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Iain Gray: SNP must grow up and seek solutions not scapegoats

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Published Date: 26 April 2009
WHAT is clearer than ever after last week's Budget is it is time for Alex Salmond to stand up and be counted as First Minister.
It is not so much that Alex Salmond has been posted missing during the economic crisis as he has been guilty of carping from the sidelines. As Benjamin Franklin said: "Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain and most fools do." The SNP have to
grow up as a party, accept the responsibility that comes with government and start playing their part in getting Scotland through the recession.

They cannot be allowed to continue to behave like opposition politicians, forever seeking scapegoats not solutions, with their claim of "£500m cuts" from Westminster now the excuse for every failure on their part.

To claim victim status at a time like this for Scotland is ridiculous. The UK Government acted with speed and determination to reduce the effects of this global economic crisis in Scotland. Labour invested £50bn to save our major banks otherwise the Scottish economy would have been destroyed. This was an amount greater than the total annual Scottish budget – the equivalent of £10,000 for every man, woman and child in Scotland.

Scotland also benefited from the fiscal stimulus package initiated in November – to the tune of £2bn. It is ridiculous to think Scotland should not play its part in rebalancing the budget at a time like this.

Last week's Budget was a tough one, to no one's surprise. But the Scottish Government's cries of "apocalypse now" do not bear examination. The Holyrood budget has increased year on year, every year, since the introduction of devolution. Next year will be no different. The SNP will have more than double the amount to spend that Donald Dewar had in 1999.

The budget will increase next year both in cash and real terms with £700m more to spend. Alex Salmond can try and fiddle the figures as much as he likes but the facts are the Scottish budget will increase by £2.2bn over the next two years. Despite these difficult times there will be a real-terms increase next year.

The SNP have gone to extraordinary lengths to hide this fact. If they put as much effort into governing as they do spinning the figures, we might be further forward in getting out of the recession.

The budget also included nearly £400m of extra spending in Scotland through UK departments, and an additional £100m of Barnett consequentials as a result of increased spending for departments devolved to Holyrood. There was support too, potentially hundreds of millions of pounds for Scotland's oil and gas industry and renewable energy projects. The SNP showed no interest in this, presumably because they cannot channel it into headline grabbing ministerial announcements of their own.

Of course the Scottish Government is being asked to make government more efficient – to the tune of £367m in 2010/11. But they have always claimed they are good at efficient government.

These recommendations are not about cutting front-line services. Labour at Westminster have promised to safeguard frontline services and budget increases in health of 5% and, in education 4%. The First Minister must make the same promise for Scotland.

The SNP should drop their plans for a referendum now. No-one but the Nationalists want such a distraction when everyone's efforts should be focused on recovery.

This would save £5.5m. The Scottish Futures Trust has been an abject failure costing £25m yet not one new school or hospital built under it. Dropping it now would save £23m, and allow stalled projects to finally go ahead.

Another immediate saving would be to wind up the SNP's National Conversation which is now a national joke at the taxpayer's expense.

The First Minister has to take responsibility that comes with the title and get on with the job. With every passing day it becomes clearer that he simply does not have what it takes.





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1

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25/04/2009 21:24:21
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25/04/2009 21:51:51
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RufusT-Firefly,

25/04/2009 23:16:48
Iain Gray is spot on as always.

Scrap SFT, the National Conversation (Tee Hee) and the doomed to failure Independence Referendum and there we have nearly £30 million pounds saved straight away (or £30 million Euros if you live in Traquir's fantasy
world).

Add in money wasted on;

* Homecoming Adverts shown on Scottish Television

* Christine Grahame's AC/DC We Salute You Motion

* Donations to the Scottish Islamic Foundation

* MyGaelic.Com

* BBC Alba

* Jollys to China, America, the Ryder Cup and Barcelona v Real Madrid Football Matches

* Sandi Thom's Breakfasts

* Mobile Phones for SNP advisors.

* Pinstripe suits for the SNP Front Bench in an attempt to make Salmond's suit make him look a little less spiv like.

* Christine Grahame's Stamp Bill.

* Painting Trains Blue and White.

Salmond should stop bleating about the £500 million cuts as he could easily save more than that by addressing the above.
4

Astonished,

26/04/2009 00:10:48
Desperate stuff - Gray must know the games up !




Thanks for your usual guff dufus. I would suggest 'son of trident' should be the first budget casualty. And how about cutting down on labour MP's expense claims ?

5

Vivas,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 00:11:03
Sorry to butt-in, but who's Iain Gray ?
6

TheUnionisBritish,

26/04/2009 00:13:49
Wouldn't we save a hell of a lot of money by not replacing Trident, get rid of these ID cards and tell Mr Joyce of Falkirk West that he could slash his expenses claims?
7

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 00:15:26
#4 Getting rid of Trident would cost 11,000 jobs.

Vote Snp, vote for a bigger dole queue.
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26/04/2009 00:32:17
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26/04/2009 00:33:00
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Andrew Horton,

26/04/2009 00:35:11
#5 Vivas - The only person in Scotland capable of being a less popular politician than Wendy.


#7 Wufus

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate how many (a) direct and (b) indirect civilian jobs in (i) Scotland and (ii) the rest of the UK rely upon the Trident programme.

Mr. Hoon: The number of civilian jobs which directly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 936 in Scotland, with an additional 6,640 in the rest of the United Kingdom. The number of civilian jobs which indirectly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 300 in Scotland and 5,700 for the rest of the UK.
11

TheUnionisBritish,

26/04/2009 00:35:33
7 - never said getting rid - just don't replace. As a fellow Unionist I sometime dispair at mentality of some who inhabited this site 24/7 like yourself.
12

ratzo,

26/04/2009 00:43:23
Iain Gray won't be leader of UK-Labour-in-Scotland for much longer according to the latest poll:

"Public support for the SNP is soaring on the eve of the second anniversary of the Party's rise to power in Scotland.

On "best First Minister" rating, the SNP's Alex Salmond wins by 36% to 7% against Labour's Iain Gray, who was outpolled by the Tories' Annabel Goldie on 10%. The SNP leader is even more popular among Labour voters than Mr Gray, the findings suggest."
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26/04/2009 00:44:12
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26/04/2009 00:44:57
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Edward,

26/04/2009 00:46:08
'Labour invested £50bn to save our major banks otherwise the Scottish economy would have been destroyed. This was an amount greater than the total annual Scottish budget'
Why does Gray and the rest of the New Labour muppets keep harping on about 'annual Scottish Budget' when talking about how much of TAXPAYERS money went into UK Banks
That is including Scottish TAXPAYERS. They use this arguement against Independence, but the media fail to actually question this statement. Especially as an INDEPENDENT Scotland would not have the scraps from Westminster which come in the form of the budget. An Indpendent Scotland would have access to its own revenue including control over its Oil and Gas Revenues
Labour are a joke, Gray is an even bigger joke
16

Edward,

26/04/2009 00:54:13
I think Iain Gray really needs a reality check and realise, if he hasnt already that the time is well and trully up on Labour and on the Union with England!
I actually feel sorry for him, as I think he is trying to do a good job, but he is clearly out of his depth as is the rest of the Labour MSP's in Holyrood. They are fed a continious diet of lies and miss information from London Labour, they are hogg tied by control freak Brown. To make matters worse Iain Gray has now got to compete with Jim Murphy for media attention
The bottom line is of course is that Labour, wether in Westminster or Holyrood are only looking out for one thing and thats Labour. Scotland has become a vehicle for there own survival
17

Brianwci,

26/04/2009 00:54:27
Would someone please take Iain Gray aside and explain the approval ratings to him. He has 7 SEVEN per cent which is even LESS than the Tories on 10.

Salmond has more then twice as many approval points as Goldie, Gray and Scott put together.

In other words, if weekly attacks on the SNP, Government policies and Salmond himself = 7% then clearly he needs to change tack.

People want to know what YOU and your team are going to do Iain not what Salmond is doing 'wrong' when clearly the majority think he is doing well.

They also want to see YOU stick up for SCOTLAND not London.
18

ratzo,

26/04/2009 00:56:37
More Labour sleaze and corruption:

"The Government will have to pay £10bn a year to companies under the much-criticised Private Finance Initiative (PFI), according to new estimates buried in last week's Budget. Unions, which largely view the PFI as a form of privatisation, were infuriated by the increases."

"TWO Labour peers at the centre of the lords for hire scandal have been found guilty of misconduct by a sleaze inquiry and face suspension from parliament, according to senior House of Lords sources."
19

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 26/04/2009 00:57:02
Iain Gray - yawn, an irrelevence
20

Brianwci,

26/04/2009 01:01:10
#10 Andrew Horton: This is first class information Andrew. Thanks. Summing up, the vast majority of jobs lost by cancelling Trident are in ENGLAND. Now there's a surprise. Less than 1000 in Scotland. More unionist direct lies.


Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will estimate how many (a) direct and (b) indirect civilian jobs in (i) Scotland and (ii) the rest of the UK rely upon the Trident programme.

Mr. Hoon: The number of civilian jobs which directly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 936 in Scotland, with an additional 6,640 in the rest of the United Kingdom. The number of civilian jobs which indirectly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 300 in Scotland and 5,700 for the rest of the UK.
21

For Scotlands Future,

26/04/2009 01:02:12
Ian Gray:".... has been guilty of carping from the sidelines"

Yes, I understand that Maggie Brown and his Darling were in daily, if not hourly contact with Gray, consulting with him over how to manage the economy.

"Another immediate saving would be to wind up the Calman Commission which is now a national joke at the taxpayer's expense".

Tell me Mr Gray, how much has been spent on Calman, on expenses for the anti-SNP participants, on a conclusion that we all know is coming. Namely that the Scottish Government must not be allowed to prevent Nuclear Power station being built in Scotland.

Mr Gray, you would not warrant a line printed in a national newspaper were it not that the newspaper is a Labour Party mouthpiece.
22

kirk 1,

26/04/2009 01:05:36
It took 10 years to upgrade the present site so it could house the subs that carry trident.
That's the timescale required to prepare a new base in England or Wales.
Should Scotland become independent, these monsters aint sailing down the Clyde overnight.
23

Edward,

26/04/2009 01:07:36
See no sign of the story covered in the Sunday Times about two Labour peers found guilty.
'Two Labour peers at the centre of the lords for hire scandal have been found guilty of misconduct by a sleaze inquiry and face suspension from parliament, according to senior House of Lords sources.
Senior peers have concluded that Lord Taylor of Blackburn and Lord Truscott have broken the code of conduct of members of the upper house'

24

SilverShred,

in the jamjar 26/04/2009 01:08:17
#10 and #21

hahaha! Perhaps Iain Gray should chide Dufus about his ability with numbers?
25

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 26/04/2009 01:11:20
Hey, WUFUS

You forgot the £500m wasted on the Trams.
OOPS - sorry, it was Ian Gray who voted FOR that and Sir Ek who voted AGAINST it.

Come on now Wufus - have a guess as to whether Ian Gray voted for or against the PFI/PPP projects that are going to cost our grandchildren BILLIONS.
26

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 01:14:05
Any fools can criticize, carp and complain and Labour fools do nothing but. Labour promised us the SNP would lead us to a £5000 tax bill. Instead, we have £500m cuts under New Labour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omPGKfOoTok

Iain Gray's argument is that the UK is dying the death of a thousand cuts, so Scotland should bleed to death too. After all, it's only fair. But if you support Labour, try and remember why you support Labour. Is Iain Gray's vision of shared cuts the goal you long supported? Is this where you thought the New Labour project would take you?

Iain Gray will excuse any crippling losses burdened on the tax payer. He's a party hack. All Iain Gray cares for is Labour. He long ago stopped caring for the working people. This is a party who are so fare removed from the realities of everyday working life that they have forgotten what it means to be a 'socialist' party. This man is a tool of the New Labour machine. Whatever his connections to the Unions, it has nothing to do with the reality that most of us face.
27

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 26/04/2009 01:16:10
Get used to "carping from the sidelines" Mr Gray, for that is where you are destined to spend the rest of your political lifetime.
28

Edward,

26/04/2009 01:16:37
or how about yet more sleaze:
'Labour has been plunged into a fresh storm after a leaked email suggested that Olympics Minister Tessa Jowell promised money from the 2012 Games in exchange for the selection of a family friend as a General Election candidate.
Miss Jowell stands accused of trying to 'bribe' a private meeting in the Erith and Thamesmead constituency by telling party members that if they selected Georgia Gould as their candidate, the area would be in a good position to benefit from the £9billion Olympics budget, which Miss Jowell controls'
29

Edward,

26/04/2009 01:25:29
From the Sunday Herald :
'THE SNP government is to be told by the country's most respected economic think-tank this week that ministers will have to face up to scrapping some cherished policies because of spending cuts imposed by the Westminster Budget'
Wait a minute I thought Maths teacher Iain Gray stated that in 'real terms' Scotland would be getting more money...hmmm Appears to be yet another Labour Lie!
Thanks Labour, appears the Scottish Government have been correct all along

30

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 01:36:31
#30

Iain Gray is saying that Scotland is better off under New Labour. Better off under cuts, better off under years of taxation, better off by making our sacrifice to the UK enterprise. New Labour have made an complete (insert as appropriate) of the UK economy and it's only fair that Scotland pays it's share. After all, being part of the UK means being in it together. So swallow hard, bite your lip, and suffer knowing that you're doing your bit for New Labour.
31

donald,

glasgow 26/04/2009 01:47:42
The man's a mental defective.
32

Don Roberto,

26/04/2009 01:52:50
Ian Gray Mr 7%.

"The SNP should drop their plans for a referendum now. No-one but the Nationalists want such a distraction when everyone's efforts should be focused on recovery."

What effort is Ian Gray focussing on recovery?
33

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 02:10:53
#7 Rufus,

I'd love a breakdown of those 11, 000 jobs. Where will they be lost? As far as I'm aware there have been a great deal of redundancies over the last few years under New Labour. Please feel free to explain.
34

Unelectedbythepeople,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 02:31:11
It is clear that theunionisbritish and rufus are Labour spoilers however the good news is that Guido Fawkes has a treasure trove of email links from the recent fall out and this will be published soon. There is a whole stack of Labour spoilers in Scotland who not only write to newspapers to try and steer the subjects but have also been calling radio phone ins.

I suspect they might be running for cover soon though when the links are published. Thank god for the internet.

35

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 26/04/2009 02:55:39
first! who will speak for iain gray when mr murphy loses his job in 12 months? second! a challange to rufus the dufus! state now! that you have nothing to do with the labour party and you recieve no wage from the public purse? as for attacking alex salmond? at least the SNP don't have to pick up a phone and ask what they have to say and do! mr gray grow a pair, and your standing might go up! and if you are reading this mr gray? why does a nation of 5 million need with local council, regional council, holyrood, scottish office, westminster & brussels to run it's affairs? and do something ablout getting the gates locked on preston tower at night! and reduce the prices in the prestonpans social club! i will be watching a very close east lothian constituant!
36

Castaway™ ,

26/04/2009 04:46:12
#7 Rufus
Report Commissioned by the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and the Scottish Trades Union Congress
CANCELLING TRIDENT THE ECONOMIC AND EMPLOYMENT
CONSEQUENCES FOR SCOTLAND

The number of civilian jobs which directly rely upon the Trident programme is estimated to be 936 in Scotland.Geoff Hoon - 21 February 2005

Civilian personnel. Katy Clark MP asked the Secretary of State how many civilian personnel were employed at Faslane and Coulport. In reply Adam Ingram MP said that there were a total of 1,750 MoD civilians. 1,080 of these were at Faslane and 670 at Coulport. He said that in addition Babcock Naval Services employed around 1,430 across both sites. Combining these figures gives a total civilian workforce of 3,180

The number of potential Scottish job openings at risk, civilian and military, direct, indirect and induced, from Trident cancellation in 2022-2027 is estimated as 2,191.The number of civilian jobs would be 1,891.

Trident indirect and induced civilian employment across Scotland would be less than 1800.
11 Mar 2007 :::: http://tinyurl.com/d8m528
37

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 26/04/2009 04:47:28
Scotland facing £500 million cuts,Scotland's budget is increasing,someone is telling lies.
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26/04/2009 05:01:57
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Mercutio,

FALKIRK 26/04/2009 05:39:35
The Labour Party lied in their Manifesto by saying that they would not raise income tax. The SNP lied in their manifesto saying they would scrap the council tax,ergo all politicians lie.
Any government which breaks an election promise should be forced to resign.
40

redcliffe62,

26/04/2009 05:51:25
is the leader of the labourty party msp's merely a puppet who repeats whatever he is told from westminster, or does he have his own opinions, which might benefit scotland.
the lack of differentiation between london and gray suggests the poodle has been to the parlour and is happy at the result.
i would respect gray more if he explained that being scottish he did not necessarily agree with everything that wastemonster suggested, and where he felt strongly he would show that he has a different opinion.
of course there is no different opinion. he is a puppet. kim il jung brown is the great leader and no dissent allowed.
what does gray think on trident? do we know?. his fellow msp's and the majority of holyrood parliament as a whole was against it, so is he?
has he got the GUTS to show he has a different view? on anything? to that of brown and darling.
spud is a puppet, we know that, but gray had the chance to avoid being a gordy clone and so far he has done diddly squat.
with gordy's brother sitting on a board and wanting nuclear power in scotland then what is gray's position on that as of today?
show some cojones and instead of regurgitating a labour press release in the form of the drivel written above you might earn some respect.
41

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 26/04/2009 05:51:33
42 mercutio? if you have 10 people at a meeting and they vote on an issue? 6 vote against and 4 vote for? who wins? welcome to the world of an minority goverment! remember in the next general election to vote for the party that will stand up for scotland! not compromise position for another country's needs!
and yes all politicans must be watched! but i'd rather watch mine from my own house than from their second home in london!
42

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 26/04/2009 06:11:16
#44 The SNP must have known what the Holyrood arithmetic would be when they made this cynical promise, inducing many myself included to vote for them.
Please spare me the electoral advice and the patronising propaganda.
43

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 06:15:09
45 Mercutio

How would the SNP have known about this prior to May 2007?

From The Sunday Herald

“The Centre for Public Policy for Regions at Glasgow University has calculated the worst spending squeeze in decades will cut Scotland's funding by more than £6 billion by 2013-14. That means spending will fall 2%-3% each year in real terms, against an average 6% annual rise enjoyed by the previous Labour-Liberal Democrat administration.”
44

steve 1511,

aberdeen 26/04/2009 06:32:15
ian gray(elmer fudd)is as much use to scotland as a chocolate teapot,alex salmon and the snp work for the people of scotland,ian gray works for his masters at westminster the lybour sleaze and corruption party led by the gibbering eejit broon.
there will be no boom under broon were doomed with broon
45

smokey joe 1,

26/04/2009 06:35:34
Iain Gray,take a long hard look at yourself.
Seriously do you think you come across as someone who the voters can trust.
As this video shows,you come across as a complete joke.
We will be taking no lessons from the likes of you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04AQe5AXxnU

Pathetic.


46

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 07:07:48
The way things are going with Comrade Broon, Comrade Gray would be better saying nothing and keep his heed below the parapet.

But as he's a prize dumpling, he won't!!
47

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 26/04/2009 07:16:31
"The SNP have to grow up as a party, accept the responsibility that comes with government and start playing their part in getting Scotland through the recession"

This is a fatuous criticism of the Scottish Government. Gray lists a number of things on which the goverrnment ought NOT to be spending money, and he may be right. However, these are mere spending decisions, not matters of economic policy.

As far as getting Scotland through the recession is concerned, Gray must know perfectly well that there is nothing useful that the Scottish Governmentcan do. The UK government, not the Scottish Government, exercises control over Scotland's economy and its economic policy.

If Iain Gray thinks there are things that the Scottish Government could do (as opposed to NOT do), which they are not currently doing, then he should identify them.
48

Marian,

26/04/2009 07:32:23
The Sunday Herald carries the following story today http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2504328.0.0.php

QUOTE "THE SNP government is to be told by the country's most respected economic think-tank this week that ministers will have to face up to scrapping some cherished policies because of spending cuts imposed by the Westminster Budget.

Flagship legislation under threat includes the freeze on council tax, the axing of bridge tolls, cutting prescription charges and free higher education. Universal free personal care for the elderly could also be affected.

The Centre for Public Policy for Regions at Glasgow University has calculated the worst spending squeeze in decades will cut Scotland's funding by more than £6 billion by 2013-14. That means spending will fall 2%-3% each year in real terms, against an average 6% annual rise enjoyed by the previous Labour-Liberal Democrat administration.

The CPPR will lay out its analysis to Holyrood's finance committee on Tuesday. A key message will be that ministers may be forced scrap policies devised for less austere times.

The government will also be told that it may also have to consider public sector pay freezes, axing some large building and transport projects, and charging for more public services.

John McLaren, senior researcher at CPPR, said politicians instinctively baulked at cuts, but soon they would have no choice: "You either get yourself further in the mire or reverse some of the policies from before."

Who would you rather believe - the CPPR or the New Labour Smear and Sleaze party?
49

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 07:41:23
#50 Colin Wilson

"As far as getting Scotland through the recession is concerned, Gray must know perfectly well that there is nothing useful that the Scottish Governmentcan do. "

Nonsense. They have £34 billion to spend, and tax varying powers. I think you mean 'As far as getting Scotland through the recession is concerned, Gray must know perfectly well that there is nothing useful that the Scottish Government is willing to do.
50

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 07:53:20
#53 Rules

No, no - it would all be gravey. We could all bathe in oil while not listening to the BBC on the radio (if commesar Jameson allows baths, rather than more efficient showers).
51

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 08:18:22
So, on one side we have Gray saying that Scotland will get an additional £700 million next year, and on the other side we have Swinney saying we will get £500 million less money.

Why don't we sack them both, and dissolve Holyrood?
52

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26/04/2009 08:25:07
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53

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 08:32:33
The leader of the Labour Parliamentary Group at Holyrood must take the Scottish Electorate for fools?

The power-sharing DUP/Sinn Fein coalition in the Northern Ireland Government has announced that the Budget "savings efficiencies", or public spending cuts by any other name, will mean the the Province will receive £600 million LESS over the next 3 years!
Extra funds were promised as part of the peace process
to repair Northern Ireland's infrastructure but it will now have to make do with LESS!

Plaid Cymru, which is in coalition with Labour in the Welsh Assembly Government, has calculated it will also receive £216 million LESS by 2011!

Labour, Plaid's coalition partners, has been badly damaged, and nobody would answer any questions about these CUTS, and put up the Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy to take the flack?

Efficiency savings are CUTS in public spending, and ALL the devolved Governments will receive much LESS in their annual budgets.
54

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 08:37:10
#57

I hope they really are cuts, rather than cuts to the growth of public spending, because we need real cuts.

Swinney can bite the bullet and cut all public sector employee's salaries rather than repeating his '9000 job losses' mantra.
55

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 08:50:08
58 The Tin Man

Why do you believe that nurses are overpaid?
56

TWC,

exLAbour 26/04/2009 08:53:21
Posted Missing???
Elmer Fudd is permanently missing. If they are to be efficiency savings then they should be debated bythe Holyrood Parliament and returned to Westminster not the other way around. This is another example of Westminster trying to run Holyrood the way it used to.

This guy gray is the worst leader Scottish Labour has ever had, he thinks he is still a teacher.
Labour are finished in Scotland just look at how the Welsh and the Irish are complaining about the CUTS.
57

mr angry,

ayrshire 26/04/2009 08:58:40
45. You idiot , the SNP manifesto was based on them being a majority government , how could they base it on being a minority government and not knowing who else they would be dealing with. They have done their best , what we need now is to make them a majority government and then we can hold them to account for everything.
58

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 08:59:00
#59 bully

The average nurse in Scotland gets paid £32,000 per year.
59

Curley Bill,

26/04/2009 08:59:03
"Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain and most fools do."
Isn't this Holyrood Labour's mission statement?
Iain Gray - Fudd by name, fudd by nature.
60

Pilrig,

Livingston 26/04/2009 09:00:55
The Tin Man morphin into the Tory Man ?
61

mr angry,

ayrshire 26/04/2009 09:02:04
58. Tin can , I am amazed I fully agree with one of your posts.
62

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 26/04/2009 09:05:13
"Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain and most fools do."

Welcome to the scottish labour party.
63

mr angry,

ayrshire 26/04/2009 09:06:34
62. make that 2 posts. Nurses are well paid , we hear all these clowns constantly whinging about nurses, teachers and police. All extremely well paid, index linked pensions, guaranteed jobs for life and for police full pension before they are 50.
Time to give it a rest about how well these public sector workers are, and many of the rest doing easy jobs are also well overpaid.
64

TWC,

26/04/2009 09:10:40
Latest independent studies show that the Scottish budget will fall short by £6Bn by 2013 so I don't know where Gray has his head stuck the guy is useless.
Sign the petition folks and get rid of the Labour party.
65

Ananurhing,

26/04/2009 09:10:45
Gray/Murphy! What a bad dream ticket for labour.
Fudd 'n' Spud! They should both be a bit more grateful. Were it not for the SNP running through the only talent Slab had left, neither of these third rate scum would have risen to the surface!

With a 7% approval rating it's time to change the record Elmer!
66

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 09:18:20
TWC, so thats how it works now?

Democratically elected Governments removed by a petition.

Is that really what you want?
67

Edward,

26/04/2009 09:20:39
The Labour 'Red Rag' project was based on two aims
one being smear against other parties, the second being negative. That is when all else fails group Labours failings and corruption with other parties so that the voter thinks that ALL political parties and politicians are the same.
Why do I mention this?
Ive noticed a common thread from the pro Labour/pro unionist posters on here and that is the negative approach. When they cant win, they are coming out with the 'the SNP are as bad as Labour' tact.
Examples #42 Mercutio, #53 Rulesbutnotrulers
68

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 09:24:49
7 Rufus

Oh dear. Rufus wants to keep Trident. Obviously he's not been given the latest update ....

"Other initiatives under threat are believed to include the identity card scheme, building a successor to the Trident missile and new military aircraft carriers."
69

TWC,

exLabour 26/04/2009 09:26:58
70 RufusT-Firefly

People can use a facility offered by the PM, why not. The Labour party uses the press to spin in it's favour.
The petition is there and can be used for the purpose it was set up, that is to give your opinion to the PM.

BTW the petition was to remove Gordon Brown from the PM role to which he was not elected by us.
70

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 09:31:32
Tin man

"The average nurse in Scotland gets paid £32,000 per year."

Ha ha ha ha ha. Rubbish.
71

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 09:32:35
72

I meant ..wants to upgrade"
72

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 09:37:03
Comrade Broon set up the 'Downing Street' e-petition system.

People are beginning to use it!!

8,308 at 9.30am and rising.

Watch the numbers rocket tomorrow!!!

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/#detail

Will Paddy O'Poison be setting up a petition on his pathetic website???
73

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 09:37:29
#75 Hugh

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6410017.stm

2007

"the deal was defended by the Scottish Executive, which said that it would take average nursing salaries up from £30,500 to £32,000.

Starting salaries would go up from £19,200 to £19,700 and the salaries of the highest-paid nurses would go up from £60,900 to £62,400, according to the executive.

A spokesman said a combination of the pay rise and progression through salary bands would result in an average increase next year of 4.4%."

74

TWC,

26/04/2009 09:41:41
78 Scottish unionist supporter

I think 30+ Labour MPs from Scotland is a bit optimistic
75

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 09:42:01
Aye it's not been a good week for Comrade Broon and his brother(and sister) bottom-feeders!

What happened to the G20 bounce???

Certainly the laser printer didn't bounce very well!!!
76

Edward,

26/04/2009 09:43:51
#77 The Tin Man
Hate to rain on your parade, but that information is erronous at best
In order to get a salary of £ 60,900 to £ 62, 400
the 'nurse' would have to be on Band 8 or 9, which is actually for managers and Matrons and not frontline nurses. The average figure was put out by the Labour administration in March 2007 to justify the poor increase. But the figures were heavily massaged
Try and get your facts right
77

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 09:44:19
77

I think you are confused between "average" pay and "median" pay.
78

Al Ford,

26/04/2009 09:46:00
One perceives that Mr Gray is still given to quoting Ben Franklin bizarrely. As I remember, old Ben was in favour of national independence and was fully implicated in ending British rule in his country.

For those of us who know old Ben quite well it is not hard to see that he would have had plenty to say about the monumentally disastrous UK Labour administration that we shall soon be seeing the back of. An example of this might be:

"How few there are who have courage enough to own their Faults, or resolution enough to mend them!" (Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack)
79

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 26/04/2009 09:48:13
The tax-varying powers are impossible to use in practice. The UK will obstruct any attempt to use them, as was shown only recently when the Scottish Government wanted to use those powers to replace the council tax.

As for however much the Scottish Government has that it can spend: recessions are not ended merely through governments' spending decision.
80

Ewan Randall,

26/04/2009 09:49:04
(#1) – (webwiser) – “What the SNP have been saying is that the cuts should not be made when the economic recovery might just be getting underway”

If you are saying that the cuts should not be made as the economic recovery might be underway are you not in some way admitting that Westminster government’s economic policies might be working?

“Scotland's ills and the state of her economy is down to every Unionist Government going back decades. The latest fiasco is down to Global Gordon and his shocking handling of the UK economy.”

What is it about what the unionist governments have done which have brought about Scotland’s ills and the state of its area of the economy?

What is it about what Gordon Brown has done with the handling of the UK economy which could have been foreseen as an error and highlighted by any of the other major political parties?

“Gray and his equally talentless other half Murphy are prone to making statements that are completely untrue. This one about the referendum is just the latest.”

Is it not true that the parties which together hold the majority of MSPs in the Scottish parliament do not want at this time to pursue independence?

Could it also be seen as the SNP are making gains in polls and putting many MSPs at risk of losing their seats that these parties have no incentive in helping out the SNP?
81

Edward,

26/04/2009 09:50:15
#78 Scottish unionist supporter
I think you have the rose tinted specs on.
You have obviously missed the latest polls conducted by Politics Home which polled about 35,000 people in all the UK marginals and concluded that from Scotland, there would be 30 to 35 SNP MP's returned to Westminster. This was of course conducted before the well received budget and the latest sleaze
What do you think? do you think 30 to 35 is being a bit optimistic or about right?
82

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 09:51:28
Careers Scotland:

"On the NHS Agenda for Change pay scales, a newly qualified nurse is on Band 5. From April 1, 2008 this has been £20,225 - £26,123 a year. A nurse team leader is on Band 6 (£24,103 - £32,653), while a nurse team manager is on Band 7 (£29,091 - £38,352 a year).

At the highest levels, nurse consultants can earn up to £64,118, depending on responsibilities."

Nurses work a basic 37.5-hour week. Shift work is usual, some employers offer flexi-time working, and overtime is common."



83

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 09:54:02
Median pay as at 25 April 2009

Staff nurse:- 20,242
RN:- 18,784

http://www.payscale.com/chart/186/Median-Salary-by-Job---Employer-The-National-Health-Service-NHS-United-Kingdom_GBP_20090425021127-v1.0.jpg

84

smokey joe 1,

26/04/2009 09:56:52
Elmer Fudd (Iain Gray) Dont get him angry, he roars like a hamster.
85

Ewan Randall,

26/04/2009 09:58:35
(#2) – (webwiser) – Though Mr Salmond might have been correct in stating that to divide 24 by 0 comes to zero, could it not also be said that as 0 represents an absence of anything it can not divide into anything an infinite number of times as Mr Salmond said?
86

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 09:58:57
Tin man

Let's say a company manager is on £100,000 a year.
He/she has 50 staff working for him.
5 of the staff are on £20,000
40 of the staff are on £30,000
5 at the top are on £40,000

Average pay is ?
Median pay is ?
87

Edward,

26/04/2009 09:59:10
#92 Scottish unionist supporter
Think you should read this
http://www.politicshome.com/UltimateEditorInclude/UserFiles/PDFs/PoliticsHome_Scotland.pdf
88

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 09:59:15
#91 Hugh

http://www.payscale.com????????

:-)

You cannot be serious.
89

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 09:59:45
Does anyone think key Brown adviser, Tommy McAvoy, MP for
Rutherglen and Hamilton West will be re-elected?

From The Mail on Sunday,

An analysis of published expenses shows that the MP for Rutherglen and Hamilton West claimed £925,000 in allowances between 2001 and 2008, or about £132,000 a year – which is on top of his current salary of around £100,000.

Add in his likely claims for the past financial year – yet to be published – and Mr McAvoy, whose official title is Treasurer of the Household, has probably broken the £1million mark in parliamentary allowances.

Its scumbags like McAvoy who should be subjected to tactical voting to get rid off him at the next election.
90

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 10:00:15
This has been done before (last year I think).
AM2 explained it better.
91

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 10:00:32
Hey! 100 without trying!
92

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 10:01:41
"BTW Hugh, have you managed to remove that video clip yet?"

Yep. Thanks for asking.
93

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 10:02:55
#96 Hugh

Thank you for being so pedantic. I do know the difference between average, and median.

How do you propose to pay off the national debt?

(thanks for 'payscale.com' by the way, that brightened-up my morning :-)
94

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 10:03:53
You earn 100,000 a year.
A man at your work earns 20,000 a year.
Average salary is 60,000 a year.

Seem a fair way of working it out?

Most nurses in the NHS are between the bottom of the pay scales and the middle.
95

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 10:05:21
Tin Man

"Thank you for being so pedantic."

I tried to explain it in the simplest of terms so you'd understand.
96

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 10:05:37
#105 SUS

"Hugh is on about medium pay , ie the actual pay not the average."

Wow! :-) Lol.
97

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 10:06:25
Scottish unionist supporter

House comparison.

That saves me from giving that example.
98

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 10:08:13
77 The Tin Man

I suspected that you may use that reference as justification for your erroneous assertation that “Nurses average pay is £32,000 per annum”.

The actual pay scales are as detailed below, and for your assertation that the “average” nurse is actually at the top of the “nurse team leader” level to be true is demonstrably nonsense.

Do you actually understand the meaning of the word “average”, or are you like Andy Kerr, who produced the quote you refer to, both innumerate and illiterate?.

From Scottish Careers.com

“ On the Agenda for Change pay scales a newly qualified nurse is on Band 5. From April 1, 2008 this has been £20,225 - £26,123 a year. A nurse team leader is on Band 6 (£24,103 - £32,653), while a nurse team manager is on Band 7 (£29,091 - £38,352 a year).”




99

TWC,

26/04/2009 10:12:04
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/
Just a reminder to sign
100

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 10:12:57
TIN MAN

Your head is on fire in the oven
Your feet and legs are in a freezer
The rest of your body is lying on the floor
Your average body temperature is 98.6ºF

YOU LIVE! YOU LIVE!
101

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 10:14:12
#111 bully

The average wage for someone employed by the BoS is £28,296.

Average wage in Scotland:
Aberdeen City: £35,959
City of Edinburgh: £33,004
Shetland Islands: £29,219
Aberdeenshire: £29,048
North Lanarkshire: £28,901
East Lothian: £28,511
Glasgow City: £28,400
East Dunbartonshire: £27,903
West Lothian: £27,318
Orkney Islands: £27,309
Source: Bank of Scotland

The fact that the BoS decided to use the mean, rather than the median wage was probably contributary to their downfall.
102

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 10:15:57
... and of course it was the previous executive who uttered the pash about "average pay of a nurse"

They've been doing the same about teachers' pay over the years. They spout an "average" pay of a teacher, but add in all the promoted posts up to Head, and divide the total by number of staff. Mince.
103

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 10:20:42
119

To be fair - take away the bottom 10% as well.

104

Ewan Randall,

26/04/2009 10:20:44
(#92) – (Scottish unionist supporter) – AM2?

Did you know if you go back to around the time of the Scottish elections 2007 and look at the method AM2 used to write and check it against the way AM2 writes now the styles are completely different?

In what way do you find what I have written as being tripe?

Did I say you should side with Gordon brown if you don’t want to?

Can you prove that the biggest threat to the UK is the state of the Labour party or just the Labour party alone?

Could it not be said that the strength of any UK party is having as many representatives as possible from as many regions as possible to be truly representative of the people?

Should it not also be pointed out that those people who wish to call others stupid should know that “would actually help us out but you are to thick to realise that” should have read – would actually help us out but you are too thick to realise that.
105

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 10:22:19
And just when the comrades thought it couldn't get any worse!!!

From The People, (which is not even a newspaper!!!)

Embattled Home Secretary Jacqui Smith is to be forced into a job-swap with children's supremo Ed Balls.

Gordon Brown wants to get key ally Mr Balls, 42, into pole position to take over when he quits as party leader.

The PM fears he's done for if Labour go into next year's General Election against the 18-point Tory lead revealed by an exclusive poll in The People today.


And he wants Mr Balls to have a top office of state to boost his leadership credentials.

Mr Brown will reshuffle his Cabinet on June 12 after the Euro and local elections.

Ms Smith will be moved to education after the row over her expenses and her hubby using taxpayers' cash to watch porn.

But Alistair Darling will stay as Chancellor because the PM knows axing him now would be seen as a no-confidence vote in his handling of the economy.
106

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 26/04/2009 10:28:02
"Ministry of Defence scientists have been ordered to halt research and development of the SAS` new "Optical Camouflage System"

The decision was made because the leader of the Labour group at Holyrood appears to have developed a "Klingon Invisibility Cloak" all by himself"

With apologies to the original author.
107

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 10:29:23
TWC, Gordon Brown did not have to be elected as PM.

Those are the rules.
108

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 10:31:57
It's good to see New Labour Sleaze adopting some sensible SNP policies!!

No money to pay for new jet fighters, Titan jails etc.,??

Don't use PPP/PFI it costs too much!!!!

Too little, too late!!
109

TWC,

26/04/2009 10:32:55
127 RufusT-Firefly

You said I was removing a democratically elected government I pointed out that removing the PM who was not elected as such was not the same.
He can remain as a an MP.
So sign the petition folks
110

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 10:33:51
#124
"who has the best mates"

Well judging by your post certainly not Iain Dale and Guido Fawkes.
111

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 10:35:46
Sign the Downing Street petition before Comrade Broon withdraws it!!

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/#detail

Numbers now at 8454 and rising!!
112

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 10:37:46
#121 Hugh

"119

To be fair - take away the bottom 10% as well."

To be fair, take the middle 80% away as well :-) Maybe that's how people at RBS arrived at their probability distributions.
113

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 10:41:52
129 TWC

So thats why you said "sign the petition folks and get rid of the Labour Party"

Your replies have to be a bit better than that.
114

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 10:46:27
131 Jimmy, a huge 8454 have signed the petition?

Even ignoring those that made multiple posts, that is mega.

With huge numbers like that, a major revolution is just around the corner.

HA HA HA HA HA
115

GM,

26/04/2009 10:46:40
Funniest thread in a few weeks -

Mr 7% makes a contribution to RedRag (The Scotsman) and out comes Rufus to play along with "I'll ask the Questions" Ewan Randall.

Randall & Rufus (deceased)



Keep it up guys - those who still believe Labour spin works are going to get some sharp lessons in the next 18 months or so (although I do recognise that perhaps you post your nonsense as a self-comforting requirement rather than anything else).
116

GM,

26/04/2009 10:54:32
Rufus, given the events of recent weeks, do you seriously expect us to believe you are anything other than a Labour stooge, probably even paid (but perhaps stupid enough to donate your time), to troll this forum to 'get the message across'.

Its just *so* obvious.

Who instructed you? Foulkes himself? Did Dolly's instructions get down to grass roots such as yourself and you rose to the call to arms?

Epic Fail.


Even AM2 didn't pick and choose his stories to comment on, as if acting under instruction.
117

Soloman,

Stirling 26/04/2009 10:54:45
Greg Dykes (EX BBC) Labour Party Scape Goat

Sir Fred Goodwin )EX RBS) Labour Party Scape Goat

Iain Gray candidate for another Labour Party Scape Goat





118

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 10:55:11
Laugh Rufus,

It was 2000 yesterday morning. Once news of this is e-mailed all round offices and factories watch it rocket.

Comrade Broon is despised like no other PM (elected or otherwise) and that's just in his own party!!

He's either to vain, deluded or stupid to get the message.

And as for multiple posts, we'll leave that and postal fraud to you unionists.
119

KWC,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 10:56:49
Gray needs to get real. I still hear Maggie Thatcher being blamed for things. You will probably hear more in the run up to the next election.

Gray is pathetic, and that sanctimonious dumpling, Andy Kerr (the man with the answers to everything) is just annying in the extreme. Pity he didn't have these fiashing insights when he was in a position of power.

Gray should start with his own people.
120

TWC,

exLabour 26/04/2009 10:56:54
133 RufusT-Firefly
It would probably be the result but then it would be their choice the petition will only remove the head and since that head is chosen by the Labour party it would be up to them if they carried on.
You don't seem to understand politics so you must be a Labour employee cause they don't apply any rules either
121

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 10:58:34
Scottish unionist supporter et. al.

For your information, here's the results of Hugh's example:

Tin man

Let's say a company manager is on £100,000 a year.
He/she has 50 staff working for him.
5 of the staff are on £20,000
40 of the staff are on £30,000
5 at the top are on £40,000

Average pay is ? 31,373
Median pay is ? 30,000

Also, the mode is 30,000.
122

Soloman,

Stirling 26/04/2009 10:58:57
'WHAT is clearer than ever after last week's Budget is it is time for Alex Salmond to stand up and be counted as First Minister.'

What's clear to the electorate is that it's time for Scottish Labour to stand up for the people of Scotland and give up their support for all the London Lies!
123

GM,

26/04/2009 11:03:19
@3
"Iain Gray is spot on as always."

to about 7% of the electorate anyway.

Laugh?
I nearly bought a round...

What an opening gambit.
Rufus, wee tip for you - If you expect anyone to take your posts seriously you really have to open with something approaching reality.

Good for a laugh mind so thanks for that.
124

GM,

26/04/2009 11:06:56
Latest from Guido -

Looks like two Labour peers have been found guilty of taking cash for amendments. The Sunday Times reports that Lord Taylor of Blackburn and Lord Truscott face a one year suspension.

A years suspension from the gravy train? They just got caught trying to sell legislation, isn’t whoring out parliament a bit more serious than that punishment suggests? Is there really no criminal sanction available?

We still have yet to hear the outcome of the investigation into Alistair Darling’s old flatmate, Lord Moonie. Guido would also love to get to the bottom of the financial relationship between Moonie, Gordon Brown and Darling.

We know Moonie paid Gordon Brown handsomely for his old Kennington flat which he then sub-let to Alistair Darling. We are clearly not dealing with an obscure outsider here, we are dealing with someone at the corrupt heart of Labour’s Scottish Raj. Did Darling claiming an allowance from the taxpayers to be paid to his mate Moonie? Isn’t that a little too cosy a use of public money?

http://www.order-order.com/2009/04/sunday-sleaze-3/
125

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:09:15
#151 Scottish unionist supporter troll

Applying your 'logic' :-), you need to take the top 10% of those poll results away. As per Hugh's advice, the bottom 10% should be disregarded, as well.
126

alanh,

ek 26/04/2009 11:12:08
"Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain and most fools do." Yes you have summed YOURSELF up quite well Mr Grey.
Now enlighten us on your party's policies, if you have anything positive to say for Scotland
What is you policy on the council tax that you promised during your leadership election?
How would you pay for the new Forth crossing and our schools and hospitals?
What is you policy on prescription charges?
what is your policy on new nuclear power stations?
what is your policy on replacing trident?
what is your stance on ID cards?
What CUTS in front line services are you proposing to come up with the £350-£500million "efficiency" savings?
127

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 26/04/2009 11:13:22
From the Sunday Herald :-

SNP FACES 6 BILLION BUDGET MELTDOWN

The SNP Government is to be told by the countries most respected economic think-tank this week that ministers will have to face up to scrapping some cherished policies because of spending cuts imposed by the Westminster budget.

Flagship legislation under threat includes the freeze on council tax, the axing of bridge tolls, cutting prescription charges and free higher education.

Universal free care for the elderly could also be affected.

________________________

Didn`t Jim Murphy tell us these aren`t "cuts" ?

Didn`t he tell us how much better off we are in the Union ?

If this man did actually attend university, was his degree in proving that sugar = shecht ?
128

TWC,

26/04/2009 11:13:58
156 alanh

More apprenticeships
129

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:14:20
Ian Gray is completely ignoring the difference between Labour and the SNP (in conjunction with Harriet Harman, the TUC, and the vast majority of Labour supporters) in how we should fight the recession. The SNP (and the vast majority of Labour supporters) believe that we should be directing public money towards public services and creating jobs. New Labour don't. They are directing trillions towards proppoing up the system that has failed us. The only criticism I have of Salmond is that he isn't shouting loud enough.
130

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:15:54
#156 alanh

One option would be to sack the lot of them, for all the good they have done...
131

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 11:19:08
144

Sigh. You haven't really been wasting you time with that have you? Well done anyway. Now of course, in a company there are more workers at the bottom to middle pay scales. Change the example to:-

Company manager is on £100,000 a year.
He/she has 50 staff working for him.
40 of the staff are on £20,000
5 of the staff are on £30,000
5 at the top are on £40,000

Median is totally different now.
It's all a con Tin Man. Figures are manipulated all the time.
132

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:21:37
#157 scottish unionist suporter :-)

Percentages are statistics. Surely the same 'logic' :-) applies to percentages, as to other measurements, in your interesting statistical system?
133

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:22:53
164 There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Under the Labour Government the disparity between rich and poor, the gap between them, has widened even more than under the Tories. That means you can generate statistics which prove that we are all better off. The reality is that the rich have got richer, the poor have got poorer and more numerous, and those of us in the middle have largely stayed the same.
134

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:23:08
#164 Hugh

According to your system, which parts of the data set should I ignore? :-)
135

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:26:38
167 You should perhaps take your blinkers off and look at the reality of the situation.
136

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:28:48
#167 Observer

I think the reality of the situation is that the Scottish education system produces people who can't count. Possibly why the exec seem to think that the natioan debt falls into the 'not applicable' category.
137

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 11:31:26
Tin Man

Ignore the lot - lies, damn lies and statistics.

and -

"the Scottish education system produces people who can't count. Possibly why the exec seem to think that the natioan debt falls into the 'not applicable' category."

Obviously it also produces people who can't spell. WTF is a "natioan" debt?
138

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:31:29
169 The education system produces about 12% of people who are functionally illiterate and innumerate. They go on to be the 12% with variations according to geographical location and measurements of deprivation who are benefit claimants and non-contributors to the Scottish economy. I doubt however that they have jobs in Holyrood, with the possible exception of certain members of the Labour grouping.
139

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:35:26
#170

Perhaps a combination of 'national' and 'notional' :-)

#171

Christ, we have doubled the amount spent per pupil for that?

Why don't we get rid of Holyrood?
140

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:36:12
You can measure poverty. Those are one set of statistics I am inclined to believe.
141

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:37:21
173 I think getting rid of Westminster would be more cost effective. All the evidence points to that.
142

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:38:35
#172 SUS

You are 100% right. Or maybe you are 80% right, if you remove the upper and lower 10% of your rightness.
143

TWC,

26/04/2009 11:38:58
173 The Tin Man

Expand Holyrood and reduce Westminster.
144

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:40:38
#175 Observer

Westminster do seem to be doing a better job on education and health than Holyrood, though.
145

TWC,

26/04/2009 11:41:09
The resign petition is now 17th highest petition on number 10 website.
146

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:41:26
178 Just get rid of it. The functions Westminster performs are limited and they are the ones which have got us into trouble. Even if you're not inclined to nationalism, as I am not, being part of this union does not make any logical sense.
147

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:43:24
179 No they don't. The policies Westminster have don't recognise the linkage between poverty and ill health and poor educational achievement. They think that introducing ''choice'' and privatising elements of these serices will resolve the problems. That is complete bolleaux.
148

Ewan Randall,

26/04/2009 11:47:17
(#125) – (Scottish unionist supporter) – Have you finished your chocolate confectionary yet?

Why is it you believe that I am arrogant?

Can you prove that I am arrogant?

Who said that I expected your “good” self to reply?

Who said that you are likely to be happy when replying to me?
149

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:48:42
#184 Observer

"No they don't." Well, that is not bourne-out by the statistics (aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! :-)

The scotty execs have frittered away their extravagent budgets on populist measures which have not achieved meaningful improvements.
150

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 11:48:45
"A GOVERNMENT minister has placed a large bet with bookmakers at 66-1 on Labour not winning the next general election.

"The minister said he had placed the bet in mid-2007, just as Gordon Brown succeeded Tony Blair and Labour was riding high in the opinion polls."

Timesonline.
151

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 11:50:29
50% of people don't believe in statistics.
152

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 11:55:10
Onwards and upwards,

Rufus the petition is now at 8610 and rising steeply!!

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/?showall=1

When will the comrades pull it from the website??

We can't have any criticism of Our Dear Leader.
153

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 11:56:41
#191 'scottish unionist supporter'

Now I do hope you are going to manage to refrain from your soiled pyjama rap today....
154

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 11:59:28
187 first of all it is ''borne out'' if you are going to be sneery try and spell properly. Secondly I have never said that the SNP could walk on water, I agree with you some of their measures such as free prescription charges are populist and don't address inequality of wealth. However, they are heading in the right direction which is more than the other parties are doing, and fundamentally I believe than an independent Scotland will bring us a Government which will address the issues of inequality because most Scots want that to happen.
155

,

26/04/2009 12:00:47
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156

,

26/04/2009 12:01:19
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157

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 12:05:01
#194

Well, we'd probably get a decade ot two of Comisar Jamieson and her cohorts, so we'd no doubt get plenty of social equality (median, rather than average :-).
158

alanh,

ek 26/04/2009 12:07:09
on the average wage argument .i'v got to agree with tin man on that.
That is why using "average" wages in an argument is mostly misleading. The few very high earners at the top of the scale pushes up the figure that the majority really get to give us an inflated higher pay that is teh "average salary" for all nurses.
The only way to fully work out the "average" pay of nurses ( if i can remember me old maths from school) is for sme clever person to give us a run down on the total number of nurses employed at each rate so we can total the full anmount of pay and divide it by the total number of staff. Has anyone got, or posted a link to this already?
159

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:07:55
202 I think you are making a massive mistake in assuming that. If Scotland regains her indepenence it will not be business as usual. It's a chance to start again. There are plenty of good people who could do that in all parties.
160

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 12:11:11
#203 alanh

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

There is nothing misleading about an average, a median, and a mode. They are exactly what they say they are. How could they be misleading? Christ, we'll be on to integration, next.
161

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 12:12:28
Traquir,

Did Comrade Gray not say at FMQ's that Trident supports 11,000 Scottish jobs???

I would love to see the arithmetic behind those figures!!

Would it be possible to get the true figures using FOI??
162

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 26/04/2009 12:14:01
The problem Iain Gray has is that he cannot be pro-Scotland without being anti-NuLabour. The result is that he is forced to stand up in Holyrood and argue that the £500m cuts are perfectly acceptable. To the average Scot (excluding idiotic trolls like Rufus) this goes down rather badly. Until Labour in Scotland separate themselves from Westminster they will continue to suffer from this self-inflicted disadvantage.

Gray also appears to be willing to show his ignorance of maths off in public. Why would he do that? What a plonker !
163

Brianwci,

26/04/2009 12:14:04
#38 Cynicus: "....jaicket is on a shougly nail."

LOL. Haven't heard 'shougly' for decades....never mind seen it written.
164

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:14:12
206 Even in the public sector it is not uncommon for Directors to be on 100k upwards. In the Housing sector where I work the Director of GHA gets paid a quarter of a million pounds. For being a dummy. Most executives get bonuses on top of their already vastly inflated salaries. The amount the rich coin in makes any form of statistical average ridiculous. I really don't understand why people put up with this.
165

The Tin Man,

26/04/2009 12:15:19
#209 SUS

http://www.payscale.com

Check it out!

:-)
166

,

26/04/2009 12:16:57
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167

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 26/04/2009 12:17:03
I don't know whether anyone has raised this already on this thread, but is Gray correct in saying that there are 11,000 jobs in the West of Scotland that depend upon Trident? Sounds like a lot to me. I tend to question any numbers quoted by Gray.
168

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 26/04/2009 12:17:32
215 Traquir

Snap!
169

Linda,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 12:18:58
Labour can't con the Scottish people anymore, suggest Iain Gray and Jim Murpohy consider this:

Thinking about the performance of the UK Labour Government and the Scottish SNP Government over the past year…. Which do you think cares most about the needs and interests of you and your family

Scottish Government 44%
UK Government 22%
Neither 26%
Don’t Know 7%

2. Thinking about the performance of the UK Labour Government and the Scottish SNP Government over the past year…. Which do you think cares most about the Scottish economy

Scottish National Party 53%
Labour 22%
Conservative 8%
Lib Dem 7%
170

Marga,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 12:19:21
Interesting discussion.

Can Labour ever win in Scotland?
(Backtotheroots Labour Home)

What Labour in Scotland really needs is to select more able MSPs, but that's a separate issue that only the Scottish constituency parties can address.

Two comments on the article, one on SNP support:

"Labour have become lying dictatorial authoritarian control freaks who were more interested in helping the billionaire tax dodgers in London by leaving the loopholes open than they were in helping ordinary people, so we turn to the SNP. We turn to the SNP not out of any great desire to leave the United Kingdom, but just because there is no one else to turn to. "

and on having a separate Scottish Labour organisation:

"I could never agree to that Alex, it would mean us practically surrending our belief in the United Kingdom."
171

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:21:07
The figures on Trident are vastly inflated Jackie Baillie first came out with them as it is in her constituency she basically assumes that without Trident there would be no economic activity around defence. I think that is a tad unlikely. We will still have a defensive capability it just won't be nuclear. I think the real figure is about 1 or 2,000. And that's being generous. These people can be absorbed and re-deployed. It's worth it.
172

Ewan Randall,

26/04/2009 12:21:36
(#189) - (Hugh Roscombe) - Which 50% is it?
173

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:23:33
221 If we change our defensive capability from nuclear to non nuclear it could actually generate employment but you are right the SNP need to model that and get numbers. But even if it does result in job loss it's still the right thing to do and people can be re-deployed.
174

,

26/04/2009 12:24:04
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175

TWC,

26/04/2009 12:25:06
207 The Tin Man
Don't go on to Integration till you can differentiate between average and Median
176

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:25:20
224 I try to avoid commenting on her unfortunate shape. But MY GOD she must eat a lot.
177

Brianwci,

26/04/2009 12:35:23
#89 Edward says:

"You have obviously missed the latest polls.... and concluded that from Scotland, there would be 30 to 35 SNP MP's returned to Westminster."

As I have always understood it Edward, a majority of Scottish seats for Westminster (and now presumably Holyrood) would give the SNP a mandate to negotiate the terms of an Independent Scotland with Westminster.
178

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 12:39:36
#228 Observer,

Her favourite shop is Piemark!
179

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 12:43:21
Would it not be a good idea to remove the nuclear warheads from Trident and fit pies instead?

The threat posed by an inter-continental ballistic pie is too scary for words.

The only downside to this idea is Jackie might have eaten them all before they could be deployed!!
180

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 12:46:48
Rufus,

8774 at 12.50hrs

Sign the petition - you know it makes sense!!



http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/?showall=1
181

,

26/04/2009 12:49:25
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182

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:51:14
236 I have heard the view that we should replace Trident with Jackie. Having her launched at you inter-continentally would put most enemies off.
183

TWC,

26/04/2009 12:52:16
237 Jimmy Le Pie
Has it frozen now? I haven't seen updates for a while.
I do expect it to freze or the server will come down
184

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:53:04
And then of course we could launch Wendy - that would surely put off the most aggressive of opponents.
185

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 12:53:56
#239 Observer,

I thought your post said incontinently.

Now that would be scary as well as very smelly!!!!!
186

,

26/04/2009 12:54:10
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187

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 12:56:45
242 Well there has been talk of this new diet pill which can lead to sudden loosning of the bowels let's hope Jackie doesn't try it.
188

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 12:59:36
Traquir Alba,

I already bet on Cameron to win the next election 18 months ago.

Got very good odds back then. My winnings will be split with half going to the SNP.

The Tories are about 5-1 on with New Labour Sleaze 10-1.

Its probably best to bet on individual seats. Or overall majority.

Betfair or Political Betting are good places to look for odds.
189

ExpatBackinScotland,

Carnoustie 26/04/2009 13:01:15
Labour seem to want to go out with a bang Titanic style the way they are acting. No one is going to trust them as a group for a very very long time.

The tories will be in power for at least 10 years down south and the SNP will strengthen to have a majority at Holyrood.

That, if nothing else, will get the referendum bill thorugh and then finally, the people of scotland will stop getting told what to do, told that they dont need a referendum and VOTE in A PROPER MANNER on the issue of Independence.

Whatever your view on Scotland going alone, having the democratic right to vote on that exact issue, will be worth waiting for.

Saor Alba
190

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 13:01:17
The new diet pill.

What would be the average weight loss?
What would be the median weight loss?
What would be the mean weight loss?

Eh Eh Eh?
191

smokey joe 1,

26/04/2009 13:01:36
Looks like santa gave Elmer Fudd his christmas wish for a Johnny 7 gun.
http://tinyurl.com/dlqzgn
192

Hugh Roscombe,

26/04/2009 13:03:21
If they made a diet pill the size of a large pie and wedged it in the throat - weight loss would be guaranteed. Death may also ensue if it constricts the breathing. Best to ignore this suggestion. Sorry for troubling you.
193

hoblar,

26/04/2009 13:26:36
"The average nurse in Scotland gets paid £32,000 per year."

the troll called tin man likes your direct replies to idiotic statements like that.

Under the Agenda For Change, the VAST MAJORITY of nurses are on Band 5. The rest are on Band 6 and 7, these are very senior posts, NOT what the 'average' nurse would get.

Here are the Band 5 starting rates for April 2009, available with one google and here is the url although since this is uk based and might be a higher average than Scotland because of London recieving extra monies http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=766

Band 5

Point 16 20,710
Point 17 21,318
Point 18 22,152
Point 19 23,019
Point 20 23,345
Point 21 24,013
Point 22 24,831
Point 23 25,829
Point 24 26,839

Lat time anybody looked £26.,839 DID NOT translate into £32,000

These are for April 2009, the beginning of this financial year, so the troll is lying and that is that.


194

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 14:03:53
I have a very bad taste friend who is fond of saying ''you never saw a fat man coming out of Belsen''.

Bad taste but true. Jackie just needs to stop eating so much.
195

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26/04/2009 14:20:23
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196

PMK,

26/04/2009 14:20:25
Iain Gray is just another Labour stooge, and even more unpopular than Wendy Alexander if you can believe that. The fact that any newspaper is willing to give him column space is shocking considering he just lied to the Scottish Parliament in his last outing claiming Scotland will somehow magically be getting more not less money!

Go home to Broon Gray, Scotland doesn't want you. Your lies are not welcome, your lines are uninspiring and you face losing your seat (again - this time I suspect you wont have a couchie fake job to fall back on). Time to look out the old CV ... and remember no-one will hold it against you if you just don't mention you were a sleazy, Labour politician.
197

,

26/04/2009 14:32:01
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198

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 14:35:21
#251 And I have never seen a slim woman in Glasgow (apart from junkies of course).
199

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 14:36:26
254 So how is the unionist sewer these days Rufus ? Does it resemble a bunker ?
200

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 14:38:48
255 Tut tut what a lie, we are actually quite stylish, those of us who don't have dyed blonde hair, an orange tan, and don't dress in track suits as that is all we can fit into. We thin brunettes are quite nice looking.
201

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 14:40:53
Rufus,

9036 and still rising!!

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/?showall=1

How's New Labour Sleaze getting on organising the postal votes for the forthcoming Euro elections, local elections, party selection elections and the next general election???
202

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 14:46:16
256 Observer, such a place does not exist.

258 Jimmy, the petition is meaningless. A bit like the national conversation. You know that as well as I do.
203

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 14:50:10
What happened to Spook the other night? He went into meltdown and got deleted to death.
204

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 14:51:56
259 Oh it does Rufus. You are defending your territory whilst being attacked on multiple fronts. You've got to have a bunker, that's where the Generals retreat to. Perhaps you just haven't been told where it is.

Mind you I do agree that petitions are generally quite useless.
205

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 14:56:07
260 Being deleted in this forum is a badge of honour. Has Spook been banned yet ? That is a medal, says two commas Observer.
206

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 14:59:17
#259 Rufus,

Anything that keeps the pressure up on Comrade Broon and his sleaze ridden party is worthwhile.

I see you can get 9-1 on New Labour Sleaze at the next GE.

You should get your hoose, plasma car, blue tv and your laptop on at those odds!!
207

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 15:01:10
265 I am sighing with nostalgia for the old Herald days. So many good letters and threads that weren't made........
208

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 15:12:31
jimmy 9/1 on what?
209

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 15:18:55
Rufus,

On New Labour Sleaze winning the general election (presuming that Comrade Broon doesn't declare a state of emergency first!!)
210

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 15:23:49
Jimmy, if the election was tomorrow then Labour would have no chance. In a years time anything is possible.
211

,

26/04/2009 15:29:57
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212

,

26/04/2009 15:43:00
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213

TWC,

26/04/2009 15:44:17
Jimmie the petition is now 9173 and rising
214

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 15:51:53
271 It's probably better if you just go back to sleep and don't read Traquir's posts. He has this terible habit of being completely right all the time, and able to evidence his posts, it must be very annoying, from your point of view.
215

Edward,

26/04/2009 15:56:44
Iain Gray states 'Labour at Westminster have promised to safeguard frontline services and budget increases in health of 5% and, in education 4%. The First Minister must make the same promise for Scotland'
This was the same facile statement made on Thursday , except that Iain Gray fails to alude to the fact that the budget increases in the budget on education and health actually only apply to England! But Gray expects the First Minister to increase the budget in Scotland despite the fact that Westminster are cutting the money coming to Scotland. In a word that describes Gray's reasoning - PATHETIC!!!
216

,

26/04/2009 16:01:29
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217

,

26/04/2009 16:01:52
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218

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 16:04:04
#275 TWC,

The petition is now standing at 9226!!
219

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26/04/2009 16:08:33
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220

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 16:09:02
I wonder what the petition will be at when Comrade Broon finally decides when we're celebrating "Britishness Day"??

My kids are all ready to swear allegiance to Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon and the great British Empire, whilst draped in the Butcher's Apron.

Just give us the date Comrade!!!
221

Linoleum Blownapart,

26/04/2009 16:13:37
272

Snigger.
222

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26/04/2009 16:16:48
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223

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26/04/2009 16:17:13
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224

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 16:20:57
#281 Traquir,

It won't just be the Europeans enjoying very favourable exchange rates due to the dire state of the UK economy (due to Comrade Broon's utter incompetence). Every other country will be enjoying the almost worthless sterling exchange rate.

The jellied eel sellers will be doing a brisk trade!
225

,

26/04/2009 16:26:02
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226

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 16:27:24
The petition is now at 9,318!!!
227

smokey joe 1,

26/04/2009 17:01:54
Wasn't moaning Michelle the one that said she would move out of Scotland if A.Salmond became first minister?

Deary deary me how things have changed.
228

,

26/04/2009 17:20:20
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229

,

26/04/2009 18:20:38
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230

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26/04/2009 18:29:39
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231

smokey joe 1,

26/04/2009 18:36:53
291
Labour have no shame, they are a bunch of useless trough swilling scumbags,Iain Gray, Andy Kerr,Cathie Jamieson, Magrat Curran and the rest of the labour pigs HAVE NEVER HAD A REAL JOB.
If Iain Gray wants to represent the people of Scotland who were conned into voting labour he could start by getting off his knees and act like a man instead of bowing to London and acting like Spud Murphy,s side kick.

232

smokey joe 1,

26/04/2009 18:52:53
295.
Ha ha ha.
The Union is dead.
233

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26/04/2009 19:17:25
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234

Queen D,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 19:27:54
Traquir, I made comment on Guidos site about Starkey and about St Georges day, I was attacked by another rabid poster and responded.
I must be one of the few folk in the world to have been moderated and deleted on Guidos site .I was really annoyed having leapt to his defence in the Telegraph!
Perhaps the fact that I logged in under DD had something to do with it.My original post remains but the chav attack does too!Reminded me of a creature that sometimes posts on here.

Observer , I think you and I have the same tasteless friend!
235

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 19:29:49
276 Observer, traquir has the habit of being right?

Of course he does. That is why he thinks Britain is in the Eurozone.

Even the clueless Spook would have got that right.

How stupid can he be?
236

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 26/04/2009 19:38:18
#298 sm753-

"You will note he hardly ever links to any primary, official data sources."

Your modus operandi is to cite supposedly official data sources which either:
(1) Record attempts to justify UK government actions which are in violation of non-rescinded treaties, or
(2) are, conveniently for you, not available to the public through the internet, thus effectively preventing the public from uncovering your obfuscations.
237

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 19:52:45
308 What a weird post from a weird poster.
238

,

26/04/2009 20:21:56
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239

,

26/04/2009 20:22:29
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240

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 26/04/2009 20:34:03
my god is ian gray ,not been snapped up ,for britains got talent?,how could simon miss such an act,a talking rectum,now that is a novelty act,it spews forth bitchy comments,as its never got over the electorate,telling his party "yer bums oot ra windae"
nae wonder theres global warming ,with all that hot air comming from him
he should grow up and start trying to get scotland out of the myre his boss herr broon got us in
241

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 20:35:12
The petition is now standing at 9,832 and climbing steadily!!


http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/#detail
242

,

26/04/2009 20:38:11
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243

,

26/04/2009 20:39:06
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244

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 26/04/2009 20:44:54
317 what is the REMS measurement of the soil?,Although a dose of just 25 rems causes some detectable changes in blood
doses to near 100 rems usually have no immediate harmful effects. Doses above 100 rems cause the first signs of radiation sickness including:
nausea

*vomiting

*headache

*some loss of white blood cells
There is currently no effective medical treatment ,available for potentially fatal radiation doses.
or does london and brown not care?
over a period of time Leukaemia clusters in the population appeared at windscale,and at dounreay
labours malcolm chissum stated in the scottish parli on nuclear power station(answer to written question from greens harvey)
Malcolm Chisholm: The Planning etc. (Scotland) Bill does not prescribe the type of development which may be included in a future national planning framework. Any application by a power generation company for a nuclear power station would be determined by ministers under the terms of the Electricity Act 1989. The Executive’s position on the development of new nuclear power stations is stated in the Partnership Agreement – we will not support the further development of nuclear power stations while waste management issues remain unresolved.
245

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 26/04/2009 20:46:16
read what labour said about nuke power stations when in power
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/pqa/wa-06/wa0224.htm
246

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 26/04/2009 20:46:32
#314 sm753: The facts on Berwick are these:

1. The English occupation of Berwick was military aggression with no constitutional force, and furthermore was in violation of the previous treaty establishing the border at the River Tweed.

2. The subsequent compromise of leaving Berwick under English administration while remaining part of Scotland did not alter the Tweed border.

3. Berwick remained de jure subject to Scots law until 1746, 39 years after the Union.

4. The 1746 act imposing English law on Berwick was a panic measure in reaction to the 1745/46 Jacobite scare (like banning tartan and bagpipes) and was later repealed.

5. English law did not apply in Berwick at the time of the Union in 1707.

6. The Tweed border was accepted by the UK government up to 1999, and the marine border was officially fixed as running due east from the Tweed.

7. This was confirmed and archived by the 1968 UK submission to the United Nations on the law of the sea.

8. No record exists of Berwick having been formally transferred to England. It never happened. The drafters of several pieces of legislation simply assumed in error that the administrative boundary at Lamberton represented the border.

9. None of this intermediate legislation (including the 1999 Order) is of any relevance to the status of Berwick in the event of Scotland becoming independent.

10. If and when independence happens, the Scotland/England border will be on the line that existed at the moment of union on 1 May 1707, i.e. from the middle of the Solway Firth to the middle of the Tweed estuary - a border that has stood for almost eight centuries until covetous southern eyes focussed on the oil and other resources in Scottish waters.

Got it yet?

247

,

26/04/2009 20:50:15
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248

,

26/04/2009 20:59:09
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249

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 21:00:01
The petition is now standing at 9,914 and climbing steadily!!


http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/#detail
250

,

26/04/2009 21:04:27
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251

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 21:11:13
Smee ! Read post 325 ! Please !

In language for a wean - when the union is dissolved we will revert to the status quo as was in 1707. Berwick is not in England.

(and in Scotland the people are sovereign, the principle of Parliamentry sovereignty has no equivalent here).
252

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26/04/2009 21:11:17
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253

lulach mac gille coemgain,

26/04/2009 21:11:33
"Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain and most fools do."

So it’s not a criticism from Gray then ? Heh! Heh!
254

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 21:13:13
298 You are a very arrogant poster Smee. One of these days you need to clue us in as to what it is you are arrogant about.
255

smokey joe 1,

26/04/2009 21:21:55
314 sm753.
Ha,ha,ha.
Are you a lie/bore msp by any chance?
Why oh why are unionists so THICK.
256

,

26/04/2009 21:24:39
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257

,

26/04/2009 21:28:16
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258

,

26/04/2009 21:29:40
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259

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 26/04/2009 21:52:55
having a wee mooch around the scottish parli records of meetings i came accross this one on european funding ,Scottish Parliament
European Committee
Official Report
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/historic/europe/or-00/eu00-1102.htm
have a read and read what wee margo was saying to wee joke
260

Eve,

Scotland 26/04/2009 22:01:31
Ian Gray should tell us Scots what should happen if the solutions the Scottish Government come up with are ignored or shoot down by the Westminster government.

They in Westminster are hardly up for taking much of what the SNP say on board to consider wither Scotland is allowed to do or take part in something or not.

Maybe Ian Gray should also call for the likes of Gorden Brown and other Cabinet minsters to grow up and listen to what the Scottish government has to say more objectively and consider the solutions that they suggest. Instead of out right saying it won't work before looking in to the proposed solution properly.
261

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/04/2009 22:05:15
Hey Rufus,

That's the petition over 10000 now!!!

10,058 to be precise!!!!!!!
262

,

26/04/2009 22:34:17
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263

,

26/04/2009 22:36:20
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264

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 22:47:02
Okay Jimmy going over for a look!
265

RufusT-Firefly,

26/04/2009 22:51:03
Oh Dear, the weirdo Ayrshire Scot has resurfaced as Bogeyman and he is slapping himself on the back.

What a fruitcake.

266

,

26/04/2009 23:28:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
267

Ewan Randall,

26/04/2009 23:42:29
(#136) – (GM) – If you imagine you are smart enough to prove I follow one particular political party then why don’t you have a go?
268

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 27/04/2009 10:20:55
Rufus, read it and weep.


Salmond’s financial competence at heart of poll boost
ROBBIE DINWOODIE, Chief Scottish Political Correspondent April 25 2009

Trust in the SNP's stewardship of the economy, even among supporters of political rivals, appears to be at the heart of the party's strong showing in a new opinion poll.

The YouGov survey showed the SNP with a growing lead in Holyrood standings and narrowing the gap with Labour for Westminster to just two points, and questions about the economy indicate that it is trust on this issue which is fuelling the party's strong showing.

The survey of more than 1000 Scottish voters, commissioned by the party itself and carried out on Tuesday and Wednesday, asked "Which party do you think cares most about the Scottish economy?"
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The SNP scored 53%, compared to 22% for Labour, 8% for the Conservatives and 7% for the Liberal Democrats. Unsurprisingly a huge proportion of SNP voters, 94% of those proposing to vote nationalist in the next General Election, trusted their own party on this issue.

But this trust extended to non-SNP voters. Among Conservative voters 44% felt the SNP cared most about the Scottish economy (compared to 41% who accorded that status to their own party). Similarly more LibDems gave that rating to the SNP, 47% than to their own party, 35%. And although 65% of Labour voters thought their own party cared most about the Scottish economy, a significant 31% thought the SNP care most.

There was an overwhelming view that the British economy was in trouble, with 88% rating it fairly bad or very bad. Asked the same question about the Scottish economy, 78% felt it was either fairly bad or very bad.

Asked to compare Scotland's economy with that of Britain, 33% thought Scotland was doing better compared to 18% who thought it was faring worse.

SNP Treasury spokesman Stewart Hosie said of the findings: "The SNP's actions in our first two years in Government have delivered major im
269

Hamish Longdirk,

NZ 27/04/2009 10:21:34
2

SNP Treasury spokesman Stewart Hosie said of the findings: "The SNP's actions in our first two years in Government have delivered major improvements in people's lives.By contrast, Labour's £500m raid on Scottish spending has set the terms of politics in Scotland, and will galvanise SNP support further."

A Labour spokesman said of the poll: "Once again we see the SNP congratulating themselves on a poll they commissioned, whilst not doing enough to help Scots through these difficult times."
270

Tris,

27/04/2009 12:20:19
7% Mr Gray.

If I were you, I would concentrate on that.

7%

Lower than the Tories.

7%

Only just above Tavish; Tavish for heaven's sake.

Iain who?
271

Tris,

27/04/2009 13:19:51

In the interests of political impartiality, I assume that Mr Salmond will be given a similar number of column cm next week?
272

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

27/04/2009 17:28:00
"Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain and most fools do." Said Gray.
273

Iainbroch,

10/05/2009 00:45:01
Iain Who! Another bairn with a rattle? See you down the creche Iain!

 

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