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Experts demand sex clinics in schools

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Published Date: 20 May 2007
SECONDARY school nurses should be allowed to give children condoms and morning-after pills to tackle high rates of pregnancy and sexual disease among Scots youngsters, leading health experts have demanded.
The country's main authorities on sexual health say similar moves south of the Border have proved a success and they have vowed to lobby ministers until sex clinics in Scottish schools are authorised.

Former First Minister Jack McConnell abandoned a plan for sexual health centres in schools three years ago under pressure from the Catholic Church, which argued it would promote promiscuity.

But recent evidence from England shows that there was a 30% reduction in pregnancy rates in schools where the clinics were set up.

A conference of sexual health experts in Scotland last week overwhelmingly agreed it was time for Scotland finally to adopt the English approach.

Speaking at the Holyrood Events Sexual Health Conference in Edinburgh last week, Professor Anna Glasier, director of family planning at NHS Lothian, said: "I want the new minister for health to allow us to provide contraception and sexual health services in targeted schools, for example those in rural communities and areas where teenage pregnancies are high.

"I think we should stop being defeatist about it. Education departments have got to get ready for it."

Tim Street, director of the Family Planning Association Scotland, said: "The ideal service would be a general health clinic within the school to advise on the full range of contraception and prescribe contraception and emergency contraception. If

a 14-year-old needs emergency contraception a nurse could be ideally placed to make that distinction without having to involve parents.

"This is going to be a sustained barrage of lobbying ministers from lead clinicians, sexual health experts and the voluntary sector.

"This is much more of an issue now than it was before because of the new evidence that has been gathered in England. It's a practical approach with Scotland's rural issues. Some young people in rural areas can face a four-hour round-trip to the doctor and they can't do that without their parents giving them a lift."

A survey of 54 experts at the conference showed all but three believed that schools should provide contraceptives and sexual health services because of its marked effect in other areas of the UK. Most also believed that parents and teachers are not best equipped to teach children effectively about sexual health.

Hawys Kilday, chief executive of Scotland's biggest teenage sexual health service, Caledonia Youth, said: "Having clinics in schools that are delivered by the right person is fundamental. At the moment it is at best patchy.

"Many young people are not sure how confidential their school nurse service is.

"If we want to make a difference we should offer sex education, health information and counselling in a way that young people will access it in confidence.

"For many young people in rural areas they have to be taken to school by their parents so the only place they could go is the school setting. The whole sexual health debate has to start now."

In 2004 an expert group tried to recommend the move for the Scottish Executive's £15m sexual health strategy, Respect and Responsibility.

However, this sparked a row with the Catholic Church and the final strategy stopped short of such proposals, instead allowing teachers to direct their pupils to clinics.

Last week, experts said that two years on from the launch of the strategy, Scotland's sexual health remained poor. A recent survey of Scottish youngsters aged 16 to 24 found nearly a third lost their virginity below the age of consent, and 57% said they had had a one-night stand. A total of 38% said they did not always use condoms with new partners.

Despite the mounting weight of statistics and advice from professionals, Scotland's new minister for public health last night all but ruled out the move.

Shona Robison told Scotland on Sunday: "I would be very reluctant to go down that route because we then get into a situation where many parents are concerned about what's going to be offered in schools.

"However, we need to make sure that there are places accessible to young people that they feel comfortable using."

A spokesman for the Catholic Church in Scotland said: "Over the past few years we have seen more availability of the morning-after pill which was at first only available on prescription but is now free through pharmacies and there has not been a change in teenage pregnancies. These schemes do not change the underlying behaviour."

The full article contains 769 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 May 2007 8:49 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Sex education
 
1

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

20/05/2007 00:00:10
2

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

20/05/2007 00:11:17

Done in 1969 .............Edward Griffin's - Seduction of a Generation :) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-53001424757232...

3

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20/05/2007 00:23:50
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4

Jock MacSprog,

20/05/2007 01:55:53

the more future neds that can be prevented the better. I am all for it.

5

Conan,

Here 20/05/2007 04:20:19

Well, why doesn't she just volunteer to sha* them right there and save everyone the time, trouble and expense - if she's so interested in facilitating juvenile sex?

6

W Smith,

Middle East 20/05/2007 05:02:22

Giving teenage girls contraception without telling the parents - eh?

So it becomes a state secret then. Bloody hell! Marxism is alive and well in Scotland.

In Scotland the number of single mums has gone up 25% since Labour came to power which is more to do with our very generous social security system than sex education.

In the 90's Bill Clinton passed a bill that cut the social security benefits for single mums in the US and SURPRISE SURPRISE the number of single mums in the USA has gone down!

I see the 'experts' in Scotland don't want to talk about this.

70% of black kids in the USA are from single parent families. 70 fu#2&ng percent!

This started in the 1960's, under Lefty President Lyndon B Johnson who wanted to eradicate poverty - with generous pay outs from 'the social'.

Marriage amongst blacks went down and the number of black single mums rocketed!

(By cutting benefits Lefty Bill Clinton's helped turn this situation around).

Under Labour the pattern in Scotland is similar as the 1960's amongst the US blacks - with more Scots coming from dysfunctional families.

So the Scots are, in this respect, becoming the african americans of the United States of Europe. Gee thanks!

Add to the mix drugs and alcohol abuse, violent crime, etc and you can see where this is going.

Smart Successful Scotland my ar#@!

Well done Labour - socialism at its best!

7

Ichabod,

20/05/2007 05:41:04

I love the use of the word 'Experts' here.

Should that not read 'Self-opinionated?'

8

Centurion2,

Glasgow 20/05/2007 06:17:40

I simply cannot accept the views of anyone who refers to the "morning- after pill" as emergency contraception. This is completely dishonest.

If conception hasn't taken place , it serves no purpose at all. If conception has occurred, it is chemical abortion.

Underage pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases and abortions figures are now much higher than they were before the advent of these "experts" with their totally amoral approach to sex.

9

john montgomery,

20/05/2007 06:21:26

seems we are now pressing the panic button. we have the highest STD rate in Europe, highest binge drinking among teenagers, and highest teenage pregnancy rate. Pregnancy rate must be allied to drinking habits so they would not use condoms anyway. recent research also among teenagers showed they do not like to use them .

In a country where people get tittilated by mens' mags and comics like the News of the World is it any wonder we have problems.

10

john montgomery,

20/05/2007 06:22:36

agree#9 we have had all sorts of experts for years and they have not helped one bit.

11

redandwhitehoops,

20/05/2007 06:56:24

#4 keep your paedophillic views to yourself, get some therapy.

12

Cadgers,

Perth 20/05/2007 07:21:45

Tell all the pregnant teenies they WON'T get a cooncil hoose, they'll have to stay at home. No house, no free furniture, no free hand outs.

13

Alamo,

Glasgow 20/05/2007 07:34:53

#5 Jock MacSprogg.
#13 Cadgers

Spot on......!!!

14

Boy Wonder,

20/05/2007 08:07:35

Going into Primary Schools with sex education is never wanted, but clearly it is necessary when a child becomes a mother at 13!!

My partner told me her best pal lost her virginity aged 11!! Frankly, that's a scary thought. I'd swing for the boy who touches my daughters before they're at least 16, and even then I won't be happy about it!

They know about sex and even though we've taught them that it should be a special time when it happens, there's no telling what's ahead. So by all means, educate them at school, but parents need to teach their kids at home too.

15

David Chapman,

Aberdeen 20/05/2007 08:13:17

#9 - Your sheer ignorance of the mechanics of pregnancy and contraception is stunning. No wonder you feel qualified to comment on the subject.

The morning-after pill does NOT cause rejection of an implanted embryo. It prevents the egg being fertilised, which can take up to 12 hours after sex. Implantation of a fertilised egg may also be prevented; this takes place five to seven days after sex. This is exactly the same effect as the regular pill.

The reason the MAP is emergency contraception is because the effect desired requires a buildup in the body's hormone levels. The regular pill does this over a period of time and afterwards is maintained by small daily doses. The MAP has to do it all at once, so the dosage administered is far greater. This has frequent painful side-effects.

16

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 08:21:23

Alternative approach:

Teach morals in schools.

Stop ALL financial assistance where babies born to mothers <16.

Prosecute all children involved in consensual under age sex - male and female.

18

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20/05/2007 09:08:05
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20/05/2007 09:10:05
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20/05/2007 09:15:10
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21

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20/05/2007 09:16:17
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22

John1,

Stirling 20/05/2007 09:26:11

"... without having to involve parents."
This says it all. Government must stop the humanist brainwashing which has led to the current state of this country. It has gone on far too long. These people must be prevented from getting their grubby hands on the minds of our children.

23

Garry Otton,

RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM 20/05/2007 09:26:44

And HOW long have we known this? And WHO has consistantly prevented these measures being enacted despite massive evidence of their success in Europe? And why do such reports continue to trot out the Catholic Church's propaganda that providing full and proper support and sex education is not working when they have consistantly prevented Scotland from ever having it in the first place? And written by Kate Foster...? Didn't she, along with so many of SoS reporters used to write for the Daily Mail?

24

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20/05/2007 09:33:30
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20/05/2007 09:36:38
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,

20/05/2007 09:43:12
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27

Rudi,

Mozambique 20/05/2007 09:50:22

Totally agree with #17

28

Cadgers,

Perth 20/05/2007 10:00:41

#17 & #28 That's all very well them being taught morals at school but absolutely useless if there are none at home.

29

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 10:06:11

21

But it has already been proven that YOU are a "kiddie fiddler" too, Salt Horse.Your criticism of others is sheer hypocrisy.

Hang your head in shame, kiddie fiddler.

30

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 10:10:04

24

Catholics are as entitled to speak out as anyone else. There is more to life than intolerant secularism.

Let's teach morals, and penalise under age fornicators rather than rewarding them.

Teach teenage girls to think with their brains rather than their clitorides, and adolescent boys to keep their knobs in their trousers.

31

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 10:12:58

29

Then let's remedy that too.

The rapid decline to moral deparivity need not be accelerated. Let's arrest the decline.

My plan - at 17 - has three actions, each designed to stop depravity, despair and wasted lives.

32

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 10:56:30

It is an irrefutable fact that our nation's kids are indulging in sexual activity at an earlier stage than previous generations. The religious fundies in our midst preach abstinance until marriage but why should us non-believers accept the mores of such backward and sex-obsessed zealots?

The need for proper education about sex and the provision of appropriate and practical services - close to the point of need - is plainly apparent.

The rate of teenage pregnancies (although falling) is still a cause of concern in Scotland and we compare badly to more socially liberal countries such as Holland and the Scandanavian states where sex education and discussions on sexual health matters are much more woven into society. In these countries discussions on sex - between parent & child and at school - is taken for granted and the rates of unplanned pregnancies are consequently low.

The difference here is that the pygmy politicians are terrified of upsetting the sensibilities of the Roman Catholic church - a reactionary organisation obsessed with what we get up to in the bedroom. Other churches are not far behind.

Yes, there are impacts arising from engaging in sexual activity at an early age. The stats on increasing STDs and evidence of increased rates of cervical cancer (believed to be a consequence of having a number of sexual partners at a relatively young age) are there to see.

Knowledge is the key here and we must get across to our kids that sex is not a consequence free activity. It should not be entered into (no pun intended) without an awareness of the potential issues which can arise. Young adults (for that is what they are) need to know that unprotected sex - often connected with excessive alcohol consumption - can have disastrous consequences: in health terms, but also socially and economically.

I started my sexual adventures in the late 1970s and, frankly, had a great time with a number of partners - both lo

33

Garry Otton,

RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM 20/05/2007 11:00:51

No Tuxedo. Secularism is necessary to create a safe space for religionists to squabble and strut without damaging the rights of everyone else. Intolerance is the Catholic record on homosexuality and their abuse of gay kids rights in their schools.

34

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 11:06:16

Garry,

Now you're making factual errors. Catholicism is not intolerant of homosexuality.

You have attacked Catholicism a few times, Garry.

What's your view of the attitude of other faiths to this issue?

35

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 11:14:40

#35

The Catholic Church IS homophobic - as are all the other Christian faiths. "Man shall not lie with man" and all the other Old Testament guff.

Islam is also horribly anti-homosexual - with Judaism and the other superstition-based belief systems not far behind.

Sadly, and shamefully, homosexuals die because of religious nutjobs' literal interpretation of ancient texts which preach haterd and bigotry. And that's a fact.

Sorry for taking thread off subject.

36

Boab,

Glasgow 20/05/2007 11:19:43

Better education reduces experimentation with sex: fairly hard to argue with that. Not sre about giving out condoms without parental knowledge - bit of a minefield there ... although this would be an ideal way for health professionals to monitor sexual behaviour amongst under-agers - someone has to be giving out these condoms, remember. Little bit of advice and counseling there wouldn't go amiss, especially if parents couldn't care less.

37

Centurion2,

Glasgow 20/05/2007 11:21:52

Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot, etc., secular fundies all.

38

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 11:23:38

33

A bit of a rant there.

What are you advocating?

39

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 11:25:04

36

I'm more conmcerned that you misinform that you take us off subject.

Catholicism is not intolerant of homosexuality.

40

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 20/05/2007 11:26:29

this is a good thing - there's too many people in the world, it's in a mess because of it. It infuriates me how year after year Gordon Brown says "child povery? We must do something about that. Poor and responsible enough not to have any kids? Sorry, I don't care about you, stay poor." And I'm not a Brown-hater, but that has always annoyed me.

41

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 11:26:53

Freethinker

Interesting pseudonym.

I see myself as a Freethinker too. And as freethinkers, we seem to be arriving at different conclusions.

That's fair.

Are you willing to allow me to pursue MY beliefs?

42

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 11:32:20

# 38

Yes - but the point here is that they didn't claim - as so many religious zealots do - to act in the name of God/Allah etc. Whenever I hear someone claiming to be doing "God's work" I know its generally going to be bad news.

Can we get back on subject?

43

I'm no really here,

20/05/2007 11:37:09

The children have low morals because of a lack of moral education - so the solution? Lower their morals even more!!

Low moral standards are the norm today - so what are the "experts" solution?? - Lower the Standards.

Thank the Lord there are still some good parents who teach their children properly - may God help the rest, because obviously no bloody "expert" will.

As far as I am concerned, that is the face of an evil woman.

44

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 11:41:58

44

Good post. Thanks.

Let's just give Debbie (13) a condom so that she can pop round the back of the bike shed for a shag with Derek (14)

Nice.

Not only is it disgusting, depraved, and immoral.....it's illegal.

Let's educate children to have morals better than dogs.

45

de bono,

20/05/2007 11:48:16

Increasing levels of teenage pregnancy and the spread of STDs among young people reflects patterns of behaviour that are endemic in Western society:

I have the right to do what I want whenever I want to do it.

It's not my responsibility.

Sex is a commodity to be traded in transactional relationships.

I can only enjoy myself by getting wasted.

The professor's demand that teenagers are given emergency contraception or advice on abortion without the knowledge of the parents is worrying in a number of ways:

Undermines the parent-child relationship.

It replaces proper caring parenthood.

The government would be giving young people a mandate to live a double life and not to turn to their parents.

Strengthens the idea that you can do what you like and that there will be a mechanical/chemical solution.

I've known a lot of professors. A good proportion of academics are less than impressive and often limited by ideological biases.

Clearly, morals are the problem. People need to understand sexuality in a way that incorporates respect.

Everything is sexualised and commodified and young women develop versions of self worth based on the projections of society.

I'm with the Catholic Church on this one.

46

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20/05/2007 11:52:30
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47

Centurion2,

Glasgow 20/05/2007 11:56:31

#43
The fact that these three among them caused, in just a few years, the deaths of more people than all the religious conflicts in the history of the world not suit your freethinking biased logic?

48

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 11:56:41

# 42 Tuxedo Junction

I'm generally in favour of freedom of speech and freedom of action.

However, for society to function, we all accept certain restictions on our freedoms. For example I am not "free" to walk into the street and assault someone without legal consequences.

I do not know what your beliefs are but I would support your right to hold them. I would, however, strongly attack beliefs which are based on a set of "rules" based on the ridiculous notion of a (very cruel and sectarian) supernatural being who looks down upon us.

By the way - your desire to "penalise underage fornicators" enables me to get a pretty good idea of the type of person you are. Frankly, it's not positive. Do you happen to foam at the mouth when fulminating?

Finally - the term for the female sex organ is the "clitoris" and not the "clitoride" as you stated at # 24. Perhaps you never received good sex education at school! Maybe your partner (if you have one) might have preferred you had! :-)

49

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 12:02:50

49

the plural for the female sex organ is: clitoride.

Looks like MY education was good.

If my freethinking views were devout Catholic, and I used those beliefs to arrive at my various moral stances, would you then allow me to have those morals and beliefs?

We're seeing lots of negativity from you, Freethinker. What are you advocating here?

See my post 45 - should Debbie and Derek be given condoms for a quick shag?

50

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 12:04:18

49

A dictionary extract to further YOUR education, Freethinker:

Clitoris (plural, clitorides; adjective, clitoral or clitoridean): the small, hooded organ at the top of the cleft of the female vulva, which is the counterpart of the penis in the male [from Greek, kleitoris, clitoris]. In the rat, mouse, and hamster, the clitoris is not hooded, but its covering is fused as in the male's penis to form a uninary tube.

51

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20/05/2007 12:08:49
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52

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 12:11:34

52

Why would a girl of 13 be planning a family?

53

de bono,

20/05/2007 12:14:21

Fascinating stuff tuxedo.

Freethinker. Your characterisation of the Catholic Church being obsessed with what we do in our bedrooms is interesting.

You then go on to share with us your own sexual adventures.

Sex is at the centre of relating - the way we conceptualise sexuality is crucial to society and to individual human well being.

For this reason all religions have a lot to say about sex.

Why do you have a problem with that Freethinker?

Catholic teaching focuses on sexuality being properly understood within the context of an emotional and spiritual relationship where there is respect and commitment.

Do you disagree with this?

54

Lindsay A,

Ed. 20/05/2007 12:15:41

Teenagers can already obtain condoms and the morning-after pill from either their doctor/health clinic or a chemist without parental consent. So the only real change this introduces is ease of access (ex. not having to take time off to go to their Dr or a pay at a chemist). I don't really see what the fuss is about.

55

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 12:24:41

I'll concede the point about the female organ - I missed that you had referred to young females in the plural.

Look - individuals are free to hold any views they like. It would take chemical or electrical intervention to change that - and the end result would be impossible to predetermine to any degree. Needless to say I would never, ever, endorse such a terryfying "1984" notion.

Where I would take issue with anyone's beliefs - religious-based or not - is where they implemented actions or policies which impinged on the human rights of others.

For example- Christians in Pakistan have been murdered by militant Muslims because of their faith.

In the USA a militant Christian - believing the teachings of God gave him this right - murdered a worker in a clinic which provided abortion services.

In Israel/Palestine - the fundamentalist Jews subjugate the Palestinians because of their belief that they have a "God-given" right to occupy the land there.

In Afghanistan Islamic fundamentalists deny females the right to education and kill teachers trying to teach young girls. Why? Because they can point to text in the Koran or the Hadith to justify the denial of the most basic of human rights.

I could go on - but I'm sure you'll get the message.

Religion and human rights - not comfortable roomies.

56

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 12:31:16

# 54 de bono

Catholics, Mormons, Scientologists, Cargo-cultists et al can lead their lives in any way they choose.

So long as they don't wish to impose their views on the greater - and increasingly secular - public. If they do I reserve the right to oppose them.

It's simple really.

57

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20/05/2007 12:34:17
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58

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 12:47:45

#58 Digory

My earlier reference to family planning was based on the artice which referred to comments on the provision of in-school facilities made by Professor Anna Glasier, director of family planning at NHS Lothian.

You may well be correct about the need to keep separate "family planning" (itself a somewhat twee and outmoded term) and provision of sexual health advice to teenagers.

The general point I'm railing against is the narrow-minded and ostrich-like attitudes from religious types who perpetuate the myth that if we don't talk to our kids about sex they won't do it.

All the evidence runs contrary to such dangerous nonsense.

59

Andyvh,

20/05/2007 12:52:59

....and when the clinics are in place and the children tutored in the mechanics of sex... Why?????? Is the pervy androgenous professor in the photo a clue??

60

Andyvh,

20/05/2007 12:55:21

57 Freethinker - Your views on the autonomy of the individual is not good for society. Agreed, noone wants narrow supernatural opinions imposed on us, but until all the inidividuals get together with a common set of basic values, we are all on our own.

61

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 12:55:34

#60. Andyvh

A stupid, sexist & tasteless comment.

If you've nothing constructive to say ........

62

de bono,

20/05/2007 13:00:44

Freethinker, consider this:

Secular, liberal individualist, commercialist thinking is what actually dominates Western culture.

The commodification of everything (environment, our time, our bodies, sex) is imposed upon all of us by a market driven society.

Religion is generally based upon enduring traditional moralities that have deep roots and a very well developed conceptualisation of human well being and flourishing.

Morality is in disarray and young people are the inheritors of the screwed up society that is the product of this.

Freethinker - what is really imposed on us? Individualism, consumerism, greed is good, no reponsibility . . .

What's needed is more input on morality for young people, not less.

Your point about human rights and religion - biased and fishing out all the extreme examples. This is called proof texting - looking for data to prove your pre-existing point of view.

There are bad things in every religion - as there are in every society.

Human rights actually have their origin in the Catholic Church - they were first conceptualised by St Thomas Aquinas and later elaborated by Bartolomeo de las casas.

Faith based organisations across the world fight for people's economic, social, cultural, civil and political rights.

Freethinking? You'd need to be better informed to take on that title.

63

Andyvh,

20/05/2007 13:10:37

62/ Freethinker - I think you missed the point. Rather than freethinking, you should try thinking the unthinkable - because that what the legislators are capable of.

64

Em,

20/05/2007 13:11:33

How long before naive school girls are whisked away to abortion clinics without the knowledge of her parents.

This whole fiasco is about taking away parents rights and placing it in the hands of the state.

I recently watched an interview with film maker Aaron Russo where he talks about his conversations with Nick Rockerfeller. Rockerfeller asked him what do you think womens liberation was about, Russo thinking it was about womens rights explained this, Rockerfeller then said "let me tell you what it was about, We the Rockerfellers funded womens lib and there were two primary reasons for this, one was before we couldn't tax half the population and the second reason was now we can get the kids in school at an early age, we can indoctrinate the kids on how to think, it breaks up the family, the kids start looking at the state as the family with the school as the officials of the family and not as their parents teaching them."

This certainly does seem to be the case as parental rights are being eroded in favour of the state taking over educating there children.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=542075383042659...

65

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20/05/2007 13:14:43
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66

Glenn,

20/05/2007 13:15:08

What about a school dentist instead?

When I was at school we were not taught by perverts about sex...that was "the little talk" given to us by mum or dad, and even then it was only when we had reached a certain age. We were taught to keep it in our pants and that our ability to do so was what separated us from the animals.

Now it seems to be forced upon children who should be still playing games rather than bonking their brains out! Why even bother teaching them how its done then saying now you know how its done, don't do it...at least without one of our condoms or pills.

Why would any grown adult stranger want children to know about sex, I mean apart from the paedophiles...answer...no reason really.

How long until these self proclaimed experts of sex with children(lets call this what it is), are forced to all have live demonstrations courtesy of teacher! Prison is not good enough for people like that.

67

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20/05/2007 13:20:45
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68

David Robert,

Richmond 20/05/2007 13:33:51

I wish people could get away from slagging off the Catholic Church. I am not a Catholic but have met many very pleasant genuine Catholic priests. Sure they have their share of perverts. But so does probably any large organisation. What I do hate is when they try and cover up abuses. If they would only let their priests marry as was the case until the tenth centrury a lot of the abuses would not happen.

I hate so called experts. Self opinionated as has been said elsewhere. Experts always seem to be wrong. If I am ever called an expert in my own field I always correct the person saying I am a specialist. Specialists are normally right, experts never.

Sex clinics should not be in schools. They are places for learning not for encouragement of sh*****g.

Religious organisations do have rules on sexual behaviour, based on having a civilised society. I do not condone the stoning of homosexuals, or similar acts, but a lot of them seem to act as though it should be normal behavior to sh*g around, with no concept of morality.

The trouble with many of these so called experts is that they are Hampstead chatterers who wish to bring about some sort of socialist state and achieve this by breaking down all existing conditions. They especially hate the family because to them, that represents something incompatible with everything being controlled by the State. To have a society which encourages total sexual freedom to them helps break down the old order. Get rid of the experts!!!

A quick way to educate the youngsters about sex is to withdraw all State aid, like free housing, well free to them but we pick up the bill. Pregnancy rates will soon drop like a stone, as in America.

Until comparatively recently girls didn't drop their knickers at the drop of a hat. The trouble is that if they act like this, they don't acquire any sense of one to one commitment. If they could be taught that long term most blokes don't want to go where umteen blokes have

69

Garry Otton,

RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM 20/05/2007 14:29:59

Thanks, Freethinker.
I've heard it all now, how religionists are so tolerant, martyrs to human rights etc etc. Gimme a break! I was here when the hate-filled messages on every available site across Scotland were posted; when religious leaders condemned gays as 'perverts', when their PR brigade hijacked the media to get their vile message across and gays were targeted and beaten up. Illustrations of how to spot a homosexual appeared in papers at that time. £2m of dirty money went into that. Religion denied me a proper sex education while my Dutch pals grow up with much better and safer attitudes about gay sex, begun in primary school, and have a teenage pregnancy rates some seven times lower than Scotlands. When will we ever learn?

70

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20/05/2007 14:38:04
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20/05/2007 14:46:05
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Newliston,

Fife 20/05/2007 14:52:23

Sorry, but why do we need to spend a small fortune, employing another expensive bunch of politically correct do gooders with a cause to provide another disruption to the school curriculum?
There is nothing hard about use a condom. The pupils at my daughters school hear this regularly and have all had hilarious fun fitting all sorts of condoms over whatever suitable fruit or veg is to hand. They all know the risks and the preventative solution. Not rocket science. Incidentally, it is one of Scotland's biggest schools & there is < 1 pregnancy a year.
Soc Ed is the place for this and if the local health service wants to make themselves available at the right time to assist, fine. No need to divert resources from and disrupt education.

73

Becket Montague Saunders,

Texas 20/05/2007 15:12:25

One need only scan this thread to see why the Judeo-Christian Western Culture is in such serious trouble.

The Islam-fascists must dance with glee, and 'cluck' thier tongues when they read this.

74

Becket Montague Saunders,

Texas 20/05/2007 15:21:48

56 'freethinker'

"Look - individuals are free to hold any views they like."

Not in the East. Not in the ME, nor China, nor too the happy little land of Russia.

And your loose invitation to moral anarchy is what has gotten where we are-TROUBLE.

Your brand of 'freedom' is nuts.

75

John1,

Stirling 20/05/2007 15:40:04

First Encounters with Sex

Adolescence is a difficult time at best. The body is changing from a child to an adult. In the course of this process, chemicals are dumped in the bloodstream, resulting in an imbalance which produces sometimes violent mood swings, inexplicable embarrasment and changes in outlook. Desires we did not have or were only vaguely aware of as children become important. One of these is the sex drive. This can take us by surprise with its intensity. Immature adolescents can be overwhelmed by it.

It is best to remember that we inhabit animal bodies which are programmed to do two things - 1) to survive, and 2) to reproduce. Without our control our bodies will do whatever is necessary to achieve these two things, which is why, while in full possession of our senses, we need to set ourselves limits for how far our relationship with a member of the opposite sex can be allowed to go and apply those limits when our brains go fuzzy and our bodies feel on fire.

Sex can be wonderful but the sex drive is a very powerful force. It is necessary for it to be under control. Each of us individually has to do this. Others can advise but only the individual can decide. Either you control it or it will control you. The way to control it is to prescribe limits to your behaviour for everyday life and only allow it full freedom within marriage. Save nudity and sexual intercourse for your wedding night and your husband or wife. Outside marriage set limits on how far you can allow yourself to go with someone to whom you are not married; Kiss? - perhaps; Cuddle? - perhaps; Roving hands? - definitely not: no fondling or touching, nothing further, and always in public, never in private where tighter restrictions apply. This is the furthest things can be allowed to develop. The willingness and approval of the other participant is also necessary, and a matter for fine judgement! You have also to remember that the other person's limit

76

B.J.,

Canada 20/05/2007 15:41:45

What happened to teaching kids self respect and respect for others, rather than using other people for sex at a young age?

77

Byron Massey,

USA 20/05/2007 15:45:05

I think the people who want to give condoms out and morning after pills be a tiny bit honest and confess their desire to have a consequence-free life.

Also, they should also be told that the stats of benefits of this libertine life have details and the Devil is in the details. The people keeping the stats on the glorious success of encouraging sexual activity among children have a vested interest in keeping the details from the public.

Here in America, the condom handout programs fail.
Why? The same teenager with the rubber in his wallet will down a six-pack and race his Subaru at deadly speeds. Why should he suddenly become responsible? And the girls? They have access to the abortionist.

I think the people in Scotland should get all the sexual freedom they want. I think the kids should be told how "natural and beautiful" it is. I think the results of getting what you want should also be made known.

78

JWS,

USA 20/05/2007 16:16:11

Have the so-called experts looked at what others have done and learned anything? We already do what is being proposed here in the USA and it is a dismal failure.

79

whattheheck,

20/05/2007 16:30:41

the Catholic Church, which argued it would promote promiscuity.

eh? this, the church, filled with paedophile priests that rape our children, or have affairs with young women or in fact...homosexual affairs?

the mind boggles that the church has any say over such private issues when it cant even control its own priest.

80

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20/05/2007 16:37:58
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www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

20/05/2007 16:40:37
82

whattheheck,

20/05/2007 16:42:01

#83 eh?

83

Byron Massey,

USA 20/05/2007 17:15:32

I think #83 presents a case for birth control most admirably.

84

grannie,

Glasgow 20/05/2007 17:16:41

When I was young if someone who was unmarried became pregnant it was usually around the age of 19/20 and was to a boy she had been seeing for sometime. I remember the experts would say this was due to ignorance so they decided to teach children about sex in schools. As the years have progressed children have been getting sex instruction younger and younger on advice from the experts and we now have children having children. I think its about time these would be experts just shut up and we went back to the days when children had a childhood and were allowed to grow up innocent..

85

Rami,

New Hampshire 20/05/2007 17:19:24

OH MY GAWD, you've got to be kidding; day after
pill????????? Middle School??????????What will
you Scots think of next!!!!!Please I really doont'
want to know, thankyu:-(

86

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 17:40:51

82

whattheheck

That's rich coming from you, whattheheck, a known paedophile and child rapist.

87

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 17:44:26

56

Freethinker

How about human rights and intolerant seculars? Are they good roomies?

88

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 17:45:47

57

Should intolerant seculars be allowed to impose their views on religious people?

89

Byron Massey,

USA 20/05/2007 18:43:33

From my experience, the tolerant seculars are hardly tolerant and given time and opportunity they will become modern day Leninist's or Mao's or (name your tyrant).

When measured against the negatives of the tolerant seculars, the negatives of the religious pale into nothing.

God bless you all.

90

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 19:24:53

Followers of religion always fall back on the argument that just because that's the way it's always been their particular faith is entitled to special treatment and respect - and should not subject to inquiry or rational scrutiny. Why?

The various belief systems are essentially a hotch-potch of myths, legends and restrictive and archaic rules (many freely plagiarised from earlier traditions) designed to control the otherwise freethinking mind.

The word "Islam" means total "submission to god" The Christian god also demands total obedience - or else you'll go to hell. He'll also destroy the world as he apparently did when he sent the great flood and murdered everyone except Noah's family who happened to be a pretty good boatbuilder with a zookeeping bent. Oh - we're also born with the risible and nausating concept of "original sin" because he got into a strop over an apple and a serpent in some garden. Do us a favour - please!

As H L Mencken said "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." Succinctly put!

http://www.fstdt.com/

Organised religion - A crutch for weak-minded people

91

Sambo,

The deep south 20/05/2007 19:30:05

Anna looks like my old primary teacher in school. A bit like Jean Brodie.
The picture makes her look like she wouldn't mind a rumble behind the jannie's house.

92

Sambo,

The deep south 20/05/2007 19:32:54

#87 Grannie.
Nobody got pregnant back then, they just whisked them away to the country for an extended holiday.

93

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 19:44:33

93

Freethinker

I have to tell you that I'm far from weak minded, but I am a devout believer of an organised religion.

Like you, I'm a free thinker. But MY free thinking has led me to be a devout Catholic.

Your posts today have been a lesson in intolerance. Your thinking on the topic in hand has been muddled, and vague. You have used this article as an excuse to mount an attack on the beliefs of others, arguing latterly that those who have different beliefs from you must be weak minded.

I believe in a world where individuals are free to choose what they believe in. I would not consider insulting others whose beliefs are different from mine. Live and let live.

So, Freethinker, let me ask you for your comments on the article in hand.

What are YOUR freethinking views?

What does your freethinking mind lead you to advocate here?

Condoms from 13 year old girls?

94

Pilrig,

Livingston 20/05/2007 19:48:33

92 - The Inquistion was a hoot !

95

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 19:48:33

*Condoms for 13 year old girls?

96

Sambo,

The deep south 20/05/2007 19:54:54

Tuxedo Junction,
I agree that your right to believe in your religion should not be infringed. However may I say that religion has caused more wars and suffering on this planet since mankind occupied it.

97

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:00:36

Can I just recommend that readers click on the link provided by Freethinker at the end of post #93?

I think a few minutes around that site will reveal just how sick and intolerant that particular bigot is.

Freethinker - here's some freeadvice: give up the bigotry and learn tolerance.

98

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:01:20

99

Name the most recent, and the religions that participated.

99

Em,

20/05/2007 20:01:24

#93

Why are you so down on religion, surely if nothing else you could see that the ten commandments are a pretty good way to live your life and would make for a pretty good society regarding you should not steal, lie, kill, commit adultry etc..

And your comment "Organised religion A crutch for weak-minded people" well I have to disagree with that, in todays society it is easier to disregard your genuine feelings and follow the cool kids in vanity saying I don't believe in anything. I think in order to be religious today you also need to be pretty thick skinned.

100

Byron Massey,

USA 20/05/2007 20:03:25

Freethinker

I have studied the Inquistion. It was a rare distortion of an organized religion.

The regimes of the enlightened officially atheist Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler etc....accomplished what?

101

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 20:07:36

# 96 TJ

If you were in a position of political power would you outlaw abortion?

Do you really believe when you take communion that you are literally drinking the blood of Christ? Of course you do because as a devout Catholic that's what you've been instructed to believe. If so, can you please use your free thinking mind to explain just how that occurs?

And, while you're at it can you please explain to me rationally how the body of Mary was, again, literally, lifted up into heaven? Again, as a devout Catholic you are ordered to belive such fantastic and supernatural fairy tales. How could that happen - I'm genuinely interested?

If truth be told Toledo you've allowed your mind to become polluted with fanciful tosh. Unfortunately there are many like you and the impact of such mind-control has been disastrous for humanity.

102

Sambo,

The deep south 20/05/2007 20:17:07

#101 Tuxedo Junction.
For starters, how about the wars in Sudan against the Christians and Arabs.
Then there is the war in the middle east against the Jews and the Palestinians.
How about the war between the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq.
I'm not even going to mention, Hearts v Hibs, Rangers v Celtic.
I probably missed a few.

103

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:29:03

104

Freethinker

As a Freethinker, I need not justify my views to any man until he has justified HIS views to me.

So, I require the following from you:

1/ Your views on THIS topic. In #36 you apologised for going off topic (surprise surprise it was to tell some lies about the Catholic Church) and you have habitually been off topic ever since to vent your bigotry.
2/ Provide answers to the questions I have asked YOU today. Like other cowards, you habitually hide from answering questions.
3/ Explain to me what your intolerant posts today are meant to achieve.
4/ Explain to me what's wrong with "live and let live"
5/ Explain to me why MY Catholic views are of interest to you. ie how do my religious beliefs and practices impact YOU?
6/ Explain how the world began, and when.
7/ Explain to me how life began, whether human or any other form of life.
8/ Perhaps finally, you can explain to me what you hoped to achieve by correcting my spelling earlier (even though it was you who was wrong) and trying to ridicule my education (though we saw yours was lacking)

Explanations required now, bigot.

104

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 20:31:22

#105

As you suggest plenty of other religious wars. e.g.

Northern Ireland.

Iraq (after the Anglo/American invasion of 2003 Iraq has degenerated into sectarian civil war between Sunni and Shia Muslims - members of the same faith slaughtering one another in pursuit of their version of the divine way.)

Former Yugoslavia - involved Orthodox Serbs, Catholic Croats and Muslim Bosnians.

105

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:33:21

105,

Yes.....you see....your theory has kinda fallen apart....hasnt it.

Let me ask you again for something to substantiate your claim. Something factual, please?

Tell me the most recent wars caused by RELIGION and tell me which religious participated. Could I have some dates too, please?

Finally, can I remind you that in conflict between Scottish Football supporters, the vast vast VAST majority of "combatants" are heathens.

106

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:34:27

107

Freethinker

Tell us more about the religious war in Northern Ireland.

Which religions participated?

107

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:37:35

Again, can I urge others to visit and read the linmk provided by Freethinker at the end of his post # 93.

You'll see within a few minutes what kind of sicko this guy is.

108

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:38:25

Freethinker,

are my questions for you today too hard?

I note that you've failed to answer so many.

Were they too difficult?

109

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 20:40:08

#106

Funny how religionists always resort to the term "bigot" when asked to logically explain the basis of their beliefs.

Classic defence mechanism when they can't provide a rational explanation of the fundamental tenets of their faith.

The cynic in me might just conclude that your reluctance to back up your theological beliefs is because you can't - and I don't blame you!

110

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:47:08

112

Oh, a logical explanation re my beliefs is avilable to you right now.

I just need to see some answers from you.

You've been hiding from my questions for hours, presumably because they're too hard. I suspect that Freethinking has an intelligence deficit.

This might confuse your limited intellect, FT: I use the word bigot to describe a bigot.

Come on Bigot Boy.....time for some answers - OR ARE YOU TOO FRIGHTENED?

111

Em,

20/05/2007 20:48:29

#112

Actually freethinker you haven't really given any explanations yourself of questions posed to you, glass houses 'n' all that.

112

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:50:33

In post #39, at 12:23 this afternoon, I asked you a simple question, Freethinker.

Here we are.....over 9 hours later.....and no answer.

I've asked you many others......no answer.

Why?

Are the questions too hard for you?

Would you like some help to understand the questions?

Need I help you - just as I helped you with your flawed spelling?

113

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 20:54:23

Freethinker

Chick chick chick chick.....CHICKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNN!

Come on, Bigot Boy......some explanation required RIGHT NOW!

Let me know what bits you dont understand, and I'll help you - again.

114

Sambo,

The deep south 20/05/2007 20:56:53

Tuxedo Junction.
You know when I grew up in Scotland, I went to Sunday school every Sunday, never missed it in 12 years. We got a book, one of the classics each year for perfect attendance.
The church I attended was great, the centre for all community activities.
The school I attended was protestant, we were segregated from the catholics.
To tell you the truth, religion failed.
I'm not going to tell you dates of wars, I've been in wars, Viet Nam, Iraq Iran. In fact I grew up in WW11.
I mean what I say, religion has caused more war and suffering on this earth than any other human endeavour.

115

Richard Lionheart,

20/05/2007 20:58:12

Are these the same experts who have been advising and acting to reduce teenage pregnancy for the last 20 years?

The people demand that the new Executive sack the experts!

116

Richard Lionheart,

20/05/2007 20:58:43

any captions for the picture?

117

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 21:02:17

117

Sambo

Surely you mean you CANNOT provide the answers I sought.....because your statement was nonsense.

It's the sort of sound bite that satisfies growing intolerant seculars, but has no substance in fact.

118

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 21:03:48

Not heard from the Freethinker for a while.

Has his mammy sent him to bed?

119

Sambo,

The deep south 20/05/2007 21:22:29

Tuxedo Junction,
You have overwhelmed me with your logic, sorry I give in. Actually I have to log off. You win.
My nanny said I have been up to long.

120

Sambo,

The deep south 20/05/2007 21:25:04

However Tuxedo, I'm coming over to Scotland to straighten everythi'n oot next week.

121

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 21:30:28

122

Fair enough, Sambo.

I wasnt seeking a "win" - just seeking the truth.

Goodnight.

122

Tuxedo Junction,

20/05/2007 21:30:54

123

a big task indeed!

123

de bono,

20/05/2007 21:44:34

Tuxedo, (Pax) you are a bit aggressive, but you are right and Freethinker has simply run away.

S/he has no answers beyond resorting to empty common currency tabloid platitudes.

Freethinker is a dupe of chaotic moral disarray.

Atheism when institutionalised is hell on earth.

Our young people need to be given the freedom to be more than commodities - used by multinationals - dumbed down - give them condoms . . . .

124

Hezza,

20/05/2007 21:49:20

At last! A clinic to teach kids how to have more and better sex - what an excellent idea - they honestly spend too much time in useless lessons studying subjects that have no relevance to modern life, like maths, english and gcse fishmongery.

Well done personal and social education teaching hippies, ummkay, and what about spliff rolling classes? I was always SO embarassed that mine were shy-t.

125

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 22:12:29

Tuxedo Junction

I much prefer reasoned debate than low insults.

I provided my lengthy views on the sexual health article.

The debate moved on to religion and I argued - hopefully in a polite, sane and logical manner - about the absurdity of believing in the supernatural.

We differ about that - big deal.

You have not advanced a single piece of evidence to persuade me that your god exists or that I should follow him/her/it. I have mountains of arguments why we should turn our backs on religion but, frankly, I've got a life to lead and a pair of suit trousers to press.

Maybe you'd like to finish by telling us what your penalty would be for some poor unfortunate 15 year old girl who finds herself pregnant. Of course you want her prosecuted - how tolerant and sympathetic!

Your suggestion that the Catholic Church is not homophobic is laughable - I suggest that you speak to your priest or bishop.

Laters

126

Faye,

Scotland 20/05/2007 22:29:48

This is almost as ridiculous as Prince Andrew asking everyone in the world to pray or wear a yellow ribbon for a wee girl that's been abducted.

127

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 22:30:36

#126 de bono

You may express yourself in a slightly more intelligent manner than the raving Tuxedo but your arguments do not carry any greater intellectual weight.

If you can't accept that atheists have a moral compass and perhaps some sane and rational arguments for how we can all rub along, then you are as blinkered as your clearly brainwashed mate.

I never said that religion should be banned (I would protest against such an illiberal position) or that atheism should be institutionalised. It's rather cheeky of you to suggest that I did.

I strongly contend that many of the problems which exist on this overcrowded bit of rock (which, incidentally is at least 360 billion years old yet Christians are commanded to believe that it's only about 6000 years old - literally unbelievable!) could be resolved if religion did not have such a hold on so many minds.

Of to bed now - with my Richard Dawkins teddybear!

Byeeeeeee!

128

de bono,

20/05/2007 22:33:36

freethinker.

no answers at all

129

Freethinker,

Penicuik 20/05/2007 22:42:12

# 131

Yes - to the closed mind.

130

getinnnn,

Scotland 20/05/2007 22:59:58

Yes a load of homosexuals were planted within the Catholic Church......God demonstrated what He thought of the strange flesh matter with Sodom and Gomorrah

132

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21/05/2007 07:21:01
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,

21/05/2007 07:56:42
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21/05/2007 08:05:42
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21/05/2007 08:09:23
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siusaidh,

21/05/2007 08:59:11

*4
A lot of those special needs cases come from those, who are having fertility treatment, from mostly those, who waited until 'the time was right' to have kids.

137

jayceebee,

21/05/2007 09:22:26

yeah, the state should control everything being as it cannot do anything right yet

138

Freethinker,

21/05/2007 13:15:28

#135 - Chairman Gordon

I never quoted Dawkins - the teddybear reference was a JOKE. Are you so bereft of a sense of humour?

#136 - Em

How odd - a Catholic website trashing Dawkins' book and praising a theologian's rebuttal effort. Well I never!

I'd encourage everyone to read McGrath's "pamphlet". It's pretty poor stuff and provides no scientific or empirical evidence for god, angels, demons and all the other religious claptrap you folks seem to find necessary for your existence.

#143 - Glenn

Not a very thoughtful intervention. No one is forcing young adults to do anything. The fact remains, however, that many parents are either unable or unwilling to discuss issues surrounding sex and sexual health with their offspring. What is so wrong about properly-trained educators covering this aspect of life?

I'm sure that history teachers teach about the rise of Hitler in the expectation that their charges don't embark on world domnation!

If our kids are not made aware of the consequences - of which there can be many - of indulging in sexual activity at an early age then Scotland's depressing statistics on teenage pregnancies and soaring STDs will continue.

139

de bono,

21/05/2007 13:31:58

Freethinker - you demonstrate the obvious paradox of using liberal arguments to back up an illiberal stance.

You are sneering and insulting about people with religious beliefs.

Why don't you do a wee world tour and enlighten all the deluded billions of religious people across the globe?

Imagine how grateful they would be for your wisdom!

Secularism does not have the answers.

More focus on morals is good, not bad.

140

Elibet,

Texas 21/05/2007 14:42:48

What does God say about this situation? Woe to you who lead one of my little ones into sin. And, train up your children in the way they should go and when they are older they will not depart from it.
Parents and grandparents who fail to teach
their children self-respect and who fail to love them enough to say 'no.' should be held fully accountable for the total failure of their offspring. Scotland has long ago turned her back on the love of God. She has been fighting with herself over religious traditions (men's ideas of God) and sold her heritage to evil. She long ago became a hedonistic society and blindly wallowed in the muck and stench of it's aftermath. The results have only just started. She now is a nation of lost souls who have no idea of what they are or are supposed to be. Teams of uneducated youngsters are running the streets carrying knives and killing each other. People are being shot to death in the streets and here we have a brilliant professor with ministers backing 'demanding' better sex education and free birth control for 13 year olds! First, nothing is free. When a human joins their flesh together with another they become one person. And wither they believe it or not they are tied spiritually to that person forever. When they separate and go their own way there is a spiritual tearing that takes place and causes damage to the person's soul. This damage is far more dangerous than that of an std. Yes, STD's are damaging, but most can be treated. The damage to the soul can not. Without the love of God, those persons remain torn and broken and some never find any kind of healing. It is these who go on to continue the cycle. They pass on the curse of it to their offspring and so the chains grow longer. Oh, that God would shake Scotland and wake her from her apathy.
What mother discards her children to the fire just so she can have a bit of peace? Scotland! She has given the screaming weans everything they have demanded and thrown the

141

Freethinker,

21/05/2007 15:39:28

#146 - Elibet

And your diatribe - rich in Old Testament hate-terminolgy - is exactly why I hold the beliefs and values I do. Do you get off when you write such anachronistic drivel?

I could list a thousand examples of where "doing the Lord's work" leads to death, destruction and a denial of fundamental human rights.

# 145 de bono - you have brought nothing of substance to the debate.

Atheists such as myself don't slaughter our fellow human beings because we want them to be atheists. Followers of religions do - adopting the maxim "Believe in what we believe or we'll kill you in god's name."

And you know where the source of all the faith-inspired mayhem hails from? Your very own god (or Allah etc.) It's all there, in grisly detail, in the Old Testament.

And you seriously argue that following the Christian way is morally just. Do me a favour!

These days most Christians adopt a pick n mix approach to the teachings of the Bible - convieniently ignoring all the nasty stuff (of which there is plenty) in favour of the "love thy neighbour" side of things.

Perhaps in a few centuries time Islam will be where Christianity is now - until then the fundamentalists will continue to wreak havoc and misery - and glory in doing so in the name of allah.

142

Eleanor from Clane Irvine USA,

21/05/2007 16:32:48

I think it is up to the parents what the child need's to know, but as long as we till them no they are goingh to do it more and more with or with out being protected. As for the Morning After pill I think it is just like having an Abortion. Do we want our kids to have an abortion ( kill our Grandchildern) I dont but I do want me childern to what is going on with all the STD's going around there so between the Patents talking with there child will help. Pluse in the school's I think it will help a great deal. Not stop it, but will help the childern know what is what with sex.
Sex is not bad it is just miss-gauded most of the time and what we need to ask our-self's is when will we have this talk with our kids whene now or leater. It's up to you not the school's or Goverment to tell us what to do with our family life. You decide what is best for you and you'r child. You can email me at with the e pro's and con's to Lady_Scotland_Irvine_Familyusa@yahoo.com

143

de bono,

21/05/2007 19:01:15

FT, this article is about targetting sex education, condoms and morning after pills in schools where there are higher levels of teenage pregnancy and STDs. By doing this in England, these problems were reduced.

On a pragmatic level, there is some sense in this. Harm reduction is important.

However, doubtless the areas where these problems are highest will be areas with relatively low incomes.

It is emergency expedient public health thinking - not thinking based on what actually works for people at a deeper and more sustainable level - self-respect - respect for other people - seeing sex in context.

For this reason, my point has been that the deep moralities found in traditional values (many of which involve a theistic world-view) are valuable and should be promoted in schools (often coming from the wishes of parents who want faith to be acknowledged and explored in school - faith based schools are hugely over subscribed).

I'm trying to work out what your rant about fundamentalist violent religion has to do with this.

You also show either an ignorance of history or a very biased perspective when you say atheists have not been responsible for killing others.

By a long, long way atheistic institutions have exceeded the killings conducted by a few mad fundamentialists -In the 20th century, mass murder, genocide and inhumane practices mushroomed to a level that exceeded all of the crimes against humanity in known history many times over.

You know the list - Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin - millions upon millions of people butchered and tortured for atheistic ideologies.

Forced birth control in China.

What i am saying is that religious teaching on sexuality is valuable - it promotes more than the secular view of do what you like as long as you take care of the biological dangers.

I also think that the religious perspective values the family and resists the state taking on the parental role.

144

Tuxedo Junction,

21/05/2007 19:35:18

128

Thought Police

No, YOU moved the debate to religion - which was always your intent.

Your bigotry is stunning.

And STILL you havent told us what you're advocating.

And STILL you have not answered my questions.

STILL you find them too hard.

145

Elibet,

Texas 22/05/2007 02:56:13

Freethinker, Your gnashing of teeth is very
much New Testament. Why does it bother
you so much that others have their beliefs?
No one in this world is forcing you to do or
be anything. You have freedom. So why the
gnashing of teeth?
The point of my post is that these so called
health experts along with the inept parents
are throwing children into the fire of misery. Do they really believe that contraception is the answer to the longing
to be loved? That's what this all boils down to.
The need to be loved.

146

Freethinker,

Penicuik 22/05/2007 21:37:00

http://secularderby.org/atheistmyths.htm

de bono - you should really do your homework. Dictators are dictators - atheism has nothing to do with their evil deeds.

Back to the initial subject:-

Interestingly, I'm currently watching a programme on ITV called "Teenage Sex - Too Much To Soon". A sad litany of poorly educated girls with low self-esteem who lose their virginities at a ridiculously early ages (12) and who have children at 13/14.

If ever there was a need for proper education on the consequences of early teenage sex - and the need for appropriate sexual health services (on or off-campus) this programme highlighted it. Sadly, the answer of many religionists is "keep your legs closed and read the bible." Talk about burying one's head in the sand in the hope that it will go away!

147

Mop,

Scotland 22/05/2007 21:41:40

I dont really think this posting has anything to do with religion.

When I look around children are not children anymore,they look and sometimes act like miniature adults.

If any of you have taken a good look at what some children wear these days,its like adult clothes which are totally unsuitable for children cut down.
I think alot of youngsters clothing can be as provocative as adult clothing and I have been quite shocked at how much older some girls in particular can look.

I know one young girl who is 13 and to be honest with makeup etc she could pass for 18 easily.

I think there are all the issues I have mentioned above and EMOTIONAL issues that young people need to be educated about and I dont just mean handing out pills and condoms.
I also think they should be shown the consequences of stds and what its like to live with conditions like HIV.

Too many young people seem to be ignorant of how they GET pregnant or infected with an std.

148

Tuxedo Junction,

22/05/2007 22:32:34

154

So....what re YOU advocating, Thought Police?

149

de bono,

22/05/2007 23:02:51

Mop, good obsersations - need to protect people - short term and long term.

FT - sorry but you are not keeping up buddy - I;m glad you're not in charge.

Meditate a bit more. Will do you good.

150

Tuxedo Junction,

23/05/2007 08:03:43

157

Thought Police needs a Diversity course - quick!

151

Freethinker,

Penicuik 23/05/2007 12:50:30

Young adults need to be educated to help them understand that having sex at an early age can have massive consequences - both economic and social. There are also significant issues for society as a whole.

Frankly, the later our kids start a sexual-life the better as far as I'm concerned. I suspect we will all share that aspiration.

My own view - which of course you are free to differ with - is that discussions about sexual health matters should be conducted without reference to ancient texts and the involvement of self-appointed religious leaders. They most certainly don't speak for me and their influence on public policy should be nil.

But that's just my opinion.

Tux - you really should reflect on the things you say. If I could be bothered I could provide hundreds, if not thousands, of examples where religion denies basic human rights and freedom of thought and speech. As an ex-RC I am well aware of church history and practice. Other faiths are even worse.

De Bono - your general smarmy-ness does you no favours. You make some good points but you are a million miles off beam in your ridiculous notion that atheists advocate a free for all with no thought given as to the consequences. Perhaps we can discuss absolutism versus moral relativism in another thread.

I think this has been done to death here.

152

Elibet,

Texas 23/05/2007 13:35:53

Freethinker, Your gnashing of teeth when you speak of religion shows that you do not know God. You have never met Him and don't understand the first thing about Him. Yet, you constantly attack Him every chance you get. In almost every post of yours you keep coming back to hatred of God and anything you think has to do with Him. Surely you can't believe that everything that calls itself good is good! Sure you don't, you are smarter than that. So, it is simply convenient for you to assign blame for your anger on the religious folks and God. Cause He's the One who says what you are doing is wrong. So, even though you claim to be an atheist you do believe in God. How can you hate someOne that does not exist?
On the subject of being an atheist:
Why would you expect the human animal to behave other than as an animal? There is no higher call for an animal than to be an animal. There are no moral lines they can cross. Everything is open to them. So, why would you restrict their sexual relations until they are more mature? Your argument makes no sense at all. Except when it shows your gnashing of teeth toward anything Godly. Your anger speaks volumes. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
And by the way, Jesus Himself said, Not everyone who calls Me Lord is of Me. On that day I will say, Away from me, I never knew you." Try to remember that when you are tarring 'every' believer with that hate-filled brush glued to your hand.
I wish you peace.

153

Tuxedo Junction,

23/05/2007 13:47:21

159

More sniping from the Thought Police from behind the settee! This coward will not come out and debate like an adult because his case is so weak.

Come on out, Thought Police, and debate like an adult and I will wipe the floor with you, for your intolerance has no place in a civilised society in 2007.

You aint the first ex Catholic to turn nasty and intolerant - Adolf was much the same.

Stop the hatred, Thought Police.

154

Tuxedo Junction,

23/05/2007 13:50:54

159

Thought Police

the most revealing statement in your post 159 was:

"They most certainly don't speak for me and their influence on public policy should be nil."

Are your views more important than the views of others, Adolf? Others views should not be considered? Tolerated?

Shame shame shame on you, Adolf.

155

Freethinker,

The Berghoff (apparently) 23/05/2007 15:50:23

"They don't speak for me" - factually correct.

"Their influence on public policy should be nil." - My opinion which, I'm sure, you would permit me to hold?

Religious representatives have the same right as me and you to seek to influence the debate - except in many countries where you happen to be of the "wrong" faith. In such countries the "crime" for such freethought can be death. Want examples?

Off to polish my jackboots - presumably you're off to your Opus Dei meeting.

Luv ya!

156

de bono,

23/05/2007 15:50:58

FT - I think that its a bit much for Tux to call you Adolf.

Intolerant and disparaging about religion, yes.

Whether you hate God or not is not for anyone to say - but you do demonstrate a lot of disrespect for people who do believe in God.

Do you know better? I don't think so.

I don't have simplistic views on atheists - I was just countering the myth you tried to perpetuate about religion being the root of all the big wars and atrocities.

Faith is, and always will be, part of humanity - because we only become ourselves by transcending ourselves and acknowledge our dependence on each other and on our creator.

Sex education - consequences of irresponsible sex - yes. But the faith based point is not do what you want as long as you take precautions -the message is that sex should be part of a loving and committed relationship. Respect.

Of course, there is hypocrisy and way too much guilt in the Church, but that doesn't discredit the message.

157

Tuxedo Junction,

23/05/2007 16:55:01

163

Adolf

You rant and rave about intolerance - but repeatedly show YOUR intolerance.

We're ALL entitled to opinions.

ALL of them matter.

ALL of them should influence public policy.

You need a darned good DIVERSITY course, Adolf.

158

Catmommy,

Florida 23/05/2007 19:14:23

Man, ya want to see why a lack of clinics do not
work? Just look at what happens over here-"just say no " doesn't exactly work, now does it???

159

,

23/05/2007 21:05:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
160

,

23/05/2007 21:16:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:

 

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