stone walls in rural New England relate to Baghdad.

There's some heavy-duty human failure going on in America. Here's a link.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticl...

We Americans don't revel in it. We cry over it. Here's another link.

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=50810

We support our troops. That's why we want to bring them home. But we can't. Every day more of them die. and for some of our people the only way to deal with it is insanity. For some it is denial. For some it is to embrace evil. For some it is escapism. For some it is alcohol or drugs.

I know a fellow who goes on patrols in Baghdad. He says he & his buddies come home from patrols and turn on the basketball games. They can't stand politics or news. Their minds are under too much pressure to afford that luxury.

It is on display now for the world to see that in the greatest of the nations the people are unable to rule their affairs, that instead an evil

152

Djookers,

23/04/2007 23:29:58

#182 Jura

Nice try, but you are so predictable. I knew you pull this stunt and said as much in my post at 180.

Wnt another prediction, you will delete that one next, because it shoes you up

153

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23/04/2007 23:35:50
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154

Wally,

Arizona 23/04/2007 23:39:00

King Nimrod in 158:

Vermont is at least passing a resolution asking that Bush be impeached. In about half the states similar resolutions have been introduced, but only in Vermont is it passed, at least that is how I understand it. And of course you're correct that only the US House of Representatives can actually impeach. and then after that occurs only the US Senate can remove him before January of 2009.

But isn't it sad King Nimrod that we have a president who is liked by only one third of our people? and isn't it sadder that both parties are strongly disliked. and that no other or third party can get many votes (according to the voting machines) even though the major two parties are so disliked?

Isn't it sad that polls show 65-75% of the Americans want the government to bring the troops home and yet they can't even vote on a bill instructing the president to do just that? Some people arrogantly say that it is none of congress' business if the president wages war. But this is not true. All funding must be approved by Congress. If Congress says 'no' to the war, then the president by law must comply. and the Congress doesn't even try to represent the people. Shouldn't we all be sad about that if we value the idea that 'we the people' should rule in this country. Who should be sovereign in this countr? The people or some clique of corporations and banks associated with Bush? if you're on the side of the people in that question, then you would be disappointed that Congress won't represent the will of the Americans.

if you're a traitor to the Americans, then you'll support the war and gloat over how nothing's being done to bring the troops home.

155

Bikewoman,

23/04/2007 23:44:37

186. Wally

This wall isn't going to fix the mess they have made. We have no one to send to Iraq now - they are reeassigning air force mechanics to Army ground troops. Next they will be sending the boyscouts.

156

Jura Clarke,

23/04/2007 23:45:16

Djookers The real Troll #184

It’s a shame you are a childish little Troll, if you were a clever Troll you could have came up with a epimenides paradox rather than your silly attempt of a no win situation.

157

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2007 23:45:21

Well, it's been two hours. All I wanted was an apology from Bikewoman.
I'll review the information with my lawyer tomorrow and send what he advises I send.
All of this would be a trifling ant hill and mean nothing to me except I accidently posted my real name and you know where I live; Furthermore, you just posted it again from your private file.
You did it as a show of intimidation and force.
You win.
I'm scared and I'm the one with everything to lose.

158

Jura Clarke,

23/04/2007 23:48:08

Good night all, I'm sure Djookers the Troll is full by now.

159

Bikewoman,

23/04/2007 23:53:29

#189 Carolyn

Tsk tsk - such a martyr complex. I never threatened you in any way and you know where the evidence is? In your complete inability to come forward with any evidence. I do see you threatening me multiple times - threatening to go to the Scotsman, threatening to have your boss send a letter to the Scotsman, and now threatening me with a lawyer. I do have your many libelous statements as screenshots - perhaps your lawyer can use those? Let's hope he is at least as patient as I have been in waiting for you to produce evidence.

You should be scared. You are the only one who has threatened and the only one who has committed libel. You are making a fool of yourself.

160

Wally,

Arizona 24/04/2007 00:01:16

Carolyn 1:

nobody cares about your real name which you posted. nobody's threatened you. get a grip. the brain damage is showing. has the doctor been giving you something? Ritalin, Paxcil, prozac, ???

long-term use of that stuff causes brain damage.

161

Djookers,

24/04/2007 00:06:00

#192 Wally

well said Wally

162

,

24/04/2007 00:13:01
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163

Bikewoman,

24/04/2007 00:17:22

#194 Djookers

Not to mention the fact that he thinks that producing an example of failed logic would prove your point.... Clearly he doesn't understand the meaning of the word paradox.

164

Carolyn 1,

24/04/2007 00:20:47

I posted this Wally, because I didn't like the things Nomad said in an earlier post.
I respect you.
No I don't take medicine except for a chronic eye infection .
If you thought I insulted you in some way Wally, I apologize.

14. Carolyn 1 / 1:22pm 22 Apr 2007
Nomad,
You're going to put Wally in the hospital. The doctors are going to mess with his mind and put him on meds.
Then we'll lose Wally.


I'm off to bed as I have an early day

165

Carolyn 1,

24/04/2007 00:22:02

The above post #196 was for Wally.

166

Djookers,

Jura Clarke, nomad in disguise 24/04/2007 00:23:16

#195 Bikewoman

It is the paradox, it complains of others deleting posts and turns out to the worst offender itself.

167

Bikewoman,

24/04/2007 01:04:01

#198 Djookers

"It is the paradox, it complains of others deleting posts and turns out to the worst offender itself."

Indeed. Not a very good troll, but good company for Carolyn. Neither one is capable of logical thought.


 

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