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Published Date: 04 November 2007
GOVERNMENT plans to cut primary school class sizes by spending millions of pounds of taxpayers' cash on extra teachers and classrooms will fail to boost attainment in the long term, according to a major new study.
In a hammer blow to the SNP's key election pledge of reducing P1-P3 class sizes to 18, the report found "no evidence" cutting pupil numbers would boost educational standards.

In the most comprehensive report of its kind in Scotland, civil servant
s, union chiefs and education experts studied research from across the world and concluded smaller class sizes in early primary years causes only a short-term improvement, especially for low achievers.

But the report adds there is no clear evidence of "lasting benefits beyond the early primary years".

It also finds that at least 4,000 extra teachers will be required in primary schools to meet the SNP's pledge. Economists believe this would cost at least £160m a year extra in salaries alone.

Earlier this year, Scotland on Sunday revealed that the nation's two biggest councils, Glasgow and Edinburgh, had effectively refused to implement the plan unless forced to do so by law. This newspaper also revealed new details of existing class sizes, showing many councils have classes of 29 or more children.

Last night the report prompted a new political row, with Labour claiming the findings showed the SNP government's pledge would be impossible to keep. Meanwhile, Scotland's leading parent group called on the government to ditch the policy, warning that much-needed funds could be better spent elsewhere.

However, ministers insisted they would stick to their plans, claiming the report backed up their own findings that lower class sizes in early years are effective.

The report, written by the Class Sizes, Staffing and Resources Working Group, was finalised in the summer but has still to be published. The group was chaired by Liz Lewis, the head of the Schools Group at the Scottish Government and included experts from local authorities, the Educational Institute of Scotland (EIS), the General Teaching Council for Scotland and HM Inspectorate of Education.

It concludes: "Class size reduction is attractive because it maintains the existing structure of schools while simply adding more resources. This may be a necessary step, but there is no evidence that in the long-term it will be sufficient to raise the attainment of all pupils."

The report questions two pieces of research into cutting class sizes, conducted in England and the USA, which have been used by ministers to back up their policy.

It declares: "In both the USA and England the evidence of lasting benefits beyond the early primary years seems to be weaker than for initial effects."

It continues: "Overall, research suggests a complex inter-relationship between pupil behaviour and their attitudes towards learning and their attainment. Class size may be one influential factor but the evidence is inconclusive."

The report also provides the first clear indication of the recruitment that would be required: "It is estimated that it would require over 4,000 additional teachers to reduce P1-P3 to 20."

The figure is 900 more than the 3,100 figure issued by the SNP in opposition when it announced its plans to slash class sizes.

Economists say it costs an average of £40,000 a year per teacher, suggesting it would cost £160m a year to back the pledge. Councils say they will also need tens of millions of pounds on top of that to build extra rooms in which to house the new smaller classes.

The shadow education secretary, Rhona Brankin, said: "This is astounding. The SNP have known all along how much their class size promise will cost, yet they chose to keep this a secret.

"Given that they had meetings with the civil service before the election they must have known how difficult this pledge would be to keep. Yet they still promised Scottish pupils and teachers something they had no intention of keeping."

Judith Gillespie, development manager with the Scottish Parent Teacher Council, said:

"The major problem is that there are some areas where it can't be done without reducing intake and some people are going to be upset when they can't get in to their local school.

"I think they should ditch the policy. They should ditch it in favour of a plan to ensure universal literacy by the end of primary school."

However, a spokeswoman for the Scottish Government said: "We believe that investing in children's early years is crucial and cutting class sizes is a key part of this. The research evidence - in this report from a working group set up by the previous administration - appears to support the new government's policies that cuts in class sizes in the early years make a difference."

A source close to the education secretary, Fiona Hyslop, added: "We won't take any lessons from Labour. They said they would cut class sizes in S1 and S2 for maths and English, which they failed to do."

Liz Smith, education spokeswoman for the Scottish Conservatives said: "As a former teacher, I know what is important is the teaching ability of the person in charge of the class. I don't think parents are worried about whether it is 18 or 20 or 25 pupils in the class if their children are getting good results and it is a good class."

Lib Dem leader Nicol Stephen said: "This proves the point we have been making. The SNP promised everything to everyone before the election. The truth is they never planned or costed their biggest policies."

Teachers stick with chalk despite warning

For generations it has been as central to classroom life as overdue homework and runny noses, but now teachers are being warned that chalk is bad for their health.

They are being urged to shun the traditional teaching tool over fears that dust could damage their throats.

An edict issued by the General Teaching Council for Scotland (GTCS) also suggests that teachers should practise humming and avoid tea and coffee to stop their voices from being damaged.

But the call to dust off chalk for good has been met with bemusement from teaching unions, who insist it has never been raised as a problem.

On its website, the GTCS offers tips to new teachers. A section on voice management states: "Your most important teaching tool is your voice. You need it to direct, focus and encourage pupils and to explain, discipline and manage the classroom."

As such, the independent regulatory body advises that teachers should avoid "chalk or other types of dust or fumes".

But Bill McGregor of the Headteachers' Association of Scotland said the idea of chalk being a health hazard was met with laughter by his members.

"They were quite amused when I raised the issue," he said. "Our members have no experience of chalk dust being damaging to anyone's health. In a lot of schools in Scotland, especially in rural areas, old-fashioned chalk and blackboards are the only teaching aids available."

A spokesman for GTCS admitted that there was no evidence of chalk causing health problems.

"This is a fun part of the site providing tips and advice. We don't have any evidence in relation to chalk dust."

MARC HORNE



The full article contains 1212 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 04/11/2007 00:32:29

So is the answer then to Increase class sizes or does this NEW MAJOR STUDY say this.

2

English Gringo,

surrey 04/11/2007 00:37:36

Will Cameron promise match Eton class size in the state sector..........

3

urban poacher,

04/11/2007 01:08:26

"the Class Sizes, Staffing and Resources Working Group, was finalised in the summer but has still to be published. The group was chaired by Liz Lewis, the head of the Schools Group at the Scottish Government and included experts from local authorities, the Educational Institute of Scotland (EIS), the General Teaching Council for Scotland and HM Inspectorate of Education." possibly the last people you want to have anything to do with education. Why not just call them what they are ----- the labour party. all these people were appointed undel labour administration.

"Judith Gillespie, development manager with the Scottish Parent Teacher Council, said:

The major problem is that there are some areas where it can't be done without reducing intake and some people are going to be upset when they can't get in to their local school. " Eh no, we have had team teaching since the 1970s. Put one experienced teacher and a new probationer together in a class of 30 and everyone wins. No shaortage of resource school has same capacity, pupiils get better attention, probationer learns and experienced teacher is less stressed. Don't think the SPTC is being perceptive here.

4

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 04/11/2007 01:13:56

Common sense suggests that smaller classes would make it easier to teach reading and simple sums in primary one. Parents, it seem, are too buy working, paying morgages, driving cars, having holidays abroad to do this anymore.

What more needs taught in schools? Maths seem too abstract for most folks though if you're doing engineering you have to buckle down and learn some. There's incentive.

Life skills? It would seem essential to have a life in the first place to teach these. Rather than being an "expert in education".

5

Jock MacSprog,

04/11/2007 01:22:26

gee, you mean throwing money at things doesnt solve all problems ?

6

Spotter,

04/11/2007 01:24:49

hey Eddie Barnes heard of the STAR project in Tennessee

http://www.heros-inc.org/star.htm

torpedoed again

jacket on the shaky nail :-)??

7

Geordie Peebles,

04/11/2007 01:26:13

"The report, written by the Class Sizes, Staffing and Resources Working Group, was finalised in the summer but has still to be published..."

With this line "Class size reduction is attractive because it maintains the existing structure of schools"

Then what's this?

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:LgJXQ14rMv0J:www.scr...

Which says.

"The evidence is extensive and some of it is very good. The Student Teacher Achievement Ratio (STAR) project in Tennessee is often regarded as the ‘gold standard’ of class size research."

"The evidence from studies conducted in the USA, in particular the large state-funded experiments, claim to have demonstrated an association between class size and pupil achievement, ie as class sizes reduce, pupil attainment rises."

"Evidence from the STAR project in Tennessee claims that the benefits gained from being in smaller classes are still evident in later grades."

"Evidence from the STAR project in Tennessee showed that the benefits of class size reduction are most marked in the early stages of a child’s schooling, ie kindergarten through Grade 3 (5–8 years), and with children from minority ethnic backgrounds. The impact on younger and less able children is confirmed by English evidence."

"English evidence also shows that there is a possible ‘disruption effect’, in which benefits are lost, when children who have experienced small classes in Reception class move to larger classes in Year 1."

"Teachers in USA and England claim that smaller classes afford them more opportunities to get to know children and devote more time to pupils’ individual learning n

8

Grandson of Winged Messenger,

04/11/2007 01:53:12

The idea that smaller class sizes do not allow for better teaching and, therefore, for more attainment for pupils is total, utter, comprehensive rubbish.

Perhaps these experts should search for the evidence where they're most likely to find it.

By asking the teachers.

It is a universal (and it cannot be disputed) that, regardless of age group, subject or level of education, smaller class sizes are ALWAYS better for EVERYBODY.

This is why, for example, universities compel themselves to have restricted numbers for class sizes and tutorials. This is why they do so in order to add another string to the bow of their reputations.

Because it matters.

If it is perceived to matter at university level, which is does, then we can safely assume that it matters even more at primary school level.

There, you see? It really is that simple. So why in the name of bleeeding Jesus are these experts telling us stuff that is blatantly wrong?

Or is it just another excuse for the gutless Scotsman (as opposed to the gallant and gutsy Herald) to pour the cod liver oil of anti-SNP propaganda down our throats with their usual disregard for credibility?

9

Wisnaeme,

04/11/2007 02:28:12

.
Fib Dem leader Nicol Stephen said, " This proves the point we have been making. The SNP promised everything to everyone before the election."

Really, is that a fact?

... and on what premise of factual accuracy does himself presume that? Aye, Fib Dem by choice,Fib Dem by nature.

Union chiefs is it? ... and who precisely do they represent, mind you they have a liking for representing large numbers. It's time the union comrades considered exactly who and what some comrade chiefs represent; Them, the profession in being for the purpose of... or chief comrades special relationship with the peoples party and the main beneficiary of the comrade's subs.

Simple maths equation for these gob$hites:

1 divided by 29 individuals = less attention to individual detail.

1 divided by 18 individuals = more attention to each individual's details. But that's not rocket science, is it?
.

10

Richardinho,

04/11/2007 02:31:51

Ok, suppose the SNP gov take this report on board and say, 'well, we were going to reduce class sizes, but since we read this report which said it wouldn't make any difference, we're going to spend the money on something else.'

Do you think the Scotsman et all would let them get away with this?

11

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 04/11/2007 03:06:49

My mother's experience of teaching in secondary was that alot of kids entered quite bright and left rather stupider. So a big rethink is needed. She much preferred the further education college where kids were motivated to learn. And thus she taught calculus to engineers and sums to nurses and joiners.

I never thought primary school was put there to teach you anything. It was part of the suburban lifestyle. Sitting on you bum (as you're trained) does not necessarly equate to learning anything.

Age 13 or so may well be a critical age for fixing your mindset. From my extensive reading, I had the impression that the world was led by competent people and would work fine while I devoted my self to learning Bach Suites and Beethoven Sonatas.

I was very far wrong! But when inform my fellow humans, as I feel compelled to, they feel the core of their existence is being questioned. Especially if they have paper qualifications and jobs and consider that they've understood more than enough of what you need to know.

Science as promoted may have more to do with what was on the television when scientists were age 13 than any study of greats like Andre Ampère and J C Maxwell.

As to Economics (counting sheep science) and Marketing (idiocy), if you have degrees in them, it wouldn't impress me a monkey's.

12

Porry,

at home 04/11/2007 08:22:01

Every educator knows, class size does matter (if you care for your students and don't just play the babysitter) as do teaching skills. It should be also universal knowledge by now that the younger pupils are, the more they are interested in finding out what the world is like, i.e. they show a natural interest in learning. Pupils should be supported during this phase rather than held back and bored to death which in turn would make them habitual loafers.

13

I'm no really here,

04/11/2007 09:10:28

I wish The Scotsman would get correct their grammar. The plural of "Expert" is "Researchers".

14

watcher4,

East Lothian 04/11/2007 09:16:24

The disruptive influence in classrooms dictate how children are educated. If teachers are paying more attention to the neds then they can`t educate the the kids who want to learn, so it will make no difference to class sizes as long as you have the pupils who want to cause havoc. Answer, bring back corporal punishment, but, of course the few do gooders of this country will dictate to the many.

15

Boy Wonder,

04/11/2007 09:36:58

It's high time we reconsidered what school actually achieves with educational policies that are constantly interfered with by politicians with their own agendas!

My daughter and four of their freinds are home-schooled. That means they are with friends and privately hired educators from 9am till 4pm every day getting all the attention they require. They've sat and passed scholastic exams with flying colours. And all without the bullying and posturing that goes on in the Education system.

Smaller class sizes will always work better.

16

A Better Way,

04/11/2007 09:54:10

The little Englander Eddie got demoted to fabricating stories to discredit the bloody SNP Scottish Government. Does this amount to treason by trying to undermine the Democratic Choice of the Scottish People. It might be time for Eddie to return to his beloved England if he is unhappy with the Scottish Peoples Choice of Government. To do any else is sedition.

Now as far as the Majority of the Scottish Grass roots people are concerned they want the bull taken out of the Education of Scottish Bairns. This lot of so called experts have produced a shambles in the Education of many Scots. They have had their go, now its up to us through the SNP to get rid of this vermin who talk so much shiiite while the kids still leave School without the basic three R's. We need a complte clear out of the New Labour Dregs left over from 10 years of failure. What we definately need is for Teachers to be left to do their job without all the internal politics of the Education Empire Builders. Start the sackings from head office ASAP. Setup an investigation group of business type people to organise the clear out and disposal of the trash. Lets get Education back in the Control of Teachers and Parents. Make each School an independant business unit which is Audited on a continous basis. If a Teacher is less concerned about their job than their new curtains get rid of them. Its time Teaching was recognised as a vocation again instead of a profession. A good teacher is a skill that cant be taught in Uni. Its something they have grown up to be, and who are smart enough to realise they need to enhance the natural ability with practicle experience. Anyone who disagrees can explain why everyone of my classmates in the 60's left school able to read and write very well. There was very little interference by so called experts back then and it worked.

17

Pilrig.,

Livingston 04/11/2007 09:56:29

Large classes are educationaly beneficial ?

18

Wes Q Mantooth II,

04/11/2007 09:56:38

#15 BW

We did the home schooling thing with our sons when we went travelling. When the eldest got to secondary school age he opted to start secondary school. At the end of the cliché he missed out on hanging out with his mates.

Similarly our youngest wanted to start primary, unfortunately his first experience on our return was a class at maximum capacity with a teacher who believed shouting was an educational aide. He woke up on the first school day after the holidays and announced that he wasn't going back. A small local school which had been saved from the axe was called, we visited that morning, they had a mixed age class of twelve pupils, he sat down there and then, sent us on our way and never looked back.

It would appear from this article that the only 'Experts' who weren't consulted were........teachers.

19

Bridged,

and tunnelled 04/11/2007 10:05:41

EVERYONE (including many on this board) think class sizes will ALWAYS benefit pupils. BUT go too small and class dynamics change, sometimes for the worse.

More importantly, the benefits gained are, in many cases, short term and are always VERY expensive to achieve.

The answer is not across the board class size reductions. it is to target class size reductions on areas which will benefit, and alongside this invest far more in the professional development of teachers (something which would suffer if resources and time were both ging into training new teachers to reduce class sizes across the system).

20

Wes Q Mantooth II,

04/11/2007 10:06:02

'Meanwhile,Scotland's leading parent group called on the government to ditch the policy, warning that much-needed funds could be better spent elsewhere.'


Err why is 'Scotland's leading parent group' nameless? Who is this mysterious body of Scottish parents? Are they listed in the phone book or did Eddie have to shine a light in the sky in a vain attempt to get a quote?


CHALK!

"In a lot of schools in Scotland, especially in rural areas, old-fashioned chalk and blackboards are the only teaching aids available."

Really most of our rural schools managed to procure smartboards under their imposed PFI easy payments scheme.

21

AnnieB,

Argyll 04/11/2007 10:18:43

So, in order to look like an opposition that's doing something, Labour and the Lib Dems are challenging a policy which, even if you accepted that it might not radically alter performance, WOULD DO NO HARM.

It challenges common sense to think that class size wouldn't leave the teacher more time to identify weaknesses and put support strategies in place. The only hope in this debate is that the Scottish general public, with its swathes of common sense, will spot the braying donkeys when it sees them.

22

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 04/11/2007 10:24:40

Do-gooding seems better intent than do-badding; the former used to be more of an amiable english eccentricity. In any case they don't form UK Government policy which seems to emerge from think tanks riddled with dogmatists and fundamentalists who worhip a mysterious higher being called the Market.

"Corporal punishment" which meant viciously belting the hand the child is going to write with and make things should have no place in scottish schools. It was a shameful spectacle and if it taught anything, it was if you are going do anything "illegal" don't get caught. Which most adults seem to have adopted these days whether belted or not.

Children, to me, don't seem be neds at age 5. How you stop them going that way needs some critical thinking so long as it's not by education "experts". Kids seem to expect some daily routine as do goats and cows, and some tasks they're personally responsible for, and get praise or criticism for. How do you put this into primary schools? Should not some transition to secondary education begin from, say, primary 5 by bringing external teachers into the classroom for their own specialities. Teachers are human too, and when kids see 2 or 3 interacting socially in the classroom they might try it as well. For children are great mimics.

Television is today's third parent. As we're running state schools, there should be a decent national brodcasting channel and I, for one, would probably watch it.

I wonder if foreign languages teaching should include foreign movies (with subtitles) which pupils could watch as a privilege if they behaved.

23

A Better Way,

04/11/2007 10:34:41

Another one who wants more PROFESSIONAL Teachers. We have been down that road and it has taken us to here. Time to cut the rubbish out. The basic education of our kids is failing with all these wannabe's chisling out a nice little earner for themselves. The quicker we cut the Snobbery of teachers being rated as professionals the quicker the kids will start to improve. As someone said earlier many teachers think that shouting is the answer. This to me is asign that they are incompetant and have been forced to take up teaching because they failed in the more difficult subject material at Uni.

Its about time that we develop a measuring system to clarify aptitude. Aptitude should be the first and most important criterior to be passed by a minimum of 80% score. Surely that would save us a lot of money teaching useless candidates who do more harm than good. Any others who score 80% or above are worth so much more to us than a thousand who only want the security and income from Education. There also needs to be a much larger percentage of male teacher as well. Kids are being let down by not having a good male role model to look up to. Women are very good at providing comfort to a child but if you look around society they fail in the most important areas. It is time that Society started to recognise that it is more important to a child to have a male teacher than a female teacher.

The proof is in the pudding when one looks at the failure of mothers to produce consistent people able to add to society. Unfortunately we will have to live with this Female Failure for the next Generation of wasters they have produced. No wonder so many of them cant get or hold on to a man. The Town is littered with them out there desperate and dateless.

24

,

04/11/2007 10:47:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

Bridged,

and tunnelled 04/11/2007 10:47:54

A Better Way - 80% of what? 80% of an easy exam? 80% of an impossibly difficult one? 80% of an irrelevant one? 80% of one that was thought to be relevant when we went to school but is irrelevant now?

I agree with you that we need the highest quality of teachers, and that quality is far more important than quantity. I'm not so sure we wold agree on much else on the topic, eg how to deliver those high quality teachers, and maintain their skills and motivation.

26

Porry,

04/11/2007 11:44:19

"'Meanwhile,Scotland's leading parent group called on the government to ditch the policy, warning that much-needed funds could be better spent elsewhere.'


Err why is 'Scotland's leading parent group' nameless? Who is this mysterious body of Scottish parents?"

Good question, WQM II, they are probably a combined 'comrade'-teacher group who got offspring and want to keep class size at its present level so they can demand a pay raise because there are "too many pupils" they have to look after (this will then be dubbed 'professional development of teachers', see above).
However, there is some 'comfort': There are high-achievers and there are low performers in the the teaching 'business' everywhere. I happen to know English (not Scottish) schools, and I have taught in American and German schools. There is not much of a difference, although in certain American classrooms the situation is extreme (not just regarding class size) to say the least.

27

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 04/11/2007 11:51:47

Bigger class sizes has always been the labour party policy and all the Hootsman is doing is lending support to this. By the way who is this 'leading Scotland parent group' maybe friends of the Hootsman's political editor Eh

28

Navvy,

04/11/2007 11:51:54

look at finland which has larger classes than most but which was acclaimed as having the best primary education. Finland has chosen to spend its money on the very best teachers. their primary teachers are paid high salaries thus attracting better teachers who would otherwise go into industry or commerce where salaries and rewards are usually better.

Small classes and fancy premises lose out to good teachers every time

29

Boy Wonder,

04/11/2007 11:58:15

#18. WQM ... some primary schools actually work quite well. It's in the cities that the real problems arise ... and state run secondary schools are not on the agenda for my kids. The oldest thought about it, but after a visit to one in the city, happily decided against it.

City schools are more like education factories. I've yet to meet a teacher who enjoys working in them!

30

Bridged,

and tunnelled 04/11/2007 12:38:01

cataibh - Labour had a policy to reduce class sizes in 1999 and 2003, so you misunderstand or misrepresent the position (and while I'm at it, the SNP say Labour didn't meet their last class size commitments - they did, albeit some of them weren't sensible eg class size reductions in secondary).

If the last commitments (P1 to 25 and Maths English in early secondary to 20) had not been met, there would be a great press campaign by now. In fact the herald showed in August that they had been.

SNP Ministers are spinning away trying to explain their own failings. It won't work. they misrepresented what they knew. They misunderstood what was needed. They will now try to blame the spending review, and Labour claiming they didn't deliver their class size targets, and then finally us for daring to increase the birth rate in the last few years.

None of it will wash. They knew their promises of class sizes at 18 were impossible in a 4 year term. If they didn't know they were incompetent. Either way they should have owned up as soon as they 'realised' their mistake.

31

Kobi,

04/11/2007 13:04:00

#8

"It is a universal (and it cannot be disputed) that, regardless of age group, subject or level of education, smaller class sizes are ALWAYS better for EVERYBODY." sez the Professor of education at Numpty University.


So if it so ruddy obvious, no doubt you, being such an world renowned expert on the subject, can produce reams of academic evidence and studies to back up this oh so stating the obvious conclusion?

The only studies that show this relate to children in the early years of school. But you being such a big expert on the subject would know all this, would you not?

32

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 04/11/2007 13:28:59

30# you may believe that class sizes have been reduced by labour I know they have not been reduced. Do you agree that class sizes should be reduced ?

33

karin m,

04/11/2007 13:33:42

14
Know many four and half year/ 5 year old neds do you? Did you actually know that the class sizes relate to primaries 1 to 3.

34

subrosa,

04/11/2007 13:41:45

There was a Panorama programme in the past few weeks that discussed the reading abilities of children in the UK. A wee school on the west coast of Scotland were producing nearly 100% reading ability and it was nothing to do with the class sizes. It was to do with a proven system and excellent teaching standards. Time our newspapers and politicians visited this area to find some answers.

35

Walter Ego,

Durness 04/11/2007 13:44:14

What about the Council Tax freeze?

36

Ayrshire Scot™,

04/11/2007 13:52:47

31 Kobi

"The only studies that show this relate to children in the early years of school."

Did you read the article or familiarise yourself with the policy before pontificating on it? The policy here is for primaries 1-3 - "the early years of school" - no doubt you will now be supporting the SNP policy?

37

Richard B,

Monifieth 04/11/2007 15:26:16

On the matter of chalk:-
For many years I had a sore throat regularly, which I always believed was due to the use of chalk.
When the chalkboards were replaced with whiteboards my sore throat stopped after about 3 weeks.
Now I only get sore throats occasionally.

38

Kobi,

04/11/2007 15:51:32

#36

Do try to read what I say before opening yer gob and spewing forth.

I was having a go at Professor Grandson of Winged Messenger for his inane and unsubtantiated assertion, which is why I quoted it. I was not having a go at SNP policy on the subject, which I agree is probably worthy of support, provided it is restricted to P1 to 3. I have posted previously in the past few weeks saying this.

I say "probably" as I have not read the review of the evidence that the article reports on, and will suspend final judgement.

39

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 16:04:52

It's almost common sense - lower class sizes means better attainment, across the board, right down to one on one tuition. SOS, who are you trying to kid, come on. Start reporting the news and stop framing complex policies into simplified polemics. This story is not informative about education policy, all it does is to use an as yet unpublished report to attack the government. What can we find, a thing a day to attack the government with. "Report finds class sizes of no 'lasting benefot to pupils'" but further on in the "Overall, research suggests a complex inter-relationship between pupil behaviour and their attitudes towards learning and their attainment. Class size may be one influential factor but the evidence is inconclusive." So which bit of this report is right, and is it even worth this space in the paper?
Stop playing poliitcs with education Mr Barnes!

40

Kobi,

04/11/2007 16:22:04

#39

"lower class sizes means better attainment, across the board,"

Says who? Some evidence of this "across the board" please.

41

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 16:58:25

Says me, and by across the board I mean from P1 to Masters level.

42

busbyfh,

The realm of reality 04/11/2007 17:22:58

Studies in England and the USA.........................

Yeah - And look at the average IQ of the folk in those countries. Do our pupils want to "attain" their levels - I hope not.

43

Bridged,

and tunnelled 04/11/2007 18:32:59

32. cataibh - well you'd be wrong then. Don't you think if it hadn't been met, SNP spin meisters wouldn't have been shouting from the rooftops about the 10 or 20 or 30 or 50% of schools where it wasn't happening.

The fact is, it is, with the same sensible flexibilities as the SNP will have over their policy in primary (same flexibilities = neither side can throw stones at the other), the commitments have been met. 25 in Primary 1 and 20 in Maths and English in lower secondary.

44

Bridged,

and tunnelled 04/11/2007 18:38:23

Wee Fifer - it's a pity your sweeping statement isn't confirmed by research studies across the globe then. Smaller classes can make a difference in some circumstances. They can make a valuable difference in some cases, where the costs are clearly worth it. But across the board = no proven benefits at a significant and proven cost.

45

Kobi,

04/11/2007 19:10:31

#41

Well you were clearly educated in a class of 250 if that is the level of your intellectual argument.

You are talking sh*te, and you know it.

46

Jan¡s,

London 04/11/2007 19:52:29

38. Kobi

very well said, good post.

47

The Maltese Falcon`,

Malta 04/11/2007 20:06:47

#45

Silly post, begone troll

48

,

04/11/2007 20:26:59
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49

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 20:33:44

#45 #44
So big class sizes do matter then (#45), judging by your last comment, which attributed my stupidity to being educated in a class of 250.
Try running a seminar at 'Numpty University', (as you put it earlier) with 18 people, and then try doing exactly the same thing with 8 people. The results speak for themselves. I'm sure teachers at every level will confirm the same. Nothing sweeping, just common sense.

50

,

04/11/2007 20:39:46
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51

,

04/11/2007 20:49:17
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52

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 04/11/2007 20:59:36

30# Would the London based media reported the SNP cmplaints - aye right.

53

,

04/11/2007 21:08:01
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54

Queen D,

Glasgow 04/11/2007 21:20:24

The smaller the class, the better.
More attention given to the individual child the better.
Sadly schools would have to use every broom cupboard and admin office to accommodate the extra classes.
I know some schools which already use such cubbyholes.

55

Kobi,

04/11/2007 21:22:48

#49

Sarcasm clearly does not work on here.

In any event, the academic studies which you have read in detail point out that reducing class sizes further below a certain level have no impact on learning attainment, for other than p1 to p3.

I'm sure teachers at every level will make no such confirmation of your theories.

Your continuing referral to common sense means you know you are talking pish. If you are so sure of your point, send me in the direction of some studies that back it up.

56

,

04/11/2007 21:26:10
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57

,

04/11/2007 21:55:57
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58

Kobi,

04/11/2007 22:30:55

#54

"The smaller the class, the better."

From tomorrow's Herald:

***New academic study concludes that just the sheer effect of punters repeating something on a web-site causes it to be true. They call it the wishful thinking effect. Marvellous.

Fat Eck claimed: "It's vital we spend much more money on education, as it is clearly needed amongst adult Scots."***

59

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 22:55:14

#55
You make me laugh, the desperation. I haven't seen you rushing to post any deadly studies to convince people of your point. What is the source for your claim that smaller class sizes only have an impact on p 1-3, and on what basis do they say that after that it doesn't matter - if this is so, why is it so, or is it just an assertion? If it is this article and the unpublished report, then it doesn't have any credibility. Probably few of us posting today know anything about this report, its methodology, the sample, and other important factors that need to be taken into account when scrutinising a piece of work to judge whether its results are valid or not. Unless you are party to more information, in which case please share. Don't expect people to go running to find previous studies to refute a report that is not even published. If you have to use insulting language then it means you know that you are losing the argument, evident to others, so keep doing that. If something credible comes along showing that class sizes don't matter, then fine, otherwise it just looks like what it is - political, which is where I think you are coming from chum.

60

Kobi,

04/11/2007 23:24:35

#60

Not all the knowledge people have is based on stuff found on the internet. However, one example, which has already been quoted on this thread at #6 - http://www.heros-inc.org/star.htm

It would be nice if posters might have actually read the thread before contributing.

My first post on this thread was in response to a proposition at #8 that "smaller class sizes are ALWAYS better for EVERYBODY."

My request, albeit sarcastic, for evidence for this sweeping proposition was ignored. I know that is because the evidence doe not exist.

You then pitched at #39 with "It's almost common sense - lower class sizes means better attainment, across the board", repeating the assertion made at #8, in different language. I would have thought that you would have read the thread to date before posting.

You did not post any evidence for your claim when requested, and resorted to the rather immature "Says me" in response. I again was sarcastic in response, which was the level of wit that your post deserved.

So, I did not make the original proposition and I am still waiting for someone on here to post the evidence I have been requesting since 1.04 pm to back up the "oh, its common sense" argument. I do not need to post something to justify my querying of an original proposition.

As I have also pointed out, I have not been disputing or supporting the study that is being reported as I have already said at #38 that I have not yet read it. I have been talking about the lack of previously published research to the effect claimed by posters on here.

61

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 04/11/2007 23:27:40

50# The lib dems have no policies other than to jump into bed with anyone who will offer a ministerial car.

62

Miss Jean Brodie,

05/11/2007 00:59:13

Experts ?

I’m an expert - and I say Scotland would be better off withgout governence from London - PROVE ME WRONG !

63

Brian Hill,

05/11/2007 01:51:30

Yok Finney says common sense would tell you that smaller class sizes are better and English Gringo mentions Eton, and in those two posts lies the answer.

Smaller classes are better for children to learn and teachers to manage. They equal less stress and more time for teacher per pupil.

Why do we think that schools like Lorretos, Edinburgh Academy, Heriots etc have better results in the main than State schools? Namely smaller classes, which people pay a lot of money for.

The SNP may not be able to deliver fully on this manifesto pledge by 2011, but they are already tackling it head on and should be applauded for it

Re twice as many class rooms being required. If a room is capable of holding 35/40 pupils I think we will find that most rooms will support a solid partition and an extra door making two classrooms out of one.

If tables are too big to be accommodated by the smaller rooms, get smaller tables, that will be be cheaper than building new classrooms

Is this right or am I missing something here?

64

Jeeemy,

23/12/2007 10:45:51
“Experts attack key SNP schools policy”
By EDDIE BARNES
POLITICAL #
Now having read through the article, I am having great difficulty in finding the “Experts”
My questions are to EDDIE; where are the experts in the article attributed to you and carrying your name?
Has your article been slashed by the Editor or a Sub?
Or were you really trying to hard to find something to write for the deadline, but had been at the office party first?



 

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