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Files prove that MI5 spied on SNP

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Published Date: 16 September 2007
THE SNP was spied on by British secret service agents, previously classified Government files seen by Scotland on Sunday have finally proved.
Claims of surveillance of nationalist politicians by intelligence officers have circulated for years, but the new papers provide the first incontrovertible evidence that the state spied on the SNP in the 1950s.

Agents from MI5 and Special Branch infiltrated the party as part of a campaign to undermine support for Scottish independence, the papers show.

The revelations have put First Minister Alex Salmond - who in opposition complained about closed Government files on the SNP - under pressure to close a legal loophole that allows the secret services to intercept the calls of Scottish parliamentarians.

The files, which have been opened and placed in the UK National Archives in Kew, show that throughout the 1950s Special Branch officers posed as nationalist supporters and attended party meetings and rallies.

The dossiers contain first-hand accounts from numerous unnamed agents of party meetings, and also include names of SNP members and sympathisers. They also provided transcripts of speeches and give particular attention to members they believed were on the more radical and militant wing of the party.

The dozens of documents also contain the remarkable claim that Dr Robert McIntyre, the then SNP leader, wanted Scotland to pull out of the UK and apply to be the 49th state of the USA.

A number of present-day MSPs, including former SNP leadership contender Alex Neil, claim MI5 still monitors pro-independence politicians and may even have stepped up surveillance since the Nationalists won power in May.

So far the new SNP administration has rejected calls to extend the "Wilson Doctrine" - which bans the secret services from tapping the phones of MPs - to Holyrood.

Alex Neil, deputy convener of Holyrood's European and External Relations Committee, said: "It does not surprise me in the least to have it confirmed that the UK Government has used dirty tricks against the SNP in the past.

"I would certainly not discount the idea that the British state is still acting to undermine the SNP, especially given the substantial progress it has made recently.

"We need to get clear assurances from Westminster that nothing is being done to undermine the democratic wishes of the Scottish people."

Margo MacDonald, the independent nationalist MSP and former SNP deputy leader, added: "Scotland is strategically important and energy rich, and I think it would be extraordinary if the security services weren't taking a close interest in recent developments in Scotland.

"

Fellow SNP member Christine Grahame, convener of Holyrood's Health and Sport Committee, is disappointed that Justice Minister Kenny MacAskill has so far rejected her calls to outlaw the monitoring of MSPs' phone calls.

MacAskill said: "The Scottish Government has no plans to seek to extend the Wilson Doctrine to cover MSPs, nor to introduce a convention to prevent police Special Branches carrying out covert surveillance in circumstances that meet the strict tests of necessity required by law."

A spokesman for the Home Office, which deals with UK intelligence services, said: "We neither confirm nor deny operational matters."

A Scottish Government spokesman confirmed that the First Minister has the power to sign warrants to bug telephones in Scotland.

Files open on curious case of spooks, SNP and Idi Amin


THE SETTING was Hyde Park in the centre of London. The speaker was a young and charismatic politician who had broken the mould.

The crowd was mainly made up of his supporters who gathered to hear his views on self-rule, daring raids on the establishment and possible alliance with a foreign power.

Except for one. He was the "spook" from MI5 and he duly delivered his report on the enemy within - the Scottish National Party - to his political masters in Whitehall.

Scotland on Sunday can reveal today for the first time the official papers that prove that MI5 and Special Branch spied on the SNP during the 1950s because of fears over independence.

According to the documents lodged at the National Archives in Kew, government agents routinely attended party meetings to compile lists of SNP members and where they lived, focusing on the more militant individuals. They also provided detailed transcripts of speeches.

The files show that in April, 1951, a government agent attended the party gathering in Hyde Park to keep a close eye on party leader Robert McIntyre, who had made history by becoming the first SNP MP after winning a by-election in Motherwell six years earlier.

A detailed report on his remarks and conduct states: "Dr McIntyre said the party was a constitutional one, but as such it had been ignored by the English. It was only when unconstitutional methods, such as the removal of the Stone of Destiny from Westminster Abbey [in 1950], were used that this country become aware of Scotland's wish for self-rule.

"He thought that Scotland would in fact be better off as the 49th state of the United States, both from an economic and defence aspect."

This revelation is at odds with the SNP's stance as a predominantly left-of-centre party, which remained suspicious of the US brand of unfettered free-market capitalism. The files include detailed reports of a meeting held by the London branch of the SNP in Conway Hall, Holborn, on May 31, 1954.

It states: "Attached is a list of the present paid-up members of the Scottish National Party, a list of members from 1953 and a list of names and addresses taken from a 'contact book', which includes the names of people who have expressed their sympathy with the Party at meetings and rallies."

Another Special Branch member filed a report on an SNP rally that took place in Trafalgar Square on April 19, 1953.

It lists those who attended, including McIntyre, who died in 1998, and states: "All of the speeches were moderate in tone and no references were made to Coronation, but, as I have detailed, two of the speakers did briefly comment on the title of HM the Queen."

The files record that SNP members eventually became suspicious of government infiltration and proposed that all new members be vouched for by a regular member. The Special Branch agent recorded: "This was on the grounds that a Mr Douglas, who was well versed in politics and spoke well, was regarded as a police spy."

SNP elder statesman said they were "shocked" their suspicions had finally been confirmed.

William Wolfe, who joined the SNP in the late 1950s and led the party between 1969 and 1979, said: "We always suspected that the party was being infiltrated by government agents, but it is still shocking to have that suspicion finally confirmed.

"I remember one individual in particular who claimed he had spent many years in America before joining the party.

"Something about him just didn't add up and we all suspected he was some sort of government informer. A lot of us used to joke about having moles in our midst, but it now appears that it was no laughing matter."

Wolfe added: "It is quite, quite wrong for a legitimate and democratic party to be put under surveillance in this way. I have absolutely no doubt that the UK Government will have several files on me, but I have nothing to hide."

Wolfe, 83, insists he was put under surveillance by M15 as late as the 1970s after he received a bizarre telex from the Ugandan dictator Idi Amin offering support for Scottish independence.

"It was a very strange incident, but I had it confirmed from the police that it led to my phone being tapped."

Security experts said the Home Office would have considered the SNP a legitimate target for surveillance.

Terrorism expert Paul Wilkinson, professor of international relations at St Andrews University, said: "This was the era when the taking of the Stone of Destiny from Westminster Abbey had become a huge national issue. I'm sure there was concern in Westminster and Whitehall that there was a more militant wing within supporters of Scottish independence which posed a threat of illegal actions and it is the job of MI5 to monitor potential dangers of that kind."

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Senga Jean,

Scotland 16/09/2007 00:27:18

AND THEY STILL ARE!

2

Conan the Librarian,

Cimmeria's smallest council estate. 16/09/2007 00:35:12

Aye.Right.
Taking the Stone was a National security failure for Mi5.
Public schoolboys thinking that they ARE Government...
Cameron or Boris.Eton.Blair was Fettes.

3

Winged Messenger,

16/09/2007 00:40:25

People, like AM2 and all his accompanying rot, have questioned the validity of claims by pro-independence people, like me, about "conspiracy theories" regarding how Scotland has been oppressed and controlled through a variety of dispicable means which we, the people of Scotland, have to wake up to.

This story confirms those claims to be true.

Feast on this, unionists, and contemplate as to whether these words, written by Burns two hundred and god knows what years ago, are not more applicable today than they ever have been.

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=Js7x3u2GHYs

4

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/09/2007 00:42:59

It can be dirty as hell, but anything is OK to undermine the SNP is the message here.

This is a national disgrace, security services who we pay for are spying on our politicians.

Quislings - thank god you that you were born Scottish and that we are a tolerant people. Consider what your fate would be if you had been born in most other countries.

This one is worth 2 or 3 percentage points.

5

Senga Jean,

Scotland 16/09/2007 00:46:05

The next question to ask is what instructions on Britttishness was given to the BBC and what elbows were twisted on great British institutions to be in yer face British. Freedom of Information will seek out the distorters of our sacred democracy. We know who these distorters are and we will find yyyyyyyyoooooouggggh. ( I leave my heart to my beloved Scotland...may it be openly displayed at the Mercat Cross Edinburgh on each galfundy day forever...this is my last will.)

6

I'm no really here,

16/09/2007 00:47:42

Is this news? Of course they were. This is a radical group wanting to upset the vested interests of well-healed individuals who are part of the establishment.

What are the chances that they still are being spied upon. It is a Labour Government, hell-bent on protecting your Civil Liberty to vote Labour, and they will infringe in the Civil Liberty of ANYONE who doesn't agree with them, take their DNA and give them a compulsory ID Card - all in the name of Civil Liberty.

7

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 16/09/2007 00:48:33

I have a feeling that Unionists are going to be notable by their absence on this board today

8

The Daleks,

16/09/2007 00:52:25

The organs of British State Security spy on the populace.

Away!!

9

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 01:01:37

It seems its been going on for a long time, with no let up.

Story of Christine Grahame MSP and her tapped phone calls , http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4752537.stm
.. notably in the same period of time the local council in the Borders run mostly by the LibDems, were trying to hide a £4million pound budget fraud, amongst other things ...

10

Jock MacSprog,

16/09/2007 01:25:42

if there is a group of numpties who want to secede from the UK, nationalise and seize UK property and are consorting with a criminal the likes of Idi Amin, then I sure hope MI5 would be watching them

11

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 01:27:14

#10. karinm

I think what might be more frightening to people would be a list of Scottish institutions which have probably used or have been privy to information from the security services MI5 or Special Branch against those in Scotland that don't see eye to eye with them.

I'm sure there are some now in Government who know exactly what I'm talking about after reading the above. Maybe time for them to let the cat out of the bag so we all know ?

12

Gnasher,

16/09/2007 01:29:55

It's very spooky that the SNP was monitored by the Security Service. The agents of the state apparently went to meetings, and noted who was there and what they said, and in due course these notes have been made public. Now a Scottish government would never monitor political activists. Of course not. It would never happen.

13

Wisnaeme,

16/09/2007 01:35:54

.
Anything I comment on might be taken down, recorded,misconstrued and used in evidence against me.
.

14

Willie Macleod,

Wick 16/09/2007 01:43:17

The SNP are not alone MI5 have files on people and organisations such as CND as well as as past and present members of the Labour government The whole Labour Movement was regarded as a threat .

15

Wisnaeme,

16/09/2007 01:45:02

.
Post 14. Peter Cherbi.

Now thats terrible Speculative Debating on Society.

Did ye say yer in Embra then, Peter?
.

16

Suck McCrunchie (the eighth),

Doomster Hill 16/09/2007 01:59:35

If MI5 was watching anyone that far back I am sure there is a Russian number you can call to get the details.

I always thought it pretty funny the dialing code for Russia is '007'.

17

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 16/09/2007 02:11:47

Ach they're at it more than ever no doubt. Ye know war on terror and all that. Would be surprised if they were not behind the Tommy Sheridan mularky at some level. Problem now is that the "enemy" of the state is part of the state - worries about treason guys? We're coming to get ye..

18

C.U. Jimmy,

Sssssh! You know where. 16/09/2007 02:22:10

Folks, it's too late. The spooks have already infiltrated this board. Look around. Many of these postings have got their fingerprints all over them.

In fact, I even think they made up this one.

19

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 02:31:43

#21. Wisnaeme

Yes, the east end might do ...

#18. karinm

Yes, quite right on that one. Good to see someone in Westminster may be spilling the beans on whats been going on .. actually there are a few who do talk from time to time and let things out ...

Perhaps if Scotland is being undermined by the very forces charged to protect it, there will have to be .. independence ?

20

Name,

16/09/2007 02:36:38

Boohoo! Have a moan.

21

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 16/09/2007 03:09:48

Cheers the "benthehoose" I haven't heard that phrase in years.

Keep up the good work. There really is no stopping the slow march to independence, and a these forums are a great help.

All the best.

22

Conan,

Here 16/09/2007 03:15:43

The English overlords are still spying on the Scots - this is news?

23

Royster,

16/09/2007 03:18:45

Of course MI5 is spying on any domestic entity whose aim it is to destroy the country. It's a given. They used to spy on Sinn Fein so why not the SNP?

24

The Fly Fifer,

fife 16/09/2007 03:19:37

so what if they did???!! they watch who they think need watching, the only files I want to see released earlier are the unprecedented 100 year lock down of the Dumblane Massacre now these will truly be well worth reading ......

25

Guga II,

Rockall 16/09/2007 03:39:35

It has been well known, for years, that both MI5 and Special Branch were spying on the SNP, just as they were spying on certain left wing members of the Labour Party (yes children, once upon a time, Labour actually had members with left wing inclinations).

This spying was, of course, done on behalf of the English establishment and their representatives, the Tories. Though no doubt the current surveillence of the SNP is also done on behalf of Maggie Broon and his New Labour Numpty Party.

You will note that I said "current", as we'd all have to be living in cloud cuckoo land if we thought that it was not still happening.

I have no doubt either, that many, if not all, of the pro-independence supporters on these and similar fora are also being monitored by MI5 and Special Branch, with a little help from GCHQ. They are monitoring fixed and mobile phones, e-mail and internet activities, and much, much more.

This is the "union dividend" for you, the establishment unionist parties feel they have the right to spy on the democratic activities of anyone who dissents from their view. The British Raj is alive and well, and still trying to control the colonials.

Saor Alba.

26

Alan Reid,

New Zealand 16/09/2007 04:09:33

It's like what Kissinger said 'Oil is to important to be left in the hands of the Sweaties'
Thats a fact I read it in the Daily Record, it woild never lie.

27

2000 Staples for 99p,

16/09/2007 04:23:24

MI5 started spying in the 50s. Oill was discovered in teh North Sea in the 70s and the SNP conclusiion on here is that they were spying for the oil and financial reasons.

God the SNP are thick. Can't even read a simple story and draw a logical conclusion from the facts.

MI5s mission statemement is to protect the United Kingdom and the SNP want to destroy the Unitek Kingdom, of course they tak an interest.

28

donald a,

weegieland 16/09/2007 04:59:37

Not even the tip of the iceberg.

Everything from controlling the Tame Unions to running the Brit left groups and to murder in Scotland and Ireland.

29

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 05:30:07

32 Royster

What country are you referring to?

30

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 05:44:11

The self important SNP support is out in strength today.
How would the Westminster government know that the SNP was a democratic organisation unless it had maintained some kind of watching brief?
The article above says that Alec Salmond has the authority to order telephone taps in Scotland, how often has he used that authority under one pretext or another?
As it is the Westminster government should continue to watch the activities of the SNP and some of it's support as their totalitarian tendencies are showing.

31

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 16/09/2007 05:51:12

Royster and Jock MacSprog

How dare you both suggest that OUR intellignece services have the right to spy on our democratically elected politicians

Spying on politicians who have ,unlike Sin Fein, always advocated the ballot box not the bullet. To try to draw some sort of security concern from the activities of the SNP is despicable.

For Unionist politicians to use this resource in this way is a gross breach of trust. The message this gives us is very poor - it's OK for Unionists to deal in the dark and mirky.

A direct equivalent would be Nationalist death squads chapping on the door of Royster and MacSprog's in the middle of the night - would this be OK and acceptable?

Scotland will win her independence, we know that other parties will fight this tooth and nail, we are able and willing to fight. We demand an even playing field or you really are advocating that we bring our tactics in line with yours - a plunge into the dark and mirky.

Would you not find it utterly repugnant to have a chap on the door in the middle of the night boys?

Thank you lucky semi-treacherous arse5 that we will achieve our aims only through the ballot box

32

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 16/09/2007 05:53:46

Pete from Paisley marvellously displays the lies propogated by the unionists.

Show me one totalitarian post on this blog Pete.

33

Boy Wonder,

16/09/2007 05:54:59

Unfortunately, I doubt any politician ... even Alex ... will get rid of a "legal loophole" they can exploit for themselves. It's just too useful to have around. But, we'll see, shall we?

34

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 05:56:15

#3 Winged Messenger. Well said. But I think we will wait a while before AM2 and other unionists have the grace to admit that this, along with deliberate lies by Whitehall about Scotland's economic potential, unmasks the the squalid, anti-democratic nature of British unionist government.

To carry forward your Burns reference, he also wrote:
"Alas, I have often said to myself what are the boasted advantages which my country reaps from a certain Union that counterbalance the annihilation of her Independence, and even her name !" and even free participation in democratic politics without interference and monitoring by the secret police it seems now?

Behold, the squalid, undignified face of unionism at #38 - who cannot even criticise the involvement of the secret services in democrtaic politics within Scotland.

35

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 05:57:56

40 - Pete from Paisley couldn't find his napper with both hands in broad daylight, so we shouldn't expect him to find any concept of democracy, freedom or civil liberties.

36

Boy Wonder,

16/09/2007 05:59:43

Here's a thought ... once we acheive Independence, we'll need our own spy network ... so what should we call it? Obviously something in Gaelic (which I don't speak) ... but in Scots too!

SRU. .... Spies R Us??
RSO. .... Ra Sneaky Oaffice??
DoC ... Department o Clipes??

I dunno ... I probably need to go to bed! :)

37

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 06:02:05

38 Pete fae Paisley.

So its Ok for the political party in Government to use the national apparatus available to them to undermine their political rivals is that the kind of democracy you support?
Would it be ok then for the present Government to spy on the Tories in order to get an edge for the next General election?

38

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 06:03:49

Dougie Douglas # 40

Just like you to attempt to muddy the waters Dougie. Have you forgotten Salmond's attempts to control the broadcast media in Scotland, or MacAskill's to control the appointment of Chief Police Officers and his now stated intention to change the Criminal Law? I would not be surprised to be told that the criminal records of all SNP members had been deleted sometime between mid-May 2007 and now.
How many phone taps would you estimate that Salmond has authorised, or does that not matter?

39

langtonian,

scotus 16/09/2007 06:04:51

The only surprise is the number of posters who are surprised by the information in the article.

They have been /still are either very trusting/naive not to be aware that all communications were upgradeable when satellite communications became de-riguer ,how many years ago?.

Did it never occur to them that organisations such as the IRA. disappeared from the political scene ,not for any humanistic gesture on their part,the catalyst for their down fall was they found themselves living in a goldfish bowl where every murderous move and action was traceable and removable.

When NASA initiated the Hubble Space Telescope(HST) as long ago as 1977 a major world wide/space project that was and still is the "sea change"in our minuscule planet's communication infiltration capability, since that time scale is now 30years on it is hardly new technology /rocket science.

Politically that suggests to me that survival, in an international rat race of alliances and good neighbourliness's countries do not divide and rule, they conjoin.

The U/K, for 300 years has functioned better than any other comparable universal system, it would be in my opinion, a grave error of judgement to renege from a well tried flexible and proven political system.

"If it aint broke don't fix it" is an applicable comment.

The SNP are SEPERATIST party, that they are entitled to all that entailsis tantamount, in my opinion to "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"

Communication wise, they feed on historically flawed mythical illusion's, a safe haven to hide in, this increasingly fragmented, illuussionary world our small planet "birrel's" around in under HUBBLE's all seeing /hearing capabilliy.

40

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 06:10:07

Ayrshire Scot # 43

You have no idea what I am capable of.
On the otherhand you are only capable of the Salmond type, snide aside and re-statement of SNP propaganda.

honest, jock # 45

All political parties spy on one another, only a naive person would think otherwise. The Israelis spy on the US, the US spy on us and vice versa, McLaren spys on Ferrari...
How has the government used the national apparatus available to undermine political rivals? You watch to many conspiracy dramas.

41

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:13:22

46 - Pete, given your purile ravings I doubt anyone would trust you with the TV remote control, let alone a phone. However, in the unlikely circumstance that you get your greasy mits on a phone, I for one would support your right, despite your lunatic and extreme political opinions which slither close to fascism, to use said phone without MI5 listening in. You are probably sitting there typing with a wee bunnett made out of tin foil on, to stop aliens reading your thoughts (a brief read, granted) but I urge you to turn your attention to matters of civil liberty and political freedom more pressing.

42

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:15:15

48 - Pete, given your disregard for the most basic tenets of democracy and civil liberties, I doubt that your capabilities extend as far as being able to fart and chew gum simultaneously,

43

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 06:23:58

AyrshireScot # 49

Oh yes, I forgot your facility with cliches. You clearly have no understanding of politics, except of the very far right Northern Irish, Loyalist brand.
I doubt you can deduce my political opinions from anything I have written, you on the other hand want to close down any opinion that is at odds with yours; now that, is fascist. The beating heart of Scottish fascism is alive and thrives in Ayrshire.
What civil liberty and freedom is pressing, you poor oppressed soul.

44

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:29:11

51 Pete, you cognitively disfunctional, phone tapping and spy supporting fiend, I have no idea what you are on about re. my invented loyalist associations in the occupied six counties of the north of Ireland.

You probably can't deduce anything of my politics from what I write either.

I support your right to form your ludicrous views, and your right to propagate them electronically without interference. In that, and I hope in many other ways, I differ from you.

45

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 06:29:28

AyrshireScot # 50

Your readiness to indulge in gratuitous insults demonstrates your inadequacy for all to see. What happened, your boyfriend blow you out last night or did he just decide that you are inadequate too?

The British government is correct to monitor the activities of right wing extremists, like you, and political parties that demonstrate intolerant tendencies.

46

2000 Staples for 99p,

16/09/2007 06:30:54

#51 Well said Pete.

Tho I do think it's cute that ayrshite scot finds a little time each day to humiliate himself on the interweb.

The SNP supporters are hilarious as usual. Comparing MI5 peacefully checking on a seperatist hobby club with a death squad.

Are these guys for real? No-one can be thick enough to believe there is any foul play here.

47

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:33:12

53 - Pete, my insults are not gratuitous. They are deliberate and intended, as far as you and your intemperate rantings about terrorists in Ayrshire, your fictions about others being loyalist terrorist supporters, your thinly veiled sectarianism and homophobia are concerned.

Now deal with the subject at hand - the use by the UK government of secret services to monitor and infiltrate a democratic party it disagreed with.

48

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 06:33:53

AyrshireScot # 52

You do not have liberal tendencies; you and I have nothing in common. You have arrogantly attempted to hijack this column by detracting from the subject and decending into your usual litany of boring insults. Go back to the pub and take up where you left off, or sober up and stick to the point.

49

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:35:13

54 - AM2/ other unionist (and rather styeless) troll - be away with you, unless you can bring some style and originality to your usual, predictable and very old unionist trolling mince.

50

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:38:56

56 - Pete, I am gutted. You break the news of our political estrangement so suddenly. I had nurtured hopes that you would see the error of your ways, and denounce illiberal interference in civil democracy by the secret services, and that you and I would then share a starting point for a passionate meeting of political principles.

Sadly your just the same wee unionist illiberal troglodyte you always were.

51

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 06:39:22

AyrshireScot # 55

You are a bottle merchant, typical of your kind, when the bully boy tactics fail, withdraw. You are the one who decided to start the slanging match. The column above is not of interest to you, you are just detemined to demonstrate to the world that you are an empty vessel.

Do you think a government is not entitled to defend it's own interests and is not entitled to decide where it's interests lie or how they should be defended?Quaint!

52

Riley Hamish,

EDINA 16/09/2007 06:40:17

#47 LANGTONIAN
Total cobblers mate.
If all this technology is so good, then where is Bin Laden?....aye, or even Shergar for that matter.............and as for your Hubble telescope references........I reckon you're out of this world yourself !!

53

2000 Staples for 99p,

16/09/2007 06:41:34

What is all the fuss about?

Tesco probably have more intimate knowledge of these on file with the club card scheme.

The SNP could potentially take advantage of the thick vote in Scotland and use it to damage/scar the United Kingdom and Scotland for generations to come.

I feel a little bit safer at least knowing that MI5 only popped their heads round the door to check this separatist hobby club was only full of the type of idiots we have all come to know and love over the years.

54

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:44:44

59 - Pete, no, governments in democracies are not and should not be allowed to use the apparatus of the state against peaceful and law abiding democratic parties they don't happen to agree with. Given the appauling blunder re. WMD in Iraq and the vale of destruction the UK has helped drag that country into, clearly the UK does not have alot of spare secret service capability - if only to avoid further international catastrophe it should use its secret service for something more useful.

Perhaps you have heard of Watergate? And surely, living in Paisley, you are familiar with the dead-hand and stalinist tendencies of Labour's tin-pot dictatorial attitude in local government? I am for civil liberties and open government. You are lost in your own rantings.

55

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:46:31

61 - Bit early in the day for mince isn't it, troll?

56

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 06:46:55

AyrshireScot # 58

You don't get it, do you? Sticks and stones do nothing to enhance your argument that you are liberal and I am not.

What do you suggest, that the UK government dispense with the services of MI5 and MI6 so that enemies internal and external can walk all over us?
How can any government know who it's enemies are if it does not have surveillance?

57

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 06:54:13

AyrshireScot # 62

You demolish your own argument by mentioning Watergate. Conspiracies have a way of coming to light and destroying those that initiate them and attempt to conceal them.
By monitoring the SNP in the 1950s the UK government was not conspiring against the SNP, but monitoring their direction of travel, in the same way the government is monitoring the UK Mosques now. Monitoring is not the same as undermining, I don't think the article above suggest that the government was attempting to undermine the SNP; that is a construction developed my SNP party activists.

58

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 06:56:14

AyrshireScot

Are you this board's self appointed moderator? You seem to post a lot attacking other posters, being snidy or calling them trolls.

Is it possible you could stop doing that, it is a waste of time having to read what you say as it rarely adresses the point of the article.

59

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:56:50

64 - Pete. I was only having a little bit of fun at your expense (a very little bit) in a friendly jocular manner. Sit back and crack a smile. In all seriousness, I think governments should not use infiltration and surveillance against political parties they disagree with. This is a step toward authoritarianism and is anti-democratic. Looking at Iraq the UK clearly doesn't have top quality or abundant spies in any case.

60

,

16/09/2007 06:57:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 968779, Article id was mapped to record!
61

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 06:58:13

For what it's worth, I think MI5 were right to monitoe the SNP in the early days. Nationalism can be a very dangerous thing and can corrupt you people's minds if they are indoctrinated at a young age with pseudo-history and hate.

62

Road to the isles,

In the back room with headphones on. 16/09/2007 06:59:22

Why are you all surprised? This isn't news - it's been known for ages. Also the SNP isn't the only party to receive this treatment. All politicians are worth the watching anyway!

63

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 06:59:39

69 - is it too much to hope that Billy goat gruff will stick the heid on you?

64

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 07:01:50

Mind you, I am beginning to think I have been knobbled by MI5 - am I paranoid or are the trolls talking to themselves on here?

65

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 07:04:18

#72

I think there is noone debating because you have ruined what might have been an interesting debate.

All your small minded petulance is such a bore, should you not be off on the Sun website where you obvious limited knowledge would not let you down.

66

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 07:04:55

73 - quack.

67

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 07:05:32

AyrshireScot # 67

I knew that, that is why I responded in the same jocular vein.
The problem with Iraq is not too many spies, but too few. The US and UK governments listened to Iraqi regime opponents in conjunction with Israeli spies, who used the fear of WMDs to mobilise the US after 911. The same tactic is being used against Iran now. If we looked more like Iranians we could put our own spies in, but we don't, so we have to trust "allies" such as Israel who have their own axe to grind there.

68

mona,

16/09/2007 07:07:29

7. sorry too burst your bubble, guess I'm one of the few,but hey here goes, MI5 spied on a lot of organisations and still do It's called "rather be safe than sorry" If there's nothing too hide what's the problem!

69

James,

Dundee 16/09/2007 07:08:00

AM2 off, it's Pete today as the board's agent provocateur.

Brillo pad junior.

70

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 07:10:34

75 - Pete, exactly, the UK obviously doesn't have spies to spare to use them infiltrating democratic parties in the UK. Watergate is similar - the UK government services have been found out in this case, as they were in the US.
I do not construct a theory of government undermining of the SNP - clearly a UK government antithetically opposed to the SNP would use any information gathered to further the cause of the Union, in the same way that deliberate disinformation and lies were used in the 1970s re oil and Scotlands economy.

If you see a pompous, patronising duck (possibley one of those toilet ducks) tell it to get a sense of humour.

71

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 07:12:50

Is it coincidence that this site's barmiest, most obvious (and least styleish) trolls - such as Mona, Staple-thing and the Toilet Duck all materialise at once? And why do they all have AM2's sterile, patronising pedantry about them?

72

mona,

16/09/2007 07:15:06

79. must be your lucky day!!!!

73

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 07:21:19

13 - Jock McTroll - did the UK government and MI6 not help install Idi Amin? And did they not cavort with the likes of Saddam Hussein, General Pinochet and commanders loyal to Pol Pot? Honestly, if you are going to troll, do get a modicum of accuracy and originality into it.

74

mona,

16/09/2007 07:22:06

Ayrshire thingbob, stop being so bitter and darn well rude,we all have our different opinions,lighten up and stop being a grumpy git!

75

James,

Dundee 16/09/2007 07:22:09

As well as tapping and bugging high profile individuals, files are kept on activists - photos taken on marches, notes of car registrations etc.

Not covered by data protection or FOI, as the files are 'hard copy' only - not electronicllay stored.

Infiltration of groups such as Trades Unions and Political Parties is commonplace by the Establishment.

I would be 'upset' if they wernt monitoring Nationalists.

That means we are being taken seriously.

No matter, Independence is inevitable.

76

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 07:22:18

#79 AyrshireScot

You and your alter ego, honest jock, are nothing more than irritating, intellectually challenged and paranoid drones. Away and take your medication.

77

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 07:23:24

#79

Ayrhead. Empty vessels make the most noise.

This would be an otherwise interesting subject for discussion if you would stop your attention seeking.

78

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 07:23:45

82 - Mona, dear sweet thing. I was jesting. Billy Goat Gruff is not real. He won't really sink the heid in trolls like you.

79

AyrshireScot,

16/09/2007 07:26:58

85 - did you have to log out and log in again to change names, or were you just on the loo there? No worries, must be off. I suspect you will have some pressing re-pasting of links you have already used 50 times to be getting on with. Will look forward to your repetitive, styleless posts, tinged with your child-like need to be 'seen' to be right later on. Have a good one.

80

mona,

16/09/2007 07:27:05

81. yes they did,'cause it suited their purpose at the time,but like everything else in life things change!

81

eric,

16/09/2007 07:37:13

What about the Nationalist that was found dead in his car in the Highlands many years ago!

82

mona,

16/09/2007 07:56:18

89. well that brought total silence too the thread!

83

Tim (Blairgowrie),

16/09/2007 08:04:11

#89 eric

William McRae. Yes the same thing had occurred to me, but it's an easy conclusion to jump to and not necessarily true.

Well this thread has quickly become a feeding ground for the armchair warriors.

My initial opinion of suspicions being confirmed was shock. Then as I made my first coffee of the morning I realised that, assuming their intentions and actions were honourable I have no complaint about the surveillance. If information were misused, surveillance continued longer than were necessary, or both - then I'd be ready to complain. As it is though I cannot see any evidence of such. There can surely be little doubt that BNP are currently under surveillance and I'm glad for that, for if a party (BNP or any other) were voted in and some sort of regime begun I'd be more than a little bemused that the services we all pay towards had proven themselves ineffective.

84

eric,

16/09/2007 08:07:56

True ,Things like this happens every now and agian even though we have no proof .Look at diana .She got too close to the bone,

85

english nabob,

16/09/2007 08:08:13

"We need to get clear assurances from Westminster that nothing is being done to undermine the democratic wishes of the Scottish people."
Alex Neil


Quiet right as the S.N.P are in a minority. The majority pro-union Scots need to be assured they are not being 'Subverted' by any extreme 'Nationalists'.
Who have no mandate to 'Destroy' the United Kingdom.

86

Mikey,

16/09/2007 08:11:11

It's interesting to note the BritNats that advocate breaking the law. I'd always thought of the BritNats on these pages as London poodles, but now they seem to be criminal London poodles. In an independent Scotland, we should maybe treat them as they wish to treat us, i.e.guilty until proved innocent!

Just goes to show what utter fascists the BritNats are.

87

eric,

16/09/2007 08:16:44

Im no nationalist ,But London Gvts have Destroyed the so called UK By take take take me me me ,The Scots unionists have done more damage to Scotlands image in UK.They come across a beggers pleading with London to be the kept man !

88

Gnasher,

16/09/2007 08:16:59

Donald a, #36 - I think you are probably aware that within the nationalist and separatist rainbow there were some who were quite prepared to use violence to further their agenda.

The security service would have been irresponsible not to infiltrate and monitor these extremist groups, and it would need to be aware what was happening in mainstream nationalism to do so. That is an entirely legitimate thing for the security service in a democratic society to do, and as someone observed above, we should all hope they continue to do it in some of the political parties operating today.

None of this is to suggest that the vast majority of nationalists were involved in such things. It was always a small minority. But many active SNP members of a certain vintage are likely to know exactly what I'm talking about.

Violent Scottish nationalism in recent years has been characterised by its incompetence, but was that just our good luck, or was it the exercise of a "hidden hand?"

Either way, nobody got killed, and most of those involved kept their liberty. This will have caused some inconvenience to a few folk, but still - it sounds like a result to me.

89

mona,

16/09/2007 08:17:12

94 quite right, until the majority of scots vote too leave the union,no political party should tamper with it.

90

morris,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 08:21:29

A number of SNP and CND activists have had reason to suppose their phones have been tapped.They have often heard clicking at the relative beginning and end of their phone calls ,when no such phenomenon exists on other phones. Is this just imagination? Possibly,but Ive heard this in conversation a few times now,and that gives cause for concern.

Where there is a cause for national security being monitored of course we accept that, but someone like William Wolfe who openly advocated Scottish Independence ,and upheld freedom, hardly constitutes a threat. By the same logic we should tap Westminster ministers phones because they are a threat to Scotland's freedom !
If you don't agree with that then you have no right to agree with its reciprocal !

He who spys on a man desiring of freedom knows not what freedom is!

91

Paul Voltaire,

16/09/2007 08:25:45

Love it !
The SNP chatting with the self-proclaimed 'King' of Scotland.
You couldn't make it up.

92

MGW,

Glasgow 16/09/2007 08:26:05

I suppose you've gotta laugh - either intelligence groups are 'running interference' in this fight thread, or they've worked out we'll just argue ourselves into inactivity - and I reckon you could point to that Scottish flaw through several centuries of history...

BUT... Check this out, from the article:

"The revelations have put First Minister Alex Salmond - who in opposition complained about closed Government files on the SNP - under pressure to close a legal loophole that allows the secret services to intercept the calls of Scottish parliamentarians."

The Scotsman/SoS are telling us: "The SNP were spied upon, and it's an embarrassing scandal for the SNP."

Can we just think about that before we sink in the mud we're all throwing?

SOMEONE's stupid round here...

93

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 08:26:46

#97 Gnasher

Good point. We should remember that in the 50s adn 60s when this first started happening there were direct action group associated with the SNP.

The SNP supporters forget that because it is inconvenient to admit how violence and thuggery was once not so far removed from the nationalism and hate agenda of the separatist movement.

94

Dickie Bird,

inaweeglasgaebothy 16/09/2007 08:32:35

DIVIDE AND CONQUER!!!
Everyone is at each other's throats. . .em, armchair!

Nothing new,everyone is spying on everyone else and James Bond really exists!

SNP is in power therefore expect everything. They know the size of yer knickers and a bit more.

95

mona,

16/09/2007 08:32:52

99, He who spys on a man desiring freedom, hath reason too do so,as freedom should not be used too cause distress too others!

96

Gnasher,

16/09/2007 08:40:01

Dayglo Duck #102 - And beyond! Some of those apparently involved now enjoy privileged positions in the establishment. My point is that they seem to have come through their infantile militancy unscathed, as has nearly everyone else, which is a Good Thing.

The SNP of the present decade shouldn't complain too much, and of course most of them are keeping quiet about it. Which is fair enough.

97

I'm no really here,

16/09/2007 08:41:11

I'm amazed at the people who think that it is right and proper, not only for this surveillance to have taken place, but that it continues, and that it is the Westminster Government who decides what is "right and proper". Now do you understand why I am so against the DNA Database and the ID Card system. Who the hell is anyone to decide that what I do, or what the SNP does within the current legal system needs monitoring.

Look at the posts: #94 is an example. Who the F@@@ are YOU to decide or Westminster on the "Democratic Wishes" of the people.

Ask "Maggie" Brown whether it is the will of the people for the latest EU changes. Is it the will of the people to fight the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Is it the will of the people to have that man sitting in No.10 telling us what to do. YOU may think so, but since when did you become spokespersons for the "Democratic Will" of the people.

Nothing scares me so much as you @@@@@@G unionists who decide the we need controlled. It is people like you and "Maggie Brown" who are a real and present danger to Britain and this bl@@dy" union.

98

Dode,

Shetland 16/09/2007 08:42:00

They went to great lengths to deny it too, it was always obvious that they went to greater lengths than normally required though.

99

Upbeat,

16/09/2007 08:51:31

The security services are the " eyes and ears" of any state.

The covert collection of information which will indicate how persons and other nations are reacting to events which concern the interests of any state is an essential of government.

Would it be a good idea to make policy in the absence of the very best intelligence.?

Understanding the motives and any possible methods that might be used to interfere with stability of the state is to be expected.

Everybody should understand that this covert work has been going on in one way or another in all societies since the beginning of civilisation .

It would indeed be shocking if some close surveillance to get a perspective on the motives of those who set up a new political movement in the UK had not occured .

100

I'm no really here,

16/09/2007 08:57:22

#108 and AFTER they have established that the SNP are not an illegal, subversive organisation or a front for terrorism? AFTER they have established that what was the reason to continue spying on them?

Is you argument that whoever is in power has the RIGHT and DUTY to spy on the other political parties?

101

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 09:00:49

It is interesting to note that a number of posters think that the legitimate operation of the Intelligence Services is to maintain surveillance on legitimate organisations within the UK, e.g. Political Parties, Trade Unions/ists, pressure groups inter alia.

Were these not the tactics used by Hitler (Gestapo), Stalin etc. (KGB), Honnecker (Stassi) and other authoritarian regimes.

It is one thing to keep a watching brief: it is another to use the State apparatus to undermine Democracy.

102

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 09:03:09

48 Pete fae Paisley

I have always doubted yer intellect and now you have confirmed my doubts clearly.

This story is confirmation of a Government using the national Intellience apparatus to spy on a rival political party not in the national interest but in their own party political interest and you support it.
This means that any party in power can treat any other rival politcal party as an enemy of the state.
Its just another blatent example of the rotten corruption within the Unionist State at Westminster to go along with the cash for Honours and the many other whitewashes and coverups.
And you support it.
Speaks volumes about your sunshine.

103

jdships,

16/09/2007 09:07:12

Is everyone niave enough to think that SNP, Laboiur, Tory, Lib/Dems et al do not have their own surveillance system ?
How does the "leaked dociment " get leaked in the first place ?
We have " Industrial Espionage" why not "Political Espionage"
I have no sympathy for any political party that "cry's foul" as they are all hard at it

104

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 09:07:41

38. Pete Fae Paisley

And this post says it all. British Unionism in a nutshell. Any dirty rotton sneaky devious method justifies the end result and to hell with democracy and the will of the people.
And if you cant understand the reasons for this way of thinking yer niave and no living in the real world.
Petes World! the world of the Brit Nationalist.

105

Tim (Blairgowrie),

16/09/2007 09:10:40

I think it's important to realise that Britain had just helped to defeat the Nazis. Not that I'm equating SNP with the Nazis (there are enough idiots on these boards who already do just that) but people would have been understandably suspicious at the time. It's easier to judge in hindsight.

It's also a fact that even the most peaceful of rallies have always attracted thugs and militants. I'm sure the SNP attracted it's own share of such people too.

For the record I'm not a unionist and am aware that I'm setting myself up to be bashed from all sides. I do however believe that under certain circumstances operations such as surveillance have their place (it's more recent events and double talk such as "sacrifice some liberty for our freedom" which have me more worried). Perhaps the intentions were not honourable, but life is too short and ifs and buts too plentiful to worry about them all.

106

Gnasher,

16/09/2007 09:14:03

Frank mbcride #111 - first of all godwin's law now applies. Beyond that - would you care to tell us what the legitimate operation of the security service is in a democratic society, other than to monitor situations where there is a palpable risk of subversion and the possibility of the use of violence for political ends? Do you deny that nationalists in the past have contemplated and used violence and paraded in uniforms?

Even batty old Siol nan Gaidheal - whose website you should look at following the link given by AM2 at #109 - proudly describes "a SnG Colour Party... drum beating, black banner waving... in their Black Shirts and kilts..." Dunno about you, but I want Blackshirts and the like kept under a very beady eye, kilts or not!

107

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 09:14:40

Pete Fae Paisley

Yer an Idiot and that is now official.

"Do you think a government is not entitled to defend it's own interests and is not entitled to decide where it's interests lie or how they should be defended?Quaint!"

Are you referring to the Governments own interests or the national interests?
See I think the Government is put there to look after the national interests no the interests of its own political party and when a Government is actually found out putting its own interests ahead of the countries then that Government should be punished in fact is that no the very definition of treason?
And you argue the Government must commit treason in order to sniff treason out.

Like I said yer an Idiot with a capital I.

108

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 16/09/2007 09:15:54

Am2 scrapes the barrel.

If intelligence agencies had anything on Donaldson's 'aspiration' to set up a quisling regime why would they have kept him intered for only 6 weeks.

Utter, utter nonsense - and you know it

109

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 09:16:12

113

They may very well have but they cannae use the Nationional one because its there for the National interests only not party political ones.
Is this no obvious tae anybody else?

110

Billy1690,

16/09/2007 09:16:51

Stop whingeing you anti-Union traitors. What about Ulster? The former Communist John Reid held sway over its protestant people a year or two back. Soon after he became Home Secretary and the boss of MI5. Now, is is to get the job of running Celtic FC. When he was a young communist he was a well-known Irish republican. Full circle.

111

walter,

16/09/2007 09:17:52

I can't remember where I read it but a phrase I read just after the 98 election stuck in my head.
"The people the government were watching are now the government"
If the government of the UK perceive an organization or an individual to be a threat to the UK then I would hope they would use the security services to check on them.
According to some on here (nationalists) that should not happen, I presume that if you get your way and Scotland separates from the UK then an independent Scotland will not have a security service to check on those they perceive to be a threat.

112

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 16/09/2007 09:20:36

JD ships- what a complete tool you are - of course political parties monitor each other - I think you have missed the point here.

I think this what you wanted to log onto this morning>>>
www.newsoftheworld.co.uk

AM2 how heartening it must be to have the likes of JDShips backing up your 'argument'

LOL

113

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 09:22:14

#109, AM2.

It is interesting that your source is MI5.

It is also interesting, is it not, the these reports were withheld from the peopleof Scotland for 60 years.

If the accusations were true, why were the namrdpersons not tried for Treason?

114

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 09:23:03

109 Troll (Scottish Office maybe)?

It is political fanatics like yersel that should be under surveillance.

So you think its perfectly justifiable to have an Ultra British Nationalist politcal party use a National Intelligence asset in order to protect itself from another rival Nationalist political party which is only using the same so called democratic system the British Nationalist political party used to gain power?
Explain in detail how you can legally justify this in the national interest of course and not the Governments interest.

115

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 16/09/2007 09:23:23

Bravo Honest Jock

Pete from Paisley really is a class - A

116

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 09:27:36

109 Troll (Scottish Office)?

What is the implications behind yer links then?

117

Fat Freddys Cat,

16/09/2007 09:30:44

I wonder what Pete fae Paisley would be posting right now if the breaking story had been Alex Salmond using his power to spy on the new nu-labour scottish party leader?

I can certainly imagine what his view would be and his hypocrisy on this thread is amongst the rankest I've ever read on these forums - brandishing nationalists as 'fascist' but actually posting support of high level political spying on opposition parties!!

118

Edward,

16/09/2007 09:35:17

The fact is that the security services set up in London were set up to protect the whole of the United Kingdom and NOT just the English. They were set up to protect the democracy, not spy on democratically elected parties.
The fact is that MI5 spied on the SNP, together with Special branch and that it continues to do so today
It would not be surprising that information gleaned finds its way to Gordon Brown and subsequently to Wendy Alexander. The information provided will be sanitised so as to not indicate source.
I would also not be surprised if the security services played a part in the voting fiasco in May in an attempt to keep the SNP out! (this last bit is supposition, but it shold be remembered that MI5's US cousins the CIA were regular in interfering with elections through either 'loosing' ballot papers, adding ballot papers and now in the high tech age adding a bit of software to jiggle arround the figures - it may sound far fetched to the technalogically challenged here, but it is possible and happens)

119

I'm no really here,

16/09/2007 09:38:14

I think the anti-SNP postings here show that they have a common view of Democracy, in line with the Labour Party and many other socialist states (SA is a good example) - "If we don't win then it's not democratic".

120

,

16/09/2007 09:38:16
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121

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 09:39:04

#116, Gnasher.

The Internal Intelligence Service has a duty to keep a watching brief on those who pose a danger to the State.

Their function is not to undermine nor thwart legitimate Democratic expression.

If their are legitimate concerns it is the job of the police and the Courts to deal with these using due diligence and impartiality.

122

,

16/09/2007 09:44:50
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123

Gnasher,

16/09/2007 09:46:14

#121 - I think they would need to have quite a formidable surveilance apparatus.

Let's imagine the scenario. It's 2015, and one way or another, they persuaded 51% of the voting public to vote yes in a plebiscite in 2010 and the rest of the UK has taken the opportunity to tell Scotland to eff off and try things on is own. A couple of years on people are a bit disgruntled - the Scottish NHS has brought in 50% co-payments, Scottish car tax is €10000 on the price of a Hyundai Elantra, the much-vaunted fuel deal with Venezuela has broken down so people are freezing in winter, the dispute with ITV means that Scots can't see Coronation Street and Emmerdale Farm, there's a mackerel war with Spain, and people are sick of hearing "Flower of Scotland" piped 24/7 in every pedestrian precinct in the land. 80% are wanting back into the Union.

They will have a lot of quislings (thank you Dougie Douglas #4!) to keep tabs on!

124

I'm no really here,

16/09/2007 09:48:32

#132 The point is that much of the surveillance is not so much to protect the state as to protect the vested interests of those in the establishment. Perhaps people have been watching too many James Bond films where the "baddies" are fought to protect "Queen and Country". More accurately the "baddies" are fought to protect inherited Wealth and Privilege.

125

Fat Freddys Cat,

16/09/2007 09:49:03

@131

is that a defence of the spying that was carried out AM2 - it certainly reads as if you are attempting to justify in some small way, the actions of the then government...

The SNP were using the very same framework i.e. the democratic political process, that every party uses. It may - like *every* other party - have had a loony fringe, but that *never* justifies spying on the opposition for political gain rather than security reasons...

Turn the table to the current day and imagine is AS had been caught tapping WA's phone??? comments?

126

Edward,

16/09/2007 09:50:39

#134 Gnasher
And what planet are you on
You should stop taking the mind bending drugs
For example why would Scotland freeze when it has its own oil and gas?
You really should get out more

127

Gnasher,

16/09/2007 09:53:11

Ooh look - Dr James Wilkie #130 has exposed a mahoosive big conspiracy in which a brave band of constitutional experts has forced the Crowned Heads of Europe to compel perfidious Albion to grind its teeth, etc.etc.etc. Now the Story Can Be Told. Wheels within wheels and all that.

128

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 09:53:40

131 Troll (Scottish Office)?

Only one thing to say about that Troll and thats

GUY BURGESS

129

watcher3,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 09:53:43

You have to laugh at some of the would be and failed Politicians that write this dross in here.

130

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 09:54:43

#131, AM2.

As i have said in previous posts the remit of the Internal Security Services should be to keep a watching brief on potential problems. However this does not extend to the undermining or thwarting of the Democratic process.

As for SnG, they were seen as a lunatic fringe within the nationalist movement. They were, as you well know, expelled from the SNP and, this expulsion continues to this day.

My view of an Independent Scotland encopasses all the rights and privileges that should apply in a Liberal Democracy, inter alia, freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to be free of unjustified State interference.

131

Gnasher,

16/09/2007 09:55:09

#137 Edward - lighten up. The oil and gas got used up to power the failed Scotland-Pluto space probe, Darien One.

132

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 09:55:59

121 Walter (Yet another Idiot)


See 117.

133

James,

Dundee 16/09/2007 10:01:53

#138

I saw Mick McGahey and Nicky Fairbairn drunk together on a train heading from London and they were both Unionists and fantasists.

I thought nothing of it at the time but you are showing the same tendencies.

When was the last time you beat your wife?

134

Dr. James Wilkie,

16/09/2007 10:02:37

#138. It happened, and it is fact. Read the reference before making a fool of yourself.

135

Upbeat,

16/09/2007 10:02:51

110 I'm no....

Study of the mechanisms surrounding the security services in the late 20th century is very informative.

Until the 1990's there was general denial that such agencies existed. Those who worked in them and led them had total anonymity.

During the 1990's in the UK the political mood changed . The roles of security agencies were defined and codified for the first time.

It is just as important today that the security services remain vigilant and have the widest possible spread of informants.

Had the importance of funding and maintaining intelligence gathering networks been better understood in the lead up to the Faklands war, for example , the build up of the military units that carried out the invasion would have been spotted early enough , and the whole episode handled very differently. (This emerged from the post war enquiry.)

Intelligence gathering is not a question of looking once, making a judgement and looking away. It is a steady process, building profiles and analysing trends. High complex, it is all about vigilance... otherwise it is worthless.

136

Gnasher,

16/09/2007 10:05:26

James #144 - that's nothing. I saw the Dalai Lama and Reggie Maudling together on a plane and they weren't earing celery. What is your point?

137

langtonian,

scotus 16/09/2007 10:09:15

#60 RileyHamish
1)Shergar, wouldnae hae a phone.

2)Bin Laden -Dead even Hubble is not hooked up Moslem heavanley Shangrila.

3)I will take your reply about Hubble as a big negattive, or a dinnae ken like.

4)I'll take that as a backhanded complement.

138

The true Seeker of the Truth,

at home... 16/09/2007 10:13:14

Maybe the unionistas should worry that the watchers have now become the watched. Those who seek to use spying on their countrymen to further a foreign power's agenda usually meet unhappy endings. History tells us that this is so...

139

UriahHeep,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 10:16:24

Apparently MI5 spied on everybody except the Russians- who employed most of MI5 it seems.

140

The ex Pat,

16/09/2007 10:19:13

We have ways of making you vote!

141

,

16/09/2007 10:20:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 969304, Article id was mapped to record!
142

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 10:20:13

146

This isnt a discussion on whether we need Intelligence agencies or not it is a discussion on their roll within our society.
Who controls them and for what purposes?
Well its obvious the Government of the day controls them so the Government of the day is responsible for the roll they play. If that roll is to enable the Governments own party to imply or declare a rival democratic party chosen by some of the people to represent them as enemies of the state and be treated as enemies of the state then that Government has become nothing more than an Undemocratic totalitarian regime and is in fact committing treason by putting its own political interests ahead of the national interest.
And not only that it is using valuable intelligence resourses that can be gainfully employed defending the state from real enemies.
And on top of that there is the fact that its the peoples taxes some of whom actually support the party under Intelligence surveillance that is paying for this very surveillance undermining their democratic right of choice.
And its the usual Unionist suspects on these threads that are going out of their way to defend this totalitarianism.
Are there any more arguments in favour of the Union as good as this one?

143

Upbeat,

16/09/2007 10:22:41

150 Not so but otherwise.

MI5 is concerned with internal security. MI6 work overseas.

144

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 10:23:21

151

They were spied on on behalf of the then Labour and Tories parties for their own political ends not the National interest.

145

GD,

I've heard it all now 16/09/2007 10:29:31

I'm sure this report comes as no great surprise to anyone since it has become ever more obvious that unionist parties will do whatever it takes to undermine the SNP and force Scotland to remain as part of the UK. (Despite us supposedly being such a drain on their resources!)

Good thing we have the internet now though which helps to counter the pro-union propaganda campaign.

146

Robert E,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 10:36:02

# 134 Gnasher

It changed its name to 'Emmerdale' in 1989. Get out more. Talk to people. Form relationships.

147

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 10:37:55

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/sep2001/oxb-s12.shtml

It is not the Government of the day that controls the intelligence agencies but rather the British establishment which controls everything including the Government.

148

Col. Blimp IV*,

16/09/2007 10:38:41

Can one of the Pro-spying lobby please remind us why President Nixon lost his job?

Or explain why he would have been in the clear, if could have proved that the Democrats were ploting to secede the states that they held, from the Union.

149

James,

Dundee 16/09/2007 10:44:50

#147 And it wasnt Chablis they were drinking either!

(Psst. Celery earrings a bit of a give away - carnation buttonhole and copy of 'The Thunderer' not good enough any more?)

Like I said previously, I'd be disapponted if leading Nationalists werent being monitored.
Also there could also be some sympathisers within the services as well!

Dr Wilkie has a valid point, but it's much more difficult for the 'British state' to get away with clumsy dirty tricks these days.
I dont think Alex should fear poisoning or radioactive contamination quite yet.

A very civil divorce should be as possible, as it will be inevitable.

150

Gnasher,

16/09/2007 10:47:07

#160 - You clearly aren't aware of the rebranding of Emmerdale Farm in 2012 after animal liberation militants forced the producers to change the format into a reality show whereby the animals took over and turned the whole village into one big eco-farm run by the beasts. This happened as a result of the massive social changes following Darien One crashing in Yorkshire. Keep up with the programme.

151

Upbeat,

16/09/2007 10:53:27

154

You seem to be under some difficult illusions here.

Firstly.

The remit of any security service is to be the "eyes and ears of the state" . Intelligence gathering works slowly and long term, analysing huge quantities of intelligence from a vast array of sources.

It takes years, sometimes decades, for any potential agent to rise into a position where the information he can deliver will be of value to those that "employ" him.

Secondly:

The government of the day is in reality a passing thing , not in any position for long enough to alter radically the placement of intelligence gathering assets. Instead, the agencies themselves " above politics" detect trends that need to be monitored and approach the interparty committee that oversees the intelligence services to initiate activities. But the remit of the service is wider still..for the government of the day will expect the security services to deliver advice when it is requested. This is so widely understood in Westminster that the work of the security services is monitored by a parliamentary joint committee, not simply in private /secret by the governing party.

At the outset of the present Iraq conflict, the British public watched as influential people in Downing street manipulated the intelligence and discarded inconvenient reservations, expressed clearly by the security service, that conflicted wth the " spin" that was seen as necessary to justify war.

This affair showed precisely why the earlier more covert arrangement had worked so well. What occured and is reported in the investigative Hutton report , brought the whole " modernsied and codified " system into the open in a most damaging way.

Finally, it is unwise to attempt to separate the work of the security services from modern political reality. Your attempt to tell me that this thread is only about the biassed influence of the Governing

152

Col. Blimp IV*,

16/09/2007 10:55:07

When the Wee Malkies come

And they will come.

153

ordinaryperson,

Greenock 16/09/2007 10:57:13

The establishment supports rule by the establishment. The SNP supports rule by the people. What the SNP supports is called democracy Pete, and is also known as sovereignty lying with the people You would be up in arms if the roles were reversed.

154

boudica,

Glasgow 16/09/2007 10:57:22

Of course MI5 would keeping an eye on the SNP for amongst them were nazi sympathisers ,and of course Arthur ( The Scottish Quisling )Donaldson who was raeady to set up a Vichy style government in Scotland ...So yep I would expect our Security Services to keep an eye on such Traitors ...That is their job after all ......or do todays SNP supporters forget their parties Past History ???

155

john z,

16/09/2007 11:03:01

Might I suggest that anyone who is angry about this, takes time to write to both their MP, MSP, and fuehrer brown in Dictatorship HQ, London.

This is supposed to be a democracy!!! This is truly outrageous.

Mr Salmond, please take action on this.

...Oh, hang on, there's some mean looking guys at my door......

Big brother really is in control.

156

boudica,

Glasgow 16/09/2007 11:03:01

Of course MI5 would keeping an eye on the SNP for amongst them were nazi sympathisers ,and of course not to forget the SNP future leader >> Arthur ( The Scottish Quisling )Donaldson who was ready to set up a Vichy style government in Scotland .If the socalled german invasion of Britain happened..So yep I would expect our Security Services to keep an eye on such Traitors ...That is their job after all ......or do todays SNP supporters forget their parties Past History ???

157

James,

Dundee 16/09/2007 11:04:15

#120 Stuck in the Past

Dr John will become the new Dr No, inheriting the title from the FM of the 6 counties.

I full expect him to stand at Holyrood replacing Lord 'Hauf Hauf' Foulkes as the court jester.

158

english nabob,

16/09/2007 11:10:12

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

159

jdships,

16/09/2007 11:11:02

JD ships- what a complete tool you are - of course political parties monitor each other - I think you have missed the point here.

Why deescend to name calling ?
Ah ! sorry .
Having lived and worked in Brisbane a few years ago I forgot manners are not high on the list of priority's in that City !!

160

Col. Blimp IV*,

16/09/2007 11:12:14

#171. boudica, Glasgow

You know nothing of history, you silly old Englishwoman.

It was the Quisling Donald Dewar who set up a Vichy-style Scottish Government.

161

Saul Tyre,

Germany 16/09/2007 11:14:53

I can understand MI5's concerns. Aftre all, the British state is one of the most fragile on this planet and has to be protected at all costs from rebellious Scots with a low cringe factor seeking independence for their nation.

As more than half of the adult population of England support Scottish (and therefore English) independence, MI5 will have more than enough work on its hands. They can start by recruiting members of the Scottish office, who have been de facto redundant since May 4th.

162

ordinaryperson,

Greenock 16/09/2007 11:17:05

Boudica: What you say is slanderous. Half the Tory Party were in favour of supporting Germany at the start of the war or at least sympathetic towards an agreement towards Germany. In fact a son of a cabinet minister during the war set up a British Free Corps who fought alongside the Germans. Yet you do not condemn them as traitors.

163

ordinaryperson,

Greenock 16/09/2007 11:20:47

177:
Why do you not add on the point that at westminster elections that the biggest party there rarely hass a majority of the people's support but you do not question their right to govern. You seem to have double standards 177, but there is one crucial difference in that the SNP is willing to put independence to a referendum which is opposed by all the unionist parties.

164

Generalissimo Hernandez,

16/09/2007 11:22:22

Rulesbutnotrulers, Don't blame me, I didn't vote for any of them.

You didn't vote, so why should we pay attention to what you say?

165

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 11:25:18

185 Metalions

Quote: "Do the SNP supporters forget their party's past history?

No...I don't, but we've moved on."

hehehe ... this is a funny contradiction.

I have been reading these boards all week and know for a fact the SNP has not moved on from history. They often go back 100s of years to *prove* their point.

I wish the SNP mindset did have the capacity to move on, the UK would be a more stable place.

166

Geoff,

Wet South Africa 16/09/2007 11:27:51

Morning All!

Didn't MI5 also spy on Harold Wilson,suspecting him of being a Soviet spy? Also the CIA spied on many US politicians. As constituted, it is/was the duty of MI5 to look after the interests of the UK as it percieved them so their brief would include looking into the activities of politicians who looked "dodgy". Anyone with percieved links to Idi Amin might fall into that category.
Having said all of that,I would not be happy if MI5 exceeded the broad terms of their mission statement and spied on legitimate Nationalists seeking to achieve their aims through constitutional channels.

167

bud of ayr,

ayr 16/09/2007 11:31:03

In 1820, government spies once again were ordered to infiltrate the radical ranks. They encouraged the radicals to form a Committee of Organisation for Forming a Provisional Government, and on 1 April placards appeared on the streets of Glasgow, calling for an immediate national strike and a rising on 5 April:

"To show the world that we are not that lawless, sanguinary' rabble which our oppressors would persuade the higher circles we are but a brave and generous people determined to be free."

168

Geoff,

Wet South Africa 16/09/2007 11:31:31

Interstellarmince-Unionist clowns.

Mmm.

169

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 16/09/2007 11:32:24

Whaur's 'Linda from Shettland' and aa da idder divide an rule stirrers when you need dem?

weil, actually whin you dunna need dem.

Unionists - your support fur antidemocratic spying and bi implication agent provocateurs does you nae favours. tut tut.

170

SeriouslyAmused,

16/09/2007 11:35:14

Royster, you have plumbed the depths this time - comparing the SNP to Sinn Fein simply to make a shaky point of defence for the indefensible.

Really, are your eyes so wide shut?

171

Rob7,

Englan 16/09/2007 11:36:03

If they had nothing to hide they should not have a problem with it - Because they are Scotish they are more then likely Criminals so good for MI5 - keep spying!

172

langtonian,

scotus 16/09/2007 11:36:16

#180 Col Blimp.
However did such a small minded scurrilious mealy mouthed excuse of a human(?) being, the likes of you-- crawl into the light of day.

The above post I do regret, to some degree. On rereading your disgracefull #180, my comments stand.

173

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 11:37:32

#192 Methalions

You asked a Unionist to move on from the past. You showed that you understand people change.

I will file that away and wait for the post when you bring up an act of a person who died 250 years as justification for your separatist agenda.

174

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 11:42:58

#171,Boudica.

Were you a party (member of MI5) to the report on AD in the '30s.

Pity your political masters didn't believe you. If they did, wouldn't he have been tried for Treason?

Why, also, if the MI5 reports on other prominent SNP members, were true, were they kept "secret" for 60 years? Would their publication, at the time or just after the War, not have led to the collapse of the SNP?

What a sad apologist for the Union you are.

175

Tim (Blairgowrie),

16/09/2007 11:43:39

Since when did monitoring other individuals or parties have anything to do with being a unionist or not? Stop lampooning everyone with the same label simply because they take a different stance. Ironically it all seems rather undemocratic.

176

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 11:43:47

I do find the SNP supporters agruments funny.

We're not like that (thuggery, radical left wing nationalism, violence) now, so you shouldn't have spied on us then.

You WERE like that THEN, so you got spied on THEN.

I really have been wondering this week whether the SNP supporters are just trolling for those who are happy being British and part of the United Kingdom.

177

James,

Dundee 16/09/2007 11:44:22

#183 Oswalk Mosely was in the Labour Party was he not?

178

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 11:49:25

Dayglo Duck.

Excuse me for asking. Could you give us your premises for supporting the Union?

I would take it that they have no historical perspective.

179

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 11:50:39

James # 201

He was also in jail.

180

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 11:54:39

168

What a crock! and whats more you know its a crock.

181

Geoff,

Wet South africa 16/09/2007 11:55:32

192 Derrick-how ya doin?

Just look at my Unionist post at 188 and see how reasonable and even handed us Unionists can be!
Support fur antidemocratic spying indeed!
As for agent provocateurs(shudnt that be agents provocateur?) look no further than 194 Rob7-there's a good SNP man if ever I saw(read) one!

182

James,

Dundee 16/09/2007 11:57:10

#198 AM2 -

Nice try - If you were a neutral observer you would read your post and see that you are inferring that Alex Salmond was in the SNG (2nd Manifestation) when in fact he ws in the left wing '79 group.

Nice try though.

You can of course clarify this with your sources and confirm?

183

SeriouslyAmused,

16/09/2007 11:57:31

99. morris, Edinburgh

Yes, it happened, or happens. With phone technology having moved on, I don't think the tell tale signs are obvious as they were.

184

SeriouslyAmused,

16/09/2007 11:59:00

#208

shudnt that be shouldn't?

:-)

185

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 11:59:07

# 203 Frank McBride

I have a reliable source of energy to my house. My education and healthcare was/is/will be free, the streets are relatively safe etc etc. Life expectancy for a male is good, I can find a mate and settled down with who/where I choose. Employment prospects are good etc etc.

Why would I hate the union for providing that? Why would I need history or some quaint reference to tell me my basic and higher needs are being met?

The United Kingdom has done such a good job meeting the needs of everyone that sadly all the SNP have to do is bicker like thugs.

186

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Tapped Up?! 16/09/2007 11:59:30

The Save the Scottish Regiments campaign team all have had their phones tapped in 2004/2005.

We all experienced clicks and interference on our lines within an exact identical period.

We hardly live in what can be consider a free and democratic society.

187

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 11:59:58

171

And what about Labours past history?
What about the General strike that brought the whole nation to a standstill?
I bet when the Tories were in power they did the same to the commies in the Labour movement.
And what about all of those Soviet spies exposed within the Labour party Burgess Mclean etc.
Thatchers enemies within was a reference to the Trade Union Movement THE LABOUR TRADE UNION MOVEMENT.

198 Troll (Scottish Office)?

GUY BURGESS!!!!!!!

188

barbour,

Perthshire 16/09/2007 12:00:51

I think that the SNP supporters 50 years ago should feel gratefull that at least some one took the time and energy to see what they were about! Once observed,they were dismissed as a "wee chippy" bunch of non-entities,no change there then in 2007.
We live in a world where all perceived threats however insignificent are evaluated and so it should be.
In the UK all emails,telephone calls are monitored and certain "key phrases" if used flag up an alarm to the security services,sic the recent "bomber trials"It is the world we live in,like it or not.
Alec Salmond and his crew need not worry though,nobody can believe a word they say or write,again the SNP,no change there in 50 years.

189

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 12:03:34

Its all about the BRITISH ruling classes protecting themselves from everybody else and always will be as long as we remain within this decadent corrupt Union.

190

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 12:03:38

#198 AM2.

I'm pleased to see that in your proofs you are now using "ALLEGEDLY".

Your citings are all based on MI5 "perceptions".

AD was "interned" (for 6 weeks) as a result of the "so called" guns incident. If it were true, don't you think he would have been tried for fire arms offences and crimes against the State?

SnG were expelled in 1982 by the SNP with no reference to the British State.

The "Military Wing" of the Independence movement has been for a very long time been thought to be part of the State "dirty tricks" apparatus. It is funny that it only appears when the British State appears to be under pressure.

191

Geoff,

Wet South africa 16/09/2007 12:05:57

214 Seriously Amused-ok ok should be shouldn't,shouldn't be shudnt!

192

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 12:09:27

#222

You are as bad as Ayrshire Scot.

You just call anyone who thinks being Scottish and part of the United Kingdom is okay a troll.

You don't make any other points other than blatant contridictions such as the SNP have moved on, when they are clearly stuck in the past.

It's a real shame you behave like this because it lowers the tone.

193

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 12:09:47

I meant 221 Methalions

194

Miss H,

16/09/2007 12:09:47

198

As an SNP member I am fairly relaxed in fact about 'the establishment' taking an interest in SNP activities in the past.

Clearly they found nothing of concern.

Questions could be asked of course about whether spying on Billy Wolfe represented a good use of taxpayers' money. That is another issue.

There is an irony of course in the fact that the SNP has gone from being a perceived threat to the establishment to being the establishment.

The politician who now authorises phone taps etc in Scotland is Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill who in previous eras, such as during the poll tax campaign, would probably have been one of the people whose phone was tapped.

What goes around comes.

195

Col. Blimp IV*,

16/09/2007 12:10:46

195. langtonian, Britanicus

I have a much more incisive Dewar analogy but will keep it up my sleeve, for fear of causing you to spontaneously combust, this despite your foul manners and anti-Scottish nature.

As he is no longer with us, I do not harbour any particular ill-will toward him but it does concern me that future generations of Independent Scots will look up at his Statues, perhaps read the blurb at the bottom and assume him to be some kind of latter day William Wallace figure.

When we all know that he was more akin to Balliol or eh um whatshisname?

196

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 12:12:27

220

There is no official military wing to the Scottish Independence movement there is however a military wing to the Unionist movement with the UK and MI5 are a part of it. This military wing includes Special Branch and the London Met and will if they find it necessary include the British Army.
Our British Army.

197

James,

Dundee 16/09/2007 12:17:50

#220 Frank - for example is widely felt that Adam Busby was a 'plant'. This is why his return from Dublin has never been requested by the British State.

198

walter,

16/09/2007 12:19:27

#153

In a democracy the security services function is to protect the state from external sources seeking to undermine it. There is only a crossover to its own citizens if they are illegally assisting these external enemies.

Wrong, in a democracy the security services function is to protect the state from external and internal sources seeking to undermine it.
The British security service has MI5 (internal) and MI6 (external) to deal with such sources that may wish to undermine the state.
This happened in the 50's, Britain had been at war with Nazi Germany and that war was fresh in the minds of the British people and the government.
Why would they not keep tabs on the people and the party they represent who had been in negotiations with the very fascist they had been fighting.

199

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 12:19:59

#215, Dayglo Duck.

I'm pleased for you.

I wonder how countries (Spain/Portugal, Norway/Sweden, Ireland inter alia) have managed all this, and better, outwith the British State, or any other previous union for that matter.

Perhaps they have achieved this by being free, democratic, self-governing countries?

Obviously, in your world view, Scotland is incapable of being a free, democratic, self-governing country.

200

James,

Dundee 16/09/2007 12:23:13

#224 - AM2 I asked you to read your posting - you mention '79 Group, but then you 'surround' Alex Salmond's name by references to SnG, and you do not comment on anything else but the SNG after that. As I said read it again, it would imply that AS had an association with SnG.

At least I got a partial clarification from you, albeit a grudging one!

Scotland, Free or a Desert!

201

Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 16/09/2007 12:29:21

#200 Dayglo Duck

Have you ever considered that the British state has gone much further than simple survelence? What about the supposed suicide of the SNP Activist Willie MacRae who was about to make public the UK Governments plans to dump highly toxic NUCLEAR WASTE in Glen Etive? Most nationalists believe he was murdered by MI5 especially as the evidence for suicide is seriously flawed from a medical point of view yet was covered up in the subsequent inquiry by a senior figure in the Scottish legal establishment which ensured the same person became Lord Fraser of Carmylie. There is also strong evidence that MI5 were involved in political assassinations in the six counties of Ulster.

All active nationalists such as myself are aware that all our communications are constantly monitored, its just part of life because we are a constant threat to the integrity of the union. Which all goes to prove we are on the right track and our goal of self Government for Scotland will come to fruition and it is about time that all Scots who are unionists should start contemplating life under an independent Scottish Government and not cling to nanny Englands apron strings. "Holding the hand of nurse, for fear of something worse."

Saoir Alba!

Niall.

202

mona,

16/09/2007 12:31:23

OK, lets get this into proportion, snp members were spyed upon many years ago, as were other political parties, what is the big deal!

203

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 12:31:51

233

Yet the Labour party had very strong links to the Soviet Union throughout the 50s 60s 70s and 80s yet they continued with this spying using MI5 when they were in power on the SNP not because they thought they had any links to a defeated Nazi party but because they advocated for Scottish Independence which was their democratic right within a democracy.
The UK intelligence services are not there to serve party politcal interests but are there to serve the nation as a whole and you cant get around that can you?

204

Miss H,

16/09/2007 12:34:33

AM2 et al.

It is not a good idea to go down the road of trying to associate the SNP or the independence cause with terrorism.

In fact you will find that the overwhelming majority of people in Scotland who have been convicted of terrorist offences are loyalist terrorists.

Does this mean that loyalists are all terrorists?

Should the SNP government be spying on local Conservative and Unionost associations in case they are plotting to blow up the Scottish Parliament.

Somewhat unlikely I would have thought!

I know a lot of people get very excited talking about spies and skulduggery and so on. But please try and use a little common sense as well.

205

net watcher,

beside the Thames 16/09/2007 12:36:29

thanks you all for your ip addresses

206

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 12:36:38

#231, AM2.

I believe that there have been 7 convictions with regard to "Military Wing" incidents.

All have been dubious, with very short sentences being handed down.

If there have been as many organisations involved, as you suggest, I, and most people would have expected a lot more, prolonged activity and, a much higher capture and conviction rate.

The fact that activity only appears to occur when the British State is under pressure would suggest that "Military Wing" has a different agenda from the wider Independence movement.

Go to your archives and you will find that I predicted the "inevitable" SNLA incident, during the Election some days before it happened. It wasn't rocket science. It was based on previous experience of SNP surges.

207

walter,

16/09/2007 12:37:27

#244
The last time I looked Harold Wilson was Labour and the security services were keeping tabs on his activities.

208

barbour,

Perthshire 16/09/2007 12:39:50

# 240 Karinm
Don't worry paranoia can be treated or at least be assisted.
Is that a monster coming over the hill?no,just the guy next door,he might be a MI5 agent mmmm,you really need to get out more,but be careful folk might be watching,might be me!The lass across the street looks suspicious mmm.Maybe best to hide under the bed,yes,thats best.You need help,but the shrink might be a anti SNP person also mmm.You can't trust any one these days can you?

209

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 12:44:51

#244 honest, jock

I've said it before but, just for you, I will say it again; the British intelligence services are not in place to serve either the Government of the day or the nation but are there to serve the elite in the British establishment. If any group, including the SNP, is perceived as a threat to the establishment then the establishment will attempt to destabilize that group through subversion.

210

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 12:47:44

248

So?

211

Miss H,

16/09/2007 12:47:55

254

But the SNP are the establishment now. They get to decide whose phones get tapped.

I would go for Georfe Foulkes myself, just for a laugh you understand.

212

Col. Blimp IV*,

16/09/2007 12:49:03

#233. walter - "in a democracy the security services function is to protect the state from external and internal sources seeking to undermine it."

Wrong Re internal - In a democracy the ballot box is the only legitimate weapon, against those who's opinion differs from your own.

Your position (shared by the British Government) Justifies and legitimises every and all acts of Terrorism against the state.

The only beneficiaries of your Creed are those employed to spy on us and the crazies.

There is a criminal justice system charged with the detection, apprehension and punishment of those who break the law or conspire to do so.

Keeping tabs on those suspected of being capable of contemplating "Thought Crime", has no place in civilised society, Democracy or otherwise.

213

Suck McCrunchie (the eighth),

Doomster Hill 16/09/2007 12:49:26

Did Rik Mayall not once play a politician called Alan B'Stard?

I am quite in favour of MI5 spying on SNP, as any SNP politician I has the displeasure of meeting was like a sleazy B'Stard.

I am quite in favour of MI5 spying on Labour, as any Labour politician I has the displeasure of meeting was like a sleazy B'Stard.

I have never met a Conservative politician, but did see one once at a party (hen's teeth type thing) and would be delighted for MI5 to investigate them.

Sinn Féin - terrorists - investigate them unless bush gets there first (as if!).

In fact, investigate everyone in a position of power that's what they are paid to do.

However, to appear credible they need to investigate all parties, not just these 'new risks' formed in the last century.

They need to not look clueless, and not have a two digit security code on their answering machine, permitting stored messages to be retrieved and the message it offers callers to be changed.

They need to learn the message MI6 did that Oxbridge is risky.

While I am on the subject of MI depts - here's a cryptic one for MI1.

"We need to fix the Scottish Legal system, as to bar bush makes them appear incompetent"

Cheap bottle of wine to the first person who solves it. There is a real and obvious hidden message.

;-)

214

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 12:49:39

254

For once you may very well be right but sometimes that establishment is also the Government of the day most notably when its right wing and Tory and now NEW Labour.

215

Edward,

16/09/2007 12:50:25

The amazing thing about this forum is the amount of support shown by pro-union posters for the actions by the security forces of this country to have spied on and continually spy on a democratically elected party!
Why is it that they ignore the fact that MIF spied on Labour in the 50's and 60's which some find unacceptable, but when its about the SNP, who are doing well, this is acceptable!
The actions are beyond politics and should not be acceptable by any right thinking democrat.
If some of the so-called 'democrats on this forum actually beilive it to be correct that the SNP and its supporters should have been and are being spied on, then they are in fact followers of facist beliefs.
No doubt this will be criticised, but think on this. In countries such as Chile under Pinochet, Argentina under the generals, Spain under Franco. it was common for the people and the opposition to be spied on. As Britain claims to be a democracy and not a facist regime, why then spy on its people and political parties?

216

Suck McCrunchie (the eighth),

Doomster Hill 16/09/2007 12:50:52

always check the spelling when copying and pasting

:-(

*has = had

217

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 12:51:11

257

No the national Intelligence services are still controlled from London not Edinburgh.

218

Miss H,

16/09/2007 12:52:06

233 and 258

If Walter really believes that the government has a right to spy on internal sources seeking to undermine it then that must include a lot of people who post on the Scotsman website.

Ever hear any funny clicks on the line Walter?

Maybe it's the SNP spying on you!

219

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 12:53:20

262 Troll (Scottish Office)?

So?

220

Sunsetsong,

Kirkcaldy 16/09/2007 12:55:12

What must be more frightening is what these same Mi5 and Mi6 people would get up to if we WERE independent.

It strikes me, IF Scotland does become independent the Scottish People will have had to overcome the most subversive government and media that any country has had to struggle against.

It only confirms more and more that we are a GREAT Nation who need have no fear of going it alone. Why else would the Union stoop to such measures to trap us in this purgatory.

221

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 12:56:20

262 Troll (Scottish Office)

The Labour party now have strong links with Libyan terrorists should we inform MI5 do you think?

222

barbour,

Perthshire 16/09/2007 13:07:18

#274 Karinm
What did I say about paranoia?
When ones in a hole,stop digging!You really need help!

223

Buchanan,

California 16/09/2007 13:11:38

262. AM2

"Mr Aslen. G"ood afternoon to you. I have had you in mind today"

Step into my parlor, the spider says to the fly

You really need to grow up your preprepared
web links are a bore.

Saor Alba

224

Upbeat,

16/09/2007 13:14:10

Honest Jock,

You use theterm "crock" to describe the post at 168

I have no idea what you think a crock might be, so certainly cannot regard the explanation I set out for you as a "crock."

You love the idea of political conspiracy perhaps.

What I did was to point out that it is the whole purpose of the Security services to provide long term intelligence about the personalities , motivations of individuals and workings of small groups which represent a threat and could interfere with the workings of the state.

The exact terms of reference for the Security services is set out in the Intelligence services Act 1994.

If you look at this you will see that the security services today are required to operate only in the interests of the state , above party politics, by statute.They can and will be called to account.

In the 1950's the interests of the state were no different from today. The "eyes and ears" of the state would have been employed to detect any movements, organisations or persons who might have been conspiring to destabilise the democracy.

You would not expect any Government to jump at "paper tigers" , but similarly you will acknowledge that any Senior Government minister who had to admit:

" Oh, we did not know about that "

would hardly be fulfilling their role correctly in defence of the state.

225

Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 16/09/2007 13:14:11

#262 AM2.

Thank you for being such a consistent member of my fan club or are you merely doing your job as a MI5 tout? At least I do not need to hide behind an alias. I support the right for Scotland to be Independent, you do not, and need to hide behind anonymity to push your unionist views. So who is being more honest? Your reputation on these forums frankly stinks, perhaps its time to stop and reconsider because the tide of independence is rising and if you don't get moving, you like king Canute are in danger of drowning.

Air son Alba!
Niall.

226

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 16/09/2007 13:19:20

208 Afternoon Geoff in SA

in an Indepnedent Scotland, we will all be able to spell correctly.

227

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/09/2007 13:35:49

#275, AM2.

The "urban myth" of Adam Busby is of the same standing as that of Burgess, Philby & Mc Lean.

Your suggestion that your reply in #239 is anything, other than opinion, does you no service.

Your proofs, so far, have been nothing other than the opinions of MI5; kept secret for 60 years, why?

228

wisdom,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 13:39:06

The British State has a long history of carring out surveillance of all those it considers to be it's enemies or potential enemies and the use of agents provocateurs is a regular practice....it should be no surprise that 5 and special branch have been and are very active in Scotland....Mr.Salmond should make it his business to take control of ALL police and security service activity in Scotland and have ALL these agencies answerable to Holyrood....he should make this a priority.

229

Buchanan,

California 16/09/2007 13:46:03

282. AM2

Well thank you I have not been called "spectacular"
for a while.

It would appear that the SNP's only sin for being
monitored is it's democratic desire to speed
up the demise of the decaying British Empire. Personally I do not think that is reason enough.

Of course if conspiracy theorists like yourself truly
believe that the SNP can be likened to Nazis,
or Irish Terrorists then I guess in their minds their
would be a valid reason. I appear to recall that
a one point even your good self 'associated'
suicide bombers with the SNP so perhaps they
are even Islamic terrorists, but then again as per
(# 237. karinm ) you appear just to cut and paste
without actually have any idea what it means, so
perhaps you never really meant any of it ? Incidentally I think Karinm is still waiting to a response as is Niall - are you going to expose
your true identity or do we need to have
MI5 monitor you to find out?

Saor Alba

230

Pud Pu,

New York 16/09/2007 13:48:07

As long as the seperatist cause is around we should all support the democratic right of the UK government to democratically snoop on the activities of extremist parties like the SNP. The situation in Ireland was allowed to get out of hand and the Romans were allowed to run riot for years. We must be stong and nip the whinging Jocks in the bud before they too get grand designs. here in USA they would be dealt with quickly, clenly and effectively. Why else was Rannoch Moor put there ?

231

Jaybles,

16/09/2007 13:54:59

Every country has the right to protect itself, the United Kingdom is perfectly entitled to defend itself against fringe extremist parties like the (1950s) SNP.

It seems to me a little strange to argue that it is wrong to spy on these seperatists who seek to subvert our fair nation.

Nationalism and extremism born from 300 year old historical grudges that are indoctrinated in the vulnerable young when they are defenseless simply has to be countered by the United Kingdom.

While the SNP don't see how destructive and irrational their aims are, it is reassuring that our countries secret service have been allowing them their democratic rights while at the same time managing their extremist left wing threats to our sovereign nation.

I hope the BNP are also spied on in this way.

232

Geoff,

Wet South africa 16/09/2007 13:57:41

Derrick 280-then roll on INDEPNEDENCE in the interests of good english! No, scots?!

233

Col. Blimp IV*,

16/09/2007 14:16:00

#296. Geoff

Geoff it seems to me, you are just about the only Unionist who hasn't used this article to book a place in the forthcoming McGulag.

As a South African I would think you are better placed than most, to deliberate the pro's and con's of The State spying on it's detractors

234

Pud Pu,

NY 16/09/2007 14:17:12

Who cares about opinion poles. I was at school in Fife and the locals could barely reed and wrire ! North Britian should be regarded as a form of desert, a buffer zone settles by barbarians. It shou;d be treated in the same way as the Turks treat Ararat in Turkey.
God Save The Queen and the g;orius Union

235

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 14:29:32

278

So What? what has any of that to do with the illegal activities of both the Government of the day and MI5?

"In the 1950's the interests of the state were no different from today. The "eyes and ears" of the state would have been employed to detect any movements, organisations or persons who might have been conspiring to destabilise the democracy."

Are you totally stupid or are you just being deliberately aggravating?
This isnt about the interests of the State but the interests of the political party in Government running the state.

Destabilising the democracy????

You mean the SNP putting forward their own political agenda legally within that democracy on behalf of the UK subjects who were demanding it?

NO POLITICAL PARTY WITHIN THE UK HAS A RIGHT TO USE UK NATIONAL RESOURSES TO PUSH THEIR OWN PARTIES AGENDAS IN FACT ITS ILLEGAL.
CASH FOR HONOURS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

And if you think otherwise you are a moron!

236

Andean Bogtrotter,

16/09/2007 14:30:07

AM2 #232 Thank you very much for the reference to the history of the SNLA. Perhaps you have not read it all. I quote (Chapter 4):

"The central question in Scottish history has always been how to deal with the larger, dominant and more aggressive English neighbour. In Scotland, there are only two methods of dealing with the "English question": outright resistance or a degree of collaboration

Since 1746 and the defeat of the last great Jacobite rebellion, collaboration has ruled supreme, and has been the dominant force in Scottish politics. Scottish history has been re-written or forgotten, and replaced with an entirely bogus imagery involving Tartanry, and a heather and haggis cultural black hole for a national identity.

The country's national language - Gaelic - has been virtually obliterated, although it is still the key to the Scottish personal and national identity, while all sorts of falsehoods, bogus notions and reactionary ideologies have been deliberately promoted to create and maintain modern Scotland's "British" identity.

For example, Gaelic is still seen as “foreign” by many Scots, who have been encouraged to believe that the natural language of Scotland is English or “Scots” (“Scots” is the collective name for the English dialects spoken in Scotland).

In fact, Gaelic was once the vernacular language of the whole of Scotland. During the middle ages, its use in Scotland was general throughout most of the country. For example, at the coronation of Alexander the Third in 1249, the Latin of the coronation ceremony had to be translated into Gaelic so that the Scottish nobility could understand the proceedings.

Modern research indicates that Gaelic was still the language of the majority of Scots until comparatively recent times. Comparison of Webster’s population survey (1755) with Walker’s linguistic survey (1768) shows that Gaelic was still the majority language north of a line drawn between

237

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 14:33:43

#308 Methabore

I was just enjoying a coffee and a read of some actual opinion there before you came back on to talk crap.

What is it in your personality that allows you to think you have the ability to be interesting or humourous to read.

Although I think it's a shame that you unwittingly find enough time to put aside each day to humilate yourself each day.

On the plus side, you are a credit to failed labotomy patients everywhere.

You are a troll and post "25,400" on different sites you said. You really like to hear your own voice then.

What is most pathetic is the way you think you are moderator of the board, reporting people, telling the teacher, generally having a poor understanding of libel laws.

You are a sad man.

238

Wee Babs,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 14:35:35

Not surprising.

239

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 14:37:07

282 Troll (Scottish Office)?

"You seem to be missing the point quite spectacularly. The key question in this thread is whether or not MI5 was justified in monitoring the SNP. "

No it isnt the key question is why was the Government allowed to use national resourses in order to push its own party political agenda? and is it still happening?

Telling lies again? or just spectacularly wrong again?

240

Andean Bogtrotter,

16/09/2007 14:42:36

Ref. my post #310. The reference to AM2's post should read #239

241

Island Hopper,

16/09/2007 14:50:29

How many of us actually read the article before posting?

From the article:
The dozens of documents also contain the remarkable claim that Dr Robert McIntyre, the then SNP leader, wanted Scotland to pull out of the UK and apply to be the 49th state of the USA.

How ridiculous can it get?

242

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 14:55:28

#320

Alex Salmond at date wants us to pull out and join Europe. What is the difference? The SNP have always been the lowest common denominator selfsih forkwits to stain our wee bit hill and glen.

Thay are like children. ME ME ME, they will do what ever is £best for them today, and sod tomorrow. Populist politics with one finger in the air to see which way the selfish lowest common denominator opinion is blowing.

The SNP want to steal Scotland and sell it to the highest bidder, offering Scots less control of their lives. THey make me sick.

I hope we are still spying on them too, it is unthinkable the mess they could create.

243

Geoff,

Wet South africa 16/09/2007 14:55:52

305 Colonel B-alternating between this and Australia vs Bangla Desh game! SA in the worst of the bad old days really was a quasi fascist state.The 'sins' of MI5 by comparison,are mild.Many of my student friends were locked up and house arrested for relatively tame opposition to apartheid and the Nat government. Setting aside our Unionist-Nationalist differences for a moment and looking at what powers one should give to the secret services of any given country, the big problem is to define "the best interests of the State" and distinguish them from those of the ruling party! In a democracy each citizen should have the right to the impartial protection of the legal -security apparatus of the country and the right to pursue his or her own political beliefs,ironically,even if these include the aim of breaking up the Kingdom! We perhaps expect too much of human nature to have all the required impartiality in all the necessary places. In relation to this article and in order to gain a broad perspective we should ask ourselves if for example, MI5 spying on the BNP would be justified?

244

Pete,

16/09/2007 15:11:37

Dayglo Duck # 321

The highest bidder in this case being the Royal Bank of Scotland, Salmond's paymasters.
How will the RBS fund all of it's takeover pretensions, except with sweat of the brow of the Scottish employee?
Why does Salmond need the power to tap telephones in Scotland? Did his party not scoff, volubly, at John Reid when he warned that Scotland was vulnerable to terrorist attack; scoffed that is, until the attack on Glasgow Airport.
Salmond couldn't get on the phone to Gordon Brown quick enough then! Help Gordon, what do I do?

Salmond will use the power he has to spy on his political opponents. He can always refute that statement I suppose and set that power aside; but he will not.

245

Dayglo Duck,

16/09/2007 15:12:37

#324 Methabore

"Now you must admit I'm pleasant."

You're not pleasant, you are a smart arse.

Pleasant is something else. You could be worse granted, but you are a smart arse.

246

Alexander the Scot,

Michigan U.S.A. 16/09/2007 15:36:09

THIS IS TRULY GREAT! AM I WITNESSING AN AWAKENING OF SCOTLAND AT LONG LAST?! EVEN THE 'INPUT' OF TRAITORS TO THIS FORUM IS HELPING THE CAUSE BY STIRRING UP THE TRUE SCOTS WITH THE BLOOD OF SUCH AS WILLIAM WALACE, AND ROBERT THE BRUCE FLOWING IN THEIR VEINS. THE BRITISH POUND IS USELESS! WITHOUT SCOTTISH OIL, BRITAIN WOULD GO BELLY UP. AT ONE TIME ALL OF THE INDUSTRY WAS EMPTIED OUT OF SCOTLAND AND SHIPPED SOUTH. TO GET A DECENT JOB THE YOUNG SCOT HAD TO LEAVE HOME, SOME MOVED TO ENGLAND, OTHERS TO CANADA, AUSTRALIA, OR NEW ZEALAND. IN MY CASE I CHOSE THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE THE AFORE MENTIONED COUNTRIES ARE STILL "COLONIES", lizzy,s head IS ON THEIR CURRENCY. NOW IT'S ENGLAND'S TURN, JUST LIKE SCOTLAND, ALL OF ITS INDUSTRY HAS GONE WITH THE WIND, BUT THIS TIME OVERSEAS ... AND I'M LOVING IT.

247

Alan Reid,

16/09/2007 15:39:27

310. Andean Bogtrotter, that was interesting thanks for that.
321. Dayglo Duck, quite wrong there, the SNP are all Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, as apposed to the last bunch of halfwits who were always on the take, for them it was me me me. There is a big difference.

248

Col. Blimp IV*,

16/09/2007 15:45:50

#322. Geoff

I'm in total agreement with you on the subject.

As for the BNP, Throwing bricks and petrol bombs at synagogues and mosques is illegal as is paki-bashing. These are activities that some BNP members indulge in. If investigations into these crimes lead to the BNP its self, then fine but that is as far as it should go. As a left wing anti-Britisher I don't really need MI5 to help convince me that they are not nice.

Congratulations - you have broken the mould, the following is no longer relevant, except as history and humour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de6V90jT4SQ

249

Geoff,

South Africa 16/09/2007 15:47:50

344 Alexander the Scot-wow!

Just when I thought.....

250

Geoff,

South Africa 16/09/2007 15:53:51

345 Col B.-spitting images-priceless!!

251

Upbeat,

16/09/2007 15:53:55

309 honest,jock

Name calling is not a very good way of addressing the truth .

The facts I have set out to clarify this issue for you here are not my opinions. This is actually how it all works.

The Government of the day does not dictate where the Security services will be allowed to gather intelligence, and where not. the cross party Joint Intelligence Committee from Parliament has the final call. You should forget about your hopes that the whole thing is driven by any single party's political agenda, and thank your lucky stars that there are people who are prepared to put their personal safety in harms way, in the attempt to identify the horrible things that might occur within these islands, and restrain potential troublemakers before the public is put at risk.

Sometimes they succeed, sometimes not. But the work to identify potential trouble has to continue.

As you will note from the article above , more usually the truth about the activities carried through on behalf of the state , only emerges several decades after the event.

If this was nopt the case, some agent of the Government who works for years to infiltrate some dissenting organisation, would be identified immediately he revealed anything he uncovered, and his " cover " would be "blown."

Your local library will have books to explain the work of MI5, SIS( MI6 and GCHQ. ) .
The author Nigel West is the latest person, following in the wake of Chapman Pincher and others in the 1970's and 1980's to make the history and work of the Security Services more easy for the general public to understand.

252

langtonian,

Scotus 16/09/2007 16:00:11

#344

A havering tumshie if ever I read one.

253

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 16:06:55

348

I am not disputing how it works or how it is supposed to work but this particular case is nothing to do with national security and everything to do with party politics ie the Break up of the Union.
The security forces were working on behalf of the Government of the day on party political matters NOT MATTERS OF NATIONAL SECURITY.
How many times do I have to make this point?

254

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:08:41

AM2 # 349

In the mind of a Scots nationalist emotion has a higher place than reason. You wonder what is in their minds when they would strip the nation of an organisation that monitors those that would damage our interests.
There is no evidence that MI5 has damaged the SNP in any way. Nobody has been drugged, thrown into the hold of a C130 and dumped over the sea, has there?

255

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 16:14:33

349 Troll (Scottish Office)

Here's a few quotes from Scots on the subject of independence:

"Without it's own culture, Scotland (or any other country dominated by another) will remain a slave."

- Hugh MacDiarmid

"All must center in London... What are we esteemed by the English? Wretched drivellers, incapable of understanding our own affairs; or greedy speculators, unfit to be trusted? On what ground are we considered either as one or the other?"

- Sir Walter Scott

"Alas, I have often said to myself what are the boasted advantages which my country reaps from a certain Union that counterbalance the annihilation of her Independence, and even her name!"

- Robert Burns
“The opening day of the Scottish Parliament on 1st July 1999 was one of the proudest days of my life. However, nearly seven years on, it is obvious that the powers are inadequate to do a real job for Scotland."

- Sean Connery

"I agree that we should have tax breaks for artists in Scotland. They have been a huge success in Ireland. That was the start of it all. It seemed to signal a different mindset within the Irish government. I believe Scotland should be autonomous. It should be a separate nation."

- John Byrne

"Independence is simply the only way for any nation to control its own affairs and produce optimal results for its people. For me Independence is still the freshest, most precious and most compelling of ideas: for it is the only way in which we can deliver a more prosperous, more robust, fairer and more risk-free Scotland."

- Jim Mather

"Scotland should have more powers. It should be much more like Ireland and a Celtic haven for artists. We should be making it easier for people to exist, with tax breaks not just for musicians to live in their home country but artists like Jim Lambie who shouldn't have to live in New York."

- Alan McG

256

Col. Blimp IV*,

16/09/2007 16:18:06

#351. Methalions

Don't mention De-WAR....I did once(#180).....Don't think I got away with it.

257

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 16:24:59

353 Pete fae Paisley

I dont know do you? problem is none of us are privy to such things. Mind you you cant say they are not capable of doing just that if ordered to do so.

And in a Unionist mind there is no emotion or reason just party political self deceit and duplicity in the defence of the indefencible.

258

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:25:14

honest, jock # 352

Your point is well made licckybum, it's just that nobody believes it, or frankly gives a farg. Do you seriously think the, ubiquitous, man on the street cares what MI5 is doing as long as he is safe? I can see me walking down Causeyside Street thinking "I wonder what MI5 is doing today." Never mind what they were doing 50 years ago, yeah right.
The reason the Scotsman prints such dross is so that you kissass SNP drones can see the effect that your navel gazing has on the sensible, non SNP lickybum, majority.

259

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:27:48

Methalions # 356

Is that rhyming slang? First division, is that a euphemism for a major atrocity in Scotland? :-)

260

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:32:43

honest, jock, # 357

The only true thing you have produced is the quote of another, Alan McGee, on the accountability of the British government.
I would happily accept an independent Scotland if it were accountable, but then you have to remember Alec Salmond has done his apprenticeship at Westminster!

261

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:39:32

karinm # 371

Wendy who?

262

The Artic Fox,

Canada 16/09/2007 16:39:35

Without doubt Box 500 continues to justify surveillance of politicians from various political parties along with some groups and individuals from religious, private and public organisations and none.

The RFP process for an Op, regardless of signed warrants, is not too onerous – ‘…the work needs to be done Minister’

'Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants it is the creed of slaves.' Who said that again? Oh yes William Pitt, the Brit.

I am a bit surprised that the SNP feature as a target, given limited manpower and competing priorities for int. resources, human and technical. Or does it?

Hmmm, what’s the danger, oh yes, an outbreak of democracy, good grief! Come on Rumsfeld help me out here, does this qualify as a ‘known unknown’; my God it does make sense after all.

To the assorted range of Sneaky Beaky’s and Slime the world over remember ‘Time spent on reconnaissance is seldom wasted’ it works both ways, the ‘targets’ are getting smarter.

263

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 16:42:06

362 Troll (Scottish Office)?

"The family's solicitor, Aamer Anwar"

I presume so why?

359 Troll (Scottish Office)?

And do you think any of this isnt true?
Is it the truth Foulkes has a problem with?
Understandable being a labour MP and all.

264

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 16/09/2007 16:44:35

Who got the SNP's former telephone numbers in Holyrood? Are they the ones putting the pressure on the Government to have tapping blocked?

265

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 16:45:26

379 Pete Fae Paisley

Well at least its one more truth than you have managed so far.

So what do you think would be the quickest way for us to get a Independent Scottish Prime Minister other than via Alex Salmond?

266

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:45:59

karinm # 384

I have said before I don't belong to an ilk, masonic lodge, church or political party. I am not coerced, like you, into believing the doctirnes of Alec Salmond. Therefore, I am free to write what I think, say what I think without fear of the phone tapping of FM Salmond. If Salmond wants to tap my phone or monitor my IP address, I say that when he is political toast I will still be around.

267

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:47:14

honest, jock, # 394

The quickest way to an independent Scotland is to get rid of Alec Salmond.

268

Colin John Macrae,

West Lothian 16/09/2007 16:50:13

If it were not for spying; how would Wendy come up with ideas,its the only way for Labour in Scotland to wear another party's clothes its all Labour have left now they have openly gone completly over to the dark side ( the Tory party )

269

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:50:26

honest, jock, # 394

Show my lie or show yourself to be a liar.

270

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:56:30

karinm # 402

I didn't know Salmond was calling himself Illustrious Prime Minister now, taking lessons from Kim Jong Il now is he?

271

wattie>x 1,

16/09/2007 16:57:12

MI5 have spied on ordinary people from all walks of life since its inception. They have always been found in the Trade Unions, in many workplaces, and mostly factories producing for the state and important office establishments; and you better believe it; on these so-called democratic forums and your *private* Email messages as well. Should you disbelieve our lily white MI5 and MI6 wouldn't dare indulge in such mal-practice, you must really believe in fairies and the man on the moon; who may be one of the MI5?

272

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 16:57:48

I am opening a file called "karinm's Bloomers."

273

Maria Thomson la guapa,

16/09/2007 16:59:15

Methalions carino mio ...

Dayglo Duck was being baiting you and you bit ... no??


Now that said and done
As regards this story ...
So wee Eck and Big bad Nicola S. are dangerous subversives out to de-stabilise the status quo ...

Ehh ...

Duhh...

No wee Eck and big bad Nikki are self-serving politicians

... and 'snout in the trough' merchants

... it is us the voting public who need to

... "watch them like hawks" ...

... Not the James Bond crew

274

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 17:10:30

399 Ok Pete fae Paisley

All posted by you today and all of it s**** as usual.

38 "As it is the Westminster government should continue to watch the activities of the SNP and some of it's support as their totalitarian tendencies are showing."

48 "You watch to many conspiracy dramas."

65 "By monitoring the SNP in the 1950s the UK government was not conspiring against the SNP, but monitoring their direction of travel, in the same way the government is monitoring the UK Mosques now. Monitoring is not the same as undermining, I don't think the article above suggest that the government was attempting to undermine the SNP; that is a construction developed my SNP party activists."

353 "In the mind of a Scots nationalist emotion has a higher place than reason. You wonder what is in their minds when they would strip the nation of an organisation that monitors those that would damage our interests.
There is no evidence that MI5 has damaged the SNP in any way."

367 "Your point is well made licckybum, it's just that nobody believes it, or frankly gives a farg. Do you seriously think the, ubiquitous, man on the street cares what MI5 is doing as long as he is safe? I can see me walking down Causeyside Street thinking "I wonder what MI5 is doing today." Never mind what they were doing 50 years ago, yeah right.
The reason the Scotsman prints such dross is so that you kissass SNP drones can see the effect that your navel gazing has on the sensible, non SNP lickybum, majority."

379 "The only true thing you have produced is the quote of another, Alan McGee, on the accountability of the British government"

397 "The quickest way to an independent Scotland is to get rid of Alec Salmond"

275

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 17:13:54

Methalions # 409

What can I say, it's the way she tells me off...

276

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 17:14:56

369 Troll (Scottish Office)?

And that from somebody who isnt up on anything but relies on the Labour party for news on day to day events. If it isnt Labour party doctrine then AM2 Troll doesnt post it.

"Who is Graeme McCormick? He clearly isn't up on the Irish economy. Comparing net national income (GDP less depreciation and income payments abroad per head) Ireland ranks below the UK.

In any case, Irish growth has recently been driven almost exclusively by domestic demand, with net exports making a trivial contribution. Housebuilding is on the wane and the government is applying the brakes to public spending. So economic growth in the short term will become even more dependent on consumers regularly emptying their wallets, although given that Ireland now has the highest consumer debt in the World as a proportion of its GDP, that may also be reaching its elastic limit."

Says who? you or the Labour Party?

277

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 17:16:26

397 Pete fae Paisley.

Ah so its Wendy for Independence then is it?
Like her Husband.

278

The central scrutinizer,

jollygood 16/09/2007 17:18:11

How many spooks work for the Scotsman?,at least one i would think.

279

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose under surveillance or is it surviellence 16/09/2007 17:18:38

Just dippin in here as hae a life or at least laft flure ta lay

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

280

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 17:19:26

353 Pete Fae Paisley

"In the mind of a Scots nationalist emotion has a higher place than reason. You wonder what is in their minds when they would strip the nation of an organisation that monitors those that would damage our interests."

Our interests being who exactly?

281

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 17:19:42

honest, jock, # 413

Now that you have learned to cut and paste from a webpage we will go onto your lesson on Comparative Politics, followed by Radical Economics...

You spent the time to cut and paste all of that and your analysis is "s**** as usual." Everybody looking at your contribution has come to conclusion hours ago, without the cut and paste drama.
Drama Queen!

282

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 17:27:35

honest, jock, # 420

The British nation Jock; MI5 protects your interests, like it or not, as do the Police in Leith and the NHS.

There is not an opt-out for SNP supporters within the protective ambit of MI5. Enjoy it, or as you SNP avatars usually say, "get used to it."

283

2000 Staples for 99p,

16/09/2007 17:29:51

I have been quietly impressed by the level of maturity shown by the separatist hobby club today. I think there has been consensus on by both the British Citizens and the barbarians that the SNP in it's early days were a crass organisation much like the BNP, and as such deserved to be spied on.

I think there has been much consensus on Alex Salmond also and as his usual do as I say not as I do mentality to our partners in English government. By reserving these totalitarian powers powers for himself he is playing a dangerous game.

It is, however, a sad fact that he is now being encouraged to abus his phone tapping powers by the separatist hobby club members on this board to spy on innoncent Labour Ministers.

284

Home again,

Fraserburgh 16/09/2007 17:39:52

Och, well, in the fifties anybody who was anybody and many who were nobody were spied upon by M departments of the U.K. government. Happened all over the world. They won't find anything worth their budget by this spying if it is still going on. The S.N.P. is a clean party. Clean and transparent.

285

wisdom,

Edinburgh 16/09/2007 17:41:18

The Police ,and that includes special branch,and 5 are agents of the British state .Their mission is to spy on us by whatever means possible and use whatever means necessary to ensure that we don't step out of line.

286

2000 Staples for 99p,

16/09/2007 17:46:32

424 Home again

Come, come dear boy. You and I both know old chap that the seperatist hobby club have been using language like tartan traitors and "Unionist Uncle Toms" for a decade or more. This dark propoganda excites and stirs up the crazed barbarian side of the often already hateful nationalist over-swollen ego.

No! The SNP are not clean. Nationalism is a very dangerous ideology and with the wreckless and wanton managment of Scotland they may ruin this fine country for years to come.

Okay, admitedly that last statement is ott, to wreck this country they would have to make big decisions and not just arse around wasting money and renaging on manifesto 'commitments'.

287

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 17:46:50

The point, if all the SNP whingers care to recognise the facts are, that the SNP had no action taken against them, so why the outrage. No, it is the usual pernicious confection of outrage from the "greetin faced" avatars of independence.

288

2000 Staples for 99p,

16/09/2007 17:48:07

426 karinm

Breakfast and tea-time is when I check in to see what issues the ignorant separatist hobby club members are confusing themselves with at present.

289

Geoff,

South Africa 16/09/2007 17:49:47

419 Derrick- or Sir V.Lance?

290

Geoff,

South Africa 16/09/2007 17:50:42

Victor Lance that is,knighted in the Honours list before last.

291

Upbeat,

16/09/2007 17:52:07

352 honest, jock

and this is why I have gone to such trouble to show you that your snap opinion of what occured in the 1950's on this topic, is not very realistic.

The fact is that the security services will have investigated any questionable activity,they could detect , particularly in the light of some of the more " destabilising" events of the early 1950's,( eg: The "Macarthy witchunts" hunting out communist sympathisers were in full swing in the USA ( one example) The huge number of displaced people setting up new lives throughout Europe following the end of WW2 hostilities gave huge cause for concern about communist infiltration. , The cold war " Iron Curtain" had raised all types of suspicions about subversion in political parties, blackmail etc. . ) At any time, but particularly in those days, there was no way to judge which of the intelligence gathering operations would have discovered something extreme.

Take this to the modern day example and you will have heard, and seen on the news last year , the covert work done by the security services to uncover a huge fertliser bomb plot in Greater London. Had this plot not been unearthed then the consequences might have been horrific.

This type of intelligence gathering requires thousands of individual bits of evidence to be assembled, analysed and followed up. Without huge covert activity such things could never be noticed by the authorities, and acted apon in time. We surely would not want our government to be any less vigilant, today.

As I said earlier, had the Security services been better funded in the late 1970's their presence in South America could have been much greater. Instead the SIS personnel were deployed to where the threat seemed greater. The initial signs of the build up to the Falkland invasion were overlooked, with the consequences that we know about.

After all, at the most simplistic level, you will not find som

292

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 17:52:47

422 Pete fae Paisley

Thats another one to add to the list.

Its no in my interests to see MI5 helping the Unionist political parties to bring down the UK democratic political party of my choice is it?

Just for your info the SNP are supposed to be part of that British Nation and are working within its democratic constitution on behalf of some of its subjects on a political agenda and its not the job of the national security services to counter this political agenda on behalf of another politcal party with a different political agenda within that UK constitution.
But you already understand this point so why are you still hammering on with yer useless argument?

293

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 17:57:36

436

So what do you think was their bench mark for "something extreme" what was their brief regarding what was acceptable to the nation and what wasnt? Would a break up of the Union be seen as something extreme and a threat to national security do you think? and who got to decide what that bench mark should be?
Would it have been politically motivated do you think?
Party politically motivated maybe?

294

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 17:58:42

karinm # 432

They will not be spying on you, they will be having a big snigger though; they will be saying "If that is the strength of the SNP opposition..."

295

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 17:59:58

#421 Pete from Paisley

No your wrong Pete, honest, jock is not a drama queen, he is simply a silly old abusive and paranoid tart!

296

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:00:35

428

And that fae a greetin faced Unionist who's dead unhappy cos he thinks he will never see another tory government run Scotland.

297

Geoff,

South Africa 16/09/2007 18:03:26

419 derrick-not to mention the servile aunts!

298

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:05:34

440 The Maltese Cuckoo.

Another sharp incisive relevant Honest intellectual posting fae the turd that thinks its a bird.
What are you still doin here tattoo parlour shut early?

299

Kobi,

16/09/2007 18:06:30

I love the way that the nats on here who spend most topics berating the paper for printing rubbish and lies about the SNP, immediately assume that this story is true.

300

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 18:08:00

honest, jock, # 438

You are banging on as though the break up of the Union would be a bad thing in the eyes of the security services, but, you have admitted earlier that you have no idea. I suspect that the security services would show both sides of the argument and let the politicians decide the next move. Information, like cash, is neutral, what you do with it is not.
You are a blouse, a very revealing one for SNP ideology, motives and prejudice.

301

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 18:09:43

The Maltese Falcon # 440

In that I am happy to be wrong, especially the paranoid part!

302

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 18:10:33

#443 honest, jock

At least I get out and about, what do you do you clown. You sit at your keyboard day in day out boring the arse off the British nation with your constant repeated paranoid drivel. Get a life you sad wee abusive man.

303

Maria Thomson la guapa,

16/09/2007 18:12:30

#424


Are you implying that wee Eck and big bad Nicola S. are so ineffectual
... and non-threatening

... that MI5 no longer consider them worth observing??

Or is it more the case that back in the day ...

In the 1950's
... James Bond was bored
... with nothing much to fill his time ...

Whereas nowadays there are so many nutcase Muslims

... and potential jihadis
... living in Britain ...

There are now not enough hours on the clock to keep up wae aw they Islamic heidcases???

304

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:14:32

447

Out and about on a Island the size o Skye aye yer a real man aboot toon right enough. So whats it the night then mair tattoos darts or a donkey ride?

305

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 18:15:06

honest, jock, # 441

Let me correct you, again, if I "never see another tory government run Scotland" I will be the happiest non-SNP supporter.
That, of course, will not satisfy most SNP supporters who believe that Scotland needs more Tory torture before people will vote SNP in numbers to provoke a serious independence debate; because there is not one now.

306

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 18:16:18

449

As I said, a sad wee abusive man.

307

Ceolmor,

Canada 16/09/2007 18:16:29

I had an interesting conversation with a fellow Scot a few weeks back over a glass or two of Drambuie.
He works for the Canadian Millitary now. He was a member of the SNP {As I was} and was recruitied by MI5 in the sixties. Apparantely lots of SNP members were, on the simple basis that they were loyal to Scotland and therfore had not been infiltrated by communist Russia

Better the devil we know?

308

Col. Blimp IV*,

16/09/2007 18:16:42

I've always believed, you should do unto others as they would have done unto you.

There are some here who should be buggered and then shot!

Any volunteers to do the buggering?

309

The central scrutinizer,

jollygood 16/09/2007 18:18:07

If you become a target for MI5 then you should be glad,at least someone or something is interested in you,because lets face it your all a bunch of nobodies anyway.

310

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:20:59

451

Pot, Kettle, Black,

311

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 18:23:19

Ceolmor, Canada

You shouln't be relating stories like this to honest, jock. He'll be suspecting that all his fellow SNP supporters are in MI5/6 and will have to up his medication to cope with his increased paranoia.

312

morris,

edinburgh 16/09/2007 18:24:59

432

They wanted to monitor what they see as a threat to their Empire( and right to oil revenues which would cease under international law) should Scotland exercise her rights and vote herself independent.
They did not have a reason to monitor the SNP,thats why they were looking for one!Anything at all to discredit or disadvantage the wishes of the people ,is permissable where oil is concerned.
Pete from Paisley says the SNP are extremist and totalitarian ? Pete what do you think that word means ?You obviously don't have a clue since its the actions of the UK which are typical of a totalitarian government,not the other way round !Look it up in the dictionary.

313

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:28:49

456

For christ sake at least try to make yer comments funny this is getting seriously boring its no even primary school level. Are you on yer dads computer?

314

Maria Thomson la guapa,

16/09/2007 18:29:34

#454
Jollygood????

Hmm....

Methinks you don't like folks expressing an opinion huh??

315

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:30:28

457

Stop it! yer hitting him with reason he wont understand.

316

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 18:31:03

honest, jock, # 455

Isn't your claim to be "honest, jock," for others to decide?
If Alec Salmond pitched up claiming to be "Honest Alec" 83% of the Scottish electoral population would be entitled to look at him askance.
I think you should, in view of your compromised posts here, reconsider your "handle." I would suggest, "dishonest, completeley partial Jock."

317

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 18:31:33

458

AS i said, a sad wee abusive man. Watch out, your mums behind you!

318

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 18:35:46

#461 Pete

Exactly, I called the idiot dishonest jock weeks ago and that is just what he is. Used to be known under an other daft moniker; the spook from leith.

319

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:36:26

461

Its a logon Pete Fae Paisley no a statement I could just as easily use Sexy or studly or Handsome or clever or if a wanted to be a real prat I could have used Maltese Falcon.

But dinae you fret yersell wie words like truth and honest now it will only hurt yer heid.

320

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 18:37:05

morris # 457

Glad to meet you; another SNP avatar lamb to the slaughter. What actions of UK governments, say since 1945, can you construe as "totalitarian?"

If the UK government was totalitarian would the SNP exist?

321

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:37:50

464 The Sad wee bird fae Malta.

Now yer just being a tease. A Malteaser no less eh?

322

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 18:38:37

And have you noticed that dishonest jock is bi-lingual; English and broken English.

323

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:39:09

466

How about all of em. How many can you construe as democratic?

324

honest, jock,

Leith 16/09/2007 18:39:34

468

Are you a troll or what?

325

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 18:42:39

#470

Troll, thats your favourite word isn't it saddo.

Dive under your table saddo, I'm about to knock at your front door. Bang, bang.

326

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 18:47:40

honest, jock, # 465

I understand why you want to ditch that handle, another will be along tomorrow. I know it was not a statement; just a simple place to promulgate your prejudices and insult people anonimously. You will get far more credit by analysing the text in question and making positive contributions, than by making insults.
Welcome!!!

327

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver Canada 16/09/2007 18:49:19

It's interesting to note that all those posters who continuously identify themselves as anti Scottish Independence...and therefore can be presumed to be 'British' and either vote for one of the Unionist parties...all without hesitation...fully support the the concept that the state can spy on democratic, political parties without challenge. Even when such a party is the legitimate elected government!

Is there not even on ONE of you?, who find that this practice... by a government who outwardly extol the virtues of justice, democracy and individual freedom...is obscene!

Given your astonishing acceptance of this British government behaviour, it is well that that Scots move closer to independence every day.

I urge other undecided readers of this forum to consider the bleak mindset of those who defend this this kind of totalitarian attitude and would see Scotland forever shackled.

We are fighting a powerful and unprincipled enemy and need every free thinking Scot to support independence.

328

The central scrutinizer,

jollygood 16/09/2007 18:50:27

459,maria thomson la guapa.
Whatever gave you that notion,
it's just that some of the postings appear to me to be a cry for help.

329

Maria Thomson la guapa,

16/09/2007 18:52:08

#471
Steady on man ...
You will cause him tae keech his pants

330

Queen D,

Glasgow 16/09/2007 18:52:12

If I see one more cut and paste or one more quote from other posters attached to you Mr Know All ,I will scream,you may not hear it but believe me it will be loud!
As for you Pete fae Paisley,you come accross as an obnoxious,rude and abusive yob.

Might I remind everyone on this forum of Harold Wilsons experience.He protested about phone taps and jiggery pokery and everyone said he was losing the plot.
It transpires that he was'nt losing the plot and indeed 'they' were out to get him!!

331

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 18:55:04

I know I shouldn't really mention this BUT it's taken me about 2 & 1/2 hours for me too read this artcle.

When I got the part about the SNP plans to become the 49th state of America in the 1950s, I got totaly distracted with a fit of giggles as it sounded completley redicules and my grandfather who I belive was a member of the SNP back then mentioned nothing about this, while he talked lots about independence and democarsy.

Another thing that made me laugh when they said that they regularly atend party meeting and rallies.
Put a rather aumsing picture in my head of these agents going to these meeting, where they mostly talk about making pitions NOT only for Scottish independence BUT for otherpolical and social context things. Though the real thing that made me laugh was I amejentlly thouht of SNP jumble sales and book stalls. I spend quite a few saturdays at SNP fundraiser when I was wee.

It's just plain daft for MI5 to follow members of the SNP, the never found out much information any way cause they couldn't stop what happen in May this year from happening.

Wan really werid question to ask BUT does any one thing that theres a chance that MI5 really stands for Mother of all Idiots times 5. (Sorry feeling a wee bit bit odd the day)

332

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 18:55:21

dishonest jock

You can come out from under the table now, I was only kidding about banging at your front door.

333

wattie>x 1,

16/09/2007 18:57:21

The oldest method of control known by man is by fear? Along with traitors and spies it has been used since man crawled out off the caves and no group used it too their personal benefit and advantage than the Religious zealots who still find it very handy today; to fool the gullibleuse and naive.
Spying accusations are the most easiest form of propaganda to be used against an intended enemy as past and present history has taught us. BUT of course, we in the US and UK would never descend to such despicable tactics. Bearing in mind every movement made in both countries by their own citizens is being filmed and recorded. Every phone call made can be listened too and recorded. Yet we still have those from both countries who sincerely believe such measures don't exist in our freedom loving democracies.

334

2000 Staples for 99p,

16/09/2007 18:57:34

There is no way you can let the crazy nationalist barbarians away with running a separatist hobby club without spying on them.

They are deliberately out to ruin parts of the UK. MI5 must protect the UK. Alex Salmond and co would cut their own noses off to spite their face.

Better MI5 have a handle on that so they can minimise the damage these teenage charlatans can do while pretending to be a government.

335

morris,

edinburgh 16/09/2007 18:58:21

466

The answer is no ,of course,but monitoring of a political party for no legitimate reason is sailing in that direction,and if you cannot see that ,then theres no point in debating anything with you.We should just ignore you and wish you well when the Utopian Peoples Republic of Ferguslie Park is finally up and running,with you as its President no doubt,(since everybody else will invariably be leaving).Your arguments are completely and totally illogical and anybody who takes you seriously deserves what they get.I doubt there will be many!
Thankfully your views will never exist in sufficiency in a single seat in Scotland,let alone the UK.

336

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 18:59:25

#471. The Maltese Falcon: Are you a member of MI5 who misterastly gathered information form the Scotsman on every users here and in paticular focus on thouse who suport independence to be reported back to the MI5's head quaters to have checks made on them?


Or do I have an over axtive imagination trigger by this exicting story.

337

Maria Thomson la guapa,

16/09/2007 19:03:31

#149
QueenD ...
Harold Wilson is just a statue outside Huudersfield Railway station in W.Yorkshire these days.

However when Wilson was Prime Minister in the 1970's MI5 thought he was a Russian spy ...

Hence the reason why Thatcher (as in: the (sic) 'frail old lady' recently courted by Broon for a photo-opportunity)

... chased Peter Wright through the Australian courts and lost

... to try to prevent the publication of his memoirs ("SpyCatcher")

338

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:05:22

486 Eve

Sorry to disappoint you Eve but I think that you are correct in your analyses that you have an over active imagination.

339

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:10:49

#484. 200 Staples for 999p: Some question for you, a genus such as you should be able to answer.

Do you have bi poar diasorder, by any chance? I only ask this cause I sence a wee bit of haveing to be in control of everything in your statmatent.

Theirs no teenager MSP's at the moment! Unless you know something I don't!

When have the SNP done anything that dextramental to Scotland and the people of Scotland? (Please make it within my life time so no pre-1980's, Thank you. Cause thats far too much in the past for me. As read reastly on a title of a book "The past has no future BUT you do".)

How many times has a member of MI5 left a lap top on a train or in other public transports?

340

Wisnaeme,

16/09/2007 19:14:07

#438 Honest Jock.

Aye, about right with your political party motivation but there is alot more to it.Interested fiscal interests behind a political party's policies and the backers of same to name but a few.

Lets just say I have had some experiences of spooks, while involved in campaigning. Spooks and informants within a campaigning group and out with it.
One or two ingrats I later learned were from private organisations, hired hands to erm who-ever. Apparently privatisation PPP contracting appeals to Labour in all departments.
... and on another occasion it was a private security company hired by the bank of America allegedly and this is within the last 10 years.
So have no allusions of what is,it is a fact of life. If special interests are deemed to be under threat from whatever,whether those special interests are fiscal, commercial or governmental then actions will be taken to enable organs to be well informed on/of any given situation.What they do with that information is quite another matter.But being informed works both ways,doesn't it?
... and harm or embarrassment works both ways, doesn't it?

... and using that information obtained to best use with impecablable timing for a desired result works both ways,doesn't it.

.. and thats all ah'm saying on the matter.
.

341

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:18:15

#488. The Maltese Falcon (The agent): Mmmm, Thats exsactly what an MI5 Agent would say!!!

342

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 16/09/2007 19:18:16

487, Maria......etc.

I was told by someone who worked in immigration (Home Office) and who did have his phone tapped, that Wilson was given an ultimatum. Resign and write your memoirs or get taken out. You can decide on the reality of that.

484, Staples.....etc, the unionist hobby club ain't doing so well these days. Besides, I'm Scots so if an independent Scotland comes into being there will be no UK. What England does with its own regions will be up to it.

343

Jings Crivens,

16/09/2007 19:20:14

honest, jock

Haven't beeno on for a while but I see Honest John is still spouting his nonsense. I though he might have decided to get a life?

344

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:26:04

493 Eve

Now look here babes I am telling you the truth.

007 1/2 James Pond

xxx

345

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:31:26

496 Jings Crivens

dishonest jock is hiding under the table at the moment although I have told him that its safe to come out. Really didn't mean to frighten him that much.

346

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:33:32

#417. honest, jock: Speaking of Wendy apartly everyones favioutrte Lord (aye, right) Geroge Folkes has been slagin of her Brand New spin doctor.

Wendy is no pleased and George is insting that his opion is of many of the Labour MSP.

347

open,

west coast 16/09/2007 19:36:17

M.I.5 and M.I.6 have been subverting democracy in Britain for way to long.

The establishment behind Britain's secret services are the listening stations for the secret society's dominating , undermining ,funding and subverting British democracy.

Only when M.I.5 and M.I.6's real image is exposed not the James Bond version will we realise just how much they do to prop up the establishment control of the U.K.

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS

CIVIL TRIAL BY JURY ANYTHING ELSE IS TYRANNY

348

AMNo2tiredofmoaningtothemoderator,

16/09/2007 19:36:21

500?

349

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:37:50

#492 Karinm

stop turning round staples you wont see me.

Why, are you under the table with dishonest jack?

350

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:39:38

#497. Agent Maltese Falcon: What ever you say pal!!!
I'm inseont I tell you, I've only seen Babe wance, I don't have yer copy of the film.

P.S. Don't slag the ponds, I sometimes write my checks with them!!!!

351

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:40:58

gordon here

Not flash just gordon

Look would you unionists stop messing up my plans.
There was me had this plan with good old alex for years we agreed that i would go be prime minister down here and he would be up there then i would mess it up and scotland would be independent and you lot are trying to wreck it. Stop it. I planned this for years you know. That pest Tony kept getting in the way mind you. had to eventually get him booted off to the middle east. I put wee daft wendy in to mess things up in scotland and you lot are messing it up. The womans an idiot i tell you. Why do you think she is in the job.
The idea is p*** england off so much they jetison scotland. I have been doing a great job as well. Havent you ever heard of a fith columnist.

352

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:41:07

#501. AMNo2tiredofmoaningtothemoderator: Thats 501 NO 500, sorry!!!!!

Better luck for 600

353

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:41:24

#490 Wisnaeme

Are you suggesting that dishonest jock is a MI5 spook within the SNP? Wouldn't surprise me though.

354

2000 Staples for 99p,

16/09/2007 19:41:56

502

Every panto's horse rear end needs a partner. I thought having a friend to play pantomine horses might warm his heart a bit. But, alas, nay, the indoctrination of years of SNP hate has warped his mind to far.

355

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:43:23

Okay the thatcher thing didnt go according to plan but some you win some you lose.

356

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:44:20

#500. open: Hey pal, gonnae do me a fouor and trancelet this for me a dinna ken what it says. It might be the Cap lock being stuch or theres abravations there that don't make sence.

"LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS"

"CIVIL TRIAL BY JURY ANYTHING ELSE IS TYRANNY"

357

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:45:00

Staples what did i tell you last week back to your desk.

358

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:45:12

503 Eve

Your what I tell you? (inseont)

359

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:46:07

and staples stop playing that silly card game. Go sort out that northern rock thing like i told you to do.

360

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:46:56

#507 Staples

Why you having a go at me; I'm not an SNP drone.

361

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:47:40

Where did you leave that bugging device recieiver i put on camerons phone by the way.

362

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:47:41

#507. 2000 Staples for 99p: Karinm hates the SNP, Intersting, how I can read things so wrong, I thought they suported the SNP BUT I must have been so wrong.

363

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:48:27

Because i told him too i dont like you. When did you last pay any taxes eh

364

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:49:12

Staples im going to dock you pay for this. Get back to work

365

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:49:22

#503 Eve

I'm not your pal hen.

Babes was a compliment which has now been withdrawn.

007 1/2 James Pond

no kisses this time

366

Civis Israelensis sum.,

16/09/2007 19:49:38

As an outsider, can someone answer this question. After WW2 the British Empire gave independence to every tin pot country possible. Except Scotland. Why do you have to jump to the Sassenach's tune? Why do you have to send the proceeds of Scottish oil to London? Were Scotland independent, you could take all the money from your oil, tear down all the slums in Glasgow and build decent housing for the people. And you would have enough money left over to offer free university education to all your citizens. What ties you to England's apron strings?

367

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:50:58

#507 Staples

re 513 Sorry I mis-understood

368

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:51:34

Now where did i put that memo to alistair. Staples wheres my memo.

369

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:52:29

Staples i told you to go undercover you blowing the whole gig here.

370

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:53:12

#511. Agent Maltese Falcon: Sorry, must be a bad day, the unsignifactnt word was no delibrate and I'm sorry I did relasie how far of it was.

371

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:54:14

Ah how we are going to laugh at this little joke of Alex and I in years to come in an independent scotland. I thought the bit where i pretend i dont want to congratulate him was the best. I deserve an oscar for that one.

372

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:56:28

Or was my one about Gazzas goal better staples.

373

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:56:51

#518. Agent Maltese Falcon: Ah that was kisses at the end I thought it was the trible "XXX" some sort of code for something.

Sorry

374

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:57:05

#523 Eve

Are you communicating with me in code?

007 1/2 James Pond

375

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:57:40

Much better staples right make sure someone buys that northern rock bank thingy. Wasnt that a good idea of mine leaking it to the press. That will p*** loads of unionist voters off

376

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 19:58:59

Agent Eve desist fratenizing with the enemy.

Staples remind me how do you use that spell checker thing again.

377

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 19:59:45

523 Eve

Night babes; off out now to meet Goldfinger and Miss Moneypackets for a threesome.

007 1/2 James Pond

378

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 19:59:51

#525. gordon b: Are you a wined up agent?

If yer for real tell us how yer gonnae cope when John Reid leaves at the next election & When is the next election anyway.

379

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 20:00:16

Eve would you like a job at westminster i give them to all my friends.

380

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 20:02:14

531. John and i had a little falling out eve because he wanted my job and i wouldnt give him it.
As for the election have to make it look good for the punters.
So we have to wait till the faked poll things look good. Proabably may i am thinking that should be enough time so that they dont suss me out down here.

381

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 20:03:07

#532 gordon b

Eve has already got a job; she is dishonest jocks sidekick in MI5 who they have infiltrated the SNP.

382

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 20:03:21

and yes Eve i am very much wined up. A whole bottle of the stuff.

383

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 20:04:27

534 Putin get back to the russia thing I told you already stop larking about and playing with your planes.

384

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 20:06:02

#529. gordon b: Cool sounds like fun!!!!

385

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 20:06:04

#536

How you doing Meths?

386

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 20:06:28

And as for you Mr editor havent you read that flippin Memo I sent you. Stop printing the biased stuff so no one twigs what we are up to.

387

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 20:07:20

No it wasnt meths i was drinking it was vino. Your not still drinking that are you putin.

388

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 16/09/2007 20:08:16

#540 See you later Meths.

389

gordon b,

westminster 16/09/2007 20:08:17

Anyway have to go cameron is talking about how annoyed he is i had the old bird for tea the other day. Must go listen.

390

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 20:13:43

#532. gordon b: Aye sounds like fun!!!!!

#534. Agent Maltese Falcon: Where the h^&& did you get that idea from that ba$$%^£ still no appolagesed to me for unjustafyingly calling me the B word a few weeks ago. You really are spending too much time in bed with Goldfinger and Miss Moneypackets and yer research is sliping because of it.

391

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 20:19:06

#542. gordon b: Was it a turkey?

Cause I thought thoes things were only for christmas!!!

392

Hambo,

16/09/2007 20:26:11

"Violent Scottish nationalism in recent years has been characterised by its incompetence, but was that just our good luck, or was it the exercise of a "hidden hand?"

Hidden hand. British sponsorship of 'tartan terrorism' for more than 50 years is the true scandal, especially since it has involved recruiting children and adults of low inetelligence, quite disgraceful. We haven't (yet) reached anywhere near the depths of the British in Ulster and I hope we don't for all our sakes.

393

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 20:32:39

#546. karinm: On the contry, politics is more exiting at the moment.

We have George Folkes atemptying rip the Labour party in to pieses. By slaging of Henry McLeash and Wendys new spin doctor.

We also have knollage that Gorden Browns new best friend is Maggie Thatcher.


And now we have proff that the MI5 have been wasting money follow and resarching members of the SNP!!!!


Full of fun & exsitement politics is these days.

Are we really ready to stop the fun just yet!!!

394

Eve,

Scotland 16/09/2007 20:33:53

#547. karinm: What poll?

395

Russell M,

Stirling, Scotland 16/09/2007 20:43:00

Lord Acton, George Orwell, Thomas Paine, et al. have all tried to warn us, but we prefer to listen to the likes of Tony Blair and Co. We need a written 'Bill of Rights'.

396

Pete,

Paisley 16/09/2007 20:53:20

Thank goodness for this Scotsman forum, where else would these SNP avatars go after dark?

397

Hambo,

16/09/2007 20:55:29

#552
Projection? No.
Education? Yes.