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Published Date: 23 September 2007
TENS of thousands of Scottish primary school children are being taught in overcrowded classes, many of which are at least 50% bigger than the official Government target.
The SNP administration has vowed to work towards P1-P3 classes of no more than 18 children but an investigation by Scotland on Sunday has revealed hundreds of classes with at least 28 pupils.

In Edinburgh, the average P2 class - mostly six-year-olds - is 29, just one below the maximum allowed and 11 above the Government's target.

In North Lanarkshire, the average for P1 classes is at the maximum of 25, and seven above the target.

Education experts last night estimated the SNP could only deliver its pledge by boosting teacher numbers by up to 6,000 to 26,000 and increasing funding by £100m a year just to pay the salaries.

The extra classrooms needed in most cases would further increase the cost.

Other experts have told Scotland on Sunday that setting a maximum class size in the early years of primary school is less important that making sure that the very best teachers are recruited.

In another blow for the Nationalists' policy, this newspaper recently revealed that the country's two largest councils - Glasgow and Edinburgh - would effectively refuse to implement the plan unless forced to by legislation.

Using Freedom of Information legislation, we asked all of Scotland's 32 mainland and island councils for their average class sizes for the first three years of primary school.

In many authorities, children are being educated in classes at or near the Government's current 25 maximum for P1 and the 30 limit for the next two years of education.

Hardly any primary classes are currently at or below the ambition of 18.

In Aberdeen City, the average P1 class is 24 and in Perth and Kinross it is 23.

North Lanarkshire's P2s and P3s have average classes of 28 and 29 respectively.

The average for North Ayrshire P3s is over 27. Aberdeenshire has 11 P2 and P3 year classes with 28 or more pupils.

Only five authorities had average class sizes within the SNP's 18-pupil target, two of them the islands of Orkney and Shetland.

Of the mainland councils, only Inverclyde, Borders and Midlothian had early primary classes averaging on or under the 18 limit.

Seventeen authorities supplied figures for how many P1-P3 classes would have more than 28 pupils. The total was 210, suggesting the national figure could be at least 400.

One authority, Glasgow, refused to supply figures, while a number of other councils - South Ayrshire, East Lothian and West Lothian - claimed they were still finalising numbers even though term started in mid-August.

A spokesman for Stirling Council said he believed the figures were "not relevant" and declined to release them.

Dundee pledged to provide the figures but failed to do so.

All these decisions are being appealed under Freedom of Information laws by Scotland on Sunday.

Teaching unions and opposition politicians said that they would hold the Scottish Government to its pre-election 18-pupil pledge.

Murdo Fraser, the Scottish Tory education spokesman, said: "What is clear from these figures is that there is a long way for the SNP to go in terms of meeting its pledge and that it will come with an enormous price both in terms of the extra teachers to be taken on and in terms of building the rooms for these smaller classes."

A spokesman for the EIS teaching union said: "Class-size reductions are vital in ensuring that all pupils have an opportunity to meet their full academic potential.

"Modern teaching methods, which place greater emphasis on individual attention for each child, make the larger class sizes of the past increasingly impractical.

"Teachers, parents and pupils have a right to expect local authorities and the Scottish Government to work together, both to meet existing class-size-reduction commitments and also to continue to further reduce class sizes in the future."

Professor David Bell of Stirling University, an expert in the economics of education who acts as adviser to Holyrood's powerful finance committee, said the SNP's target was "ambitious" and would come will a price tag of more than £100m.

He added: "Before we spend such significant amounts of money I would really like to be reassured that we have established beyond doubt that all the alternative ways of spending that money would not be more effective. I would like it to be made very clear that the evidence is unambiguous on this before we proceed."

The education chief of one of the few authorities to get any class numbers under the SNP's targets backed the smaller class sizes but questioned how easy it would be to pay for the staff to get class numbers down any further.

Ian Fraser, the corporate director of education and social work at Inverclyde Council, which has an average of 17.75 children in P2 classes, and 18.7 in P1, said: "The low class sizes are intentional, they are not because of low numbers of children.

"The research shows that it makes a difference, especially so for children from deprived backgrounds.

"But we have calculated that to get all class sizes in P1-P3 under 18 would require a 30% increase in our primary teaching staff." He added that he believed his figures would be representative for other mainland councils, and that his estimates excluded the costs of finding more room for the classes. There are 20,085 full-time primary teachers in Scotland.

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "These figures are informative and if anything they prove the need for more work to get class sizes down.

"We remain committed to reducing class sizes in the first three years of primary school in Scotland."

• FIONA Hyslop, the Education Secretary, claims that reducing class sizes will free up teachers to focus on individual pupils during the crucial early stage of schooling.

The goal is a laudable one, but it is clear that it will come at a hefty price.

Professor David Bell of Stirling University, an expert in the economics of education and an adviser to the Scottish Parliament, felt the pledge would require significant revenue and recruitment.

"In terms of pure wage costs, a primary teacher costs £40,000 a head," he said. "If you want a thousand more of them, that will cost £40m, and if you want 2,500 more of them, the total would rise to £100m.

"Of course, that would be a recurring cost and the issue of future salary rises will also need to be taken into account."

Bell said his sums did not include the costs of providing extra space and administration.

"There are around 23,000 primary teachers in Scotland, so 2,500 teachers would almost be like a 10% increase in staff.

"You would, of course, need to make a corresponding 10% increase in capital expenditure or make extremely clever use of existing facilities.

"With all that said, I think it is a reasonably ambitious pledge for a government to make."

Glasgow City Council has claimed it would have to build an extra 186 classrooms and hire 397 more teachers at a cost of £47m to comply with the policy.

Labour estimates that 2,500 extra primary teachers would be required.

Other education leaders also point out that in order to meet the pledge they would have to introduce 'composite classes', where two classes sit in the same room, with two teachers.

Marilyne MacLaren, Edinburgh's education leader, told this newspaper two weeks ago: "Parents believe this is going to be separate classes of 18 children, and that is not deliverable. What will happen is that there will be large classes of two teachers."

And does size really matter?


EDUCATION experts have questioned the emphasis that the Scottish Government is placing on limiting pupil numbers and have posed the question: does class size really matter?

Eric Wilkinson, Professor of Education at Glasgow University, said: "Undoubtedly, reducing class sizes would mean more individual attention for many children and would give the teacher the chance to concentrate on those in most need of his or her attention.

"However, the fact of the matter is that it is not going to make that much of a difference. It is the quality of the teaching, not the quantity of class numbers, that is the most important thing.

"If people think it is going to be a panacea which cures all of the problems in schools at a stroke then they are going to be disappointed."

Bob Lingard, Professor of Education at Moray House School of Education in Edinburgh University, added: "The research shows that in terms of effects on pupil learning it is the teaching practices of the teacher which really count.

"As such, you could reduce class sizes and achieve very little. The overriding issue is what teachers do in classes."

A headteacher from a Glasgow primary school, who did not wish to be named, said: "The current obsession with reducing class sizes completely misses the point. The key to improving standards is to produce high-quality teachers. I have experience of classes with 18 or 19 pupils making poor progress because the standard of teaching was just not up to scratch.

"Inversely I've seen classes with more than 30 pupils which have been extremely successful because of the excellent teaching provided."

The full article contains 1570 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 September 2007 8:43 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Teaching
 
1

Winged Messenger,

22/09/2007 23:39:31

I know. Why don't we just petition the SNP to do nothing about anything so that classroom sizes and Scotland as a whole remain exactly the same as they are now and nothing gets done towards improving the country in any way whatsoever.

I'll tell you what. Why don't we just throw in the towel right now and all go back to voting Labour like we did in the good old days when nothing got done about anything and everything was just nice and stangant the way we really really like it to be.

In fact, the Scotsman is right. It's not just classroom sizes that make a mockery of the SNP's targets, it's Scotland. Scotland makes a mockery of the SNP because Scotland is full of all sorts of problems that would make a mockery out of any effort towards resolving them. In fact, Scotland makes a mockery of Scotland. Yes, that's it. And the Scotsman makes the biggest mockery of Scotland of all.

Anyone else out there who'd like to make a mockery of Scotland? AM2 perhaps? Antifacist? Or maybe melgibson@bravehart.com, a real mothermocker if ever there was one.

2

somerferg,

oz 22/09/2007 23:40:37

#1 absolutely right but you wouldn't expect the Hootsman to let truth get in the way of a good anti-SNP rant would you?

3

Herr General,

Edinburgh 22/09/2007 23:46:48

This is truly beyond the pale, who on earth do the Scotsman's editors think their readership are? Morons? Anyone can see through this: the party have only been in government for a few months and yet the Scotsman think they are to blame for class sizes that have been too large for years?

It is totally acceptable for a newspaper to display political bias but this really takes the biscuit. The editors of the Scotsman are liars, plain and simple.

4

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

22/09/2007 23:47:08

G'day my fellow Scotchmen

I don't think the SNP were right to threaten to close schools that meet their targetsfor class sizes in Edinburgh on the grounds that they were undersubscribed.

This give the impression of their true colours, they will do nothing to rduce class sizes and just be complacent in blaming the te previous administration.

It is sadthe SNP want to close schools with small clase and that it took the people to protest to stop them.

The SNP are a disgrace on the education front, ven their tertiory promises have not been acted on.

5

Edward,

22/09/2007 23:48:24

What a farcical headline!
It was Labour who had been in power for eight years and done nothing about class sizes, despite promises at every election.
No that the SNP are in Government for exactly four MONTHS!!!! This idiot paper is insinuating that its there fault
Scotsman publications please grow UP!!

6

Col. Blimp IV*,

22/09/2007 23:49:21

I have seen one man pull a locomotive for 50m, with his teeth.

Inversely I have seen two men struggle to lift a wardrobe, up a flight of stairs.

So I look forward to seeing - Professor Lingard, Marg, Murdo and The unnamed Headmaster, the next time they have some furniture that needs moving.

7

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

22/09/2007 23:49:28

It upsets me the SNP have done nothing about this. They are just happy with hot air targets and headlines.

I wish they would take action.

8

Winged Messenger,

22/09/2007 23:51:17

#5

That's the spirit!

9

Winged Messenger,

22/09/2007 23:53:44

#8

Quite right, mellie my man. The SNP are just a disgrace the way they're trying to solve all these issues. What kind of government do they think they are, eh?

They're just a pretendee wee government in a pretendee wee country that has ideas above it's own station.

Best small country in the world, my assets? Best ssmall country in disney world more like.

10

Hambo,

22/09/2007 23:54:02

More lies and smears from the aptly named SOS.

11

Hambo,

22/09/2007 23:55:21

SOS -- Sh*t on Scotland

12

The Daleks,

23/09/2007 00:23:36

"The Scotsman makes a mockery of objective journalism."

13

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 00:24:29

#13

Quite right, AM2. Not only have the failed to fulfil that promise, but they even have the audacity to continue trying to fulfil the blooming thing!!!

I'm sooo with you. Scotland is such a sess pit of pretendiness. And the SNP are eveil. No, really, they ARE evil.

Last night I watched "The Exorcist" and the girl, you know the one, was speaking in foreign tongues and stuff and at one point you could hear her saying, in backward English, "I am the SNP, son of Beelzebub, wrecker of all worlds!"

Good film. Scary. Not as scary as Salmond though.

14

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 23/09/2007 00:25:14

As far as I am aware, no time limit has been set for this target and so it is just an open ended commitment or as they would call it a long term goal.

At a time when councils are being asked by the SNP to cut services, the SNP now expects councils to find more money for extra classrooms and teachers, so now it's obvisious instead of just blaming westminster for their broken promises they are also going to blame councils.

15

Senga Jean,

23/09/2007 00:26:48

Just wait till I tell you what I think after this lot have been in power for eight years. Oh that's Labour ; this lot have only been in minority power for a few months. So what you are saying is that the SNP Government are doing OK. So why did you not say so.

16

Alan Reid,

NZ 23/09/2007 00:32:34

melgibson, you should stick to ranting against the Jews and Israel, better still have another beer it will make you feel better.
The SNP have only been in power for four months. After fifty years of Labour (mis)rule, it's going to take a long time to sort out the mess that the last lot of corrupt numpties left us.

AM2, your right they haven't achieved that, but like I said it will take time to sort out the mess.

17

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 00:37:36

ALEC SALMOND ATE MY HAMSTER!

18

Boy Wonder,

23/09/2007 00:40:02

And the Hootsmon on Sunday continues to blame the SNP for all of their predeccors' sins! How very democratic and unbiased of them!

Honestly, this rag should be damn-well ashamed of the stand its taking! Because, they'll never see Labour or Libdems in charge again as more evidence of their chaotic 8 year reign comes to light.

And no Annabelle ... I doubt your party will get any disaffected voters. The Tories are a joke!!!

19

JayMac,

a place 23/09/2007 00:40:26

Stupid joke of a paper. The Scotsmans so warped it would have given Das Reich a run for its money. God knows how the SNP is going to survive a year let alone 4 years when the entire media led by this joke is constantly hounding it for no apparent reason

20

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

23/09/2007 00:49:03

G'day my fellow Scotchmen

It is extremely disspiriting to see the disenchanted SNP voters writhing with denial intheir dispondent state.

"I pledge to make everyone a millionaire" said Salmond. The newspaper reported it had not happened and that he had not released details of how he was going to do it, or how he was going to finance it and missed his own dates for begginning.

"But he did promise" said the dispondent SNP voter, "at least he promised."

Like the poor orhpans at the orphanage they slowly realise, daddy doesn't care, the slow realisation that people will say anything to make you happy in the short term. But they don't care, and you are all alone.

Now, let's concentrate on removing this guy. Don't worry you SNP lot, Tommy Sheridan will give you free football tickets, you can vote for him.

21

Sierra Foothills Scot,

23/09/2007 00:56:09

"Crammed classrooms make a mockery of SNP targets" should read "Crammed classrooms make a mockery of the previous Scottish Executive".

Just one more example of biased headline writers and their editors.

22

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 01:09:41

#21

G'day Mel!

Wow. You're so right I almost farted in front of my mother. I wish everyone in Scroatland was like you. You're my hero.

That scene in Bravetart where you said, "Yeah Baby, lay it on me, you birty ditch," was just the height your infinite powers.

Quite right you are about how the SNP promise and pomise us all that we'll all be ziollionaires and deliver nothing but used underwear. Whit winkers!

I much prefer how Labour used to promise us how they'd make us all poor. At least they kept it!

23

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 01:11:14

SUPER CALEY GO BALLISTIC SALMOND IS ATROCIOUS!

24

Col. Blimp IV*,

23/09/2007 01:14:00

I see Eddie Barns is going to join us online at 1.00am tomorrow.

If you click on his smarmy mug it sends you to a semi-secret article, that he has written about Wendy getting gubbed at FM-Q's the other day.

If you didn't know the facts or had never read any of his other stuff, you would probably come to the conclusion that he was a fairly impartial, decent sort of chap - for a Journo.

25

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

23/09/2007 01:27:12

#27 Giday Scotch tribesmon Benthehoose

It is sad to see you still shouting about Labour, they ae not your problem, the SNP are. Please cast aside your silly ranting as that is the prerogative of the opposition.

Whathas the SNP done to address the problem?

In Edinburgh the SNP came up with a disasterous plan to close the only schools that were already meeting the targets, the reason for that was they wer undertood.

A wse man does not ask the intentions of another, his actions will speak for him.

You are angry, I unerstand and can see that, this newhope the SNP promised you was all a lie, and you feel let down.

26

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 01:31:53

#28

Mel Boy. Can I offer you favours. You know the kind I mean, don't you.

I just think the sun shines out your ears. Dude, you've been in China!

Where else could you have come across such knowledge as

"A wse man does not ask the intentions of another, his actions will speak for him."

I couldn't agree more. A think a wse man is really exactly the kind who wouldn't ask for the intentions of what another intended in order to make himself think that the wse man will be speaking for him about his action sthat the non-wse man is thinking about in terms of the intentions that the wse man is thnk about him in terms of.

Right?

You are so clear that the sun shining out of your ears shines through me.

27

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 01:37:06

Children,

If you look at the photo that accompanies this article, there's only about 12 kids in the class.

Isn't that proof that the SNP are reaching their targets?

Just saying.

28

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 01:41:16

AM-sock-it-2-'em!

Yes yes yes. You DID make your opnion clear enough, just like melgibson,com above with his ancient Chinese wisdom (I hope you don't mind me mentioning foreign people in the same sentence as referring to you. Sorry).

But, can I ask, I mean, I c got a bit lost when you said Bill from Glasgow, and then Prof Bell, and I wondered...

Is that Bill and Bell the famous flower pot men?

And yes yes yes again! The SNP are sooo like rank amateurs.

I really wish we had the Labour professionals sorting out everything liek they were beofre. Like making sure that classrooms were bursting full of kids like maggots from the stomach of a dead cat.

But most of all I wish I were you, AM2.

29

,

23/09/2007 01:43:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 989159, Article id was mapped to record!
30

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

23/09/2007 01:44:29

#30 G'day Scotch tribesmon winged messenger

You are right, I had not made myself clear in the prior post. Saturday night booze.

A wise man does not ask the intentions of another, his actions will speak for him.

What a mean is that the SNP are paying lip service to this idea, but that it is only talk, their actions say something else.

The SNP tried to close schools in Edinburgh for being undersubscribed, when in fact the class sizes in many still exceeded their targets. I don't think anyone can believe they are serious about their plans, they have not even began recruiting and their are Scottish teachers that need to move south to get a job.

It is painful watching the SNP trying to close schools for having small class sizes while trying to claim they are reducing class sizes. Thank god the community managed to stop them, even though they were undemocratically thrown out a public meeting by the SNP.

31

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 01:58:53

#37

Um.... um.... um...

OK!

Yes, man, the SNP was shutting down those schools. Not just that but planting bombs in thethem!

What do you thnk about my theory. The SNP are Al Queda and Salmond is really Salvador Ben Ladin with his beard shaved off.

Everyone is searching the globe for Ben MacFadden and, like, he's here people! Right infront of your big fat noses!!!

If the SNP have their way, they will not only not reduce class sizes but will brain wash our children with histories of William Wallace and Robert the Bus.

And then our children will grow up wanting to wage war on the Englands, with plotting invasions like we do in Iraq, except th English won't know we're there because we're a Scottish mafia but bigger!

And then, when the Apocalypse horsemen come riding out of the skies, after Salmond summons them, they'l sweep pver England with war and famine and èplague and stuff while in sCOTLAND ALL THE BRAINWAHSED KIDS WILL BE FEEDING THemselves on fried mars bars and the water of life and will think thesmelves destined to live in eternity with a hundred virgins each. Women, Not trains.

So, yes, Mel, I agree with you. The SNP are so bad that they will eat our children in order to reduce class sizes.

32

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 02:00:47

Thomas the Tank Engine

Robert the Bus


<Sorry, just thinking aloud

33

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

23/09/2007 02:13:26

#42 G'day scotch tribesmon Benthehoose

I'm not going to fall your diversionary tactics, this article is about the SNP's shameful and unrealistic election promises.

Closing schools and selling them in Edinburgh will not achieve those targets, quite the reverse. All I have seen in my area is the SNP trying to close down schools and sell them. And they have the cheeck to claim they are reducing class sizes.

34

Spotter,

23/09/2007 02:16:05

murdo playing fly/lie guy again -it blackens his soul

how many weeks have the SOS been at this

Alex really has to looks at what gov advertising is going the way of this paper

we can't have our taxes wasted advertising in a paper on the bones of its arse and burning its remaining credibility weekly

35

Winged Messenger,

23/09/2007 02:21:24

#44

I know what you mean!

i went out to get a paper the other day and there's a school across the road and there was a squad of SNP tartan shirts with hammers nailing it shut and throwing out all the children who were eaten by big west highland terriers that the SNP had with them

Then, I went out again for a paper, and I saw the very same thing with the very same school. It's all I see in my area these days, There are no cars, no people. It's like Invasion fo the Body Snathcers except that there are SNP tartan shirts instead of big people pods. It's all I see. I don't see any impovements to street lighting. Just the SNP closing down schools. Over and over again.


#43
No, not gas. What we're going to do is stop them from getting free milk so that they don't grow and eventually evapourate. Thatcher did it and she's a goddess of righteousness. Brown is following her example too because he's part of the Scottish mafia and is all part of our great big plan to bring the world to an end.

36

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

23/09/2007 02:31:41

# 46 G'day scotch tribesmon winged messenger

I feel sorry for you, that does sound bad in your area. Fortunately here in Edinburgh the people protests and despite the SNP's undemocratic behaviour at the beginning the protests went on and the people managed to prevent the SNP ruining and crippling education in the capital.

I suggest you rally some support, with no effective government in place now the SNP have taken over, it seems it is the job of the citizen to knock on the doors of power and spell it out to them what needs done.

I can't wait until the next set of election and we get a chance to get rid of these madmen who are no doubt drawing up plans to close and sell more schools while all the time pretending to be reducing class sizes.

37

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

23/09/2007 02:34:09

G'day my fellow scotchmen

The economic expert said to achieve these targets more space and teachers will be needed. Can someone from the SNP answer me this.

Why does teh SNP think it can achieve these goals by closing schools and selling the land and buildings?

This seems to me like a contradiction.

38

T. MacIntosh,

Toronto 23/09/2007 02:42:04

Here we are again.This outhouse rag ignores the fact of 6 billion odd pounds to buy dinky toy trams and nothing to health and education.
The government can meet it's goal given time though.The promise shall be kept by next election we are sure.

39

Guru Gordon,

US 23/09/2007 02:42:36

The headline is a disgrace to journalism. Might it not have been more accurate to read "Crammed Classrooms make a mockery of Labour claims on educational progress"? For how long have the SNP Government been in power? Who was in power for the previous 8 years of the Scottish parliament? Yes Hootsmon, reality, like Scottish Labour, sucks. Stop trying to sweep it under the carpet as part of your on-going vendetta against our newly elected and first true Scottish government.

40

Kilted_kangaroo,

Australia 23/09/2007 02:46:29

Well done the SNP for having a vison. Boo to the Scotsman for making previous poor management look like the SNP's fault.

However, Australia is such a gorgeous country that everyone who disagrees with teh SNP's actions and policies are all welcome to come here and snipe from a distance and leave those who want to get action taken to get on with it in peace and quiet.

41

The Forgotten Princess,

Blacksburg 23/09/2007 03:12:18

Ladies and gentlemen take my advice. Pull up your skirts and slide on the ice.

42

The Forgotten Princess,

Blacksburg 23/09/2007 03:13:45

25 is not too bad a size of a class, even in primary school, but anything over that becomes too much. What about teacher's aids and assistants?

43

The Forgotten Princess,

Blacksburg 23/09/2007 03:16:23

Answers to solutions in school issues are always difficult to find.

HAPPY DIGGING GENTLEMEN!

44

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 23/09/2007 03:59:09

Out of curiosity I dug out an old school photo from primary, 38 in that class ............... 1 absentee .........

45

,

23/09/2007 04:00:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 989296, Article id was mapped to record!
46

Statsman,

23/09/2007 04:26:31

The Scotsman Group are becoming really boring with this constant SNP bashing. It's completely transparent and tiresome.

I'm not even an avid SNP supporter. This propaganda journalism is embarrassing.

47

The Forgotten Princess,

ArchaeologicalDigSite 23/09/2007 06:24:03

Well, I bet she had 25 reasons not to join.........starting with #1 being that she was entirely too beautiful for the rest of you, #2 she had morals #3 she possessed integrity, #4 She was a Christian, #5 It was against her cult-ture, #6 She did not believe in having her privacy invaded, #7 She would not lower herself to follow others around, #8 It was time for tea, #9 She thought some of them looked atrocious in their wigs and dresses, #10 She did not want to trip on the glass slipper they left behind, #11 she could not tolerate lies and deceit, #12 she could smell their jealousy, #13 she knew how valuable her secret was #14 she was busy preparing to dig up an old crown, #15 she was preparing to dig for the sceptor, #16-24 are none of your d#*m business, #25 the 1 absentee was temporarily absent from the photo. But I am very much here. AND I WILL BE, whether you like it or not.

So happy digging to you, too, Fly Fifer. Sorry to note that all you have to dig for is old photos.......boring........fly away........fly away..........

48

The Forgotten Princess,

ArchaeologicalDigSite 23/09/2007 06:25:41

Note: the post above, #58 is in reply to The Fly Fifer post of #55

49

Pocket Dictionary,

23/09/2007 06:42:15

In my quest for honest, objective reporting and comment I may have to ditch this rag for the Sunday Sport.
Alternatively, I could buy the Sport to hide the Scotland on Sunday, just in case the neighbours see what I have bought.

50

Riley Hamish,

edina 23/09/2007 06:45:00

#59 Forgotten...(as in INSTANTLY FORGOTTEN)

My god........the earlier posts were bad enough.......but when you felt you had to write back to explain it all to us.........AAAaaarrrggghhh !!!
Go back to bed Ma'am !!

51

,

23/09/2007 06:46:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 989425, Article id was mapped to record!
52

Mikey,

23/09/2007 06:47:12

I've just realised the 'AM' of 'AM2' stands for 'Ard Macha!'

How silly of me not to pick that up earlier! The man's a republican agent provocateur!

53

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 07:17:00

Another Sunday, another anti-SNP story in Scotland on Sunday. Yawn.

If it only takes five months of government to sort all the country's woes, where is the Scotland on Sunday campaign to expose and hold accountable a Labour party responsible for 50 YEARS of abject failure on every front? Housing- some of the worst in Europe! Education - some of the worst in Europe! Health outcomes and healthcare - some of the worst in Europe! Economic growth - some of the worst in Europe! Employment - some of the worst paid, low productivity jobs in Europe! Nepotism in local government appointments, sectarianism, etc, etc, etc.....

Come on, SoS! Do your job as a so-called newspaper and expose the guilty, not continually criticise the people who have to clean up the mess.

54

IanAyr,

Leiden, NL 23/09/2007 07:38:27

I think it is terrible that in just over 100 days the SNP have not completed building new classrooms, hired more teachers and reduced class sizes.
If New Labour had made that promise I am sure it would have taken them longer.

55

Scotsgait,

somewhere in cyberspace 23/09/2007 07:48:55

"Crammed classrooms make a mockery of SNP targets"

So which should be damned - the class size that has been inherited or the SNP's target ?

Ambivalence v ambition.

56

Bridged,

and tunnelled 23/09/2007 08:05:50

a lot of hot air and irrelevant information/opinion both in the article and in comments on the bulletin board.

The issue is not whether the target has yet been delivered (how could it have been, just 4 months after the election).

The question is when the commitment will be met. In 2011. I don't think so.

When it is not delivered on time, will the SNP tell us when they knew it was not deliverable in a 4 year term. It is unbelievable they were not told in their first week or two in office, so why are they maintaining the myth that they can do it in their 4 year term?

57

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 08:06:49

In principle, the SNP's proposal for reduced class sizes is a move in the right direction, and it strikes the right chord with parents everywhere.
However, it would appear that the previous Labour administrations, despite recruiting more teachers, made very little attempt to tackle large class sizes or, the local authorities simply wasted the financial provision in other areas?
A recent report also found that the majority of local authorities are against this measure because they claim they still do not have enough funds, at a time of excessive Council Tax payments?
In Scotland there are still many members of political parties in local government, who do not consider
it worthwhile to spend large sums on education, when they can waste it on their worthless, pet projects!

58

Bridged,

and tunnelled 23/09/2007 08:28:42

Lachie - the Lab/Lib dem commitments were to reduce class sizes in English and Maths in secondary, to reduce P1 to 25 and to increases teacher numbers to allow more specialised teaching, particularly in primary.

The figures in S on S's article appear to show the P1 element has been successfully met, and I recall some stuff in the Herald last month which suggested the secondary class size ones had been largely met as well (though only largely met - there were exception).

59

Gordon,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 08:54:38

Highest class sizes in Labour heartlands.

Refusal to comply without legislation from those Education Departments with the biggest levels of PPP/PFI.

Do I need to say any more?

60

livilion,

livingston 23/09/2007 09:20:41

The big story this week has got to be the closure of Pumpherston and Uphall Station Community Primary School Uphall Annex.

Inspite of assurances on reducing class sizes in primary schools, all four pupils will now have to make alternative arrangements.

The excuse West Lothian Council have used is that the HSE have declared the school's windows are unsafe.

61

Keke,

Aberdeenshire 23/09/2007 09:21:05

Good headline, but how do you make a mockery of a joke?
King Alex is proving to be as much use as a chocolate frying pan. Words come easy, deeds need action and thought, Mr. Salmond has too much of one and none of the other. Just another politician swanning about like royalty hoping no one will notice the empty space he's yet to fill.
Independent Scotland? not with that at the helm.

62

livilion,

livingston 23/09/2007 09:27:34

65. Rulesbutnotrulers
As with sex, the number of individuals involved can have a direct relationship on satisfaction, depending on whether you are on the giving or the recieving end.

63

Bruce's spider,

23/09/2007 09:29:34

Even The Scotsman plumbs new depths with this abysmal headline - give the SNP a chance. Things would have been a lot more interesting if the scottish people had possessed the cojones to vote in a majority SNP government to try and really change this country for the better after years of Labour indolence.

64

Toast,

23/09/2007 09:31:41

Thank Labour lies for the state of our education system they systematically failed to make every target they set,the scotsmans is a disgraceful rag with its bias,hopefully labour will never regain power as their incompetence will take a generation to fix.
#75-what planet do you live on.

65

Calum Crubag,

23/09/2007 09:37:57

A disgraceful article. Murdo Macleod should be ashamed. Nair ort amadain.

Only a few weeks ago this same paper made a big noise out of some council's oppositon to SNP plans to reduce class sizes.

The Scotsman is a disgrace.

66

Aqwes,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 09:38:07

"Labour Fails to Meet Class-Size Targets"

67

morris,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 09:42:53

1 (and just about every one after that)

Indeed.
Its not the SNPs targets which are mocked here,they are desireable enough. Its New Labour s record in office which is a shambles on just about every count!If this publication wants to conrinue selling copies it had better show some balance in its political posturing because Scotland has changed and will continue to do so.and this toilet roll may be susrplus to requirements if its not careful

68

An Taghan,

An Tir Iosal 23/09/2007 09:43:40

Class sizes make no difference to education. Kick out the peasnts' children who don't want to be there, and ho ruin everyone else's opportunities, and education would improve tenfold.

69

livilion,

livingston 23/09/2007 09:44:18

As part of the programm during his first 100 days in government the First Minister announced the recruitment of an extra 300 teachers and the creation of an extra 250 teacher training places.

The government allocated an additional £40m to councils to use towards reducing class sizes and expect them to use it for that purpose.
Glasgow got an extra £2.17m and Edinburgh an extra £2.34m.

Glasgow city council said it would have to build 186 more classrooms and hire more than 350 new teachers to meet the SNP pledge, at a cost of £47m - £7m more than ministers have so far allocated for the scheme across Scotland.

If this program had started on the 4th of May, what impact would it have been reasonable to expect by September?

This is a four year program.
Get real folks.

70

livilion,

livingston 23/09/2007 09:52:10

79. Rulesbutnotrulers, Don't blame me,
Sorry I thought your real name was Swiss Tony.
I imagine that in a very real way teaching primary school classes is like making love to a beautiful woman, the more kids she has the more difficult it is.

71

wisdom,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 09:59:15

There is more than enough wealth and money in Scotland to educate our children properly...Mr.Salmond should dig deep into The Edinburgh Financial Institutions,oil and the income and wealth in private hands.There is a surplus of money which must be used for the public good and what better use could it be put to than the education of Scotland's Children.

72

Duke,

23/09/2007 10:07:51

What is it with the Hootsmon and the Hootsmon on Sunday? These so called quality "newspapers" are just rags nowadays and just aren't worth buying. This is hardly "an investigation" by the SOS everbody knows that the classroom sizes are still over what the SNP want, but give the SNP time and they may achieve what they want. Lets face it years of Labour promises have produced nothing.

73

Homo Sapiens,

23/09/2007 10:12:43

Wasn't it Labour that pledged to reduce class sizes, did they not make these pledges repeatedly before every election? Yet after 10 years of Labour promises nothing has changed.

Maybe we should give the SNP a fighting chance to improve the situation. However, with one hand tied behind their backs, and their inability to determine how to raise the revenue in Scotland, on one hand, and on the other being blocked by Labour, and Lib-Dems on every initiative... how will the SNP be able to raise the necessary funds?

Consider how many school classrooms could have been built, had the SNP been allowed to scarp the Edinburgh Tram white elephant that is going to cost the taxpayers well over the £600 million alloted?

74

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 23/09/2007 10:20:27

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Salmond is sticking to his manifesto and is doing a good job.

Trying to undo the evils of New Blabber and its perpetrators cannot be done overnight. Nobody said it would be easy.

Yours etc

Angus Whitton

75

melgibson2@snp.org.uk,

23/09/2007 10:20:59

#88 G'day Homo

Please remember the SNP actually tried to close schools in Edinburgh so you are just making things up when you say they want to build more.

They are actively looking at ways to shut them down and sell them.

I think the SNP members need some deprogramming from a specialist that deals in cults, they are blind to reality.

76

Breezy,

Argyll 23/09/2007 10:22:37

Do the editors of this newspaper really think that the people are gullible enough to swallow this article ? Seems so !
Just another example of New Labour and its mafia treating the people with contempt, and another reason of just why they are now in opposition.

77

eamon,

23/09/2007 10:32:43

I am totally sick of the meaningless anti SNP jibes of this paper. The mis-story last week, which treated the rantings of some idiot with no job if Scotland does not gain entry to the EU after independence, as if they were the position of European policy. Now this. Its not the fault of the SNP that current classes are overcrowded, they are trying to fix the problem. It seems this once quality paper has decided to become a rag. How long before we have the scotsman banner over a red background and Wendy Alexander on page 3. Can anybody recommend a decent Scottish paper which only publishes stories that have a point or a basis in fact. The Scotsman does not even make good toilet paper.

78

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 23/09/2007 10:37:04

#2 had it absolutely spot on - why bother trying to improve anything? - it is all the fault of those nasty gnats even if it's not. Just repeat lies and half truths again and again Scotsman.

It's after reading articles like this that blatantly try to spin this problem onto the SNP that I as an expat say "thank f*&k I don't live in the same country as the bas^&%rds that wrote this".

It may not be an overly eloquent sentiment to express but really how pathetic is the policy of the Scotsman?, it is infantile in the extreme.

Parcel o rogues an all that

79

eamon,

23/09/2007 10:48:10

The article says, that "Fiona Hyslops goal is a laudable one, but comes at a price". A higher price than doing nothing? or supporting the invasion of Iraq? or the needless trident upgrade? Priorities need to be looked at i think.

80

Alan B,

23/09/2007 10:55:22

#95 Personally i think smaller schools are generally better. Remembering back to the distant days when i was at school, i think the smaller primary was better than the much larger and less personal secondary.

It helps from the perspective of
-not getting lost in such a big environment
-bullying
-getting to school, walking etc rather than having to travel longer distances.

Many pupils struggle with the transition from primary to secondary. Many bright pupils in primary seemed to lose their way very quickly after moving to secondary.

I also think this has to do with having so many teachers, in so many classes. It is difficult for teachers if suddenly they have a hundred new pupils in a year that they have to get to know, particularly if u do not see these pupils for a large amount of time. this is made worse if the teacher is new to the school and u multiply this by another few yrs worth of pupils.

81

Spotter,

23/09/2007 11:03:37

poor poor murdo
sad sad day he left the croft
and got in with this bad crowd in Edinburgh

what does it profit a man if he writes all the misleading articles in thw world yet suffers the loss of his.............?

82

SEUMAS,

Tain 23/09/2007 11:08:54

What the hell is going on here, the S.N.P. minority government have been in power for a whole four months, why haven't sorted out this situation, after all it has only existed for the past eight years at least.
THIS RAG AND IT,S APOLOGIES FOR JOURNALISTS
IS BECOMING A CONTENDER FOR THE BEANO PRIZE--QUALITY NEWSPAPER--UGH!!!!!!!

83

AyrshireScot,

23/09/2007 11:15:07

Seumas

was thinking the same thing myself. If Scottish children are being taught in horrid, over-crowded class-rooms could this not reasonably to attributed to the previous Labour/Lib administration. Or do the Hootsman expect the SNP to have re-built the schools in 4 months?

84

Allan (Jock) Hendry,

Aberdeenshire 23/09/2007 11:22:19

These class sizes, as we all know are a legacy of the Lab/Lib coalition government.
It is luducrous for the Hootsman to suggest that the SNP are responsible, which just further proves to me that in accordance with #99 note above the Hootsman is probably the best comic available.
This is definately journalism at its worst and comedy at its best!

85

livilion,

livingston 23/09/2007 11:23:06

#95. Methalions

The local primary school ten minutes up the road from me has only four pupils of different ages.
Should West Lothian council keep four primary school children in 'solitary confinement' and how many teachers and support staff should be retained to educate them?
Is this spending fair on other kids with class sizes perhaps ten times greater?

The local authority is letting the fabric of the building run down so that they can insist any initiative to move has come from parents.

86

Alan B,

23/09/2007 11:27:41

#101 What are the main reasons for the higher costs to run a smaller school?

The largest cost (i would imagine) staff should be the same, that is more to do with student, teacher ratio. Buildings? I could see adding to cost but is more a fixed one off cost apart from maintenance.

Other cost like admin should be the same. Purchasing should be done centrally ie a school buys computer equipment, books at price agreed by a bulk agreement by government. Amin staff could be shared over small schools. Or it could be seen a say one school, 3 smaller campuses. rather than having head, deputies and assistent heads, u could just have one. There are different alternatives.

I am interested in where the higher costs would necessarily come from. (as said i can see building costs being the only significant, maybe i am wrong). never seen any figure on it.

87

Silence of the Yams,

23/09/2007 11:30:06

Maybe if we stopped giving free education to every immigrants dependent, Scottish children would have less crowded classes. Just a thought.

88

boybilly,

Portessie 23/09/2007 11:41:34

RE posts from melgibson2@snp.org.uk . Not sure if you are thick, stupid - or is it groundhog day? Like your hero Mel- slightly rabid and off the wall? We'll overlook his other bad bits. Try and think as if you had a finite resource and had to apply this resource for the greatest and maximum good instead of making cheap political points. By the way I'm not SNP and have been a Tory all my life. Labour has brought Scotland to its knees and the Liberals have been complicit. What a parcel of rogues.

89

Alan B,

23/09/2007 11:46:43

#109 interesting. i would to see it based on a comparison where the small school and large school have a similary student/teacher ratio to compare like with like.

90

Col. Blimp IV*,

23/09/2007 11:51:34

#98,99 and all. You are invited to click on the smarmy mug and the right of the article and ;

Join SoS political columnist Eddie Barnes from 1pm BST today for an online chat about the issues of the day.

Bring your own bile.

91

Col. Blimp IV*,

23/09/2007 11:53:19

meant to the right of the article

92

,

23/09/2007 12:04:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 989965, Article id was mapped to record!
93

MtnKat,

23/09/2007 12:05:44

ARE priceless.

94

FrankyB,

FrankyB 23/09/2007 12:40:51

Definition of a Scotsman:

honest, reliable, fearless, intelligent, hardworking, enlightened, occassionaly self-deprecating

Definition of The Scotsman
dishonest, unreliable, fearful, dumb, lazy, in the dark, always self-deprecating

I would hate to have to admit to being in any way connected with this Unionist Rag. Reading it is a must though, its like excavating for fossils.

95

Hambo,

23/09/2007 12:43:01

#26
Colonel - Let's see if he answers my questions:

"Eddie Barnes
Why did you blame the train crash in Cumbria in which an elderly woman died as the responsibility of the SNLA?
Why has no correction or apology been made for this 'mistake'?
Why are you a paid agent of MI5?"

96

Lindsey,,

23/09/2007 13:50:08

"CRAMMED CLASSROOMS MAKE A MOCKERY OF YEARS AND YEARS OF LABOUR RULE"

For goodness sake...the SNP have been in power for a matter of weeks.... and the state of Scottish classrooms is THEIR fault.

What a unionist rag.

Labour have had decades.....DECADES... of unfettered rule in Scotland.

No parent in Scotand is in any doubt that the blame lies squarely at Labours feet, and no amount of Hootsmon unionist propaganda will erase the memory of decades of Labour mismanagement of our education system.

PS... the SNP IS taking steps to fix Labours mess... and will build the education system our kids deserve.

97

Lindsey,,

23/09/2007 14:04:14

This report simply highlights the catastrophic effect on Scotlands schools by decades of Labour rule.

Of course it has nothing to do with the SNP who have been in office for such a short period of time.

But the SNP have been handed on a plate the opportunity to demonstrate their ability and desire to put Scotland first and build the type of country that reflects Scottish values.

Out with Labours foreign military adventures in support of rabid US NeoCons.

Invest the £billions saved in Scotlands Education, Health service and Infrastructure

Out with Labours planned new generation of nuclear weapons.

Invest the £billions saved in Scotlands Education, Health service and Infrastructure


Out with the Unionist delusions of grandeur and their attempts to portray Britain as a global power.

Invest the £billions saved in Scotlands Education, Health service and Infrastructure

This is what the SNP.... and only the SNP plan to do.

Give them time...

98

Boggle fey the Bog,

23/09/2007 14:12:44

Just a wee point aboot aw ra shoutin frae the gallus fellas in Glasca, they say thyre gonna buld 180 new classrooms and employ 350 new teechirs, whits aw this twa teechirs tae a rum!! an its gonna cost £47mil, noo if aw they teechirs is gettin 30grand a year then thats about £16mill leaves £31mil tae buld a rae classrums or £161000 + per rum ony buddy want tae jine a consortimum wie me tae bid fur them, maun we kuld mak a reel killun oot a aw they mad labur ejitts.
an we cood end up rich anaw,

For real the £47mill is a figure that the Labour Party in Glasgow 'magiked up' from no where, they fail to elucidate on whether that is 'start-up' costs or the total costs over what time period, a totally flawed statement from a totally flawed administration.

Across the border in West Dunbartonshire Labour told everyone PFI was the way forward, so they intend to close the best performing school in the area and sell the land...no not to rebuild new schools, but for housing (the Clyde Riverside Development) so not prizes there for guessing that ordinary people will not be able to afford to live there!!
They have not said where the money from the sale of these sites is going to be used.
Oh yeah and they forgot to mention that it would cost the people of West Dunbartonshire over £500,000,000 for the building and lease back over the term of the contact and at the end of it they would not own any of it.

As for class sizes the two 'New' 'High Schools' would have over 1500 pupils each, when educationalists all agree that Secondary Schools should have no more that 6 or 700 pupils....Go Figure.

Oh and as for the Hootsmaun .. it always was a $hite newspaper so it's no surprise that it still is a $hite newspaper.

The only newspaper in history to claim that it has the biggest readership in the country, based on the 'hits it has on this site' not the sale of ACTUAL newspapers, so basically if you want to fcuk them good and proper don't log on

99

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 14:44:36

Can I just mention that my partner actually went and bought a copy of this "rag" this morning because she wanted the glossy Edinburgh map.

And you get to see pictures of what people with more money than sense do to their Edinburgh flats.

And theres a whole weeks worth of TV and radio listings.

So much for you people who say it's a rubbish newspaper. If they gave away "Carry On" DVDs like the Sun, I'd buy it every day.

100

Col. Blimp IV*,

23/09/2007 14:46:07

#119. Hambo

I'd give him about 3or4/10.

I thought the BTP were there to detect fare-dodgers and drunks?

101

Col. Blimp IV*,

23/09/2007 14:54:50

#124. Sassenach Observer

Some valid points there and if they printed it on more substantial paper, the kids could make some cracking paper aeroplanes and hats with the rest of it.

Something for everyone!

102

Col. Blimp IV*,

23/09/2007 14:57:26

#124. Sassenach Observer

Some valid points there and if they printed it on more substantial paper, the kids could make some cracking paper aeroplanes with the rest of it.

Something for everyone!

103

Geoff,

South Africa 23/09/2007 15:48:56

Inane headline-again as a Unionist I have to say that such stories do your newspaper no good in terms of credibility. In all fairness the SNP should be given time to rectify/not rectify the situation.

104

Turbo,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 16:45:35

How long do you think it takes to train a teacher likes!
After four months you are expecting to have the job done.... do you think that your paper deserves the extra pences that other rags out on the news-stand after coming out with tripe like blame the Nats coz the schools are no sorted yet! I tell you, I'm not the most educated guy in the world, a long way off it. And I don't know the correct timescale for training up a teacher to work with Scotland's kids, but I'm sure it takes a hell of a lot longer than 4 MONTHS! It maybe only takes 4 months for you to train as a journalist for your rag in order to come out wi p**h like that...... I'd get mair sense oot o the VIZ!

105

Kitti Kat,

23/09/2007 16:47:04

29 kids to a class? I hope that there is a "teaching assistant" along with the teacher in a class that size.29 students in a high school class is one thing but in the early years, 20 should be the max unless the teacher has an assistant. And I hope that the teachers (especially those with large classes) are being paid well.

106

AyrshireScot,

23/09/2007 16:50:31

126 - Col B - on top form.

you do make me laugh

107

THE ROSS SHIRE RANTER,

23/09/2007 17:10:18

120 & 122
Lindsey,
Yer bang on, give them time and then let them be judged. Just a shame that the SNP haven't managed to roll out a wee bit more of how they're going to achieve the 18/1 thing across the country as yet..... their stated notion's been on the go a while now and they're drawing a lot of unecessary flak because it's no as transparent as it should be. Big task, give them ( a wee bit more ) time...... and if it all comes to something short of expectations, then the sound off merchants can have their say, - until then, they ar a' a "wee bit tedious".

108

thomas,

midlothian 23/09/2007 18:04:51

am2
when i went to school in the 1950s, scotlands education system was numero uno on the planet.
when the westminster government decided to alter the schooling methods and standards, we started to slide down the table.
we should not blame the labour numpties for this happening, but they have been the only party in power from then to now.
as has been noted the s.n.p. will get it right once we diconnect the labour numpties still in the system.

109

Chattta,

23/09/2007 18:29:04

AM2, 129

Dont understand the league table you published.

Where are England, Wales, and Northern Ireland?

Where is the Republic of Ireland?

110

Willie Macleod,

Wick 23/09/2007 18:29:10

#136 I agree with you, there will be a time for judgement, but this is not now. More time needs to given for any real assessment.

111

livilion,

livingston 23/09/2007 18:30:59

Remember this?

SNP Depute Leader Nicola Sturgeon MSP
10-04-2007
"The SNP are committed to building firmer foundations for learning and success by reducing class sizes to 18 in P1-3, increasing nursery provision by 50 per cent, piloting free school meals in P1-3 with health and fitness checks for young people.


"In contrast Mr McConnell has broken many of his key education promises, despite previously stating that education was his priority.


"The First Minister pledged to improve nursery education, yet Scotland lags behind England in nursery provision. He pledged to deliver class sizes of 25 in P1 and failed to deliver, with over 41 per cent of all P1 pupils in class sizes larger than 25.


"Mr McConnell abandoned a commitment to cut class sizes for S1and S2 English and Maths after failing to deliver and on top of this the majority of school children are not getting the minimum requirement of two hours of PE per school week.

"In education as in so much of Labour's record is broken promises and failure. People just don't believe a word they say on education any more, or on anything else for that matter. "

""Education, Education, Education""?

112

Turbo,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 18:41:18

AM2 # 129

With regards to your coments on Lindsey # 122
She is not talking Scotland down, she is commenting on the report in the paper. The paper trying to attack the SNP government, giving estimations from unionist sources on how much things are going to cost etc. Obviously if there is a problem there, then it existed before the SNP were elected!
Regardless of your list you print on how well Scotlands edutation is doing, the paper has a problem with the SNP and felt the need to have a go. Lindsay was pointing out that the go that the paper was having at the SNP's failings, were not infact the fault of the SNP, but previous govering parties.

113

thomas,

midlothian 23/09/2007 18:49:16

am2, for your information as i attended school, and often,because our teachers were the best on the planet. i need no seconder on this information as i lived it. any thing else you need to know?
feel free to update your knowledge any time you need.

114

thomas,

midlothian 23/09/2007 18:53:03

classmates of mine and others who schooled at this time are hopefully easy to reach via this site or your daily newspaper if the labour numpties in control are of the mindset to allow this to take place.
am2 you seem unable to accept the info as the truth,why is this?

115

Riley Hamish,

edina 23/09/2007 18:58:53

What a terrible article, and even worse headline........and with the SNP "in power" for less than four months, and the previous administration for EIGHT YEARS !!!!.
The co-authors are IDIOTS...
........................sack the daft bug***s NOW !!

116

boudica,

Glasgow 23/09/2007 18:59:52

Sorry class sizes do not matter as much as the Teacher who is teaching them ...Good teachers are more important but they seem thin on the ground ..

117

Riley Hamish,

edina 23/09/2007 19:01:48

What a STUPID headline.
the SNP are in limited power for less than four months......with the previous administration in power for the EIGHT preceding years !!
The co-authors are blithering idiots.
Sack Them NOW........TODAY !!

PS Hootsmon...you're going downhill VERY fast now

118

boudica,

Glasgow 23/09/2007 19:06:30

Livilion ...well you could say the same for the SNP as they are being spoken of as " All mouth , No trousers... so too speak " as most people now say Wee 1, no 2 Check Eck as shown his true colours and how he can do a quick u-turn on his so-called
" Princables" faster than clark kent can change into his superman outfit ....hehe

119

boudica,

Glasgow 23/09/2007 19:07:40

* " Principles"

120

Chattta,

23/09/2007 19:11:51

AM2, 148

Thanks, AM2.

I just wonder how such a Report can be published ranking the UK, then separately showing Scotland.

Similarly, showing the UK and separately Ireland would appear to count the six counties in the north east of the island twice.

Hence, the Report discredits itself.

121

Turbo,

Edinburgh 23/09/2007 19:21:24

#153 AM2, fair enough, what d'you reckon the best curry house in Glasgow is?

122

hill_billy,

23/09/2007 19:26:53

Class sizes of 25.. "oh the humanity"!! The SNP must save us from this tyranny! Tax payers, cough up your money now we need to conjure up more teachers out of thin air

"But we have calculated that to get all class sizes in P1-P3 under 18 would require a 30% increase in our primary teaching staff."

Why not pay teachers 30% more? I bet the quality of the staff would leap and you'd find the kids would get much better education

123

boudica,

Glasgow 23/09/2007 19:35:02

AM2...It doesnt sit well with the SNP that Scotland does well it doesnt fit their remit .....and shoots them out of the water ...

124

boudica,

Glasgow 23/09/2007 19:36:42

154 ...you should ask Wee Ecks Pal Mr Saeed that question ..I am sure he knows were the best curry houses are

125

Caora Dubh,

Dachaigh 23/09/2007 19:53:04

Education is as complicated as the human mind. This is the first article where I have read that there is real evidence that class sizes of 18 or below make a difference, especially for pupils from deprived backgrounds. This target presents huge financial and infrastructural problems.

When I was a primary school kid I had one truly outstandingly good teacher. After teaching the class together for 75% of the time, she then found engrossing self-teaching games and activities for the majority of children to do, while she devoted the remaining 25% of class time to children who were having severe problems. This had two effects: the bright kids weren't held back by the class's centre of gravity and soared to educational levels well in advance of their peers, while the weaker kids were brought much closer to the class average.

This is also a good argument for "streaming": let the stronger learners sit in larger classes of up to 35 children (like I had all through school), while the weaker children sit in much smaller classes. Streaming could even be for half the school day only, so that the children don't feel stigmatised.

126

Salt Horse,

Oor Villa Napoli 23/09/2007 20:20:46

Dear Edtior,

You should be ashamed, as there is 160 comments on this topic (including mine) on nothing of particular note - Labour screwed it up and now you're attempting to pin it on the SNP.

Childish non journalism which is indicitive of the poor standards this paper has continued to print.

I'm surprised I still let you send me daily reminders to my hotmail account.

Do Scotland a favour and print something interesting and free of spin, media scum!

D

127

AyrshireScot,

23/09/2007 20:49:29

142 - Turbo : spot on. Am2 is just using his usual feeble sophistry, which is as transparent as it is predictable. Anything about Scotland's future independent is negative, any comment on the under-performance on Scotland within the union is twisted to "talking Scotland down". Meanwhile the Union has been pushing Scotland down in very real terms. It really makes you wonder why unionists haven't tried improving Scotland's economy or services as a way of keeping it in the Union instead of syphoning off £200 Billion in oil revenues and letting Scotland languish at the bottom of th European growth and health tables for decades.

People who support independence are quite right to be negative about the effects of the union -whether on schools or economic underperformance with its consequent social impact, and right to be positive about the ways we can improve this.

128

Paula,

23/09/2007 20:54:14

#129 Do you know something PISA doesn't as it lists participating countries and Scotland is not one of them. The UK as a whole is though.

Do you have link for the education rankings which show Scotland as being separate? I would be interested if you do. And so would Liz Levy who is the project manager for Scotland, under the banner of the UK.

129

BMeister,

23/09/2007 21:45:23

#1929 AM2
So Scotland is 8th and UK is the 11th best because we have control over our nown education system.

Just imagine how much better we could do if we had control over everything else.

130

BMeister,

23/09/2007 22:00:54

I was actually trying to follow on with a coherent line of argument from yesterday's posts where the pertinent part of the story was centered around the argument of 'do the SNP mess things up and blame it on the union or do they improve things and then say we could do better if we had more powers'.
Did you forget this line of conversation?

131

AyrshireScot,

Ye Banks and Braes of Bonnie Doon 23/09/2007 22:05:42

168 - AM2

on health, yes indeed - Scotland is at the bottom for heart disease, life expectancy, cancer (WHO, EU and UK figures)

On economy, Scotland trails other small countries like Denmark, Ireland, Belgium, Finland, Sweden, Luxembourg and the Netherlands in comeptitiveness (IMO reprt 2006)
Scotland’s competitiveness rating has increased at a slower rate than the UK and remains well behind
comparable neighbouring nations (IMO report 2006)
Scotlands average growth in the past 25 years has been 1.8%, behind the UK (2,3%), the average of other small EU states (c. 3.5%) and Ireland (c 6%) (OECD 2006). In a country which has 'exported' £200 billion in oil revenues and exports more per head than Japan this is a scandal.
These are your union dividends. Scotland can no longer afford the risk of staying in a union, the hallmarks of which are economic underperformance, population decline and social under-achhievement.

132

BMeister,

East Lothian 23/09/2007 22:14:09

#166 AM2
What has that random collection of figures and contries got to do with Scotland being independent or not?.

You appear to have proved that any country can come fiirst, second or third worst in something or other.

Did you know the New Zealand Rugby team is the 2nd worst in the world at playing keepie-uppie with a toothbrush?

133

AyrshireScot,

Ye Banks and Braes of Bonnie Doon 23/09/2007 22:19:10

171 - AM2

Wendy ALexander had something to say on this :
http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1440432007

134

livilion,

livingston 23/09/2007 22:35:13

#149. boudica, Glasgow

Is that like being in favour of unilateral nuclear disarmament, multilateral nuclear disarmament, the nuclear non proliferation treaty, actively supporting CND, no to new nuclear power stations, to secure for all the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry of service, nationalisation of key national utilities, protection of the working classes from the bosses and the CBI, opposition to the conservatives and tory policies, monaterism and Margaret Thatcher. Education free and available according to ability to learn rather than ability to pay?

Perhaps you might indicate which policies the SNP or 'Wee Eck' have taken a U-turn over during their first few months tenancy of Bute House?

135

AyrshireScot,

Banks of Bonnie Doon 23/09/2007 22:35:32

174 AM2

no, life expectancy is a failry holistic measure of "health" - Scotland lags behind any cother comparable nation in Europe - areas of Glasgow have lower life expectancies than present-day Iraq or Beirut. Health disease, as the biggest cause of death in the developed world, is also a good indicator - Scotalnd has the worst record in the developed world. Behind all your sterile, repetitive nit-picking you give no impression of understanding that these health and economic statistics are a collegiative average of REAL INDIVIDUALS and real experience. The individual experience behind the statistics is morbid and shameful.

Scotland, with massive oil wealth and inherent economic potential, should have and could do much better for her people. We have to take control of our wealth and make it work for Scotland's people, fully, before we can really start making that happen.

136

The Forgotten Princess,

Blacksburg 23/09/2007 22:35:40

I do hope the issues with education are worked out soon. I have surmised for a time that some of my distant Scottish relatives are quite rude. I am beginning to wonder if they actually have a literacy problem in that they are not able to comprehend what they read.

It must be a mistake. Even though there are two of us seeing this, perhaps we must be mistaken. The people hovering around us as we grocery shop would certainly not be in any way related to us. Certainly, after I've made it clear to all that I abhor anyone invading my privacy and following me around the grocery, certainly, certainly none of my distant relatives would do that. They, of course, would not be here in the US, as they would be in Scotland. I've provided them with an email, and asked, that if any one of them wanted to meet me, to please use the email and arrange a meeting. I would indeed greet them with the same respect that they allow me.

I did have a clear memory in my head as to a map my father left with me, a secret map. It was in regard to some items my great grandfather brought with him from Scotland to the US and buried on his property.

I have asked for the harassment to stop. I have asked for the horrendicoot and the creepy little sidekick to be gotten off my back and out of my face.

AS PER CONTINUED HARASSMENT, THE MEMORY IS NOW GONE FOREVER. CAN YOU READ THIS?????

I now believe that the answer here is that my great grandfather (8 back) wants that stuff left where he put it.

137

AyrshireScot,

Banks of Bonnie Doon 23/09/2007 22:43:48

178 - Forgotten Princess

Any news on the documentary?

AM2, who posts on here, is a journalist here in Scotland. He would be a good person to ask re. publicising your case.

138

livilion,

livingston 23/09/2007 22:53:31

178. The Forgotten Princess, Blacksburg

I see your crass, tasteless remarks about the death of Colin McRae, his young son, and friends have been deleted.

People will be rude to you if you cannot conduct yourself with due respect.

How do you imagine your contributions reflect on the USA?

That stuff he buried? probably a feature of the highland butt'n'ben, the ootside lavvy.

139

AyrshireScot,

Banks of Bonnie Doon 23/09/2007 22:55:15

180 - hadn't seen those. Wouldn't have joked with the loon had I read those.

140

ScottishHaggis,

24/09/2007 00:00:55

SNP have just picked up from where Labour left them... surely it's not an overnight change. And if "Labour estimates that 2,500 extra primary teachers would be required" I'm quite sure that getting this number is not as simple as going to Tesco and saying "I'll have 2,500 peanuts please". Wake up and smell the coffee, change like this is a progression.

141

thomas,

midlothian 24/09/2007 02:16:57

am2 i certainly do rely on my memory as regards attending school. i also went to see hibs v rangers 1958 at easter road. my memory tells me that the rangers team of the day was , ritchie shearer caldow davis baillie baxter scott mcmillan miller brand and wilson. i remember the hibs team had joe mclellan ally mcleod and gerry baker playing . hibs lost 4-2. two incidents of note .joe mclelland cleared a corner for hibs up the slope, gerry baker went through doug baillies legs chasing the ball, and recieved a huge cheer. ally mcleod tussled with ally scott for the ball , the ref. gave the throw to hibs another loud cheer, as ally took the throw a 1/2 bottle of whisky hit him on the back of the head. he turned and said you might have left something in it ya bass.and carried on with the game.
if your chronilogical determination does not allow you such memories, thats life ,suck it up princess.

142

The Forgotten Princess,

Blacksburg 24/09/2007 02:24:42

#180 livilion

First of all, if my comment under the column under the death of Colin Rae, son and friends, was offensive then, I WHOLE HEARTEDLY APOLOGIZE TO EVERYONE. I would like it known that I remember making the comment, do not remember exactly what I wrote - but I remember what I meant - or was trying to say. And it was by no means meant to offend anyone. I could try to explain, but I'm sure it is better right now if I don't. BUT AGAIN, I AM TRULY SORRY.

Have you, livilion, never made a mistake in your precious life? Then you cast that first stone hard!

I live in Blacksburg, Virginia - and you can certainly believe I would not intentionally be hurtful or disrespectful to victims of any tragedy. Many of us here are still recovering. And I am surrounded by it, I live with it every day.

But as for how my contributions reflect on the US, they are just fine. My guess is that many, many people in the US would have known exactly what I meant by the comment and would not have been offended because they very well may have understood what I wrote.


Also, as far as comment #78, many people around me here in the US, in Blacksburg ----- have seen what I describe with their own two eyes and they also find it foul? So who from where is a poor reflection on who from where?

143

The Forgotten Princess,

Blacksburg 24/09/2007 02:37:59

#180 livilion

And lastly, JEALOUSY WILL ULTIMATELY GET YOU NOWHERE. As far as the stuff that is buried, it's more than likely way more than old potty material. My great grandfather was Robert C. Bruce, and it is a fact that he was descended down from Robert The Bruce. He came to the US on a boat from Scotland in 1881. There could easily be precious articles and artifacts among the items he buried. He died suddenly. Some of that stuff was never found. And as far as the location.........my father left that info with me. As far as I know, I am probably the only living soul who has "the map" in my head.

And honestly, based on the behavior I've seen from my relatives both here and abroad, I have grown to believe that whatever is buried is just plain supposed to stay there, so it doesn't really matter does it?

144

The Forgotten Princess,

Blacksburg 24/09/2007 02:49:42

#181 AyrshireScot

For what it is worth, I have apologized for the comment I made which was found to be offensive. I know what I was trying to say. And it was not meant to offend.

Call me a loon if you choose. I am who I say I am and the stuff I have written here is real. Whether it comes out in Scotland or in the US, this needs to come out in the media, with or without your help or AM2 or whoever.

I've got idiots hanging around me when I go out in public to the grocery, etc. to shop. There is another person who always comes with me. I am not a loon. TWO of us recognize some of these people from pictures on the internet.....family website. They don't contact me like a friend or family member - they hang around like weirdos. Who is/or are the loons here?

Maybe down the road I'll change my mind.
But with this cra#*y nonsense going on I don't want anything to do with any of them. Secret? What secret? If the stupidity going on around me does not stop I will die with this secret.......and my guess is that I am really the only living soul who knows where the old man buried the stuff. -----And by the way, it has gotten so intense that just about all of the employees in the Food Lion in Blacksburg know about this.......

145

livilion,

livingston 24/09/2007 07:34:23

185. The Forgotten Princess, Blacksburg

I take it you have the idea that you are some kind of Scottish princess with long lost Scottish royal treasure buried in the yard?

Good luck to you, the present Lord Bruce Andrew Douglas Alexander Thomas Bruce, 11th Earl of Elgin and 15th Earl of Kincardine, KT, CD, DL, JP is recognised as the direct decendant of Robert the Bruce for heritable purposes.

The legitimate Royal House of Stuart died out with Jacobite King Henry IX, Cardinal Henry Benedict, Stuart brother of the young pretender, although many claimants to the title 'rightful king of Scotland' abound.

Strongest claim would go to the current incumbent, Her Grace Queen Elizabeth, Queen of Scots.

If I were you I'd go dig up your buried treasure and cash it in before it's lost to you and your sanity.

146

Judge&Jury,

Glasgow 24/09/2007 09:05:55

6 months in office and they haven't waived their Scottish Government magic wand and sorted this out.

How much effort do they need to spend on such a simple issue?

Get a grip, the historical problems inherent in the Scottish Education system will not be solved overnight by a change of Government.

147

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 11:10:02

189- AM2

30th place, lagging befind the rest of the UK, in a country which has exported £200 billion in oil welath, is a national scandal. It highlights our underperformance within the Union. Because things are slowly improving does not vindicate the casue of the problem, which seems to be your only defence of the gross squandering of Scotlands economic potential within the Union. Answer this - if Scotland had controlled the £200 billion in oil wealth through the 80/90s would it be a much more prosperous country today?

Your reply on health was absolutely ridiculous, sophistic and petty, even by the standards of your usual obfuscations. Scotland has an appauling health record - you cite a couple of specific conditions where 5-10 year survival or incidence is converging toward UK or EU average and seem to think this negates it. Like telling a lung cancer patient his acne is improving. Pure sophistry, and the use of such mendacious and silly argumentation just highlights how little you actually care about this country you have chosen to live in.

148

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 11:10:26

190

AM2 - stop being so petty and help that woman :-)

149

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 24/09/2007 11:14:14

Seems our Unionist friends are impatient for successes from the new Holyrood Government. I've been waiting over fifty years for some successes from Westminster to Scotland and they have been few and far between. Our fishing industry was savaged by them to get a foothold in Europe (secretly). Our oil revenues were plundered by them to keep Thatcher in power (secretly). Scottish Labour politicians, all Unionists, told us a parcel of lies about the potential to Scotland from those same oil revenues. In the last ten years they have given us five wars and the biggest one illegal. Middle England have been the beneficiaries of a money system based on American capital and riven with debt and run by gangsters. Thousands, yes thousands of our pensioners die each year thro' cold related illnesses.How many in small independent european countries? None! Finland now builds more flagship liners while the Clyde becomes a luxury address for "the few". Thank you Westminster. Meanwhile we have a Westminster Treasury guaranteeing irresponsible money gamblers with tax payers money! It wasn't available to Scottish shipyards when they needed new equipment to compete in a then expanding global shipmaking era. The value of Westminster's PFI/PPP system of financing projects is coming home to roost as many predicted. Rubbish said Gordon and Alistair! One wee question to AM2. When did you last spend REAL time with your wife and family? Posting at 11.25 (23rd Sept) going to bed. Back again at 2.33 a.m.(24th Sept) then back again 10.24a.m.( 24th Sept). What a thrilling life you live!

150

Col. Blimp IV*,

24/09/2007 11:17:21

#179 AyrshireScot

Electronic Surveillance?

151

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 11:21:23

194 - Col B

it's worse than that, see 189. Clearly the fiend has my study bugged and is watching what I am reading. Send in special ops and a de-bugging unit. I shall maintain radio silence until 'Operation Unionist Slime Mop' is complete.

152

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 11:48:13

197 AM2

I made no such appeal. I accurately commneted on your style of debate - rather than address what is a national disgrace - Scotland's appauling health record - you merely use a couple of meaningless fig leaf statistics ("colo-rectal cancer rates converging to average") to negate or ignore the issue. This gives the imrpession that you are merely interested in diversion or sophistry, rather than acknowledging the horrifc truth of our health record. You then continue to confuse and slither on the economy, dodging a simple question, no doubt because the answer is blindingly obvious - would Scotland be much more prosperous now if it had controlled the £200 billion in oil wealth that was wasted by the UK? What belongs in the gutter, is these continuous unionist diversions and lies about Scotland.

153

Col. Blimp IV*,

24/09/2007 11:51:50

#195. AyrshireScot

I am deeply ashamed of myself for not having the foresight to invest in a couple of hundred quids worth of listening devices a few years ago, when I was working in the Scotsman Offices.

The inside of the place looks like one of Saddam's palace's, fountains, marble, 30ft high indoor trees, golden telephones and so on.

No wonder they support the status quo.

154

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 11:56:59

197 AM2

I see Norway ranks above the UK in competitiveness, despite having major obstacles of geography and other structural disadvantages - this suggests that indeed its oil welath has been used to improve its overall economic performance. You are not serioulsy asking me to take seriously a cross-referencing of oil production by 2nd world states to competitiveness - of course Saudi Arabia is not very competitive, history, geography and few other industries having no small part to play. Scotland is a modern, democrtatic, industrialised country already exporting more per head than Japan. Had the £200 billion in oil wealth been availbale it could have transformed our economy and standard of living to the top of league tables.
Take infrastructure - since 1950 the average train journey time between Bruxelles and Paris has decreased from 3.6 hors to 1.2 hours. In that period the average train journey time between Scotland's two largest cities has not changed. Our roads remain a disgrace, with key roads to Inverness, Perth and Edinburgh to the south etc little more than donkey tracks compared to the transport needs of a 21st century economy. This is another example of your unionist dividend - scandalous under-investment in our infrastructure. Oil wealth would of course have allowed a total transformation of this.

155

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 11:58:43

201 AM2

if the shoe fits

156

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:02:04

200 Col B

I am under the desk, perusing the Economist 'World in Figures' lest the fiends zoom their cameras onto the page I am reading. I have cleared the landing site for the black ops unit. Over and out.

157

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:07:22

196 - Am2

actually there is a correlation - the UK, Norway, USA, and Canada, being the only develoepd Westrern economies you list, all rank in top 20 competitiveness and 3/4 in the top 10, where they are also top 10 oil producers. To try and compare the modern, industrialised economy of Scotland to Saudi Arabia, Nigeria or Iraq has got to rank amongst one of your most quixotic, preposterous and desperate argumentational abberations to date. And that is quite an achievement,

158

Stewart of Alba,

Stirlingshire 24/09/2007 12:08:30

I used to think that some of the SNP supporters were being a bit paranoid about the Scotsman and its anti-SHP stance. However, this headline is just another in a succession of examples of misinformation.
Did this not used to be a reputable newspaper?
How can you lay the blame for Labour deficiencies over 8 years at the feet of SNP - a government of a few months.
I think Winged Messenger at #2 is spot on. Lets adopt total negativity in this land, just so that we won't feel so bad when something visionary doesn't actually work out or, God forbid, that we get back to the rule of the labour party in Scotland.
Waken up Scotland!

159

,

24/09/2007 12:15:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 992589, Article id was mapped to record!
160

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:15:55

21- AM2 - aye, ok, I'll leave off the 'floridity' if you argue logically

161

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:20:03

208 - Why should Norway, with it incredible obstacles of geography, with major towns in the artic circle, be anywhere close to the UK in competitiveness anyway? It should not. But for the fact it has had control of oil wealth, smaller than Scotland's, and used it to its own benefit.

Scotland, which is blessed with far more natural resources, a climate and geography more suited to agricultural production, and with a wealth of production and service industries, adjacent to larger developed markets than Norway, could have massively outperformed Norway. The fact it has not shows something is badly wrong. As the Union and Westminster control our economy, is it logical to summise that is the very problem.

162

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:24:29

AM2 you sat "can we excjange views without posturing" then we get "And laced with strychnine." Make up your mind. I know it is annoying to unionists that all the smart people are pro-independence, but if I have to forego my natural expressiveness to come down to your leaden style, at least refrain from your own weak attempts at prolix floridity in your writing :-)

163

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:24:56

214 - you say.... how can I get a spell checker on this btw?

164

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:35:25

216 - AM2

Iceland makes the independence case - a country with the population roughly equivalent to that of Dundee, with it own international airline and a higher standard of living than Scotland, WITHOUT Scotlands advantages in natural resources and industry. It is blindingly obvious Scotland could and should do better for her people than Iceland, or Norway, so what has been holding us back?
You have not commented on Scotland's infrastructure - why is Scotland unique in Europe in that journey times by train between its two largest cities has not reduced in 40 years?
Do you think Scotland's road network is adequate for the 21st century?
Do you think more could have been done in the past 50 years on health?
Do you think a country as potentially rich (actually rich, the wealth has gone elsewhere) should have 1/3 of housing in areas unfit for habitation?
What system of government has presided over these monumental under-achievements?
Why have these circumstances arisin within the union?
Could £200 billion in oil welath not have sorted these?

165

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:37:19

218 - AM2

oh, so why is the FSA advertising on salt and 5-a-day. Yes, public health and education programmes are the responsibility of government. Perhpas you remember AIDs? The UK governments in the past decades have done very little in the public health sphere to address Scotlands poor health, poor housing or the shame of 1000s of pensioners dying of hypothermia in the most energy rich country in Europe.

166

Col. Blimp IV*,

24/09/2007 12:40:17
167

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:40:32

220 -AM2

because Scotland is potentially a rich country. No other European country has Scotlands incredible wealth in natural resources (oil, gas, cola, water) nor can match her potential in cheap renewables (hydro, tidal, wind, wave). Scotland exports more head than Japan. At on epoint Scotland had c.1 /3 of Europes micro-electronic output. In Edinburgh we have one of the largest financial service sectors in Europe. Scotland could enjoy c. £5-9 Bn in oil revenues on top of this. The fact that we outperform France, or Zimbabwe, Or Mongolia, is not the argument. The argument is how much better we could have done, and how much better we will do, independent.

168

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:41:31

223 - AM2

strange that you mentioned Iceland at 216 then. Now - answer the points on infrastructure, housing, health.

169

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:42:04

225 - Cola should be coal. But Irn Bru does well as an export too.

170

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 24/09/2007 12:48:54

AM2 Have I got B.O. or something even more distasteful? I'm watching and waiting.Hurry up, as I have some REAL time to enjoy.

171

Col. Blimp IV*,

24/09/2007 12:52:02

#218. AM2, Glasgow

All those things are a direct result of the evolution of society, in case you hadn't noticed that has happened within the Union.

Had the Union never been, things would be somewhat different - If you doubt my word I would refer you to that excellent movie Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey.

172

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 12:57:54

223 AM2

I am sorry, but I simply cannot pass over your ludicrous reversal of logic at 223.

You say that Iceland and Luxembourg are rich and have standard of living because they are small. Leaving aside any nod in passing to notions of economic competence, GDP and any pro rating of economic output per head, this runs a coach, horses and a few oil tankers through your previous statements. You have repeatedly rehearsed your "might is right",big is good, arguments - how Scotland benefits as part of a large UK, G8 economy. Now you say the secret to wealth, health and high living standard is to be small. Which is it?

173

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 13:01:06

230 AM2 no, perhaps not

but at 234 you are at it again - is public health a remit of government, yes or no? Anything good = union dividend, anything bad = nothing to do with Union, is now your simplistic mantra?

You have not responded on why Scotland is unique in not having reduced train journey times bewteen her cities in 40 years? You have not answrered on other infrastructure questions. And you willfully try to skip friskily past the core question - would Scotland now be much more prosperous if we had controlled the £200 billion in oil revenues that was spent by the UK on mass unemployment, mortgage tax relief an Trident?

174

Col. Blimp IV*,

24/09/2007 13:06:53

#231 Il Penseroso

There is a theory that he is a machine, an android like REM from Logan's Run or DATA from Star Trek.

Terribly proficient with facts, figures, percentages and such, fast fingers on the keyboard and an awesome memory.

But unable to comprehend even the most basic of human feelings or emotions.

His post at #232 is further evidence to support this hypothesis.

175

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 13:11:10

234 AM2

tough. Alot of us are faster losing patience with teh second class status and waste of potential in Scotland you and yours prefer.

176

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 13:12:36

238 Col B

i think he would be more like Oraque in Blakes Seven

177

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 13:17:11

227 AM2

what absolute paucity of argument. In response to a question on why Scotland is unique in the devloped world in not having reduced the journey times between her major cities in the past (despite having had £200 billion in oil potentially available for such infrastructure work) you say " I would like to see a high speed rail link". Well I would like to see Wendy Alexander talk sense, but wishing doesn't make it so.

In response to the dreadful condition of Scotlands roads, you say "they are getting better" - if this is the sub-basement level of unionist arguments, please don't bother me further.

178

Col. Blimp IV*,

24/09/2007 13:21:54

#240. AyrshireScot

He must have been uncomfortable on a ship called "The Liberator". Servelan was Wendy's role-model.

179

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 13:25:48

242 - COl B

Servelan was tidy. She would never have been seen dead in a crumpled, over stretched polyester trooser suit from What Every's.

180

Col. Blimp IV*,

24/09/2007 13:32:47

#240. AyrshireScot

Before
If you were serious about the spell-checker the link at #224 is to the one I use. It has a small glitch, possiblly it is God's spell-checker and has it's eye on you.

After
#240. Eucharist

If you were serious about the spell-checker the link at #224 is to the one I use. It has a small glitch, possibly it is God's spell-checker and has it's eye on you.

181

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 24/09/2007 13:33:20

#238 Colonel. Sighs all round; the Mekon is off to "do some work" Now there's a change! I think his feelings and passions were derived from the Giant's Causway. I'd love to send him a hammer and ask him to spend some real time cracking a few nuts over there. He certainly irritates a few this side of the Irish Sea with no obvious conversions.

182

Col. Blimp IV*,

24/09/2007 13:37:40

Don't let Meths see a picture of her - He would fall hopelessly in love.

183

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 14:20:49

244 - got the first one thanks

184

thomas,

midlothian 24/09/2007 18:52:34

234 am2 of course governments try to improve peoples health.
do you like telling lies am2.
tell us when the labour administration attempted to do this during their tenure in scotland?

185

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 20:23:55

252 - AM2 ah, back.

249 makes the independence case, again. Iceland, with less advantages than Scotland (far less), an even greater land area and lower population density, far less indigenous industry, has better standard of living and is richer? How? Why?

252 - I take this as a partial concession of the point that Scotland's appalling health and housing records must in some way be attributable to the governance of Scotland for the past few hundred years. Good, glad to see you are able to move beyond your dogmatic and blinkered union=good arguments and start accepting facts. I have high hopes we can proceed apace with your conversion to Scotland's cause.

186

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 20:28:33

250/ 251 - my hopes were misplaced, you have gone back wards.

Of course Nicola Sturgeon is committed to tackle the ghastly health record she has inherited. Your logic time and gain is that because we are now improving, then the cause and starting point should be forgotten.

251 - we are not debating Ireland or Finland. I asked you why:

- Scotland rail journey time between her cities are unique in the developed world in not having reduced in 40 years, whilst in Europe they have halved at least in this time. Who has been under-investing in our infrastructure and why?
- Why are roads are so appalling.

I asked nothing about Ireland or Finland. This is typical obscurantist diversion. Stop it.

I could ask you why there is inflation in Zimbabwe and how this relates to Annabel Goldie's petticoats - equally irrelevant as your safari's round Finland.

187

AyrshireScot,

24/09/2007 21:43:34

256 - LOL. Aye, coming from the grand obsessive re-paster this worries me, I was of course just waiting all day for your next batch of mince. Off to cry at your abrupt and ignominious flight from the thread. Big kiss.

188

siusaidh,

28/09/2007 09:00:55

AM2 managed to drag this thread off the unionist direction again....try sticking to the main points!

There are really good teachers out there, but on the other hand ,there are very lazy ones [I've come across all types during my children's education].
Smaller classrooms help to make things easier esp. in those early years.
Unfortunately due to the lack of investment after 20 Tory years [and the following Labour year, which haven't done enough to improve things, as they were too worried to to offend their new found old Tory voters to really change things], education was neglected for far to long to suddenly think, that once Scotland has got a new administration, which has to run as a minority government, it all can suddenly be turned around within a matter of weeks.....

It will need time, investment and most of all proper support of the other party's ,if schools and education are to improve.

Smaller classrooms will help, but just because it's a priority by this government, it won't be able to happen over night.
The other [unionist] party's forcing the issue about the trams [which will have very little benefit for the majority of scottish people] won't have helped...esp. once the costs will spiral out of control [as happened with the scottish pariament building] .

189

siusaidh,

30/09/2007 14:40:22

How did AM2 and Ayrshirescot got from classrooms to oil..?


 

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