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Ministers plan to scrap car tax as sweetener for road tolls

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Published Date:
18 February 2007
SCOTTISH ministers are planning to scrap car tax and cut fuel duty to sweeten the pill of a new road toll scheme.
In a radical bid to cut congestion on Scottish roads, ministers want the Treasury to hand over control of all motoring taxes to Holyrood.

They would then abolish the £210-a-year cost of vehicle excise duty and also cut fuel tax to lessen the blow of road pricing.

Motorists would pay up to £1.28 a mile to drive on the country's most congested roads.

The plan mirrors outline proposals already being considered in Whitehall, under which a UK-wide road pricing scheme could be in place as early as 2014.

However, the Government is in no doubt as to public feeling on the scheme after last week's extraordinary internet protest, which saw 1.5 million people signing a motion calling for the plans to be scrapped.

Scottish Transport Minister Tavish Scott said last week he wanted things to happen "more quickly" in Scotland, criticising the "glacial" progress of the plans in the UK.

Scott now says that, if in power after the next election, he wants to enter negotiations with Westminster to hand over responsibility for motoring tax to enable the plan to go ahead.

His proposals were received with astonishment in Whitehall last night with one official describing the plan as "bonkers".

There are concerns that a Scottish-only scheme involving a reduced rate of fuel duty would see thousands of English cars and lorries coming over the Border to fill up their tanks.

Officials also warned that any move to repatriate tax powers would cause a major cut in the £30m block grant which the Treasury currently issues to the Scottish Executive.

However, Scott's Liberal Democrat party is now set to go into May's election with a demand that such powers be granted.

He said: "What we want to do is not to increase tax but to have a fair tax for motorists which is about cutting climate change and congestion. That means taking on vehicle excise duties and petrol taxes. The whole basket of current taxes needs to be looked at to change the focus.

"We would abolish vehicle excise duty, which all motorists must pay, with a revenue neutral scheme. It would be based on how, when and where people use their vehicles."

Scott said he still preferred a UK-wide approach but insisted he would not wait for delays in Westminster. He added that after the election he expected there to be a "consensus" in the Scottish parliament to take responsibility for fuel duty and car taxes to Scotland. "I would hope that there would be a good negotiating position [to take to the UK government]," he said.

In a recent government-commissioned report, former British Airways chief Sir Rod Eddington said that the busiest roads should be charged at more than £1 a mile. This figure would drop significantly for rural roads and for non-peak times.

Cars would be monitored either by having a 'black box' installed under the bonnets or via gantry-mounted receivers which would 'spy' on cars as they went past.

Westminster Transport Minister Douglas Alexander has already insisted that doing nothing is not an option, with figures predicting a massive rise in congestion in the future.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 17 February 2007 11:35 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Transport policy
 
1

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 00:24:37

Quote: Ministers plan to scrap car tax as sweetener for road tolls...................Come on people, work it out....if they are offering this, its because they KNOW they will earn far more............not to mention yet more enslavement...DO NOT FALL FOR IT :)

2

Jemima,

north of scotland 18/02/2007 00:26:05

How will these parasites determine who will pay? Are people to be penalised because they live in a certain district of Scotland? Will there be alternative routes to avoid tolls, such as the N Routes in France - there's no doubt the French roads are good, but WOW expensive! We always drove on the N routes, also well maintained roads. We live in an area with no trains, infrequent buses, we won't have an option apart from drive - this is a hugely unfair proposal and I hope it gets flung out. This is an invasive system, allowing the government to track people at all times, George Orwell must be chuckling on his cloud right now - Big Brother and Room 101 all rolled into one.

3

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 00:34:05

It really is time people educated themselves to WHO is behind this http://www.scottwebb.co.uk/15.html :)

4

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 18/02/2007 00:38:23

VOTE LIB DEM ....

and get another 5 years of inaction and weak leadership with their pals Labour.

The Lib Dems are so PC that they refuse to name young cowardly thugs who have been targetting OAPs in London.

Lib Dem-run Southwark council has refused to back down and identify two robbers who were banned from Camberwell for targeting OAPs.

Home Office guidelines urge local authorities to publicise the names and pictures of everyone over the age of 10 who has an Asbo.

Borough commander Chief Superintendent Malcolm Tillyer, pictured below, said people needed to know Asbo recipients' names if they pose a risk to the community and has ordered an immediate review.

http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200southlo...

5

Mev Brown,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 00:44:06

“In a radical bid to cut congestion on Scottish roads”, this is wrong. At best it should read “In a radical bid to cripple Scottish industry”.

This will cripple Scottish industry and the road haulage industry. Anybody that pays for anything that is transported by road will have to pay higher prices.

We don’t even have a decent railway network to take up the slack.

Tavish Scott really has lost the plot on this one.

Watch this space: www.nhsfirst.org.uk

6

Bill, Dunblane,

18/02/2007 00:50:16

Consider this:

Scotland's population is falling. Yet the roads will get busier?

Apart from central Edinburgh, which has had a policy of making life as difficult as possible for the motorist, most of the rest of Scotland has (with some very obvious exceptions) reasonably clear roads.

If the motorway infrastructure was properly completed, there would be virtually no significant problems, outwith cities, bar an hour or so during rush hour.

This is not about traffic congestion - it is about being able to track where people are, and about hitting the poorer motorist.

If they REALLY want to reduce road journies, how about banning odd number plates 3 days of the week and even number plates for another 3 days of the week. Number plate ID cameras would suffice for detection of those who break the rules. No cost would be incurred in collecting taxes, and apart from those who could afford two vehicles, non discriminatory between rich and poor?

Of course it wouldn't improve govenrment surveillance or draw in more money.

7

Wisnaeme,

Sent to Coventry. 18/02/2007 01:45:45

With the help of some friends, I did an unofficial survey of the M6 toll motorway usage in the English Midlands. Very interesting and informative. You would be amazed how creative drivers can be in the use of rat run diversions. I was also amazed to witness that while the M 6 motorway was bumper to tail and crawling along, the parallel M6 toll road which was within sight was practically empty.Even with the aid of a telephoto lens all I could video was one HGV, two vans and four cars while at the same instant you could nearly choke on the fumes wafting across from the free M 6 motorway.

Consider this. It is difficult enough to encourage exports from Scotland to europe and points east. Is it not a fact too that most of our exports transverse through England via English ports and the channel tunnel to the continent, but if a punitive surcharge by road pricing was added while travelling through England to and fro with Scottish imports and exports would that not be a serious cause for complaint by those who have a concern for the well being of the Scottish economy.

8

The Strategist,

18/02/2007 02:30:16

Mev -

I agree entirely but what on earth makes you think this bunch in Hollyrood were ever interested in Scottish industry. They are economically illiterate and utterly bereft of any ideas that don't involve taking more money out of everyone's pockets.

I fail to see why we should have to put up with these idiots.

9

Navvy,

18/02/2007 02:33:28

Pure Brilliance, Tavish!

Support this scheme, user pays as he contributes to congestion, inefficient use of time and fuel. Scotland can lead the world.

This is not tracking people, only vehicles. Additional revenue from fleet owners who can measure the efficiency of their fleets and schedule deliveries for off peak times thereby improving the flow of traffic.

Mind yu enployers and business would have to think out of the box too - difficult for many and paln their working hours and flexitime. It would even keep the scaffie trucks off the streets at peak hours.

Away you nimbys, think big for once

10

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 02:35:18

Comment@8 Dick, hi mate....Its not commerce they care about....its enslavement. These bought and paid for puppets are selling us right down the river towards a European super state with the primary goal of global enslavement.
The people in charge are never the people you see...i truly wish i was wrong

11

Navvy,

18/02/2007 02:37:23

Pure Brilliance, Tavish!
Support this scheme, user pays as he contributes to congestion, inefficient use of time and fuel. Scotland can lead the world.
This is not tracking people, only vehicles. Additional revenue would come from fleet owners who can measure the efficiency of their fleets and schedule deliveries for off peak times thereby improving the flow of traffic. Many long distaoce operators already do this with GPS and the "spy in the cab"- tachometers
Mind you employers and business would have to think out of the box too - difficult for many - and plan their working hours and flexitime. It would even keep the scaffie trucks off the streets at peak hours.
Away you nimbys, think big for once and make Scotland great

12

Desperate Dan,

Fife 18/02/2007 04:16:46

Correct me if I am wrong people but we already pay road tolls. the fuel you buy is TAXed, the purchase of the vehicle is TAXed, the servicing is TAXed the parts are TAXed, the insurance is TAXed, oh and the roads are TAXed, and you use your vehicle to drive on the roads therefor you are being TAXed for using the roads. And as a toll is collected by a government body its a TAX. Brilliant
Its like the government pension scam. they tell us they need to set up a special fund for the pension, forgetting thats what the national insurance was set up for.
They really have no respect for the great unwashed do they!
And note, any Scottish industry that does business with europe and will have to pay the english tolls as well, will loose out heavily to their southern english competition. Yes I know about the rosyth ferry, but as that is being sub contracted already, I have doubts about its long term future.
Heaven help us all!

13

Is it only me?,

Azerbaijan (for now) 18/02/2007 04:32:12

Emigrate while you can.
A devolved talking shop full of slavering idiots with no idea how real people live. I'm ashamed that I was initially so excited that I voted for it.
Add to that house prices that have lost touch with reality leaving the young with no possibility of owning their own homes and therefor nothing to aim for. Crippling student debt. A government that spends it's time pandering to minorities and immigrants.
Follow tens of thousands of your countymen every year and head for the colonies. You will never regret it!

14

Guga,

Rockall 18/02/2007 04:45:43

These parasites are already robbing us blind with taxes on this, that, and the next thing; and this stupid idea will damage Scottish industry beyond repair.

It is bad enough, for example, that in the islands we have to pay the highest ferry charges in the world (on a ferry owned by the Scottish Executive). If we then have to start paying mileage charges to travel, it will make it impossible for people to live in the islands and, for that matter, the highlands.

Are the Whigs determined to fulfil their attempts to completely clear the Western Isles that they started in the 1920's? Do they want to have a complete clearance of the highlands and islands? Do they want to totally destroy Scottish industry by making it unable to compete with the southern English?

Either Tavish Scott is completely losing the plot, or he wants to commit political suicide. With this attitude, anyone in Scotland that votes for the Whigs will actually be voting for their own destruction.

15

Pete39,

Tassy 18/02/2007 05:18:29

I am in agreement with the other Scottish intellectuals, the man is a genius. I seem to remember during a previous fuel crisis the best they could come up with was "Is your journey really necessary?" Nothing better than bringing that back to your hip pocket. If the guys in England are worried about cheap Scottish fuel you could move your petrol stations maybe ten or twenty miles back from the border and class them in the major use category. Now there is another wee earner. I am a Tasmanian so I really only sneaked in here.

16

somerferg,

Oz 18/02/2007 06:05:42

#16

Totally agree with you mate and can I just point out that lots of your fellow countryWOMEN have also gone to the colonies !

17

ScottyEdi,

18/02/2007 06:33:44

all this and they want to build hotels that will bring in more traffic to the city of Edinburgh... will they tax the tourists as well for their taxi rides or driving hired cars? Then once they've established this tax they'll raise the rate to ride the bus because that's all we'll have left.

18

W Smith,

Middle East 18/02/2007 06:51:00

The last time I drove from Perth to Inverness I was almost embarrased (sp?) by the state of the road.

Its pretty normal for countries with large amounts of oil revenue to spend it on roads as this is considered to be necessary for economic developement - but not in Scot- la-la-land.

The taxman takes something like 75% on a gallon of petrol and now Tavish the genius wants to screw us ... sorry ....you for more tax. While at the same time refusing to do some serious upgrading for the Perth to Inverness and Aberdeen to Inverness roads.

Highland Clearance II coming soon.

19

jim lad,

the capital 18/02/2007 07:05:14

#7
same happened to me twice on the M6 Toll,i couldn't believe it,was like having your own private motorway.I still don't understand the motorists logic,if i remember correctly the toll was about £2-50 to £3,but the alternative was to sit in grid lock,burn fuel and waste time.

20

Tarves57,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 07:15:12

Do politicians think that everyone earns as much as they do? I keep hearing the national average wage pitched at £25,000. There are a LOT of people earning just half of that. If it costs £500 to go and see my mother up in Inverness, then I'll never see her again. I can barely afford the petrol as it is! I'll be voting with my feet.....er... car......

21

jim lad,

the capital 18/02/2007 07:28:42

#24
I agree the national average means nothing to most people whether it's wages. housing prices or anything else it's a political throwaway line.

22

AndrewG,

London 18/02/2007 07:32:52

I was one of the 1.5 million who voted against the road toll proposal on the Downing St website. The tax that people pay is already mileage-sensitice (due petrol tax) The problem is that while these wretched politicians on either side of the border make all the right noises about "extensive consultation processes" they don't seem to take a blind bit of notice of the result. Look at Tony Blair's reaction to the overwhelming rejection of his idea. Look at what Red Ken has done on the extension of the London Congestion Surcharge. A massive majority of the residents in the extended area voted against the extension but he has just ignored it. (and they wonder why voter apathy just grows more and more....) For what it is worth why does someone not get an MSP to organise a similar website referendum for Tavish's idea? If they won't do it then maybe The Scotsman can do it.

23

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 18/02/2007 07:37:28

The system has to be tested before it is introduced to England. Remember the Poll Tax? A vote for Scotland is what is needed and to get rid of the Labout marionettes and their Lib-Dem Glove puppets

24

Yamfudkas,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 07:41:13

This is absolute bonkers.

As someone who commutes to Glasgow most days I would have to pay over £100 PER DAY to do this. The best part of my salary. I would have to quit my job, put my families well being at risk.

If this loon thinks the poll tax was bad, let him try this one.

There is absolutely no justification for this tax, if the want to cut emmissions then fit equipment to cars.

MAD

I have a Liberal MSP. Theyve just lost my vote

25

john montgomery,

18/02/2007 07:52:15

great idea. most of those against are the people who will not use public transport even when it is readily available. get off your butts ans walk to the bus or train. rural areas will not be affected which have no real alternative to cars.

26

GrahamH,

18/02/2007 08:12:52

I NEED to drive 50,000 miles a year on business. My businesses are scattered, not near railway stations, airports etc so driving between is only practical way - I have researched this.

I use 100% bio diesel fuel so have no carbon emissions (and is better for my engine) so is not a global warming threat.

So, lose my business, lose my income as a tens of thousand tax is ot sustainable. Family life punished for Government tax effectively.

This will be labours poll tax if they push it.

27

scotspatriot,

18/02/2007 08:21:14

As if Westminster would roll over at Tavish demanding anything. What a bloody laugh.

SNP all the way
In May

28

scotspatriot,

18/02/2007 08:22:37

john montgomery

You're not living in the real world, are you?

Are you a politician?

29

JG,

Fife 18/02/2007 08:34:45

I saw on the news this morning that there is to be an e-mail sent to everyone who signed the e-petition, explaining the reasons behind this tolling charge thingy - I don't want THAT!!! I know why they are proposing this tosh - that's why I signed the damn e-petition!!!

30

Mikey,

18/02/2007 08:52:58

Where's all the Unionists? I felt sure that Royster, Media1 etc. would be on to tell us that this is good for us and we shouldn't complain!

There can only be one vote in May and that is for Scotland. Any other vote and, well, the Norwegians have a name for people who want to see their country ruled by another.....

31

eric,

18/02/2007 08:54:34

Hes got one of those faces id like to stub a fag out on.

32

Scaramouche,

18/02/2007 08:55:33

I got lost on the roads
In the fields the birds were singing
I got lost on the roads
And the day was just beginning
As I drove around in the morning rain
I had a feeling I can explain
I was lost on the roads, and paying.

I was lost on the roads
And in my car a black box was tracking
Every mile that I went
And it got so bad that I was cursing
Every politician who voted for it
And I knew I shouldnt but I really did care
I was lost .... and paying a toll!

Ooh la la la ooh la la la f**k!
Ooh la la la cr*p
Ooh la la la ooh la la la f**k!
Ooh la la la c**p
Ooh la la la ooh la la la f**k
Ooh la la la c**P

I was lost on the roads
And the motorways were overflowing
I was lost on the roads
I noticed up above the stars were glowing
I couldn't even call on my mobile phone
To tell my baby I won't get home
Cos I was lost on the roads, and paying!

Ooh la la la ooh la la la f**k!
Ooh la la la cr*p
Ooh la la la ooh la la la f**k!
Ooh la la la c**p
Ooh la la la ooh la la la f**k
Ooh la la la c**P

Yeah, in my car, it looked like a lil black roll
That was counting up the miles to pay the toll
I was lost on the roads .... and peeved!!!

Ooh la la la ooh la la la f**k!
Ooh la la la cr*p
Ooh la la la ooh la la la f**k!
Ooh la la la c**p
Ooh la la la ooh la la la f**k
Ooh la la la c**P

*Adapted from "Lost In France" by Ronnie Scott and Steve Wolfe, memorably performed by the legendary Bonnie Tyler!

33

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 09:02:21

Westminster is never going to devolve control of vehicle excise duty!? Its called independence!
Lachie Todd

34

Andra, Dundee,

18/02/2007 09:06:48

This comment forum seems to lack open-minded people. The principles of Tavish Scott's proposal are excellent. The total tax would be the same – but people using busy roads at rush hour would pay more while those using quite roads at quite times would pay less. I would hope that rural areas would benefit since rural drivers currently pay lots of fuel tax to drive on quite roads. Currently urban business is crippled by having to pay for vehicles and drivers sitting in queues – this costs them even more money than the tax – so they would pay more tax but less would be wasted sitting in queues. The net effect could be a significant net saving in costs.

35

Gordon,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 09:08:57

How confused can someone get?

The LibDems do not want a separate Scotland, but want all the rules to be different!

36

JG,

Fife 18/02/2007 09:08:58

Since it's their brilliant idea, why don't the politicians have these things fitted to their cars first to see if it works. We could also save a fortune if we stopped their allowances (everyone else pays their way from their wages) and cut down on the number of politicians we have in the first place - there are too many of them with too little to do.

37

Luxybob,

EU 18/02/2007 09:10:00

Folks,

Is it not about time we all realised this is needed, and sooner rather than later.

If it happens that England do it later, than all the better,

38

Alasdair McWhirter,

taking time off from cleaning my bicycle 18/02/2007 09:10:48

#35, eric - I do hope that if you get round to doing it, its not in a pub, theatre, shop or anywhere like that, it has to be outside these places. Remember this is the toytown government that invents silly laws.

39

JG,

Fife 18/02/2007 09:11:50

#41 Luxybob
NO!!!!!

40

eric,

18/02/2007 09:23:27

Not in BLackpool it aint ,Ive got until july 1st to get him :P

41

Robert Law,

Dundee 18/02/2007 09:25:47

Now with the stupid Liberal Democrat Party ( which is neither Liberal or Democratic) we have anuther ploy to rip of scotland first ,like the poll tax

what happens if a scots driver wants to go south of the border after this stupid policy is in fource? have to buy a tax disc for use in England?

like labour's council tax it wil be the low paid who will be the main victims , people wil be forced of the road ,poverty will increase due to the cost of goods rising in the shops due to the extra road tax.

This wil do nouthing to stop global warming which is caused by changes in the sun and cosmic radiation, the earth has went through periods of global cooling and warming for millions of years.

this is just anuther exscuse for english/london political partys to rip off the scots public

time for independence

42

Thomas the Tank,

Embra 18/02/2007 09:34:42

Whatever sub-Editor wrote the headline 'Ministers plan to scrap car tax . . ' clearly didn't bother to read the article. Nobody's actually 'planning' to do anything. This is just another bit of kite-flying by Tavish 'Look at Me - I'm a Viking' Scott to try and impress the loony greens come May, when the 'all things to all men' LibDems will be prostituting themselves to stay in power. LibDems are neither Liberal nor Democratic - they're control-freak Fascists. Hopefully it won't just be one Whitehall official describing the LibDems as "bonkers", but the whole Scottish electorate.

43

,

18/02/2007 09:35:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

millport curler,

The bicycle island 18/02/2007 09:39:26

Guga

"It is bad enough, for example, that in the islands we have to pay the highest ferry charges in the world (on a ferry owned by the Scottish Executive)."

The Cumbrae Ferry makes the road charge look attractive - £4-60 for .9 of a mile and no option!

45

Alex.,

18/02/2007 09:42:46

It is difficult to defend him from accusations of being nuts!

46

The Strategist,

18/02/2007 09:49:44

#46 Thomas the Tank -

Yes you're right but the very fact that Tavish Scott came up with this idea and thought highly enough about it to make it public demonstrates how small minded and visionless he and his LibDem buddies really are.

47

JD,

18/02/2007 09:55:53

I would like to see a list of all those "so-called" CONGESTED ROADS..

This also means that.. the EXEC could suddenly declare a road "CONGESTED".. and start charging..

Road Tax.. although.. we all hate paying it... stays at a "fixed cost".. for a year... This new idea could be altered on a whim

48

commonsense,

Fife 18/02/2007 09:57:51

Could you imagine a big International Company being run successfully by people of no particular expertise,where there appears no long term strategy,and where the main purpose of half the company is to run down the other half? No ,neither can I.
I realise that everybody has to be represented,but if you took the management team from Tesco's or the likes of Richard Branson,to run Scotland PLC, surely with their proven backgrounds you would expect better results.
This is not a swipe at any party,just a thought for long term and planned change.

49

Gairdener,

Ayrshire 18/02/2007 10:04:55

Did you know of this?
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Scrap the planned vehicle tracking and road pricing policy. More details
Submitted by Peter Roberts – Deadline to sign up by: 20 February 2007 – Signatures: 1,560,130
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/

50

sceptic,

livingston 18/02/2007 10:11:07

"Ministers plan to scrap car tax as sweetener for road tolls"
I also believe in fairies,ESP,flying saucers and global warming.

51

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 10:21:33

53
I knew about it,and actually had it included in a sister page of the Scotsman a while ago.I have heard since that the site collapsed due to the volume of protest,but the pertinent point is that they are seriously thinking about dumping this outwith Scotland,but going ahead with it in Scotland despite its rural nature and clearly unsuitability never mind the fact that we dont want it anyway!
Whilst any opposition to this will obviously help,a kick in the ballot box in May will serve notice on Tavish Scott that he had better waken up and realise that he is only there because of the coalition which is neccessary under the system Labour and Liberal employed which is by design the one which least allows the SNP a level playing field(or at least anybody with an O level arithmetic can work this out)so the answer is consign the Liberal party to the political dustbin in May.
Meanwhile the Tories are suggesting a pensioners rebate on council tax,but its banded of course.The lowest pension recipient gets a hundred or so,and the largest houses get between 1and 2 thousand.The result of course is SON OF POLL TAX!
Come on Scotland. Its half time,we put through our own net twice in the first half,ITS TIME to stand together and play as a team.

52

SouthernSkye,

Currently Cologne 18/02/2007 10:21:47

Forgive me if I repeat anything that has already been posted as I haven't had time to read all the comments yet but I was thinking about this:
I think we all know and agree that Scotland is a huge lure for tourists. This being so then how are all these ludicrous road tolls going to deal with "tourist congestion"? Are they intending to loiter around the Newcastle docks and hand every tourist coming off the ships a 'black-box'?
(mot congestion where I live IS tourist/summer related!)

From the flip-siede, this scheme will also have a negative effect on tourism with the many who fly/drive using hire cars. Already hire cars are not a cheap method of transport. If road pricing is introduced I assume each hire car would also be fitted with a 'black-box'?
That will mean the costs will increase meaning that tourists will be less willing to stray from the main populations centres (airports!). This would have a knock-on impact in the Highlands and Islands where tourism is a major part of the income of many.

I'm surprised VisitScotland have not pondered this impact on tourism and reported directly to Edinburgh.

53

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 10:24:06

53 I meant of course the smallest house band *

54

Disgruntled of Dalgety,

Dalgety Bay 18/02/2007 10:25:13

If it costs more in the end then they are out on their ear come the next election.

55

Nitwyt,

parked up 18/02/2007 10:37:47

Who pays for the cost of installing the required electronics to the vehicle? Will I with my relatively economical vehicle have to pay the same as someone driving a bloated petrol pig? At least with current tax structure them that drives the pigs pays for the slop to feed 'em? If ever there was an anti-green idea, it is the road toll plan.

56

burned up,

glasgow 18/02/2007 10:41:43

76590

Its not only your food that will go up.

its also your council tax, councils hire service companies to carryout there legal duties eg gas, water, electric maint an testing.

a small company i run runs up 1200 miles a week for the councils that would be £76,590 a year in additional costs, we wont be picking up the tab, you will.

They banner this under ECO solutions just another excuse. why dont the ban imports from the biggest carbon producers or tax them until they change there act.

57

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 10:42:10

59
Agreed probably,but when you say the next election I trust you recognise that to vote Liberal in May is now a suicidal tendency.(Labour also of course)
We must ensure this is a non starter here in Scotland.What happens in England may or may not be similar. I dont intend to allow even the possibilty of the Scottish Executive to steamroller over the people with no regard for our wishes.
GET THEM OUT!

58

Bicknoller,

Somerset 18/02/2007 10:42:55

I think this is a brilliant idea.

I can get my car registered at my brother's house in Scotland to avoid the criminal levels of road tax charged in England, and then use the car every day in Somerset and dodge the criminal levels of Scottish road charging.

Perhaps the idea that cars paying zero car tax in Scotland will be banned from English roads or will have to pay an English road use toll as they cross the border coming South.

Brilliant. This is the best idea to come out of Scotland since Scottish independence.

59

ddmc,

18/02/2007 10:49:39

#1 whats the betting on Scotland being the test ground for pay per mile ? with the added bonus of GPS tracking on every car, just like maggie used us as a test for poll tax ?
Hope you all signed the e-petition !

60

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 10:52:03

THIS E MAIL CIRCULATED APPROX 3 weeks ago,and should clarify what this is about
If you drive a car, please read -

Sarah Kennedy was talking about this proposed car tax scheme on Radio 2. Apparently there is only one month left to register your objection to the 'Pay As You Go' road tax.

The petition is on the 10 Downing St website but they didn't tell anybody about it. Therefore at the time of Sarah's comments only 250,000 people had signed it and 750,000 signatures are required for the goverment to at least take any notice.

Once you've given your details (you don't have to give your full address, just house number and postcode will do), they will send you an email with a link in it. Once you click on that link, you'll have signed the petition.

The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it. The tracking device will cost about 200 and in a recent study by the BBC, the lowest monthly bill was 28 for a rural florist and 194 for a delivery driver. A non working mother who used the car to take the kids to school paid 86 in one month.

On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody will know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit in time you can probably expect a Notice of Intended Prosecution with your monthly bill.

If you are concerned about this Orwellian plan and want to stop the constant bashing of the car driver, please sign the petition on No 10's new website (link below) and pass this on to as many people as possible. Sign up if you value your freedom and democratic rights -


http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax

<http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax><

61

Citylocal Fife,

North of the bridge and right of(f) Jack McConnell 18/02/2007 11:01:15

I'd like to see the arithmetic; at £1.28 per mile we only have to drive about 165 miles and we have paid the equivalent of a years RFL.

Also - Just how much fuel duty will be refunded/removed and how can this be administered?

It should however be good for tourism in the borders and D &G, and will no doubt increase house prices there, as people flock in to fill up. No doubt Scottish Enterprise will be funding many foreign firms to set up 'factories' on the border whereby fuel can be delivered to Scotland, and then exported to England via a 20 metres or so pipeline. Only problem is that the profits won't stay in Scotland.

The 'Hootsman' states that; "Motorists would pay up to £1.28 a mile to drive on the country's most congested roads. " ........

I thought that the point was that we should pay to drive on the *least* congested roads, otherwise the SE will sit on their hands (not much change there as Tavish himself admits) and look forward to the huge cash bonus they will achieve from encouraging total gridlock, and they will then focus their efforts and our money not on building anything worthwhile, but instead on some further icons to *their* greatness.

Perhaps they then will have yet another stroke of genius and consequently introduce a system whereby you are charged for the *time* we spend 'parking' on the trunk roads and motorways!

Roll on May 03rd

62

Ken,

18/02/2007 11:01:37

DO NOT TRUST LIBERALS THEY ARE THE BIGGEST LIARS IN POLITICS. THEY CHANGE COLOUR NOT BY COUNTRY, BUT BY STREET.
NOT TO BE TRUSTED,
AND TO MAE IT WORSE THEY ARE A WEE DIDDY PARTY THAT WILL BE ABLE TO DICTATE ITS CRUMMY AGENDA AFTER MAY WITH LABOUR. THIS WITH THE SNP THE LARGEST PARTY.
DEMOCRATIC,THEY DO NOT KNOW THE MEANING OF THE WORD.

63

Statsman,

18/02/2007 11:05:32

The whole toll tax thing is an incredibly costly idea. Will it cut traffic or will it simply increase taxes and increase government snooping?

I see not point in voting for the Scottish Lib Dems. They are just an extension of Scottish Labour.

64

Pilrig,

Livingston 18/02/2007 11:10:54

Curious that someone with the label Liberal Democrat can support the use of spy in the sky on his fellow citizens.

65

Pilrig,

Livingston 18/02/2007 11:16:00

john montgomery #29 - 'get off your butts and walk to the bus and train' Aye, and carry my hefty tool bag, hard hat & safety gear as well ? You must be an office worker living in the New Toon, pal !

66

jennie,

inverness 18/02/2007 11:18:11

at the possible rate of 20p p rural mile this proposal would effectively double my road tax. Much as I would like to live without a car, in the absence of coherent integrated public transport system I have to

What will happen, incidentally, if you drive south of the border without road tax? If this idiotic scheme goes through, what do you bet everyone who lives in Berwick would register their cars in Scotland...

Think first, speak afterwards, Tavish! if you want to cut congestion, one idea would be to get those lorries off the roads and onto the railways first. Just making Tesco use the trains would free up a lot of road space

67

jdships,

18/02/2007 11:20:02

46 Thomas the Tank, Embra

Good post ! The "Company car and a job " party have once again shown their true colours - stay in power at all costs .
Don't be fooled by yet another stealth tax straight from the Gordon Brown book of " How you can fool the people etc etc"
What have L/D's done for the electorate of Scotland during this Parliament ?
Nothing but prove they are hypocrits and neither liberal or democratic

Jo Grimond , a true man amongst men, must be turning in his grave !
A wasted vote methinks !!

68

ScotsLass58,

Red Kens Toon 18/02/2007 11:22:07

#5 Mev Brown.

"Tavish Scott really has lost the plot on this one."
I want to agree with you Mev 100% on this one, however I have one SMALL problem!

For someone to lose the plot don't they actually have to have a grip of the plot in the first place? :)

69

Mally,

18/02/2007 11:22:45

Wouldn't this just vastly increase driving on other roads with a consequent increase in fuel consumption and global warming?

70

Andra, Dundee,

18/02/2007 11:22:58

DO NOT TRUST KEN!

71

jdships,

18/02/2007 11:27:32

71 jennie, inverness / 11

Just making Tesco use the trains would free up a lot of road space

A real old dried out chestnut this !!
How many Tesco stores are near a railway line ?
Tesco did try it to Inverness and Dingwall and was a complete disaster
Trains were late , broke down , some never left Glasgow within five hours of their scheduled time.
Also pray tell us how you would get the goods from the railhead to the stores/shops if not by road ?

Sorry back to the drawing board for you I'm afraid

72

Pa broon,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 11:28:05

Some Sweetner, I drive a small car and the current road tax is £100 per annum. 78 Miles in the peak rush hour and the sweetner has gone. How about doing away with the duty on fuel altogether. 23 pence the true cost of fuel plus vat might be closer to the mark.

73

Happy driver,

18/02/2007 11:33:16

As my job requires me to travel around the UK the cost of driving will probably make me reduntant. The cost for a UK sales force my company may as well leave the UK.

If this doesn't happen I will choose to fly as it will be cheaper. Not sure how this helps the environment?

74

Huntarian,

Carse of Stirling 18/02/2007 11:34:44

From a parallel universe readers might like to have a look at a well written cost analysis of Red Ken's congestion charge, which uses largely the same technology that would be propagated for road pricing.
Cost over 4 years since introduction £900million. Net projected surplus (not actually achieved as yet) £25 million
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/londonmayor/2007/02/phi...
Result --- just another stealth tax which creates jobs for Labour and the lib dems palls in Capita.
Just as well Tavish Scott represents Shetland, can't imagine road pricing would be an issue there.
Maybe its just something to negotiate away for their next coalition agreement with the Joke.

75

Jimbo Jimbo,

Scotland 18/02/2007 11:34:46

Our overpaid Scots Politicians should go back to teaching and social work - they were good at that. Not so in politics where they are extremely lightweight and a drain on our pockets! Save the barking mad ideas for Westminster - we are paying for them as well!
Road tolls will hit the lower paid workers, working mothers, pensioners etc who need a car as a lifeline to get around on necessary business - let's face it our public transport is expensive and ineffective. Those who drive their big cars won't even bat an eyelid at paying road tolls - certainly the big cheeses will write these off to company expenses which inevitable will be passed back to consumers - so we will be paying our own road-tolls directly and also indirectly for many others. We have seen already this week how much we pay towards our politicians' travel!

76

Scorpionette,

Cumbernauld 18/02/2007 11:34:48

I signed the e-petition when it was at 250,000.

I have elderly parents who live 30 minute drive away. Currently, I could visit several times a week by car.

To reach them by public transport I have to walk 1 mile, bus to the train station, 30 minute journey to Glasgow, walk 15 minutes to other station, train to their home town (rare running times), walk 1 mile to get another bus, then half a mile to their home.

My daughter would have a similar problem visiting her Dad if she could not drive.

Two small (perhaps considered selfish or small
minded ) examples of personal difficulty. However, our public transport infrastructure is completely inadequate to deal with the needs of the country and its people.

Others here have adequately and intelligently represented the commerical, cost and logistical problems of the proposal.

I find the arrogance of someone who would say it has to be implemented despite the wishes of the electorate (Tavish) to be the most astonishing.

Forgive me if I am confused.
Who put them there?
Who do they represent?
Who can vote them out?

I cannot help but wonder how many of Tavish's contemporaries actually support him or if they pushed him out on the ledge to test how many would push him off!

77

Mally,

18/02/2007 11:35:07

#76 There's a big difference between driving goods from a station (railhead) to a store and driving them all the way from spain.

78

Unbeliever,

18/02/2007 11:35:51

We scrap car tax, but no doubt have to pay for the privilege of having the snooper fitted to our cars. What about cross border traffic? How do we charge vehicles coming from England.
Does Tavish Scott believe the respondants to the on line petition were all English or does he simply not believe in democracy.
Sorry, forgot he is LibDem, the fourth largest party that seems to believe their alliance with Labour & the power they wield is democratic.

79

Dod fae Orkney,

North Sea 18/02/2007 11:39:19

Typical Libdem dellusions of grandeur. Just like that tosser Nicol Stephens, flying down to the Brit awards while telling us ordinary mortals to cut our CO2 emmisions. Remember most libdem votes come from rural areas and I for one can't wait until May!

80

musicismylife,

18/02/2007 11:39:24

Can't believe I'm the first one here to say yet another triumph for Scaramouche. Your comment is within the song parody id spot on!

81

,

18/02/2007 11:48:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 379943, Article id was mapped to record!
82

Jemima,

north of scotland 18/02/2007 11:51:57

I wonder what would happen if the same 1,562,000 people who signed the road petition all turned up on Monday morning to use trains, buses, trams etc. Would we then have a human traffic jam in the system? I don't have a bus or a train to take me to work - so I wouldn't have an option, people like me would simply have to pay this awful toll. Come on folks, this is going to affect so many people, if we don't blast the Lib/Lab leadership out of the water then we're sunk. Whatever your political persuasion, it really is time for change. Vote wisely in May.

83

Alistair Stewart,

LIB DEMS SUPPORT MORE CRIMINALS ON THE STREET 18/02/2007 11:59:29

Last Updated: Sunday, 18 February 2007, 00:36 GMT

E-mail this to a friend Printable version

Lib Dems 'new approach' on crime

Nicol Stephen addressed the conference on Saturday
The Scottish Liberal Democrats are to unveil plans for tackling crime.
The party's Scottish conference in Aviemore will hear proposals for a "new approach" to law and order.

If they remain in power after the Holyrood May elections, they want the shortest prison terms to be replaced with community sentencing.

On Saturday, the Lib Dems announced plans to recruit 1,000 new community police officers and a sentencing and crime reduction bill.

Scottish leader Nicol Stephen said the bill would be introduced in July, with the party's community policing plans to follow in August.


SO IF YOU WANT TO SEND OUT THE SIGNAL TO THE SCUM WHO BLIGHT PEOPLE'S LIFE THROUGH ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR AND BURGLARY AND ASSAULT THEN SIMPLY VOTE LIB DEM.

AS USUAL THE SANDAL WEARING BLEEDING HEARTS ARE MORE ON THE SIDE OF LOW LIFES THAN LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS.

84

Gaza,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 12:01:58

Laughable. I'm currently working towards emigrating to Australia. Does anybody blame me?

85

IWright,

Edinburgh, birthplace of Tony Blair 18/02/2007 12:02:08

I can think of at least three possible outcomes if this happens:
1. People in low paid jobs will have even less incentive to work because of the cost of getting there and back, or will be unable to reach certain workplaces because there is inadequate public transport provision and the cost of taking a car is prohibitive.
2. The gap between the affluent and the not affluent will widen even further by pricing the less well-off off the roads.
3. A policy that is largely inappropriate to Scotland will be another reason for independence where we can adopt only those policies that are right for Scotland.

86

Chikderic,

Inverness 18/02/2007 12:03:30

This is a clever idea to stop the rich in their huge gas-guzzling cars paying more than those of us in small fuel-efficient cars. Vehicle excise duty is partly based, effectively, on car size and the amount of fuel duty increaes with the ineffciency of the vehicle. So removing both of these for the same mileage rate for everyone on a particular road at a given time will ensure the rich pay the same as the poor. So it is the poll tax all over again.

When are our lords and masters going to use public transport themselves. Does anyone believe that politicians and senior civil servants have ever waited at a bus stop in the pouring rain for a bus inhabited by drunken scum?

87

Denis,

18/02/2007 12:04:26

Some big problems with the original plan to use the EU's Galileo satellite system for this, apparently, as it seems unlikely that they'll be available before 2012, if then. See Christopher Booker, today, for details, including reference to EU Directive 2004/52:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

Hence I suppose the alternative of "gantry-mounted receivers which would 'spy' on cars as they went past".

88

SorenB,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 12:04:43

Congestion and car filled roads are not my idea of a good future so anything that makes car owners think twice about jumping into their tin scrap heaps for another unrequired journey gets my backing. Lets get real here, most car owners jump into these things at the drop of a hat. This will prevent that continuing and make car owners become more conservative or maybe even use these things called legs to do a little walking!

89

CJO,

The Maghreb 18/02/2007 12:05:11

The solution is simple. Cut the number of cars on the road by making it impossible for people that earn the lower incomes to have one. This makes sense as people on low incomes can only afford duff old polluting cars that are generally unsafe and in a poor state of repair, not to mention unsightly! A car is a terrible expense for these people so it is simply kinder to remove the car from their budget.

Put simply, means test car ownership. If you don't earn enough you can't have one.

There are many advantages of this such as cutting crime - hardly going to use the No. 19 bus as a get away vehicle. Much reduced fuel emissions, no city congestion as the ordinaries will be in the bus routes and the more deserving will be in their motors. There will be increased job opportunities - well you will need more public transport wont you, so you will get more jobs as bus conductors, drivers, mechanics and cleaners; better health - if the public transport pricing policy is pitched correctly it will be too expensive for the city centre dwelling worker to have anyother option other than to cycle or walk to work. Fewer cars, fewer accidents, no more A&E congestion thus freeing the NHS to provide twenty first century service for the now healthier Scottish population.

Resources can then be freed up to build the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route thereby ensuring it doesn't go through Nicol Stephens constituency.

Vote for me, you know it makes sense!

90

CJO,

The Maghreb 18/02/2007 12:12:59

Come in Number 85 your medication is ready! What you just did was describe the problem created by socialism which are whooly embraced by the SNP.

Independence, why not? SNP? You're having a laugh.

91

SorenB,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 12:13:17

#93 You get my vote here and now ;)

92

Alistair Stewart,

LIB DEMS SUPPORT MORE CRIMINALS ON THE STREET 18/02/2007 12:22:42

#94

Learn to spell and get your facts right ....

btw: who would you suggest everyone vote for then?

93

Flying Upsidedown,

Middle of Edinburgh 18/02/2007 12:24:13

Navvy at #9 & 11

Do you honestly think that this will make any real inroads into congestion with out forcing up the costs of everything? All the usual culprits will be exempted from the tolls, council/local authority vehicles, taxis etc etc. Companies will certainly not pay their staff more money to work shifts and unsocial hours without passing the costs onto the consumer. Many groups (retail, banking, local authority, education etc) simply cannot change their hours and the people who work there will be the ones who will be penalised financially. These are the groups who will be least available to afford the extra money as they are the peoply who are paid the least.

There is one obvious solution, sort out the transport network BEFORE any form of roads pricing is brought in. Have an intigrated, regular reasonably priced bus/train/tram network that covers the whole of the country allowing commuters to get to work quickly and when they want to travel. Have sufficient quality roads leading to park'n'ride facilities without the queues like those on the M8/M9 at present and have a constant stream of buses, trams or trains running quickly to all points.

Look at Edinburgh at the moment, it's the only capital city in europe without a train link at its airport. The tram developement is not planned to go to the hospital (situated in the outskirts of the city!) How can we have any faith in a government to put in place a fair roads pricing policy when they have been totally incapable of getting it right up to now? Why should the suddenly change? It is just another money raising scheme to fund the lavish life styles of the leeches at Hollyrood.

94

jdships,

18/02/2007 12:25:32

#76 There's a big difference between driving goods from a station (railhead) to a store and driving them all the way from spain.

If this traffic was moved to rail it would still have to be moved by road from the railhead
As I say a well worn old chestnut !!

95

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 12:34:55

Here is a link to a map of the Leading surveillance societies in the EU and the World....guess who's top alongside Russia and China :)http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-545269&als[theme]=Privacy%20and%20Human%20Rights

96

CJO,

The Maghreb 18/02/2007 12:35:36

JEFF - Who would I vote for? Read post 93.

97

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 12:35:56

Try this link :)http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-545269&als[theme]=Privacy%20and%20Human%20Rights

98

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 12:36:25

It appears your not allowed to see it :)

99

Xhile,

England 18/02/2007 12:37:56

I can't understand how this situation has been reached.
In almost every other country in the world, when a road system gets congested, the Government builds more road space.
Somehow, the Electorate has been brainwashed into thinking the UK is a special case where normal rules don't apply. What was once a 'pollution' problem is suddenly a 'congestion' problem.
How the hell has Friends of the Earth managed to convince people that "new roads just fill up with traffic so don't build any"
Of course they do you morons - that's how congestion is tackled - and other roads then have less traffic on them!
Build some more bloody ROADS!
All this congestion business started with the loony left insisting that cars were somehow intrinsically evil - most of us laughed at them but now they're in charge. The lunatics have taken over the madhouse.
Just think, if in twenty years there's a breakthrough in clean engine car technology and there's no 'pollution' reason to restrict motorists Britain will be a Third World backwater and the laughing stock of the World.
Congestion? Just check on the available road capacity in Britain compared with all other European countries - it's a joke.
One last thing, if our Labour loonies are so concerned about road congestion, why have they let in a two million immigrants who also all drive cars?

100

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 12:38:24

Heres Privacy Internationals main page, go look yourselves http://www.privacyinternational.org/

101

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 12:39:20

93
Were you one of the script writers for "Yes Minister"
If not ,why not?
Well done chaps. The Scotsman paper might be going downhill,but the correspondents on here are compulsive reading!

102

CJO,

The Maghreb 18/02/2007 12:39:35

Oh and JEFF, just what is F@@@@? It doesn't appear to have the correct number of symbols to correctly spell the word I presume you mean. Please stay away from glass houses.

103

Seannair,

Oban 18/02/2007 12:41:36

#22
Drive from Glasgow to Fort William and I guarantee you will be embarassed.

Tavish should go back to Lerwick and burn another boat.

104

Skeptic#1,

Worcestershire, England 18/02/2007 12:48:59

Go on work it out as #1 suggested. If the 'social meddlers' in any Parliament reduce fuel duty to nothing and then charge ONLY 50p a mile to use the roads; with the average mpg being say 35 for most cars then the equivalent cost of fuel will be £ 17.50 a gallon, plus the cost of the fuel itself. #23 also mentions the M6 toll road; I recall that the MD of the toll road company was quoted, when asked about potential charges for using the road, as saying "they will pay what I say!" Guess what after the honeymoon period was over the charges went up by 50%. Once those in power establish the 'PRINCIPLE' of road charging all they need to do is keep gradually increasing the cost you pay ... BECAUSE THEY CAN and you have GIVEN them direct access to your wallet! Red Ken's congestion charge for London is another prime example of this ... eight quid for having to go into his money trap is taking the mick and he knows it ... trust me ... as a frequent visitor to the Capital ... no one in their right mind wants to drive into London, they do because they have to! Like the door-step salesmen, if you give these people just a toe in the door they will have you at their mercy and by the troat before you know it! Global warming and the congestion goblin is just the bollocks they feed you to get you to fall for it ... just like salesmans patter. If you want to resolve these problems there are better solutions that don't involve robbing the poorest who HAVE TO drive to work to feed themselves and their families.

105

SouthernSkye,

Currently Cologne 18/02/2007 12:51:27

#98....

....."#76 There's a big difference between driving goods from a station (railhead) to a store and driving them all the way from spain.
If this traffic was moved to rail it would still have to be moved by road from the railhead
As I say a well worn old chestnut "!!.......


Using rail would be a benefit, it is not an old chestnut.Using rail and coastal shipping would negate the requirement of long-distance road haulage.Then the goods can be moved locally to their final destination. This could further be anhanced by ensuring local road haulage was done from 10pm to 6am.
Do you not think that, using Tesco in Dingwall as an example, goods could be shipped into the firth of forth, then rail to Inverness and onto Dingwall. Then locally 'hauled' to their final destination is a better option that lots of trucks travelling up from (for example) Dover?

106

CJO,

The Maghreb 18/02/2007 12:52:09

No. 105 - I am currently living on a coal fired motor yacht in the Antarctic trying to do my bit to guarantee global warming. As the temperatures soar, the heady days of the Saltcoats and Bute Riviera can be re-lived by the non-car owning ordinaries of the next generation taking day trips to the coast on the ubiquitous No. 19 bus.

107

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 12:58:29

I can see Tavish becoming a derogatory remark in scots language soon.
IN fact as soon as MAY!

I wonder though,will they include the new dual cabbageway proposed on Shetland?

108

Neil,

9% Growth Party 18/02/2007 13:01:06

If taken seriously this is insane.

As Robert 45 points out it will be unworkable. It would lead to English drivers registering with scots relatives & petrol stations at gretna doing very well but all at the expense of deductions taken from the Scots treasury.

Personally I don't take it seriously - it is just for the election & to allow a rooad pricing scheme after which we will be told "sorry we looked into it & it wouldn't work after all".

Road pricing will be an enormously expensive scheme whereas petrol & car tax are relatively cheap tp collect. A basic rule of any tax is that it shoyuld be easy 7 cheap to collect.

Another point not mentioned about road pricing is that it gives the government the ability to know where anybody who drives is at any time - it is potentially far more oppressive than ID cards.

109

Androsthenes,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 13:01:36

Scottish Exrcutive 'ministers' have no control over road tax or fuel duty .
This is just hot air.

110

redshank,

New York 18/02/2007 13:04:42

As a frequent visitor to Scotland over the years . I,ve noticed how prices are increaseing every time we go. Over the last five years, our Dollar has gone from 1.53 to 1.99 to the pound. So even if prices stayed the same the visitor using the green back has been hit. I do,nt know how this road tax would work for the visitor. Can you image going on line and getting a quote from Hertz/Avis that said final price subject to road congestion tax. I do,nt think so. Also once your there ,you are certainly going to think twice before venturing out . That,s just the type of stresssful vacation people try and avoid.
I can agree with a congestion tax for cities but not the rural areas. Since it seems most of the money is being made in the city. Will the people in cities travel out to restaurants/hotels in the country side? If its going to cost an extra twenty pound round trip to get there. These restaurants/hotels need this businese to survive. The last thing Scotland needs is a decline in the country side. I feel the best type of tax is at the fuel pump. Use more pay more.

111

Alistair Stewart,

LIB DEMS SUPPORT MORE CRIMINALS ON THE STREET 18/02/2007 13:09:22

#100

I see another freak fringe artist - voting for any party that consists of a delusional mind (Labour and yourself for example) - is a wasted vote.

Hilarious comment about only owning a car if you can afford it - who sets the level of affordability - you?

Obviously cold weather stops the grey cells from firing up!!

112

Carole,

Broxburn 18/02/2007 13:13:55

I have to travel for work so my cost would go through the roof - like many others who have posted I would seriously have to consider whether to bother working. I also travel the M8 every day from Livingston to Bellshill - the only bit of the road that is busy is from Newhouse onwards. This is partly due to people moving out of Glasgow for affordable housing and then commuting for work. It is amazing the difference when the schools are on holiday! Less commuters as parents are on holiday as well. Roads would be less congested if people lived where they work but housing policy is making this impossible. So introducing road charging wouldn't make a difference - all that would happen is the old A roads running alongside motorways would become even more congested as people avoid expensive roads. How would that solve the problem? Get a grip - the motorists currently pay something like 5 times the amount spent on the roads in taxation and the balance certainly isn't getting spent on public transport. This policy certainly isn't going to win the LibDems many votes!

113

redshank,

New York 18/02/2007 13:29:40

After reading a lot of the coments. We have the same problem in Washington as you have in Westminster/Holyrood. That is, Governments do,nt generate wealth. They SPEND it.

114

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 13:36:06

114
You completely miss the point.
A new system of taxation could be implemented in Scotland and would be controlled by Holyrood.Because we dont have one today it does not mean we will not have one ever!
Read the proposals.Tavish the Viking has said that he favours implemntation in Scotland irrespective of whether it happens down south or not.
He is the transport minister in Scotland. If we dont boot him out he will very probably go ahead with this. Are you going to explain to the motorists in Scotland after its been implememented?
Even if you are correct,the fact that it was even debated should be enough to tell you get rid of the Lib Dems or suffer the consequences.
SCOTLAND Stand up in May and let the rampant lion roar .

115

Kinghorn Boy,

Fife (in my car) 18/02/2007 13:37:46

#104 said

Heres Privacy Internationals main page, go look yourselves http://www.privacyinternational.org/

or here is a link to the actual page

http://tinyurl.com/y7lq6j

you should read it, it's frightening!

116

Dijit,

Glasgow 18/02/2007 13:54:16

You can cut congestion much simplier than road pricing. INCREASE motorway speed limits (70mph was a temp measure during the 73 fuel crisis). DoT figures show speed as a contributary factor in only 2.5% of accidents.
Abolish bus lanes in city centres would nearly double the roads available.
At £1 a mile Glasgow to Machester would cost £420 for the return trip. Glasgow to London would be £840 per return trip.
I predict anarchy on the roads. Already the Police suffer in the publics perception and trust in them as a direct result of motorists being harrassed and treated like criminals. This madness must stop now.

117

Duncan,

Scotland being watched 18/02/2007 13:56:50

This is being driven by vested interests in the surveillance industry who stand to make billions from installation, servicing and contracts for this equipment. These industries have powerful professional lobby consultants working for them. There is also the self interest of jobs for the boys after they have milked their political careers dry.

I think the George Orwell syndrome takes second place to these interests. But given the nature of politics now, and the scare tactics the security services use to get us to accept any law and any intrusion, it all dovetails perfectly together. They have the ball at their feet. Even when they get two million hits on their petition web site, the utterly odious Douglas in Alexanderland still sneers at us, and says he will go ahead.

Once again this nation is being victimised by solutions to London problems, based on computer models that do not apply to the Scottish nation. We are governed by scum and criminal scum at that, get them out.

Vote for the SNP, if for no other reason than to frighten the career politicians who hold the public in such contempt. To allow Labour back into power would be a very frightening scenario that this country should not contemplate. Imagine the boost that would give to the egos of these greedy self serving dictators.

118

Edward,

18/02/2007 14:10:13

The LibDems (not that democratic actually) are so out of touch, first of all the Tax raising powers of Scotland does not extent to excise duty (vehicle or otherwise), nor does it extend to fuel taxes (which is also excise), perhaps Tavish Scott's Labour chums havent actually told him that.
So this latest piece of drivel from the not so democratic LibDems, is the latest wheez to attract voters by blatent lie.The only way Scotland could reduce vehicle excise duty and fuel excise duty is if it were independent or they were given those powers by London, makes you think.

119

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 14:22:55

Comment@13/14 Paid Astro Turfer..Bob10...here a wee five minute vid with pictures(so even YOU can understand) of your real masters mate :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8coxnHKaplk

120

rab, glasgow,

18/02/2007 14:25:54

123. Edward / Well said .The incompetant numpty,s are making fools of themselves with idiotic comments like tavish scotts,then again the fib/dums are full of cr*p.

121

Denis,

18/02/2007 14:37:10

Oh dear oh dear - clearly it's still not understand that if the EU wants vehicle tracking and road pricing, then we will get vehicle tracking and road pricing, and whoever is elected to the euro-regional assembly at Holyrood and forms the Executive they will have no choice in the matter.

After all, that's what they're primarily there for - to carry out the will of the EU without having to go through London, just like the Welsh Assembly, and the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the London Assembly, and the other euro-regional assemblies which were proposed for the rest of England but which are still unelected.

http://www.abd.org.uk/

"Crucial to government plans is the EU's satellite navigation system Galileo. Now you may be wondering why on earth the EU has spent 3–4 billion Euros on a satellite navigation system when we already have one. Ah, but you see it's an American one, and the EU doesn't like that, they're scared (paranoid would be a better word) that the US might turn it off. So the EU has spent all those Euros on something that nobody needs. And now that it has spent all that money, the EU intends to make sure that there is something that Galileo can make money from. And you're it."

But there are some big problems with the plan to use the EU's Galileo satellite system, apparently, as it seems unlikely that they'll be available before 2012, if then. See Christopher Booker, today, for details, including reference to EU Directive 2004/52:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

Hence I suppose the alternative of "gantry-mounted receivers which would 'spy' on cars as they went past".

122

open,

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS 18/02/2007 14:40:41

ALL the political and legal mobsters like Alistair Darling and Douglas Alexander are lackies for the New World Order brigade determined to monitor us all from cradle to grave.

To see LABOUR controlled by an evil b******* like Darling who is a LAWYER to boot tells you how far labour have drifted to the RIGHT.
They obviously get their ideas from the latest book to go on the market.

How to be a successfull tyrant
http://www.tyrantbook.com/

The ideal companion for the secret society mafia who act as an unelected shadow government.

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS

123

CJO,

The Maghreb 18/02/2007 14:44:46

# Jeff - you shouldn't speak about the SNP as a crack pop fringe party. As for me being a Labour voter nothing could ever be further from the truth. I have despised them since I can ever remember, through their irresponsible socialism then have ruined the UK generally and Scotland, through the vagaries of comprehensive education, in particular. I am a Tory by nature - i.e. socially responsible, believing in education for all but not stifling free entreprise under a raft of imbicilic policies. Doling out loot to ever bleeding heart and fringe whinger.

However, as the prospect of Scotland waking up to the realities of the benefits of such policies are nil we need a benevolent despot to run the show and if required, yes, I will take that burden on. Now I can only do this if England jettison Scotland, as most of their population wish to do or Scotland vote for independence which is much more unlikely. (Embarassing for the SNP if Scotland gets the independence the SNP craves not through the good offices of the SNP but because the English are sick of the Scots knackering their country through Mr Broon. What a delicious irony.)

Right back to car ownership, as my car ownership policy is an absolute winner with everyone, and the logic is clearly a stroke of genius, I have come up with a policy for cutting drugs crime, increasing tax revenue, creating jobs (both in Scotland - Europe's favourite opium den and the Third World via a fair trade policy) and ending the war in Afghanistan, all with one piece of legislation and at zero cost to the tax payer. I'll save that one for my manifesto but it is a belter.

124

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 14:50:07

Here is another 5 min vid that joins up some of the dots for people.....glad to see people are waking up :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8LzLRU35CY&mode=relat...=

125

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 18/02/2007 14:51:50

Let them get on with it guys the fib dems are totally shooting themselves in the foot in the run up to this election with their idiotic masterplans. If they and the Labour losers keep up their momentum the elections in the bag for the SNP...

126

Edward,

18/02/2007 14:53:50

#126 That old anti EU nutmeg
Galileo is an enhansed GPS system, which provides better accuracy, its funny though how other EU countries dont see it as a threat as you seem to suggest that we should be concerned. The only concern that we should have is allowing Labour to plough ahead with this wastful project of vehicle tracking. If Scotland was independent (either in or out of the EU) it would not require such a stupid system. The only benifit that Labour's tracking folly is to provide more revenue and nothing else.
Other countries can run there transport structure better than the UK, so really this is anothr reason for pulling out of the UK and Scotland becoming an independent state

127

Neil,

9% Growth Party 18/02/2007 15:05:40

122 "Vote for the SNP, if for no other reason than to frighten the career politicians who hold the public in such contempt"
You think Salmond is that frightened of leaving London?

128

Buckfastleigh,

Car in garage 18/02/2007 15:12:54

Yes he is right. Let him remove the car tax and slash the fuel tax too.

I am strongly in favour of pay as you go on valuable road space. This tax is the only way to discipline congestion in urban and main routes in the UK. Money is needed to pay for alternative bus, tram and rail infrastructures.

I keep my car in the garage and use the bicycle, bus or taxi plus train. No air travel thanks.

But what is the government doing to the railways where they exist? These services are expensive and focussed on serving London. Penzance to Glasgow single is £138 and the fastest direct train takes 11 hours.

Is it not surprising that most people travel unnecesarily by car with these odd policies?

Compare continental travel for instance a similarr distance, London to Marseille, takes 6 hours with the Paris change and is half the cost too.

Ministers are too coy to raise taxes to invest in public services and they are unwilling to admit that the market does not work miracles. We all have to pay our part and if it takes a congestion tax to shake us up, jolly good.

129

Calum Crubag,

18/02/2007 15:18:13

#133 is Nuneaton in Scotland?

This plan sounds fairer. Penalise the 4x4 drivers who plague our roads instead of finding a shrink to deal with their personality problems. Why should those who only drive when then need to pay the same as those too lazy to walk, cycle or use public transport?

130

Courtney,

East Molesey 18/02/2007 15:32:31

More brown-mouthed and stupid nonsense from a vote-gathering attempt by a Scottish MSP who should be put down!

131

Denis,

18/02/2007 15:41:52

# 131 Edward - see eg page 74 of the EU's 2001 Transport White Paper:

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/white_paper/documents/doc/l...

"Systems to locate, identify and monitor vehicles and their loads will become increasingly reliable through the use of information and telecommunication technologies, especially satellite navigation systems (Galileo). Tariff schedules can then be more targeted and be drawn up according to infrastructure category (national, international) and use (distance travelled, length of time used). Other objective factors can also be taken into account, e.g. vehicle category (environmental performance, factors influencing infrastructure deterioration, even the loading ratio), level of congestion (period of the day, week or year) and location (urban, suburban, interurban or rural)."

Or, if you prefer, just pretend that this has nothing to do with the EU, and that an "independent" Scotland within the EU could do whatever it wanted.

132

Buckfastleigh,

18/02/2007 15:58:59

138# The alternative we have been using for some time is the US military GIS system. Again if you want to depend even more on the US military for such systems good for you.

Just remember what happened in 1953 when the Larne to Belfast ferry was lost with most of its crew and the majority of its passenges (including the women and Children) just because the precise position could not be calculated in time.

Perhaps the alternative system of having manned toll boths is more appealing to you, after all this is the French and Italian system. Seems rather wasteful to me.

133

Denis,

18/02/2007 16:11:07

That's hardly the point, Buckfastleigh - the point is that the EU wants it, so even an independent Scotland within the EU would have to have it, and it would make no difference who was elected to the Scottish Parliament.

134

Edward,

18/02/2007 16:13:00

#138 Denis
That Transport paper is quite interesting, but it pays not to cherry pick to fit an arguement.
The paper covers all aspects of transport, with the aim of imroving the transport users lot. It is obvious that Labour also cherry picked from this paper!
If you read from Page 70, you will see that one of the aims is to provide better information to the driver, in much the same way as current GPS systems do, in advising congestion ahead situations.
It is also to help with vehicl speed management on motorways, which aims to have rapid assesment of traffic and variable speed limiting (such as is in force on the M25).
Page 70 states ‘The most promising prospects here are offered by new technologies that can determine optimum speed at any moment with reference to traffic conditions, road features and external conditions (such as weather) and pass the information on to the drivers by way of information display boards or on-board communication systems. Road vehicles throughout the (European)Union need to be equipped with these technologies as soon as possible, and information systems made available to everyone’
Page 74 deals with emissions and polutions, with emphasis on road haulage
It is the Labour government that are twisting this, to suite there needs to raise even more tax and to justify it by playing the co2 emissions card. According to what the EU white paper is stating, the road usage tax is aimed at high congestion areas and specifically road haulage within those high congestion areas (something that labour have conveniently missed out) so an area such as the hughland and islands, where theres isnt really much in the way of congestion, it shouldnt be effected
But on high density urban routes it would affect by trying to get the trucks of the road

135

sick of it all,

coma ward 18/02/2007 16:17:24

As has already been stated, Scotland does not have a big congestion problem. The main routes are full at rush hour and empty the rest of the time. Instead of building trunk roads capable of handling the traffic required in a modern civilisation - at least 3 lane wide motorways - those in charge have diverted the tax money raised from the motorist to fund other pet projects and left the roads to rot. Now, suddenly, they've noticed that they are falling apart and not big enough. How happy they must have been to realise they could claim environmental reasons for taxing people off the road. The issue could then be tagged on to carbon emissions ‘we want to justify building nuclear power stations’ bandwagon. Lorries should use the roads at night when they won’t screw the traffic up for everyone else and JCB type diggers should be banned from driving on main roads as they are on the continent. Changing the council budget system would also help since departments dig up the road to justify their next year’s allocation and leave it coned-off with nothing happening. Politicians will find that almost everyone who has a vote also has a car so I cannot see how these politicians think this is a vote-winner. People do not sit in traffic jams because they enjoy it or because they have a choice. Those who think public transport can replace the car are mistaken as the services that cover peek hours are already full. The population is declining and you can only drive one car at once so this is about as bad as it will get.

136

Edward,

18/02/2007 16:21:30

#140 Denis
Your also missing the point
The white paper is a consultive document, EU members can utilise what it states or not, in accordance with there own requirements.
The aim of road chargeing is actually mainly aime at countries with toll roads, the aim being that it would do away with toll plaza's, which can in some places get congested at peak times, so the aim is to keep traffic flowing, but still paying the toll without slowing down and stopping to do so.
In Portugal they have at the moment a system called Via Verde, which consists of a small box, the size of a large matchbox, stuck on the inside of the windscreen, this identifies the car, when going through each toll plaza (on the designated lane) and automatically debits the toll from the users account (which can be paid and /or toped up at any atm). They have had this for a few years, the EU suggestion is a way of extending this, so it does away with the booths altogether

137

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 16:22:44

My mum told me never to trust men with beards.

Looks like she was right.

138

Non!!,

East Britaiin 18/02/2007 16:24:26

How to cut road traffic by 50% at 0 cost??

Even registration numbers and odd registration numbers on the road on alternate days. Offenders have their cars taken to the crusher!

Think about it. you know it makes sense!!!

139

Buckfastleigh,

18/02/2007 16:24:36

#140.
No one compels you, or anyone or intitution in Scotland or elsewhere to use this GIS system; but why not use it if it's useful.

If I see a bus pulling up at the roadside and it's the one that goes in my direction , I use it and have no ideological hang ups.

As I said it's either the US military or the EU system we have all paid for civilian use.

As a system of navigation, if you are into these things, for instance as a shipper, if you had goods on the "Napoli" you would have known in real time where your particular container was!

140

Edward,

18/02/2007 16:27:21

#140 The other point of the eu white paper is to harmonise fuel excise, which is as we know more expensive in the UK compared with other EU countries, the aim of road charging is to do away with fuel excise and have a uniform tax regime.

On the point of excise, as mentioned earlier, excise, fuel, car or otherwise is NOT in the remit of the Scottish Executive as its not a devolved power, so what that idiot Tavish Scott is saying is complete garbage!

141

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 18/02/2007 16:30:37

First these politicians create a totally unbalanced country and then they tax you on what is basically trying to balance on an imbalance.

Up until 3 weeks ago I was driving into Glasgow from Stenhousemuir and both sides of the dual-carraigeway were filled with commuters. Does that not tell its own story? I'm commuting to your town and you're commuting to mine. Can there not be a jobswapshop.com?

There is no doubt centralisation is the main culprit here along with Executive failure to invest meaningfully outwith the environs of both ends of the M8

My job is transient by nature, a couple or more of weeks here and there, but you get to recognise the cyclical patterns of each route you take.

Taxing motorists even more and monitoring their driving patterns with black boxes must be the most ludicrous attempt of covering up mucklemismanagement I have ever seen. They are blaming us for their inferior input as elected representatives.

Can you imagine the scenario at Tavish House? forlibandlibandlib!
forlibandlibandlib!
Mr Tavish, that road's getting popular, shall we up the price a tad?
No, laddie, up it a lot. forlibandlibandlib.

142

,

18/02/2007 16:44:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
143

Frodo the Scot,

middle earth 18/02/2007 16:54:49

SCOTTISH ministers are planning to scrap car tax and cut fuel duty to sweeten the pill of a new road toll scheme.

Doesn't anybody smell a rat here? Replace the last 4 words with new HIGHER TAX scheme

144

Discretionpvs,

Ontario, Canada 18/02/2007 16:55:09

Post 115--I don't too often agree with our southern neighbours, but here we are in accord. As one who generally drives 2,000-3,000miles while in Scotland (all north of the border), good roads, bad roads, M8 and cowpaths (have yet to put a mark on a rental car) I shudder to think what that tax/toll proposal would do to my budget. It would certainly exceed even Air Canada's exorbitant rates for Toronto to Glasgow for two p[eople. I'll not make any comment on how to improve your road structures, since I am not one of you. That is YOUR problem. I just don't want to increase my expenses while over there.

145

Denis,

18/02/2007 16:57:21

# 141 and 143 Edward - of course it covers all aspects of transport: that's why it's entitled "European transport policy for 2010: time to decide" and is 124 pages long. Quoting a passage which relates specifically to vehicle tracking and road pricing is not "cherry-picking", it's simply presenting an excerpt which is relevant to the subject under debate. It's a White Paper, which is one stage along from a Green Paper and as I understand usually paves the way for legislation, and I guess that one part of the legislation is the EU Directive 2004/52 referred to by Christopher Booker today.

146

Mike1,

Midlands 18/02/2007 17:00:00

Look at the enormous mileage done by some of our political servants, and they claim payment for doing these miles. Of course, they suggest that we pay if we need to use our cars!!

147

morris,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 17:06:22

144
Absolutely correct Graham,and be aware of women with beards also, and while we are on the subject men who have grey hair but black eyebrows,especially when they answer to Darling!

148

Edward,

18/02/2007 17:23:49

The article by Scotland on Sunday is really a non story as there is no way that Tavish Scott or anyone elected to the Scottish Executive can make wild promises of reducing Excise, as excise simply is not part of the remit of the Scottish Executive, or has no one actually noticed that?

149

JG,

Fife 18/02/2007 17:24:12

#154 mikiwud
Someone earlier in the comments board worked it out to around £17.50 a gallon!!!!!!!

150

Edward,

18/02/2007 17:29:36

#154 all very nice, but hate to p*ss on your parade, but this debate is about Tavish Scott making wild promises to the electorate of Scotland, stating that he would abolish vehicle excise and reduce fuel excise. Either he is not all there, or is unaware that exise is not under the control of the Scottish Executive
If Scotland became Independent, then that would be another matter, but in order for that to happen the undomcratic LibDems would be supporting a referendum on the Independence question

151

Alistair Stewart,

www.snp2007.co.uk 18/02/2007 17:35:36

#128

Oh a delusional Tory you are ... what/who is the imaginary manifesto in yer heid??

The Tories are a force long gone in Scotland and thank goodness - most Scots want as little to do with Engerlandshire as possible. Least of all the leech of a Queen and her hangers on ...

An Independent and Proud Scotland divorced from a decaying England. - Ill vote for that :-)

152

Attila the nun,

South of the Border 18/02/2007 17:38:39

Question for the future:

If I buy a cheap s/h car - register it to: Mr Tony Blair c/o 10 Downing Street, London, run it for a few weeks clocking up a couple of thousand pounds worth of tax, then drop it off near his house and give the copper on the door the keys - Have I done anything illegal in giving him a gift?

153

CJO,

The Maghreb 18/02/2007 18:05:05

Dear oh dear, Jeff #158, such bile and vitriol just because someone has a different view point from you. How very intemperate. Is this what is to be expected in your Independent and Proud Scotland.

154

Sambo,

The deep south 18/02/2007 18:39:42

Question, how would that affect the tourists that flock here by the millions and rent the cars?

155

Licking my wounds,

ex pat, now in California, USA 18/02/2007 19:00:46

Stand and be counted. Our nation invented the modern world; now look at us being laughed at by the world for allowing England to walk over us.
Having run a business in my home in Scotland, been screwed to the ground by various excessive taxes and now filing for bankruptcy, I find myself so glad to be out of the rat race that has become so acceptable to the masses of my nation and suburb of Engloeuroland. Why cant people vote anymore. Get rid of these leeches that care not about the consequences of their actions on the country or our people. At the current rate of taxation acceleration there will be no one but rich foreigners using holiday homes and the natives will be treated as they were 6 centuries ago.

156

Edward,

18/02/2007 19:01:16

#161 Basically Scotland would see the number of tourists that rent cars drop, like the proverbial brick
So thanks to Labour and Libdems, Scotland would be screwed, so whats new!

157

Licking my wounds,

ex pat, now in California, USA 18/02/2007 19:05:19

Every time road transport costs are interfered with, the consumer pays for it.

As always the testing groung is my land, Scotland.

The testing ground should be where the majority of population is, England.

158

Enster Buddy,

Fife 18/02/2007 19:08:36

Looks like Fife draws the short straw again! road pricing plus bridge tolls. The robbin B's must really hate us in Fife. roll on the elections!

159

SorenB,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 19:13:13

#164 Your land? Your land (the land you now live in) is now the biggest boil on the planet. A dangerous dictatorship propelling us all towards inevitable oblivion. Thanks for your advice but its pretty meaningless. Especially as the rest of us here have to live here and get on with it. Less cars equals less problems. Pretty simple maths in my book.

160

Enster Buddy,

Fife 18/02/2007 19:15:14

163. you got it in one! But that is what england wants, so that the monied few south of the border, can have our land ethnically cleansed, to use it as their playground. Land of fun for them, & chelsey tractors justified, because of the bad road up here!

161

Chikderic,

Inverness 18/02/2007 19:28:31

#163 Tourism will soon be doomed if the Executive go ahead with all the heavily subsidised wind farms proposed. Just how has Scotland landed itself with the worst parliament in Western Europe?

162

JayJay,

Glasgow - ish 18/02/2007 19:30:57

Tavish you are an arse.
I read today about a train in France travelling at 313mph. Would that we even aspired to trains travelling at 100mph in this banana republic.
Where has all my money gone? Despite fuel tax effectively pricing the roads (drive more, pay more), this bearded gonk is seriously suggesting that we need to be taxed in a different way.
Tavish, there is a reason why people sit in their cars on the M8 every day. If you happen to work in a place like East Kilbride, or Bellshill, best of luck with the public transport. In many cases, there ain't any. There is a reason why people drive between Glasgow and Edinburgh. The Scotrail service is shoite and expensive. Plus, despite building a train station at one of the biggest employment locations in Edinburgh, we contrive NOT to allow the Glasgow Edinburgh service to stop there. You couldn't make this stuff up.
You put public transport into private hands, make it hideously expensive to travel on the most popular routes, then complain that people "just won't get out of their cars". Since MSPs are so good at travelling themselves, take a trip to Berlin or Barcelona, or some other major European city to see how its done. You give people cheap, clean, efficient public transport and they'll use it. Charge them £16.90 Glasgow Edinburgh, and they will fire up the car.
Are they really going to charge us for a two-lane M8? A nonsensical A9, that is not only antiquated, but dangerous. A work colleague of mine from London, exposed to the Glasgow to Edinburgh drive, told me that people in London would not tolerate such an appalling link between two major cities. He thought it was a B road!
I am heart sick of these buffoons. The tax take is at an all time high, and they are still at it, with "the environment" the latest utter wheeze to fall into their laps. Perhaps we should just hand over all our salaries and let them get on with it. Pretty soon, the onl

163

Denis,

18/02/2007 19:46:42

# 167 Enster Buddy, how can you know with such certainty "that is what england wants"? 1,579,296 people have now signed this petition:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Scrap the planned vehicle tracking and road pricing policy"

None of those live in England, then? Or perhaps all of them are part of a gigantic conspiracy to have Scotland ethnically cleansed by the punitive treatment of its motorists?

It's gone up to 1,580,245 while I've typed this - the deadline for signing is Tuesday.

164

Sambo,

The deep south 18/02/2007 19:55:53

Is it just me, or has anybody noticed how unintellegent Tavis Scott looks?

165

Sambo,

The deep south 18/02/2007 19:57:18

Excuse me, that's wee pretendy minister Tavish Scott.

166

plord,

edinburgh 18/02/2007 20:03:10

do we get 3 lane motorways?

167

SouthernSkye,

Currently Cologne 18/02/2007 20:11:25

HMG try to use common sense, technology is not the answer.
Here's a few thoughts, perhaps others will be able to add to/refine these simple common sense ideas....

Dear HMG,
Please, for a moment, try to put aside your fetish for techno-solutions and, for once in your lives, try applying some common sense in the search for a resolution.
I implore you to consider the following to reduce road congestion and make all our lives greener due to the resulting free flow of the remaining traffic;

1 - Reduce the number of HGV on the roads by moving freight by rail for the long-haul part of the journey within UK bondaries.
1a - Further reduce the number of HGV required by using coastal shipping to move freight (we are an island, let's use that to our advantage).

2 - Change the loading/unloading times in city centres, large supermarkets and other premises where vehicular deliveries are required to to be from 10pm to 6am.

3 - Impose a fuel duty reduction (or tax incentive of some sort) for ALL HGV on the road between 10pm and 6am. The chance to boost profits will encourage hauliers to use the quiet part of the day, through the night, until early morning thus freeing up the roads for non goods traffic during the day time.

4 - Allow powered 2-wheelers (P2W) to use bus lanes throughout the UK at all times. They are faster than pedal-cycles so should not slow the busses and take up far less space than a car.


5 - Open all hard shoulders for traffic when conditions allow (just as the Dutch do) and rigidly enforce lane discipline on motorways (not speed) with increased traffic-police presence (not cameras).

6 - Re-open inland waterways for goods transport.
Canary Wharf used to be able to handle goods coming straight up the Thames and into the city. Now they are road transported from Dover/south coast ports!

CST. Common Sense Transport.
Let's have some !

168

Robbie,

18/02/2007 20:20:15

9. Navvy Pure Brilliance, Tavish!
What about Wisnaeme #7 excellent comment about imports to Scotland?

169

Auckland Arab,

New Zealand 18/02/2007 20:25:10

Democracy (literally "rule by the people", from the Greek demos, "people," and kratos, "rule"). Government by the people for the people.

What we have now is something other than that. We have the bizarre views of an extreme minority being imposed on the majority, whatever their objections. Global warming will be resolved by a move away from fossil fuels, hybrid cars, nuclear and solar power and many other initiatives. It will not be solved by punitive and arbitrary taxes that do not command popular support. Lots of other comments have made this point – if you want people to leave their cars at home – then PROVIDE CHEAP AND RELIABLE PUBLIC TRANSPORT !

How total Muppets like Tavish ever get into positions of power is beyond me. This is what happens when normal sane people abdicate their responsibilities and leave politics to extremists. This is the inevitable result of the political apathy in this country – so don’t be too surprised when tree huggers like this (he even looks like one) are lecturing us on our wicked ways. What we need to do is very clear – vote this bunch out of power for ever and take those bleeding hearts the Lib Dems with you.

170

Sambo,

The deep south 18/02/2007 20:26:15

SouthernSkye, you should be up there in Holyrood instead of Minister Scott. Why doesn't the Scottish parliament think through things better before they attempt to pass laws.
I'll bet they havn't even thought about the proposils you have suggested.

171

Robbie,

18/02/2007 20:28:22

16. Is it only me?, Azerbaijan
“ Emigrate while you can.”
It use to cost £10.00 YES TEN POUNDS to emigrate to Aussie (my destination before NZ) and you could chuck your job in the morning and get another in the ‘arvo‘.
May I ask anyone what they believe the emigration rate would be if those fares still existed?

172

SorenB,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 20:31:27

#16 Obviously the comments of a madman. Better off away from normal society.

173

Robbie,

NZ 18/02/2007 20:36:29

Not familiar with your road charges but if a toll per mile is enforced then this would have to be such a regressive tax that at last many Labour supporters would have their eyes opened. The ultra rich would love this - clear the roads of the plebeians and leave open empty highways for their Bentleys and Rolls.

174

Biker,

Ayr 18/02/2007 20:41:29

Tavish Scott. You are another overpaid idiot attempting to get your name in the history books. Have you actually considered the cost to the country? How will it affect people like myself who constantly have to travel south of the Border (as well as the whole of Scotland). Your proposals are weak, ill considered, and frankly Stupid. This is not what the Scottish Parliment was formed to do. Penalising people more and more will only isolate you and your frankly barmy crew even more. Vote this idiot out.

175

open,

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS 18/02/2007 20:47:09

NWO monitoring now superceded with

RFID Powder chip smallest in world

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LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS

176

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

18/02/2007 20:48:32

Heres more of what Labour want to do enslave us......this is the reality of Labour http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=CYK...

177

jdships,

18/02/2007 21:01:42

110 Southern Skye

Do you not think that, using Tesco in Dingwall as an example, goods could be shipped into the firth of forth, then rail to Inverness and onto Dingwall. Then locally 'hauled' to their final destination is a better option that lots of trucks travelling up from (for example) Dover?

I worked in management for a large food industry company in their road haulage dep't from 1967 to 1997 and can assure you this is a "hoary old chestnut".
If I had a tenner for evry meeting/seminar I have attended on this subject I would be quite well off.
Many problems stem from the customer who "requires" his/her goods at a time to suit them
You speak of delivering between 10.00pm and 06.00a.m.
The big stumbling block there has always been and still is that Local Councils will not allow firms to deliver within those hours for "social reasons "

For example : we tried to deliver to a food factory in a west of Scotland town at 07.00 . We were required to submit in writing a request , wait a week for a reply then attend two meetings to discuss the situation. The outcome being the application was turned down on "social grounds " !!
Re Tesco ( I did not work for them)
They intiated a rail delivery service from the Livingston Depot to Inverness/Dingwall . Railways let them down so often it was abandoned.

Back to the drawing board for you methinks

The cause of road congestion is you, me and half a million others being creatures of habit re using a car not a few hundred lorries delivering goods
Has Tavish "The Great" ever thought of asking why people use their cars to travel to work - doubt it

178

robbie runciman,

Lydd 18/02/2007 21:04:30

I cycled along a road today with little traffic on it, when I did see a car, it was 3/4 empty!

Are die hard motorists morons, do they really believe that a quart really can go into a pint. Choices have a cost, the current system is a poll tax on those of us who make sensible choices about our travel. I know

Personally, as car driver (who lives a mile from a bus stop) I think i qualify as someone who needs to own a car. However, i am still able to use my cycle and trains for journeys where the car is less useful (ie a surprising number). this 'need to use a car arguement' totted out by people is mostly balderdash, I have colleagues who work in london and say that they 'need' a car, why i ask? oh, there are not enough buses or they live a street away from a bus stop. The real answer is, they want a car for ego and until they abolish the current poll tax, they will not understand that choices have responsibilities.

I favour the RAC suggestion that it should be 'optional' with incentives and rebates for those that take part. I also think that it should be applied where there are problems (ie most of out towns and Cities) and not in places like the countryside, where there are no options.

I wonder how it is the many countries in the EU have more car ownership, but people use there car less - I guess they must be smarter than people here?

Perhaps the DfT should gather these 1.3m peoples name and ensure that they target where they live, when they need to widen or build new roads!

179

Sambo,

The deep south 18/02/2007 21:05:46

The Forth and Clyde canal would be an excellent mode of transportation, maybe not each way for barge traffic. This canal was upgraded from lottery money, money you won't be seeing much of in the future because of the London Olympics.

180

CJO,

The Maghreb 18/02/2007 21:14:47

I live in Tunis, Kincardineshire and London. Local transport in Tunis is significantly better at serving public need than Scotland, albeit like Scotland, the routes are only from population centre to population centre. It gets heavily used because not everyone can afford a car.

In Kincardineshire, to collect my son from his train home from school every second weekend takes a 1 hour round trip, minimum. There is no public transport alternative.

In London, my family stayed in my rented apartment and couldn't believe how easy and cheap it was to get round. This included my elderly and infirmed in-laws and they were born there but moved out 40 years ago to Sussex.

181

CJO,

The Maghreb 18/02/2007 21:18:28

And another thing! Tavish Scott is the same minister that over saw the routing of the Aberdeen WPR so that it wouldn't cause too much inconvenience to Nicol Stephen's constituency then forgot to add the VAT to his sums leaving him woefully short of loot for building the road.

Well played, Tavish!

182

Auckland Arab,

Auckland, New Zealand 18/02/2007 22:11:07

#188

In the fantasy world that Tavish inhabits, all currency has been abolished and bartering has been re-introduced as the principal form of trade.

He probably got his "Finance" degree from the same place as the current Scottish Finance Minister......... (note the sarcasm)

183

Miss Jean Brodie,

18/02/2007 22:19:16

Tavish Scott said last week he wanted things to happen "more quickly" in Scotland, criticising the "glacial" progress of the plans in the UK

another comment to prop up the Independence argument tho - all the way - time to take over our affairs and become closer to a democracy - similar to that of the swiss - where all people get to vote on near all proposals! - It’s time indead!

184

The Guzz,

Fife 18/02/2007 22:39:22

I believe that Scottwebb is not too far off the mark with his posts. It is not only going to be the cost to some road users that will be exorbitant but the invasion of everybody’s personal privacy and human rights. I signed the petition because in my opinion, the ‘only’ way the journeys could be fairly monitored for everyone using the roads would also promote this government’s obsession to have total control on the population of Britain. The intention is to have GPS tracking devices fitted to every vehicle and this would be at the individuals’ expense. (Much in line with the National ID Card and with a linked purpose.) It may be promoted as a road congestion policy but the end result of its implication is far more sinister. No doubt high tech cameras that can record images clearly enough to identify the driver and check the road tax disc of vehicles will be more common place on many roads. Scrapping the road tax fund is indeed no more than an inducement to fall into line and wouldn’t be considered unless the alternative was guaranteed to make even more money. Add this to the fact that Britain already has more CCTV cameras installed than any other country in Europe and the US and Scotland has a higher proportion per head than the rest of the UK. What has happened to our civil liberties and our human right to freedom of movement? We may not be physically restricted ‘yet’ but they know where we are and what we are doing. Big Brother is definitely watching more and more. Let us hope that with independence we will see some of our freedoms restored by a less autocratic government; who will listen to and fight for the best for the people of Scotland. It’s Time.

185

HUGH JAMPTON,

18/02/2007 22:54:45

##48
Sorry to spoil you'r day BUT the car ferry from Portsmouth to the Isle OF Wight IS the dearest ferry per mile in the WORLD!!!
This "tax" is just another rip off by the selfstyled "upper" class, The fairest way to tax a vehicle would be to base it on the actual sqare footage of road it occupied.
BUT I would like to know what right the government has to apply this "tax" anyway, When I and all my older relations started driving we paid a ROAD TAX which actually DID pay for the roads to be built, so therefore I query the governments right to tax me and them to drive on roads we've already paid for. please do NOT mention maintainance, my reply to that is WHAT maintainance.
The reason the tax was turned into a "road fund" license payable to the customs and excise is that the pot robbers ( the exchequer) "borrowed" so much from the fund that they could not afford to pay it back. so basically they re-named it and nationalised it

186

John2,

Kent 18/02/2007 23:01:07

Did you know that as well as the plans to make us "pay as we drive" MP's are in the middle of excuding themselves from the Freedom of Information Act in order to ensure that the rest of us no longer have the opportunity to find out what expenses they claim, including "mileage allowance" for their vehicles ? 40p per mile, up to 10,000 miles and then 25p per mile after 10,000 miles. One MP claimed for mileage that was greater than the distance to the moon ! !

Average total expenses claimed by UK MP's was £131,000. This was in addition to salary and pension. Top claimer was Eric Joyce (Falkirk) with £174,811, Alistair Carmichael 2nd £161,815, with Alex Salmond 5th with £157,844.

No wonder they want exemption from the Freedom of Information Act.

187

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 18/02/2007 23:07:30

There are FAR too many cars on the road ... one way to get rid of some of them is to price some folk out of independent travel ... another way would be to resrict car ownership to people who really need cars ... like applying for a gun if you can't prove you REALLY need it you can't have one ...

Sod the tolls .. I think we should shaft the government by bringing horses into town instead ....

188

Auckland Arab,

New Zealand 18/02/2007 23:10:41

One more point about Democracy.

When did all these crazy ideas get put in the election manifesto ? I like the Swiss idea mentioned above. The rule should be that unless its in the manifesto, it needs to be approved by public vote. That would stop all this under the radar policy stuff that we never hear about at election time. Then we are told to swallow it as its for our own good. Our politicians have forgotten that they are there to represent the views of the people NOT to impose their views on the people, in some misguided view that they should lead the debate. This whole transport arguement has been totally hi-jacked by the anti-car lobby. Well cars can uninvented and unless REAL money is spent on alternatives, a stick only approach is doomed to fail.

189

Auckland Arab,

New Zealand 18/02/2007 23:13:10

#194

Funny guy. You can start then by giving up your car. No doubt you have a broom stick in the cupboard anyway.

190

Alistair Stewart,

18/02/2007 23:50:52

Dear oh dear, indeed #160,

Whenever a Unionist subservient Tory runs out of an intelligent reply it resorts to lame attempts to denegrate the other persons opinion as bile and vitriol

As you rightly say just because someone has a different view point from YOU.

How very intemperate YOU ARE.

I am sure many Scots are of the OPINION that the Queen is a leech.

An Independent and Proud Scotland need not to rely on England nor need it indulge in a sycophantic irrelevant collection of spongers - like a poorly rated soap - The Royal family have had their day.

Both they and the Tories should concentrate on their home turf (England) where their are still enough people who believe they still have a place in their lives.

191

car road tolls,

scotland car road tolls 19/02/2007 00:01:04

i think this road toll charging is the most stupidist idea the goverment have came up with as the roads will be empty as no one will be able to travel cause of low paid jobs and the elderly cant afoard it. is that all the goverment can do is cash in on people with motors

192

Edward,

19/02/2007 00:45:02

In 73 days time Tavish Scott and the rest of the undemocratic LibDem and Labour muppets will get voted back in...unless of course the voters decide otherwise, the choice is yours Scotland

193

Auckland Arab,

Auckland, New Zealand 19/02/2007 00:51:19

Do you have to have a "weird" christian name to make the Lib Dems front bench ? Tavish, Nicol, Menzies - these guys must have had a really hard time at school.

Waiting for Hamish MacBeth to make an appearance !

194

bill inch,

edinburgh 19/02/2007 01:57:49

Tavish Scott is his intention to make all of the people in to suffer because of the name his parent's gave him

195

RCG,

Falkirk 19/02/2007 06:38:44

Leave all his for a better place
www.youscotland.com

It's where it's happening, now!

196

Licking my wounds,

19/02/2007 08:01:07

#166
I used to think so untill ~I travelled and seen for myself, rather than listening to second and third generation 'fibs' from the press.
I am in the US now and this state of california has many many more ways that is better than the propaganda that I used to believe. This country is so big that Scotland can fit into it more than 100 times. Each state is bigger than most European countries, an opinion is very divided, as is opinion in Scotland or the UK.
Travel is the best educator. And you can live where you choose to, I did.

197

Auckland Arab,

New Zealand 19/02/2007 08:01:20

#203

It will be Nicol Stephens and McConnell in rehab after May, not Robbie !

198

Neil,

9% Growth Party 19/02/2007 12:25:42

Strangely enough the LibDems, at last years conference had 2 separate motions on the idea of cutting the speed limit to 20 MPH in inhabited areas, not for safety, but purely in the hope that it would force us to use bicycles.

I wonder if Tavish will be mentioning that or putting it in their manifesto?

199

SorenB,

Edinburgh 19/02/2007 20:16:15

#204 Well even more pearls of wisdom. You never fail to entertain. Also you never fail to be so far off the mark as to be untrue. I listen to myself and use my eyes. I have been to the good old USA a number of times and frankly dislike it and all it stands for. So that’s my opinion. One founded as you put it, on travel as the best educator. Big states and vast land mass a good country do not make. Americans are ill educated for the most part and no nothing of life outside of their small sphere of existence. I will take Europe any day. You stick to the crumbling dinosaur of a dictatorship that you have chosen. A country that is reminiscent of the Roman Empire in its twilight years of totalitarian warmongering obscenity. If that’s your concept of utopia, then may your god protect you.

200

John from Aberdeen,

Hastings in the sunny south 19/02/2007 23:24:52

Jeeez, let's just get this shower of a Government out!!! As someone said yesterday from the Orkneys, surely to goodness, no-one will vote to re-elect this new labour lot after this proposed road fund scandal. And for heaven's sake, they are wasting millions (of tax payers money) on these proposals that will never go anywhere in any case! ...we hope!!!


 

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