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Ministers face a grilling in McKie judicial inquiry

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Published Date:
03 June 2007
A JUDICIAL inquiry into the notorious McKie fingerprint case is set to investigate claims that the cover-up over the affair was linked to fears it would scupper the Lockerbie prosecution.
Scotland on Sunday can reveal that a full inquiry into the McKie affair has been given the go-ahead by new SNP ministers who have begun discussions about who should head up the potentially explosive probe.

Ex-ministers including Jim Wallace, Cath
y Jamieson and former Lord Advocate Colin Boyd are almost certain to be called to give evidence.

But the inquiry is also likely to ask whether the case was dropped because it might have "tainted" the Scottish legal system during the Lockerbie case.

The revelations come as Libyan Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi, the man convicted of the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, which crashed on Lockerbie, prepares to hear whether his case will be sent back to the appeal court at the end of this month. The bombing killed 259 passengers and crew and 11 people on the ground.

Last year, former policewoman Shirley McKie received £750,000 in compensation after ministers admitted that fingerprint experts at the Scottish Criminal Records Office (SCRO) had made an "honest mistake" in wrongly identifying her as having been present at a murder scene.

Ministers had hoped the payment would draw a line under the affair, but there followed a welter of fresh revelations about the case, including claims by a senior police chief of a "cover-up" and "conspiracy".

Despite this, ministers in the previous administration refused to hold a judicial inquiry, opting instead for a parliamentary inquiry.

SNP sources now say that Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill will "definitely" press ahead with a public inquiry once a suitable judge has been selected. This could take time, however, as there are concerns that no judge in Scotland would be able to carry out the task, which will require detailed scrutiny of the judicial system itself.

Sources have also confirmed the inquiry will not re-examine the print itself, and will start from the basis that it was not McKie's.

The remit is likely to focus on why the mistake was made and on the alleged 'cover-up'.

The Lockerbie link was made last year by two American fingerprint experts who claim they were told to "back off" from their criticisms of the McKie affair for fear it would tarnish the reputation of the Scottish legal system.

The warnings in 2001 came as Scottish prosecutors prepared the Lockerbie trial, a case of international importance.

David Grieve, a senior fingerprint expert at Illinois State Police, said last year: "I was asked not to mention anything about the [McKie] case and not to publicise it because we had to think about the higher goal, which was Lockerbie."

The warnings came as serious questions were being asked about the SCRO's handling of the McKie case.

A report by the former Assistant Chief Constable of Tayside Police, Jim Mackay, into the case had concluded that officials at the SCRO had taken a "criminal course of action" by "covering up" their mistakes.

The then Lord Advocate, Colin Boyd, decided not to prosecute anyone from the SCRO. He has always strenuously denied there was any link between this decision and the Lockerbie case.

The news that an inquiry will happen was welcomed by Shirley McKie's father, Iain, last night.

"The starting point here needs to be, first of all, why did they make these mistakes? And then why were they prepared to keep it under wraps for 10 years."

He added: "This case brings in Lockerbie, and that undoubtedly needs to be looked at."

The public inquiry would also be able to summon some of the key police and Crown Office figures in the case, who were not brought before the parliamentary inquiry.

As with the inquiry into the Holyrood building project, it would also have full powers to pull all documents relating to the case which have not so far been published.

A spokesman for MacAskill said that ministers would be considering the content of the inquiry over the coming months. No decision is expected over the next few weeks.

The Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission is expected to reach a verdict by the end of this month over whether or not the verdict in the Lockerbie case is unsafe. If they do so, then the entire case could be re-tried.



Page 1 of 1

 
1

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 03/06/2007 00:31:20

At last the McKie case will get a proper inquiry, but it's taken a change of administration to get it.

Not forgetting of course, there are a number of issues relating to widespread injustice in Scotlanc which cross over between the McKie case and how the legal system & establishment oeprate.

A full inquiry should also look at how and why there is a 'culture of injustice' in Scottish Law, ultimately putting right those injustices of the past.

2

Colin B,

Bearsden 03/06/2007 01:28:42

There needs also to be a root and branch Police Investigation ( with Lay Assesors as in England) into the workings of the Crown Office and Procurators Fiscal Offices in Scotland as to how decisions to prosecute are taken ( although neither Strathclyde or Lothian and Borders Police can be considered fit to conduct either due to their alleged culpabilty in this and other cases - Strathclyde Police has more miscarriages of justice against its name than any other police force in Western Europe- no wonder Chief Con Willie Rae keeps a low profile as they still has questions to answer on Annie Davies, Marion Ross , ANdrew Ramsay, Campbell and Steel, David Asbury,Paddy Meehan etc )

Lord Boyd clearly usurped the function of the jury - once Mackay said crimanality emerged there was the prospect of a conviction against the SCRO officers - Lord Boyd's membership of the Labour party (and Unison who sponsor Labour and launched the defence of the the SCRO and lobbied MSPs) he was conflicted yet denied it ( despite also being a defendant to the action of mcKie against Scottish ministers ).
The disgusting behavoiur of Labour's McNulty and MacIntosh (both of whom admitted to me in writing in 2006 the errors they each made in their public statements on the case on behalf of their sacked constituents and Pauline MacNeill( real name Cahill ) who was biased against McKie for the start even before he Justice Comittee launched their investigation (which she voted against holding) is all the more embarrasing for Labour as the are now shadow ministers ( as is the hopeless Jamieson ) .

Lord Boyd was arguably the worst Lord Advocate Scotland has had since Alexander Ure ( later Lord Strathclyde ) framed an innocent man Oscar Slater in 1909. At least Ure said he regretted his actions.
One good thing ha happened- the Faculty of Advocates has fallen from grace to being a second class professional body- it censures Findlay and Campbell for telling the truth yet lets

3

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 03/06/2007 02:43:56

Peter and Colin above.
All your comments resonate with me, Yes it's great to have a Judicial Enquiry Peter but for it to be independent the need for an English Judge is great. Maybe even Eva Jolly, See Link.
The mention of the Lockerbie Link also brings to mind another case claiming he never got a fair hearing from SCCRC because a certain QC sat on their board at the time they reviewed his case, BW of course has now put his blog on the net and it is also worth a view so i will link it also.
I have also noticed on the McKie Forum that there is also a call for any Enquiry to be broadened to engulf the whole judiciary and there are even letters posted to Alex Salmond asking for such Enquiry. See link.

http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.1217...

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/about24.html


http://williambeck.blogspot.com/

4

Wee Lou,

Glasgow 03/06/2007 04:00:15

Yes a much needed Enquiry into the Judicial system in Scotland is well overdue. Pity it has taken a Government Change to initiate such Enquiry.
JIAF above, Read your article on Eva Jolly and would highly recommend that Kenny Macaskill certainly employs someone Independent, Jolly would be highly suitable, Think about it Kenny.
I agree with Iain McKie though that the starting point must be their reason for keeping it under wraps for ten years.
almost certainly it was because of the Lockerbie Link eh?

5

Guga II,

Rockall 03/06/2007 04:40:44

I agree with all the above comments.

6

Sean K,

Edinburgh 03/06/2007 05:28:33

Hear Hear, Guga II,

Well done the SNP administration.

At last we may see justice done in this shameful episode of political chicanery..

7

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 03/06/2007 07:31:58

this remit is a chance for truth, can the first minister give us the truth?.this can only help the miscarraiges in scotland. freethekillie2.

8

Alexander,

edinburgh 03/06/2007 08:04:56

Another Labour skeleton to see the light of day. A few more to come I guess.

9

eestlane,

03/06/2007 08:51:46

Why does the headline not state:
"EX-Ministers face a grilling...."?

10

Pilrig,

Livingston 03/06/2007 10:40:29

Justice MUST be seen to be done, for the sake of all individuals concerned.

11

The Man Who Knows,

Perth 03/06/2007 10:50:25

What will happen if this new inquiry reveals that it was Ms McKie's fingerprint?

12

Pilrig,

Livingston 03/06/2007 11:04:06

11 - justice must follow it's course regardless.

13

,

03/06/2007 11:16:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 03/06/2007 11:41:56

No2
Please tell me what is grilling?
The steak, finger between the scissors slowly cut? Why are you so upset? They are not yours are they? Let them grill fry, toast, burn, boil. When you are in problem let me know. Don’t write a bible of law here. Okay Thank you.

15

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 03/06/2007 12:21:52

the mckie case needs anwers as many do in scotland where is truth where is justice anymore.

16

Crystal Ball,

03/06/2007 12:57:11

How can any 'independent' enquiry start from the presumption that the print was not McKie's?

This has the SCRO down as guilty from the start, no surprise from an SNP sponsored enquiry. If the possibility that the identifiaction of Y7 was correct is exlcuded from the enquiry then it isn't worth having it.

This is a whitewash, the ownership of the mark is the root of this whole case, this hotly disputed issue cannot be ignored.

17

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 03/06/2007 13:04:49

it is noted you know the case, if you have evidence ball show it . where is the justice where is the truth where is the lies. the joke and cathy paid up in the mckie case why? ask yourself, there was a botch up in u division .

18

mr chips,

03/06/2007 14:15:06

13/ spot on archie, joke mcnumpty and jimmison in the dock hopefully.

19

The Man Who Knows,

Perth 03/06/2007 14:55:08

13

Archie, see post 11. What happens?

20

Crystal Ball,

03/06/2007 17:19:33

17 Free the Killie 2...

The point is that the evidence should be presented at the enquiry, this apparant remit (when the judge hasn't even been appointed yet?) will prevent half of the evidence coming out.

A large part of the evidence came out at Justice One last year, but it wasn't in their remit to look at the identification.

This apparant direction, i.e. to establish a conspiracy or cover up is yet another tired rehash of the Mackay Report, which held no water back then and holds no water now.

If Patrick Docherty and Brendan Dixon are innocent of the murder of Margaret Irvine -and I have insufficient knowledge of your case to comment either way- then I hope you are successful in your efforts.

Be warned though, there are those very close to the McKie case who want the Marion Ross murder investigation re-opened in light of confidential and secret Police papers they claim to have seen about one of your friends.

"it makes the hairs on the back of your neck rise at the mere thought that, because the killer of Marion Ross was never caught, another innocent woman may have died"

"these papers show the Police had a clear suspect and they refused to take any action against him."

(Iain McKie, The Sun, 23/02/06)

21

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 03/06/2007 17:51:56

ball i admire your advice, but brendan and patrick were never pals. the case was based on hearsay i want the case reopened, and the marion ross case . brendan has nothing to hide and is willing to take a lie detector test in prison there are cases in ayrshire that need looked at not just the killie2.yours freethekillie2.

22

Crystal Ball,

03/06/2007 18:37:11

It also seems rather odd that SNP politicians -who were critics of what they saw as a partisan lord advocate, to the point of removing her from the cabinet- now seek to dictate the terms of the inquiry.

If they were as good as their word why not let a judge look at the case and determine the remit they see as appropriate?

Free the Killie 2 (22), if you feel that the Jury was denied important information in the case of the two people you campaign for, do you agree that important evidence should not be witheld in this inquiry?

If this article is correct then this inquiry is going to attack individuals formerly from within the SCRO and the SCRO on an institutional level. This proposed starting point -that the SCRO and its staff are already guilty- goes against the most basic right any citizen of a civilised society has in law.

Other than the death of Marion Ross, that is the real miscarriage of Justice in this whole saga.

23

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 03/06/2007 18:56:05

marion ross and margaret irvine are the real victims, but there has been foul play as gerry conlon said they fouled the ball. can the snp do as asked open cases that need looked into, can we have justice in scotland oncemore,

24

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 03/06/2007 19:17:14

ball i want the marion ross case investigated fully and the truth to come out. but u division, also needs looked into by someone outside scotland. brendan,s files are there for all to see, but as needs must i dont know docherty but the two are in the same boat re margaret irvine. two that never talked two who hated each other colin miller third accused, see shirleymckie.com for more on the case

25

connaughtboy,

03/06/2007 23:18:20

#23 Are you serious? Are you really suggesting that a judge sets his own remit? How could that possibly be independent?

26

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 04/06/2007 00:46:46

Crystal Ball#21
From what i can make of the Patrick Docherty and Brendan Dixon case.
Hearsay evidence alone convicted them, Apart from this hearsay gumph there was no concrete evidence.
You say that Iain McKie has seen secret files from one of FreetheKillie2' friends, For your info only Brendan Dixon is related to Freethekillie2 (Brother-in-Law) and he does not know anything about the other accused and he is saying Brendan was in his house at the time of murder along with his wife and child. This would be concrete evidence of his where-abouts against Hearsay, in my book the accused must benefit from any doubt? but it doesn't always work this way.
I do agree though that if you are right in what you are suggesting then even this merits severe and proper Investigation in U Division.
The real victims as you put it are the Families of the victims who will be dragged through the Muck again.
As Freethekillie2 puts it: The two were never friends nor did they hang about with each other, Yet they were convicted as acting art and part, Joke.
http://kevin-freethekillie2.blogspot.com/

27

Crystal Ball,

04/06/2007 00:52:26

Connaughtboy

Are you going to tell me that you trust the SNP to hold an independent inquiry?

If this article is true then we already see that they are in thrall to Iain McKie. The reason for Mackays report was a letter from Iain McKie to Jim Wallace.

The only suggestion of criminality or cover-up was in that letter! How many times must these people be investigated? I suppose once more won't hurt, so long as the inquiry isn't absolutely skewed from the start, as this article suggests it will be.

At long last we have a proper forum with proper powers to investigate, and what happens? The SNP attempt to exclude any evidence that might actually show that the former SCRO officers were and are innocent.

No coincidence that senior SNP figure Michael Russell continues to profit from a book written about the McKie side of this whole scandal.

Would you stand for this?

Iain McKie tried to pull the same stunt before Justice One, they had the balls to stand up to him, I hope that the selected judge has the balls to do the same.

As I said before cannaughtboy, is it not a tad hypocritical for the SNP to remove the Lord Advocate from the cabinet because of the possibility of politicians interfering with justice, and for the same SNP to dictate a remit that denies the main players the basic protection of law, i.e. that they are innocent until proven guilty?

The inquiry should happen, but Shirley McKie should be afforded no more protection from scrutiny than anybody else involved in the case, no matter who senior members of the new cabinet are in league with.

If they are serious about getting to the truth of this case, rather than the 'truth' that the SNP want to hear, then pull out all the stops, start with a clean sheet, otherwise there will never be justice.

28

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 04/06/2007 00:56:41

Yes Congratulations to SNP for their stance on this Judicial Enquiry and i await with anticipation Alex Salmonds response to the calls for the remit to be widened to engulf the whole system and not only the Shirley McKie Case.
Openness, Fairness, and Justice demand that All Injustice's be looked at, Why pick only one case.
Justice Must Always Be Seen To Be Done.

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/sutra34.php#34

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/about17.html

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/about24.html

29

Crystal Ball,

04/06/2007 01:06:53

JIAF
I didn't say that Iain McKie had seen secret documents, I said that he said he had, as quoted in the Sun on the date given.

Please observe the difference.
You may wish to ask Iain McKie for sight of these alleged documents as, by the sounds of it they would assist you in proving wrong-doing within U-Division.

I also said that I didn't know much about the case that 'free the killie 2' was campaigning about.

However as it was 'free the killie 2' and not the 'free the killie 1' I presumed, perhaps misguidedly, that his efforts extended to securing the liberty of both Patrick Docherty and Brendan Dixon.

30

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 04/06/2007 01:10:31

Crystal Ball
You forgot to add that the SCRO officers are all now out of Jobs (Wonder Why eh?)
You also forgot to add that our Government paid out £750.000 to Shirley McKie.
Do you seriously want us to even think this would have been done if there was any Doubt At-All that she was Guilty.
Boyd's last attempt before he resigned dont forget, was to try and obtain DNA from this fingerprint.
You can bet your last dollar that if there was any serious doubt this money would never have been paid out.
Then you also forgot to add that Shirley McKie Stood Trial and was Aquitted of all charges.
It would seem that you are the only one right eh?
Look at the calls for Judicial Enquiry at the following

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/about17.html

31

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 04/06/2007 01:17:42

Crystal Ball.
Freethekillie2 as i know him can only speak of the whereabouts of his own Family on the day in Question and has no knowledge of the whereabouts of the other.
If you bothered to read what is said then you will see that he states the two Accused were not friends and did not run about with each other.
If your assumption is right about secret papers then why were these not produced at the Trial. Even this merits Enquiry into U Division.

http://sccrcunjustdecisions.myfastforum.org/

32

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 04/06/2007 01:39:53

#22 Freethekillie2

I read just the other day that pervs were to be tested by Lie Detectors if they go missing.
Maybe you should write a letter to the Justice Minister demanding such action for the Killie2. After all Justice must be seen to be done.
If they are willing to accept this as evidence now against pervs then it must be acceptable in all cases.
I know you are willing to pay for this Test from your own pocket, And this should never be denied you. But do me a favour and tell his lawyer you are willing to pay for this test and have it done before his Appeal is Heard. No more delays Please.
The prison Governor cannot deny this request from his defence team, But they can deny the press from asking. Sort it out.
I'm Sure Paddy Hill or John McManus from MOJO should be able to help in this department.
Crystal Ball.
Sorry i omitted from my last comment: The presumption of Innocence in the Killie 2 case would be applied to the two of them if it could be proven that evidence was fabricated, In past cases of Hearsay like Campbell And Steele it is well known that Love was let off with firearms charges for giving evidence against them. HEARSAY
Joe Granger was also charged in this case because he had the Ba--s to stand up in court and say the police Beat his confession out of him (What was known in those days as VERBALLED) Granger was charged with Perjury and still protests his Innocence.
Please if anyone wants to debate cases like this please come to the following forums.
Click on test forum and take your pick.

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/sutra34.php#34

33

Anthony,

Glasgow 04/06/2007 09:38:00

This isn't so much about party politics. It's about who believes in justice and who doesn't. Who is offended by abuse of power by the those in positions of power against the vulnerable, and who aren't too bothered as long as their okay. It appears the SNP have more of those who do have an intrinsic core of decency and fairness running through them than Labour. On that basis, they are the better party.

This inquiry is soooo long overdue. Let's see minimum restrictions on their remit. Warning though: hold on to your hats folks. Building on what Colin B (2) astutely observed, this might go a lot deeper than the Shirley McKie affair and indeed even fingerpring evidence. Plenty of people know that dodgy experts have been used in other forensic areas too, to get convictions which are probably not safe. On top of that, Boyd and now Angiolini have built processes for prosecution, which all but guarantee those charged with certain offences, and especially those who cannot afford their own legal representation, will be convicted be they innocent or guilty.

34

Rab McClair,

ALBA 04/06/2007 09:46:19

#28 CRYSTAL BALL
Sir,
It has clearly escaped your attentionthat a) Shirley McKie has already been tried and found to be NOT GUILTY in the matter of the alleged print and b) the law does NOT permit a person in such circumstances to be re-tried.
As for your suggestion all one had to do to get a James Mackay report was to write to Jim Wallace is just so much Tosh. Wallace instructed the report,and Mackay(and Robertson) produced it based the facts as they saw them ...with its VERY clear implications of criminality.
For my part, this is where the story starts to get very fishy, what with the l-o-n-g period that has been allowed to elapse before the matter gets the Judicial Enquiry it clearly merits...but as for impuning the motives of a not-yet-appointed judge
takes paranoia just TOO far !!
Let's have the full blown all-singing-all-dancing Judicial process asap.......THEN and only then might we truly have victims and villains !!

35

Crystal Ball,

04/06/2007 09:57:33

Hi jiaf,

you make a couple of interesting points:

Shirleys compensation (accepted without liability, criticised by Justice One, and £500k short of the figure she took the exec to court for, why not see it through? half a mil? not to be sniffed at, as well as a court clearing your name once and for all and leading to criminal charges against the 'bad guys' why didn't this bounty appeal to her?)

Boyd seeking DNA matching with print:
nothing to hide, nothing to fear. It could have absolutely cleared her! It shows that despite the executives capitulation (on the advice of a dsicredited 'independent' expert) Boyd was still not convinced of the girl McKies innocence. Maybe he was concerned about the blanks in the logs at the locus, on which part of Shirleys defence depended.

You are correct to point out that she was cleared of perjury.
Courts never get it wrong.
Ask your friend Brendan.

As for the alleged secret papers, Iain McKie made the claim ask him for access, I'm sure as such a fervent supporter of Patrick and Brendan he'll be happy to help.

36

Crystal Ball,

04/06/2007 10:00:14

Rab:

"but as for impuning the motives of a not-yet-appointed judge
takes paranoia just TOO far !!"

Nearly as far as the article predicting them then?

37

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 04/06/2007 12:24:40

ball, there is no doubt about a fit up in the killie2 case as for marion ross i dont know. if docherty was involved both cases as said need reopened as many in u division.

38

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 04/06/2007 12:45:52

For this inquiry to work or an inquiry with a much broader remit looking into the 'culture of injustice in Scotland', and not be in the vein of previous inquiries such as Dunblane, etc, there will have to be some oversight, or inclusion on it of those who have suffered injustice themselves.

Rather than have the usual suspects dragged out as "lay members" - when they are anything but, people who have genuine experience in matters of injustice, rather than those who make careers out of it, would being a more credible air to the aims of such an inquiry - and perhaps lead to the establishment of a new way of handling inquiries in Scotland in the future, rather than the tired old fiddles which we always get.

39

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 04/06/2007 13:14:54

Crystal Ball

You must be looking in the wrong Ball now, or it is telling you lies.
Shirley was entitled to her compensation for the distress and don't forget her loss of employment.
Crown Office's attempts to frame her severely backfired on them big Time, and they were found Liable, Paying her compensation in my view was an admission of this Guilt. End Of.
As for Iain McKie being a fervent supporter of Patrick and Brendan, I think you misinterpret him.
I know and agree with him that the Two Murder cases should be re-opened because of unanswered claims.
Brendan for your info, Is not my friend, I have never seen nor spoken to him in my life, He is but a pawn stuck in a position he does not deserve.
In their attempt to clear up serious crimes U Division have left a lot of Questions like, Who's DNA was found at the scene, and how did the footprint not match any of the accused?
Brendan's Brother in Law has said he will pay for a Lie Detector test but why should he have to do this.
And lastly will Crown Office as usual wait until these men serve very long sentences before addressing these serious issues or will they act now in the interests of Justice.
This case should maybe be in the remit for any such Judicial Enquiry.

http://kevin-freethekillie2.blogspot.com/

40

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 04/06/2007 13:40:10
41

clola,

african desert southwest of Bamako Mali. 04/06/2007 14:42:47

Have never read one of these ongoing engagements before. McKie was found NOT guilty. The SCRO guys got savaged by a lot of folk, including two sets of Scots interogators. I have also read in US papers they are using the 'scottish case' to argue that finger printing is now about opinion rather than scientific fact. McKie/SCRO has brought us to this embarrassing place. There should be an open enquiry with the widest remit able to probe into every area of concern, the findings should be in public for the public. Let the cards fall wehere they may, once and for all get to the bottom of this, and prosicute where-ever necessary, without fear.

42

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 04/06/2007 18:16:36

there, is many miscarriges in britain, today but scots law needs looked at, where is justice. can things be brought into the open and can we get answers on all the miscarriages in scotland. there is a need for the law and anything to do with judiciary, to have a server body not connnected with the law society. there is a need for the truth and answers. freethekillie2.and many more innocent prisoners in scottish prisons.

43

TAXPAYER,

04/06/2007 20:39:31

A full and fair judicial inquiry requires all evidence to be looked at, in particular the fingerprint evidence as this is the basis of the whole Mckie affair. SCRO said it was her print as well as many other independant experts, other experts said it wasn't. If this is to be a fair process fingerprint evidence must form part of the inquiry. What are people scared of? Lets not forget as well as McKie being found not guilty the SCRO officers have been found not guilty. All the cards have to be laid on the table. |There are many comments on previous threads that suggest SCRO were wrong, lets not make assumtions.

comments at 31///JIAF, Anywhere Needed - Jiaf for your information not all of the SCRO officers are out of Jobs

If you wonder why some individuals accepted early retirement this perhaps is because they did not wish to work with a certain individual appointed by Cathy Jamieson. There have been a lot of errors and poor decisions made regarding this case and I am in no doubt there has been a cover up, however i believe SCRO have been used as scapegoats. So lets lay all the cards on the table and let a judge determine what went wrong.

44

Crystal Ball,

05/06/2007 00:29:44

40, JIAF

"You must be looking in the wrong Ball now, or it is telling you lies.
Shirley was entitled to her compensation for the distress and don't forget her loss of employment.
Crown Office's attempts to frame her severely backfired on them big Time, and they were found Liable, Paying her compensation in my view was an admission of this Guilt. End Of."

What lies?
When were the Crown Office found Liable of attempting to frame her? (not that I wish to defend the crown office, but you did have the cheek to call me a liar, prove this 'truth' Mr. Integrity)

Once again, the out of court (i.e. not awarded by a judge, sorry if this is an obvious distinction to make but...) settlement was made BY THE EXECUTIVE without admission of liabilty, and Ms McKie was apparantly happy to accept on these terms -depriving herself, David Asbury & Marion Ross of justice not to mention herslef of half a million pounds in the process- which also prevented, for the second time, a judge hearing the evidence of Shirley McKies OWN EXPERT who identified the locus mark as her thumbprint.

Now comparisons have been made to the Mayfield case (God bless America, and the high standards of the FBI and all those certified by them) the difference being that Mayfield was nowhere near the scene of crime, McKie was 30ft away from where her print was identified, on a number of occassions, all around the time that the print was found (it was placed between the first and second sweep)

Still the SOC logs said she never entered.
So thats okay then (Except that six people are known to be at the scene who weren't on the logs)

I agree that an investigation into the conduct of certain serving U division police officers is long long overdue.

However lets keep it seperate from this judicial enquiry for now. It's complex enough as it is and we wouldn't want any alleged perjurors to have their right to a fair trial jepordised. Everybody

45

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 05/06/2007 01:25:12

Crystal Ball.
Very Defensive of SCRO wonder why? For your info again i do Know Paddy, John and have read every word of Campbell and Steele's case and do know other people involved with Miscarriages and yes the police do lie Very Often.
I do not believe everything i read though and will await with anticipation the Judicial Enquiry which By the Way is being asked for and demanded by Iain McKie, Not the actions of someone with something to hide i would not have thought eh?

46

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 05/06/2007 01:55:10

For the interested there is good reading on the following subjects at the link Below.
Disclosure.
Fair Trials.
Legal Aid.
The right to Appeal.
Equality of arms.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/fairtrial/indxftm_b.h...

47

Crystal Ball,

05/06/2007 07:26:25

I agree JIAF, pressing for a full, open and comprehensive judicial inquiry is not the behaviour of somebody to hide.

Using his SNP chum(p)s to try and ensure that the remit ignores the core issue of the matter at hand (or thumb) does look a bit fishy IMHO.

Justice One didn't susbcribe to his preconditions of appearance, I don't see any truely independent judge buying into them either.

48

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 05/06/2007 15:21:08

Crystal Ball.
We will have to wait and see what transpires during this or indeed any Judicial Enquiry.
I know people who have suffered Miscarriages are also calling on our new first Minister to broaden his remit into this enquiry to engulf the whole Judiciary, That would be more than welcome for our many who have fought for years and got nowhere. I can assure you there are many.
If you visit the forum linked you can even see some have written to Mr Salmond asking for such Enquiry.
I am all for High standards of Probity, Fairness, and Justice for all.
Lets wait and see what transpires.

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/forum1.php&sid=8f...

49

Hamish Riley,

ALBA 05/06/2007 16:26:51

#48 CRYSTAL BALL
So..who in all of this has got it right apart from you??
Not Shirley McKie
Not the Lord Advocate
Not the jury in the perjury trial
Not the Executive..(McCon and CathyJI'll concede)
Not the Police Logs at the locus
Not the 170 FP experts (inc. some still in SCRO)
Not Mackay and Robertson
Not the Executive's legal team
Not the 32 officers who failed to seeSMcK at locus
Not Mike Russell and Iain McKie
Not Frontline Scotland
Everybody out of step but you then CB???
Wait for the full JE before sounding off again Eh??

50

Crystal Ball,

05/06/2007 17:29:58

& not you Hamish.

The former Lord Advocate made a litany of errors in this case.. not contesting Asburys appeal, losing vital evidence.. he did get one thing right though, the logs were incomplete.

The list of experts only had one Uk fingerprint expert on it the last I looked, and he was not from the SCRO.

MacKay & Robertson came to a conclusion but failed to support it, they make the allegation it is for them to prove it. They didn't.

The Executives legal team amde a mess of it, please read the Jsutice One report should you need any further information on this point, as it seems they agree with me.

32 officers said they never saw McKie at the locus.
That number may be reduced quite soon.
Besides, wasn't seen doesn't mean wasn't there.

Hamish I await the FULL JE with some zeal, unfortunately if this article is correct that is not what the SNP (remember Mike Russell?) seek to deliver.

51

Hamish Riley,

ALBA 05/06/2007 18:36:35

#51 C/B
I see...a further round of tosh from you sir.
Firstly, can you PROVE that Boyd "made a litany of errors"?
Secondly, there are as many SCRO officers who insist that the print was NOT SMcKie's as said otherwise...but I see you don't deny the 170 figure.
Thirdly, re Mackay and Robertson ...this is more tosh...(Mackay was retired remember), ...and he and DCI Robertson were asked to produce their findings....NOT to instigate a prosecution.Any further comment from them was forbidden by Boyd.
Fourthly, re the "executive's legal team made a mess of it"...you know this do you? You have both a legal degree to make that judgment..and access to ALL the facts behind not only THEIR decision but Lord Boyd's.....as well as the First Minister and the Justice Minister. Which university did you gain your law degree in and when?
Fifth..where is the evidence that contradicts the 32 officers who DIDN'T see SMcKie?? (Afuture "maybe" doesn't hack it here or anywhere else Sir !!...give us EVIDENCE)...and you've indicated yourself elsewhere that officers of "U" division haven't covered themselves in glory re this matter in any event.
As for Justice 1...(not only have I read it...I've sat through the countless hours of video as well)..you will know as well as I that Justice 1 gives no definitive answers re this matter, a fact recognised by the committee itself, (when expressing disquiet about their terms of reference re not being able to subpoena witnesses under oath). That is not the fault of the committee (that's down to Cathy J.) but no-one believes that despite their best efforts the key questions remained unanswered, a fact they themselves recognised.
In addition, you should be aware (what with you having the law degree etc) that once SMcKie was found "NOT GUILTY" and (as per Lord Johnson's words) "leave the court with no stain whatever on her character", the matter of p

52

freethekillie2,

05/06/2007 18:58:19

HAMISH AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAY BUT, U DIVISION NEEDS LOOKED AT IN MANY CASES, NOT JUST MARION ROSS THERE IS NO JUSTICE FOR HER AND MANY, IN THIS POLICE FORCE. CAN A REMIT BE MADE BRING IN GARETH PIERCE, AND OTHER HUMAN WRIGHTS LAWYERS ,AND MOJO SCOTLAND TO BE A PART OF IT THEN MISCARRAIGES IN U DIVISION COULD AND WOULD SEE SENSE. YOURS FREETHEKILLIE2

53

Crystal Ball,

06/06/2007 00:10:13

Well Hamish, you got me there.

Excpet that, oh dear you didn't. Read what I've written and try again.

I'll help you a bit...

You said that SCRO officers appeared on the list, they didn't. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not)
Check your facts sir.

The list is a bit of a joke anyway. How many more experts refused to sign it? 170 signatories constitutes a majority of world fingerprint opinion does it? Why didn't the author give potential signatories the option to agree with the SCRO?
Why didn't the author miss out the emotional introduction and the methodology by which to disagree? If it was an objective document then surely there would be space for experts to agree with the SCRO? If it's author was so confident about the 'mistake' then why not let potential signatories come to that conclusion on their own?

You present the Mackay report as proof of something. All it proves is that Mackay was able to read the letter from Iain McKie (look up the section where Wullie Rae gives evidence to Justice one should you require any clarification of this)

Criticisms made by Justice One were reliance on the opinion of one expert without any consultation between the SCRO experts and their critics. They criticised the payment, the amount and the lack of gagging clause. It's all there bud, read it again.
The committee was also cross party, so where is my partisan interest there?

If this article is correct then the inquiry is starting at the wrong place. It should start at the beginning. Where did the disputed mark come from?
The remit of the inquiry has the SCRO officers guilty from the start, there are other principles enshrined in law that make this unfeasable.
A FULL & OPEN JE is required. This article tells us that this is not what the SNP want.

As it stands, the remit for the enquiry looks like a McKie charter. No matter which side you are on, this is not justice. This is not about the in

54

JIAF,

Anywhere Needed 06/06/2007 00:27:51

#52 Hamish.
Well said, I also notice there's no reply to your posting.
I dont think C,B. would be happy with any outcome unless it was his own thoughts?
As for the Law Degree, It would have to be one of them two-bob shots thats going about.
Clearly Shirley has been well vindicated and not just by our courts but from other quarters, Enough.
Any Enquiry though should not just look at this case, (Why is this one special) why not cases like Campbell and Steele but to name a few, Plus the many others who are still claiming Malpractice by our Judiciary but their claims have fell on deaf ears for years or they have been subjected to the same cover-ups and criminal Practice by Crown Office.
There is also the many cases being refused Access to important Documents ie Crown Precognitions and police Statements etc etc.
Section 6 of human rights say's everyone is entitled to a fair hearing so why only Shirley McKie

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/about24.html

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/about25.html

55

Crystal Ball,

06/06/2007 08:08:06

No reply JIAF? Ooops.

You say:

"Section 6 of human rights say's everyone is entitled to a fair hearing so why only Shirley McKie"

Indeed. Lets start the JE at the beginning of this case. Where did Y7 come from? If it wasn't Shirley McKies then whose is it? This could clear the SCRO, it could clear Shirley McKie, or it could provide new evidence to bring the killer of Marion Ross to justice.

All of you who seem to endorse the McKie charter, as detailed above, why do you want to prevent this?

56

Hamish Riley,

ALBA 06/06/2007 09:45:08

#54 CB
Downhill all the way for you I'm afraid if that is the best you can do......back to "smoke and mirrors" and "I know something that you don't know"stuff straight from the playground !! Look CB, if you HAVE evidence, let's see it...if you DON'T then kindly zip it and spare us all the sight of you drowning in your own prejudices .
Also..the fact is that NUMEROUS SCRO-that- was officers have condemned the 4 for identifying the print wrongly, and if you have a list better than the 170 "jokes"I mentioned (which didn't even include the scottish "dissenters"), then LET'S SEE IT !! ...(I suppose that you'll be claiming to be a fingerprint expert as well as a lawyer now CB??)
In addition, I presented the Mackay report as PROOF of nothing at all. What I did say was that Mackay and Robertson (with impeccable police careers going back many years) were asked by the authorities to investigate the matter of the contentious print, and duly DID SO. It was not/is not their function to prosecute this matter, but was more correctly the province of the Lord Advocate who's legal role it is to decide such matters. However, the same Georgie Boyd had a quite different problem on his hands with the then-looming Lockerbie trial in Camp Zeiss, (and he may be obliged even yet to speak to his motives), but one can easily see why he may have been tempted to "duck" any controversy over the efficacy of any fingerprint evidence emanating through the scottish FP system(and from ANY SCRO or other scots FP expert).
How many times need it be repeated that the McKie perjury trial is over?. Now,I understand that you don't like the verdict, but life is like that..GET OVER IT.. a re-trial WILL NOT /CAN NOT HAPPEN....EVER.....and that's where and why the JE will commence where it will..that's not the McKie's, or Mike Russell, or the SNP...it's the b****y law mate !! ... and as for the SCRO officers, where did I ever s

57

freethekillie2,

kilmarnock 06/06/2007 15:34:17

ball, why not lie detect, ms mckie and others. will you be happy then, it is a joke brendans trial lawyer in court himself on charges. i have no doubt as you wish reopen cases in u division. shirley as i would hope has no fears about it. with a new snp minister in place can crimes in u division be looked at ? even other cases re annie, we need to start at looking into where things have gone wrong. yours freethekillie2.

58

Crystal Ball,

06/06/2007 17:11:14

57, HR, we can fight the bit out all we want, it won't change a thing, I want the original print looked at -although I have my loyalties, this would also be for the benefit of all- you don't. So be it. With that I'll leave you to it, maybe we can resume this during/after the JE?

58. I agree that there needs to be big questions asked about U Division. To do with the Marion Ross case, and although I don't know much about the Margaret Irvine case, you raise some serious questions so there too. Lie detector tests are notoriously unreliable so i don't think this would serve anybody any purpose.

Good luck in getting to the bottom of the Margaret Irvine case, I hope similar progress can be made in the Marion Ross case.

59

Hamish Riley,

ALBA 06/06/2007 19:35:42

#59 CB
Doubtless we'll speak again after the JE....which the scottish public deserve.
Final question??...What do you mean "I have my loyalties"........Are you a friend/relation etc of the SCRO officers??.....If so, I think we should be told, since it'd explain such a lot re your position on the matter !!
Good Luck....and guidance...to us all !!

60

Crystal Ball,

06/06/2007 22:09:38

My loyalty is to the truth, which -for no doubt very different reasons from me- you must share the belief that we have yet to hear.

I don't like the thought of violent murderers walking around unpunished. Do you? If not, then we have to go back to the crime scene, we have to look at what happened there, do you agree?

Now it really is goodbye.

61

Hamish Riley,

ALBA 07/06/2007 08:18:58

#61 CB
It's clear that you have a personal agenda here that you are unwilling to admit. We can but form our own conclusions as to why you have such dislike of the McKie's, the Judiciary, et al.
That's a pity, because you severely damage any scintilla of a case that you MAY have had by your obfuscation, and you do NO GOOD WHATEVER to the SCRO cause you espouse.
In that case, I can't see you ever being happy in respect of this matter, regardless of JE or not !!.............but I repeat...Good Luck. Over'n'Out.


 

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