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Scottish Labour MPs least likely to revolt in Commons

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Published Date: 11 November 2007
By JENNY PERCIVAL
WESTMINSTER EDITOR
SCOTTISH Labour backbench MPs are much less likely to rebel against the Government than their English or Welsh counterparts, according to an independent study.
The research, by the Constitution Unit (CU) at University College London, says the "most significant factor" is that Scots MPs are unlikely to vote against their own Government on English-only laws because they face no external pressure from their constituents or local party.

Scottish MPs may therefore be helping to vote through unpopular English legislation that does not apply north of the Border, the CU says.

Scotland Office minister David Cairns rejected the charge, arguing that Scottish Labour MPs paid equal attention to Bills whether or not they affected only England.

CU researchers analysed data from almost 500 votes in the House of Commons between May 2005 and June 2007. This revealed that Scottish Labour backbenchers rebelled in an average of 1.8% of votes, compared to an average of 3.4% for their English counterparts and 1.9% among Welsh MPs.



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1

karin m,

11/11/2007 00:11:46

How is this "news". We already know that. We know labour both in the scottish parliament and westmisnter are the biggest bunch of yes men and women this world has ever seen. So again i say how is this news.

2

,

11/11/2007 00:31:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

Sanny,

Glasgow 11/11/2007 00:51:57

Even if all the Scottish Westminster MP's abstain from voting, the Labour Government still has a majority - I think it's about 36 but I am open to correction. It is more likely that Labour MP's would abstain rather than vote against the government. Would over 36 MP's abstain? I doubt it! Uppermost in their minds would be the possibility of the collapse of their government and an Election that would see a goodly number in the unemployed que.

The simple bottom line is that Scottish MP's of all colours have little if any effect on Westminster.

4

northerner,

England 11/11/2007 00:56:43

Wrong, Sanny. If Scottish MPs hadn't voted, the government would not have been able to impose top up fees and foundation hospitals onto England.
That's a fact.

5

A Better Way,

11/11/2007 00:58:52

Of course this article forgot to mention that the SNP MP's are not rude and openly refuse to vote on issues that affect the remaining countries of these islands. Gordon Broon is the leader of a Government that has an unelected leader and not one original idea of their own. Their Government is run on the same basis as the Edinburgh Council was. Lie and Lie to hide the debt and mismanagement of their charge. Except in the London case, where the consequences are huge for every man woman and child in our Country of Scotland.

This whole discussion is a complete waste of space and time as long as we have a London Government that continues to interfere politically with Scotland through their Sub Branch Offices here in Scotland by appointing their leader here in our country. We have Wendy the Mouth of the South accepting donations for her challenge for the Sub Branch Office here in Scotland that are all below the thousand pound disclosure limit, with many coming in exactly five pounds below the limit. Strange goings on when one considers that she was elected unopposed.

More shenanigans from the London Controlled New Lying Party indeed.

6

Grant,

Scotland 11/11/2007 01:10:04

#4 Not on Foundation hospitals they wouldn't have:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/cgi-bin/newhtml_hl?...
extended to Scotland

Sanny is essentially right though. England has a Labour majority (in seats) of about 43 - roughly the same as Margaret Thatcher's majority when she formed a government in May 1979.

As far as I can see it, the only (admittedly controversial) piece of legislation that Scottish MPs made a contribution to - was on top up fees. HOWEVER, the Higher Education Bill that introduced those fees also contained within it - many clauses which directly affected Scotland - something like one third of the clauses in that bill directly


The WLQ is essentially a myth - one one of the twin myths of English nationalism - the other being the "English taxpayers" argument.

The very basic premise of the WLQ states that English MPs cannot vote on devolved Scottish issues. That is not true - they do frequently and regularly. The use of the Sewell convention ensured that many devolved issues (health, education, justice) have been decided at pan-UK level since 1999.

And btw, I'm not a Labour supporter, and I support Scottish independence, so am not trying give credence to Scottish Labour and Unionist MPs.

7

Grant,

Scotland 11/11/2007 01:13:30

Some of that got chopped off, but the Higher Education Bill (which provided for top up fees in England AND Wales and Northern Ireland) also contained provisions which directly extended to Scotland - something like a quarter to a third of the provisions of that bill extended to Scotland and impacted upon devolved or reserved policy in Scotland- Section 53 Extent - shows these sections on the Higher Education Act 2004

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2004/ukpga_20040008_en_6#...

8

Dunnie,

Canada 11/11/2007 02:15:13

Hey karinm!

9

SGreen,

Texas, USA 11/11/2007 02:48:31

Can you take initiation to pull down Gerald Warner's piece from Opinion section if Scotland Sunday believes in justice and tolerance more than racist, intolerant, colonialist freedom of speech?

10

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 11/11/2007 04:29:13

If you vote for Labour, especially a Scottish labour MP, your going to get the three PPP!! That is Pi** Poor Performance, as long as my salary is coming in, and you, dear Tax payer, do,nt matter!

11

An Beal Bacht,

Travelling in Nihlon 11/11/2007 04:46:35

I must admit that I view this story as irrelevant.

12

An Beal Bacht,

Travelling in Nihlon 11/11/2007 04:51:26

Don't let a political party do the talking for you. Got up off your knees and make your voice heard. What do you want the future to look like. No compromises. No prisoners!

13

An Beal Bacht,

Travelling in Nihlon 11/11/2007 04:54:06

I'm listening to Joni Mitchel - Shine - From Shine - Rock On!

14

Willie Macleod,

Wick 11/11/2007 05:13:44

#14 Hissing of Summer Lawns is better album

15

An Beal Bacht,

Travelling in Nihlon 11/11/2007 06:09:46

Aaaach!

16

An Beal Bacht,

Travelling in Nihlon 11/11/2007 06:12:10

Now listening to Kate Bush - How To Be Invisible - From - Aerial

17

Hugo, Ayrshire,

11/11/2007 06:51:29

#7. Grant, Scotland

" . . the Higher Education Bill (which provided for top up fees in England AND Wales and Northern Ireland) also contained provisions which directly extended to Scotland . ."

So this is not 'England only' legislation! Many thanks for this information.

The Westminster parliament needs to be split into an English parliament for devolved matters and a Union parliament for non-devolved matters.

18

The Bruce2,

Edinburgh 11/11/2007 07:10:59

19

No Westminster belongs as an English parliament full stop. Its time to seperate completely actually its way past time.

19

donald,

weegieland 11/11/2007 08:09:34

If all the Scottish MPs united they still could not outvote the English MPs in an English Parliament.

20

BIG EYE,

PAISLEY 11/11/2007 08:35:51

Once a patsy always a patsy!

21

BIG EYE,

PAISLEY 11/11/2007 08:39:32

FACT

If all the Mp's from Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland voted one way and the English voted the other, or if even half the English abstained ENGLAND would still win out every time.

Nothing wrong with that as it is based on population but nobody should pretend that Scotland has any chance on any issue if English priorities do not coincide.

Any doubts...ask our fishermen!

22

The Bruce2,

Edinburgh 11/11/2007 09:06:42

21

Dont make me laugh there are 646 seats in Westminster and only 59 are Scottish and its supposed to be a union of equals.

23

Colin B,

Bearsden 11/11/2007 09:44:55

No surprise as many Labour MPS and MSPs for that matter are brainwashed working class types with no thought process of their own and had little or no career prior to entering Parliament.
Tam Dalyell was the only one with any ability to think for himself. Irene Adams in Paisley was one of the worst.

24

Gregor Addison,

Scotland 11/11/2007 11:06:00

Aye, donkeys led by other donkeys...

25

Homo Sapiens,

11/11/2007 11:40:47

No wonder that Labour opposes Independence for Scotland, it is Scottish Labour MPs that keep Labour in power by delivering 54 automatic votes to the Labour Government, and have done so since WWII. If it were not for the Scottish Labour MPs, the past 11 years would have looked very different, and very doubtful that Labour would have been returned to power in the UK in 2005!

26

TerryH,

England 11/11/2007 12:00:18

#7 Grant and #19 Hugo

This is nothing new. When the Lord’s powers were taken away on financial matters it was a common trick to attach other legislation to a finance bill so the Lords couldn’t interfere.

Some of the bill pertained to matters in Scotland, but this was not created by god, it was a bunch of NuLabourites who knew exactly what they were doing.

Scots MPs could vote on it with a clear conscience, and as a direct result the English are saddled with what I believe to be the most shameful piece of Government policy I can think of.

27

TerryH,

England 11/11/2007 12:12:43

#23 Big Eye

MPs don’t vote on national lines, they vote on party lines. They can rebel, but it is a very dangerous thing to do because the party may apply pressure for them not to be reselected. Some have high noble morals (I’m sure there must be some) who oppose the Government because they place their constituents above their career.

Scots MPs are in the fortunate position of not being accountable to any constituents, English or Scottish in matters pertaining to Health, Education, Housing, Sport and Arts, Agriculture, Forestry & Fishing, Emergency Services, Planning, Social Work, Heritage, Transport and Tourism.

Some England MPs did vote against the Government, but not in numbers strong enough to outvote the unaccountable 23% of the Commons. As a result England has Foundation Hospitals and Tuition Fees. This is a scandal!

You also need to account for executive powers, where unaccountable Ministers decide the English should not have the same rights as the Scots (eg Darling and Sunday shopping: Falconer and an EP). And the fact that the agenda is controlled by a cabinet (and unelected PM) who were not elected by the people their legislation affects.

28

TerryH,

England 11/11/2007 12:18:37

#27 Homo Sapien. You’re right, the way power has been devolved, financial figures have been obfuscated, Scotland and Wales denied a real Parliament and England denied any kind of Parliament has everything to do with what Labour needs to survive.

It has sweet FA to do with what the people want.

29

Lauwrie,

11/11/2007 13:09:42

Until 1998 , all MP's from wherever in the UK had equal legitimacy throughout he UK . This was the basic fact and assumption of the UK parliament .

Since 1998 Scotland has had her own parliament , a fact which invalidated any further input of MP's with Scottish constituencies from having any further legitimate democratic input into England .

Leaving aside the fact that those same Scottish MP's voted almost unanimously for a Scottish national parliament but at the same time denied the English a comparable parliament and government

( a clearcut act of nationalist discrimination completely contray to the UN charter and their own propaganda , to which , in due course they will have to be held to account )

there is no doubt that , regardless of whether they be good , bad or indifferent in their capabilities , well or badly disposed to England , revolting or not

THEY HAVE NO FURTHER BUSINESS IN THE GOVERNANCE OF ENGLAND

and should keep their grasping , interfering noses out .

30

wattie>x 1,

11/11/2007 14:17:03

REVOLT?

Never; as long as they are allowed to continue with the
plundering of the "gravy train"!

These parcel of legalised rogues know what side their bread is buttered on.

31

Sanny,

Now wintering in Portugal 11/11/2007 14:35:51

4. northerner, England
Following on Grants destruction of your claim may I just say that “Facts are chiels that dinnae ding” so where are your facts to support your argument?

Ignoring NI; Each country has votes as follows England 529;Wales 40 Scotland 72 giving a total of 641. The English and Welsh Labour party command 363 votes giving them and overall majority of 85. Add to this that the SNP will not vote on any matter that does not directly affect Scotland, the Labour’s majority is effectively increased to 91. So even if all 56 Scottish Labour MP’s voted against they still couldn’t overturn the inbuilt Labour Majority. Look elsewhere for your scapegoat.

It is pleasing to see Grant, that there are still Scottish Labour supporters who remember that a founding principle of the Scottish Labour Party was Home Rule for Scotland. It also give lie to the perceived wisdom that everyone who supports Independence is a member of, or votes for, the SNP.

If English voters do not like this government the answers lie in their own hands. Will the Electorate in the south please remember that Scotland has never voted for a Tory government but English votes saddled us with a Tory government that all but destroyed our country and made us pay for the privilege! We have had 300 years of being subject to rule by others with NO say in Westminster; now the balance has very slightly shifted the other way you complain.

31. Lauwrie:
I note you make reference to the UN and National discrimination. But! Are you you aware that it was this body and the Council of Europe that ORDERED T. Blair to give greater autonomy to the Scots under pain of Sanctions? Devolution was the minimum they could get away with and the referendum, that was not required, but introduced in the vain hope that we might vote against. This might explain why they won’t agree to a referendum on full independence despite the propaganda that we would be against it.

32

An Beal Bacht,

Travelling in Nihlon 11/11/2007 15:28:44

Trident!

33

TerryH,

Working on the US west coast at the mo' 11/11/2007 15:52:00

#33 Sanny you are absolutely right about backing up argument with facts, but I can’t see where you’ve taken your own advice.

Northerner #4 is right about Top Up Fees (1) and Foundation Hospitals (2). Grant used figures that employed a slight of hand where English and Welsh votes were lumped together. The Government would have lost the first vote by one vote and the second vote by 17 votes (3).

Where did you get your number of MPs from?

The figures I have (4) show Labour having an England only majority of 63 (Lab 286 Opp 243). This is a workable majority, but it becomes a hell of a lot more workable if you add 69 MPs who always vote with the Government on English matters.

If you consider the popular vote in England went to the tories, if gives lie to your claim that the answer is in our hands. I’m sure it will be very soon though.

Also, are you saying that we should put up with second class citizen ship to compensate Scotland being in that position for 300 years? If so, I can assure you that I’m not going to put up with it for five minutes longer than I have to…I’m surprised you’ve all waited so long, we wouldn’t have.

1 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3434329.stm
2 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3054562.stm
3 http://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/monrep/centre/cent...
4 http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/ge05/seats.htm

34

TerryH,

Working on the US west coast at the mo' 11/11/2007 15:54:35

Scunnert

Gulf War!

35

Lauwrie,

11/11/2007 16:21:04

Sanny 33 says
"31. Lauwrie:
I note you make reference to the UN and National discrimination. But! Are you you aware that it was this body and the Council of Europe that ORDERED T. Blair to give greater autonomy to the Scots under pain of Sanctions? Devolution was the minimum they could get away with and the referendum, that was not required, but introduced in the vain hope that we might vote against"

No , not aware - perhaps you could provide further info - or is it total twaddle ?

36

Grant,

Scotland 11/11/2007 17:05:42

#35 I employed no slight of hand, Terry, simply because the entirety of the act - including foundation trusts extended to England and Wales:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2003/ukpga_20030043_en_15...

Indeed I now even see from the territorial extent of the legislation that certain sections and parts (like the Higher Education Act) extended to Scotland as well! Health and community care are devolved issues to the Scottish Parliament - yet English MPs were voting on those devolved issues, as part of this legislation, which only reiterates the myth of the WLQ.

So, essentially this , like the Higher Education Act of 2004, was no English only law - or English only bill - not by any margin.

37

Ken Mac,

Glasgow 11/11/2007 18:08:16

27. Homo Sapiens ' No wonder that Labour opposes Independence for Scotland, it is Scottish Labour MPs that keep Labour in power by delivering 54 automatic votes to the Labour Government, and have done so since WWII. If it were not for the Scottish Labour MPs, the past 11 years would have looked very different, and very doubtful that Labour would have been returned to power in the UK in 2005!'

Bollocks son. First off Labour only has 41 seats in Scotland (they've got more in London). No doubt about Labour being returned to power in 2005. They won the election in Scotland,England and Wales individually. Try some simple arithmetic before spouting this nonsense.

38

TerryH,

Working on the US west coast at the mo' 11/11/2007 18:32:08

Grant, I didn’t say you used slight of hand but the figures you quoted (Prentice) were. She chose her words very carefully by referring to the Act and not “Foundation Hospitals” the slippery eel. If you look at 1.4 of the Constitutional Unit’s report (1) it says that the legislation does not apply in Scotland or Wales and the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly had explicitly rejected them.

I’ve read your reference (or rather scanned, skipped and searched) and the part dealing with Foundation Hospitals is the First Part of the Bill and it only applies to England. i.e. “An NHS foundation trust is a public benefit corporation which is authorised under this Part to provide goods and services for the purposes of the health service in England.”

Wales is not mentioned in this section although they did tag measures onto this Bill that do apply to Wales as your reference correctly stated.

However, do not be fooled by what this Government is doing here, this is nothing new. When the Lord’s powers were taken away on financial matters at the turn of the last century it was a common trick to attach other legislation to a finance bill so the Lords couldn’t interfere. That’s what happened here, fudging the lines… but we’re the ones with Foundation Hospitals and the Scots and Welsh aren’t.

You could argue that all spending in England affects Scotland via the Barnett formula (as the speaker after Prentice in your ref stated), so all legislation can never be exclusively English…despite the fact it will only have a direct impact upon England.

I’d say the argument is spurious though because I agree with Barnett himself, i.e. it needs reforming too.

1 http://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/monrep/centre/cent...

39

dixon,

11/11/2007 21:14:07

I often wonder which of the Scottish Labour MPs is the most odious.Is it David Cairns?,Eric Joyce?,Tom Harris? It's a tough choice. Then i remember the unveiling of Thatcher's statue at Westminster and who was swanning around joking and laughing with Norman Tebbit &co.None other than Michael Martin,Speaker of the House.The man is a pompous balloon and a disgrace to Springburn.

40

Dave M,

11/11/2007 22:17:07

42 Dixon

Eric Joyce.

41

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 30/12/2007 20:28:27
Well of course Scottish MPs at Westminster are less likely to revolt, because the legislation in most cases doesn't apply to their own constituents! This is because the corresponding responsibilities have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament! This is the very essence of the West Lothian Question and what Tam Dalyell was banging on about for the last 30 years! Scottish Labour MPs are not accountable and have power without responsibility. If their voting actions did affect their own constituents, and they were likely to lose votes and their seats, then maybe they would be less compliant with the instructions of party whips
42

A Better Way,

Westminster 13/01/2008 09:36:59
Well if thats the case why are they getting paid full wages and unbelievable expenses for very little work compared to what they had before. Oh thats right they have their snouts in the trough. Labour Corruption.

 

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