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Brown faces clash over terror laws



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Published Date:
04 November 2007
THE Prime Minister faces opposition from his own backbenchers and the House of Lords over plans to extend the time that terror suspects can be held without charge.
The proposal, which led to Tony Blair's first defeat as Prime Minister in 2005, is set to become one of the first major Parliamentary clashes of Brown's premiership.

David Winnick, the Labour backbencher who led the revolt that saw Tony Blair's h
umiliating defeat over the issue, told Scotland on Sunday that the Government had failed to make a convincing case for a change in the law.

And Lord Avebury, the Liberal Democrats home affairs spokesman in the House of Lords, said that cross-party and independent peers as well as the bishops remained opposed to the measure.

A counter-terrorism bill to be included in the Queen's Speech on Tuesday will include a measure proposing an extension to the existing 28-day limit.

Brown had wanted to make a second attempt at introducing a 90-day limit - a measure that was rejected by MPs, including 49 Labour backbenchers, in Blair's first Commons defeat.

The continued opposition from all parties, including his own backbenchers, has persuaded the Prime Minister to reduce that to a compromise limit of around 56 days, with improved safeguards such as weekly reviews.

But Winnick, the Walsall North MP, said he remained convinced that his successful 28-day compromise amendment was the appropriate limit for detention without charge.

"It does seem that the Government is working on the assumption that although they could not get 90 days through, they can get 56 days through; but the fact remains that, even if the Commons agrees, it is unlikely to get through the House of Lords.

"If there was persuasive evidence that it's necessary for the security of our country I would agree, but there is no such evidence that 28 days is not enough. I will be disappointed if the Government does go ahead with this."

Winnick, a member of the Home Affairs Select Committee, said

that if the Government was lucky enough to get the measure through it would create a clash in the House of Lords, where peers remained opposed to any change in the existing law.

Lord Avebury, for the Liberal Democrats, said: "If the Government did seek to extend the time limit beyond 28 days it would find itself in some difficulty, because not only would they find party political opposition in the House of Lords but some of the crossbenchers and the bishops would have their doubts too."

He predicted that peers would seek to amend the bill to retain the existing period of detention of 28 days and to introduce strict safeguards such as specially appointed courts and lawyers to oversee the implementation of the law.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has told the Home Affairs Select Committee that it is "reasonable and proportionate" to extend the law to deal with the increasing complexity and international links of recent terror plots.



The full article contains 502 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 November 2007 7:35 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Terrorism in the UK
 
1

Union mutt,

04/11/2007 00:46:53

One law for them…

On Sunday 17th of September this year a group of Muslims held a demonstration outside the Roman Catholic Westminster
Cathedral in London in response to the Pope quoting 14th century Manuel II of the Byzantine Empire saying that the Muslim prophet Mohammed introduced 'things only evil and inhuman'. As the Christian congregation left the Cathedral it was met by chanting Muslim protesters some of whom carried placards saying, "Pope go to Hell", and "Jesus is the slave of Allah".

Afterwards complaints were made to the police about protest organiser Anjem Choudary who had threatened anyone who insulted Mohammed with “capital punishment”.

Choudary explained; “Muslims take their religion very seriously and non-Muslims must appreciate that and must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet…I think that warning needs to be understood by all people who want to insult Islam and want to insult the prophet of Islam."

Needless to say the police took no action against either Chowdary’s threats or his demonstration.

Now imagine this situation as the reverse of what it was, although I accept it takes a lot of imagining. Suppose a group of Christians had decided to stage a protest in response to recent outrages perpetrated by Muslims on Christians in the Muslim world. And suppose they planned to hold their demonstration outside an important mosque after Friday prayers in one of Britain’s major cities. And here’s where I ask you to stretch your imagination to breaking point, suppose also that the local Chief Constable had given his blessing to this Christian demo, “…in the interest of free speech.”

Finally, suppose that on the day of this hypothetical demonstration some of the Christians carried placards that were as offensive to Muslims as the Muslim-designed placards “Pope go to Hell” and “Jesus is the slave of Allah” were to Christians.

How d

2

Union mutt,

04/11/2007 00:47:30

A people’s culture is the amalgam of its religious belief, its music, art, and literature, its philosophy and politics, its architecture and codes of dress, its science and technology, and its social relationships and law. It is a product of a people’s interaction with nature.

And because different peoples interpret nature differently cultures differ. It’s as simple as that.

Ideally a people will have its own living space in which to express itself according to its own way of seeing the world – the form of that expression is its culture. But in multicultural Britain, British culture is compromised by the need to consider the world views of the other peoples that reside here. And the further apart the various peoples are in terms of their world views the more difficult it is to compromise their belief systems.

Mass third world immigration and the multicultural society are consequences of the establishment’s ‘commitment to equality’, yet, paradoxically, the multicultural society and the principle of equality before the law are incompatible.

In multicultural Britain different laws are applied to different peoples and the same law is applied differently to different peoples. The principle of the rule of law has been weakened in the process of maintaining the multicultural society to such an extent that we now have a system of legal pluralism; there’s now no such thing as the ordinary law of the land.

Legal pluralism in act and action

British law should be an expression of the British people, like the other facets of our culture it should be a reflection of how we are. But it’s not like that.

For example, the British people recognise a responsibility to animals and so naturally we’ve enshrined in our law the right of animals to live free from cruelty. Man’s duty to exercise this right on behalf of animals is defined in law, our method of slaughter is designed to comply with this law, and we have forces of law whose function is

3

Union mutt,

04/11/2007 00:48:01

The examples of this are legion, where parliament and the forces of law and order are more severe in their attitude towards ethnic Britons than they are in their attitude to minorities, particularly Muslim minorities. We have two codes of law, a liberal code for Muslims and a more severe code for ethnic Britons.

What is the law for?

The law can have only one legitimate purpose: To act in the best interest of that which created it. And since the law is a function of a people’s interaction with nature, it stands to reason that the law should be an expression of that people’s way of viewing the world.

But because of its belief in the theory of equality and more recently because of the necessity imposed on it by the multicultural society, the establishment sees British law in abstract terms of ‘universal equality’ and ‘absolute objectivity’. And now it is as if the link between British law and the British people has been severed, where for instance the law sees no contradiction in putting the interest of Afghan hijackers (and countless other ‘asylum seekers’ and immigrants) before that of the indigenous British.

The Libs, Labs, and Cons are all guilty of supporting multiculturalism, and they’ve all gone out of their way to sing its praises and silence its doubters. It’s only very recently that they’ve changed tack, and then only because the writing is on the wall.

But in their initial eagerness to construct the multicultural model and latterly in their desperation to hold it together, the politicians enshrined cultural relativism in law: in a multicultural society no culture can be seen to be superior to any other. Of course it was complete nonsense, and it was only a matter of time before it was exposed as such. And now they’re backtracking and talking in wishful thinking terms about British values as the mortar which binds Britain’s diversity.

The British judiciary lags behind the politicians’ re-evaluation of multicultural value

4

Union mutt,

04/11/2007 00:48:34

But the politicians have only themselves to blame. They complain that the judiciary takes advantage of ambiguity so as to interpret the law in a manner contrary to that that was intended. But that’s because politicians are themselves so cowed by equality dogma that they’re reluctant to ‘draw a line’, which in turn has created the ambiguity that undermines the original intention. Lawyers and judges feed on the margins; and if there’s no line it’s all margin.

British law should serve the interests of the ethnic British people; if it doesn’t it ceases to be British law and becomes something else.
The universal egalitarianism of Lib, Lab, and Con politicians and the absolute objectivity of the judiciary are two sides of the same fantasy. They are both theoretical concepts that don’t exist in the real world; nothing is equal to anything else and there is no such a thing as an absolutely objective point of view.

This is not to say that the two ideas are of no use in politics and law, rather that they should be employed only in issues involving ‘like’ with ‘like’, where both parties subscribe more or less to the same world view. When parties differ radically in their world views then at best their understanding of equality and objectivity will be radically different, at worst they may not even acknowledge their existence.

The mistake our politicians and judiciary have made is that instead of employing equality and objectivity subjectively, which they would do were they to accept the ‘inner: outer’ duality, they employ them universally. This is rather like refusing to differentiate between members of one’s own nuclear family and everybody else; and the consequence is the same too – you end up losing control of your own house.

Politicians and judiciary have made British politics and British law no longer British, since neither exclusively serves the interests of ethnic Britons. The British have been pushed to the back for the benefit of ‘manki

5

Union mutt,

04/11/2007 00:49:09

Liberals, Muslims and the law

The establishment’s fundamental contradiction is that whilst they regard all peoples as equals they also believe that were all those peoples blended into one the resulting melange would be greater than the sum of its parts. And the fundamental hypocrisy is that when liberals say that all people are the same, what they really mean is that people should be the same as them with the same aspirations.

Yet different peoples respond to the same things differently – that’s what tells us they’re different. And to their horror the liberal establishment are finding out that not everyone wants to be a middle class liberal, especially not Muslims who have their own way of viewing the world which, they believe, is superior to that advocated by Western liberals.

The conceit and insolent pride of the liberal establishment led to mass third world immigration, to the development of the multicultural society, and to the fracturing of our society along ethnic and cultural lines. As always hubris leads to nemesis.

The willingness of the liberals to undermine our (and their) way of life for an idea may very well have been an innocent expression of their egalitarianism. Perhaps they really did believe that they could create a better way of living from the top storey down.

At the beginning the liberals were in charge; they had it in mind to make British society into a precursor of worldwide egalitarianism. It was idealism gone mad. They invited millions of third world immigrants to live here and then changed our way of living so as to take into account the newcomers’ religious and cultural sensitivities. But in so doing they gave immigrants the confidence and moral authority to justify the existence and expansion of their own cultures within our culture. The establishment’s plan has backfired. Instead of being in charge they now cling to a tiger’s tail.

They made compromises of their own volition, initially. But that was

6

Union mutt,

04/11/2007 00:49:35

Why didn’t the police remove the placards carried by Muslims on their recent demonstrations? They were threatening and offensive, as were the chants and behaviour of the demonstrators - one of the event organisers was even quoted making threats, yet the police let things go ahead without intervention*. What’s so special about Islam and Muslims that they should be handled with kid gloves?

The issue, obviously, is one of response – could it be anything else? How would Muslim worshippers respond to a Christian demonstration outside an important Mosque on a Friday after prayers? How would Muslim worshippers respond to placards offending their beliefs? Would they turn the other cheek? How would Muslim demonstrators respond to the police behaving towards them as they’d behaved towards the countryside marchers, and how would the wider Muslim population in Britain respond to news footage of these events?

The establishment is wary of the negative impact that Muslim reaction to the fair and equal application of British law would have on the ethnic Briton’s perception of the multicultural society. And no doubt they’re also worried that things could spiral out of control – so they go easy. They say that all people and cultures are essentially the same, but their actions suggest otherwise. Why else treat Muslim demonstrators differently?

The Libs, Labs, and Cons first made allowances for Muslim beliefs as a way of integrating the Muslim way of life with ours, but the medium term consequence of that has been that Muslims are now more separate than they were when they first arrived here in the early 1950’s. Now they’re making allowances for Muslims as a means of maintaining the increasingly unstable society that 60 years of mass third world immigration has created, but in doing so they can’t help but alienate a growing proportion of ethnic Britons.

The establishment rode to power on the back of the false ‘feel-good’ universal equality argument that peake

7

Guga II,

Rockall 04/11/2007 04:32:14

Union Mutt. You do go on a bit.

Anyway, this proposed extension to detention is ridiculous. They should not be arresting people unless they have sufficient evidence in the first place. What they are doing now is basically an excuse for poor intelligence from MI5 and shoddy police work.

If they can gun down innocent, unarmed civilians, with impunity, then they are not going to think twice about gaoling someone on the off-chance. I'm all for clamping down on genuine terrorists, but not for the evolution of a police state wherein they can bang someone up because some incompetents don't really know what they are doing.

The attitude of the state, in both this country and in America, was summed up well in the latest South Park episodes. We are turning the country into a police state as a result of the politicians living in fear of Imagionationland.

8

bill2,

04/11/2007 08:24:45

We live in a decadent society where our values and institutions are being eroded, and replaced with opportunist and selfish behaviour.

The erosion of privacy, civil liberties, trial by jury, habeas corpus, and upholding of the law etc are direct consequences of our actions and inactions to protect our way of life.

The decline will continue until such time as we learn to cherish what our ancestors worked and died for, behave ourselves, and appoint proper people to run our country.

9

Scott_B,

04/11/2007 09:12:35

From Sky news..

"The Home Secretary has admitted that there has not been one single case since 9/11 when police enquiries would have been aided by holding a terror suspect for more than 28 days"

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91211-1289318,00.html

So why is this being requested? Clearly it has not been necessary. The extension of state power at the expense of the hard won rights from the past decades should not be given up, particularly as it has not been necessary.

10

Boab,

Glasgow 04/11/2007 09:26:36

No, giving the police more powers to detain people without trial is a bad idea. They should stick to surveillance and infiltration which have a decent track record in fighting terrorism. 90 days is effectively internment, which has shown to be counter productive, as happened with the Maze prison.

#1-6 Union: please paste a link to a website instead of using a mass cut-and-paste.

Your argument is basically: the law is now biased towards migrants, especially Muslims; instead 'British law should serve the interests of the ethnic British people'.

I'm 'ethnic British' (I think). Supposing I was Catholic or Jewish? Would I still get to vote?

11

I'm no really here,

04/11/2007 09:28:56

Guess what Union Mutt. As soon as I saw your multiple posts - didn't read a word.

These aren't anti-terror Laws, they are anti-Civil Liberty Laws.

Regarding the poll about whether the "Pomp and Ceremony" of the opening of Parliament should be done away with. I think Lizzie should turn up in a nice wee floral dress and hat. Maybe she still has that nice wee blue number she used in 1953.

12

bill2,

04/11/2007 09:38:27

Good point Scott, well spotted.

It is now obvious that there is a separate agenda, the question is, why?

Stalinists?

13

Boy Wonder,

04/11/2007 10:14:19

Can't recall the title of a book I read years ago (around 1985), where an American detective came to Britain and was quite taken aback at how long a suspect could be held in custody (detention) for so long. The police officer told him it was called "helping the police with their enquiries" and they could hold a person indefinitely with that.

Under that premise, we already had the most draconian detention measures in the West! Even the Yanks were impressed.

Have things changed since then?

14

bill2,

04/11/2007 10:54:52

Seems as if indefinite detention without charge is a reality already!

http://www.libertysecurity.org/article27.html

15

An Engl¡sh Voice:,

04/11/2007 12:53:17

15.

a disgraceful comment. Clearly your hatred of all things British leads you to demean our excellent police as well. No dopubt are yoy are in favour of the SNP's terrorist friendly policies on this, and are happy that the SNP continues to court Islamist support?

16

Wisnaeme,

04/11/2007 13:19:40

.
I'm no really here.

"These aren't anti -terror laws, they are anti-Civil Liberty Laws."

... and that though an over simplication is the truth of the matter.

One of the differences I noticed when in Scotland was the feeling of tolerance despite the home grown bigotry of some erm supporters of the old firm. Even the media although unionist for the most part have a differing take on the war on terror for the most part. It's more cynical and explores reasons why these anti civil rights laws are imposed on us in Scotland.I suppose most Scots feel that UK government's decisions to embark on ill advised foreign adventures was wrong and that feeling transmits it's self into why should we in Scotland be the represent of such laws when this so called war on terror was not of our making by our nation but we were put apon by other folk in another place to participate in. That could well apply to other issues affecting Scotland but was not of not of their making and out of the Scottish parliament's remit. Trident for one and social issues like free personal care for another.
If anything, this difference in outlook has boosted Scottish attitudes towards more powers for the Scottish parliament and an end to being put on by a UK parliament that does not represent the will of the majority of Scots in the Westminster decision making process that does not represent them and their views of how their affairs should be conducted both at home and abroad.

... and the parting of the ways by mutual divorce and settlement is a certainty if these control freaks continue to stifle civil liberties to such a degree as to be aberrant and resented by the vast majority of Scots.

These laws are enacted in London, not Edinburgh and by the imposition of more of the same in the name of what ever is to hand a gift to those who wish to be rid of these impositions and be free to take their own decisions on these matters of importance to them. Scots do

17

Ms Fiona,

04/11/2007 13:33:26

#16 What terrorist friendly policies ? A large number of Scottish muslims do support the SNP, in my experience it is a combination of support for Salmond's highly principled stance on foreign policy, from which he has never wavered, and a belief that the SNP will manage the country better than Labour. In that respect they are not that different to other SNP supporters. Is that a problem ?

18

Walter Ego,

Durness 04/11/2007 13:46:16

Terror laws? What about the Council Tax freeze?

19

An Engl¡sh Voice:,

04/11/2007 15:33:15

18. Fiona

You asked about “terrorist friendly” policies. I ask you to consider this...

“Scotland’s nationalist-Muslim embrace”
http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflicts/democracy_terror/s...

Much of the SNP increase in support in May came from Islamists whose hatred of Britain coincides with the SNP. Clearly the SNP are now pandering to this radical Islamist support.

20

An Engl¡sh Voice:,

04/11/2007 15:46:04

18. Fiona

You asked about “terrorist friendly” policies. I ask you to consider this...

http://www.osamasaeed.org/osama/2007/08/the-recent-atta.html

More evidence of the SNP fraternising with radical terror friendly islamists

21

Ms Fiona,

04/11/2007 16:19:14

#21 , '20 didn't open. Aye I know young Scottish muslims feel more Scottish than British. What are you on about ? Strike that, I know, I've read stuff from you before. You talk nonsense. The SNP do not have terrorist friendly policies.

22

thorbotnic,

04/11/2007 18:01:13

Union mutt: if you're going to pontificate on the nature of culture and its impact on justice, I suggest you read Rawls. You'll see he is also concerned by these issues, but uses the radical step of conducting research and basing his theories on empirical foundations, rather than making unsubstantiated claims as points of intuition.

23

Mr Bob Dobolina,

UNION MUTT is copying and pasting from the BNP 04/11/2007 20:17:05

Union mutt your posts are just copying and pasting from the BNP

I am surprised Am2 hasn't reported you. Oh he only does that if someones view blows them out of the water.

24

Kipling,

@Doom Ray 05/11/2007 00:06:36

(#7 "What they are doing now is basically an excuse for poor intelligence from MI5 and shoddy police work.")

I was told long ago that you only need several GCSEs to join the police. Maybe that's the problem. And they need more typists like Union Mutt.

25

Miss Jean Brodie,

05/11/2007 01:01:30

Brown faces clash over terror laws

if he had ever listened to the ‘Clash’ britain would be in a better shape than it is now - the Stalinist DXictator ship that it is !

Tear down the wall and get these B*st*rds oot !

26

simonxhayes,

Chester 05/11/2007 14:46:12

Mi5 Chief - not just poor intelligence, Poor Eyesight, from Jonathon (more than my job's worth) Evans.

Until he acknowledges that flight 77 did NOT hit the Pentagon on 9/11 he is doing NOTHING to tackle the ideology that threatens our security. That ideology is PNAC ( Project For a New American Century)

http://www.notafreemason.com/content2-77.html


 

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