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Dani Garavelli: Believe it or not

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Published Date: 08 November 2009
YOU would think, wouldn't you, that one of the principal attractions of atheism would be the complete absence of schisms. Where the devout always seem to be working themselves up into a frenzy over some obscure theological point, non-believers can glide through life, absolved, as they are, of the need to negotiate the terms of their disbelief. If there's no God, there is no message. And if there's no message, then there's nothing much to argue about.
Despite this, atheism was last week rent by disagreement, proving that the need for petty, internecine squabbling runs deeper in the psyche than the need to find meaning in existence. The question that is dividing its leading proponents is how much t
hey should be evangelising about their lack of faith. Should they adopt a live-and-let-live approach to the religious? Or should they be shouting their atheism from the rooftops in an attempt to get all the blinkered throwbacks to see the light?

In the live-and-let-live corner are the "old" atheists led by US professor Paul Kurtz, who founded the Center for Inquiry three decades ago to offer a positive alternative to religion. Kurtz – who built alliances with religious groups over issues such as opposing creationism in schools – lit the kindling for the argument when he called the decision to celebrate Blasphemy Day with a contest encouraging new forms of blasphemy a betrayal of the civic virtues of democracy.

In the opposing corner are the new, In-Your-Face atheists – Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and PZ Myers – who see it as their duty to launch constant attacks on the faithful. Within their ranks, there is a kind of competitiveness to achieve ever greater degrees of non-belief. Myers once drove a rusty nail through a consecrated communion wafer and posted it on his website.

It's the new atheists, of course, who are in the ascendancy. Their noisy denunciation of religion seems to capture the zeitgeist, even though the vitriolic rhetoric they use has more in common with the clergymen they oppose than with the liberal secularism of our age.

As regular readers of this column may know, I am not hugely devout, my faith, at its lowest ebb, being based more on a desire for God to exist than on an overpowering conviction that he does. If I were to lose the last vestiges of it and become an atheist, I suspect the most liberating aspect would be the prospect of jettisoning, once and for all, any association with the intolerance and invective that has blighted some sections of my own Church for so long. So it strikes me as odd that so-called movement atheists should adopt the very tactics they claim to abhor in religionists to further their own cause.

Like missionaries in Africa, they trample over other people's beliefs in an attempt to replace them with their own "superior" world view. They dislike the way some churches put up The End Of The World Is Nigh posters to try to boost numbers, so they slap up their own message – "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" – on the side of buses, even though, for some people, the thought of life as one long struggle with a big, black hole at the end of it, is not cheering, but deeply distressing.

They complain about parents indoctrinating their charges, but set up atheist summer camps, which encourage "scepticism". "It is a telling fact that, the world over, the vast majority of children follow the religion of their parents rather than any of the other available religions," Dawkins has said. Uh huh. And I think you'll find most children of non-believers also tend to be non-believers.

For all movement atheists are forever going on about their own intelligence, they seem singularly unable to distinguish between organised religion and personal faith, ridiculing both with equal vehemence. I mean, by all means criticise individual religions: Catholicism for its tendency to cover up child abuse; Protestantism for its rejection of fun; Islam for its sometimes dubious treatment of women. There are plenty within those creeds who would agree with you. Feel free to criticise the short-comings of individual practitioners too: there will always be those who don't practise what they preach (although many more are doing their best to live good and loving lives).

But bear in mind believers don't have a monopoly on ruthlessness; or arrogance or mean-spiritedness, as Dawkins so ably demonstrates. Here is a brilliant man who uses his intellect to put other people down. Here is a man so convinced of his own rightness that he treats all who disagree with him with contempt. It's almost as if he considers himself infallible.

Mocking what is sacred to other people – by drawing Jesus with nail polish dripping from his wounds instead of blood, for example – doesn't seem sophisticated or useful, it seems childish; like spoiling someone's else's toy because you don't have one of your own.

The refusal of movement atheists to accept that faith and intelligence are not mutually exclusive, undermines their credibility. But even if they were right: if all believers were sad, pathetic and deluded, I don't see what would be so clever about snatching away their comfort blanket.

The urge to strip away the meaning others invest in life is a brutal one, which is why a schism which benefited "new" atheists would be very bad news indeed.

At its worst, "movement" atheism is more than the passive non-belief in the existence of God. It's a cult which has all the nasty trappings of religion, except the deity. It's a form of secular fundamentalism every bit as bitter, as poisonous and potentially sinister as the doctrines it hopes to replace.





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1

Dan Moody,

UK 08/11/2009 11:13:48
So atheists are as bad as theists?

You compare "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" and The End Of The World Is Nigh style church campaigns as if both were as bad as each other. Look at the views expressed, the atheist campaign promoted enjoyment of life; most theist campaigns threaten damnation unless you adhere to a restrictive dogma that requires money, time and (following your example of worst case scenarios) rejection of your own sexuality.

Atheists ran a summer camp which encouraged skepticism (a very small part of the activities). Why do you view skepticism as a negative? Do you believe children should accept everything they’re told?

All this before even factoring in the sheer amount of religious advertising out there. Atheists couldn’t get close to this level of indoctrination campaigning if we wanted to; most of us don’t and can think of better uses for the money.

Finally, yes we will attack your beliefs, we don’t consider them sacred. However, I know of no atheist who seeks to remove your right to believe as you wish or stand up for them. Contrast this to the continued indoctrination of religion into children by faith schools and assemblies across the country.

Your attacks on atheists stating their views (and not on the views themselves) make it clear that in your own opinion atheists should be neither seen nor heard and that we should be censoring ourselves.
I guess as an intelligent journalist you know better than us poor ignorant unfaithful masses when it comes to deciding who should be encouraged to speak freely.
2

Aiken Head,

Dumbarton 08/11/2009 11:33:16
What a nasty little diatribe from one who accuses others of vitriol.

Maybe to some people the above might seem reasonable, balanced and fair while anything written by Prof Dawkins would be arrogant and mean spirited but it is very hard to understand how.
3

Alex McDonald,

Edinburgh 08/11/2009 21:10:20
Why should I respect other people's beliefs, when they are crazy in the extreme?

Why should I respect someone who believes that their vengeful god will condemn them to everlasting torment unless they believe in her/him/it? Why should I respect someone who thinks that if they aren't good in this life, their god will punish them in the next by bringing them back as a slug or a beetle? Why should I respect those who think that being homosexual is sufficient to be punished by castration or even death? Or that blowing yourself up in a crowded street in the name of yet another vengeful and hateful god is rewarded with the gift of 72 virgins? Or that crystals have healing powers, or that tea leaves can tell the future, or any other number of insanities?

What's to be polite about?

"New" atheists are unlike the "old" atheists (and thanks for the scare quotes; I'd have been confused without them) because being accommodationist hasn't worked. There really are people out there who believe that the world was created 6000 years ago. That god talks to them. That sciences -- particularly biological evolution -- are to be suppressed as evil and the work of Satan. That misogyny, child abuse, genocide, wars and more are sanctioned by their god.

And there are those, like you, that think atheism is a religion.

So be it. We're proselytizing, knocking on doors, speaking from pulpits, converting the masses. We're noisy, insistent, and fed up at the religious twaddle that infests everyday thinking, and we want change. You may not agree with the methods, but if those of faith are allowed to do it -- heck, they're positively encouraged to do it! -- why can't the new atheist?

You see nothing but similarities. Here's a big difference; we're not insane. Faith and intelligence are mutually exclusive, not withstanding your assertion to the contrary. Religion demands the existence of something that cannot be proved to exist, that is, by its very definition, supernatural. Religi
4

Alex McDonald,

Edinburgh 08/11/2009 21:12:17
(continued; this site truncates without warning...)

You see nothing but similarities. Here's a big difference; we're not insane. Faith and intelligence are mutually exclusive, not withstanding your assertion to the contrary. Religion demands the existence of something that cannot be proved to exist, that is, by its very definition, supernatural. Religion brooks no investigation, no inquiry, no measurement, no criticism, no reason. Religion defies and contradicts rationality.

Religion is, at base, a madness. We're fighting for the sane.

5

Alex McDonald,

Edinburgh 08/11/2009 22:31:25
One last point (which would have been in the previous except for the serious truncation on the comment box);

Myers did indeed drive a rusty nail through a consecrated communion wafer and posted it on his website. Myers also drove the nail though pages from the /Qur'an/. And perhaps you were aware that he also drove the nail through your bogey-man Dawkin's /The God Delusion/.

You assert that "If I were to lose the last vestiges of [belief in God] and become an atheist, I suspect the most liberating aspect would be the prospect of jettisoning, once and for all, any association with the intolerance and invective that has blighted some sections of my own Church for so long".

I would first advise adding a little more factual perspective into your reporting; that is more liberating than you may think. Facts are something that I find in very short supply in the religious, especially when they contradict some sacred text or doctrine.

Or perhaps you did insufficient research. Here, let me help;

From Myers' blog: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php

"By the way, I didn't want to single out just the cracker, so I nailed it to a few ripped-out pages from the Qur'an and The God Delusion. They are just paper."

6

Billious43,

Glasgow 09/11/2009 13:36:47
Dani,
Reading your article it is clear that you have never thought about what the implications are for humanity for the existence of god or the non-existence of god. Perhaps you could show more respect for the readers of this newspaper next time if you actually took the time to examine the subject as carefully and objectively as possible from all sides. This would have the added advantage of preventing you from trotting out all those tired and inaccurate straw Dawkins' and Hitchens' that you have borrowed for this article. You clearly know and have read very little about the subject and have never honestly contemplated the detrimental effect that religious belief has had on the development humanity. I mean, it is a pathetic argument barely worthy of a school playground to say that god must exist because the world wouldn't be nice if he didn't. If I were you, a professional journalist, I would be embarassed.
7

Kagehi,

09/11/2009 20:42:22
Ah, yes. There are "huge" rifts in atheism, which are **just like** the huge rifts in military organizations. I mean, after all, when fighting against people that threaten your way of life, it makes **much** more sense for 100% of all the strategists to agree, instead of suggesting different strategies, and every soldier should just pick whether they want to use rubber bullets and flash grenades, even against submarines, or tanks, or resort to dropping a bunker buster bomb on the target, even if its in guy in a room, holding hostages. Gosh, why did I never see it before. Just pick one method, whether you know it works or not, no matter what collateral damage might result, and without any regard to the target, then use it exclusively!

See, Dani.. The "rift" you are seeing is an argument over whether the problem **is** a submarine, and we need to use a depth charge on some of these religious clowns, or we should be *nice* and ineffectually shoot rubber bullets at people that are systematically drifting pure BS in, up the coast line of logic and reason, up the nearest river, then letting loose 50 morons in clown suit in the middle of town. Some of us think that the only method of dealing with such things is to torpedo the sub before it gets there. Others suggest that doing so might hurt the feelings of the people in town that really like clown shoes, but are not "quite" so obsessed as to wear the full costume. The "nice" atheists call these people allies. The rest of us wonder what the point of having an ally is if a) they can't tell the difference between an attack on a *mutual* enemy, and themselves, and b) every time its suggested that we don't really need a "clown shop" in town, they scream, "But where would we buy our shoes!!", while ignoring the fact that they are defending people that 5 minutes earlier they said they didn't like any more than we do.

Its human nature to have disagreements. If you want to solve problems, you need more than one idea. If you b
8

Alex McDonald,

Edinburgh 09/11/2009 21:47:42
Congratulations. Your piece has been "phayngulated". I'm not sure you're going to enjoy the experience though...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/11/the_deep_rifts_simply_call_us.php
9

Dorene Braun,

Hampton, VA 10/11/2009 12:01:21
I have been a lifelong agnostic and write a column about nonbelief. All I can say about your article is, Amen! . . .er, Hear, hear!"

You've got it exactly right, and you don't have to look any further than your own comments to see that.

I hope you see your "pharyngulation" as a compliment.
10

Alex McDonald,

Edinburgh 10/11/2009 13:43:37
Dorene, you could equally have written "I have been a lifelong Redskins fan and write a column about American football" and it would have made as much sense. The assertion that you're agnostic (presumably atheistic, although it's not clear), and the suggestion that you're a fully committed and paid up member -- of a non-existent club! -- doesn't validate the argument presented here. Nor does the fact that you "write a column".

Dani is a professional journalist that's written a badly researched and poorly argued article.

The words of Dawkins, Myers, Hitchens, Kurtz or any number of publically identifiable atheists are just that; words. No imposition of what and how to think, just an invitation to think. And, for some of them, atheists like myself included, the use of scorn and a merciless verbal prodding, which is also aimed at those who write this kind of "Ooo, they're so nasty to us" nonsense.

So who's being nasty? This article is a bitter and poisonous attack on my non-belief. It's is a thinly disguised diatribe against named and unnamed atheists, employing sneering contempt, arrogance and half-truths, concluding with a cynical "Why don't they shut up?".

I, for one, won't be shut up. You, on the other hand, should have realised your argument was in tatters the moment you typed out that Amen.

11

Dorene Braun,

Hampton, VA 11/11/2009 11:29:08
Alex, every comment you make helps to prove Garavelli's point. You start by belittling me because of what I choose to call myself and end by not getting a joke.

I don't see a bitter and poisonous attack. The fact that you do is telling. Do you really think you make a case for the superiority of atheism by being loud, offensive, ridiculing and cruel? Don't do me any favors.

I've seen what Garavelli talks about. I've been in the middle of it. I don't think that the best way to achieve a goal is to be obnoxious and hateful. These "new" atheists aren't helping themselves or anyone else by being so.

It's not bad journalism just because you don't agree with what Garavelli says. It's not a diatribe just because you see yourself in her words and realize that you and your ilk are being criticized.

I smell a little too much worship of the Four Horsemen in your comments. I find that unsettling.
12

Alex McDonald,

Edinburgh 11/11/2009 21:13:57
Dorene

I don't see how I belittled you. Your reference to your credentials was immaterial, because it doesn't validate the article at all. The fact that you are agnostic and write a column on non-belief doesn't make one whit of a difference. You could be a nuclear physicist with a dozen or more published papers for all I care. Who you are counts for zero. What arguments you make counts for a lot.

And with the label agnostic, you veer right off the point. This is about atheism (a lack of belief), not agnosticism (a lack of knowledge). Someone who writes on non-belief should know that.

Your only words of substance were "You've got it exactly right". I disagreed, and showed you why I thought you were exactly wrong. That makes me obnoxious?

As to the poor journalism; here are some of Dani's observations.

Dawkins is "arrogant", "mean-spirited", "uses his intellect to put other people down", "treats those who disagree with him with contempt". Nothing about what he says, or the arguments he makes, just that Dani considers him, well -- contemptible. Strike 1.
13

Alex McDonald,

11/11/2009 21:16:20
(the rest)

And all atheists that get up her nose are equally contemptible, and shouldn't be allowed to express themselves. No atheist signs on buses, because that leaves a black hole and takes away a "security blanket". How wrong is this! None of the atheists I know, new or otherwise, find an urge to strip away the meaning others invest in life. Quite the reverse; it's the religious that invest the next life, not this one, with meaning. They portray this life -- the only one we have -- as brutal, a struggle against sin and temptation, and a preparation for the big house in the sky where it will be all OK. We're trying to get people to lead good, fulfilling and meaningful lives right now. Dani just doesn't get the point. Strike 2.

PZ Myers descrated a communion wafer. And, something Dani conveniently fails to mention, the Koran and The God Delusion. Strike 3

As to drawing Jesus with nail polish dripping from his wounds instead of blood; what kind of twisted logic is that? A picture of a man being painfully crucified is somehow better art and less offensive when it's showing blood? Give me atheism over the brutality of Christian imagery any day of the week.

Now argue your corner, and stop whining. This is badly researched journalism.

As to the Four Horsemen, you really need to get that religious imagery under control.
14

Dorene Braun,

Hampton, VA 15/11/2009 18:45:21
Alex, you weary me. You post one angry comment after another insisting that your point of view be heard, but criticize the author for doing the same thing. She has a right to her point of view. So do I. And no matter how many comment boxes you fill, your argument isn't getting better.

And it was not I who came up with the term Four Horsemen. Maybe do some research?
15

Alex McDonald,

Edinburgh 16/11/2009 10:23:42
Dorene

I'm sorry you find this tiring, but you really need to be a little less of a sleepy head and pay attention. I'm arguing with Dani's opinion, not her right to express her opinion.

You seem to want to make everything emotional and personal, and close down the discussion by dismissing me as "loud, offensive, ridiculing and cruel", and now "angry".

That's *exactly* the complaint I have about Dani's article and her argument about "new atheists". And now the same tactics from you. Complaining that I and others won't play by your or Dani's rules and won't stop annoying you is a pretty poor substitute for reasoned argument.

I'm aware of what you meant by the Four Horsemen. My apologies, I wasn't clear enough; it was your use of the word "worship".


16

Dorene Braun,

Hampton, VA 16/11/2009 13:06:23
Well, then, I certainly meant to use that word knowing what is implied by it. I am accusing you of worshipping Dawkins.
17

Alex McDonald,

Edinburgh 18/11/2009 00:27:42
So you find it easier to employ juvenile finger-pointing and accuse me of worshiping Dawkins than address the criticisms I raised. Is it really that hard to justify why this article deserves your cheer?


 

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