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SNP rethink on independence

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Published Date: 11 March 2007
THE SNP is preparing to shelve its commitment to independence for at least four years after the Holyrood election, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.
The rethink was revealed by the party's leading donor Sir Tom Farmer, who has given the party £100,000 to fight the upcoming election.

In an exclusive interview, Sir Tom said that if SNP leader Alex Salmond won in May, the Nationalists would "park" all plans for separation until it had proved its ability to govern. His claim was confirmed last night by several senior SNP figures.

In comments which diverge from the party's official line, Farmer predicted a referendum on independence could be delayed to well beyond the next Holyrood election in 2011.

It seems almost certain no single party will have an outright majority following May's poll. Farmer's comments have triggered renewed speculation that Salmond will ditch the current policy of an independence referendum as the price for becoming First Minister in a coalition government.

The Lib Dems - whose support the SNP will almost certainly need to form a government - have said they would refuse to support any such referendum, effectively ruling out a coalition between the two.

But SNP insiders last night suggested Salmond could hold back on the referendum, suggesting that a pact which would propel Salmond into Bute House for a four-year term is on.

Farmer told Scotland on Sunday: "We all know that the SNP is for independence. If they decide that they want to hold a referendum then they are not going to have the referendum before they have managed to prove that they can make some drastic changes. That could be longer than four years."

He added: "The important thing is who is going to run the country for the next four years. If they do a very good job, of course, they will be returned for another four years and then people will be getting to take a view on many things."

He added: "I think that we have got carried away with the whole thing about one party considering independence and the negative side of independence - as if it was going to happen overnight. No matter what happens, it would be a long, long time coming off."

He went on: "I think without doubt if you vote for the SNP you are showing that you have a strong feeling that you consider living in an independent environment. But I think also people should be under no illusions that it won't happen within the next five years."

One well-placed SNP source said: "Tom Farmer is absolutely right on this. We have got to prove ourselves to the electorate before we go for a referendum."

The source added: "What we have got to do is show people that we are competent and then move matters forward through getting more powers at the Parliament and then at a later junction saying: OK, let's now look at going that little bit more."

According to the source, the SNP leadership would not find sustained opposition from their 'fundamentalist' wing, who are traditionally opposed to any watering down of the party's commitments.

The source added: "The membership of the SNP want to win. The rank and file is much less radical than is thought."

Another well-placed insider not close to Salmond added: "The troops want to be told by Alex what to do and if he says they couldn't get a referendum as part of a deal then they will accept that."

SNP sources also point out that the party is set to undergo a major transformation after May's election when dozens of activists are likely to be elected councillors following changes to the electoral system.

They point out that is likely to dampen the 'fundamentalist' wing of the party, which would be opposed to any delay in the independence commitment. "Instead of thinking about utopia, they will be thinking about the state of the local park," said one.

Meanwhile, in his Scotland on Sunday interview, Farmer said he had been dismayed by what he called the "negative" campaign tactics of the Labour party. Labour is expected to step up its attacks on independence this week, insisting that a vote for the SNP is a vote to split up the UK with immediate effect.

He also hit back at claims that Scotland would be unable to afford to pay its own way. "I don't accept the idea that we won't be able to afford things on our own. That is negative politics," he said. "People keep saying that national companies will leave [if Scotland became independent]. Why? What attracts companies is people and the ability of people to have a can-do attitude."

He added: "Why should it be the case that the Royal Bank of Scotland and Scottish Widows and Scottish and Newcastle and the John Wood group are all going to leave? That isn't correct. What we would have is some excitement in the country. I don't accept the idea that we won't be able to afford things on our own."

Farmer said he believed that rather than being about independence, the current election campaign should be about issues such as education, health, employment and security.

He went on: "We've had eight years of devolution. I think most people didn't think it would be like this. We anticipated that there would be drastic changes, that the government would be lean and mean.

"There have been some improvements and there have been some changes but that happens every generation. I don't think that what we have got is what people expected."

An SNP spokesman said: "Sir Tom is absolutely right that the SNP do need to prove ourselves in government and that is exactly what we will do and we will be setting out some of our specific policy proposals at our conference next week.

"The position is clear that this is compatible with holding a referendum on independence within the four-year term."

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1

,

11/03/2007 01:08:49
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2

Bill, Dunblane,

11/03/2007 01:20:30

No - plain and simple.

3

Christina,

11/03/2007 01:23:31

Scotland on Sunday is much more entertaining since it stopped reported the news and started making it up instead!

4

Jock MacSprog,

11/03/2007 01:26:05

scottwebb, your insane paranoid ramblings are really the only interesting thing about reading this paper online !

5

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 01:32:49

Comment@4 Jock MacSpog, hey thanks :)

6

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 01:36:03

Watch a few of those vids THEN tell me about insane :)

7

Dougiedownunder,

Sydney 11/03/2007 01:36:27

I wouldn't vote for Salmond if you paid me but excuse me, if the SNP isn't going to be a vehicle striving to bring about independence at the earliest opportunity what possible purpose could it serve? Unless, of course, wee Eck just likes the idea of feeling powerful while Sir Tom pays the piper and calls the tune

8

Eliza,

Dunfermline 11/03/2007 01:37:09

Fair enough I suppose. Rome wasn't built in a day and if Scotland does decide to become independent then it cannot be achieved overnight.

9

,

11/03/2007 01:51:18
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10

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 01:53:52

#3. Christina

Got it in one !

Fiction is often more entertaining than truth when it comes to the newspapers these days .. unless its to do with the bribes for peerages stuff ... no one could make up such a farce as that one.

11

Gnasher,

11/03/2007 01:56:26

I thought it was TIME!

Obviously not.

12

Joe M.,

11/03/2007 01:58:45

Typical invented trash, raise your game SOS!

www.scottishindependence.com

13

Joe M.,

11/03/2007 02:04:56

This is the official quote: "Sir Tom is absolutely right that the SNP do need to prove ourselves in government and that is exactly what we will do and we will be setting out some of our specific policy proposals at our conference next week.

"The position is clear that this is compatible with holding a referendum on independence within the four-year term."

It makes a lot more strategic sense than the made up ones! Q.) Why on earth would any genuine SNP member undermine their own parties cause? A.) They wouldn't.

14

Robbie,

NZ 11/03/2007 02:18:03

“SNP rethink on independence”
Firstly that is a mischievous headline by Eddie Barnes. I doubt if anyone believes that the SNP had changed it’s mind for an independent, sovereign Scotland with a seat at the UN and joining the myriad of nations who consider self-government the ‘norm’ and rule from outside their borders, ‘weird‘.
The great disappointment to the SNP and to many exiles like myself, living in sovereign nations is that although the SNP lead in the polls - their support for independence is still not overwhelming as it would be in Ireland, Switzerland, Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden, Australia, Iceland, Denmark, Singapore, Finland, New Zealand, Netherlands, countries who haven’t heard that their economies are too small to be sovereign and whose people would be voting in the high 90% or even 100% for their sovereignty.
Perhaps (and I’m too far away to make a judgement call) Salmon and the SNP want to reassure the doubters among the Scottish electorate that they have abilities, abilities not yet tested. When the referendum does come please that it is at least over the 80% mark for independence and Scots start to use political logic and fathom out the are well behind Western World standards in virtually every living standard and only they themselves can change things a\fro the better.

15

Robbie,

NZ 11/03/2007 02:19:38

14. Robbie,
Sorry Alex 'Salmond'

16

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 02:19:47

Comment@9 Archie, thanks for that mate.....the more you research into what is real and whats not....the more you find the most amazing info.

17

,

11/03/2007 02:27:14
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18

Joe M.,

11/03/2007 02:27:47

The Scottish independence movement is actually more united than ever before and is currently working closely together.

These two sites give more info:

http://www.independence1st.org

http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com

While the unionist press likes to invent division and loves stories about a divided SNP, the reality is that all the Scottish parties (and a huge amount of ordinary Scots who are not politically aligned) all support a democratic referendum on Scottish independence.

It's going to happen.

19

sheena,

at home 11/03/2007 02:39:03

Where do these nameless 'spokespersons' come from? Nobody asked me for my opinion. Of course it is hard to get me (and the rest of the fundamentalist SNP activists) at home these days - too busy canvassing, leafletting, etc. etc.

I have every faith in our leadership. They are elected annually, one member, one vote and know which side their bread is buttered on. They are also well aware that the vast bulk of the party's funding comes, year on year, from the pockets of ordinary members and from their fundraising efforts - not from the few, much publicised, big donors.

This is just another attempt by SOS to 'take the wind out of our sails'. I hope next week they give as much coverage to what is actually said at the conference as they have given this week to their own wishful thinking.

20

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 02:56:49

People have to ask themselves one thing...........WHY is it that so many in London want Scotland to remain in the Union.
Scotland's true asset worth is many times what we are being told.
According to London, Scotland is a drain on resources.
What company would keep a division of anything that was drain on the rest of the company.
I wish people would apply a little common sense and realise we are being told disinformation and lies.
The next four years are very important to those who's goal is world government.
Our main problem is that in EVERY political party and Union organisation, there are members of secret societies who's loyalties lie elsewhere.
They are a cancer and impediment to the development of our nation.......... that withhold knowledge and cures to all diseases and free energy technologies.
They themselves have been brainwashed by their masters to believe that this is for the greater good.
Thats why doctors can keep a straight face when asked WHY cancer is now one in two for men and one in three for women.
Do you know anyone these days that does not have a relative with diabetes or other diseases.
We are being sprayed daily with Chemtrails laden with heavy metals and pathogens that are weakening our immune systems......with the goal very shortly of releasing a flu that will wipe out millions of our population and create a reason to bring about a state of marshal law.
People are waking up to this and the globalists know that time is against them :)

21

,

11/03/2007 03:01:33
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22

Pete39,

Tassy 11/03/2007 03:25:18

I tend to agree with #20 in this instance. The rule from London has in some cases been beneficial to Scotland, but in all cases very beneficial to the London establishment. It is about time you took into your own hands your life and your children's future. Alternatively, you could emigrate.

23

Keren, It's time,

11/03/2007 03:44:19

Yet another non story just like last weeks when the same paper cobbled together a bunch of old buffers who 'warned against the cots of independence' some months ago anf put it on thefront page as if it were new!

This isn't even a story - Farmer is not a poltician and has probably been quoted out of context - even is he hasn't he has no say in the politics of the SNP.

Facts are that:

1) The SNP group after May will be much more fundamentalist and left wing something due to those who will win our new seats which is something the dopy lazy hacks of this newspaper are too stoopid and out of touch to work out.

2) If the SNP leadership ever did try and put off a referendum they until a 'second term' they wouldnae last a week if that long - the party members do not take crap from anyone - ask John Swinney!

24

Bret,

New York 11/03/2007 03:49:33

Steady the ship!
This new SNP strategy will take the wind out of Jacko's Labor party sails.
What else is left for Labor to criticise about the SNP?

Mr Salmond has beaten McConnell at his own game!
Go homeland and do what you must do!

25

Geoff,

South Africa 11/03/2007 04:50:12

24 Bret-point of order-as a Yank we would expect you to talk of for example, the fruits of your labor but Labour Party-capital 'L' is a proper name and should be spelt in British English- thus laboring for the Labour Party!

26

Finnking,

Finland 11/03/2007 04:53:30

Eddie Barnes; hang your head in shame.

Apart from the shameful bias of the title:

But SNP insiders last night suggested.....

A well placed source said.He added. Went on.

Another source said, added, went on.

Another well-placed insider not close to Salmond added......

If the political editor of a national newspaper can produce this and not feel guilty when he gets his pay cheque, it says something about the scotsman.

A radical shake up is required.

27

Bill, Dunblane,

11/03/2007 05:12:40

26 - Finnking

The troll had some of us fooled for a short while yesterday - welcome back in yout true form.

Agree completely - fancy a bit of 'Eddie Barnes' knocking? He deserves it. Traitor is too good a word. I'm starting research as we speak.

30 pieces of silver Eddie? To sell out your country? - bought very cheaply. We'll remember you well.

28

,

11/03/2007 06:05:49
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29

Ubi,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 06:49:26

If you aren't voting for independence, what are you voting for ?

30

BillyB,

11/03/2007 07:30:58

Calm down yea fundies, read the small print not the crass sos headline , probably written by somebody other than rhe journalist who filed the story . Because the story - sir tom farmers near unoquivical backing for the snp,and his lambasting of new labour's scare tactics - is a great one. And referendum wise, all he is saying is snp policy - we need to prove ourselves in office first to maximise our chances of winning a referendum. All sir tom has suggested is that this theoreticaly
MIGHT take more than 4 years. sir tom's view, but the manifesto will say 'within 4 years'.so everybody stay calm.
This is sypiccal of scotsman publications - even good news is spun as bad, in part to get us all fighting amongst ourselves. But we are more united than ever, not just internally but we have allies - the greens, ssp, independence 1st,youscotland.com and many more back a referendum within 4 years, Even most lib dems do, if ming would only give them avote, lots of grassroots labour and tory people too. It is the unionists who are split on the referendum issue - intellectually they all over the place. The alexanders are laughable.
Precise timing? We've waited 300 years, what's a couple more to get it right? Lets wait until the tories win westminster, and labour - the real obstacle- is out of office north and south, bankrupt and at each others throats. In 3 years not 5 sir tom. But welcome board and thanks for your valuable insight.

31

Rory Claymore,

North of Dundee 11/03/2007 07:57:28

(Yawn) While the Nats are parked they should get a new exhaust fitted for all the hot air they're producin'.

32

BillyB,

Falkirk 11/03/2007 07:58:02

I should have added - see this week's 'Holyrood' magazine - even Archie Stirling and his new Scottish Voice party supports a referendum within 4 years!
Business community wise. the tide is most definetely turning.

And. thinking labour wise, it most definitely has. See youscotland.com - it's great.

33

jim lad,

the capital 11/03/2007 08:11:24

Get it through your thick skulls, if the SNP win it will not mean independance the bulk of Scots don't want it. On that basis i will be voting SNP but if and when a referendum about independance came about i would vote against it, and can i add i don't like MR Salmond but i do like miss Goldie.

34

jim lad,

the capital 11/03/2007 08:30:46

Apoligies in#35 i didn't mean miss Goldie i meant miss Jamieson no no i don't mean her either i meant her in the photo above whats her name but anyway i like her and this time i'm sure.I think she does a sterling job in the parliament the Scottish one that is. I need my coffee bye.

35

Gnasher,

11/03/2007 08:36:45

I know what you mean, Jim lad.

36

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 11/03/2007 08:51:34

Can anyone give me a link to an interview with Alec Salmond quoting his response to this story?

Much appreciated. It has always been my point of view that there is need to establish confidence in the parties ability to govern before setting a referendum date. This only to reassure the large body of fence sitters who are fearful of change. I am certain that we have enough support to form the next government!

Two years is enough to show what we can do. No more!

37

,

11/03/2007 08:52:33
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38

n/,

glenboggle 11/03/2007 08:54:35

#33, "A new exhaust"?
The SNP are so GREEN in every sense of the word they don't need such!
A donkey and cart more like.
Would they even be able to handle that?
I HAE MA DOOTS;
for the wheels of INDEPENDENCE and the open road,seem to be coming off already!

39

jim lad,

the capital 11/03/2007 09:10:15

Following on #35/36
It's Nicola Sturgeon that i meant. I looked in who's who in the SNP it was easy only two names and i knew she wasn't Mr Salmond

40

CJO,

The Maghreb 11/03/2007 09:31:38

This strikes me as one of the most sensible things the SNP has said. It makes sense to prove that they can actually run the place. It will take more than a protest vote to prepare the country and they are aware of this.

Look at other "protest" parties where power is suddenly thrust upon them such as Hamas (no comparison with the guns & bombs before people get upset). Hamas found it very easy to sit back and throw brick bats at the Government of the day but once they themselves got into power they had to actually Govern. A much more difficult proposition.

I still think the SNP and the Tories should get together. The Tories should be lined up to support a referendum on independence, offering the same to England, as this would show that they are aligned with their voters North and South of the Border. It also cuts out the iniquitous Lib Dems from the equation. They really are dross and would do or say anything to get a piece of the action.

41

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 09:35:24

Looking back to 1965, at the time of Churchill's State funeral, it could have been argued that 'Great Britain' was indeed, still a world power. However, Common Market membership leading to rejection by the Commonwealth, a 30 year long counter- terrorist war in Northern Ireland, and trades union chaos leading to Thatcher's extreme right-wing government have all accelerated its economic and political decline! During its 17 years in power, the Conservatives, instead of preserving the political integrity of this unitary state have by reason of their divisive economic and political policies, simply accelerated the process of dissolution! The U.K. is no longer a significant world power and is only able to strut the world stage as a major player because it is a client state of America, the world's only true superpower! In 1967, after the SNP won a single seat at Westminster, if you had forecast that some day it would gather enough support to regularly send several M.P.s to Westminster and be H.M. Official Opposition in a devolved Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh you would have been carted off to an asylum! It has only taken the SNP 40 years to reach their present position of political power and if the Unionist parties actually believe this political party and Nationalist movement will disappear like snaw aff a dyke then they are all seriously deceiving themselves ! In another 40 years it will be interesting to see if the United Kingdom still exits in its present territorial form and shape? I very much doubt it! Lachie Todd.

42

CJO,

The Maghreb 11/03/2007 09:38:21

PDT - HMQ owns Balmoral, don't know about Holyrood. Also, the Royals contribute about 50% more to the Exchequer from their own Estates than they take from the tax payer.

Anyway, under a Supreme Soviet of Scotland another land grab could be organised to take all land into public ownership, so don't worry.

43

Upbeat,

11/03/2007 09:43:12

The words of a motor engineer

"Get used to driving the car before changing and modifying everything about it.

On the face of it a sensible bit of advice for the SNP. The biggest worry is that the inexperienced " would be's" of the SNP would rush headlong towards a referedum without even seeing if they could manage the Holyrood system, as it now is, first.

Reassuring the electorate -as Sir Tom appears to be attempting to do,- just could get some doubters back onto the SNP side.

But wait a minute. There is nothing...absolutely nothing stopping the SNP leadership from revising any timescale once they were given office.

So nothing has changed. All we now know is that Sir Tom Farmer has some real doubts that the current bunch of SNP frontrunners have the ability to manage Scotland.

This shows that Sir Tom Farmer is a realist. Like many others he appears to have real doubts about the capability of AS ,NS and several other " leading figures". He seems seriously worried about the SNP's ability to manage the " shop" . So nothing new there. But a wonderful story. And we thought the SNP might take 30 days in April to crack up . Its seems to be happening already

44

morris,

edinburgh 11/03/2007 09:49:04

The sole purpose of the SNP's existence is independence. The SNP kicks people out the door who show anything less than total commitment.This story beggars belief,and smacks of mischief making in the extreme.If there have been misquotations here,or deliberate attempts to mislead ,then I fully expect repercussions, starting with I wont be buying this newspaper again,ever,and I'm hardly buying it at the moment.
I have seen nothing which suggests this, and both Salmond and Sturgeon will be booted out of office if its true !
Don't believe it.

45

Sophia,

South Gyle, Edinburgh 11/03/2007 09:58:42

Independence....Governed by SNP ???? In yer dreams ! Have you ever watched their performance in the Debating Chamber? Like a bunch of unruly schoolchildren...SO unprofessional and as for little Nicola with her lollipop head bobbing about as she spits out words that sound like bullets......rough is the word that springs to mind NOT Deputy Leader.

46

Derick fae Yell,

By the Clock 11/03/2007 09:59:13

Lachie Todd is on the bell. Scotland's re-emergence from incorporating union is a long term historical process, irrespective of the short/medium term strategy or even the existence of the SNP.

Independence in one bound - Good but probably unlikely
Independence in lots o peerie steps - Good. And inevitable.
It's not Time, but Time ticks away. And with every tick, the Brit soul gets weaker and the union flag more faded.
tick
tick
tick

47

Torchwood,

Aberdeen 11/03/2007 10:08:27

No point whatever to the SNP if they are a bunch of hypocrits preparing to dump their main plank for power. I always thought Salmond was an egomaniac.

What businesses are Tom Farmer involved. Sounds like a good idea for a boycott.

48

toryheaven.blogspot.com,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 10:11:10

Well, well, well, our nationalist friends who always adore reading stories here whenever they are pro-independence now all seem to be taking the 'they're making it up' line. You don't like the reporting so much when it doesn't suit you, do you?

49

CJO,

The Maghreb 11/03/2007 10:11:27

#51 Peter - my point is exactly that the Tories need to move away from the "Unionist" in their tiltle because it doesn't help them in England or Scotland. Contrary to how I read your comment, I don't view the SNP as right wing or at all supporting business hence the reason they need personnel of a different persuasion working with them. I have them as exactly the opposite.

Perhaps two parties working together is the wrong answer, maybe what is needed is a party focused on eventual independence focusing on business to drive the economy, similar to Ireland, is the answer? Compromise does however prevent extremism either way and so we may just end up with something that works. Such a party could only come about during the next Holyrood session as this would dilute any protest vote against Labour and their lickspittle chums, the Lib Dems.

50

Jonboy,

11/03/2007 10:12:51

Agree with that Derick.... How do you see the current mood in the Shetlands?

When I was billeted up there in the late seventies/early eighties - Shetland voted a resounding "No" to devolution....

51

Scaramouche,

11/03/2007 10:15:56

Well, of course we knew Independence wasn't going to happen the next day after the Elections! We're not stupid. It takes time to get it done right and for that, you need Take That!!

Just have a little, patience
It will hurt just a bit, like we've lost
It'll cause some frustration
But one day soon all the pain will stop
Hold that thought in your mind at night
Don't get too hard on your emotions

(Chorus)
Cos it takes time
To separate the nations
And all the things that must be done
You'll have to have a little patience

If really wanna start over again,
If you want to have a real nation
The one that you want to defend,

We'll be strong, believe me,
We will move on,
It's complicated but understand me,

Cause we'll need time,
To separate the nations
And all the things that must be done
You'll have to have a little patience

Have a little patience, Yeah

Cause this divide runs so deep,
It's been hard,
But we have to believe,

Have a little patience,
Have a little patience,
Wo-o-o-o

Cos we'll need time,
To separate the nations
And all the things that must be done
You'll have to have a little patience

Yeah, we'll need time,
To separate the nations
And all the things that must be done
You'll have to have a little patience

Just try and have a little ... Patience!!

*adapted from "Patience" by the vocal group, former boy band (and best of the lot!) Take That.

We ain't stupid .... well, I hope not entirely! :)

52

The laird.,

from leadhill,s. 11/03/2007 10:16:49

I,m personnally disappointed about the delay on the Independence issue but I suppose our party leader,s no what they are doing, and have to give them a chance. Understandably some people would indeed want to see how S.N.P. will perform as the main party in scotland so they deserve a chance,they can,t be any worse the the unionist parties, and at least they are free to make certain decission,s to benefit scotland and will not be affraid to look over there shoulder to see if WHITEHALL APPROVESOF THE DECISSION. wee jock McConn didn,t have that privilage, If he had the same power,s the 2, calmac ferries contract would have been awarded to scottish yard,s ALEX SALMOND is,nt running scared of the civil servant,s in whitehall the unalected dictators.

53

morris,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 10:20:44

41
Scotland becoming an independent nation? Scotland WAS an independent nation longer than just about any other prior to the disgraceful events of 1707. Denmark is the only nation I know of personally which is older! There are not many !
Every single nation which exists is "independent".There are numerous nations comparable or smaller than Scotland,and your comments are therefore stupid!
There may be debate about whether Scotland should do this, but its only the village idiot who fails to raise his horizons above the level of "CANNOT ".
Scotland can do this in law,she can do this in terms of economics,and that was never in doubt,so the only possible explanation for your comment is there are idiots living in Scotland who cannot think about anything more ambitious than the status quo!
I agree if everybody was like you it would be true!
Fortunately everybody is not like you,and a recent opinion poll actually showed a majority in favour of independence. We need to unite the people Berty,and it would be better if we woke up before the oil disappears completely.We have already lost 50% of it listening to numpties like you.If you cant help your country could you at least go back to school meantime and learn something,because its pretty obvious you've leaned nothing so far!

54

James Annand,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 10:24:23

Further to Morris' point: "Scotland can do this in law,she can do this in terms of economics..."

If anyone can, Scotland can. After all, we INVENTED economics.

55

Roy,

11/03/2007 10:31:57

An SNP spokesman said: "Sir Tom is absolutely right that the SNP do need to prove ourselves in government and that is exactly what we will do and we will be setting out some of our specific policy proposals at our conference next week.

"The position is clear that this is compatible with holding a referendum on independence within the four-year term."

Does this person not have a name? And what about 'well-placed insider'? Who are these people? Chinese whispers......

Montenegro didn't have all this hassle - and it had to deal with Serbia.

56

morris,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 10:32:14

52
Everybody recognises that Nicola Sturgeon gives Jack McConnel headaches daily.
You can pretend otherwise, but your comments simply do not hold water,and even Labour activists acknowledge this readily.
If you have a serious point to make please do so,but nonsense we don't really need.
If you disagree with what Nicola Sturgeon says fine please tell is why! Don't make yourself look foolish however by suggesting that she performs less because you wish it were so! That is clearly idiotic.

57

JW1,

UK 11/03/2007 10:38:36

Ah well Looks as though we will have to rely on the English again. Majority of them are after wanting Independence.

58

Falsyde,

HIGHLAND SEP 11/03/2007 10:44:08

# 55 Tory heaven. It is part of a cunning plan to provide a little more time to watch your Tories go from withering on the vine to a foot note in history. After last week's party conference / performance can you doubt it?

So that's what's meant by "IT'S TIME"

59

weeshooie,

Livingston 11/03/2007 10:44:10

#20 Scottweb well said.

misinformation, Lying and deceit are the true traits of Labour, Tories and Lib Dems.

where did the swan with HN51 come from at Cellardyke? the locals say we have never had swans here before.

where did the ANTHRAX COME FROM IN THE BORDERS?

where did the H5N1 come from at Bernard Mathews?
where did the foot and mouth really come from a few years ago?
answer: they were all planted to create a situation to show how well the Government could handle them. The problem is they didn't handle them and it all backfired.
if we are a drain on the economy, why do two of the biggest Scottish companies stay here with profits of £15 billion? Why did the Executive not block the sale of Scottish Power?
why are we being lied to all the time, and more to the point why are we accepting it.
time for a major change to SNP

60

Penicuik Laddie,

Paisley now 11/03/2007 10:50:00

The SNP "Source" is Kenny MacAskill. He has been pushing for this for years and was previously the "source" who said "Nationalists will have to console themselves with something less than full independence." - I think thats called unionism Kenny. Do these people honestly believe the Labour Party or Tories sitting in power in London over the first 4 years are going to meakly sit back and watch the SNP make a good job of devolution? If members of their own party can't do it then what hope for Eck? Whitehall will be doing all it can to undermine any nationalist government and will only stop once we kick them out for good. Independence is the only way to effectively govern Scotland.

61

Gill,

West Lothian 11/03/2007 10:50:36

52, Sophia - away back to the shops, hen. You are clueless!
I worked in the Parliament in the last summer of my degree and saw the work of the committees and chamber day in, day out - they have their own telly system showing everything.
The SNP group led by Sturgeon were a class above the Labour's group of grey men in ill fitting suits. They are intellegent (in the main), thought out and able to sting more than an average sentence together - unlike most of Jack's gang.
No agenda here - what's yours?

62

Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 11/03/2007 10:58:53

Typical 'North British Person' pro unionist propaganda as usual. News must be pretty scarce on the ground nowadays when stories like this one appear. This paper has told so many lies in the past that no one believes anything it prints anymore. There is an old Gaidhlig saying: "Cha criedear an firinn o bheul nam breug" "Truth is not believed from a lying mouth..."

Does the drop in circulation figures not warn the owners that there is something wrong with this paper?

Airson Alba
Niall.

63

Derick fae Yell,

By the Clock 11/03/2007 11:01:55

#57
'Shetland' not 'The Shetlands'
When I was growing up in the 1970s, a lot of people in Shetland (incorrectly and due to the diseducation system we have) didn't even consider themselves Scottish. The Unionists both local and imported played (and play) on that for all they were worth - classic divide and rule. I find that insulting.

But like I said, time ticks away. I know a heap of young guys now who follow the Tartan Army round the world - kilts, jimmy wigs the lot! You wouldn't have had that in the 1970s. In the 70s RAF Saxavord was a big employer in Unst - now it's gone with nary a goodbye (400 less tory voters!)

The other big change is that 25% of the population are 'incomers'. Mostly from the mainland of Scotland, but nowadays a lot of refugees from England.

Shetland has its own identity but it is Definitely not a part of England.

64

jennie,

inverness 11/03/2007 11:02:09

#66 weeshooie, I just love your paranoia! The swan with HN51 had died at sea and been washed up - the anthrax in the Borders came from incompletely treated animal skins from Africa (I think) used to make drums, and the HN51 at Bernard Matthews came from Hungary where his food factory sources some of its raw ;) materials and it serves him right. Btw, doesn't it make you seethe when they call it a farm? it's an industrial building where animals are slaughtered and processed in huge quantities in order to make him even richer selling crap to the public. But I digress.
You're right that the government depends on raising the level of paranoia in order to control us, though. The history of Northern Ireland shows that quite clearly. 9/11 and the July bombings were a boon to them. Trust no-one!

65

Finnking,

Finland no dot in name 11/03/2007 11:03:48

27. Bill, Dunblane

28 was the sad wee idiot again. (check the dots!)

The Scotsman's always been the same, in my life. It's when you move away and see how other countries do, you realise that all this "we can't do it" stuff is simple media propaganda. Scotland s a great place, with comparitively diverse people, fantastic architecture, scenery, nature etc. the eductaion system, though not perfect, is just as good, if not better, than other tax zones. There's a humour, a culture, a sense of bellonging in Scotand that is unique.

When you are brought up there, all you hear is negativity from the media about the place (or twee wee stories and jingoism). Strip all of that way and the place and peple have a lot to be proud of.

You don't see the beauty of Scotland when you are there day to day and being made to devour a diet of derisory drivel from the media.

To say that Scotland can't go alone is an empty statement. Democratic process works best when it's closest to the peole it is supposed to represent. Wealth in the south do not want Scotland to go it alone because they, as in 300 years ago, don't want 'good practice' on the door step. That would mean that their herd would want some liberty too.

As an anarchist, I really don't care for government per se, however, my experience in Scandinavia bolsters my opinion that the people are better off when the seat of government is more accountable. That is best done closer to the culture it should represent.

The article above is a travesty of journalism. I agree,let's not forget their names, those neo-rogues in a nation.

Sorry for typos and bad spelling:can't find my glasses!

Beware the Trolls adding a dot to the name.

66

Aesop,

Leith 11/03/2007 11:04:45

How to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (c) Alex Salmond.

What the hell are these idiots thinking about? The rise of the SNP has been as a dircet result in a grwoth in support for Independence.

I wonder if Salmond's handlers have finally got to him?

67

Sedov,

Scotland 11/03/2007 11:25:56

Now then, for months I have warned both the diehards of nationalism and those disaffected Labour supporters who are thinking of voting for the SNP that if the SNP got into a position of power then the pressures of the global economy would challenge their dreams of so called independence and that the SNP would end up like all the other mainstream parties, breaking promises and comprimising their ideals and programme. However, to the credit of the SNP, they are way in advance of that process and are already beginning to realise that an independent Scotland is far from being acheived thus they are making their compromises in advance. Make no mistake, whatever excuses the SNP leadership are giving, this is a climbdown.This climbdown says it all for me and I hope now that the waverers will now see through this petty bourgoise party and return to their roots by putting pressure on the traditional party of workers, the Labour Party, to deliver. - this is only the beginning of the end for the SNP. Scotland cannot afford to be let down yet again, reject them and begin the task of rebuilding the Labour Party from the bottom up.

68

paul the binman,

11/03/2007 11:27:23

Sir Tom should know after all "he who pays the pipper",still he is one SNP supporter who really does live in Scotlsnd I suppose

69

Darryl Matheson,

Elgin, Morayshire 11/03/2007 11:31:38

If the SNP are not for independence (at least in the first 5 years) what are they for given that they have opposed only 8 government bills in 8 years.

Seems like Alex Salmond's only policy is to get himself into power.

70

open,

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS 11/03/2007 11:33:53

The SNP are presently controlled in Scotland by LAWYER Nicola Sturgeon.Forget Salmond he is to busy in London rubbing shoulders with the NWO brigade of millionaires that will fund his rise to power.

We will see the same hijacking of our legislation like the previous lawyer Donald Dewar who brought in devolution ,not to ensure justice but for the TOTAL financial gain of ALL who control our UTTERLY CORRUPT court system.

Our parliament only needs 8 lawyers sitting on the two most powerful committees justice 1&2 ensuring all legal legislation is biased in favour of the Law Society of Scotland.Our Freedom of Information system is also controlled by lawyers sitting spying on us in every area of Scotland.

What they do with the info gathered against us is HORRIFIC if you have ever faced being asset stripped in those courts.

Read some of the many victims evidence at

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/his...

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/jus...

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/jus...

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/jus...

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/jus...

And read how they chemically lobomize someone who DARES challenge this EVIL system.

Report Unsuitable

71

morris,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 11:37:42

75
If the SNP confines in Sir Tom Farmer (who is not even a member as far as I know),before its own members I will be very very surprised.
The party is a coalition of breakaway parties from Labour and Tory and independence was the common desire which brought them together in the first place. They have spent the last 50 years trying to get to where they are now.If you seriously believe that the SNP will now abandon independence in front of an open goal then you are even more stupid than I accused you of previously!
Nothing has changed in the SNP's agenda. What has changed is that a majority of Scots are now favouring independence,and the Unionists have a few weeks left to try and stop what now has so much momentum it CANT be stopped!Waken up!
Your own common sense should tell you this!

72

Derick fae Yell,

By the Clock 11/03/2007 11:39:38

tick
tick
tick
tick

73

BillyB,

falkirk 11/03/2007 11:41:19

Stay calm fundies. use your brains for once. what has happened other than sir tom unoqivically back the snp for the first time? In the past he has said his dosh was just to even up the odds.
We are on trial here. will we let an SoS spin throw us and have us denouncing "alex the traitor" or will we keep our eyes on the prize, now within touching distance?

74

BigRed,

AccurateEast 11/03/2007 11:42:00

It's time....to decide it's nowhere near time. Yeah!!!!

75

paul the binman,

11/03/2007 11:47:12

vote now for independance,well vote now for it soon,or vote now for it in the future.No wait a minute,vote now for a future that may contain a form of independance of some kind at a date to be arranged,yep thats it,and its catchy too....

76

Jonboy,

11/03/2007 11:58:24

Thanks for the update, Derick...

My memories of Shetland, apart from Hom Bru & Yorkie, had much to do with the then SIC convener, Ian Clarke, negotiating directly with Westminster & the oil companies, rather than the innefectual Scottish Office, over "Shetland's oil"

Hope Stephen Spence is still around on Yell composing and playing zillions of fiddle tunes....

77

Royster,

11/03/2007 12:00:05

It's time to er... beat about the bush.

78

Sue (granddaughter of a Glaswegian engineer),

Twyford 11/03/2007 12:00:36

So you can buy policy with party funding at the SNP. That is quite disgusting and asks the question of what the party stands for. They stand for what they are paid to stand for, is that right? If they got paid by the Mafia would they be in favour of legalising organised crime?
For the SNP thirty pieces of silver adds up to £100,000 in 2007.

79

shivago8,

livingston 11/03/2007 12:09:09

ALEX,THE PAPER HAS GOT IT WRONG.IT IS NOT RETHINK INDEPENDENCE,IT IS THINK INDEPENDENCE.GET ON TO THEM.

80

I am Legion, for we are Many..,

ALBA 11/03/2007 12:25:07

Derrick fae Yell....I think we shared a bus tae Minsk?

This thread excellently exposes the London Labour disinformation for what it is. Ironically, SoS Comments' is to be congratulated for this counter to the London Democratic Deficit.

Most fowk would understand that voting SNP on Thurs 3/5 will not bring Independence on Fri 4/5....extremely effectively removing one of London Labours biggest scare tactics.

Come on in !! The water's lovely!!!!

81

livilion,

livingston 11/03/2007 12:26:12

Consider the political scene by the new year.

SNP win the lion's share of seats at Holyrood in May.

The Conservatives join the Lib-Lab pact in a coallition Executive to prevent Alex Salmond from becoming First Minister and presenting his referendum to the Scottish Electorate.

English local elections have gone badly for Tony Bliar and he is forced to immediately abdicate in favour of Gordy 'John Bull' Broon.

Broon loses his first test of confidence in Westminster and New Old Labour self destructs in a wave of back stabbing and score settling.

A general election will then be called.

If a straight majority of Scottish seats then falls to the SNP they will have the mandate they require for starting UDI.

Alex Salmond now only needs to remain silent if he wants and the whole jing bang will just fall into his lap.

82

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 11/03/2007 12:35:15

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk

see the mess Labour have made of crime and anti-social behaviour

www.anti-socialbritain.co.uk

83

Neil,

9% Growth Party 11/03/2007 12:44:29

A;ex salmond is going to have to confirm or deny this. If the SNP go into an election with this nod 7 wink those worried about being bounced into separation (like me) will be barely reasssured while the fundamentalists won't be happy either.

Nonetheless if this is true it is good news. Not just because the SNP have the Millenium will come about with independence but also because they must be fairly confident they WILL be able to run the country competently & in particular achieve growth.

Mind you if they stick to present power policy Hunterston will be closing in exactly 4 years which will make blackouts imminent & thus separation an even more scary option. Hopefully they will change their policy on hypothermia too.

84

Faye,

11/03/2007 12:46:33

#20 Scottwebb.
"We are being sprayed daily with Chemtrails laden with heavy metals"

And the treatment for cancer is full of heavy metals!

Just think, all those heavy metals going into the water supply and people wonder why folks are going down with cancer!

85

Xhile,

backofbeyond 11/03/2007 13:00:57

I'm afraid that if this 'news' isn't immediately and vehemently denied by Alex Salmond the SNP will suffer badly in the election.
Planning for an election on the basis that nothing will be done on the main plank of your policy for four years is ridiculous.
Either Sir Tom Farmer has let the cat out of the bag or he's been got at!
Oh and er, one more poem from Scaramouche will probably make me slit my wrists.

86

The laird.,

from leadhill,s. 11/03/2007 13:06:47

TO CEBR'@ AND THE N/L POLITICAL NUMPTIES,
IN THE REAL WORLD I CAN,T SEE ANY REASON WHY LONDON SHOULD CONTINUE SUBSIDISING ,SCOTLAND, WALES AND N/I, I CANT IMAGINE THIS HAPPENING ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, IF THE ECONOMICS ARE CORRECT ENGLAND HAVE NO OBLIGATION WHAT SO EVER TO PUT THERE ECONOMY UNDER PRESSURE TO PROP UP LAME DUCK NEIBOUR,S NO WONDER THE WESTMINSTER GOVERNMENT IT 550 MILLION IN THE RED. I CAN ONLY CONCLUDE THAT THE LONDON GOVERNMENT ARE MAD OR SOMEONE OF THE UNIONIST CONTROL FREAKS ARE TELLING A LARGE AMOUNT OF PORKIES, TO PROVE A POINT WHY DON,T THEY RELEASE THE LATEST MANDATE TO BE PRODUCED THE ONE THEY REFUSE TO PUBLISH UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION OR PERHAP,S THAT,S GOING INTO THE ARCIVES THE SAME AS THE McCRONE REPORT.BLIND UNIONIST SUPPORTER,S WAKE UP TO WHAT,S GOING ON HEAR.

87

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 11/03/2007 13:07:33

OOH this story has got me really scared maybe I shouldn't vote SNP then. NOT!!!

88

barbour,

Perth 11/03/2007 13:08:39

We don't believe any financial report either pro or anti we can't believe any newspaper report,can't put any credibility on any politician,we want independance we think,but not sure how or when or deliverd by whome,we dislike the English and depending on where in Scotlad we live,we can't trust:- the,weegies,highlanders,sassenachs,westies,fifers,(can't argue with that though),borderes,Macdonalds,Campbells Dundee folk.
Everything we read is a lie,including this post,I think.
To an outsider,not the "plastic jocks" who have skinned out but are full of criticism from afar, we must appear to reinforce our profile as being a nation of a "whinging ungrateful backstabbing insignificant,wee chippy nation not worth a second serious glance"
For once in our nations life why can't we disregard the Act of Union its past,put all the hurt,real or imaginary behind us and unite under a policy displaying what we The Scottish Nation want.
Not in doggeral but in real words that mean something and people will take seriously.

89

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 13:13:30

Comment@92 Faye, hi there.....on this link is a wee picture of what it looks like on an average day over the skies of the UK :)http://www.stopchemtrailsuk.bravehost.com/

90

Alamo,

Glasgow 11/03/2007 13:17:56

I would far rather we had a United Kingdom, where all constituent countries respect each other...one country working as one, whilst still RESPECTING our own individual national identities.
But unfortunately this will never happen because of the attitude of some ( not all ) English people, and this is why I decided many years ago , I would rather live in a completely independent Scotland, and not in an English colony.

Here are some examples of this attitude, which some of you will no doubt deny exists...........
1) The media
BBC ( BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation )
MAIN headline on the news just before the World cup...some English player, who later turned out to be an overpaid thug, had a foot problem .Doesn't matter if a major story concerning Scotland isn't mentioned, as England's chances in the World Cup are of far more importance to the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation.
If a tv channel requires a drunk in a drama, then that drunk is usually Scottish.
2) Money
Refusal in MANY ( not all) cases to accept other BRITISH currencies, although theirs is welcome without question in the other BRITISH countries.
3) Politics
English MP's suddenly don't like Scottish MP's voting on "English only" matters. Somehow it doesn’t seem to register with them that English MP’s have been voting on "Scottish only" matters since 1707.

4) Geography knowledge
Complete ignorance of the other countries of the UK. Oh you come from Edinburgh do you ? That’s in Scotland isn’t it ?
1)You’ll know my cousin in Inverness then
2) Do you HAVE to eat haggis every day ?
3) What time does the Loch Ness monster get fed?
4) Do you have television up there yet ?
Etc etc

91

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 13:20:14

And on this site is probably the most comprehensive information on the subject.....we are being prepped up for culling :) http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm

92

Steve,

Bo'ness 11/03/2007 13:22:45

Last week this paper said Salmond would keep his Westminster job if he got into Holyrood.

This week it's saying the SNP will ditch independence until the second term of government.

Next week.... who knows? SNP to slaughter the first-born? How about world domination?

All from high profile sources, of course. Aye right.
More spin and lies from SoS. THIS PAPER ISNT FIT FOR WRAPPING YOUR FISH SUPPER!

93

Sedov,

Scotland 11/03/2007 13:25:37

#90 Jeff - OK Jeff anyone can Labour bash and believe me I can bash Labour better than anyone -but your bashing seems to be a cover for you not addressing the latest climbdown from the NATS - is it cos you have no real answer to what is happening in your own party?

94

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 13:26:44

Comment@92 and here is a 27 minute brilliantly done vid on the spraying :)http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-34328948283042...

95

The laird.,

from leadhill,s. 11/03/2007 13:27:24

94 ABERJAMES,
AGREE ENTIRELY,
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE S.N.P. AND THEUNIONIST PARTIES AS YOU SAY S.N.P. DOS,NT NEED TO LOOK OVER THER SHOULDER TO GET APPROVAL FROM LONDON THAT,S THE MAJOR DIFFERENCE, WEE JOCK McCONNEL WAS HEERT TO MAKE ANY DECISSION,S INCASE WHITEHALL DISAPROOVED, YOU SEEN WHAT HAPPENED TO HENRY MCLEISH WHEN HE DEFIED WHITEHALL AND INTRODUCED FREE CARE FOR THE ELDERLY,AGAINST THE WISHES OF WHITEHALL, THE DIRTY TRICKS BRIGADE,PULLED OUT THE DIRTY WASHING , REGARD,S THE RENT FOR THE OFFICES,IN GLENROTHES AND EVENTUALY GOT RIDD OF HIM THAT,S WHY THESE CROOKES ARE SO PARTY ORIOTATED THEY ALL HAVE GHOST,S IN THE CUBBOARD, THATS WHY THEY TOE THE PARTY LINE THERE ALL INVESTING THERE MONEY BUYING SEVERAL DIFFERENT HOUSES TONY HIMSELF HAS BOUGH PROPERTY IN ECCESS OF 4 MILLION POUND,S BLUE LABOUR, AT LEAST YOU NO HOW YOU STAND WITH TORIES YOU GET NOTHING ,AND THE ONLY THING YOU GET FROM N/LABOUR ARE LIES, ROLL ON ELECTION DAY MAY 3RD.

96

M C,

Glasgow 11/03/2007 13:33:23

I thought the Daily Record was bad. The Scotsman truly is laughable...... At the SNP conference you will find Alex reiterating the SNP's commitment to a referendum in the first four years of an SNP led Executive.

This is upfront and honest politics, allowing the people of Scotland to decide on whether their country should become independent. Labour claim it is independence by the back door?? How on earth is allowing the poeple to chose independence by the back door?? Labour should talk about things they understand, such as war and mass murder by the back door.

Also, I listened to gordon Jackson today when the four main political parties were invited to the Orange Lodge. He explained to the congregation that he would not vote for independence, even if the SNP could convince him it would work! Worse still he pointed out he would not vote for independence if it even meant more money in his pocket.

This shows Labour are now not interested in ending poverty in Scotland and do not want the Scottish electorate to better there standard of living, if it means seperating the Union.

UNBELIEVABLE.....doesnt begin to describe! It is due to these comments, a lack 'of thinkers' in the Labour party and a realisation within the electorate that independence can and will work, that the Scottish Labour party will be out of office in May. And finally we can get to wrk on building Scotlands future.

97

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 11/03/2007 13:36:15

What have stupid contrail conspiracy theories got to do with Scottish Independance ? Unless of course you think Alex Salmond is an Alien who's trying to get into office in order to protect us all from the Illuminati.

98

Sedov,

Scotland 11/03/2007 13:37:48

#104 Why do you have to SHOUT your posts?

99

morris,

11/03/2007 13:39:18

Has it ever occurred to you numb skulls that the best person to ask about the SNP is the SNP! You listen to every piece of drivel the Unionists offer !

Remember Its NOT Scotland's oil! (Except that it is)London divided the North Sea themselves!
We will have order posts and customs(NO we wont,EU countries trade with each other and Norway and Sweden s free crossing arrangement was always intended anyway )

Scotland cannot survive on her own. The McCrone Report confirms that every single one of you who has been voting Tory Labour or Liberal have been made idiots of!
Who and whats next I wonder.
There is absolutely NOTHING of the Unionists claims in the last thirty years which have not been ridiculed into oblivion and you lot still don't realise you have been taken for a ride! Waken up!

100

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 11/03/2007 13:44:41

109. Of course we know the best people to ask are the SNP but that would spoil all the fun of posting messages on the Scotsman site. Everyone knows the Scotsman is labour biased and that is why we use the comments area to help expose and debunk the lies being promoted by the papers editors and their Labour party chums.

101

barbour,

Perth 11/03/2007 13:46:50

#99 Alamo
I used to be paranoic,but now I think people just pick on me.
You really should get out a bit more pal.

102

Prinzowhales,

North Carolina 11/03/2007 13:50:47

Its not surprising that some people who have been rode hard and put up wet under the domination of a foreign ruler might have little confidence in themselves to elect their own leaders who will govern in their name alone...but, when those people are the leaders of the 'nationalist' movement...if they would only exchange one cruel rider for another, then they have already proven themselves unfit to govern...or fit to govern after the manner of Labour...if Scotland wanted leaders who would prostitute the movement for a paltry 100,000 pounds, then it is time to start discussing a change in leadership. Surely one hundred thousand Scottish patriots could be found to pitch in a bob a head to replace Farmer's contribution...if not, then you might as well hang it up now and stop wasting your time with the idea of independence, because you certainly don't deserve it.

The war in Iraq has gone on for around four years...in America they are trying to soft sell another two years...and before that time is up, I'm sure the Establishment will be peddling a new reason for the occupation to continue. Your own nationalist leadership is trying to sell you on accepting four more years of City rule...if the last few hundred years were so good, why not beg for forty more years...then you should be fit for freedom then...or, better yet 400 years! That should really do the trick!

103

DaveJ,

Perthshire 11/03/2007 14:01:17

In reality kicking independence into the long grass will greatly enhance the appeal of the SNP in May and beyond.

Scotland wants change and radical change, especially economically. A Holyrood administration free from external party influence can cut its own furrow and lead Scotland for Scotland. The SNP is best placed to deliver that. However, the party has to realise that seeking power for principles can limit appeal. Whereas, seeking principles for power makes you electable. It's the difference between an idealist and a politician.

UK Labour was smart enough deal with the loony left and the sacred cow of clause 4. Both Clinton and Blair realised that you devise policies for power not the reverse; you have to repackage to become electable. In this sense the SNP has to have its Clause 4 moment. It has to develop policies with broad appeal to the sceptical and moderate mind. It has to think about successive terms of successful majority government and those sacred cows.

The irony is that a successful SNP government will ease the disenchantment that cries independence. That disenchantment is presently at an all time high, yet it is barely sufficient to carry the day and a successful SNP government will not increase it.

I'd take a lead from the Welsh Nats and try the long grass. The sacred cows will enjoy it.

104

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 11/03/2007 14:02:12

102 Sedov

Your John and his 'wee' campaign has no chance of becoming Labour leader ... and as you are a Unionist who has no self-belief in Scotland to determine it's own affairs I don't think I need to be concerned with anything you have to say on Independence.

Now go back home and prepare to be governed (albeit for a short period) but Gordon 'Im British, Scottish, English' Brown.

Your precious Labour party are corrupt to the very core and the electorate in both England and Scotland have realised it.

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk

p.s. anyone can post messages :-)

105

CJO,

The Maghreb 11/03/2007 14:05:21

Independence, eventually, will have a downside to it. "Scotland's Oil", well the bit North of the Central and Southern sectors of the UKCS which England gets given by the international treaties on boundaries and the bit that Shetland keeps for itself, may well be on its last legs. England however will have been weened off dependency on oil revenue given the global clout of the City of London.

By then, would they really care what the Scots thought about independence or not? Believe it, Scotland will become independent and in relative terms quite soon. Not because of the persuasive arguments of the SNP but because the English don't want us anymore.

The only people that truly don't want Scotland and England to split are the Labour party. The Tories would love it. England would never have a Labour government again.

106

Edward,

11/03/2007 14:13:47

Yet another made up story from a reporter, who is devoid of ideas that writes for a paper thats alos devoid of ideas
I remember when the Scottish press, were worth something, now there not even good enough to wrap my fish supper in!
Sorry Eddie but your not good enough

107

CJO,

The Maghreb 11/03/2007 14:13:47

#111 - in resposnse to your paranoic comment - Just because your are paranoid, doesn't mean we are not out to get you!

108

IWright,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 14:14:54

Interesting article!
Who are all these SNP "insiders", "sources" and "senior figures" the unionist media always find to make convenient remarks?
And if there are so many, and what they say is uncontroversial and more or less policy, why do they have to be anonymous?

109

Edward,

11/03/2007 14:16:09

#116 CJO
Your talking crap
Obviously as clueless as the rest of your unionist chums
You really nead to check your fcats before spouting that rubbish

110

IWright,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 14:19:05

And the article is by Eddie Barnes, he who linked the Cumbria train crash to tartan terrorism. Bit embarassing that, wasn't it Mr. Barnes? Bet your handlers were a wee bit annoyed with you. Is this your comeback?

111

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 14:24:03

Comment@114 BobDown, why don't you use some of that vast intellect and go find out yourself, your posts are usually as much use as a cheese grater in an ice flow :)

112

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 11/03/2007 14:25:44

Sturgeon And Salmond

I have never met such Ignorant MSPs in my life, Sturgeon I E-Mailed, she never answered,
Went to her office she was running out the door 15 minutes early and would not see me saying she was late for her next appointment, What a Joke??
Salmond i E-Mailed to complain of sturgeon and MacAskills Ignorance he never answered.
I was asking them to call for enquiry into conduct of SCCRC,
What is it that makes them all shake in their boots when this SCCRC is mentioned.
See protest outside SCCRCs office Renfield St Glasgow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WhJUjhequ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_GPX41Yt9U

113

Alistair Stewart,

WHERE IS JOKE MCCONNELL ? 11/03/2007 14:30:25

The leader of the Scottish Executive, Jack McConnell, has been absent from the past seven major debates in Scotland and the BBC's Question Time has tried to lure him on to the programme 15 times without success!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dl5nWb4hvg

114

morris,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 14:32:05

116
I'm curious about your sources of information.I seek clarification rather than contest what you say.
Shetland is not a nation and she goes where Scotland (which she is part of) goes. The oil revenues( which were used to bribe Shetland by Westminster) would become Scotland's, if from our territorial water and any arrangement which Shetland currently enjoys with Westminster might be still applicable with an Edinburgh government,but the arrangement would cease with Westminster presumably since they would be in different countries. As far as I am aware Shetland would retain nothing automatically (but if you know otherwise please educate us)I'm definitely fascinated by this!
Ive heard many claims and ,many presumptions about what would happen.Ive still not seen any proof of anything other than what the SNP has claimed for years now.
Do you know something the rest do not?

115

DaveJ,

Perthshire 11/03/2007 14:33:25

A lot has been said about the Scotsman and bias.

Newspapers in a way carry out an opinion pole every day. Its called the circulation. People buy and read stories they empathise with and as a result newspapers print them.

So the paper is opening a window on public opinion. Calling it biased does not change that opinion.

Smart political parties work on their relationship with the media to gain favourable reporting.

So if a political party does not like what it reads in the Scotsman, its because it does not have public opinion on its side or it cannot get the paper to influence it.

116

Sedov,

Scotland 11/03/2007 14:34:44

#115 Jeff - you still have not adressed the issue.

117

Jokes to Miracles,

Scotland 11/03/2007 14:35:45

This story reads to me like an admission by the SNP that they have no idea how to govern Scotland but they are asking the Scottish people to trust them with the power to try.

God only knows what will happen if Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon get into power. One thing for sure, they certainly don't know themselves.

They are nothing but a bunch of 'wannabees' who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag - if it had to be done honestly.

118

Alistair Stewart,

WHERE IS JOKE MCCONNELL ? 11/03/2007 14:37:31

-127 Sedov

A flimsy report in the Scotsman - not proved.
Let's address YOUR support for LABOUR shall we - are you proud to support the most corrupt and inept party in modern history?

Perhaps you are actually PROUD of new Labour's 'achievements'??

119

Alistair Stewart,

Brown defends private dentist visit 11/03/2007 14:38:48
120

Edward,

11/03/2007 14:39:12

#128 Jokes to Miracles
Spoken like a true blue Labour supporter
Its the kind of crap they said about Tony Blair
But the fact is this story isnt actually based on fact, so why treat it as such?

121

Alistair Stewart,

Blair is called to account over abandoned troops 11/03/2007 14:40:54

Blair is called to account over abandoned troops

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2347521.ece

122

Alistair Stewart,

some recent examples of LABOUR waste 11/03/2007 14:46:32

some recent examples of LABOUR waste, we learn this week that

Spending on temporary staff by Whitehall has run up a bill of £200 million over the past four years at a time when the Government is supposed to be firing thousands of civil servants

The Passport Service has spent almost half a million pounds of public funds – just to change its name.

Regional development agency One NorthEast has committed itself to spending up to £63,000 leading a delegation of property professionals for a four-day conference on the French Riviera.

A group of senior Royal Bolton Hospital managers is to travel to Barcelona for a three-day conference at a cost of almost £3,000 - despite hospital bosses preparing to axe 95 jobs to balance the books

A senior local government official is to be paid more than £100,000 in taxpayers' money on top of a £200,000 retirement package after convincing councillors to make him redundant.

vote labour = corruption and waste

123

Ken,

11/03/2007 14:49:39

As a snp member for 10 years, I would be mortified if this story was true. I await an 'official' reply, not an annon spokesperson.
If it is true, then I for one, will abandon the party and look elsewhere.
Independence first is a good organisation that WILL push for a referendum on Independence, maybe my energy would be best put to that.
I await a clear message from the snp.

124

Alistair Stewart,

THE LAST PRIME MINISTER OF SCOTLAND ? 11/03/2007 14:50:08
125

Ken,

11/03/2007 14:54:52

Nice Jeff :-)
Further, the snp are keen to push aside Solidarity and the SSP re Independence, if this is true there is more than a bit of hypocricy here, still I await in interest.
By the way, even if the snp can form an administration with the liberals they would have four years of the press putting them down.
If, as I suspect, the snp are the largest party, the liberals will still go back with labour in any case. Maybe that would be the best option politically, but NOT for the public

126

Jokes to Miracles,

Scotland 11/03/2007 14:55:45

Edward #131. Wrong again.

I won't be voting for Labour, nor the Lib-Dems, nor the Tories, nor the Greens, nor the SSP, nor Solidarity, nor the Pensioners Party and I'm not an Independent. If I do vote at all, who does that leave?

You see I'm a hopeless gambler. If I backed one horse in a two horse race, the other horse would win.

Now you can tell me not to vote for the SNP.

127

Ross,

11/03/2007 14:56:01

The Scotsman campaign against SNP continues, they seem to be trying everything at the moment, with something new everyday in an attempt to change the SNP supporters with garbage.

128

siusaidh,

11/03/2007 14:58:28

Either it's a bad reported story from the Scotsman or the SNP are trying to commit suicide ......
Is it really that Farmers money's talking....

The only way to make big changes is for Scotland to govern itself and get independence from the rest of the UK.Why put it off?
Just to please the unionist's?

129

Media 1,

11/03/2007 15:07:25

hahahaha! As I have been saying for months....

Say no to independence! Now even the SNP are listening. Thank god for that eh

130

James,

Dundee 11/03/2007 15:18:50

#137 There's always Mev Brown?

131

James,

Dundee 11/03/2007 15:19:59

#139
Like Herpes, you will never go away!

132

Sedov,

Scotland 11/03/2007 15:22:27

#129 Jeff - You still not addressed the issue that was the subject of the article - whats the matter are you getting nervous that the SNP are going to blow the best chance that they have ever had of gaining power? You are talk and no walk you Nats.

133

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 11/03/2007 15:39:10

142 - SEDOV

Nothing to answer Sedov - how about you admitting you vote for a corrupt party?

134

Media 1,

11/03/2007 15:45:55

#141 James: Cmon, you know independence is a bad ideas as do the SNP!

Wake up, I have been saying it for months........INDEPENDENCE is a no go

135

Ken,

11/03/2007 15:49:44

maybe there should be a new party for Independence, the left the right and the middle want it, what we do not want is career politicians.

136

Alistair Stewart,

Bishop declares anti-Labour vote 11/03/2007 15:57:38

Scottish Bishop declares anti-Labour vote

One of Scotland's most senior Catholics has declared he will not vote Labour in May's Holyrood elections.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6439723.stm

137

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 11/03/2007 15:58:41

Seems the name DEVINE is becoming a bad word for Labour!!!

138

M C,

Glasgow 11/03/2007 16:02:10

I can confirm this story as false.

As I stated earier, Alex and Nicola will be reiterating that within the first four years of an SNP led executive, there will be a referendum on independence and Scotlands future. SNP suuporters need not be worried by the rediculous tripe published in the Scotsman.

As for the unionists posting their nonsense on this website......please come up with some new material, the old stuff just aint washing with anyone!

139

BillyB,

falkirk 11/03/2007 16:02:21

why are fundies so dense, so one dimensional?

140

malcolmcean,

11/03/2007 16:14:00

Is this some sort of joke story?

The SNP have said for the past year that they will not hold a referendum until the end of the parliamentary session.

The white paper will be published in the first year and then the referendum will be held at the end of the parliamentary session. This is what Alex Salmond said on BBC Question Time a few weeks ago and has been saying for quite some time.

What a total non-story.

I must admit, though, that I understand why they have printed this silly piece: it is to allow silly people like our South African exile to pretend that they did not already know this.

141

Lauwrie,

England . 11/03/2007 16:16:13

All those years of anti English rhetoric .

All that guff about all that wonderful supposed Scottish potential - just being held back by the English .

All those coments re " cringe " - they were correct .

In the end Salmond is accepting the verdict of 1706

- Scotland can't hack it alone and needs auntie England to run to if things get sticky .

The gales of laughter in England are just starting .

143

paul the binman,

11/03/2007 16:18:47

"MAYBE TOMOROW"what a great song,could the SNP get the Steriophonics to sing it at the ends of their conferences

144

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 11/03/2007 16:22:11

151 - Lauwrie

... the only gale is the wind coming from your orifice

which end isn't quite clear but the end result is the same!

145

thatscottishwitch,

11/03/2007 16:26:12

Be careful, thatscottishwoman was banned because she is a Troll and is using a new Troll name today it's

"Cutty Sark, the kirkyard"

146

weeshooie,

Livingston 11/03/2007 16:34:02

Jennie Inverses. perhaps I am paranoid, but is it any wonder. you cannot believe a word you hear or read today. they all tell so many lies, it becomes difficult to listen to these people and not wonder what hidden agenda is behind what they say.


there is an explanation for everything I mentioned, but there are also alternatives.

why do we refer to it as road tax for your car, when only 25% of what you spend on taxing your car is actually spent on roads. why do we call it Council tax, when 25 pence in every pound of that tax goes straight towards council employees pensions.
why do we call the tax on alcohol and cigarettes duty, when it plainly designed to try and stop people using it.
why do we have duty, excise tax and VAT on petrol when all it is, is a mans of raising funds for the Chancellors war chest at 80p in the pound.
why do we have VAT on toiletries when the whole idea is a load of crap anyway.
why do our senior citizens have to pay VAT or tax on anything after having worked all their lives for the chancellor to award them an extra 25 when they reach 80, and then take it back off their pension credit. that exercise alone costs 100 times more than the initial 25p increase.
why am I paranoid, because I am.

147

CEBR,

11/03/2007 16:38:31

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/his...

Col 113

Professor Stevely: Students from Germany or France do not pay a fee. We are not allowed to discriminate against other countries in the European Union, but we can discriminate against other countries within the United Kingdom.

Mr Baker: That answers my point well

148

Dave M,

11/03/2007 16:38:37

Nothing to see here.

Move along now...

149

IWright,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 16:43:21

#156
weeshooie - you raise a really important issue - people have wised up to the mainstream media and how they will not report some news, create news out of nothing or seriously distort the news. And we have politicians that most of the electorate simply don't trust, based on experience. Governments lie, and mislead as well as tell the truth. Who do we trust?

With events like 9/11 do you believe the official conspiracy theory, one version of the unofficial conspiracy theory or neither?

BTW Why do we pay tax on income from savings when the money we saved has already been taxed?

150

The Gorm,

Cda 11/03/2007 16:45:55

#99 Alamo---YA CALLS THEM LIKE YA SEES THEM.

151

Doh,

11/03/2007 16:47:28

I feel sorry for the SNP fanatics who post on this board - they must be feeling pretty silly.

Of course they can continue to beleive what they want but - but walk around - Scotland doesnt feel like a country about to declare UDI.

The people are free and happy with the home rule settlement. They are just unhappy about Tony Blair.

Scotland has been part of the Union for longer than the USA has existed.
Scotland seperating makes as much sense as New York leaving the USA.

Scarmouche - poor effort - what about something a bit more biting -

To be bought and sold for farmers gold...

152

The Gorm,

Cda 11/03/2007 16:50:32

Sorry about the "shouting"-- Damned Caps Lock.

153

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 11/03/2007 16:51:17

Among the two thirds of so called business leaders who publicly broadcast "on behalf of his shareholders" (with no evidence of having consulted them) that his company had no faith in the Scots ability to self govern through Independence, was one Hew Balfour chief exec. of Havelock Ellis.

Not surprisingly, as an English born, Sandhurst educated ex-military man with a family pedigree studded with knighthoods (his hasn't come yet)...he is no friend of the SNP or the more than half the Scottish population who would vote for them. He quotes " Mine is a purely economic argument, proposing that the economic situation that will prevail in an independent Scotland will be less attractive" and adds "It will involve significant administrative burdens and introduce barriers and costs that don't currently exist"
The latter quote from a man who when his shop-fitting business in Scotland was flagging launched a successful company expansion in the Middle East despite a multitude of complex barriers of customs, currencies and languages.

Despite his blue blood heritage Balfour is a good friend of New Labour who devised the PFI (Private Finance Initiative) as authorities pumped millions into upgrading schools. Havelock Europa has captured every PFI education project north of the Border and Balfour says that track record gives the company a particular advantage, which it intends to exploit fully in coming years as English education PFI projects come online.

Quotes Balfour "To dance round the totem pole of education, education, education". This is one Blairite slogan which remains as popular with the adherents of Gordon Brown as with David Cameron and it certainly remains music to the ears of Dunfermline-based Havelock, owner of ESA McIntosh, the UK market leader in fitted furniture and equipment for schools.

So despite your Scottish tax dollars helping to fill the coffers of this man's company you are not cons

154

Dave M,

11/03/2007 16:51:29

161 Doh

Yeah, thats it!

We're all unhappy with Blair and once he's gone to jail we'll all be happy again.

Thanks for the sympathy though.

155

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 17:04:16

"Calm down, it's only a commercial"

If I recall correctly, the Hootsman stable has been conducting it's own election campaign on behalf of all the political parties before the campaign has begun.

Did they not start off by insinuating that it was about independence and putting words into everyones mouths? This is their equivalent of Fantasy Golf - Fantasy Politics.

Let's all just wait until they stop wetting their pants prematurely and get down to the real dirty business of being a biased unionist publication when the election campaign actually gets underway.

(Print Screen)

156

Ken,

11/03/2007 17:22:00

FROM SNP HQ JUST NOW :-)

You may have seen the front page story in Scotland on Sunday today, based on an interview with Sir Tom Farmer and unnamed SNP “sources”. The following statement is the clear and consistent position of the Party, and has been communicated to the Scottish media last night and today:

“Sir Tom is absolutely right that the SNP do need to prove ourselves in government and that is exactly what we will do. We will be setting out a range of positive policy proposals at our conference next week to take Scotland forward.

“The position is clear that this is compatible with holding a referendum on independence within the 4-year term.

“That policy is clear and unchanged. We will prove ourselves in government and deliver a referendum within the 4-year term.”

157

kameroon,

lanarkshire 11/03/2007 17:23:27

76 Darryl
No he's not he's in it to lose,ya numpty-heid.

158

Sanny,

Portugal (until May) 11/03/2007 17:27:31

I’d be careful about reading too much into this article. I’d like to hear an official statement by the SNP giving a clear outline of their thinking. With the Election looming there is much rumor and misinformation designed to cause doubt.

Looking at the practicalities of the situation, the electoral PR system is likely to achieve its designed purpose, which was to prevent an SNP government by a clear majority. Therefore, it may be necessary to join forces with those political prostitutes the LibDems – their body (vote) is anyone’s if the price is right. If the price is to delay the Referendum then so be it but Scotland must know it is the LibDems who are responsible for the delay. That will play well for their demise at the next election.

Of course it is always possible that some of the Labour MP’s may recall the original Mantra of the Scottish Labour Party "Home Rule" and feel it proper to cross the floor of the house. This would be the honorable thing to do, the question is: - Is there any honor left in the Scottish Labour Party?

On the other hand, whilst it might be difficult it is not impossible, given the general tenor of these posts, for the SNP to gain an overall majority. In this case the SNP must immediately seek the dissolution of the 1707 Act and or hold a clear referendum on the matter. If Westminster opposes or tries to cause inordinate delays then a UDI would be appropriate. That would bring an International scrutiny on the actions of Westminster.

We in Scotland must remember that every years delay means another chunk of the oil revenue will permanently disappear South. We need these revenues as the seed corn to grow our economy to where it should be.

159

Derick fae Yell,

By the Clock 11/03/2007 17:28:07

#116 "and the bit that Shetland keeps for itself"

mmm - weel at laeat wan Unionist Fear Monger (UFM) is managed ta lose da usual 'Shetlands' so I suppose dat is a peerie step ida direction o enlightenment!

But let wis see, theoretically spaekin,
- according tae UFM
1 Scotland votes for Independence, eventually.
2 Shetland decides ta stop bein pairt on Scotland an become pairt o England. A touch unlaekly, but we will humour da fuil fur da meenit.
3 Ferry starts runnin ta Newcastle insteed o Aiberdeen, my - dat wid joost be LOVELY. A 2 day trip.
4 Shetland's Scottish education, legal, health etc systems is dismantled and replaced by da English system. Shetlanders stops gyain ta Scots Universities an starts gyain ta Cambridge. OH RIGHT
5 Shetlanders stop spaekin Scots and start spaekin English. What ho! cheps! spiffing eh!
6 2040 Oil runs oot.
7 2041 England abandons Shetland as it no longer maks a profit. See Gibralter / Diego Garcia / etc.
8 2042 Shetland is evacuated.

what a lok a dirt!
Anidder day, anidder scare. Weil, actually, anidder decade, sam owld scare! Fae Yesterday's Men

tick
tick
tick

160

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 17:31:26

4 years is too late, 2 max.....and that may still be too late......but I'm sure it will take The Coming Recession, the ID Card, The Chip, The Bird Flu and Marshal law before most go...mmmmmm....wait a minute here.......Go back to your football and TV.....everythings fine :)

161

Brianwci,

www.edinburghtechniques.co.uk 11/03/2007 17:33:44

On a point of information, the SNP are able to claim 'It's Scottish Oil' for the following reasons. In 1964 the Continental Shelf Jurisdiction Act was signed in Geneva designating a mountain range under the sea running the whole length of the UK coastline all the way round the Northern Tip of Scotland.

This was accepted as the dividing line between UK and European waters. It was ratified in London in 1968 with an add on. Scottish lawyers had asked which legal system would be in force in the event of a dispute in the waters off Scotland.

A fair point as the waters off countries are seen as extensions of those countries which is why we can tax companies for exploration rights and drilling rights in those waters just as if they were a factory on land.

A line was drawn from the tip of the Scottish/ English border called parallel 55 degrees 50 north all the way to the aforementioned Continental Shelf.

Scottish law governs those waters and the royalties raised from exploration of those waters goes to the treasury of Scotland which at the moment is in London. In the event of independence the royalties from the North Sea will go to the Scottish Treasury in Edinburgh.

162

Citylocal Fife,

North of the bridge and right of(f) Jack McConnell 11/03/2007 17:36:09

This surely must be easy to sort out; I think Nicola Sturgeon as a qualified lawyer should be able to arrange who gets sued about what and for how much, as there seems to be someone out there not telling the truth - and strangely for once, it's not Kipper McConnell!

163

Biker,

Ayr 11/03/2007 17:47:43

No independance Eh? well imagine that. Could it be that Fish1 has seen the writingon the wall?

164

CJO,

The Maghreb 11/03/2007 17:53:52

#120 - am I talking crap because I state that Scotland will one day be independent or that the Labour party is the only one to really need the Union?
125 - Okay Scotland gets the North Sea oil off Shetland. On the Estern seaboard is heavily depleted. Take the Brents as an example of that plus re-injection on Magnus been underway for a number of years, there are numerous examples. Scotland still has a good to even chance of getting its independence from UK via England if nothing else.
England is well served through the banking community in the City that jas made it the pre-eminent banking centre of the World. Unfortunately for Edward, that is not crap. It is fact.
Further drawing the maritime boundaries is also well established in internaltional law and the line would head up North East due to the boundary at Berwick. That's not crap either and it would take a chunk out of what is the Central UKCS.
Apart from that, take from it what you will. Scotland needs to focus on building its economy around more the "Scotland's Oil". It would certainly help a nation that will be trying to establish itself in the early days but that is about it. It will require to do something to attract, build and maintain businesses from around the globe to be a thriving country. I never said that Scotland can't be independent, quite the reverse.

165

Ian on earth,

Glasgow 11/03/2007 18:08:01

161 - UDI wont be necessary. Once the tories are in power the English will demand a correction to the Scots devo settlement. The whole thing will fall apart at that point.

166

Derick fae Yell,

By the Clock 11/03/2007 18:15:29

# 176
"Scotland needs to focus on building its economy around more the "Scotland's Oil".

Absolutely spot on. Oil is a distraction.

Shetland is Scottish. End of Story.

167

Sambo,

The deep south 11/03/2007 18:17:16

I honestly believe after all the handwringing and when the stoor finally settles on May 3rd. That labour will still be firmly entrenched in Scotland and the majority of males will go back to their weekly enjoyment. Watching fitba.

168

St. Francis of Assissi,

Top of the league looking down at the HUN monkeys 11/03/2007 18:18:37

who cares?!!

169

Ian on earth,

Glasgow 11/03/2007 18:24:18

181 - Who cares? - A. The rest of my family left a while ago, I expect my own kids will do the same.

170

CJO,

The Maghreb 11/03/2007 18:29:41

Crippling the oil services #177? The oil service companies are making excellent profits at the moment. It is just that they are making a lot more of it abroad. As for rig building, there is a continued rig building programme worldwide with Singapore knocking out probably more than most.
As for "Westminster/England" stopping oil production, that isn't correct either. More money is made by investing in O&G fields that can be brought on at a low capital investment cost per barrel produced than a high one. This leads to investing billions in individual fields that have more reserves the all of "Scotland's Oil" together.

171

John2,

Kent 11/03/2007 18:42:39

Hi No 20 & 21. There you go again - why do you keep on thinking that people in England/London are trembling in their boots at the thought of Scotland becoming independent ? Most of us can't wait for it to happen - and the sooner the better.

The only people I know who want Scotland to stay as part of the UK are not English but Scottish MP's who spend most of their time voting on matters that do not affect their constituents, drawing fabulous expenses, but who continue to blame "the English" for all the problems north of the border.

With all the huffin "n" puffin about independence for Scotland could it be that as the time draws near to put up or shut up we are now seeing, and hearing, all manner of excuses as to why the independence question is being put on the back boiler.

Go for independence without delay - we English will just have to carry on without Scotland.

172

Jonboy,

11/03/2007 18:50:44

ThatScottishWitch

Can you email me at :
fairport200@hotmail.co.uk

173

siusaidh,

11/03/2007 19:02:43

Problem is, that those in power just now don't really believe in democracy...Rennie....
Aren't the liberals a clear sign ,that there isn't any democracy wanted, as they don't want a referendum at all costs...they just don't want to hear what the people of Scotland want.

174

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 19:06:59

John2, well Kent. I agree with you. Please throw us out of the equal union.

175

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 19:11:09

Or, John2, to put it another way, psychologists have shown that oppressed children will cling to the oppressive adult.

176

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 19:13:04

Comment@20/21 John, hi mate....im not anti English, just anti New World Order interbred families and secret societies with brainwashed Satan worshipping numptie agenda merchants :)

177

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

11/03/2007 19:17:03

Oh and as for the laws that govern us.....heres something you really should watch, makes you realise what they really see us as......please feel free to prove it wrong :) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=364893013144393...

178

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 19:18:44

Oh, and John2, in case you think that makes England big daddy, I reckon we are hen-pecked.

Hootsman is.

179

Miss H,

11/03/2007 19:19:41

Of course 'Scotland doesnt feel like a country about to declare UDI.D'oh.

You are well named.

It does feel however like a country which might just be on the verge of voting SNP.

If that's what happens then people will get the chance to vote on independence within the nest 4 years.

The unionists are obviously worried about that.

They should be,

180

Derick fae Yell,

Time to go and watch the TV 11/03/2007 19:25:41

Hello John2 of Kent.
couldn't agree more.
Roll on an Independent England, free of the garish tackyness of 'Britishness'

Did you catch the Rugby? - not perfect but definitely better, and less static than some previous English teams. I started off supporting the French, on the basis that they have a better national anthem. 'Alarme! Le citoyens!, but couldn't sustain it as they weren't good enough.

Some fine day an English team will walk out on to the pitch at Twickenham.
And the band will strike up the gorgeous tune of 'Jeruselem' rather than God Save the Queen (A bit of a dirge, let's face it).
And 80,000 English voices will rise, properly
And the ground will shake
And the oak trees of England will bow down in homage.
And the Scottish rugby team will be hammered again. Oh but it will be worth it to hear that song.

181

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 19:34:18

Derick fae Yell, God Save the Queen is actually different words to an old central European folk tune, brought to London by the Hannoverians.

It would be nice if the English could actually write their own songs and create their own dances all by themselves. (Morris dancing comes from Moorish dancing).

It would also be nice if they could run their own country by and for themselves without transgressing the territories of others.

We live in hope

182

morris,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 19:38:47

139
If you think a) the SNP has abandoned its commitment to independence and b) they listen to anything you say,you really have lost it!
I used to think you were a bit thick.Now I know you are at least three dimensional.

If this paper published the election results one week before the election you lot would say See I told you so!
Carry on.I for one will love to see your faces when the SNP wipe you at the election and thats just for starters.

183

Derick fae Yell,

Definitely Time to go and watch the TV 11/03/2007 19:50:51

The English can write their own songs

And did thos feet, in ancient times
Walk upon England's mountains green?

and Kate Rusby is a bit of a babe you must agree.

got to go

184

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 19:51:59

Has anyone checked out tha words to the Jock Tamson posting on the New Song article? It's about the Hootsman.

I reckon the problem with this paper is that they set out their stall all those years ago and can't find a decent unionist party to back in this election.

Hmmm?

185

barbour,

Perth 11/03/2007 19:52:17

#194 Ken M
Where do you obtain your historical "facts" from?
If the only contribution to what should be a serious debate are as posted 194,then can I suggest you wheest your gob and don't demean the Scots folk who have relavent points to raise.

186

siusaidh,

11/03/2007 19:57:03

All the unionst's seem to be having a whale of a time here on this post.......

187

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 20:03:45

198, barbour. Were you named after the jacket in which you were concieved?

Try reading up on something apart from postings you don't unerstand. Try going to Celle in Germany and see what you find there.

188

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 20:17:28

Barbour, the best part of you ran off your jacket's sleeve, down your mother's leg and became Prinzowhales - a Jonah if there ever was one.

189

,

11/03/2007 20:17:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
190

CJO,

The Maghreb 11/03/2007 20:30:18

#205 "we'll be fine" presumably you'll be fine by remaining in California? Nice one.

191

KD,

11/03/2007 20:35:30

I don't get it. Surely if Scotland gained independence, then the SNP's job is done and they have to disband before we have to have another election? Proving their ability to govern is surely a waste of time.

192

Displaced Scot,

11/03/2007 20:44:50

Why does the SNP on one hand go on about being a Sovereign state and has this great wish to sell itself to the EU. They quote nations such as Ireland Norway and New Zealand as countries with small populations that are independent. Yes Norway and New Zealand are independent but Ireland has sold itself body and soul to the EU. You just have to ask your own fishermen to tell you the damage that the EU has done to their industry.
Do you honesly think that the EU would give Scotland any more money than they are getting now. Not that any money that comes from the EU is a plus, because if the UK was not in the EU you would still be getting the same money. I think the SNP think that they can use the EU as a tool against England.
Yes I am a Scot living in England like many others, I have not sold my soul to the English. The biggest mistake that the English did to Scotland was to impose the Community charge on Scotland before it was enacted in England. Closing Ravescraig was a blatent example of English arrogance.
The SNP should consider the contribution that the Scottish people have made to the world by being within the United Kingdom. Canada and New Zealand have a great deal to thank the Scots for. Ireland has never taken that into consideration, and has lost a lot.
Lets be a United Kingdom free from the EU.

193

Ken S.,

England 11/03/2007 20:52:24

#205. CASEY PURVIS

"WHY ARE PEOPLE WHO LOVE ENGLAND IN SCOTLAND?"

.. and why are people who love Scotland in California, a land conquered from its original peoples?

194

barbour,

Perth 11/03/2007 20:55:18

#204 Ken M
MMMM,Yes you have just confirmed the level of your intellect.
At first I just thought you had an inferiority complex,but no,you are obviously just inferior.
Get a grown up to explain the syntax.

195

Cynical Peter,

Fife 11/03/2007 21:05:26

I am shocked at the naievity of some of these postings. This article has nothing whatsoever to do with the SNP.

Many of you have criticised the Scotsman for being anti-SNP. You all just miss the point so badly. This article, and the whole reason for it, is because the Scotsman is pro LibDem.

The SNP will need LibDem support to form an administration - and perhaps because the LibDems have some experience in government - screwing it up, principally.

I cannot see the Tories getting into bed with either the SNP or LibDems - so it is up to those two parties to cut the deal. And the deal is clearly, "shelve independence, implement the disastrous local income tax and equal dibs in the cabinet."

This deal demonstrates that Salmond is, like Nichol Stephen, focussed solely on power, not people.

Perhaps it is Labour and the Tories who should be calling for this referendum from day 1 of the next administration - because clearly neither SNP nor LibDems will push it - not that I'm advocating independence, but I think if that referendom were held immediately after May's elections, even were there an SNP victory, the people of Scotland would overwhelmingly give the concept of Independence two votes - middle and index finger.

This is the real reason why Alex wants to wait - otherwise it would be an early bath and a junior role in the new cabinet.

Call me cynical but Alex is actually more interested in power than Independence.

196

Faye,

Scotland 11/03/2007 21:19:59

#103 Scottwebb.

South Americans got the crop spraying bannas and children born without brains, eyes and deformed limbs.

Have a look at some of the pictures here http://www.studentsforbhopal.org/DirtyDow.htm#Vietnam and “white clouds”. The pics are not for the squeamish. Scroll to picture with little boy holding a spoon. Click on more photographs. Middle column, third from the bottom, lady holding little girl's head in her hands and how "white clouds" changed their lives.


Union Carbide, what an environmental disaster and human suffering that was and still is!
But look at whose side the politicians take!
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=9602

Also:
http://www.studentsforbhopal.org/DirtyDow.htm#DeadPeasant

And the corporate companies in school classrooms!
http://www.studentsforbhopal.org/DowAtMySchool.htm


#109 Morris. I don't think SNP are not for independence with this article and anyway one has got to check the source.

Even if the article is true, I'd much rather have a Politician who lays the situation “on the line” to the general public rather than spring a pre election lie on the public after being voted in to save Scotland.

People are fed up with lies and spin.

Lay it on the line, I say. The general public can make informed decisions for themselves.

If Alex Salmond wants to take a precautionary approach to deal with the mess that is Scotland before going for the Independence button then I say, good Alex Salmond, good SNP.


Government should be there for the people and do what is right for them, not what is right for the

197

John2,

Kent 11/03/2007 21:45:15

Ken 188 - I have never regarded the Scots as being "oppressed" and I suspect neither do you or the majority of Scots. Having spent 12 years in Scotland and seen more of it than I have of England I did come across some anti English feelings but on the whole I found most of the Scots I met were patriotic, as I am of my country, but "oppressed" - come on ! That's the language of the past.

198

Grassmarket resident,

11/03/2007 22:00:15

If Salmond had been a member of the Scottish Parliament he could have debated with McConnell every week. What's he doing in Westminster? Why did he give up the Scottish Parliament after only one term? Too much work being leader of the opposition I wonder?

199

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 22:02:15

Yeah, John2, here we go again. Your telling me what I think. Read your post again and remove the word "suspect".

200

albanoch,

kyoto Japan 11/03/2007 22:02:26

Maybe some of the above comments will help "The Scotsman" realize that their readership are "NO DAFT!"
You've got some smart folk out there and there's no way the hacks at this esteemed papaer can compare especially intellectually. My advice is that you should try firing some of the clowns you have working for you now and employing some of your readers...we'd get much better, funnier, intellectual,deeper and profound articles than the likes of this one.
As mark Twain said." there are lies, there are damned lies and then there's Eddie Barnes!"

201

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 11/03/2007 22:09:37

Oh, and barbour of st ville, syntax is that wot we pay to Broon

202

Alamo,

Glasgow 11/03/2007 22:18:41

Further to my post #99.

here we go again....
Those of you who have Sky...look up the planner for tomorrow Monday 12 March..go to channel 4, go to 8pm for a prog called " Dispatches". Press the info button and what do you see?
"Prince Charles, who will one day be crowned King of ENGLAND "etc etc. Now either this is yet another example of Scotland being ignored by mighty England, or perhaps Charles is only going to be crowned King of ENGLAND, and we in Scotland are going to get a different King. Which one could it possibly be I wonder?

203

alainfrance,

london 11/03/2007 22:36:52

116,

You are right. Some people on here have disputed your claims but everyone in Europe now knows that the city of london will soon become if it hasnt already the major economic powerhouse of Europe. Its something that no-one can dispute. Just look at the way its changing, its re-emergance andthe pace of it is quite frightening. Not even Cities like New York can now compete with London. The fact is England doesnt need Scotland and more to the point, london does not need England.

Its no coincidence that one of our potential future leaders along with the prime minister of Spain are now looking closelt at the Anglo-saxon model of economics.

If the Scots dont vote for independance, the English will. I talk to alot of English friends and they really do want you to vote for independance to be rid of the high tax, high spend labour government. The question on alot of peoples lips is what could be achieved if there was a low tax rate like that in ireland?

204

Doh,

11/03/2007 22:46:42

Just got back from watching Hot Fuzz - very funny British film set in a sleepy English village.

Couldnt relate to it all.

Not like the SNP leadership - sell out - that we all understand - look out for more donations from business leaders.

205

IWright,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 22:48:39

#221
Labour has an absolute majority of English seats.

206

John2,

Kent 11/03/2007 23:01:14

Ken M. (217) Wouldn't dream of removing the word "suspect" because then you could say I was telling you what to think. The word "suspect" decribes what I think about your use of the word "oppressed". Nice exchanging views with you. Now "awa ta ma beid" (hope I got that right !)

207

CJO,

The Maghreb 11/03/2007 23:06:44

221 Alain - The EU thought/hoped Frankfurt would dominate the European money scene after its love child, the Euro, was brought in. Well this hasn't and never will. This is especially given the behaviour of the Euro Zone countries and their reluctance to cap their over reliance on state run everything. (SNP take note). The exception of course is Germany. She needs higher interest rates, just about all the others need lower interest. Ireland is heading for a debt problem as the young have taken out ludicrous mortgages, usually floating rate, and the recent 3 rate rises will severely squeeze them. Their house prices have rocketed way beyond anything seen in the UK in percentage terms.

In response to your query as to what the City could do if unleashed on the World with a low tax regime God alone knows but it would scare the Hell out of the Euro and the dollar.

Where will that leave an independent socialist Scotland?

208

Cant use my name anymore either - Alexandrina,

Way across the Minch 11/03/2007 23:16:51

Come next week's vote in the Commons on Trident (sixty thousand BILLION pounds ++!!), and comments reported today from the esteemed Catholic Church Bishop (not to mention THE WAR), it's just a matter of time (May 2007) until the SNP have the power they crave. Our destiny is in their hands, this is an inevitability (being handed on a plate). We can start now preparing for independence, and dismantling the links with Westminster (and 700+ Lords). By the way, do we need a second chamber in Scotland?
Put your cross where it matters. Let's be in control of our own destiny!

209

The Gorm,

Cda 11/03/2007 23:31:13

Such a load of blather--and here I thought that Commonwealth politics were petty and the curse of the working class.Seems to me that it is the same in the old sod.What will independence really change?
There always must be politicians and politicians always start out well but are soon compromised by the politics of the back room.It's like the same song sung by a different singer-same words ,same tune.

210

morris,

Edinburgh 11/03/2007 23:35:44

Before there can be a change in SNP policy it will need to be proposed and approved through the appropriate policy making bodies,and I would think that a major change of emphasis,such as dropping or diluting the principle AIM of the party which is Self Government ,the restoration of sovereignty within the Commonwealth , would require approval of the entire membership.
The transformation will be a staggered process of course,but to suggest that there is any dilution of anything is simply not possible,never mind probable.
It certainly would not become their desire having arrived at long last as the party which leads in opinion polls!
Even if it were true do you honestly believe the SNP would be stupid enough to allow this to surface weeks before the election? You are mad if you believe this nonsense.

211

,

12/03/2007 01:32:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
212

The Wizard,

OZ 12/03/2007 01:52:08

Why would you want independence when you can join in and sing God Save the Queen which contains the following verse

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy Almighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition crush
and like a torrent rush
rebellious Scots to crush
God save the Queen

Oh dearie me. I didnae mean it.

213

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 03:00:39

227
What will independence change? Thats not the issue really.What is significant is that there can only be change if the Scots wish that change to be.Its plain and simple self determination,which every nation has in theory.
Whether she chooses to exercise that right is what varies, and why that happens can vary of course.
In Scotland's case many people believe that Scotland can defy the science of economics and have a higher standard of living by continuing to subsidise the rest of the UK whilst being lied to as in the the subsidy is to and not from us!This has been proven beyond any possible doubt,but many Scots still support the Union and the claims of Westminster parties despite it being impossible for them to be telling the truth plus (and this is the real corker) they admit that they conned us!
They then insist that we treat them with respect as they counter balance Adam Smith ,by declaring to the world that they cannot understand economics and in the case of New Labour probably cannot spell it either!
The real change would be therefore freedom to choose,and what choices we make remains to be seen!

214

Auckland Arab,

New Scotia, I mean Zealand 12/03/2007 10:03:08

If I have to wait another 4 years then I can wait. We have waited this long after all. If Alex becomes First Minister then Yahoo ! New labour will be totally discredited in another 2 years and The Tories (ie New New Labour) will win power in England at the next Westminster election. Cue SNP to win outright majority and move the country to full independence. Now that's worth waiting 4 years for !

215

James England,

12/03/2007 10:19:31

It's now or never.

216

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 13:30:13

Verified in person with SNP HQ.
A referendum on independence was,is and will remain SNP policy. This article is complete garbage.
Now who looks stupid?

217

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 13:35:52

230
Indeed ! We are aware of this songs origins,well some of us anyway. No offence taken whatsoever.It just saddens me to observe that even the Wizard of OZ knew this before half of my countrymen who still stand up and sing it!
Cast a few spells for me Wizard! Good luck mate!

218

Anderson (lowlander),

12/03/2007 16:06:38

Let me play the devil's advocate for one moment. Some people have a good point on why London doesn't want to let go of Scotland. Could it be that even the royals have a say in it? If they loose Scotland, they loose a home. They will no longer have a royal seat to sit on here. Although there sovernty is not much in our eyes, they still think so, an do you think is bares any weight to decision making in London? This maybe pety, but it is also what got us signing over independence in the first place. Why have royals? Nastalgia? Pomp and circumstance? Independence is what drives people to do better than what is currently in place. To make a better morrow. Independence is the rock, the foundation. The rest is up to us, how we shape it, how it's built. The SNP may have other alternatives,who really knows. Electing politicians is like talking to an army recruiter. He tells you what you like to hear. Except when you arrive at your holiday in Bagdad.

219

Jennifer H,

12/03/2007 18:18:51

Nothing to do with the cooshy pay then?

C'mon folks, don't be careerists, stick up for your voters... remember the folk who put you there to begin with!

220

livilion,

livingston 12/03/2007 22:48:35

233. James England

No, actually it's now or next time, but by that time Whitehall will have squandered even more oil money to no good effect for the people of Scotland.


 

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