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SNP plan to scrap private jails 'will cost £750m'

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Published Date: 20 May 2007
By EDDIE BARNES
POLITICAL EDITOR
PLANS to build two new prisons using private money are set to be scrapped by the SNP, in the first major change of policy since it gained power at Holyrood.
Labour insiders claim the plans will cost as much as £750m over the next 20 years, and will lead to lengthy delays in easing the current overcrowding crisis.

The move to bring two jail projects back into public control will place the SNP in direct conflict with prison chiefs and civil servants who have already started signing off the deals with private firms to construct the desperately needed institutions.

The row centres on two 700-capacity prisons at Low Moss near Bishopbriggs and in Addiewell in West Lothian. Construction work has already begun at Addiewell, with a private consortium having been given the contract to start. A bid to construct Low Moss in the public sector was knocked back by prison chiefs earlier this month, paving the way for another private deal.

The SNP insists that moving the two jails into the public sector will bring an end to firms profiteering from imprisonment and - in the long term - benefit the public purse.

The decision by the new SNP government to challenge the move is set to be one of the first major flashpoints of its period in office.

New Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Kenny MacAskill, is expected to meet chiefs from the Scottish Prison Service this week.

The new SNP administration has made the matter an "urgent priority" as they seek to prevent more private-public partnerships being introduced.

The two new jails were first backed by ministers in 2002 to house 1,400 inmates. An SNP source said: "We are committed to our position. There is no contract signed at Low Moss so it is simply a matter for ministers to decide over. We will look at Addiewell as well."

The SNP has said previously it may consider building the new jails through not-for-profit trusts. It argues that, over the long term, such deals would be far cheaper because the government would not have to pay out hefty fees to the private firms who run them.

But Labour insiders insist that bringing Low Moss into the public sector would increase costs from £750m over the next 20 years to more than £1.5bn.

• It emerged last night that Alex Salmond is to seek permission from the International Olympic Committee for Scotland to field its own team in the 2012 Games in London.

Scotland's new First Minister is to hold talks with the country's main sporting bodies within the next 100 days to draft a formal application.

Separate representation at the Games has long been an SNP ambition, with Salmond believing that Scottish sport has been in Britain's shadow for too long.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 May 2007 11:30 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scottish prisons
 
1

,

19/05/2007 23:44:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

The Strategist,

20/05/2007 00:07:46

Why would bringing Low Moss into the public sector increase costs from £750m over the next 20 years to more than £1.5bn? I don't understand this.. Can a Labour insider explain it please?

3

walter,

20/05/2007 00:16:47

The attack on the union has started.
I hope the unionist parties are going to prevent this, they have a duty to the majority of the people of Scotland who do not share the views of this minority party or the minority of Scots who support them.
This must be nipped in the bud now your supporters demand that you do not allow the minority to destroy the union.
That is why you were voted into the positions that you now hold so start doing what the electorate put you there for and represent them and their wishes.

4

Punta Prima,

20/05/2007 00:21:22

Walter. How is this an attack on the union? Why do you believe that the internment system is proper to the private sector?

5

walter,

20/05/2007 00:25:33

I am talking about the olympic team.

6

bully wee alba,

Salmond Ville 20/05/2007 00:26:39

It is unlikely that any justification of the alleged increase in costs will be forthcoming from the labourites. Their noses are out of joint because of the halt which has been called to the sleaze, corruption and cronyism which has characterised them for a generation.
There is a wind of change in this country, and Labour is being blown away!

7

Heidi Monson,

Scotland 20/05/2007 00:30:47

This is what I was hoping to see the SNP do. Privatized prisons are an abomination. Paying a corporation to cage human beings and make a profit doing it is obscene in the first place.

In the second place, it always costs more when major services are privatized. The idea that the business sector is more efficient is a joke, and when you also consider that a business is focused first on making a profit, then it's obvious that the public - meaning you and me and everyone else in Scotland - is going to pay those extra pounds to place in the pockets of the wealthy.

Finally, in the third place, what is going to assure that a private firm will provide proper services to those in prison to help them be capable of leading crime-free lives? A good example is the privatization of the water in London. Before it was privatized, the water service managed rat control in the sewers. Since privatization, Thames Water has opted not to continue the practice, since there's no profit in it. The result is only beginning to be seen. Rats have multiplied and are continuing to do so. Diseases are spread by rats. They chew through house wiring and the number of fires is increasing as a result. So, an unintended effect of the privatization of water in London has been a plague of rats.

The SNP is doing exactly what Scotland needs. Bravo!

8

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 00:39:45

Good to see Kenny MacAskill & the SNP taking the bull by the horns on this one - I hope this kind of robust policy is repeated throughout the Justice system because we definitely need it cleaned up.

9

Charles1234,

Embra 20/05/2007 00:45:16

Walter at #3

So you prefer a narrow opportunity for Scottish athletes to compete on the world stage as a small party of a GB team rather than a wider one as a Scottish team?

At the Athens Olympics there were 24 athletes from Scotland. At the Commonwealth games in Melbourne there were 169.

So why do you want less opportunity for Scottish athletes?

And what do you have against Scotland being represented at the Olympics?

Besides the team that Scottish athletes have been part of doesn't actually represent the political unit called the UK of GB and NI. It's just called GB. NI has a chymeric status depending on the sporting body.

But just what is it you are are seeking to preserve since all the union is is 59 bums on green leather at Westminster. That's it. Cross-border institutions can be shared without it.

So just what is it you are seeking to preserve?

10

albanoch,

Kyoto Japan 20/05/2007 00:45:19

#3 Walter..A seperate Scottish olympic team is not a lot to get worked up about..And the Union is well past it's sell by date and is a perfect example of an outmoded, archaic, ancient, old fashioned allience that was brought about by coercion, threat and bribery and should be ablolished as soon as possible..don't be so fear o' change...or have you got so used to slavery's chains that the idea of you and your country standanding on its own two feet is too scarey to contemplate? I am not only a Scottish Nationalist I am an English nationalist too and firmly believe that England and its people would be much happier if they seperated too.The Union is the ghost of the past of the days of old lang syne.

11

bully wee alba,

Salmond Ville 20/05/2007 00:47:12

We have a national football team, rugby team, commonwealth games team, golf team, hockey team, elephant polo team, even, ye gods, a cricket team, so, why on earth not an olympic team?

12

Auckland Arab,

20/05/2007 00:47:44

This move may well save £750M not cost us that. What a load of Labour bollocks. Even Thatcher didn't privatise prisons, so what the hell are the Socialists doing in that space. This whole public-private funding initiative is a total con. It is simply a way of getting debt off the Govt books, while massively increasing running costs for years to come. Smoke and mirrors financing.

13

Charles1234,

Embra 20/05/2007 00:50:43

And a headline based on the word of a Labour insider?

Maybe Eddie will follow this story up next week with an exclusive on how Labour makes its figures up.

And the SNP will be in conflict with prison chiefs. Aren't those the ones appointed by Labour and who the rank and file prison officers don't support when it comes to private prisons?

As for over crowding. Isn't that a consequence of fine defaulters being banged up at a cost far exceeding their fine with no return to society?

14

Wisnaeme,

20/05/2007 00:56:25

.
Excellent news. I have taken more than a passing interest in PFI/PPP scams since my involvement in the Skye Bridge scam. Value for money or best pratice they most certainly aren't.
While we're on the subject.Has the SNP decided on the personel to sit on the Justice Committee yet? Has that obnoxious creature Mr Michael McMahon MSP been relieved of his influence on said committee? Can we have an inquiry into the unjust criminal convictions of Skye bridge toll protesters,an impartial one,please.

Ta very much, Wisnaeme.
.

15

mesmiths,

fife 20/05/2007 01:04:10

#5 The real threat to the union posed by the olympics will be the amount of money directed out of Scotland to help fund the construction program in london- and they say Scotland will benefit what a joke.
On the prisons well done the snp this policy is widely supported and not least by traditional labour sorts- it will be interesting to see how the daily record responds as after all they always slate the running of (private) kilmarnock. Also, Scotsman, why is a claim from labour insiders your headline? Who on earth would credit it? It will surely be better long term value not £750m more. Another figure labour has decided to pluck out of the air- no-one believes a thing they say bar a few editors.

16

mesmiths,

fife 20/05/2007 01:11:34

#15 Jack had a go at getting the euros- albeit half arsed and embarrassing. If the snp do launch a bid I am infinately more confident in their abilities to do a good job. This ambition for, and confidence in, Scotland contrasts markedly with that of the previous administration.

17

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 20/05/2007 01:13:57

"Alex Salmond is to seek permission from the International Olympic Committee for Scotland to field its own team in the 2012 Games in London"

This is against the wishes of the athletes themselves and the general public - who when asked specifically whether they want a separate Scottish team or United Team GB, 54% say a united team. But then again it is hardly unusual for the Nat’s to be supporting an unpopular policy.

18

Richardinho,

20/05/2007 01:23:06

the Labour party would probably use PFI which over time would cost way over what it would if the govt simply borrowed the money in the normal way, but would have the benefit of not showing up on the books right now.

19

Richardinho,

20/05/2007 01:24:17

#19 Tough. If the unionists don't like it, why don't they form a coalition against the SNP?

20

innesm,

Austin, Texas 20/05/2007 01:29:04

Privatised prisons don't work in the US, they just create unsatiable demand. You do not want a capitalist psychopath in charge of rehabilitation. A good move by the SNP. Finally, common sense approaches to public problems.

21

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 20/05/2007 01:29:58

#21

If the SNP put their proposal up for a vote it would be voted down but of course they know this and therefore they will try to sneak it through.

22

Guga II,

Rockall 20/05/2007 01:33:29

Typical headline from this unionist newspaper; quoting Labour party rubbish statements without any facts or genuine statistics to back it up. This is just a continuation of the "fear factor" policies of Labour, to try and get people worried about the activities of the SNP.

Stick it to them wee Eck!

23

Richardinho,

20/05/2007 01:33:41

if they are able to 'sneak it through', then good luck to them.

24

BW2,

Everywhere 20/05/2007 01:34:54

#9 Peter Cherbi

I doubt whether Scotland has enough Cleaners to clean the mess left by Jamieson and Co.
Peter you should know about robust policies, They only apply when the Polititians want them to.
I would hope now that Mr MacAskill is Justice Minister he will look at the whole system which will now include my complaints of Malpractice and Misconduct within the ranks of SCCRC.
Can they for example Justify their their lack of investigation into my grounds.
Can they then also justify the amount of money spent on the Lockerbie case.
The whole judicial system as peter say's needs cleaned up, Is Mr Macaskill capable of the Job.

http://williambeck.blogspot.com/

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/sutra34.php#34

25

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 20/05/2007 01:53:51

What innesm said is true but they do save money. How, they pay the mininum wage with little or no benefits. They also operate as cheaply as possible. The SNP is doing the right thing.

26

nearlyneurotic,

20/05/2007 02:01:14

The heather smells sweeter already.

27

Charles1234,

20/05/2007 02:12:20

Darryl # 19 "This is against the wishes of the athletes themselves"

All of them? Or just statements by the lucky 24? What about the others who don't get the chance?

"...and the general public - who when asked specifically whether they want a separate Scottish team or United Team GB, 54% say a united team."

Only poll I can find is this one which puts support at 78%:

http://www.c-scot.org/PollResults.htm

"But then again it is hardly unusual for the Nat’s to be supporting an unpopular policy."

But why don't you have faith in Scotland being able to field an Olympic team rather than narrow the opportunities for Scottish athletes?

28

Charles1234,

20/05/2007 02:14:06

#23

"If the SNP put their proposal up for a vote it would be voted down but of course they know this and therefore they will try to sneak it through."

Coming after this that's hilarious:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/click/rss/1.0/-/2/hi/uk_news/pol...

29

Dubai,

20/05/2007 02:31:07

Sitting in Lagos in sunny Nigeria at the moment. Wanted to share a genuine email from a genuine Scotsman.

"Hi Murray,

Don't we live in a strange old world.

Who would have thought that the SNP would win in Kilmarnock and that Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness would be sitting round a table having a cup of tea and a friendly chat.

You would have got long odds against either just a very short time ago.

I started Kilmarnock North branch of the SNP with Danny over 30 years ago. We would have barely a dozen turning up for meetings and we could not afford to pay eatra for heating in the community centre. The thought then of ever winning in KIlmarnock was so remote as to be virtually non existant.

When tv announced a shock in KIlmarnock and that Willie had won I must admit to a tear or two.

The SNP have a great opportunity now and must ensure a proffesional approach and strong discipline in the forthcoming years. Still a bit concerned that Alex Salmond is a one man band but some of those interviewed after counts and throughout the night of the results came over quite well.

Lunch almost finished so better get going, take care


Robert"
Danny is Danny Coffee who died last year. Willie Coffee is his brother.

30

John S,

20/05/2007 02:44:18

Although most National Olympic Committees (NOCs) are from nations, the IOC also recognises independent territories, commonwealths, protectorates and geographical areas.

Twelve territories, commonwealths, and protectorates that have NOCs and can thus participate in the Olympics are : American Samoa (U.S.), Aruba (Netherlands), Bermuda (U.K.), British Virgin Islands (U.K.), Cayman Islands (U.K.), Cook Islands (New Zealand), Guam (U.S.), Hong Kong (China), Netherlands Antilles (Netherlands), Palestine, Puerto Rico (U.S.), and the Virgin Islands (U.S.).

Note the above have no seat at the UN but can still send their own team to the Olympic games.

There are 22 nations within Europe with a population of less than 5.5 million and they can send a team to the Olympic games.

Then why not Scotland let us think positive for a change.

31

bully wee alba,

Salmond Ville 20/05/2007 03:30:18

31

Perhaps we are contemporaries,
I was involved in the inception of the Dreghorn and Springside branch of the party in Ayrshire, back in the 70’s.
We actually did believe that one day, we would prevail, right was on our .
side.
We saw the corruption, sleaze and cronyism of the Labour Party and regaled. against it.
We saw what was wrong in Scottish society and we spoke up against it.
Yes, we were ridiculed, we were despised, every dirty trick in the book was thrown agin us , “Tartan Tories” lol, what a joke!

.Now that Joke O’Donell has been ousted from Bute House, a wee dram of Kilmarnock’s finest Black Label is in order.

Saora Alba,
enjoy your lunch.
31

32

Conan,

Here 20/05/2007 04:25:05

For about a fiftieth of that amount per year I will provide Scotland with a total solution to the convicted criminal problem - it will involve a one-way boat trip to S. Georgia ..... never to be heard from again ..... where the inmakes will live in shelters they build themselves and live of the land as best they can and once ashore they can manage their affairs any way they choose. No visitors, no parole, no return, no phone, no electricity - in other words; far more than they deserve. I imagine that after about five years of this I'll have very, very few customers.

33

Bill, Dunblane,

20/05/2007 04:28:47

15 - AM2

Why don't you just come out and say exactly what is meant by your post?

You want to close lots of Post Offices.

You don't want Scotland to host Euro 2016.

You grudgingly accept that a separate Olympic team was in the SNP manifesto.

Instead of wrapping it up in criticism, tell it straight.

34

Bill, Dunblane,

20/05/2007 04:32:56

If we have a separate Olympic team, does that mean we WON'T have to pay £Billion's toward's London's Olymics? (Lot's more than the £750Million in the headline - even if it WAS true!)

If so, good choice!

35

Breezy,

Argyll 20/05/2007 04:45:31

The bile continues from the ' Scottish ' press.............pathetic.

36

Brisbane Scot,

20/05/2007 05:10:33

They have privately built and ran prisons out here. They have lots of problems besides cost. Drugs and contraband are rife,but more importantly they lose prisoners on a regular basis. They are ran by a giant American Consortium who can loose not only low category prisoners but also murderers, rapists and armed robbers. It is not unusual to get news reports with the police swarming over areas with dogs etc etc and a warning to local residents to be careful not to approach suspicious individuals because they were classed as highly dangerous.

Governments/Politician like these companies because they are not directly responsible and can pass the blame on. They pay a price for each head and dont have the hassle of trying to help these guys get their life back on track. There is no skills training etc.

We have all been down the road of privatisation and it costs more for less. There are continual rises in running costs and the demand for higher profits. Electricity,Gas,Water as an example. Wee Joke was not showing independant thought here, he was just doing what all Anglo Scots do and following what his Westminster masters had told them to do.

As for Scots having their own Olympics Team. It is unbelievable that any Scot would not want to see as many Scottish Sportsmen/women as possible getting an opportunity to participate in the ultimate event that they have work very hard for and dreamt about.

My god I cant even believe that Anglo AM2 would try to deny them this great opportunity. Or Can I?.

37

Dubai,

20/05/2007 05:20:41

33. my brother made me put SNP leaflets through doors in Onthank in Kilmarnock. In the 70's a high risk occupation. And for the bigot fanatics my family was protestant while Danny Coffee and co are Roman Catholics.

38

Dubai,

20/05/2007 05:22:53

34 absolutely right.

39

Continental,

20/05/2007 05:51:17

We could have Scottish Olympic team but I doubt we would have one that had good quality athletes in it. Elite Scottish athletes benefit from the training facilites in England and most, if not all, are funded by UK Sport. Even if Scotland kept its share of the money it gives to UK Sport it will never won't make up the shortfall that the athletes currently receive. No matter what SNP say they will never invest the amount of money in Scottish sport that is needed to win medals. Some of our athletes will more than likely defect to compete for England, like two of our athletes have done already, and benefit from the funding already in place for London 2012. Chris Hoy and Shirley Robertson representing and winning for the new England/Wales/NI team!!!

40

Dave M,

20/05/2007 06:51:30

41 Continental

This represents a nadir in low aspirations.

41

watcher,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 06:54:32

I take it 5 jobs MacAskill has taken advice from our great leading economist, King salmond, where`s the public purse going to stretch to £750 million? Then of course all we have to do is run the system.
He would be better placed getting discipline into the schools and a fairer distribution of cash, then you wouldn`t need the prisons.

42

Advance Alba,

Antwerp 20/05/2007 06:54:36

The PFI question, it seems to me, is one of basic accounting. The PFI model is like a long lease plus maintenance contract - lower annual expenses but longer to pay off, and in the end, the Govt. owns nothing of the asset. Public funding means recognising the difference between capital and expense budgeting. If the Gov. build the place, using a mortgage, say, and operates the place itself, then it pays mortgage payments to the bank, but owns the asset, and meets the operating expense out of current revenues. It is elementary arithmetic to work out which offers the best Net Present Value.
I would guess that the Public project option provides a better solution, but it does require a financial discipline which was beyond the labour governments' abilities.

43

Dave M,

20/05/2007 06:55:43

Eddie Barnes

I have had enough of this 'paint it black' style of reporting.

Why is this headline based on Labour insiders' mutterings and where is the evidence to back it up?

I think that PFI is a dreadfully expensive way to finance anything and the sooner we bring an end to shareholders profiting from prisons, schools and hospitals the better.

44

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh we are in it to win it 20/05/2007 06:59:55

shows up what these so called athletes are just moneygrubbers.No pride in their nation.We don't need them,Go for it Alec

45

watcher,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 07:05:56

#46. Athletes!!! We got athletes in prison? No wonder we win f*** all. Let them out.

46

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 07:20:30

Great, now maybe we'll see real cost comparisons between PFI and PSB methods. Can the Labour source not provide you with detailed figures to back up his claim. In the old days we never gave credence to any information that came from an anonymous source and was not fully backed up. Maybe your standards of reporting have fallen too low now.

47

GrahamH,

20/05/2007 07:22:03

Labours short term solution with the RI in Edinburgh was criticised by Audit Scotland. SNP are looking long term. With money saved from trams....

48

Jeeemy,

20/05/2007 07:24:21

You lot have all fallen into Labours well laid trap!
This entire artical was designed by the Hootsman to create the kind of drival that you have writen.
The artical was writen by one of Labours Hacks.
There is no chance of Scotland getting Olympic recognition before 2012.
For an athlete to gain entry to the Olympic Games they must have passed or equalled an Olympic Standard. To-date there is no athlete in Scotland reached any standard required.
To compare Commonwealth Games with Olympic Games you are comparing chalk and cheese

49

Cadgers,

Perth 20/05/2007 07:35:08

#45 Dave M. Spot on.

50

2117,

West Lothian 20/05/2007 07:46:11

The Olymics is a farce because of professionalism and drugs. The Commonwealth Games is a bigger farce because it is a sad club for ex imperialists.

Wee Ireland has Croke Park, Wee Wales has the Millenium Stadium and Engurlund has Wembalee which cost twice as much as the Scottish Parliament. Our sad country has mingin' Hampden, the scraps off Maggie's table. Hing yer heid Gordon Broon.

51

Brian Hill,

Brian Hill 20/05/2007 08:00:53

I must say I really look forward to reading the news these days. The SNP are just so innovative and, would you believe, so very Scottish.

Since I was a boy I have hated the idea of Scots athletes furthering the reputation of British…i.e. English teams and getting back so very little for their trouble.

At the moment Scots athletes are backing Britain because our so called 'mother of parliaments' has spent so little on Scottish sport over the years that our athletes have to rely on British patronage.

However, once they see what this SCOTTISH government will do for them, they will soon come round. Let's go for it.

52

eric,

20/05/2007 08:04:41

Well done

53

Jay Kay,

Dunfermline 20/05/2007 08:11:24

Well done SNP I already have more faith in your leadership than the ten years of corrupt nulab, private companies how can they ever be more cost effective, from personal experiance I know for a fact that they are only interested in how much money they can rake in, the service to the public is somewhere on thier list of priorities, way down there after filling managers salaries, sakeholders pensions and quangoing thier way into the public sector.

Privatising prisons its like giving the underworld the keys to the cells.

54

Andra, Dundee,

20/05/2007 08:11:43

The problem with Government taking responsibility for big projects is perfectly demonstrated by the Holyrood project; the Millennium Dome; most big defense projects; etc, etc.

The problem with socialism is that socialists despise the profit that private individuals make despite the saving that they can provide to the taxpayer.

We would not expect the Government to make our bread more efficiently or build bakeries at public expense because the results would include expensive bread / government subsidy, bread shortages and bread wasted.

The SNP seem even better at Old Labour dogma that than Old Labour themselves. If this is a measure of what is to come then bring on the next election!

55

Boy Wonder,

20/05/2007 08:13:24

Our own Olympic team??? No more "God Save The Queen" when it's a Scot who wins??

I'm ALL for it!

Now let's get a proper anthem for the country. I like O Flower ... but it's a bit too anti-English and I don't agree with that. I much prefer Scotland the Brave, but not Highland Cathedral which is too churchy sounding!

56

watcher,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 08:13:25

Love it 55, winding up the SNP. Some of them actually think that they are innovative. They`ve been in power a fortnight, and what a change there has been. What was the SNP election manifesto again?

57

Boy Wonder,

20/05/2007 08:14:34

And NO to private jails as well.

We're either responsible for our crims, or we hang them. Take your pick!

58

Dave M,

20/05/2007 08:30:54

61 Watcher

You are very transparent.

What will be your next wind up?

59

Andra, Dundee,

20/05/2007 08:33:58

Re Olympics team.
Small countries have little chance in relays and team events. We have much better chances as part of the UK team.
Variety is the spice of life. We have a Scottish football and rugby team. Why not just stick of the UK Olympics team. The SNP must respect that many Scots have a high allegiance to the UK and many prefer being involved with a UK team.
I doubt any Scot with a chance of a medal is excluded from the UK team - if the UK has 10 good sprinters then they all go to the Olympics; if we have only 1 good high jumper then s/he goes. Sending a Scottish team will not increase our chances.
The Commonwealth games is Scotland's chance to shine at Athletics.
The Scottish Executive can still do lots to promote Sport / Athletics in Scotland so that more Scots make it to the UK team.

60

argonaut,

musselburgh 20/05/2007 08:39:21

nobody can argue that private jails are the wrong way to go, the security is lax and the staff 2nd class compared to prison service officers. Such institutions are not for profit gain, they are a public service and should remain so.
olympics in london are going to bring problems for Scotland, 1..the finance for it will be a drain on all UK finances also, Team GB are to form a british football team..this just provides ammo for the FIFA members whom are against the UK having 4 home teams, should we really set a precedent with having a GB footy team..i think not
a scotland team makes sense....

61

Dave M,

20/05/2007 08:41:43

65 Andra

If we had our own team then we would be able to get more athletes to the Olympics.

Can you imagine how many athletes would be chosen from British Honduras if they were trying to get into the British team?

Its also a question of pride. At the moment you seem happy to capitulate to the larger partner.

To see a Scottish team at the Olympics would be fantastic for the country.

BTW my wife is English and I would be delighted for my children to turn out for either country. Its their choice.

62

argonaut,

musselburgh 20/05/2007 08:48:41

Andra, Dundee

really what utter nonsense, your talking in the terms of the UK...'us'...'we'...of course smaller countries with smaller populations have lesser chances to win medals but the point is.....it would be a scottish team...any medal won would be even more sweeter.
to see a scot win a gold in cycling, swimming, shooting etc is a lot more satisfying than seeing a bunch of english guys win a gold on the track and i repeat a Team GB footy team will not be good for the home football nations...

63

daveserviceman,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 08:51:19

The only problem I have with the SNP is Alex salmond. The party would be better without him
Alex has no more interest in the people than the man in the moon alex is only for Alex and his self inflated ego
I would vote SNp and support them but for him

64

John Sutherland,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 08:55:26

None of our public services should be privatised, and that includes our jails. Therefore, well done Kenny MacAskill.

Also, Scotland should have its own team in the Olympics FULL STOP, and I therefore welcome Alex Salmond's plans to make this a reality for the London Olympics of 2012. That has worked well until now for the Commonwealth Games and so, there is NO reason why it can't do likewise in the Olympics. Scotland would have to end up having its own team in the Olympics anyway, once we become independent.

65

David C,

Fife 20/05/2007 09:05:26

PPP or PFI, or any other arrangement of capital letters, would appear to be Labours preferred method of procurement, because it is generally described as 'off balance sheet'. That way, the true cost is hidden. So, after 10years of Labour spin, and a complete lack of fiscal control, does anyone have an idea of how much the UK, let alone Scotland, is committed to over the next 20 to 30 years. In other words, long after Brown, and Bliar have grabbed the glory and run, we will be left paying for their profligacy.

66

JimC,

20/05/2007 09:07:22

#39
And what was your point of stating this? By the way its Coffey and Danny left this world for a better place over a year ago.

67

Gordon,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 09:09:33

At least we now have a government which wishes to change things, instead of more-of-the-same.

Someone posted that SNP would be better off sorting out behaviour in classes first. How many years have Labour had - and only made it worse. If not rehabilitating prosoners is the only way Labour could think of to reduce costs, then they were far wrong to think that was acceptable.

68

Salt Horse,

Napoli, IN the Tunnel!! 20/05/2007 09:10:46

Hi,

Good choice - why should friends of Labour benefit at the public's expense? There might be legal consequences but the truth will come out with SNP investigations and Labour are going to be rumbled, wonder who's non executive directors of the company building the jails?

What a breath of fresh air - a Scottish Olympic team - why not - we are a nation and by crivvens/jings (either will do) we will have representation. Sod paying for the Olympics in Londinium - what a bloomin waste of our taxpayers money.

SNP Manifesto is being followed, I'm certain this can only be good for us and our ilk.

SAOR ALBA

69

jennie,

inverness 20/05/2007 09:15:38

#7 Heidi - agree 100%. There is something truly disgusting about a firm profiting from prisoners. Prisons are bad enough when run by the state. Re-education, rehabilitation, preventing the conditionsof poverty and hopelessness that cause crime in the first place - that's a far better way of spending the taxpayers' money than lining the pockets of profiteering fatcats.

70

Dubai,

20/05/2007 09:17:45

74 try reading 31 nitwit

71

jennie,

inverness 20/05/2007 09:18:25

Incidentally, isn't the end of an article on prisons an odd place to tag the possibility of a Scots Olympic team? Or is the plan to draw our athletes from the Bar-L to reduce overcrowding....?

72

Anne, Glasgow,

Glasgow 20/05/2007 09:20:13

I did a project at uni. on PFI/PPI. Looking at the evidence from all points of view found it one of the biggest scams by Tory/Labour governments. The Tories kicked it off in the 90s with the principal reason of hiding the costs of these new buildings therefore maintaining public spending at low levels and worse New Labour carried it forward to new levels. The real cost is far, far greater in the long run to the public than it would have been in the first place if they had been publicly built. I really don't know the interest rate of PFIs, but I can assure you that it is at least 5 times which the public purse would have been able to borrow the money - the public purse gets better rates than anyone else. I have teacher friends who say that PFI schools won't last longer than 20-30 years and the buildings are badly designed using poor quality materials. The SNP are spot on with this move and hope that they continue with hospitals and schools. Anybody interested, go onto the Channel 4 website and look for programmes on PFI. You should come across one by a business journalist who had previously been keen on PFIs but attended a PFI lunch during the outbreak of the Iraq award and was appalled to hear the PFI businessmen crowing that their rip off would be buried by the news. Says it all, doesn't it!!

73

BOBO UMBONGONDO,

20/05/2007 09:20:16

Sense at last this private sector funding public works is nothing short of a licence to print money and rips the tax payer off.As a QS I see my bosses salviating at the prospect of these contracts,scrap all of them now the private sector and all other parties should tender in an open market,funding for public builds should come from the public purse rather than line private sector companys profits with uncontrolable costs,again paid by the tax payer.As a rough guide every £1 put into public sector builds by the private sector ends up costing the tax payer £6 in payback,wake up and smell the coffee,you are being taken for a ride.

74

Kenny A,

20/05/2007 09:22:02

#34 Conan I like South Georgia. going past cormorant rock is a good feeling, sticking these people there is a bit unfair. 28 pence and an Indian manufactured bullet is a lot easier.

Sick bloody fed up with criminals getting of with just about everything, but shipping them out to somewhere else is not a solution. They should pay the price at home. Look at how unhappy we were when the Aussies started dropping their rejects back on us.

Underestand the sentiments though.

Kenny A

75

jennie,

inverness 20/05/2007 09:22:47

#15 - AM2. Unprofitable some post offices maybe, but they are the lifeblood of communities. Mercifully, the SNP government seems to have a heart instead of a calculator, and be aware of the intangible profit that arises from a strong community. Happy people in strong communities are an asset to any state. Unhappy people in disintegrating communities cost a fortune in benefits, social workers, crime, health etc.
And if you had ever worked for the Post Office/Royal Mail you would be aware of the fact that the reason they are notmaking a profit is their appalling management. Really, truly, appalling.

76

Anne, Glasgow,

Glasgow 20/05/2007 09:30:31

I mean't to say 'Iraq war' in my post of #80 comment.

77

watcher,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 09:31:09

#69, I kind of agree Davie but I would like them all to go a step further, and come off the fence altogether. I`m a Socialist and I would like to give this freedom thing a go. If Salmond and all the rest of them declare what true politics they have, Labour, Tory or whatever then they might get somewhere, but one thing is for sure I wouldn`t vote for a one party state.

78

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 20/05/2007 09:33:46

Walter #3
If the union is so precious to the London based parties why do they not join together to form the Scottish unionist party and stand as such at the next Holyrood elections?

79

Le Drapeau Noir,

Gorgie Road 20/05/2007 09:38:01

Private-Public partnerships is a complete misnomer.PFI COSTS the tax payers dearly.The New Royal in Edinburgh is a shining example of short term gain for long term misery.It was adopted by corrupt Labour Councils(Mandelson step on up here) as a smoke and mirrors exercise providing "value for money"when they came to power in 97.
Previous Tory administrations refererred to it as "economic hardball".The xyz factor if you like.Good on the SNP ...economic medicine is hard to swallow ,lets just hope they are around to see its fruition in later years but a rocky path lies ahead for this administration for sure.Decades of financial mismanagement make it a tricky path to tread.Just a thought but hasn't professor Midwinter been awfy quiet since the election.I wonder why?

80

John1,

Stirling 20/05/2007 09:46:17

" ... the government would not have to pay out hefty fees to the private firms who run them."
Standard socialist rhetoric, in the teeth of all experience. SNP are further to the left than Labour and Lib-Dems. When will Scots come to realise that they have been brainwashed into the idea that making a profit is bad?
"The SNP insists that moving the two jails into the public sector will bring an end to firms profiteering from imprisonment and - in the long term - benefit the public purse. " They would rather see costs double than accept that companies aiming to make a profit are more efficient than those with access to the bottomless pit of the public's taxes. Using emotive terms such as 'profiteering' put up a fog which prevents rational thought.

81

Liam,

20/05/2007 09:46:45

So far all we're hearing from the SNP is what they're against. Do they actually stand FOR anything, or are they just a completely negative force in Scottish politics hell bent on scrapping everything? ...

... Oh yeah, they like football, allegedly.

82

cabrach loon,

inverness 20/05/2007 09:54:52

Great! jails and essentials are best govt run and should certainly NOT contain a profit margin, but why so expensive, half a million pounds per prisoner head to build is crazy *I cannot afford a million poound house for nyself and my wife or am I missing something?, they should be basic, very secure, easy to clean and administer and guard without frills or luxuries and just basic exercise facilities we do not want thugs doing bodybuilding when in clink surely.

Persons in jail should also temporarily forfeit their civil rights, vote etc.

83

David C,

Fife 20/05/2007 10:00:35

#80 Anne.
Thanks for the tip. Liam Halligan's article on the cost of PFI is most revealing. Recommend all who are concerned to http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/liam+hal... at

84

Le Drapeau Noir,

Gorgie Road 20/05/2007 10:11:48

#91..John
Who is saying it will double the cost??Labour??Ok we've got that straight in our minds so lessening the burden on the taxpayer long term is a socialist ideal is it??No it is not I can certainly assure you of that.
Perhaps this is an issue which touches the very heart of Nu Labour economic policy i e the games a bogey.Tax tax and tax some more..as i say if you need convincing try looking at the figures used in the argument for the new Edinburgh Royal.Its not rocket science..maybe the great AM2 can enlighten the people of Edinburgh to the economic benefit of a privately built hospital or better still ask Professor Midwinter.AM2 was pretty keen on his financial analysis on the ins and outs of public financing in the run up to the election.

85

David MacVicar,

web 20/05/2007 10:13:57

This article is the Scotsman reverting back to junk journalism. From the title to the content there is nothing but neagtive spin.

I dont know if the SNP plan is good, bad or indifferent as there is no substance in the article. I do have misgivings about privately built jails but I suppose it is the detail that counts.

At the start I got the impression that the SNP were going to just 'scrap' the private jails with no alternative.
Then we find out they want to use a non profit trust system. This we are told will cost 750 Millions.

Still Eddie Barnes is the political Editior. Who cares about detail and information when spin will do.
I would rather have some Facts about the private prisons; facts about the trusts and facts abot the estimated costs. Spin, I can get from Labour or the SNP directly, instead my only debatable (but useful) source of info is from the forum iteslf.

Why is the SNP plans to host a Scottish Olympic team tagged onto the bottom of an article about prisons? Are all our athletes in jail or something?

Please change the title to:
"Scostman on Sunday plan to scrap real journalism will cost it dearly!"

86

Dan McLean,

E Lothian 20/05/2007 10:17:06

It is all plain and simple, if a private sector can make a proffit out of building and running prisons then so can the public sector, the only diference is that proffit will go back to the public for re-investment rather than going to fat cat shareholders. This is the same with any industry, this is why nationalisation of our scotish industrys are so important, put profit back into the public domain for re-investment rather than shareholders purses.

87

Budgie,

Renfrew 20/05/2007 10:17:13

I did not vote SNP at the latest election, but I agree with their halting this privatised prison and new build funding arrangements.
Keep up this sensible approach and you are assured of my vote in future.

88

Duke,

20/05/2007 10:23:04

Well done SNP. This PFI nonsence is a Labour con, just look at the mess the NHS is in and will be in for 20 - 30 years to come. Why use private firms who will charge credit card interest rates, when it will be far cheaper in the long term to use public funds.

89

morris,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 10:36:35

3
What has the issue of a private built prison v a public funded prison got to do with retention of the Union?

There is absolutely NO connection whatsoever,and it could just as easily be a Unionist party advocating this. If the Labour party were not so far to the right and enacting policies ,more akin to Thatcher,and instead dealing with the rising prison population ,and its causes , there would be no need to build any prisons to cope with increased demand, which merely reflects upon the failure of New Labour's record on law and order.
Any governmnet which is proud of this record in office, really does need removing, before they screw up anything else.
The problems can only be the responsibility of the party who were in power in Edinburgh,and still are in power in London! The opposite of what you say has more truth than your completely and totally unwaranted attack upon a government which has not been in power long enough to be responsible for anything.Carry on voting Unionist please.

90

tb303,

20/05/2007 10:45:12

"It is all plain and simple, if a private sector can make a proffit out of building and running prisons then so can the public sector, the only diference is that proffit will go back to the public for re-investment rather than going to fat cat shareholders. This is the same with any industry, this is why nationalisation of our scotish industrys are so important, put profit back into the public domain for re-investment rather than shareholders purses."

Only problem is that the public sector doesn't have a clue how to operate a concern at a profit.

91

JimC,

20/05/2007 11:05:59

#78
There is nothing in those posts that make your religion statement relevant though I may be missing something here from another post, I am a member of North Branch and cousin to Danny and Willie, we might know each other, pop over to my site at http://www.east-ayrshire-forums.co.uk and we could have a natter. Nitwit! Typical Scot LOL

92

lilytulips,

Dalkeith 20/05/2007 11:07:47

What about the Council Tax thats crippleing people into debt.Like Widows who are having it hard time finding a job,because they are not that old 58,but spent 20 years or so raising a Baby and taking care of a elderly Mother, suddenly finds herself able to go to work but the Trade she took up is really for the young (Hairdresser)and has had tempory work, but cannot find a perment job at all. And when you are on widows benifit alone the monthly council payments takes alot when you do not have much in the first place. When you are working its a nightmare you are working just to pay your council tax. The council are doing less and less for their money once every two weeks collecting the buckets, you need something uplifted they will collect certain things for free. Somethig like a plastic garden chair they wanted £20.00 YOU SAID IF YOU GOT IN YOU WOULD SCRAP THE COUNCIL TAX I AM STILL WAITING TO HEAR ABOUT IT . NOT ABOUT SCRAPPING THE TRAMS OR ABOUT PRISONS. COUNCIL TAX!!! COUNCIL TAX!!!!

93

Chris Cook,

Linlithgow 20/05/2007 11:22:56

Why does everyone appear to think that the Public Sector can only borrow to invest?

Complete nonsense.

It's just that you will never read about alternatives to the conventional wisdom in this paper or any other newspaper beholden to advertisers from the financial services industry.

The SNP is half way right: ownership of public assets should be kept in trust.

But trusts make lousy businesses. An entrepreneurial trust is an oxymoron and they are notorious for being hijacked by management for their own benefit.

The "trust" should not do anything, employ anyone or borrow a penny.

Instead it should become a member of a "Community Partnership" LLP ("Limited Liability Partnership" - the "Corporate that Dare not Speak its Name") alongside:

(a) Occupiers/ users of the asset;

(b) Investors;

(c) Developer/ manager.

The Occupier pays a reasonable - index-linked - "Capital Rental" for the use of the asset, and this is shared proportionally ("Equity Shares" - exactly parallel to units in a unit trust) between the Investor and the Developer/ Manager.

Everyone is now - for the first time - "on the same side".

Investors get a reasonable index-linked long term return; Developers do not need to risk or borrow a penny.

But the crucial point is that the cost of finance is cut dramatically, since:

(a) land does not depreciate - so the only payment necessary beyond the "Capital Rental" relates to maintenance/ depreciation;

(b) because revenues are index-linked it is possible to offer a rate of return below Bank rates.

The development finance could come from land-owners (investing the value of the land), builders (investing some or all of their services) and the balance form risk-taking development financiers or "prudential borrowing" by government.

Once the development is complete it is r

94

Le Drapeau Noir,

Gorgie Road 20/05/2007 11:25:09

#103AM2
Thanks for the link to the right wing think tank that is the Washington Policy Unit.I'm sure you'll find copies of their "papers"strewn all over the Nu Labour offices in London.You see thats always been Nu labours' achilles heel...tracing out the economic blueprint of a country so far removed economically from our own as to be absurd.Lightweight taxation zones such as US of A have difficulty in borrowing funds internationally and are now restricted to fudging high risk strategy loans from "new" economic giants such as China.Enough however of George Bush and his failed economic policy.
Why is Private -Public partnership good for the UK Taxpayer in general and Scotland in particular?I'm genuinely interested if you think comparisons to the economics of housing a prisoner in Louisianna State Pen and in a PPP built prison in Scotland stand up to comparison.

95

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 20/05/2007 11:29:13

This is difficult to call for me - on the one hand it looks like disruptive and chaotic government by the SNP but on the other hand private prisons ARE a total disaster.

96

Royster,

20/05/2007 11:30:24

Why not contract out prisons to India or Turkey? Seriously, why not?

97

AJM,

20/05/2007 11:33:35

Just looked at what Alex S had to say on AM reported on the BBC "Well we haven't discussed it yet as a cabinet and a government"
I suspect this is a indication of what is to come, there will be little in collective cabinet. Alex will decide what is and is not a good idea and they will have to scurry about trying to explain and pick up the pieces. Clearly he had not discussed it with the minister responsible for sport.
He was good at picking up an idea and throwing into debate when he did not have a clue whether it was or not workable. Fine in a minority at Westminster, but surely Scotland is going to expect better from the first minister.

98

Royster,

20/05/2007 11:34:15

With a Scottish team, there would obviously be more Scots taking part. On the other hand, they would have even less in the way of resources. Just compare the English Premier League to the Scottish Premier League.

99

Royster,

20/05/2007 11:43:33

Also, wouldn't it better for Salmond to start concentrating on rounding up neds and putting them in prison than stopping building work that has already begun on prisons because of some out of date idealogical position? Tell that to the old lady who has been mugged for drugs money.

100

arunk,

delhi 20/05/2007 11:44:48

private enterprise is about profit and a substantial amount therefore privatisation is apparently about profiteering. substantial cost savings are theoratically feasible but with sleaze and kickbacks as the rule of the day may be some insider has seen the secret projections of the private parties and wants it all for himself. It wont be difficult to fool the elecetorate with enhanced costs in future while reality would be to the contrary.

101

AJM,

20/05/2007 11:48:38

#108
Spot on. The trouble with with the prison initiative it seems to me is that it is Political with a big P. When that is combined with concepts such as private prisons neither side is interested in saving money, Labour nor the SNP, they will not be in Politics when the bill is picked up. Money is the smoke screen, what if the SNP were to discovery on advice from the civil servants that private prisons were saving money would they change tack? I think not.

102

Le Drapeau Noir,

Gorgie Road 20/05/2007 11:56:10

#114 Royster..
Are you saying that quantity relates directly to quality?If so the product served up by the EPL is on the whole poor value for money(some good games/teams I accept).Did you watch the FA cup final yesterday?All we had was two giants slogging it out with a win/not lose at all costs mentality.The SPL is another testament to that old chestnutthrowing money at something doesn't necessarily make it a success.Still with the lad Lineacre and the buffoon that is Alan Hansen talking the EPL up they'll keep believing in their "product".After all Nu Labour have done exactly that with their whole approach to governance.

103

Geoff,

South Africa 20/05/2007 12:04:54

11 Albanoch-In any real sense,you can not be both an English and Scots Nationalist. In your case your"English Nationalism" is adopted only to suit your Scottish Nationalist agenda.
You may think the Union well past sell by date but the worlds best selling news magazine Time does not share your opinion. This weeks issue features Gordon Brown on the front cover. This "old fashioned and archaic" union features in the lead story which notes,inter alia, that the UK is 7th in the world for economic performance and 2nd for International investment.
To paraphrase the great man" Some archaic chicken,some neck!!"

104

Geoff,

South Africa 20/05/2007 12:07:52

21 Richardinho- Why dont the Unionists form a coalition-they can do that, any day of the week even if its not a formal alliance!

105

Richardinho,

20/05/2007 12:11:59

Odd that they were unable to do it last week then when it really counted.

106

Geoff,

South Africa 20/05/2007 12:15:39

122-not unable,chose not to.

107

,

20/05/2007 12:19:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 638557, Article id was mapped to record!
108

frank mcbride,

lusitania 20/05/2007 12:20:04

#116, Royster.

You seem to have been drugged by mug money!

Or, perhaps you are the owner or director of a PFI, mugging everyone: not only pensioners, company.

109

Richardinho,

20/05/2007 12:26:37

'not unable,chose not to.'

The effect is what matters. The internal tensions amongst the unionists are no concern of ours.

110

sgar,

glasgow 20/05/2007 12:36:20

All this public funding! Where do the public funds come from?
Will it be from the same source which sends the Great Eck to the Olympics and to all the international events?
Somebody has to pay for this 'public funding' and I have a funny feeling from reading all the above that many of the writers are getting more than their fair share of public funding! now and will not be contributors.

111

morris,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 12:59:37

120
If Scotsman Publications cannot adopt a pro Scottish line or even an impartial view point when its printed and published here In Edinburgh theres a fat chance of TIME magazine doing so!
Apart from the Glasgow Herald there are precious few publications which even acknowledge a rise in the SNP vote,far less place any significance on it!
A free press ? Dont make me laugh.

112

Andyvh,

20/05/2007 13:04:40

Well said, Morris.
1. State creates more laws - State needs more prisons - media up the hype on and fear of crime - society needs more prisons - State creates ever more restricting laws - ...... because they can.

113

morris,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 13:04:58

127

All expenditure comes from the block grant payed to Edinburgh from London ,and the devolved parliament decides how we spend it.That is what the Scotland Act was about,and if you are a Labour voter,you should not be asking this question, you should know this!
Before you carp on about you will have to pay for it,a) you always did and b) its money which Scots payed to London except its a lot less than we gave which comes back again!
You also voted for that!

114

morris,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 13:09:43

124
Slowly sliding into the gutter?
You mean its not already there?
Oh dear I thought this was as low as a newspaper could go. Evidently I stand corrected .

115

sgar,

glasgow 20/05/2007 13:17:01

Morris - I wager you still believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy!
Who pays for this ?
Your comment at 120 and comments made by others are really quite frightening and reflect a perspective on democracy which cannot be acceptable. "The only view is our view" If you are not wholeheartedly for the Geat Eck then you are an unpatriotic bigoted corrupt unionist /
Tell me who pays?

116

zigzag,

Canada 20/05/2007 13:18:03

here's a thought:

Maybe they need the NEW prisons to house Tony

Blair after he is charged with WAR CRIMES.

117

morris,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 13:30:23

132
If its financed from the public purse then we the taxpayer pay.Its not additional expenditure,its doing what the devolved parliament was created to do, and allocating our expenditure as the elected representatives in Edinburgh decide.
It can only go ahead if and when a majority of MSPs support it.This arrangement was your choice in the Scotland Act!
Thats exactly what I said .
THe alternative is involve the private sector which means you could be paying profits to fat cat shareholders in perpetuity.
If you prefer Tory values carry on voting New Labour. Its simple enough to understand!

An SNP administration can only do what a majority of MSps agree to.Thats a fact under STV.
Its called a democratic parliamentary decision.
If you are saying that it can only be a good move If Labour says so I suggest you stop before you say anything else.

118

sgar,

glasgow 20/05/2007 13:50:51

so if it is not additional expenditure then it must be taken from something else? What would that be?

119

IainA,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 13:55:08

#91 John1

PPP or public build is - or should not be - a conflict of ideologies. You argue that not using PPP is evidence of a left wing bias in the government, but I don't really see how you can justify that. It should be about best value for money and by that I mean over the lifetime of the building/service being provided. PPP could provide that, but sadly, it doesn't.

At the moment. the current private prison at Kilmarnock costs more per prisoner place than the prison service's own gaols. Oh ostensibly, the figures look good, the cost "per head" is significantly less that the prison service's on paper.

Unfortunately, the published cost doesn't reflect the cost of the infrastructure - the cost of building the gaol, the cost of manning and administering it - all of which are being passed on to the public purse - with a price hike because the business has to make a profit - but which don't appear as public accounts because of the "business in confidence" rules of the contract.

There's nothing wrong with a business making a profit, but a government is not there to provide profits for business, it's there to provide services to its' electorate and to do that it needs to be fiscally responsible. Sometimes the best way forward is to use the PPP option, but sometimes it isn't and in the case of private prisons, based on past experience, it definitely isn't.

PPP is an expensive way for the prison service to do business in the long term if the contracts issued are a repeat of Kilmarnock.

120

Heidi Monson,

Scotland 20/05/2007 14:08:01

#112 - Contracting out prisons is already being done by the U.S. They call it by that cute term "rendition".

Need any other arguments on why we shouldn't contract out prison work to other nations?

121

John2,

Kent 20/05/2007 14:17:38

A 100% Scottish Team in the London 2012 Olympics - A very good idea - then 5 million Scots can start paying an Olympic Tax (in addition to the Council Tax) effective from April 2007 until 2016, the same as 7 million Londoners are having to pay for the 2012 Olympic Games.

How about the Welsh - same again - everybody welcome.

122

morris,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 14:28:06

135

The entire parliament will debate and vote on what does and does not happen.Its probably not possible to accurately forecast anything of the future ,when you operate a minority administration,and it may not happen at all of course.
Unless there is backing for it from either the Liberals,Tories.or New Labour it will simply not happen at all.Again this is what you voted for in the Scotland Act.

Its absolutely impossible to say where it will eventually be taken from (if at all)until the parliaments work is done in four years time,simply because all decisions require at least two parties to support them before they can be implemented , and the priorities are constantly changing as proposals are defeated and additional funding becomes available again. Every government would like to do everything presumably.You simply cannot say ,only speculate,and Labour will do plenty of that,but most people realise its only speculation ,and not worth very much.
Anybody who supports New Labour (who are in favour of centre right policies)decalres to the world that he just assumes that what Labour are doing must be in the interests of the people,and is incapable of realising they are just a watered down Tory party.
Try speaking to Jimmy Reid the former Clydeside leader.He supports the SNP in preference to New Labour. He was a communist! If that does not tell you how far New Labour have swung to the right,it should do!

123

Gregorf,

20/05/2007 15:47:21

Exactly how anyone from a Labour perspective can argue against removing this from the private sector is beyond me. Is this not the party who choose to subcontract out our economy to London but then want a public service put out to the private sector here to catastophic results which have already been encountered.

How much more do they want us too pay. We are already a joke in terms of health ( the sick man of Europe) and in terms of wealth (lowest standard of living in Western Europe). Accountability is not something either the Labour party understand or Westminister - choose your own examples.

Personally, having supplied the second largest oil consumer on the planet for the last 30 years to end up with the poorest economy in the free market of Europe, is criminal, not negligent but criminal.

What is also criminal is having to positively discriminate to get Scottish students into Edinburgh and St Andrew's Universities. It is increasingly laborious having Unionists argue for the Union when we are dying younger than anyone else and our children are suffering.

Even the Unions don't want the Labour party now! They are a bunch of Westminister central war mongers more concerned with pocketing a few quid and personal qudos.

124

Geoff,

South Africa 20/05/2007 15:54:23

128 Morris-Howyra doin? But Time IS the worlds most popular news magazine. That must mean something

125

Geoff,

South Africa 20/05/2007 15:58:05

142 Gregorf-there may be no cause-effect relationship between children dying young in Scotland and the Union. This is an emotive topic but Scotland within or without the Union can and must remedy this. Dont blame the UK for all Scotlands ills.

126

Ex gourock boy,

Shrewsbury Pennsylvania USA. 20/05/2007 16:05:19

Aye these new prisons are an expensive item these days.
May I make a suggestion: the prison service should purchase one of these remote west coast Scottish islands. Build a fence around it and pitch a load of tents within the fenced compound. Bingo you have a prison. Life would be harsh but there again I thought thats how prison was supposed to be not the luxury hotels with TV's mobile phones and all the conviences of home that are now called prisons

127

John1,

Stirling 20/05/2007 16:22:18

137. IainA
I am not advocating PPP. PPP is a curate's egg, which can work out cheaper in the short term and more expensive in the long term. I AM advocating the involvement of private businesses because of their ability to to control projects and keep within budgets better than the public sector. If a private business gets it wrong it goes out of business. If the public sector gets it wrong it gets more public money i.e. the public's money - yours and mine, dear fellow taxpayer. Compare the RBS' new head office at the west end of Edinburgh (incidently in a location I would have chosen for the Scottish Parliament building, if we had to have one) - on time and on budget - with Follyrood, an overpriced egotrip for politicians.
PPP " should be about best value for money and by that I mean over the lifetime of the building/service being provided. PPP could provide that, but sadly, it doesn't" you say. Add 'every time' to that and I will agree with you. I once attended a lecture by Professor Alexander, a well-known 'Best Value' guru, on the subject of 'Best Value'. I asked him for a definition of Best Value. He could not give me one. My definition would be 'a system which gives the ideal balance between cost and performance'. There would inevitably be a lot of subjectivity in this but it is what any system should be aiming at. The public sector's record on this is abysmal, the private sector's rather better. Let's go for whatever system produces the result we need and are paying for.

128

Scottish Unionist,

20/05/2007 16:54:43

This is just the tip of the iceberg...

Would the last person to leave Scotland please remember to switch the lights off.

129

Jim P,

Netherlands 20/05/2007 17:00:04

#146 SU

We infer that you'll be leavin soon, or yer no there noo?

I'll be headin back soon as I'm able.

130

Pilrig,

Livingston 20/05/2007 17:04:07

I'm not to bothered whether Scots athletes compete in the Olympics as UK or Scotland representatives But Fitba Team GB ? The SFA are right to boot that ba' onto the slates.

131

puskas,

East Kilbride 20/05/2007 17:04:08

146---------

Simply put .....CHEERIO.

132

Joel,

Florida 20/05/2007 17:31:08

The only 'athletes' making the qualifying standard would be a very few swimmers, cyclists and bowlers unless they introduce pie eating and beer drinking events!

133

Publius,

London 20/05/2007 17:55:21

The debate about PFI and prisons seems to be missing the point. PFI isn't only about money. It is also about wresting control of the prison service from the screws and their unions. State-controlled prisons are awash with drugs and bullying. They mostly fail even to teach prisoners to read and write. And ex-cons simply come out of prison to reoffend. Alex has to show how he can keep old-style state-owned prisons without their old-style problems.

134

killiecrankie1689,

20/05/2007 17:58:47

146-somebody should put your lights out.orangeman.

135

Miss H,

20/05/2007 18:18:45

So building prisons using conventional procurement methods will cost £750 million over 20 years.

How much will it cost with PFI?

Probably 2 or 3 times that judging by past experience.

Of course we have not been allowed to know many of the details of PFI contracts because of 'commercial confidentiality'.

We have a different government in power now. Let's see if they open up the books on PFI - would make very interesting reading!!!

Labour must be squirming in case they do just that.

136

puskas,

East Kilbride 20/05/2007 19:33:25

150 Joel You are just being silly ..

Snp plan to scrap private jails ... Topic get it.. LOL

137

Joel,

Florida 20/05/2007 20:04:46

Trouble is puskas it's real difficult to take the SNP seriously. Many of their policies are a joke. Whether about the olympics or jails, the SNP are clueless and reactionary and will punish the Scottish economy. Did any of them ever run ANYTHING in their lives. No wonder they don't want to exercise the 3p tax raising power, because tax will have to go up way more than that. The Irish Tiger example is from another decade Alex!

138

killiecrankie1689,

20/05/2007 20:11:05

150 - i disagree.we"ve got an excellent candidate for the high jump-jock o"donnell

139

Auckland Arab,

20/05/2007 20:11:33

#59 Andra

Dundee - that well known centre of Capitalist thinking. Can I remind you of the recently opened Wembley when you start shouting off about privately built schemes - on time? in budget? Built by one of the biggest contractors in the world.

140

killiecrankie1689,

20/05/2007 20:14:59

150-we"ve also got lord watson,he can carry the olympic torch

141

Richard Lionheart,

20/05/2007 20:45:23

#146 Don't worry, the Greens will have the lights switched off long before the last person leaves.

142

Richard Lionheart,

20/05/2007 20:47:50

"Labour insiders ", the new Finance Shadow perhaps? or her deputy, who built a "flagship" rail station with no toilets and forgot that it needed trains to stop at it.

143

morris,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 20:56:32

Scotland could easily have a separate Olympic team,and the numbers reaching the Olympic qualifying standard would indeed be par for our 5 million population. Unlike some nations we do not participate in sport for an ego trip.WE wish to participate in nationhood with other nations. The probability of our winning a gold medal is not very likely,and we might not even get any.Thats what happens to most nations our size. In fact our swimmers were pretty good at the Commonwealth event considering our size and were giving the Australians something to think about. Nobody treats the Australians with disrespect in the swimming world! We are above the level of big is beautiful.
Go for it Scotland.
How many recall England's cricket team captained by Mike Deness (Scotsman) or Great Britain test speedway teams containing Charlie Monk Bluey Scott Ivan Mauger etc
It was hard to find any Brits good enough to be in the team!
Participation is what counts.We don't need success disproportionate to our size. Our true ability will do nicely.
157
I hope you dont tell the folks in Florida that you are a scot! WE dont want them thinking we are anything like you!

144

morris,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 21:07:36

143
I would like to agree with you Geoff but the truth is few journalists take a pro SNP line. a) we are ONLY a 5 million population country and b)we are a fledgling independence movement which has only just come of age. Selling copies is TIME magagzines first priority.As strength for independence grows, so will the editorial line of publications adapt accordingly.
At the moment support for the SNP is almost non existent,but increasing slowly. Im afraid you presume journalists are people who tell it as it is. No,they tell it as their editor says it is,and what he says is we sell copies of what people want to read.
If its truth they want tough!

145

morris,

Edinburgh 20/05/2007 21:10:10

166
You really must be desperate when you type that crap!"
Your credibility was never very high and now its just a joke

146

,

20/05/2007 21:10:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 639244, Article id was mapped to record!
147

Rebel,

South Carolina USA 20/05/2007 21:20:44

150 & 157
Give the Scots a break ! Thank God they are strong in character and not taken in by defeatist drivel, (such as yours).

148

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfropolis 20/05/2007 21:30:08

Re Prisons, excellent news. Too many weasels have been greased amongst an elite group of contracters by the opaque operation of the PFI system. Show me one school, hospital or prison, that has come in on budget, on time and has operated at no additional cost to the public purse. Where is the one successful PFI project to trump them all?

Re; A Scottish olympic team, why the hell not? Andy Murray wil be at his peak as a tennis player by 2012 surely he's got to be considered as a potential Scottish medal winner.

149

GD,

Glasgow 20/05/2007 21:38:03

What, no more backhanders? What's politics coming to?

150

mr chips,

20/05/2007 21:51:17

171. AM2, Glasgow / Pointing to the growing hostility to the Blair government, Reid warned, "many [Scots] will be disenfranchised unless from the Scottish Labour movement emerges a group that will give such people the possibility of voting Real Labour/Social Democrat/Democratic Socialist.... A new political grouping that gave expression to those sentiments and beliefs could poll well in the election and win seats."Jimmy reid.

151

getinnnn,

Scotland 20/05/2007 22:00:27

Yipeeeeee! It's high time Scotland had a team in the Olympics: It should never have been allowed for 4 Nations to form into one in the first place!That's cheating surely!.......As for private firms:They only look to the money they can make out of it- it's only natural: The SNP are taking the common sense approach: All in all-it is good to see the SNP are not scaredto "Grab the bull by the horns"

152

Le Drapeau Noir,

Gorgie Road 20/05/2007 22:07:34

AM2..Are you Gordon Brown??...no really are you Gordon Brown?...Adam Smith Institute.. I thought you could do better than that.Economically the UK is a busted flush..you know it and I know it.To pretend otherwise is folly in the extreme.
I really dont know what the economic landscape of Scotland is under the current administration as we've never been down this route before but I can tell you that over 50 years of Labour rule has all but strangled the life out of us as a nation(ref Prince Andrew Duke Of York).Oh and incidentally cut and paste is such a drag man!Christ almighty I wish we had had access to computers when I was at University.

153

killiecrankie1689,

edinburgh 20/05/2007 22:08:34

173-an ex 6 counties planter with an identity crises.keep going son-every day you convert more folks to the snp.

154

Faye,

Scotland 20/05/2007 22:31:49

Hurrah! This nonsense that private good public bad must stop. Good for Alex Salmond.

155

Chef,

20/05/2007 22:48:23

Read post 11

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=53&id=370792007

156

Royster,

21/05/2007 00:13:05

#119. The EPL is world class and the SPL isn't. It would be better if the SPL disbanded and the likes of Celtic and Rangers played in a British premier league so at least the players got a bit of a work out and the fans got better value. The SPL is going nowhere fast. Also, it would be good if some clubs could relocate to different EU countries. I quite liked the idea of Wimbledon moving to Dublin, a city crying out for a decent football club but prevented from having one because because of the Irish FA.

157

John Howard,

USA 21/05/2007 00:35:32

Although AM2 lauds the "American Experience" with for-profit pens, they have been a nightmare in the U.S. They have an escape ratio some 30 times higher than public prisons. Inmates are assaulted 65% more, and staff 49% more than in public prisons. They have never shown real savings, when compared on an apples-to-apples comparison. The for-profits substitute fast-food industry pay for living wages, they have 3 1/2 times the turnover of public prisons and they pay next to no benefits, a major factor in a country where every sixth person lacks health insurance. They have fostered corruption all over our country and many executives, lobbyists and legislators have had reunions in the prisons they've helped to build. Worst of all perhaps, they drive public policy to the end that more people are imprisoned for longer terms: More market and more market share for the profiteers. They are in no small part responsible for 2.3 million prisoners being in our jails and prisons.

The profiteers even produce bogus "research" to allegedly justify their existance and AM2 seems to have found some.

They are opposed by the majority of "mainline" religious denominations in the U.S. (i.e., Presbyterian, Episcopal, Catholic, Methodist, Unite Church of Christ, and older ones that fled persecution in England such as Friends and Mennonites) as being antithetical in a civilized society.

I would suggest accessing sources such as the Private Corrections Institute, www.privateci.org for substantiation of all these disturbing facts.

158

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

21/05/2007 10:36:41

Firstly prisons.. I heard an interesting talk from a US architect who had been asked by the private prison sector to create some new prisons to house the many criminals. The main driving force was that the buildings should destroy those who were within them as well as be cheap to build and run. IF you want to see what effects buildings can have on people look at some of the 60´s highrise estates and the inmates from the Big Brother House. After a while this architect refused to carry out any more such contracts believing it was wrong for people to profit from essentially setting out to destroy the minds of those they are allegedly trying to rehabilitate.

As for the costs of privatisation, one good example is the new rail structure in the UK. It now costs twice as much as it would have done under the old BR--- 6bn per year to line the pockets of the rich at our expense. I doubt Mr Soutar will complain though his company does rather well off the state.

159

camster,

glasgow 21/05/2007 11:54:54

Maybe Salmond would like to use Ireland as a great example of having its own Olympic team. In Athens is won 1 less medal than Sydney. That is it won nothing. Just back from working in China. This country is putting more money into the Olympics than even the whole of the UK can match. Why is it going to make us proud being a bunch of losers? And dont give me all this c**p about where's your optimism. Maybe I just dont live in never, never land.

160

John1,

Stirling 21/05/2007 14:40:55

185. John Howard
"They [profiteers - convenient, unproven word] are in no small part responsible for 2.3 million prisoners being in our jails and prisons."
I would have thought that the 2.3 million prisoners have most of the responsibility for being in prison. If they are in jail longer than those in the UK this could be because the necessary prisons are provided so that prison terms can be meaningful and the US government, unlike the UK one, does not ask judges to release offenders early because of shortage of space.

161

David C.,

Somewhere in the Midwest, USA 21/05/2007 20:37:09

Just a thought, if you have that many inmates, why not put them to work building the prisons? If they come in under budget, beat the deadline, and meet the specs, they get some time knocked off their sentence. We have a sheriff here that houses his prisoners in tents and are given the bare minimum allowed by the law. He has very, very few repeat offenders come thru his doors.
But I do agree, prisons and jails should be only in the hands of a lawful government, not a corporation and I applaud the SNP for taking a stance against privitization of detainment.

162

The Man Who Knows,

Perth 23/05/2007 21:39:41

184

Royster, you are talking rubbish. Unfortunately, Celtic and Rangers are going nowhere fast. We are stuck with them and their "supporters". The curse of Scottish football and the shame of Scotland.

163

LarryQ,

Aberdeen 24/05/2007 03:44:57

This is ideological clap trap. If it is cheaper to have prisons run by the private sector, all other things being equal, than the state then how can that be wrong? Why are so many Scots anti making a profit? Haven't we worked out yet that the alternatives to capitalism are bad for most people!


 

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