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SNP to ditch £2,000 graduate tax

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Published Date: 10 June 2007
SCOTTISH National Party ministers are set to scrap the £2,000 graduate tax this week and meet the £20m annual cost from government coffers.
Education Secretary Fiona Hyslop is expected to announce to Parliament on Wednesday that the Graduate Endowment Scheme will be dumped, honouring a key election pledge.

But more costly Nationalist plans to replace student loans with grants are not
expected to be rolled out immediately, in a move which looks set to trigger a fresh row with opposition parties who claim the SNP's "populist" election pledges are too expensive to implement.

The Graduate Endowment Scheme, introduced by the previous Lib-Lab coalition saw students pay funds into a central pot which was then used to pay bursaries to poorer students.

The scheme is easily affordable, but the pledge to replace student loans with grants is far more expensive, costed by the SNP at £100m a year.

Ministers are now expected to wait until after the UK Treasury sets the Scottish Executive's budgets later this autumn, before launching the plan.

The new education secretary met university funding chiefs last week to set out her plans.

She has insisted that the vast sums she intends to invest in helping students will not have an impact on the funding of Scotland's universities, which say they need an extra £168m a year in order to keep pace with universities in England.

However, there are growing fears there will not be enough cash to ditch the endowment, scrap loans and boost funds all at the same time.

The concerns come with English universities now drawing in extra income from the yearly £3,000 tuition fee, a figure likely to increase soon once the cap on the fee is lifted.

Labour's former higher education minister, Allan Wilson, claimed the SNP would not be able to afford to scrap student loans. "It was an election bribe that they will not be able to deliver on," he said.

Labour's education spokesman, Hugh Henry, added: "They haven't costed this properly and it may take money from direct investment in the university sector. But they must be held accountable for the decisions that got them into power."

Dr Brian Lang, principal of the University of St Andrews, said: "We need to ensure that we are encouraging students to come to universities that are first-class. We should not be asking them to come to universities that are less than excellent. We need to have a complete review, not just of student funding, but we need to take a more complete view of what universities are for.

"The minister has sketched out the plans on cancelling student debt. She knows what she is talking about but I don't want her just to focus on that, but also on how we can continue to have good research carried out at our universities," he added.

While the universities say they will be content with an extra £168m, there are other claims that more cash will be needed if a funding gap between England and Scotland is not to open up.

Wilson also claimed that, while still in office, Scottish Executive officials had calculated that universities would need an extra £550m over the next three years - around £200m more than previously claimed.

A spokeswoman for the Scottish Executive said that all details for the government's plans on student finance would have to wait until the minister's statement on Wednesday.



Page 1 of 1

 
1

I'm no really here,

09/06/2007 23:29:50

"Labour's former higher education minister, Allan Wilson, claimed the SNP would not be able to afford to scrap student loans. "It was an election bribe that they will not be able to deliver on," he said."

Well, I bet he's glad he didn't get back in power with all the election bribes that Labour came up with.

2

buzzer,

09/06/2007 23:48:31

Perhaps the money we save from not participating in nuclear warheads or illegal wars will see us in good stead and keep nutters such as Alan Wilson etc quiet.

3

Darryl Matheson,

10/06/2007 00:46:59

Why are the SNP making it easy for the opposition parties, when this all goes wrong Salmond won't be able to blame westminister.

4

MadJockMacMad,

Edinburgh 10/06/2007 01:44:43

This is what it is all about

Ministers are now expected to wait until after the UK Treasury sets the Scottish Executive's budgets later this autumn, before launching the plan.

In other words what is dad going to let us do.

jack always new what dad was letting him do, mainly because jack didnt do anything he wasn't allowed to but now we have a different party in power it isn't going to work.

We will not control our services until we are independant this proves it

5

Gregorf,

Edinburgh University - The truth please? 10/06/2007 01:49:16

Why do we have to positively discriminate to get Scottish people into Edinburgh University?

I know that they were investigated, and it was found that the admissions policy had been found to have been proactively racist against admitting Scots, to the extent that less than 1% who attended were Scottish.

I can't wait for a further investigation prior to the next election.

6

Gregorf,

Subcontracting out an OIL Economy gives you 10/06/2007 01:55:10

It's because of this absurdity that Scotland has:

1. The highest incidence of CHILD poverty in Europe.
2. Lowest standard of living in Western Europe
3. Lowest life expectancy in the EU 4. Highest incidence of violent crime in the developed world.

WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR SOLELY SUPPLYING THE SECOND LARGEST CONSUMER OF OIL ON THE PLANET - AND THIS IS WHAT WE GET.

7

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 10/06/2007 07:09:52

Here's the deal - it's simple!

1/ SNP produce manifesto.

2/ They are voted into power.

3/ They honour their manifesto.

Perhaps it is No 3 which the New Blabber party cannot understand?

Yours etc

Angus Whitton

8

williamx,

Delta, Canada 10/06/2007 07:13:36

Easy solution. Close down enough Scottish "Universities" to reduce the cost of student loans by reducing the number of students. For instance the recently published origin of students at St Andrews was 30% Scots, 30% English and 40% foreign. This is obviously a university that only needs funding for 30% of its student body from the Scottish tax payer. Dr Lang the Principal of St Andrews is always in the news with comments that funding should be increased as the University educates the future heads of Scottish industry and politicians. I assume that only 30% of the student body will perform that function as the non Scots go home to their own countries.

9

mr angry,

ayrshire 10/06/2007 07:25:57

#8 Thicko , the point is we should be a rich country , our money is going down the drain and we have conditions similar to a 3 rd world country, is that clear enough.

10

Kenny A,

10/06/2007 07:32:41

#7 Gregof

Seen similar post before but where does the highest incidence of violent crim statistic come from.

South Africa and the States are developed countries for example, and it is a sight more dodgy there. Also look at England and the murders going on there.

Even France is worse than Scotland, sorry to harp on about it but is it the central belt you are refering to or Scotland as a whole. The North and Islands have very little crime in general.

11

Kenny A,

10/06/2007 07:35:04

#10 William

Most of the Scots students will probably go abroad anyway as little prospects in Scotland, saying that many forign students will remain in Scotland as more prospects here for them, Bit of a paradox.

12

St Andrews Jock,

Englandshire 10/06/2007 08:48:40

The Graduate Endowment Scheme, introduced by the previous Lib-Lab coalition, was the result of the Liberal Party compromising its pre-election promise to abolish student fees. Faced with the reality of power and a coalition, such a compromise was pragmatic and acceptable, but the subterfuge of replacing fees with a ‘Graduate Endowment’ and pretending a pre-election promise had been kept was not. Pragmatic but perhaps like claiming to have abolished hanging while in an aside agreeing to introduce death by lethal injection.

13

janis,

London 10/06/2007 08:53:26

Sunday Times today...... British taxpayers to meet £2bn cost of reintroducing free university education in Scotland. English & Welsh students will still have to pay full fees.

Last year the SNP pledged to scrap tuition fees for English students in Scottish Unis. On Wednesday the new Scottish education secretary is expected to announce she has abandoned that promise.

Ah well! our 4th & last kid isn't after a place at St Andrews anyway.

14

Steven M.,

check your facts 10/06/2007 09:06:17

#7 Since when did Scotland "solely" supply China with oil??? We don't even solely supply the UK (13th in Consumption) with oil...

#6 "I know that they were investigated, and it was found that the admissions policy had been found to have been proactively racist against admitting Scots, to the extent that less than 1% who attended were Scottish."

Are you seriously trying to tell us less than 1% of Students who attend Edinburgh University are Scottish? I'd love to know where you get this from. Can you post up this investigation so we can all see it?

15

Publius,

Girvan for the weekend 10/06/2007 09:10:02

Universities are for research as well as teaching. Good research universities act as centres for economic growth and hi-tech industries. Thye generate local industries with top flight (and top pay) jobs, like Silicon Valley or the science based industries around Cambridge. Some good work is done at several Scottish universities, such as Dundee in the medical sciences. But our top Unis are not in the same league as the top Unis in the USA or England.
Subsidising student education at the cost of research
will further undermine our Universities.

16

donald,

weegieland 10/06/2007 09:11:57

Mr Angry,
Why don't you say what you mean? You know how thick London's Labour boot boys are up here.

17

David MacVicar,

web 10/06/2007 09:38:16

Smoke and mirrors. The UK press again stresses the difference in funding per head based on the block grant which is skewed due to extra unbudgeted spending in England and Wales from our tax. It is Proven (and still failed to be countered) that Scotland provides much more to the UK than it receives.

The Times journalists and people like AM are well aware that the price per head in Scotland is calculated by adding in figures that are not included in England and Wales, yet Several areas in England and Wales still manage to have a higher figure than Scotland.

The establishment = compare apples with oranges to try to show that Scotland is a subsidy junky when in fact the reverse is true and has been since decades.

The SNP however should be very careful about the best way to spend this money and has been mentioned University standards need to be kept up.
Neither do I think that students who have managed to get into serious debt should get it wiped clean. I believe students have had far too much of a burden on them but any money they get should be capped based on average costs. EG if someone racks up 12000 debt in 3 years what did they spend it on if people in the same digs and same Uni manage to get limit debt to say 5000?

All I am saying is that if students can get all dept wiped out it is human nature to abuse the system there should be a reasonable and justifiable limit with the remaining debt the responsibility of the student.

18

David MacVicar,

web 10/06/2007 09:39:43

19. AM2

As the old joke goes:
Q. What do you call a Scotsman at St. Andrews university?

A. The Janitor!

19

Sue (granddaughter of a Glaswegian engineer),

Twyford 10/06/2007 10:02:20

Saying that money will be paid out of government coffers is short of the truth. The government has no money of its own - every penny it spends is our money, taxpayers money - there is no other money but our money. Scrapping the graduate tax on graduates doesn't mean scrapping it at all - it just means we all pay more to subsidise them. And that is a good thing if they go on to become taxpayers themselves.

20

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 10:02:35

19 AM2

I am seriously suggesting that at this point in time, they have to positively discriminate to get Scottish students in to the tune of 5%.

It was found at one point to have less than 1% Scottish entrants. A look at the EU chat room will show you the discontent about this.

21

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 10:04:08

8 Apologies, that should have read 'were'.

22

H Callahan,

10/06/2007 10:05:43

We need to have a complete review, not just of student funding, but we need to take a more complete view of what universities are for.

"The minister has sketched out the plans on cancelling student debt. She knows what she is talking about but I don't want her just to focus on that, but also on how we can continue to have good research carried out at our universities," he added.


gimme gimme gimme!!!
it's just one demand after another from this lot.
how many 'reviews' do these guys need? The govt. has had some kind of review every year or so, everyone knows what the answers are. And what are universities for?!....teaching and research and making a few quid on the side I would have thought.

So, go away and do that, and stop whining about wanting more money every year. If they organised their own affairs properly and made more money from the oodles of expertise at their fingertips then there wouldn't be any money issues.

thank you.

23

sheena,

at home 10/06/2007 10:12:05

No. 9 - totally agree

Another manifesto promise kept. How many is that already? The speed of it all has taken my breath away. If the new executive is doing anything wrong it is that announcements come so thick and fast that we don't have time to appreciate the enormous positive difference each one will make to people's lives.

What we have now in Scotland is a Government which is neither subject to 'orders' from Westminster nor part of the 'Establishment' which has since time immemorial, blighted the lives of ordinary people while serving its own interests, throughout the UK.

Wake up and savour it - we are living in historic times.

24

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 10:20:04

16

It is very hard to find this report but did appear on the Scottish news 4 years ago or thereabouts, hence the positive discrimination at present. The education system is not based on merit, or rather it is based more so on merit now than it was previously. I think Blair made it that 55% of people going going to Oxbridge etc had to come from Stateschools.

Blair did something good in that respect. The simple fact of the matter is, that the 'H' grade is a poor equivalent of the 'A' grade, especially if it did not come from a fee paying school.

The admissions of EU were very deliberate about this, hence the derisory figure. Anyone who has been to St Andrews will know what 21 is talking about, or in and around EU. With 2000 private schools and not enough places at Cambridge or Oxford, then EU and St Andrews are the next best, at least in terms of reputation and not actual university standing in terms of quality.

The reports pertaining to the violent crime stats will relate to the central belt and again appeared on the Scoth news.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article568214.ece

And this from the Times

25

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 10:20:57

They were AM2

26

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 10:22:19

You seem quite able to get reports, find this one. Thats would be a great challenge. Trust me AM2.

27

janis,

London 10/06/2007 10:25:30

Sheena...post 26.....If you read my previous comment @ 15.....it would seem that the Scottish secretary for education MAY be going back on a pre-election promise (next Wednesday). Still it only affects us English, not to worry <g>

28

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 10:26:56

You will find endless articles relating to the 'change of heart they have'

29

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 10:31:26

Education should be based on merit which the SNP are trying to achieve.

Pool compy about to begin - must run

30

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 10:32:27

Absolutely nothing AM2. The question we should all ask ourselves is, why aren't 30% of them Scottish.

31

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/06/2007 10:49:50

AM2.

I see, with all your spinning, you have finally fallen down. Unfortunately, as can be seen from your ubiquitous post, you have now taken up breakdancing.

If you are suggesting that a culture of encouraging, no! deliberately manufacturing debt is the function of a socially responsible government there is very little hope for you.

32

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/06/2007 10:56:07

#8 aMasterMariner.

You could not see the point of a nuclear missile even if was heading for the point of you nos(e).

33

poorworkingclassfemale,

east lothian 10/06/2007 11:05:29

As per usual the poor working class single people of scotland subisidise the rich and the foreign to go to our universities.

Would have loved to have went to university but since I come from a "poor working class" background I couldn't do it.

I know I could have worked my way through uni - my brother did it at a cost.

The scots SHOULD BE ALLOWED to attend our universities.

The two governments TAKE FROM THE POOR TO GIVE TO THE RICH.

Why should my taxes go to subsidise the rich when I am struggling to earn a decent living. Singles always lose out!!!!!

34

ColinEdin,

10/06/2007 11:11:28

I am a Scot currently attending Edinburgh University. I have never ever seen any such descrimination. Although, I have also never been in a single class in two years where Scots were in the majority (which must be well over twenty different classes I have been in). Maybe Scots just don't like studying what I'm studying.

35

,

10/06/2007 11:29:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 698669, Article id was mapped to record!
36

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 11:32:12

The figures are naturally hard to find but true - trust me. As for the positive discrimination

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=258912003

37

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 11:37:41

41 Colin Edin

They are probably on the high side even after 6 or 7 years change in the admissions policy.

38

Gregorf,

Universities are private businesses 10/06/2007 11:47:24

Anyone who attended school and thought that entry into University was based on merit, as you naturally would, were wrong then but less so now.

The selection process goes something like this;

The amount of cash your parents spent at secondary level, hence the existence of these schools.

Who you are, including family contacts etc

Merit

Ability to pay

Universities are private businesses and not extensions of the state school system. He who controls the admissions desks of these institutions, controls the admissions. That is why Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, St Andrews etc have had to change their elitist policies because of a number of laws, no doubt incorporated as part of the EU, human rights etc.

39

Gregorf,

Time for pool 10/06/2007 11:48:35

Off for a few pints

40

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 12:25:54

I could tell you where I got those figures, but it is not something I could post on here.

It was not a nationalist thing, just to make sure that people did not get confused where 'H' grades sit in the scheme of things, or rather where they used to sit in the scheme of things. Oxford and Cambridge did the same to state school pupils in England. Remember UCAS, it is a British educational organisation that operates over two distinct educational systems.

I respect your posts because you are up for a good debate but the little link here got me going I have to admit. The bit about it being 'discrimatory'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/articl...

41

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 13:15:26

Seriously I could'nt tell you on this forum AM2.


I stayed in instead and decided to catch up on a few things. I have newly arrived in Shanghai to work so have to avoid the expat haunts (free pool) which I have not been doing.

The Guiness is £5 a pint and you drink alot of that in this heat.

Tis true though :)

42

sjs,

Edinburgh 10/06/2007 13:18:37

I was about to post a comment linking to the Times article about this, but I see Gregorf #49 had done it for me. I just posted a comment on the Times page, but since it tells the truth (Scotland subsides England, not the other way about), I doubt they will post it. The Times article is the most blatantly pro-English and irritating type of paper I have come to hate. See:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/articl...

Also, if you don't believe Scotland is the one subsidising England, I suggest you visit http://www.alba.org.uk/ and scroll down on the left to "Scotching the Myth". It will tell you the truth about Scotland and England and who is subsidising who.

Going back to the comments here and the article in The Scotsman... Graduate Endowments and student loans cannot be separated; because students need loans to pay the endowment; unless they are wealthy enough to pay it from their own pockets.

Being a student myself, I find the cost of a university degree enormous. The support for the poor is actually very good, but for the "middling sorts" it is not; because: you do not get any money from the government except transport allowance; which is only open to you if you take a student loan(!), and does not cover anywhere near the true costs of public transport involved. You're lucky if you get less than half back.

The government gives you aid depending on your parents' income, but they do not assess your parents' debt, or mortgage outgoings. Technically I could take my parents to court for not paying me the money other students get because their parents have a very low income and thus qualify for a bursary. What sort of a position does this leave students like me in? It means you are forced to take out a £14 000 loan to pay the costs of trav

43

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/06/2007 13:22:48

AM2,

My point was not tangential.

I stated that it was deliberate government policy to generate student debt and, for me, this is morally reprehensible.

The result of this is that poorer students generally remain in debt for considerably longer than their more affluent peers or, indeed, emigrate or take employment outwith the field of their expertise.

There,fore I believe that the SNP policy of clearing this debt is not only socially and morally responsible but, also, makes economic sense.

44

Angus Og,

S 10/06/2007 13:26:09

I'm so glad this has happened.

I'm graduated 30 years ago, and I got a grant which almost met all my living expenses and most of my books.

I doubt I'd have done it without.

I have no children however I'm happy my taxes are being spent on this. I'd be happier still if Scottish students got a grant.

45

Tax the poor, there's more of them,

10/06/2007 13:45:56

If you get a good degree from a good university at public expense in a useful subject then (a) society is better off because it has one more engineer/doctor/entrepreneur and (b) by paying more tax (not necessarily at a higher % rate) than a checkout worker you end up paying for the education that got you into a nice job. Seems like everyone is a winner to me, as long as some idiot future Executive does not set up the rules so you can fiddle it by getting a "free" education in Scotland/England and then moving so as to avoid paying a different rate of tax (say, oh, 3% calling itself "local income tax") in England/Scotland.

However. I think that individual students should also take some of the individual financial responsibility for their education up front rather than everyone else paying for it (which is what "free" means). How many art historians does the country need? I suspect rather fewer than the number currently funded from the public purse. If you want to make yourself useful eventually then the state should help in some manner. If you want to swan about reading Media or Gender Studies for 4 years then bring your chequebook!

Finally, taxation is voluntary anyway. If you have just graduated in a discipline which is worth 50k+ in a technical job then you can earn twice that in a proper economy like Singapore or UAE and not pay a penny, unless you have done something really Scotland-specific like law, in which case you have dug your own hole. So having a proper, student-specific loan/top-up fee system at least makes sure that something is given back even by those with enough sense to slip through the socialist net.

46

Tax the poor, there's more of them,

10/06/2007 13:52:42

# 52

BTW I fully sympathise with your position. Been there done that and so did all my friends. Student finance sucks. It is just that five years down the line, if your are reasonably competent in something employable, it will seem like not such a big deal in retrospect and well worth the effort. I am sure 80% of my contemporaries would agree. The other 20% are stuffed of course but they could always have worked harder to get a better degree or gone into plumbing in the first place. I know things are less rosy 5 years on - so call it 70%/30% now.

47

Steven M.,

10/06/2007 14:03:27

Well done AM2 on some probing questioning. All too often morons like Gregorf (no offence) are allowed to post absolute crap on here and get away with it. I asked Gregorf earlier to explain where he got the figures that less than 1% of students at Edinburgh University were Scottish.

To catalogue his responses:

1 - you should look at a chatroom.

2 - it is very hard to find the report, but it did appear on Scottish TV about 4 years ago. Honest.

3 - You will find endless articles relating to the 'change of heart they have' (WHERE????)

4 - The figures are naturally hard to find but true - trust me.

5 - I could tell you where I got those figures, but it is not something I could post on here. (BECAUSE YOU MADE THEM UP!)

Well that's clear then.

I personally know many Scots who attended Edinburgh University (I went to Aberdeen myself and would heartily recommend it) and, to be fair, many of them did complain about the large number of English public school types who attend the University. There is a reason for that though, and it is because Edinburgh is an internationally respected University with a worldwide reputation for the quality of its teaching and research. That is - people want to study there! If the SNP have anything to do with it, though, that won't last for long and its proportion of Scots will be equivalent to your local technical college.

48

Gregorf,

10/06/2007 14:32:11

57 Good hunting - check the STV/BBC news archives from anywhere between 4 and 6 years ago - as per a previous post

49

Tax the poor, there's more of them,

10/06/2007 14:42:48

Gregorf

We don't believe you. The onus is on you to find it yourself and show us!

I can personally vouch for the presence of a good deal more than 200 Scots at Edinburgh Uni between four and six years ago, unless they were all just putting the accents on. If you can't find it then maybe your recollection of a 1% figure is not so good 4-6 years later?

50

Royster,

10/06/2007 14:47:03

Nice to see a pro-unionist policy from the SNP for a change. Not only helping English students but also paying the fees of Scottish students so they can go and find work in England upon graduation.

51

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/06/2007 15:19:23

#60 Royster

You haven't got it yet, have you?

The SNP is an internationalist party!

It also believes in a well educated people as this will benefit both Scotland and the rest of the world. That is why its education policy is as it is.

52

Pictus,

Green Gables 10/06/2007 17:56:55

Sorry to post offtopic, but it is too bad the 'powers' cut off comment on the Gadaffigate story. I was hoping to find out if May 25th was a late celebration of Queen Victoria's birthday. I thought Canada was the only country to still use her as an excuse for a holiday. "The 24th 0f May/ The Queen's birthday/ If we don't get a holiday/ We'll all run away!", Canadian children used to chant in centuries past.

53

Pilar Lopez,

On boat tae CalMacistan 10/06/2007 18:03:53

easy way to save university cash
... close down all the Social Science departments
... they only produce more airheads and shallow folk who think that their bog-roll Sociology degree actually makes them some kind of member of the intelligensia ...

ahhh ahhh ...

Sociology graduates are thick as pig-mierde ... they produce nothing
... do nothing
... think about nothing
... and are almost as intellectually challenged as the other lightweights who do Media Studies

54

Pilar Lopez,

On boat tae CalMacistan 10/06/2007 18:08:22

#62
yes I noticed that to ...
I suddenly got an error message
... then a:
"we are sorry check you have a valid browser and are connected to the Internet" message

... the Uncle Tom Laborista ...
... are quick to pull the plug on these forums when the wind is not blowing in their direction Pictus

55

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/06/2007 18:15:12

NEWS FLASH

Gordon Brown announced today free lifelong education. A source close to the PM-in-waiting said that monies to fund this would be made available to assist NL in Scotland to fulfill it Election commitment of "Education, Education, Education".

The source also said that this funding would only be made available to those who could positively prove that the were unionist through and through. He suggested that 86% of the people of Scotland would benefit from this measure.

56

Steven M.,

The SNP is an internationalist party. (?) 10/06/2007 18:45:20

"Internationalism is a political movement which advocates a greater economic and political cooperation among nations for the benefit of all. Partisans of this movement, such as supporters of the World Federalist Movement, claim that nations should cooperate because their long-term mutual interests are of greater value than their individual short-term needs.

Internationalism is by nature opposed to ultranationalism, jingoism and national chauvinism. Internationalism presupposes the recognition of other nations as equal, in spite of all their differences."

Ends at the English border though, eh?

57

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/06/2007 18:57:02

#66

Your point is, I believe, that the SNP conforms to the 1st. sentence in para2.

I would be grateful if you would supply me with proof from recent SNP manifestos that, in any way, would remotely support your suggestion.

58

howyoudoingboy,

iberia 10/06/2007 19:04:59

government coffers or the peoples pocket
you can tell there are a lot of students on
this thread any of you lot pay a mortgage.
keep a family
#61

The SNP is an internationalist party!
yep they hate every nation equally

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=9068...

the beliefs of a average snp supporter

you're suggesting that Scots are ethnically the same as other Northern Europeans. However, take a random sample of twenty (ethnic) Scots and compare to a random sample of twenty Irish or twenty English, it's easy to tell them apart.

59

morris,

edinburgh 10/06/2007 19:15:36

2
Are you serious?Thats the most idiotic argument you have come up with yet and you have had some crackers!
4 In the first place we have a devolved assembly with limited powers and limited finances.Thats fact.Your comment displays to the world that you dont unerstand how our system of government works in Scotland .You must be a Labour supporter.
Edinburgh can be held accountable for devolved issues,but not for retained ones .

Are you saying you did not know this ?
It sure looks like it!

60

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 10/06/2007 19:19:53

Perhaps the grants should only be provided for those studying subjects that the economy is short of - Engineering, Software and traditional sciences?

That way it might be affordable; the economy will benefit and people are more likely to get highly skilled jobs when they leave Uni.

If people still want to study subjects for which there is no shortage (e.g. media studies) then they can still do so; but not subsidised by the tax payer.

61

,

10/06/2007 19:21:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 699292, Article id was mapped to record!
62

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/06/2007 19:29:49

#68 Howdaydoday,

Are you chairman Gordon? Your grasp of english seems as tenuous.

1. I believe that free education is the best way forward for humanity, not only Scotland.
I am not a student but, I was the 1st. in my extended family to benefit from free education and, I find it very sad that those who are deliberately generating debt for our young people are the very same who benefitted as I did.

2. The question I asked referred to asked for proof from any recent SNP Manifesto.

Your last para. is incomprehensible.

63

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/06/2007 19:38:31

#68

Also my 2 children went to university and were financed by my wife and myself in terms of normal expenditure, including a spending allowance, to obviate state generated debt. Any excess expenditure was their own problem.
As a result, for 2 years approx. 25% of our income was being spent on supporting our children's education, excluding what was spent outwith term time. This is an intolerable burden on a "hard working family"

64

frank mcbride,

lusitania 10/06/2007 19:46:23

#71

Your incoherence is astounding!

Please don't show your ignorance any further. However, if you have a point to make then, please try to make it in some coherent form.

65

Tax the poor, there's more of them,

Edinburgh 10/06/2007 20:19:16

#68 howyoudoingboy, iberia
"any of you lot pay a mortgage.
keep a family"

Ah, the favourite whine of the I-missed-out-on-the-free-lunch brigade.

So what? The mortgage and the family are your personal life choices for which you bear full responsibility. Some people choose to do that, some people choose to invest in their future by taking on a load of debt to go to Uni, lots of people (self included) do both in one order or the other. No-one forces you to saddle yourself with either if you don't want to. Do you have a car, a mobile phone and the occasional night out? Yes? Then you clearly have some cash to spare before the mortgage and the family are at risk. Don't begrudge tax pounds to that subsection of the student population who deserve them (i.e. have the abilities and the initiative to do a worthwhile degree to the benefit of themselves and the general population).

66

Pilar Lopez,

out on the astral plains (looking for Kirsty W) 10/06/2007 20:22:05

wee Eck is still post coital after his sesh on Newsnight with the Beeb Dominatrix a.k.a. big bad Kirsty ...
Normal policy decision making will be continued when Alex recovers!!

67

Eve,

Scotland 10/06/2007 20:25:19

I hope the Lib dems don't get scared about backing the SNP on this one.

P.S. The graduation tax is at the moment £2,200 an extra £200 to what the Scotsmans story says. It was £2,000 it was introduced at, it went up like every thing else.

68

Pilar Lopez,

out on the astral plains (looking for Kirsty W) 10/06/2007 20:25:40

#75 ... surely the Super Rich can afford more tax .. do they need two gas guzzlers and third holiday home in the country and their own helicopter to get to Tescos from the farm oot in the sticks??

69

Pilar Lopez,

out on the astral plains (looking for Kirsty W) 10/06/2007 20:28:22

#75 ... or is a Ford Mondeo ... one house ... a trip to the local convenience store "a la Shanks's' Pony" no guid enoughn for them

70

Pilar Lopez,

out on the astral plains (looking for Kirsty W) 10/06/2007 20:32:53

#77 ...
yes Eve !!
... but Blair/Brown/ wee Eck /Sir Mingin' o' and lets not forget wee Joke McC ... ALL DID THEIR DEGREES IN THE 1960'S AND 70'S ... when it was free !!!
... with a full grant ... repeat years ... and no loans ... no Fees etc

so empathy with todays student undergrads will be in short supply since their experience of student life was a million miles awa !!!

71

Tax the poor, there's more of them,

Edinburgh 10/06/2007 20:39:30

Pilar

Heh heh glad you asked

The super rich can indeed afford to pay more tax. And they will simply leave any country where the system is "fair" enough to make sure they pay it. I think anyone who earns >1m a year should just be let off tax, full stop. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and the rest move here in a jiffy and start spending money and creating jobs. Fairer? No. Scotland better off? Yes. I would rather live in a prosperous Scotland where everyone benefits from the enterprise and endeavour of the top 1% than a 1970s-esque dystopia where the populace are all equally well off because everyone except the dross has gone somewhere where they are allowed to keep more of what they have earned.

72

howyoudoingboy,

off to bed 10/06/2007 20:52:04

#74

to busy working carrying a heavy load down a long road to get educated still i aint got a complex over it

my handwriting is even worse everybody calls it the hieroglyphics and we all have a good laugh especially when i cant make out what i have written.

so when i meet people like you (and i have met plenty) you know the English middle class type it's water of duck's back to me.

25% i didn't have that to spare but my two kids have turned out fine.

humanity were is that in nationalist philosophy and
what does it mean to be Scottish and what happens
to those who may reject the SNP version seems to me one way or another we are on the slippery slope to the kind of political sectarianism seen in northern Ireland.

because i do not believe you are ever going to get a
overwhelming majority for independence and the idea of a simple over 50% will never be accepted by the pro union Scots you wil not be able to democratize people out of their nation so what is going to happen then

#75 never had a free lunch and according to you not
part of the general population and what about people with disabilities in your world

73

Tax the poor, there's more of them,

Edinburgh 10/06/2007 20:55:04

Actually that was a bit facetious wasn't it. The lifestyle you describe (Fourbie and a couple of houses) is more the upper end of "middle Britain" than "super rich". In their case, although I think that both 4x4s and multiple homes are actually pretty despicable for other reasons, I would quite understand them just not wanting to be told what they "need" and what they can "afford" to pay in tax. It's their money, they earned it, they should at least be able to choose whether their tax is spent on Jeremy and Tarquin's university; schools and hospitals; Trident; subsidising one house Mondeo Man; or sending it to Darfur where it would do 100x as much good as any of the above.

74

Tax the poor, there's more of them,

Edinburgh 10/06/2007 21:14:20

"#75 never had a free lunch"

Correct, I didn't.

"what about people with disabilities in your world"

Well obviously society has an obligation to those who cannot look after themselves and make sure they have the same opportunities for education as everyone else insofar as their disability allows. What did you expect me to say? I don't mind my tax pounds being spent on that. I only mind paying a proportionally greater share for things I don't want in the first place, like unnecessary graduates of questionable ability in dodgy subjects.

75

Tax the poor, there's more of them,

Edinburgh 10/06/2007 22:48:05

<yawn> also off to bed but I think I will bait howyoudoingboy some more first

"to busy working carrying a heavy load down a long road to get educated"

(1) Does the long road have a cardboard box in the middle of it containing four Yorkshiremen?

(2) Maybe <gasp> the road would be shorter and the load less heavy *with* an education. That's why people go to Uni... too busy *not* to take the express instead of slogging along

"still i aint got a complex over it"
Well I will take your word for that. But you've clearly got a massive chip on your shoulder about
"the English"
"middle class types"
"(ethnic) Scots"
and whatever it is you are talking about in the 30% of your posts where I honestly cannot piece together the subject, the object and the verb to discern your meaning.

76

Royster,

10/06/2007 23:04:49

#61. Like I said, I support the policy because I think it is a unionist one. It just shows the very strong links between the different parts of the UK. Scotland can try to have an independent policy on education fees but it is ultimately pointless. The brightest and the best graduates will still probably move down to England (mainly London) as that is where the economy is. London has been the driving force of this island's economy since Roman times.

77

John R. Constable,

England 10/06/2007 23:17:42

If we start from the premise that Scotland controls its own destiny, then of course, it can choose to finance the education of Scottish students in whatever way the Scottish Parliament feels is appropriate and affordable.

The problem is that Scotland is not fully independent and that is where things get messy because some of the education funding is coming from Westminster (whilst the oil money goes the other way).

Continual problems of this nature and others (e.g. Blairs alledged promises to Gaddafi over prisioners held in Scotland for crimes committed in/over Scotland) will keep on arising until Scotland obtains full independence from Westminster.

There is a dreadful irony in that it is mostly Scottish professional politicians operating at Westminster, aided and abetted by a quite powerful Scottish media mafia (Marcus Linklater, Kirstie Wark et al) also working in London, who seem to be doing their utmost to deny the Scottish people their destiny.

I understand that Scottish history has been plagued by these sorts.

This Englishman fully understands, we English are being deferred from our own destiny by these very same people.

78

Royster,

11/06/2007 00:28:19

#87. I start to worry when people and politicians go on about destiny. It's a very fascist notion. Hitler used the word a lot. The other word that sets off alarm bells for me is 'millennium'.

79

Eve,

Scotland 11/06/2007 21:29:30

#87. John R. Constable: There called TRATOURS and indeed there has been a few BUT some are curopeded by money or power. Have you noticed that Westminster MP's get paid at least £10,000 more than MSP's.

Why shouldn't the flows of the union be pointed out.

Though this destiny talk reminds me of the Stone. Some people think it should be return to Westminster even though it a Scottish stone. Though there has been a rummor that the stone they sent back was not that stone of destiney because it was stolen back to Scotland back in the 1950's and swaped with a copy. (How knows, about that one!!!)

The breaking up of the union is no a destiney it's the inetable and will empower thoes who feel incapable/ in some deprived areas to become healthier, wealthier and happier.

80

Eve,

Scotland 11/06/2007 21:31:01

oopps I forgot to spell check on comment #89. I hope the spellchecker police forgive me for ma wee slip up.


 

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