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Bradford and Bingley 'to be nationalised' as rescue bid stalls



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Published Date: 28 September 2008
THE troubled Bradford & Bingley (B&B) bank is set to be nationalised with an official announcement expected later today, it was reported last night.
Officials from the Treasury and the Financial Services Authority (FSA) were in talks overnight to thrash out final details of the plan that will end the banks cherished independence.

The BBC reported that once the deal has been agreed, the Treasury will almost instantaneously sell B&B to a bank, or a number of banks.

Depositors and savers' money should be safe but B&B's shareholders and holders of its debt may lose out, the report said.

B&B's £50bn of loans – including £41bn of residential mortgages – will not be sold and will be nationalised on a long term basis. It is possible that the mortgages will be given to the nationalised Northern Rock to manage.

The report added that the Treasury and the FSA decided they had to act to nationalise B&B because the bank was perilously close to seeing a demand from investors for the return of billions of pounds – which it would have been unable to find.

One source involved in the negotiations said: "There were several options being discussed. The banks were talking. But what appears to have happened is that there is no way that they were going to get a private sale by the time the markets opened on Monday morning, but there was enough interest to keep talking."

The bank experienced significant withdrawals of cash from its branches and online bank yesterday amid customer concerns about its situation.

However, there were no significant queues, except for at four branches before doors opened, because hundreds of B&B staff gave up their day off to man the tills.

B&B's share price has plummeted in recent weeks and it has announced plans to cut 370 jobs due to the downturn in the mortgage market. The nationalisation underlines the scale of the global banking crisis.

The bank will be nationalised using special legislation the Treasury put through when it took Northern Rock into public ownership earlier this year.

The Treasury and FSA will then negotiate with banks interested in buying parts of B&B. Possible buyers included Santander of Spain, HSBC and Barclays. Santander, which already owns Abbey and Alliance & Leicester, has been looking at B&B for some time.

There was no immediate comment from the Treasury last night, other than: "The discussions are still going on. A further statement is expected before markets open on Monday."

The nationalisation and break up of B&B is a significant moment in the history of British banking as it will mean that every building society that floated on the stock market in the wave of demutualisations in the past two decades will either have collapsed or been sold to a conventional bank.

B&B, the eighth largest mortgage lender, now becomes the latest banking institution to become a victim of the global financial crisis and the deteriorating state of the housing market.

Its shares fell 6% to an all-time low of 20p as it became clear that no rival bank was prepared to mount a rescue bid.

Since the start of the year, B&B shares have fallen 90%.

However, the British Banking Association reassured the 2.5 million customers who have £22bn deposited with B&B. "Customers have no need to worry about any deposits in any British bank," a spokesman said. "The Financial Services Compensation Scheme covers all savings up to £35,000, which covers 96% of all banking customers."

Liberal Democrat shadow chancellor Vince Cable said: "Bradford & Bingley's problems are a predictable consequence of the collapsing housing bubble built on a toxic mix of buy-to-let speculation and self-certified mortgages.

"The best option would be for Bradford & Bingley to be acquired by another private bank, but if the worst comes to the worst and the takeover by Northern Rock goes ahead, then the Government must learn from its previous mistakes and avoid the months of dithering that caused serious damage last time."

Brown, who was in Washington for a meeting with US President George Bush, said the best way of dealing with the British aspect of the global financial crisis was to increase liquidity.

"The American plan is designed for a large number of banks and institutions across America," Brown said. "We have a smaller banking system. We have put cash into the system. That, in Britain, is the better way of dealing with it."

• A wealthy financier said to be overwhelmed by the current global banking crisis died after throwing himself in front of a morning commuter train, it emerged last night.

Married father-of-one Kirk Stephenson, 47, chief operating officer at private equity firm Olivant, died just after 9am on Thursday morning near Taplow station in Buckinghamshire. A source said: "I imagine he will probably have lost a lot of cash recently as a result of the credit crunch. It appears the pressure became too much to bear."


The full article contains 847 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 September 2008 12:47 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Credit Crunch
 
1

Highland Property Bubble,

Inverness 28/09/2008 00:11:00
Since when did the government have permission to waste vast sums of taxpayers' money propping up bankrupt publicly listed companies?
2

Guga II,

Rockall 28/09/2008 00:31:46
Strange, isn't it? Maggie Broon props up two English banks, i.e. Northern Rock, and now Bradford and Bingley, with public funds, but quickly tries to sell the Bank of Scotland down the river, to an English company. No word of propping them up with public money.

Then again, Maggie Broon seems to expend a lot of effort in trying to sell Scotland and the Scottish people down the river.
3

Charles Linskaill,

Lost in Space for 1week, so far! 28/09/2008 00:44:23


Guga II ~2,

Do You Not Learn Anything,?

What Has Charles, told you all week!,???


Come-on now, it ain't that difficult!

D'oh!


Charles has said!!!,....

"THE SCOT'S ARE THE 'UNDERDOGS"

Always have been!, an Always WILL-BE!! FULL STOP!!

This is the 'WHY' you see things like this happening!

In Future Please, Listen to what Charles says,....

'The Man That Speaks the Truth, and ONLY the Truth!!
4

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:53:52
That'll be English nationalised. What a "union" of equals we exist in. So blatant. So unionist.
5

gggrumpy,

28/09/2008 02:05:42
What is it with people?
This Lloyds HBOS entity looks very dodgy.
I spoke to a respectable business man tonight who said Lloyds would never fail, well who thought the Bank Of Scotland would fail?
6

Andrew D,

bne 28/09/2008 04:22:16
This *can't* be true.

If they do this just after selling HBoS down the river and sandwiching that between another English bank takeover... surely no one would believe it is paranoia to think something is very suspect here.
7

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 06:36:55
2

Spot on Guga saved me the bother of posting exactly that.
The Royal bank better watch its back Broon is sharpening his blade.
8

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 06:44:34
8

Since when has new Labour ever dealt in subtelty?
Their illegal activities personal greed and corruption are no longer hidden from public sight they have no fear of recrimination and for some reason known only to God they hang on to their core vote.
Their faces are so deep in the national trough they appear completly oblivious to whats rippling out from around them.
Yet they have made no secret of their desire to keep Scotland within the union by ALL means at their disposal and that means legal or otherwise.
9

Alec M,

Falkirk 28/09/2008 07:30:29
#10 - In the same way that £25 is referred to as a 'pony', I hear that in Glasgow £500,000 is now known as a 'marshall'.
10

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 07:54:55
11

Lol.
11

whitegold,

Shire 28/09/2008 07:56:30
Not surprising. What bank wanted to take on its toxic loans? More taxpayers money lost on this deal. Of course the ultimate bill to the taxpayer won't be the entire amount, but a percentage of this.

But its still billions thrown away - and this assumes other banks don't fall as well. Most banks have liabilities far in excess of their assets - so don't think this is necessarily the end of the bad news.

Quote of the day from 'Market Oracle' earlier this month:
"The battered and bruised British chancellor who repeatedly followed his bosses party line, to fudge the facts, and spin the story of Britain being the strongest economy in the west, best placed to whether the credit storm. When in reality Britain was expected and is expected to be hit the hardest of ALL the western economies as a consquences of the size of the UK financial sector and the lack of substance to Britain's manufacturing base."

Neither is this present turmoil going to end with banks. In the next few years expect unemployment to explode.
12

danielrober,

28/09/2008 08:28:10
There needs to come a point where the finance companies need to protect themselves. Possibly this protection must be from some of their own managers and directors. Enron did not have the protection, but some of those involved breaking that great company went to prison. A great American engineering and power company was lost, over irregularities. Some of those guys went to prison.

The UK/EU financial sector probably needs some similar rules, where the managers and directors engaging in irregularities - with billions, go to jail.

I'm sure this bail out will be well run, now that Northern Rock has provided a practice opportunity, but it should not have happened in the first place.

This is not the fault of any government, this is just poor management.
13

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 28/09/2008 08:38:01
Welcome to the Banana Monarchy! I think even Mugabe runs a better economy than this lot. Fiddling while Britain burns, or what. Share price go up and they go down. Fund Managers evidently forgot this warning.

Bad luck if your pension funds are invested in these dodgy deals.
14

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:39:23
14

"There needs to come a point where the finance companies need to protect themselves."

You mean Scottish financial companies from the UK government?
15

Tayside Hibby,

Tayside 28/09/2008 08:45:05
Surely now the people of this country must see we are being sold down the river once again with this deal, then again. The good people of Glenrothes must let Brown know once and for all we will not accept this one rule for Scots one rule for English companies nonsense any longer. We need, and must have total freedom of the running of our country and institutions.
16

Padraig,

28/09/2008 09:02:39
Sorry Tayside (17) - you are wrong.

When Gordon got his hands on the Treasury, he introduced the much vaunted Bank of England control of inflation, which it has managed carefully.

At the same time, he transferred the BoE's responsibility to supervise the banking system to a new body, the Financial Services Authority, which has signally failed to control the banks. It used to be that the BoE collected monthly statistics from each bank which let it see any deviation from prudent management. This seems either to have been dropped or just neglected and is responsible for the banking system now appearing to be run by gamblers on other people's money. The resulting bubble eventually had to burst as we are now seeing.

Of course, paying bank directors huge bonuses based on high profits without penalising them for any losses (and appointing a supermarket manager to run HBOS)has not helped here - but without the BoE supervision, that was not unpredictable.
17

Richardinho,

28/09/2008 09:18:15
All the government interventions that we are seeing on both sides of the Atlantic are being justified on the grounds; "if we don't do this, it will result in financial disaster".

Well, that may be so, but nevertheless it does feel as it is just a continuation of exactly the same mistake that has been made in last 20 years leading up to this; Banks being given free reign without any accountability. If after the end of this period when the economy is bankrupt, but the bankers are all rich, the government simply steps in and bails them out, what message is this sending?
18

whitegold,

Shire 28/09/2008 09:46:07
#18 wrote:
"At the same time, he transferred the BoE's responsibility to supervise the banking system to a new body, the Financial Services Authority, which has signally failed to control the banks. It used to be that the BoE collected monthly statistics from each bank which let it see any deviation from prudent management. This seems either to have been dropped or just neglected and is responsible for the banking system now appearing to be run by gamblers on other people's money. "

True. The regulation wasn't properly in place after Brown altered it. I think this was DELIBERATE.

In 1997, Brown in his budget speech said:
“I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future”. He went on to say that he did not want a return to ”instability, speculation and negative equity” of the 1980’s and 1990’s.

So Brown knew the risk and gave an empty promise which quite clearly he had no intention of keeping. In 2002 he was being warned from various directions about massive rises in debt, and yet chose to ignore these warnings. These warnings kept on coming.

So
1) Brown knows about the dangers of a debt and rising house prices.
2) Despite knowing this and making empty promises he presides over such a debt bubble despite repeated warnings.
3) Convieniently, after Brown's meddling, the regulation isn't in place to stop what amounts to moral fraud.


So why did Brown do this? Because it artificially stoked the economy and so prolonged NuLabs life, and enhanced his own reputation. Yet in 1997 we see he KNEW what the effects were going to be.

Poltics above everything else you see - even if long term we are screwed.

In the US the debt bubble is a natural consequence of US central bank flooding its economy with cheap credit. This is a direct consequence of the trillions needed to finance the Iraq war. (Claimed by Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.)



19

,

28/09/2008 09:48:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

Publius,

Girvan 28/09/2008 09:51:18
#20 sm753

Right on. Northern Rock (English)shareholders and debt holders get nothing. B & B (English)shareholders and debt holders get nothing. HBOS (Scottish) shareholders get shares in successful English bank.
The merger between LloydsTSB and HBOS may yet ruin LloydsTSB.
21

,

28/09/2008 09:52:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

donald,

glasgow 28/09/2008 09:55:08
They nationalised the Scottish Trustee Savings Bank, which came back as a privatised English bank. Get Labour Out!
23

donald,

glasgow 28/09/2008 09:55:19
They nationalised the Scottish Trustee Savings Bank, which came back as a privatised English bank. Get Labour Out!
24

Slippylizard,

Sunny Rock 28/09/2008 09:58:06
I have to say the FSA are useless and have been for years. They wander around making the odd "naughty boy" comment about an IFA or two but for years the biggest offenders have been the big banks who have basically done exactly as they have wished. Those are the same big banks that exist now. Oh they make the odd cosmetic adjustment telling us about the banking code etc but in reality they do as they wish and the FSA does nothing, hence part of the reason we are where we are. I feel sorry for all those about to lose their jobs
25

Publius,

Girvan 28/09/2008 09:58:14
#17 Padraig
#20 whitegold

You're right to note the failure of the Financial Services Authority. FSA has relied on regulation, but abandoned supervision. Clever people can always find a way round rules and regulations. (So can not so clever people. Remember Wendy Alexander and the rule about disclosing donors who give more than £1k.) Supervision means watching what is going on and intervening before banks go bust, not afterwards.
Gordon Brown's division of powers between the Bank of England, the FSA and the Treasury was very silly because it made effective supervision of the banks almost impossible.
26

Publius,

Girvan 28/09/2008 09:59:42
#26 Slippylizard

Our posts overlapped! You are 100 per cent right!
27

Publius,

London 28/09/2008 10:03:26
#28 sm753

The relevance of the Scottish/English thing lies in the nationalist posts made in the middle of the night. My 22 was in support of your 19.

The post numbers are slipping away, perhaps because the moderator has pulled some without letting on.
28

Edwardg,

28/09/2008 11:12:31
*2 Guga, if you actually read up about the situation with B&B instead of simply reading the headline, you would see that the government has been attempting to find a buyer. They have been involved in negotiations with HSBC, Barclays and Banco Santander of Spain (the most likely buyer). The problem is that nobody wants to buy it! This leaves the government with no choice but to nationalise or face a repeat of the Northern Rock saga.

As things stand, a deal with Santander will probably be announced on Monday, similar to that between Lloyds and HBOS. It will involve a wavering of competition regulation and the government offering guarantees on some on B&Bs bad debt.

I wish some people on her would stop the instinctive "selling Scotland down the river" or "one thing for us and another for them" rants. They are childish and misinformed.
29

Linda,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 12:05:34
No banking crisis in Norway or rest of Scandanavia.

If you ever doubted where Labour loyalities lie read Iain MacWhirter in to-days Sunday Herald.

Labour’s glee at the fall of HBOS risks backfiring
Iain Macwhirter on political capital

SCOTTISH LABOURITES at their conference in Manchester last week were practically punching the air at the collapse of HBOS. They think the crisis vindicates their Unionism and reveals Alex Salmond as a tartan fantasist living in an economic Brigadoon. Mind you, some Scots might prefer Brigadoon to Labourland.
30

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 28/09/2008 12:15:14
Must get all my cash out of the bank first thing tomorrow, if they will let me! Wifey too, good job we have separate accounts with different banks...
31

Scunner,

Bonnie Scotland 28/09/2008 12:20:51
The joys of capitalism.....Which bank will be next??

The quicker we have an Independent Scotland the better.
32

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 13:04:19
Where are all the unionists on this thread? Funny, i seem to remember the vitriol directed at Samond for even mentioning the fact the HBOS could be saved.

Wholesale nationalisation by Darling seems to be fine though,
33

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 13:05:46
Incidentally does anyone know how much B and B have in the Scottish market? Will the Scots taxpayer be expected to bail out an overwhelmingly English institution, what a disgrace!
34

Dijit,

Glasgow 28/09/2008 13:07:47
Urgent need for a fast tracked investigation into both B&B and HBOS. This could be set up by the Stock Exchange, FSA, Monopolies commission, Westminster or in the case of HBOS, Holyrood.

Top management at both institutions assured us as to their solvency and viability only 48 working hours before major rescue plans kicking in.
This is a clear breach of market rules and prosecutions should result to set a clear example and remind others.

Remember shareholders and pension funds are being conned by these misleading statements. These statements clearly misled & manipulated markets.

If it only takes a matter of days to assess, evaluate, break up and sell on a bank, the investigation won't need to take more than a day or two.
35

bumpkin,

28/09/2008 13:09:27
i dont own a home, have never been able to afford it, why should my taxes be used to bail out all the fools who have been partying for the last 15 yrs?
no bailout for overpaid bankers.
by the way ,i have vacancies for potato pickers.
36

Fairfax,

28/09/2008 13:11:52
Linda (32): "No banking crisis in Norway or rest of Scandanavia."

Possibly because they had their banking crisis early, in the early 1990s. Their problems then make interesting parallels to the credit crunch now. If you google "Scandinavian banking crisis", you'll find many interesting links.

Iceland, a detached part of Scandinavia as it were, is very much suffering from the banking crisis, of course.
37

Calum10,

28/09/2008 13:13:01
That's three banks gone to the wall under Gordon Brown. Northern Rock, HBOS and Bradford and Bingley.

Lets put this into comparison.

There is no banking crisis in the EU.

No banking crisis in the rest of Western Europe.

No banking crisis in Eastern Europe.

No banking crisis in Asia, Africa, South America, Central America, Canada or Australasia.

The next bank to fall in the UK? The smart money seems to be on Lloyds-TSB. Their share price has dropped dramatically over the past few days.


38

Fairfax,

28/09/2008 13:17:13
Nevsky (35): "Funny, i seem to remember the vitriol directed at Samond for even mentioning the fact the HBOS could be saved."

There was certainly skepticism that HBOS could pull through unaided -- I still find it difficult to see how it could. As I've written before, I believe Lloyds TSB is taking an extremely big risk in attempting to subsume HBOS.

"Wholesale nationalisation by Darling seems to be fine though"

B&B is a much smaller operation than HBOS. Would you have preferred nationalisation for HBOS?
39

Fairfax,

28/09/2008 13:29:44
Calum (10): "That's three banks gone to the wall under Gordon Brown. Northern Rock, HBOS and Bradford and Bingley."

You've forgotten Alliance and Leicester, which was taken over by Santander earlier this year. All of the former building societies have now succumbed, since all had expanded using the wholesale credit market.

"There is no banking crisis in the EU."

The EU has yet to see such major failures, and will likely continue to be less vulnerable, but it's far from plain sailing; see for example

http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2008/09/danish-banking-crisis-worst-in-europe.html
40

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000 miles from Earth's core 28/09/2008 13:32:54
All thanks to our special relationship with America.I think there will be more of these failures to come,but this is just history repeating.
1913 America forms the Federal Reserve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act_of_1913
One of its jobs was .....
"For example, a member bank (private bank) is not permitted to give out too many loans to people who cannot pay them back. This is because too many defaults on loans will lead to a bank run"
Of course ,being run by bankers,who did not enforce regulation, after 20 years it brought about the Great Depression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
Which, after Roosevelt survived an attemptted military/corporate coup,backed by the same corporations involved today(and allegedly Prescott Bush)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
He managed to push through his New Deal and reform of business and financial practices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_new_deal
Now in the 1980's we see massive deregulation of the financial markets thanks to Reaganomics and Thatcherism and suprise ,suprise 20 years later we face financial ruin again.
Its called Free market capitalism this is how it works
1.Availability of credit allows money to flow between savers and borrowers.
2.Resources and funds are allocated to various projects or investments during a boom phase.
3.Eventually borrowing becomes excessive and leads to malinvestment,
4.At this stage, adherence to free market theory would allow for an efficient cleansing period and a healthy recovery period. How? Irresponsible and unprofitable businesses fail. Bad debts get liquidated. Excess resources go on sale, flow into more stable ventures and pool together with more profitable resources controlled by healthy corporations or entities
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article6497.html

If you do not like it change your economic philosophy.Your classic Boom and Bust economy and it looks like we found irresponsible and unprofitable businesses.i.e. the
41

Cuthulan,

appeox.12,000 miles from Earth's core 28/09/2008 13:35:08
cont./
If you do not like it change your economic philosophy.Your classic Boom and Bust economy and it looks like we found irresponsible and unprofitable businesses.i.e. the banks.So bankers should stop blubbing and asking for taxpayer bailouts.
Time to open an E-GOLD account
http://www.e-gold.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold
42

,

28/09/2008 13:37:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

Active Sassenach,

28/09/2008 13:44:33
#32, Linda, Edinburgh. I don't think anyone welcomes the Lloyds/HBOS deal because they hold Alex Salmond responsible for the HBOS collapse. Scotland does not have its own currency so any economic activity there impacts on the value of Sterling. Scotland has no less interest than any other country in restoring stability to the financial system.

Heard the one about the B and B? What did it do before it collapsed? It demutualised in the face of a vote by its members for it to stay mutual. The three-year members prior to demutualisation now have a claim for demutualisation mis-selling against the FSA and they should make it immediately. It floated at £2.48 per share on 4 December 2000.

Don't you just love it when dreams get the sack? I would not be so heartless as to rejoice at the misfortune of people losing their jobs but at B and B I will make an exception. We had the farce earlier this year when Guy Jubb from Standard Life Investments had to go to the AGM himself and explain to the Chairman what the difference was between an injection of venture capital and a rights isssue.
44

Fairfax,

28/09/2008 14:36:46
sm753 (41): "arch-buffoon "suchaparcelofrogues" (formerly known as "Jackie Priest") was outed as being the same person as "Lara Crofter"."

He/she was more coherent as Lara than Jackie/suchaparcelofrogues. Unless, of course, I'm just being positive towards the name because of its associated image . . .
45

Cuthulan,

approx.12,000 miles from Earth's core 28/09/2008 14:52:33
Here's how B&B fell and explains how actually most US/UK banks ARE in REAL terms BANKRUPT because of incompitance and pure GREED. Lending out 30 TIMES thier Asset worth because debt made BANKS money!! 4 Times is the accepted max for fractional reserve banking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_Reserve_Banking
Bradford and Bingley Nationalised after another UK Bank wiped out by Tulip Backed Securities
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article6498.html
The banks traded in complex derivatives products between themselves, in what is termed as the over the counter market. The exposure to the Securitized debt packages was further exaggerated by the use of leverage of in many cases more than 30X the banks assets against valuations based on complex models that inflated the packages values during the boom times which allowed huge profits and bonuses to be banked (Fraud?). However the critical point is in the final link in a long chain of sliced and diced debt packages was the US housing market
Now many banks are left with assets that are worth less than 50% of their booked value. Now that does not mean a 50% loss for the banks on investments, remember the greedy banks deployed LEVERAGE of as much as 30 times of assets, so capital of say £100 million is controlling risk of as much as £3,000 million. Therefore a 50% loss results in a loss of value of £1,500 million., that's 15 times the capital. Hence the banks have been reluctant to price their debt packages at the market price as that would mean the bank is effectively bankrupt with losses far greater than the banks capital base. So the market remains frozen until all of the illiquid mortgage backed debt has been transferred to the tax payers in exchange for liquid cash, hence prompting the US Mother of All bailouts plan.
No Taxpayer bailout!Definately time for an E-GOLD account!!
http://www.e-gold.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold
46

Alan B,

28/09/2008 15:41:36
Brown has made a complete and utter failure of running the economy. The basics of running a good economy are to ensure it is in robust shapre for any global downturn. Browns ridulous short termism will cost us all dearly.

- massive house price inflation (which is part of problem for the current banking crisis)
-massive consumer debt linked to house price inflation.
-massive government deficits as Brown spend far more than was coming in, in tax revenues during decent economic conditions. Meaning we are in no shape to deal with a downturn.
- the failure of his own regulatory system that is helping bringing banks crashing down.
47

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 15:59:12
41 Fairfax#

Personally i would have been in favour of the extended credit-line offered to HBOS to see it through. Nationalisation was never mentioned by Salmond as far as i am aware but extending credit was although it did not stop the howls of derision.
Interesting that RBS is set to reap the benefits of the US's actions, as HBOS secured a lot of it's monet there perhaps the same would have been true for them.

48

Alan B,

28/09/2008 16:04:22
#Nevsky

The impression I get from Salmond is that he wanted Brown to take action on short selling. (Brown ignore his advice until after the bank collapsed and then brought in a temporary ban till Jan).

If action had been taken over short selling the problems with HBOS would not have been brought to a head. The head of HBOS said as much himself.

By having time to come up with a solution for HBOS by stopping the short selling then alternatives could be investigated. Brown ineptitude has meant little time for discussing the problems and alternatively has been allowed.

There is also the big question of why Brown brought the financial rescue package to the market the day after the hbos failure and not before.
49

WL,

livingston 28/09/2008 16:27:43
The Westminster government can save cost by merging Bradford & Bingley with Northern Rock. But no golden handshakes for the failed managers.
50

Fairfax,

28/09/2008 17:24:30
Alan B (52): "If action had been taken over short selling the problems with HBOS would not have been brought to a head. The head of HBOS said as much himself."

That might have been true, but I still doubt it. Further, Hornby has a strong incentive to believe his own exposition here. Short-selling makes the demise more rapid, but it's a symptom, not a cause, and there have been reports of problems throughout the year, together with a linearly decreasing shareprice for HBOS. Here's a Scotsman article I bookmarked back in June:

http://news.scotsman.com/scotlandseconomy/39Don39t-panic39-plea-from-worried.4143582.jp


51

Fairfax,

28/09/2008 18:08:43
Nevsky (51): "Personally i would have been in favour of the extended credit-line offered to HBOS to see it through."

I agree to some extent. However, whilst extending credit-lines to banks in emergencies is often good, it is equivalent to nationalization beyond a certain point -- and without the state control of nationalization. I suspect HBOS had reached that point. I also suspect that public knowledge of the credit-line would have further spurred collapse, again leading to nationalization.

"Interesting that RBS is set to reap the benefits of the US's actions, as HBOS secured a lot of it's monet there perhaps the same would have been true for them"

HBOS has not yet disappeared, so any benefits from the US plan will still help them. I don't know how much of their lending was US-linked, so cannot comment on the full significance to their funding.
52

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 18:13:53
He is a communications manager and says it's good news for HBOS..what a surprise SM753..hardly the same standing as the heavyweights that have all come out against this but then clinging to any unionist straw is what it is about these days.

What about the Labour party's glee at the sinking of HBOS as reported in the Herald..glee, happiness and joy that a banking institution had gone in Scotland in the hope of making political gain..Labour are a disgrace, low life disgrace and so are you for supporting a party such as that!
53

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 18:20:58
56 Fairfax#

What do you think about the standing of HBOS followig a more stable US market? Surely what the US is doing is to some extent offering a line of credit to HBOS also?

Will be interesting to see how their shares perform over the next week or so. I believe this might have been a hasty move, i fully understand the caution but this has possibly been completely the wrong decision for everyone involved and perhaps what was needed was a steady nerve.

HBOS it seems to me depend more than most on a stable US market and if that recovers quickly so will HBOS. What then for the deal?
54

Alan B,

28/09/2008 18:27:52
#Fairfax

"Short-selling makes the demise more rapid"

That is what I meant. Without the rapid decline that short selling brought to HBOS other ways out the problem could have been investigated.

I am not suggesting there was not underlying issues. There were.
55

Alan B,

28/09/2008 18:30:32
#sm753

Cannot see how it will be good for customers in the future. What we will have is one bank with about 30% of the mortgage market. Less competition means less value for customers.

So other than the fact the other option was bankruptcy for HBOS is surely cannot be good news.
56

Alan B,

28/09/2008 18:35:38
#sm753

It is my understanding the minutes of the economic advisory panel are made available. So the outcomes will be made publically available.

There is obviously a balance to be made between openness and transparancy and having a frank and open disussion and advise.

My own option is labour would just want to try to make political issues out of the fact different people on the panel will have different slants and options. We have seen that already by labour trying to immaturely show that certain people on the panel may have different slants from Salmond.

That is however what we want. There is no point in this panel being a yes body for the government but one that can give the government differnt views and opinions.

Unfortunately labour have let themselves down badly. Surprisingly unlike the tories down south where Cameron is acting in a very responsible way in regard to being the leader of the opposition in relation to this financial crisis.
57

Alan B,

28/09/2008 18:40:09
#56 Fairfax

Regarding extending the credit line.

If the BOE offered credit as a replacement for the failing credit markets on commercial terms it would not cost the tax payer and not be nationalisation.

The question is, is this a well capitalized bank who has problems due to the complete drying up of the credit market or are there other problems.

I get the feeling it is just the credit markets that is causing the problems and extending credit to them would probably have solved the problem.

There are other things though. The tories apparently offered to Brown to rush through increases in the guarantees for bank depositors to 50,000 within 7days. Brown has refused. As such runs on the bank like NR and as seems to have happened with B&B are more likely.

58

Alan B,

28/09/2008 18:43:15
#58 Nevsky

I agree i think the decision was rushed due to the short selling on shares. Not saying short selling caused the underlying issues just brought the problem to a head much quicker.

As such other alternatives could not be investigated.

I also get the impression that Lloyds and HBOS have hoodwinked the government into agreeing this and waving competition rules. Lloyds chairman has said discussions on merging the banks has been discussed for over 2yrs. Given that it would never pass competition law. Why?
59

The Pict.,

Canada 28/09/2008 22:35:43
Well this 'Nationalization' will have all the UNIONISTS puching vertically in the air as they (like # 19 SM753) think that this is a blow to the SNP. It IS NOT. It simply proves the point that Alex Salmond and the rest of the SNP supporters are right. Scotland must and WILL become independent of England and all the lackies can move South and keep Broon, Darling etc there to govern them
SLAINTE MHATH.
60

SkeptikScot,

29/09/2008 12:13:10
So the toxic mortgages are staying with the government and Santander are paying £600 million for the savings business. The bit I find odd is the £19 billion the treasury/Bank of England seem to be paying Santander for taking over the branches and back office. It seems an incredibly sum of money - think what else it could have been spent on!

I must buy some shares in Santander; this seems another great deal for them. Money for old rope.
61

SkeptikScot,

29/09/2008 12:17:30
I see all banking shares are down today ... the worst is RBOS, down over 16% this morning. The government better keep their money chest handy, might be needed again.

 

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