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Hunter: Lets vote on independence

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Published Date: 30 March 2008
SCOTS should be allowed an immediate independence referendum, the nation's richest man declares in an exclusive article with Scotland on Sunday today.
Billionaire tycoon and philanthropist Sir Tom Hunter says a vote is needed to avoid constitutional dithering and let Scotland move on, either as an independent country or as part of the UK.

Hunter also issues a stinging attack on all the political
parties in Scotland – both Nationalist and Unionist – accusing them of "posturing, positioning and pontificating" in their attempts to reform the constitution.

Hunter's dramatic entry into the row over the constitution comes after Labour, the Liberals and Tories last week unveiled their plan to back an independent commission to look at boosting Holyrood's power while stopping short of independence.

First Minister Alex Salmond last week unveiled the next stage of his "National Conversation" on independence, before publishing a Referendum Bill at the Scottish Parliament, probably in 2010.

Hunter says the separate approaches have confused the public and the matter should be resolved immediately and simply.

He writes: "The problem is there isn't an informed debate and there is a hell of a lot of confusion… You and I would be entitled to be both confused, disillusioned and frankly fed up with the posturing, positioning and pontification that is informing, or ill-informing, this debate."

He adds: "It is my firm belief that the Scottish people deserve the right to vote unequivocally on one key issue. Other issues follow, but there is only one vote: do you want Scotland to be independent or not? Yes or no?

"We need a majority of Scots to say 'yes' or 'no' to independence, end of story… a referendum is compelling because we Scots want an answer to our future now so that we can invest in it, whatever we choose, for our collective future over the long term."

Declining to back either option, Hunter concludes: "This decision is beyond politics – it is our right as a nation to determine our destiny, not for politicians to determine it for us. Hence it is my firm belief that the answer to this issue is relatively simply: let the people of Scotland decide."

Hunter goes on to attack the suggestion by Salmond last week that a referendum might be held under the Single Transferable Vote system, under which voters mark down their preferences, rather than voting for or against. He describes such a system as "Simon Cowell's X Factor voting system".

"You simply cannot utilise an STV system to determine Scotland's fundamental future," says Hunter.

But he also has harsh words for Labour, Tory and Lib Dem leaders who have refused to countenance a referendum so far. "Democracy, and that's what that is, is not something any politician should be afraid of. Otherwise, they should not be in politics at all," he says.

Despite his criticism of the STV system, Hunter's comments were met with delight by the SNP.

First Minister Alex Salmond said: "I welcome Sir Tom's intervention. Opinion is coming down between those who believe in the right of the people to determine Scotland's future – a position carrying 80% support – and those who don't.

"The National Conversation is galvanising debate, with a positive and enthusiastic response across Scotland. The SNP's first choice is to have a for or against referendum on independence, and 2010 is the right sort of timescale."

Salmond said his Government had signalled it was willing to include the option of enhanced devolution on a ballot paper, if the London-based parties could agree on such a specific scheme.

He said: "Labour will struggle to explain their opposition to allowing the people to choose their own future, even one that includes their preferred option. In 1992, it was Gordon Brown himself who demanded that all organisations support a 'persistent, determined and concerted' campaign to force the then Tory government to accept a multi-option referendum on Scotland's future."

However, the Unionist parties said they would not be changing their mind on a referendum.

A spokesman for Wendy Alexander said: "Sir Tom is entitled to his opinion. It doesn't appear most people in Scotland want one, with recent polls showing less than a quarter support independence. A clear majority at Holyrood believe that after 10 years, it is only right to look again at the devolution settlemen."

He added: "If Alex Salmond had the nerve to call a straightforward referendum, undoubtedly he'd lose, but a few years down the line he'd be calling for another one."

A spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives said: "We know from Quebec that unfortunately a referendum wouldn't be the end of it. The Nationalists would want to have a neverendum. Furthermore, a referendum could only take place if there were a majority of MSPs who supported it at the Scottish Parliament. That majority doesn't exist."

A Lib Dem spokesman added: "If the SNP believed their own spin, they could call a referendum on independence immediately.

"It is the job of the supporters of independence to make the case for a referendum. Our task is to build a cross-party consensus to strengthen the Scottish Parliament."

Labour sources claimed last night that the question of whether to back a referendum in order to "spike the nationalists' guns" had been discussed at "the highest levels" of the party.

It is understood that one reason why the strategy has been ditched is because it would be impossible to back a referendum in Scotland while Downing Street was denying the rest of the UK a referendum on the European treaty.





The full article contains 926 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Richardinho,

30/03/2008 00:13:11
Those last two paragraphs are most offensive; '
Labour sources claimed last night that the question of whether to back a referendum in order to "spike the nationalists' guns" had been discussed at "the highest levels" of the party.

It is understood that one reason why the strategy has been ditched is because it would be impossible to back a referendum in Scotland while Downing Street was denying the rest of the UK a referendum on the European treaty.
'

typical Labour party arrogance; it's all 'us,us,us. People of Scotland-less important'.
2

Jimmy the Pie,

30/03/2008 00:14:18
Lets put it to the test. Bet the result is nothing like AM2's statistics.
10 out of 10 for Wendy though!!
3

gaffer,

Kamloops, B.C.Canada 30/03/2008 00:20:06
I agree with your comment AM2, I think if we are to think with our heads and not our hearts, we would realise that as an independant nation we couldnt survive, break it down to , would we have have our own Money system , Our own medical system, our own army , navy , etc, and there are many many more parts of being on your own that I cant imagine, but why dont they whao are asking for this , at least show us just what we would have to look after and the cost of this if they want to become a republic Like the republic of Ireland, have all our money system changes to Eoros , even if we could join and we would have to go on a waiting list we couldnt just join automatically. so instead of just saying do you want to have an independant Scotland , Yes /No show us what it will cost in gaining the right to pay our bills.
4

Jimmy the Pie,

30/03/2008 00:24:40
#4
We already have our own medical system, armed forces, national and local government. They wouldn't disappear if we voted to become independent.

10 out of 10 for effort though. ;-)
5

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30/03/2008 00:26:07
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30/03/2008 00:28:05
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Richardinho,

30/03/2008 00:30:22
#6 Actually AM2, what I was referring to was the utter unashamed cynical self interest of the Labour party- both in wanting a referendum 'to spike the nationalists guns' (not because it would be good for Scotland) and then rejecting it because it would interfere with their equally cynical policy in denying the UK as a whole a referendum on the EU constitution (even though they promised this in their manifesto!)
8

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30/03/2008 00:35:43
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9

madrab,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 00:42:52
If Gordon Brown, Wendy Alexander and the rest of the unionists are so sure that the majority of scots don't want independence, why don't they propose a referendum on this issue?

Could it be that they are telling us more lies?

If they are correct a simple yes/no vote on independence would find in their favour.

Why wouldn't they want such a referendum to take place?

10

Sanny,

Portugal 30/03/2008 00:58:46
Sir Tom is right when he says that Scotland needs and has the right to a straightforward referendum on independence. However he is wrong in his criticism of AS. As a politician, AS has to deal in the art of the possible. His current actions are pushing unwilling Unionists into a position where if they don’t support a Referendum they will set the stage for AS and his party to gain an overall majority in the next Holyrood elections, then the SNP can set a referendum on their own terms. Sir T needs to remember that this time last year not only was the unionists opposed to the Referendum but there was no talk of any “additional powers”. In agreeing to even talk about additional powers the Unionists are effectively admitting that the electorate are waking up to the need for Scotland to take charge of its own affairs.

Sir T also fails to take account of the electorates general lack of understanding of what is at stake. Independence has not been properly debated in the Unionist controlled Media and I would go further to say that debate has been deliberately stifled. The release of the McCrone Report and the exposure of the GERS as a deliberate piece of miss-information, designed to frighten the Scots into believing they were dependent on Westminster for handouts, has led to many question beliefs that, in the absence of free debate, were held as self evident.

The necessary debate is now taking place on forums similar to this, as the Internet makes an enormous contribution to democracy. This process has only just begun and the Holyrood election last May was probably the first election where communication via the internet played a crucial role. The internet will continue to play an increasingly important role in exploring the potential of an Independent Scotland. I notes that WA has acknowledged as much at the SLP conference and has proposed to recruit Trolls to suppress or destroy the debate. I think she will fail!

After three hundred years of effective suppression
11

brian mcc,

the arctic 30/03/2008 02:11:22
The richest man in Scotland...wants to become a politician. With all that money, what's next is the desire for power...might he have more invested in London than Edinburgh? Or Quebec.
12

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 30/03/2008 02:17:06
1 AM2

Your stats are misleading in that there is no appetite for the status quo. The type of governance wanted by the majority of those polled is much closer to independence than you might be comfortable with.

6 AM2

Now your comments are misleading.

The 'national conversation' no matter YOUR OPINION, was set up so that all Scots could converse about independence as well as other constitutional options. Looking at the detail of the polls you quote, there is definitely an appetite for change of some sort.

It was months later that the Unionist parties got together to propose a Commission for change. But they took it upon themselves to exclude the 33% of people who voted for the SNP last May and look at their own version of change.

No wonder Tom Hunter says the whole damn thing is confusing. CLEARLY IT IS.


13

subrosa,

30/03/2008 02:22:36
Have a wee look at this:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3635734.ece

Explains a bit about Gordon Brown and his attitude towards a referendum on the EU. Too selfish for words.
14

Sanny,

Portugal 30/03/2008 02:23:59
1 AM2
Having from time to time read the rubbish you spout in these columns was wondering if Wendy had invited you to head up her army of trolls that she mentioned at the Aviemore conference.


4 gaffer
Quote/ “I think if we are to think with our heads and not our hearts, we would realise that as an independant nation we couldnt survive, break it down to , would we have have our own Money system , Our own medical system, our own army , navy , etc, and there are many many more parts of being on your own that I cant imagine, but why dont they whao are asking for this , at least show us just what we would have to look after and the cost of this if they want to become a republic Like the republic of Ireland, have all our money system changes to Eoros , even if we could join and we would have to go on a waiting list we couldnt just join automatically. so instead of just saying do you want to have an independant Scotland , Yes /No show us what it will cost in gaining the right to pay our bills.! \Unquote

Are you serious? Scotland is in the top quartile of the wealthiest nations in Europe!
Iceland is a minuscule nation with a population no greater than Glasgow. Its primary resource is fish – Cod to be precise – ye it take its place among the nations of Europe as an equal. For its size it has a powerful banking and financial sector. Had Westminster not given away our fishing grounds to Europe we would share Iceland’s good fortune. In addition we have enormous additional resources Oil (for the next 50 years), renewable electricity generation capacity far beyond our needs, an ample supply of water with plenty to spare (at a price). In addition we have sufficient land to supply all our food needs. All the services you mention we pay for already and more than our fair share. Your comments on monetary systems show a total ignorance of how monetary systems work. No matter which currency a country uses it has to be backed with resources. Gaffer, go on to the Herald Forum a
15

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 30/03/2008 02:31:16
4 gaffer, British Columbia

So we couldn't survive on our own?

What's your argument for this:

"would we have have our own Money system , Our own medical system, our own army , navy , etc, and there are many many more parts of being on your own that I cant imagine"

Is that it? I think you'll need to do a bit better than that.
16

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30/03/2008 02:32:35
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17

Sanny,

Portugal 30/03/2008 02:36:28
6 AM2
Once again you try to muddy the waters by confusing Elections with Referendum’s.
The former is about selecting the political party that will manage the affairs of the Nation for a limited period. The latter is about determining the constitutional position and direction of the Nation into the foreseeable future without limit.

For instance I am not an SNP supporter per se but I will support a referendum for Scottish Independence. Once Independence is achieved I will look to a party that will meet my other (at present secondary) political objectives.

Stop trying to miss-lead readers and instead try to ensure that all of the electorate are fully aware of both sides of the argument and can make a reasoned decision.
18

Rozz Fyffe,

scotland 30/03/2008 02:38:22
Sanny from your portugese villa, if scotland gets idependence there will be no oil money or very little.

END OF STORY
19

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30/03/2008 02:59:32
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30/03/2008 03:01:45
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30/03/2008 03:03:11
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30/03/2008 03:05:16
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30/03/2008 03:06:27
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Willie Macleod,

Wick 30/03/2008 03:16:57
#26 Good morning Taggart interesting posts have you got the membership of the other parties in Scotland over the same period It would be interesting to see.
25

An Beal Bacht,

30/03/2008 04:15:57
Well done Taggart - sliced and diced 'em and fed 'em up raw!
26

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 04:27:27
I would like to comment on the digs towards Tom Hunter by a few on this forum.

Tom Hunter isnt the enemy, as a matter of fact he is an example of what is good about Scotland. As a firm supporter of Full Independance of my Country from the remains of the United Kingdom. I want Tom Hunter and his kind to invest in London Markets and make profits he can then bring back to Scotland. The more he makes the better in my eyes. I want to see more Tom Hunters investing in their own kind, through charities and investment in our nations future generations. Yes he gave 100,000 quid to New Labour, but judging by his reaction to Wendy's corruption, when he stated he would give them nothing else, he was obviously under the impression that they were genuinely interested in the welfare of the Scottish People.

We all now know that Labour politicians are thieves and liars, who's main job is to keep the Scottish People in line for Westminster. Aviemore is at present full of English Puppets, doing exactly what they are told. Look at Andy Kerr with his pathetic attempt to liken Alex Salmond with Thatchers policies, when his party and boss had her across for tea, without arsnic in it, because that is what she would have got from me or any other Scot I know.

Tom Hunter is by his very attitude to life an Independant, Leader of People, who decides what is best for him and those closest to him. Shouldnt that philosophy now carry over to his nation. Scotland has been left by Westminster with so problems, especially in the area of the Peoples Self Esteem. Theres only one side of politics that deserves the blame for that, and that would be the Unionist Politicians who sold out the Scottish Race for a handfull of silver.
27

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast ( Vancouver.) 30/03/2008 04:36:19
Gaffer..Nothing personal. However your attitude is that of a wimp.

Scotland the Brave is it not?

28

Willie Macleod,

Wick 30/03/2008 04:45:00
#32 Dont worry about Gaffer he is an idiot or he really believes what he says either way its the same thing Serious points and debate please.
29

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 30/03/2008 07:03:24
#31 Is that a joke post or are you just another fruitcake who can't even spell independence.
30

Willie Macleod,

Wick 30/03/2008 07:14:44
#34 Morning Mercutio He is not joking I think,you never never know anyway hope this Sunday morning finds you well
31

donald,

glasgow 30/03/2008 07:25:41
Labour can vote for British Rule in their Old Firm and Ingurland shell suits and Basie bunnets.
32

Nikostratos,

30/03/2008 07:30:20
Well Alex best change his mind again(flip flop flip flop) as he has accepted the multi-option ballot if offered by the pro-union msps.

I do find the claim over neverendum dubious as Alex has stated this is a once in generation event....And won't be revisited for another 25 years......And so far no 'Nationalists' have contradicted him ?
33

Nikostratos,

30/03/2008 07:34:18
#2

Those last two paragraphs are most offensive; '
Labour sources claimed last night that the question of whether to back a referendum in order to "spike the nationalists' guns" had been discussed at "the highest levels" of the party.

"the highest levels" of the party.
silly billy don't you know that's journalese for speaking to a labour party member who is up a ladder.
34

kimba,

30/03/2008 07:43:43
After watching Rangers beat Celtic yesterday,with the amount of union flags that were being waved around,there can be no doubt about the result of any referendum,bring it on salmond,your pishing in the wind!
35

kimba,

30/03/2008 07:48:16
26. still a lot higher than the snp can muster,a mere 11,644 at the last count!
36

Geoff H,

30/03/2008 07:50:39
31 - "There's only one side of politics that deserves the blame..the Unionist politicians who sold out for a handful of silver'

Let's be careful of the old accusation that Scotland was only 'bought & sold for English Gold'

In 1703 the English Gov't made it very clear that they were determined to achieve control of Scotland and would, if necessary, invade. On 17 July 1703, Godolphin, the leading member of the English Gov't sent the following letter to Seafield, the Scottish Chancellor:

'England is now at war with France, if Scotland were in peace, and consequently at liberty to trade with France, would not that immediately necessitate a war betwixt England and Scotland also, as has been often the case before the two nations were under the same sovereign? And though perhaps some turbulent spirits in Scotrland may be desiring to have it so again, if they please to consult history they will not find the advantages of these breaches has often been on the side of Scotland; and if they will give themselves leave to consider how much England has increased in wealth and power since those times, perhaps the present conjuncture will not appear more favourable to them, but on the contrary rather furnish arguments for enforcing the necessity of a speedy union between the two nations; which is a notion that I am sorry to find has little prevalency in the present parliament of Scotland. And I hope your lordship will not be offended with me if I take the freedom to be of the opinion they may possibly be sorry for it too, when the opportunity is out of their reach'

So not only was there bribery, guarantees to preserve the Scottish legal system & existing rights of lords, lairds and burghs, safeguards to the existing constitution of the Church of Scotland but threats of all out war if Scotland were to resist.

Daniel Defoe, the English agent & propagandist said the only alternative to union 'was the bloodiest war in history between the two countries'.

So although it
37

Geoff H,

30/03/2008 07:56:16
41 cont'd

So although it is unusual for any parliament to vote for its own abolition it is even more astonishing in Scotland where it had defended its independence against heavy odds for over 300 years; but is it any wonder?

Funny how we had Unionists 300 years ago talking over wealth and power...some things never change...
38

Dick Lynas,

Glasgow 30/03/2008 08:03:04
I assume that No 39 kimba is being tongue-in-cheek.
The number of union flags at Ibrox had nothing to do with the union or nationhood.
It is called sectarianism - once amusingly referred to as Scotland's secret shame
39

eric,

Lothian 30/03/2008 08:13:26
Most folk in UK want us out (England & Wales),SNP in a win win situation,The damage has been done Theres no way back because its irrelivent what we want in Scotland anymore The English will decide that.
40

Yane,

30/03/2008 08:19:51
Geez, yer all being very sensible & nobody's commented on that photie.
Is he sposed tae look like he's gonna bite the head off whippets?
41

John S,

30/03/2008 08:37:51
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long they didn't kick us out years ago ?
Why does England desperately cling on to having Scotland in the UK ?
Why would anyone in England want Scotland to remain in the UK ?
Why now when independence is back on the agenda is England not clamouring for the same?



42

kimba,

30/03/2008 08:39:32
43.you can call it what you want,the point is these people weren't flying the union flag for salmonds sake,oh and chris hoy in the cycling running round the track with a huge union flag draped over his shoulders;I really do hope you get your independence vote,that seems to be the only way to prove to the nats that the majority of scots still want to be part of the union.
43

9/11 was an inside job,

Corrupt EU 30/03/2008 08:40:02
Stupid man. Let's have a vote to get Scotland out of the EU. Stop blaming England for all our shortcomings.
44

kimba,

30/03/2008 08:42:42
46,because unlike you,most people in scotland and england understand the phrase "united we stand,divided we fall"!
45

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 30/03/2008 09:14:01
"My name is Wendy Alexander & I'm a hungry caterpillar".

My God.

How could ANYONE vote for the Labour party?
46

Scudder,

Glasgow 30/03/2008 09:15:38
10/10 for Sir Tom !,.,. Wouldn't Politics be so much more acceptable if Politicians were clear thinking, intelligent and most of all ,, bloody honest ?
But ne'er fear ,,with or without them we WILL have our Independence & our FREEDOM ! Hail Caledonia
47

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 09:17:08
Why does this newspaper organisation give a platform to the wealthy and priveliged for them to air their personal views on Scotland's constitutional position within the UK?

Any good publicity that came out of the Labour Conference at Aviemore will not be forgotten as Mr. Hunter's views grab the headlines?

SoS cannot make up its schizophrenic mind whether it is for or agin Independence?

The only winners are the SNP!
48

kimba,

30/03/2008 09:23:44
51.sorry chum,not in the forseeable future you won't!
49

The west awake,

Argyll 30/03/2008 09:34:34
Nikostratos - "I do find the claim over neverendum dubious as Alex has stated this is a once in generation event....And won't be revisited for another 25 years......And so far no 'Nationalists' have contradicted him ?"

I don't know if I count as I am only a Nat supporter, not a member , but I for one would contradict him - if I thought he was issuing instructions, (which I don't).

My reasoning is simple - one man, even the great Salmond, cannot determine what will happen over the next 25 years - for one thing he will be about 80 by then!
There will be more referenda - if there is enough demand for one, simple as that, it is called democracy. If the country clearly doesn't want one (unlike at the moment), no-one would be able to force us to have one, and vice-versa. Whether that happens in 25 years, 25 months or 25 minutes is irrelevant and unknowable.
It is absurd to say that I can vote on Independence, but my son would have to wait until 2033 to do so! How can anyone deny rights to a whole generation? - it simply isn't in anyone's power to do so - thank God.

Salmond was predicting when he made that remark, not mandating.

50

oder,

Scotland 30/03/2008 09:44:42
46 John S,30/03/2008 08:37:51


the history of nations being allowed independence by the Westminster government depends entirely on how much it costs,safe to say at present Scotland costs England nothing! whether its water, oil, or a place to park Trident, the Falklands war was sparked by the Westminster's lack of interest in the islands, now they have oil and the Westminster Government pays to keep a credible force there to protect the rights of the islanders, good job they got oil eh! classic example of how the British Government works!
51

kimba,

30/03/2008 09:48:03
54. Think you'll find that it is not the unionist who are "bricking it",salmond seems to be changing the goal posts on a weekly basis!
52

kimba,

30/03/2008 09:51:52
56,LOL,you really are a comedian,"costs England nothing"how about the extra 1500 pound for every man woman and child in scotland per year!
53

Gill,

W/L 30/03/2008 09:55:34
Kimba 39-58...

Your ignorance really knows no bounds, does it? THANKFULLY, come the referendum you won't be getting a vote. And (not for the first time)....it's 'YOU'RE pishing in the wind!' Away and educate yourself and leave the politics to the grown ups.
54

brownlie,

glasgow 30/03/2008 09:59:48
38 Kimba

That is the most moronic posting I have seen on this site. Talk about unionist desperation. Do you not realise that even if a few thousand, out of a total of around 50 thousand, were waving the union jack that that would ammount to only 4% of the spectators - which puts your absurb claim into perspective.
55

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30/03/2008 10:01:32
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56

oder,

Scotland 30/03/2008 10:04:59
58 kimba,

propaganda bud! keep on telling lies long enough people like you start to believe it! makes the English feel good about themselves, these ungrateful Scottish subsidy junkies that cant get by with out the English giving them a handout and on the other they have the temerity
to believe they might be able to do it themselves, your the comedian!
57

kimba,

30/03/2008 10:11:13
59/60. And there speaks two very uninformed,bilious,and stupid nats. For your information-# England £7,121
# Scotland £8,623
# Wales £8,139 per person. The population of England is 80% of the population of the UK. Instant abolition of the Barnett Formula, based on the above figures would result on an average UK expenditure of approximately £7362. This would be a large decrease for each person in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but an increase of less than 4% per person for England
58

kimba,

30/03/2008 10:18:42
Oh,and Brownlie,didnae post at 38!
59

Forward not Back,

Nowhere near You 30/03/2008 10:21:14
I said at the time of the election results that the Tories should have called the SNP's bluff and supported the independence referendum but with the question being "Do you want Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom?" because the Unionist parties had the majority of the Parliament. If Michael Forsyth had still led the Tories in Scotland, the referendum could be done and dusted and the SNP would have had to get on with the business of government (which they haven't done too badly with so far).
60

Transparent?,

Scotland 30/03/2008 10:25:47
What we need first is a voting system that the voters can trust.

The complex preference system, which Salmond is proposing, requires 'extracting' all three preferences before processing into results and therefore provides an opportunity for the SNP to cheat their way to independence. It's a desperate act of a dictator.

Also ask Tom Hunter if he got his wealth under the United Kingdom or an Independent Scotland.
61

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 30/03/2008 10:33:42
Transparent? - yip I think we can see through your nonsense
62

oder,

Dundee 30/03/2008 10:41:41
kimba,30/03/2008 10:11:13
firstly I am not a not nationalist! secondly I am not a unionist!
you should thank the Nats for trying to save the English taxpayer money! or are you one of the susidy junkies that needs the handout!
63

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30/03/2008 10:43:16
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64

kimba,

30/03/2008 10:47:41
69.So I can take it you are a "sit on the fence" kind of person,funny how your rhetoric is almost identical to the nats.
65

Mikey,

30/03/2008 10:58:47
kimba, when you're proved wrong, as you will be, what are you going to do?
66

happyhibbie,

The Inch, Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:00:57
A Westminster government with guts would get rid of this sham of a parliament whose best-known apology for politicians are Slippery Salmond and Weirdo Wendy who will, sooner or later, be forced to resign.

Any referendum should be UK wide as all British citizens will be affected by the outcome.
67

M.T.,

30/03/2008 11:01:06
"SCOTS should be allowed an immediate independence referendum, the nation's richest man declares in an exclusive article with Scotland on Sunday today."

No! Not immediate!

Scottish people deserve discussion and truth in order that they can assess for themselves the correct way forward.
68

Enigma,

30/03/2008 11:04:24
46

`Why does England desperately cling on to having Scotland in the UK?`

We don`t mate, the attitude of most is to shrug their shoulders and say,if you want out then go for it and good luck to you. At times it`s almost as if you want us to kick up a fuss and put obstacls in your way. Just stop blaming the English for everything, else who will you have to blame after English independence?
69

kimba,

30/03/2008 11:05:03
72,Mikey. I should think the question should be,what are the nats going to do? Guess your whole lives will be in turmoil.
70

Garry Otton,

Scottish Media Monitor 30/03/2008 11:05:22
Reasons NOT to vote SNP? Read the latest article on Media Monitor website on history of Section 28. Fine. Vote SNP if you want a theocracy. The SNP want to fund MORE 'faith' schools for Muslims and sectarian schools for Catholics.
71

morris,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:07:26
Of course Scotland should be allowed a referendum on independence,if for no other reason so that those who claim to know what support level exists(for their own purposes) can finally say it with confidence(or shut up )as is appropriate.
Any other point of view is undemocratic and only serves to prove just how unfit these people are and we should ignore them.
The findings will of course determine when a subsequent referendum should be held,since clear;y whilst there can NEVER be a so called SETTLED WILL OF THE PEOPLE in a democracy,only a WILL OF THE PEOPLE which constantly requires monitoring and adjustment.Otherwise you return to the current ignorance of claiming to know what level of support exists when its obvious that you seek to impose your view irrespective of whether a majority or minority opinion.
That is never acceptable in any democracy.
We are governed by Westminster on the presumption that the majority favour this.
It could be correct,and it could be wrong.
It could be a today and b tomorrow .

Lets find out the facts,then we can stand up and say the level is ...........................and NOT BEFORE!
Anyone who says they already know is a combination of liar and idiot and possibly both.It has NEVER been measured as i direct question,not even in the two referenda which were held and excluded independence as an option.
WE ARE NOT STUPID SO STOP THIS ARROGANCE OF TREATING US LIKE WE ARE.
72

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:09:31
78 happy english,Canterbury

When you live in England you see an English perspective on the world which is no more valued than any other.What you display is an arrogance beyond belief that you could know more about a country than the people who live there!
73

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

30/03/2008 11:16:32
64 kimba,30/03/2008 10:18:42

Naw it wis #39 an yer still pishing in the wind

63 kimba,30/03/2008 10:11:13

If the 'Barnett formula' is replaced, and this is looking increasing unlikely, as it favours London, more than any other part of the UK, it will have to be replaced by a system that takes account of 'input' to the treasury, as Scotland's 'input' to the treasury, exceeds it's funding level, including it's 'fair share' for Central government attributable expenditure, then even more of Scotland's money would come home.

Anywho, why has the SOS not covered the story that Gordo is going to 'stealhtax' another £40m a year from Scotland's 'renewable energy' sources not been covered by this fair, honest and principled periodical?
74

morris,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:17:29
75

We do not blame the English people for anything.
We blame ourselves since we have never been denied the vote. The Labour Party create this impression for their own purposes of racist accusation against us.People in Scotland have sufficient brains to work out that the SNP would press the self destruct button should they ever embrace racism.WE DO NOT

To my certain knowledge the SNP contains many English members and ethnic minorities and increasingly so at Labours expense. That is the reality and they support Scottish independence,and are notably the intelligentsia.That speaks volumes !
75

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:28:17
"It is understood that one reason why the strategy has been ditched is because it would be impossible to back a referendum in Scotland while Downing Street was denying the rest of the UK a referendum on the European treaty."

Why? It's a totally seperate question. The Brits don't want a referendum because they know when it comes down to the positive case for normal powers for Scotland versus the usual scaremongering against it, they'll lose.
76

haggis 10,

The Capital city of Scotland 30/03/2008 11:30:07
America Canada Nigeria Ghana South Africa Tonga Pitcairn Island Newfoundland Ceylon Burma "Berwick" Libya Egypt Hawaii Guyana South West Africa Sudan India Ireland The West indies Falkland Islands New Zealand Noforlk Island Cyprus Malaya Singapore Botswana are all Screamin at the hallowed Gates of the "British (MOTHER" of PARLIAMENTS) ENGLISH THAT IS" To Reinstate Their Dependency Status to ensure their countries natural resources are finally wiped out !
77

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/03/2008 11:30:19
#87 happy english

A lot of people here have a deep-seated psycological need to feel part of an 'oppressed minority', and you have been chosen to represent the 'oppressors'.
78

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 11:31:41
There was an interview with Alex Salmond by Andrew Marr in his breakfast show this morning. After putting a weak defence of STV, he was unable to answer Marr's direct question- how he would get the referendum agreed by Holyrood holding a minority status. He had no answer to that but kept on saying that people will get convinced so on.. But the fact of the matter is the Holyrood arithmetic is against him and that will not change until the next election whatever the unpopularity of other parties outside the Holyrood now.
The chances of agreeing for referendum by Holyrood is now as much as Ian Paisley becoming the prime minister of Republic of ireland.
How Sir Hunter is going to solve this?

There is a strong theory (put forward by Scots in business) which explains why there is no clamour for independence which polls only 25%. Scotland has comparatively large public sector and needs a large tax base to service it if Scotland becomes independent. Scots in Scotland are left-leaning and are not comfortable in losing England as a funding source. If Scotalnd separates, the oil revenue from then on will be be divided between the two countries ( international law and there are precedences).

Finally, Today Alex salmond said he needs immigrants from where? The East Europeans tend to settle in London and England , and he can get them only from Asia, which means more mosques, faith schools, Sharia law etc.. etc..

I bet Sir hunter did not think all of these!
79

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:34:30
KImba and certain others.

The Barnett formula is used to work out the allocation of funds to regions of the UK.
An indepedent Scotland would not be in the UK so the Barnett formula has SFA to do with anything .
What we should compare is how much Scotland would have after independence with what she is allocated now,not compare us to other regions of what will be a seperate country from Scotland.
Scotland would retain all taxes currently given to London plus North Sea Oil Revenues (and there are international rules which govern this).Negotiation will take place certianly but Scotlands Holyrood parliament and Westminster become equal in the international communities eyes.
When you make this comparison it favours Scotland by a country mile.The value of the oil revenues is much more significant in Scotlands much smaller economy.
The mutiplier I am advised by other contributors is of the order of 12:1
That secures Scotlands position and we would have to be incompetent beyond belief to screw that up.
We are confident that we understand economics well enough to do what we have done all over the planet,and it was Adam Smith who fathered the economic discipline and taught the world how to govern under a capitalist system in his "Wealth of Nations".

The arguments that we are too small or too anything are born of ignorance and employed by people who do not know what they are talking about.Economics applies to all nations big small black white east west and any other you mention.The difference is their wealth and how well their governments understand and perform with what resources they have.We are almost a copy of Norway as much as anyone can be,and if we copy that model we should not go far wrong.They are laughing all the way to the bank.Norwegian independence has probably benefited Sweden also!
80

haggis 10,

30/03/2008 11:41:15
Sorry if I missed out any DEPENDENCIES Ps Free Gold nibbed pens and finest Vellum are available from the Socialist Security Dept at no cost !!!!For the above Ceromonial Handover .
81

,

30/03/2008 11:42:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
82

John S,

30/03/2008 11:42:52
#61 What you wrote isn't a reason why ? it is upto the Westminster (English) majority Government to make that decision and so far they have put obstacles in the way ie the 1979 referendum which was stupid with its 40% undemocratic rule, then they hid the McCrone report and why just devolution in 1997 ?
If it is upto the Scottish people then why is the Westminster Government interfering with democracy within Scotland when on the April 3, 2007 in Glasgow Mr Blair and Mr Brown warned that the SNP's promises, even without independence, will cost Scottish families £5,000 a year.
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long they didn't kick us out years ago ?
Why now when independence is back on the agenda is England not clamouring for the same?
I was proud to serve in the British Army but I also believe in a independent Scotland.
83

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:48:27
91

YOu are correct Scotland has a minority government and cannot probably secure an agreement to hold a referendum. What we can secure is the publicity of the other parties DENYING US THE RIGHT TO HOLD ONE.

Perception is a mightier weapon than truth in the short term anyway.
That is worth far more to the SNP who will continue to rise in popularity as direct result. Tam Dalyell was correct when he said that a sliippery slope exists.It slippery because Westminster will try every dirty trick in the book to halt the SNP progress,(which is the sensible way to go),since every day is another million or so in Westminsters bank account.Hopefully they will get all of it before Scotlands idiots waken up is Westminsters persective on this.
Both Brian Wilson (former Labour MP) and John Biffen (formely very senior Tory) are on record as acknowledging publicly that Scotland would fare better as an indpependent nation.
Biffen was even honest enough to admit that had he been a Scot he would not have been in the Tory party at all ! Whether he would have joined the SNP or not is hypothetical of course,but there is no doubt thats what he meant.

The Unionists will oppose any referendum because they dare not risk it!
The truth is heavily in favour of independence and we know it!
84

Craig Watson,

Normally Falkirk, currently Brazil 30/03/2008 11:49:51
Sense at last from someone. Yes, lets do it now and get it over with, this continual bickering and posturing does nothing for Scotland's image nor it's people. IF we are going to go it alone (and even as a proud Scot I hope not)lets do it. Too much talk not enough action.
As for using the STV method STOP, it's a losers way of winning. A simple "Independence YES/NO" is all that is required.
If the answer is YES, where is the money going to come from to sustain Scotland, not the oil as it is a shared commodity. And if the answer is NO well the SNP should accept the peoples wish and move on.
85

,

30/03/2008 11:51:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
86

Brian M,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:52:50
#96

Reads like something Gordon (I hope the English don't notice I am Scottish) Brown-nose would come out with
87

Jings Crivens,

paisley 30/03/2008 11:53:28
Just because he is the richest man in Scotland does not make his opionion any more valid than mine or anyone else in the UK.

Therefore to ensure a balanced coverage can everyone else in the UK have their opionion published in the media
88

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 11:56:55
I am puzzled why the Scots in their postings cannot come forward and say 'our country's independence is in our hands and more of us should have voted SNP last time to give Salmond the majority in Holyrood', and indulge in arguments about English obstruction. As far as I know the majority( leave the Scots Brown, Darling, Alexander and DesBrone out, you voted them
as MPs and not us!)in England will accept if the Scots vote for a party which puts the referendum to people and wins.

Friends, the independence was within your reach during last election and you blew it!! It is not going to happen at least in the next three years and looking at the polls for it stagnating at 25% might never happen!!
89

Brian M,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:58:24
#95

I wouldn't trust any figures Labour. They got the Scottish Parliament building costs wrong for example, and wee bendy has had ever so much problems with the likes of understanding 1000, 950 and now 10 out of 10
90

Brian M,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:59:04
#95

I wouldn't trust any figures from Labour.

They got the Scottish Parliament building costs wrong for example, and wee bendy has had ever so much problems with the likes of understanding 1000, 950 and now 10 out of 10
91

Fish Monger,

30/03/2008 12:08:05
I wonder why the unionist fraternity are so concerned at the prospect of a referendum? Many of them seem keen to avoid it on the basis that the outcome is obvious and that there is no call for it. I suspect that these are the same voices that, a few months before the Scottish electionsm, thought it inconceivable that the SNP might win.

Democracy, eh? What a bummer when it doesn't go your way! Still, for a party that is used to coronating its leaders, rather than electing them democratically (when was the last Labour leader elected in a contest?) and for a party that is beholden to the block votes of Trades Union donors, their resistence to a referendum is, I suppose, understandable.

Democracy and Labour just aren't natural bed-fellows.
92

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 12:11:04
#97
The names you quote are all men of yore and were rebels.
They can be referenced for arguments, but my point is when the chips were down last time, why did you not put SNP with a Holyrood majority? Many of us believe that you lost one in a life-time opportunity. As I explained, much water will flow under the bridge during next 3 years, and the world economic situation is hostile and it is likely Salmond government will not deliver as its economics is heavily centred on public sector, which means taxes and more taxes. He would surely blame Brown and England, but in the privacy of the voting booth would Scots give him the majority next time? Knowing my friends North of the Border, many of them are not unionists, I doubt it.
93

Geoff,

sa 30/03/2008 12:14:06
Morning all. Don't you or some of you get tired of this same old same old going over and over repeat ground,merits aside? I am reminded of that lovely Monty Python sketch in which a bored monotonous voice sings.."I like traffic lights,I like traffic lights,I like traffic lights,I..oh God I'm so sick of this!!

There is a simple solution.
94

Fish Monger,

30/03/2008 12:18:40
A typical example of New-Labour's stalinist tendancies is their internet troll's love of having other people's posts deleted if they disagree with them. AM amused at how obvious the Labour trolls are though!
95

Secretary, Scottish Independence Convention,

30/03/2008 12:21:05
Tom Hunter is of course quite right. The Scottish people should get the opportunity to decide and that is precisely what the Scottish Independence Convention's petition "Let Scotland Decide" sets out to do. The petition calls on "the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to conduct a referendum on whether Scotland should again become a sovereign independent state."
Whilst the Convention's support in such a Referendum is clearly for Independence, their Petition is not about Independence as such. It is about democracy, openness and inclusion.
In our view, the form of Scotland's government should be decided by all its people. We reject the attitude of the Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Liberal Democrats in refusing even to consider offering the Independence option to the point that the elected Government of Scotland has been specifically excluded from their discussions.
Our Petition offers to all Scots - including those who disagree with us on the Independence issue - the opportunity to choose.
Our petition is on line at www.scottishindepend
enceconvention.com We are also collecting paper signatures at various points throughout Scotland.
I look forward to Tom Hunter's signature appearing on it in the near future.
96

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 12:22:39
102

Better still can everyone in Scotland have their opinion measured (which is what Tom Hunter asked for) and everyone should recognise is democratic and unequivocal.
It has nothing to do with the UK by the way. Scotlands indpendence can only be measured by people qualifying to vote at a Scottish residency in elections on the qualification date which is usually around 10th October of the preceeding year.
97

sergiesmax,

30/03/2008 12:23:04
why do we have to wait? lets vote now and get it over with.Scots have a right to know were our nation is going and in which direction.Forget about westminster and will it allow the people of Scotland to vote for independence,lets do it for ourselfs we dont need permission from england,what we do need though is some backbone courage and strength,to stand up straight and say, we will, we wante, and we can, have our own country back.Scotland she is a beautyfull land with some of the greatest people in the world,but we as a nation of SCOTS can only be great again when we have our selfrespect back,once again we must stand up and be counted and vote YES for a free and independent SCOTLAND,then we can be a mighty nation AGAIN
98

GMCD,

30/03/2008 12:25:16
lets have the the referendum now...and get this independence issue buried
We don't want it and we don't want the SNP government bleating on about it and blaming all their mistakes on "unionist bogeymen"..

Funny to see many SNP supporters suddenly becoming advocates for further devoution....
99

Clive Hamblin,

South Coast 30/03/2008 12:31:47
Reading some of the previous messages, I'm reminded of the tale of the gentleman who suggested that he'd continue to hold elections until the electorate came up with the 'correct result.'

Sound familiar ?
100

John S,

30/03/2008 12:32:47
#91- The Scottish Government can at any time can propose a bill for a referendum which would get defeated, then the opposition would propose a vote of no confidence which they would win. The oppositon would then have 28 days to form a new Scottish Government or elections would follow. I think ?
#100 - Scotland on Sunday - Sun 8 Apr 2007 - Labour's Margaret Curran added: "It's time the SNP was honest with families across Scotland. The Nationalists would cost Scottish families over £5,000 with their high tax plans."
The Guardian - Tuesday April 3, 2007 - So today in Glasgow Mr Blair and Mr Brown will warn that the SNP's promises, even without independence, will cost Scottish families £5,000 a year
101

EWB,

UK 30/03/2008 12:34:19
Independence from England, but not from the EU? What a paradox!
102

walter,

30/03/2008 12:42:24
I recall an argument put on these board before the elections.
Basically it was suggested that since the unionist parties were not supporting a referendum then the people should vote SNP to ensure they got a referendum and then they could go back to voting the party of their choice in an independent Scotland.
I noted at the time it was never considered that the answer may come back to remain in the union.
It was asked at the time if the people did not vote for the SNP to get a referendum but voted others would the nats accept this as an indication that the people did not want a referendum, It looks like they have not.
103

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 12:50:52
107

Where we deal with a devolved issue clearly we must accept responsibility here,and where we deal with a non devolved issue clearly its WESTMINSTER'S RESPONSIBILITY and of course could be part of a world recession etc.We are perfectly well aware of how economics works.
The SNP has never blamed England,but does rightly criticise Westminster government same as everybody does!
The people I quoted were Labour and Tory MPs who supported the Union. Does rebel mean they did not agree with you then?

If you mean they were elected members who spoke their mind, then fair enough,thats why they were elected.One was dishonest (Wilson) whilst the other was very honest indeed !
All we want is to measure public opinion in Scotland,not be told what we think, when it has NEVER been measured,and if support is around 25% then Unionists can have no legitimate objection to referenda and destroying our credibility.We are quite happy to be bound by the result (for as long as it is obviously still correct). I have just heard a very learn-ed proffessor respond on TV (in Scotland) that the reason Labour oppose the referendum is because they fear the outcome,because once the campaign to woo voters for the referendum starts,the 25% will probably increase and could easily double!THEY FEAR THE TRUTH is obviously what is correct,otherwise they would go for it. Nicol Stephen explained on a radio phone in that Liberal Opposition to a referendum was justifiable because " He knew of no instance in history where a party had supported a referendum unless they knew what the outcome was in advance" !!!!!!!

I can say this unequivocally because it was MOI who asked him!
104

,

30/03/2008 12:52:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
105

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 12:52:45
"First Minister Alex Salmond said: "I welcome Sir Tom's intervention. Opinion is coming down between those who believe in the right of the people to determine Scotland's future – a position carrying 80% support – and those who don't."

Even Salmond is peddling this ridiculous nationalist lie then.

WHICH POLLS SAY "80% WANT A REFERENDUM?"?

"The National Conversation is galvanising debate, with a positive and enthusiastic response across Scotland."

Less than 0.001% of the population has contributed to the National Conversation.

What happy pills have they got Salmond on?! LOL!
106

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

London 30/03/2008 12:55:08
# I know what you are explaining, no need for that as I am sure that if SNP gets defeated, the Labour and LibDem for a coalition govt, and the arithmetic suggests that even Wendy's suitability will not be an issue then.

My question is, what would happen to Alex Salmond and his independence agenda? My answer to that is that he would go on blaming the unionist parties and would hope that the next election would give him the required majority. I talked to a few of my SNP friends
( they were my colleagues in academia a few years ago), and they believe that is what Salmond do if he fails to push the referendum through in Holyrood, loses and the coalition takes over. All of them dodged my question, 'how certain Salmond is to get a majority next time given the votes distributed on a proportional representation formula'? That leaves me with a suspicion that Salmond and his SNP buddies know that independence may not be achievable and hence his newest referendum formula.
107

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 12:55:12
If there was such massive support even for a referendum, let alone independence itself, how come there isn't a petition in sight that can back this up? Or an opinion poll?

And is there a possibility we go one day without Salmond or one of his palls ramming this tedious non-issue down our throats?

NO-ONE CARES! NEVER HAVE! NEVER WILL!
108

cataibh,

Bo'ness 30/03/2008 12:58:24
More power for Holyrood -- this what labour wants
No change -- this is what tory and lib dems want
Independence this is what the SNP wants.

Oh dear how can the unionists understand such a complicated voting system.
109

david hill,

huddersfield 30/03/2008 13:00:04
Sir Tom is perfectly right in that Scotland needs to know exactly where it stands. Without this decision, which is Scotland's most important decision, Scottish industry and the people of Scotland cannot really plan for the future.
Hesitation and living in a world on the fence, not knowing which way a nation will go, is the greatest threat to the future social and economic status that any nation can have. Indeed, as Sir Tom indicates, politicians should not hold back a nation by their inactions.
But, on a scientific and technological level I have to say that the pointers for Scotland are that it should be an independent nation. In this respect my institution some 15 years ago determined that Scotland per capita was the most innovative nation in the world. In this respect the 5 million or so Scots have created more of how the modern world is today than any other nation. And to put this into perspective, if the USA were completely composed of Scots, their average per capita would most probably be in excess of US100,000 per annum, far greater than what it is presently today and far higher than any other country in the world except Luxemburg’s ½ million people who have a per capita according to the IMF of around US$90,000. This estimation is based upon the fact that all new wealth, not old wealth, is all technology based. Therefore who controls the technology crown controls the greatest wealth in the long-term. So overall, Scotland tomorrow would be far better off in both social and economic terms if it were indeed an independent nation. For in this respect, all social benefits can only be derived through economic means and where the Scottish people have in abundance the vital ingredient that can provide this, innovative thinking at the leading edge of knowledge.

I hope therefore as Sir Tom requests, that Scotland does undertake the process necessary. In this way, the direction of the country has to be determined by the people of Scotland and quickly, for hesitati
110

david hill,

huddersfield 30/03/2008 13:00:23
Sir Tom is perfectly right in that Scotland needs to know exactly where it stands. Without this decision, which is Scotland's most important decision, Scottish industry and the people of Scotland cannot really plan for the future.
Hesitation and living in a world on the fence, not knowing which way a nation will go, is the greatest threat to the future social and economic status that any nation can have. Indeed, as Sir Tom indicates, politicians should not hold back a nation by their inactions.
But, on a scientific and technological level I have to say that the pointers for Scotland are that it should be an independent nation. In this respect my institution some 15 years ago determined that Scotland per capita was the most innovative nation in the world. In this respect the 5 million or so Scots have created more of how the modern world is today than any other nation. And to put this into perspective, if the USA were completely composed of Scots, their average per capita would most probably be in excess of US100,000 per annum, far greater than what it is presently today and far higher than any other country in the world except Luxemburg’s ½ million people who have a per capita according to the IMF of around US$90,000. This estimation is based upon the fact that all new wealth, not old wealth, is all technology based. Therefore who controls the technology crown controls the greatest wealth in the long-term. So overall, Scotland tomorrow would be far better off in both social and economic terms if it were indeed an independent nation. For in this respect, all social benefits can only be derived through economic means and where the Scottish people have in abundance the vital ingredient that can provide this, innovative thinking at the leading edge of knowledge.

I hope therefore as Sir Tom requests, that Scotland does undertake the process necessary. In this way, the direction of the country has to be determined by the people of Scotland and quickly, for hesitati
111

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:00:37
123.

March 2006 Yougov Poll: 82% favour referendum on independence

112

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 13:00:39
118

Walter
The SNP would have no choice BUT accept the outcome of a referendum. They have never disputed this nor could they even begin to.

The need and timing of a subsequent referendum clearly would also be affected by the result.

We had two referenda before independence was implemented.

The rules are exactly the same .
You say and I quote :
"I noted at the time it was never considered that the answer may come back to remain in the union."

Of course it was.Thats whay we are holding a referendum!

It was never considered by whom Walter?
It cannot be ignored is obviously the case,and whatever any individual may think to the contrary,it remains as such and unequivocally so.
WE ARE BOUND BY THE RESULT .

However the result does not run in perpetuity ,or there would be NO countries including the UK!

113

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

30/03/2008 13:01:14
#119 Please answer the following:
"why did you not put SNP with a Holyrood majority? Many of us believe that you lost one in a life-time opportunity."

I add then , if you did not do it when it was an open goal situation, you are unlikely to do it the next time.
114

david hill,

30/03/2008 13:01:30
Sir Tom is perfectly right in that Scotland needs to know exactly where it stands. Without this decision, which is Scotland's most important decision, Scottish industry and the people of Scotland cannot really plan for the future.
Hesitation and living in a world on the fence, not knowing which way a nation will go, is the greatest threat to the future social and economic status that any nation can have. Indeed, as Sir Tom indicates, politicians should not hold back a nation by their inactions.
But, on a scientific and technological level I have to say that the pointers for Scotland are that it should be an independent nation. In this respect my institution some 15 years ago determined that Scotland per capita was the most innovative nation in the world. In this respect the 5 million or so Scots have created more of how the modern world is today than any other nation. And to put this into perspective, if the USA were completely composed of Scots, their average per capita would most probably be in excess of US100,000 per annum, far greater than what it is presently today and far higher than any other country in the world except Luxemburg’s ½ million people who have a per capita according to the IMF of around US$90,000. This estimation is based upon the fact that all new wealth, not old wealth, is all technology based. Therefore who controls the technology crown controls the greatest wealth in the long-term. So overall, Scotland tomorrow would be far better off in both social and economic terms if it were indeed an independent nation. For in this respect, all social benefits can only be derived through economic means and where the Scottish people have in abundance the vital ingredient that can provide this, innovative thinking at the leading edge of knowledge.

Dr David Hill
World Innovation Foundation Charity
Bern, Switzerland
115

rona,

30/03/2008 13:04:19
Nobody works in the Scotsman on Sunday to monitor the threads (I was told). How come posts are being removed?

Hmm....
116

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:05:40
131. Hey where did Spook go??
117

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:07:19
127. The question back then was:

Regardless of whether you support or oppose independence, do you agree or disagree with this statement?
‘The right way to settle the issue of independence is by a referendum of the people of Scotland, rather than in any other way’

That is not support for a having a referendum. That is just saying a referendum is the preferred way of deciding.

A weak attempt at trying to spin this but I shall keep the banana and the cigar.
118

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:08:10
136. Oh dear, people saying "The right way to settle the issue of independence is by a referendum of the people of Scotland, rather than in any other way’" is not support for a referendum?
119

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:08:39
135. Boo. Hoos poos, you been deleted at 131
120

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:09:50
136 contd. Who would say otherwise to that question!!

"No, actually I would prefer a a simple parliamentary vote or just the FM deciding on their own. I don't think a referendum should decide, absolutely not."
121

rona,

30/03/2008 13:10:31
Who is deleting if nobody monitors the threads on a Sunday?

Hmm....
122

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:10:42
139 "Who would say otherwise to that question!!

erm, all the Unionist parties it seems.
123

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:11:40
140. It could be Meths, I hear he is post monitor on Sundays but only when AM2 is taking his British bull-dog for a walky.
124

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 13:11:43
#137 OK,but please enlighten me by answering the following question:
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET THIS REFERENDUM
PASSED BY HOLYROOD GIVEN THE MINORITY
VOTES OF SNP?
Only then it can be put before people.
125

Neil,

Glasgow 30/03/2008 13:11:47
OK so he is rich & a major SNP financier.Doesn't make him particularly expert so why is this the headline news?
126

morris,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 13:11:48
124
A slight change I'm afraid.
However I agree with your general argument of course!

Labour does not favour more powers for Holyrood,she favours different powers for Holyrood.
Whilst she devolves control over Loch Ness monsters and haggis hunting licences etc and other similarly absolutely essential areas , she will also withdraw those areas which facilitate or contribute to opposition to nuclear power stations,nuclear dumping,and TRIDENT.

Thats not the same thing at all of course.
However they will use the term greater devolution ,so that the majority will swallow it hook line and sinker. Think of it as a pay increase from £200 per week to £800 per calendar month !Its the same principle. You get less because much more valuable powers have been taken away!
Those which the SNP sees a use for ,and therefore which do not allow Westminster to DO WHAT THE H**L SHE LIKES .
127

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:14:34
So we STILL do not have any evidence of any support for a referendum as claimed by Our Great Leader and his sheep?

One totally misunderstood poll from 2 years ago is the best they have?
128

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:14:41
146. I think it being held in Inverkip, and starts on Tuesday.
129

rona,

30/03/2008 13:15:32
147

OK. But as there is no poll more up to date, this one will have to do.
130

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:15:56
147 5 polls have included the question on whether Scots favour a referendum, over several years - support for a referendum in those polls ranged between 69-82%.

131

Fish Monger,

30/03/2008 13:16:15
The Scotsman acts like the Labour Party's offical mouthpiece, and this weekend is important to the Labour Party - they can't have any truth getting in the way of their message. Hence, the SoS has employed people to remove any messages counter to their cause. Stalinist? Well, that is the way they acted - control the press.

I give Wendy 10 out of 10 in that respect!
132

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:17:06
Jeez, if even Salmond can't understand the very clear meaning of that question then we are all in a lot of trouble.
133

rona,

30/03/2008 13:17:22
Last month, there were many scurrilous comments made on a Saturday & Sunday. Anti this and anti that. They weren't removed until 6:00pm Sunday. What has changed?
Labour conference over and certain posters back working early in the Scotsman?

Hmm indeed.
134

rona,

30/03/2008 13:18:00
What was the question again?
135

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 13:20:10
136

What we should have is the right to self determination.
You are correct,a referendum is only that,and does NOT favour anyone other than the majority held viewpoint.
IT CANNOT DO ANYTHING ELSE .
Any referendum will produce a result which either (1)kills off independece (for the foreseeable future), (2)produces a result which is borderline and a further referendum will surely follow sooner rather than later,or(3) produce an unambiguous result and declaration of independence.

Which is irrelevant since the result is binding upon ALL of us.We have no choice but accept this.
WHAT IS NOT IRRELEVANT is now we know !
Hold the referendum . Then the majority wish is declared,and no one can contest its findings.
136

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:22:21
157. I heard there were some near fatalities there when some people wandered into the toilets just after Jackie Baillie had used them.
137

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 13:24:33
#156 HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET THIS REFERENDUM
PASSED BY HOLYROOD GIVEN THE MINORITY
VOTES OF SNP?
Only then it can be put before people.
138

walter,

30/03/2008 13:26:26
It was never considered by whom Walter?

If you had read what I said "I recall an argument put on these board before the elections.
Basically it was suggested that since the unionist parties were not supporting a referendum then the people should vote SNP to ensure they got a referendum and then they could go back to voting the party of their choice in an independent Scotland".

It was not considered by those posting.

You say
WE ARE BOUND BY THE RESULT .
However the result does not run in perpetuity

How can you say we are bound by the results and then state the results are not binding.

Also this thick person as you insinuated I am is still awaiting your reply to inform me of when did the UN (not one person) as an organisation officially declare the war on Iraq illegal.
139

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 13:27:07
Lets get this over with for a generation. Maybe there is no call for independence. Maybe there is. If I've got to suffer another 4 years of point scoring and nit picking in Holyrood, I'm off. The unionist parties should call the first minister's bluff and push THEMSELVES for a referendum. Only 3 questions.
1 Independence
2 Dev Max
3 Status Quo

I'm not adding fewer powers or disband Holyrood to the referendum, as all the polls show the majority are for the first two options.
140

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 13:28:04
147

Up until this offering you had some credibilty.What eveidence do we have of lack of support ?
How do you know that the 82% who answered Yes did not understand?
Who gave you authority to decide upon their state of mind when you dont even know who they are!

This is not even stupid !
141

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:29:13
160. There will never be majority support for a referendum. There is no support for one.

There are no petitions, no protest marches and no opinion polls calling for one. Not even the SNP has commissioned a poll into this.

Just like the National Conversation, just like the White Paper, just like the Scottish Convention's petition, just like the No.10 petitions - this is a non-event and a very tiresome one at that.
142

Rembo,

Tayport 30/03/2008 13:29:38
Why do these opportunities to discuss important matters always descend to the level of prsonal insults? The independence issue is, perhaps, the most important that will concern us and affect us for the foreseeable future.

Don't be fooled by those who say Scotland could not survive as an independent country. Look at those who came in from the cold in 1991, after 50 years of Soviet repression. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania all started with nothing. No legal system, no currency, a broken down infrastructure, no health service and no government. Their GDP was, and still is, a fraction of Scotland's. They have their own systems up and running, small airforces, navies and armies. They have all contributed to NATO as new members and they also have direct representation in the EU.

In some respects these small countries are ahead of Scotland and will stay so. Anyone who has visited Tallin, Riga or Vilnius can see what Edinburgh could be, as the capital of an independent country. They make their own choices of direction and enjoy their new-found independence.

Perhaps the real reason why Unionists do not want Scotland to break away is the effect that would have on the Land of Hope and Glory. England (maybe with Wales and N. Ireland, although that can't remain sure forever) would be greatly diminished and no longer the deluded world power it still dreams of being.

In that regard, beware of terms like "independent deterrent", new opportunities in nuclear power and so on. UK Limited is tied to the USA as far as tne Trident prgramme is concerned. Only the French, in Europe have atruly independent deterrent. Only he French, in Europe, it seems have a capable nuclear energy industry. What happened to the advanced gas-cooled reactor programme and the fast reactor prototype at Dounreay? UK Limited blew its chance away. Governments have been obsessed with Trident, strike aircraft and other loss leaders at enormous expense to the country.

Now,an independent
143

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:32:21
164. So when people were asked whether a referendum is the best way of deciding on independence, you actually expect there to be a sizeable vote for 'No'?

Does this mean they want a referendum now? No, it doesn't mean that at all. Of course not.
144

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:35:03
I look forward to some spotty teenager knocking on my door and trying to win my support for independence as part of this 'second phase'!

I'm very interested in seeing what the SNP's script is going to be!
145

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:36:25
168. So how often should we have a referendum then?

Every ten years until the majority say 'yes'?
146

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 13:36:46
Marvelous to see someone of Tom Hunter's status entering the debate, this is really turning up the heat.

If only an average of 25% are supporting Independence without any kind of campaign how high do you think that figure will jump when all the facts which the unionist press have sat on for decades begin to emerge in the inevitable Referendum campaign?

Labour can rearrange the deck chairs as often as they like but the good ship 'United Kingdom' has been severely holed below the waterline and it will soon be obvious to all that it is listing badly.

As for those still arguing that Scotland couldn't stand on its own feet, ignore them, there isn't a serious economist in the UK who supports that nonsense anymore, even the arch unionist AM2 has admitted that we could.

I saw a very encouraging sight on TV yesterday. Despite the usual number of Union Jacks on the terraces I was amazed to see one large section of the Rangers support had as many Saltires as it did Union Jacks.

Very important and encouraging to see the nationalist wing of the Rangers Support showing its colours.

147

brownlie,

glasgow 30/03/2008 13:39:39
147 High and Mighty
It appears you are the only one who misunderstood the poll? No surprise there.
Jack etc ad nauseum
I take it your time in academia was not spent in the study of the English language?
148

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:42:47
171. "If only an average of 25% are supporting Independence without any kind of campaign..."

"WITHOUT ANY KIND OF CAMPAIGN"?! Are you even on this planet?

The SNP have been ramming this down our throats on a daily basis. Daily. Think people, when was the last day independence was NOT mentioned in the papers?

And STILL support is in the 20's.
149

pwd,

Hawick 30/03/2008 13:43:13
Has anyone watched the cycling performance of young people from all over Britain over the last few days. Wonderful! What a joy to be British.
150

weh,

30/03/2008 13:44:11
Why ANY Scot would vote for a continuance of the "union" beggars belief!

It is now crystal clear to anyone with two brain cells or more that, for Scots to send OUR taxes to London, only to have them hand back A FRACTION of these via the barnett "formula" is ludicrous!

The whole of the UK has been robbed blind of its resources, manpower and taxation, ONLY to keep that bloated part of the UK, the city of London, appeased-Its ego is in need of deflating-and FAST!

Unfortunately, the present govt, led by that Scot with well known psychiatric problems, is allowing this situation to continue, as it is TERRIFIED of falling foul of these people in the city, for whatsoever reason.

It is about time that Scots woke up to the fact that, if the SNP are somehow allowed to fail in their mission and labour once again are dominant, then the Scottish people will have retribution foisted upon them by labour, the likes of which no other government in the western world would DARE perpetrate upon their own peoples!

You have been warned!
151

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:47:01
165 "There will never be majority support for a referendum"

There speaks the Unionist Axis of Drivel. Well, so much for democracy, elections and all that, "there will never be a referendum". Despite 69-82% of Scots supprting one, despite senior Labour figures like Brian Wilsona and David Martin supporting one, despite senior Tories and Lib Dems supporting one....

The Unionist Axil of Drivel is awesome in its unitelligible strategy - the constitution is not important they say, Salmond should stop grandstanding on constitutional issues - while they set up a constitutional review group and the PM and Alexander give speeches totally obsessed with independence.
152

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 13:48:05
Walter

United Nations were opposed to the war Kofi Annan said so.He was the Secretary General and their spokesman who gave what was his opinion, but United Nations had reccomended that the inspectors be allowed to continue their inspection.Half the planet heard it upon numerous newsreels and just because you did not hear it does not change the fact that it was so.

Millions witnessed ON AIR that the USA and UK had no backing from the UN and Kofi Annan said so on UK television.Millions witnessed it.

The referenda on devolution were two.

The result of the first one(1979) was accepted until such time as a second one was deemed neccesary so it was not in perpetuity.NOTHING IS IN A DEMOCRACY.That what defines a democracy.

We have elections every four years to measure constant change and on specific issues we hold referenda. Nothing can be binding for ever, or the Union of 1707 would become illegal since they do not recognise that Scotland was independent and cannot change from her pervious independence according to your logic!

You may oppose independence Walter but you surely accept that we should know and adhere to what the majority think (not content ourselves with claiming to know)and that majority wish should be prevalent. Otherwise you are not democratic,and Im sure that not true.
153

walter,

30/03/2008 13:48:38
Salmond intends to put the referendum question to parliament in 2010, knowing that the opposition parties will vote it down.
Thus he hopes will garnish support for the SNP in 2011.
If however the SNP get the majority of seats but not an overall majority will he then accept that the people do not want a referendum as they will have voted for parties that do not support one.
The answer we know will be no, he will insist that if they gain seats that proves the people want a referendum that is why more voted SNP but those that voted the other parties did so on other policies and not the referendum.
154

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:49:23
170. How many elections will the Tories lose before they disband forever?

In a democracy, elections are held ad infinitum - events changes, policies evolve, circumstances change. The SNP have said an independence referendum would be once a generation, should they lose the first one. Seems reasonable, or are Scots only allowed one vote, even if the world, Scotland, the UK evolve and change?
155

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:51:02
177/178. And out come the same old tired routines and accusations, pathetically trying to twist words and facts to suit individual arguments.

Nats have been accusing the unionists of blocking a referendum but now senior figures from all unionist parties are apparently supporting one!

Make up your minds, nats! Get onto your little email network and come up with an agreed script for once!
156

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 13:51:43
175
We dont know what the support is .
Neither do you!


THAT WHAT THE REFERENDUM IS FOR.
157

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:51:50
180. and more from the Unioniost Axis of Drivel.

We are told people did not vote for the SNP because they wanted SNP policies, but because Labour was unpopular, or people preferred the SNP colour scheme.... But at the same time we are told people vote for Unionist parties precisely because of whatever policy the Unionist Axil of Drivel is articulating - today its opposition to a democratic referendum.

So, to summarise the Axis of Drivel - no vote for the SNP is ever a vote for SNP policies, but all votes for Unionist parties is a vote for any and all policies opposed to the SNP.
158

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:52:43
183. Unionist parties are indeed opposed to a refendum. Despite senior figures in all parties who support one.

159

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/03/2008 13:53:17
#92 Morris

I am not bothered one way, or the other, about 'independence'. However, your logic about Adam Smith publishing his opus in Great Britain, hence Scotland should be independent, is a bit bizarre.
160

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:53:53
181. How many elections have the SNP lost, yet the party that gave us this unwelcome reputation of 'money-grabbing whingers' is still here.
161

John S,

30/03/2008 13:55:35
Why have a referendum now when there could be a UK general election next year (or May 2010 at the latest) and the SNP could have more seats at Westminster along with a change in Government.
The Scottish Government can propose a bill to hold a Scottish consulative referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and would have support of the Scottish Tories (if they follow their national party) and the Scottish Green Party.
TNS System Three poll carried out in late November and early December 2007 the question was whether they agree or disagree that the Scottish Government should "negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
I agree -40%
I do not agree -44%
Don't know-16%
TNS System Three poll from Aug 2007 when for the same questions the result was:-
I agree - 35%
I do not agree - 50%
Don't know - 15%

162

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 13:55:40
186. You are all over the place. Go and regroup.

I'm off to enjoy my Sunday. I'll see how silly this board gets later tonight.
163

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:55:46
188. I don't suugest the Tories should disband, I m,erely amde the pint that in a democrarcy parties can lose, but come back and argue for their positions at later elections.

As for "money grabbing whingers" - is thi show the Unionist axis of drivel see Scotland? And can you explain why the SNP, which wants Scotland to be independent and take zero money from Westminster, encourages this "reputation"? Surely it is the unionists who prefer dependency on Westminster who foster such a "reputation"?
164

Enigma,

30/03/2008 13:56:09
84

Morris

Sadly, to many of your compatriots Scottish nationalism and dislike for the English are similes. This is a shame because they do their cause no good at all. Having visited the Scotsman site regularly over the past six months or so, it seems there is hardly a problem in the World which to some here, cannot be blamed on English arrogance, imperialism, greed, deceit, stupidity or aggression.
165

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:56:58
190. AM2 slinks off....
166

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 13:56:59
183

Unionists are not supporting a referendum. They are opposed .
I personally asked Nicol Stepehen why he was opposed. I thinkhe would have mentioned I was wrong......if I was wrong !
167

George Mackay,

Coupar Angus (visiting my Auntie Jean) 30/03/2008 13:59:03
I'm not surprised that Tom Hunter is Scotland's richest man. The price of tyres at Kwikfit is extortionate. You're better off going anywhere except Kwikfit.
I wouldn't trust Tom Hunter about anything.
168

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:59:20
192, and having changed moniker, Highland Nightly and AM2 returns once more, to "enjoy his Sunday"

169

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 13:59:48
197, yes, probs
170

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 14:00:18
It got very silly very quickly, didn't it!

LOL!
171

Geoff,

sa 30/03/2008 14:00:40
175 Highland Mighty-We could also say that we have 75% for the Union without any kind of campaign!!

Seriously though the simple solution as I postulated inpost 108(and nobody asked me what it was-sniff) is as follows-There is no going back to the good old/bad old days of Westminster rule-the devolution cat is half out of the bag never to be coaxed in again so the status quo is also ano-no. So where to? Only one way-a national convention on the future constitutional status of the UK-not half baked Uni or Nat go it alones. This can only come from Westminster givingEVERBODY from all corners of the Kingdom,a say.Out of that, I would hope that 4 equal Parliaments for E,I,S and W would emerge. No more"youve got more power than I have" spats. Westminster returned to its role as BRITISH Parliament and the English nationalism that has arisen over the last few years from the unfairness of the present setup is satisfied. This new setup would then be offered to all the citizens of GB and Ni as one option-the other two being the status quo or independence for their respectivehome nation. I predict that if a free and fair debate is held followed by a referendum, the federal solution would prevail. Unionists have nothing to fear from a referendum but we do owe it to that sector of the populace that favour independence not to mention trying hopefully to put this thing to bed so we can talk about something else!!
Love to all!
172

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:00:50
200. Hoos poos to the 200, and yes, LOL, AM2 needs to work on his "exit stage left" a bit more.
173

puskas,

East kilbride 30/03/2008 14:01:59
Interesting report in the Scottish Sunday Express.

Regards the Chancellor Mr Darling about to screw Scotland with further taxes on windpower, sea power generation etc.

Comparisons with oil etc..

A good read that I haven't found in any other Sunday newspaper.

Independence is the way forward. The only way.

I look forward to reading more excellent posts from AM2 like yesterday when it was said time to go to bed (or similar). Exelled ................

The unionists on this site I ask you 1 question :

Is the Nu Liebour party in Scotland a viable option to govern our country ?. If the answer is no why vote for them.
174

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:02:59
203, well except for 50 years of scare mongering, £5000 SNP tax bills, "you won't able to visit your Granny in Blackpool", house price collapse if SNP win, border posts, Scotland the Albania of europe, negative, fear mongering, smears and lying, yes, not much of a campaign for the Union
175

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:08:04
207. How awful, in a democracy, the SNP putting forward its views.
176

,

30/03/2008 14:08:59
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177

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 14:11:34
George Mackay @198

*I'm not surprised that Tom Hunter is Scotland's richest man. The price of tyres at Kwikfit is extortionate. You're better off going anywhere except Kwikfit.
I wouldn't trust Tom Hunter about anything*

This is decidedly a non-sensible post. Tom Hunter is not Tom Farmer. I bet you think Hilary Benn is a woman.
178

Bodee,

Kirkcaldy 30/03/2008 14:11:36
No 4
Why is it that whenever Independence is spoken about people like you come away with "our own medical system, our own army , navy , etc,"
Why don't you list the other side of the arguement, summed up in one word "CONTROL"
We do manage at present to run our own health service and we have our own judiscial system. Do these work? Of course they do.
Therefore why can you not see the benefits of the Scottish People (via their Independent Government) deciding:-
If we want to invade a foreign land.
If we want to have Nuclear weapons in our country.
If we want our country used for nuclear waste dumping.
If we want Nuclear Power Stations built to benifit english power needs.
If we want to protect our fishing rights.
If we want to pour our money into english imperialism.
If we want to build all our facilities South of Watford.
The list is endless but people like you can only talk about armies and navies and "etc"(the great scaremongerers non specific bogeyman)
179

European Scot,

30/03/2008 14:13:37
It is amazing how Unionists on the one hand have this firm belief that the people of Scotland are not interested in Independence, yet on the other are so against having a referendum.
If you were given a cast iron tip that a certain horse was going to win, wouldn't you be inclined to back it ?
Perhaps not, if the tip wasn't from a reliable source.
The Unionist avoidance tactics on a referendum do stand out in a telling way.
As for Sir Tom Hunter's comment about a quick settlement.
I don't think that would be a good idea, the time-scale Alex Salmond has given is more realistic.
The population of Scotland has not exactly been well informed on the subject of Independence by biased Unionist press and Broadcasters.
More accurate information, more balanced discussions showing the case for both Unionist and Independence standpoints is needed.
To move quickly won't give many people in Scotland the opportunity to make a considered judgement, if all they have had to go on is based upon the one-sided opinion they have been fed by a Unionist media.
The Internet has clearly brought some balance back, and seems to have had an effect judging from Wendy Alexander's reactions recently.
Unfortunately much of the population is not computer savvy, and is not exposed to other points of view, relying on newspapers, radio and television for its information.
Not exactly a balanced menu.
What do you do when the major news outlets are all singing from the same Unionist hymn sheet ? How do you counter that ?
Perhaps if Sir Tom launched a truly independent newspaper in Scotland with balanced views.
How about converting this one ? That would be a challenge.
180

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:13:45
212. I thought Hilary Benn was an mountain climber who specialised in wee Scottish mountains?
181

,

30/03/2008 14:14:43
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182

,

30/03/2008 14:14:44
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183

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 14:16:05
192

I speak for myself (and it is also the offical policy of the party of which I am a member ).We do not blame the people living in England, who in my experience are very democratic in their views,and noticably tolerant of our aspirations .The same cannot be said of Westminster politicians of course(and notbaly Scots Mps).

I do not deny that their is ill feeling, but that is on the part of individuals, on both sides of the border, and has no bearing upon the right to self determination, nor does it reflect in any way upon the strength of the Scottish economy.
In any case what happens in Scotland is a matter which can only be voted upon ,by people qualifying to vote at Scottish addresses ,and any such view is therefore futile and counter productive,and I would agree with you 100% on that. I may attack individuals but I DO NOT BLAME THE PEOPLE OF ENGLAND and I live with a girl from the Merseyside part of former Lancashire.I detest anti English sentiment as much as I detest any kind of racism or sectarianism or division.In my exprience anti English/monarchy feeling was more often found in the Labour party ranks, and I condemn it there also of course.I am myself a republican,but I abide by the majority held view ,and belong to a monarchist party (in policy), but there is no doubt republicans exist in the SNP and Labour Parties, and we dont know how many there are for sure either!

Anti English/British feeling exists world wide after our invasion of Iraq.Individual Scots are not peculiar in that respect, and to my certain knowledge my Geordie brother in law and his mates have far less time for the "Sooth" than any Jock I ever met!We are all intolerant toa degree if the truth be known.
184

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:16:38
217. Fakey, begone
185

walter,

30/03/2008 14:16:57
179
I was opposed to the war as were many others, I however do not accept it to be illegal just because I and other oppose it.
It has never been declared as illegal by any body that has the authority to do so.
People who state it as an illegal war are stating falsehoods.
Saying the UN opposed the war does not mean they have legally declared it illegal.

I do oppose independence and will continue to do so until some one can put an argument across that will change my mind (name calling does not do it for me).
I am democratic, I believe that we elect politicians to represent us and that they should do that.
79 MSPs represent parties that said they do not support a referendum so we should not be discussing having a referendum when only 47 MSPs represent a party that said they would hold one.
They should be running the country until 2011 until they can bring it up again, then see how the people vote.
186

pwd,

Hawick 30/03/2008 14:17:43
As I said the other day, we had a referendum at the last elections for the Scottish Parliament when the people of Scotland had the opportunity to vote overwhelmingly for the SNP and to show just how much they wanted independence. In the event only 17% of the electorate voted for the SNP and 83% did not. In election after election during my voting lifetime (40+ years), whether for Westminster or Edinburgh, the result has been the same; the overwhelming majority of Scots show that they do not want separation from the Union. Perhaps a atraight yes/no referendum is the only way we can put an end to the incessant secessionist drivel we've had to listen to this last couple of years.
187

,

30/03/2008 14:19:14
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188

,

30/03/2008 14:20:40
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189

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 30/03/2008 14:20:49
Maybe a little late in the debate to put the boot in to Gaffer from Kamloops. (When do these guys get up?)
Considering Gaffs situation in the dead centre of the province we generally refer to as the Left Coast of Canada, it's easy to understand his attitude of appeasement and supplication to Westminister overlords.
With a slimy Liberal premier in Gordo Campbell (how do you like the phoney 2.4 cents a litre greenhouse gas tax so far, Gaff?) and who ever it is running the NDP these days, BC politics is either left or more left.
Gaffer is just an overseas Gordon Brown. Even the weak kneed rhetoric sounds hauntingly familiar.
Meanwhile in right-thinking Alberta, Hunter's words are music to Albertan-Scots ears.
Put it too a vote. And send Broon and Whiny packing.
190

puskas,

East kilbride 30/03/2008 14:20:51
The answer to AM2's rants and stats lies within the unionist parties fears that the Independence vote would win.

Their self importance comes before the Scottish peoples right of determination. No doubt they will pay whenever the next GE takes place..

As I mentioned yesterday in the Scotsman the voters intentions in EK have definately swung Nationalist. Whether enough that remains to be seen to demob Ingram. The coward who refuses to debate Iraq and the middle east, and tells you to get on your bike..I can assure him I have no intention of being in tandem with Bendy.
Seriously any shift in voters intentions like EK would gain the SNP many seats more than at this time. That there is no doubt.

I think a good lawyer would make a good deal of money for a client when sueing a unionist on their Naz- soundbites..
Deplorable
191

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:22:48
221. Surely you mean "Why not try it ?!"

192

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 14:25:21
212

Whats even funnier is Tom Farmer does not own KWIK FIT either ! He sold it years ago as far as I am aware,and I actually met him once at a garage in Jocks Lodge in Edinburgh.A thoroughly decent man in my opinion.

Labour voters destroy themselves by publicly demonstrating just how little of what they "know" is correct, and what is popular misconception,but we have the Hootsmon and the Daily Retard to thank for much of that of course.
193

puskas,

East kilbride 30/03/2008 14:26:22
No222 pwd,

Pardon... Please explain.
194

Publius,

Girvan 30/03/2008 14:27:03
#217 Highland Mighty

I agree that the latest polls are very interesting. In England the polls are showing the biggest Tory leads since Thatcher's time. In Scotland the SNP has opened up a lead over Labour for both Westminster and Holyrood.

An interesting question is whether the Tories will eventually revive in Scotland...of whether the SNP has has permanently occupied the place that used to belong to the Tories. Parties tend to revive in their heartlands first. Logically the Tories should revive first in south east England (now happening very strongly), then the midlands, then northern England, then Scotland. Look at the English local election results (election 1st May) to see whether the Tories have broken out of their south east heartland.
195

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 14:27:11
#222... No one has a clue who voted for what in the last Scottish election. All we know is that the SNP got one more seat and formed a minority government.

The shambles that was that election caused by Alexander the Grate was and still is an international disgrace one that Mugabe would have been proud of.

To clutch at that particular straw just shows the desperation of the unionist cause. The desperation you could read in the face of Brown and Alexander who delivered what I consider the worst speeches to conference from party leaders ever heard.

They were dry sterile and full of negative rhetoric and anti- SNP ranting. Labour have not turned any corners they are still sliding down the hill and have a long way to go. As long as Alexander continues on her personal crusade without consulting the party they will continue their descent.
196

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 14:27:12
#222... No one has a clue who voted for what in the last Scottish election. All we know is that the SNP got one more seat and formed a minority government.

The shambles that was that election caused by Alexander the Grate was and still is an international disgrace one that Mugabe would have been proud of.

To clutch at that particular straw just shows the desperation of the unionist cause. The desperation you could read in the face of Brown and Alexander who delivered what I consider the worst speeches to conference from party leaders ever heard.

They were dry sterile and full of negative rhetoric and anti- SNP ranting. Labour have not turned any corners they are still sliding down the hill and have a long way to go. As long as Alexander continues on her personal crusade without consulting the party they will continue their descent.
197

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 14:27:35
222 pwd

Why are you giving percentages of the electorate? Those not voting have no say. Please supply percentages of voters voting.

Not a sensible post. Here's some analogies.

It's like giving the percentage of people who die of smoking-related illnesses yet including non-smokers.

It's like giving the percentage of people who die of problems related to alcoholism yet including non-drinkers.

Do you get it? I mean really. Do you get it now?

198

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:32:32
233. WHy don't you use your own moniker to post ?

199

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 14:34:21
Continuing from my sensible post of 234.

14 people per 100,000 die of alcohol related illnesses each year in the UK. This includes people who don't drink alcohol.

Do you get it now?
200

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:34:43
237. What, using a brillo pad for a hair piece?

Hey, is the Fiddler's Rally at Aviemore finished now?
201

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 14:35:12
222

The argument of secession is not drivel.Its a sound economic argument which Unionists far better educated than you have often admitted is correct.
They dispute whether Scotland should leave certainly but NOT on economic grounds!They cannot!
The McRone Report confirms the SNPs claims and they were constantly checked by Fraser of Allander anyway.

You are entitled to disagree with seperation,but you are not entitled to disenfranchise peoples right to self determination.I listen to Unionist arguments daily and would never refuse the right to freedom of speech.If you dont want to read certain contributions then so be it !

Dont read them !
Nobody forces you ,and you enjoy the same rights as everybody else . That is as it should be.
202

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:35:50
238. the 14 included people who don't drink alcohol? How odd.
203

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 14:37:47
242

Indeed as you say. It's odd. Deaths from alcohol/smoking etc are given as per 100,000 of the population or as a percentage. No account is taken as to whether someone is a drinker/smoker.
204

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:39:45
243. Usually election results are quoted as % people who voted. You can of ocurse quote them as a % of the population, like saying 18% of people voted Labour at the last UK election, yet Labour have an absolute majority.

This new way of quoting results started when the SNP won. How odd.
205

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 14:39:55
#220. Well said. The referendum is a non-starter as long as 79MSPs are against it and 47 MSPs are for it until 2011. I tried to get this out from SNP supporters, but all they was to point out my typos and English. They know that SNP had a golden opportunity in 2007 to go for a majority and they did not get it. In 2011, if Salmond were to last until then as FM, his government will have a record and that he has to defend. Any record has two sides and he will have difficulty in defending it. I know what he will do. Blame Brown, England, the green men from Mars and any one else other than him.

The PR formula that operates for electing MSPs or for that matter any PR will not give an outright majority
to any one party in its normal run. My guess is Alex Salmond and his friends would still be in a devolved Scotand 10 years from now blaming England and other parties. They had a chance in 2007 and they did not succeed. Everything else is a mere illusion.
206

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 14:41:51
241 should read McCrone Report *(not to be confused with an education report some years later which is also referred to as McCrone Report).
207

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 14:42:57
continuing.

When it is said 2 out of 5 marriages end in divorce, they obviously only include those married in the first place. According to pwd, we should take the number of divorces per year and give this as a percentage of all UK citizens. Obviously we would have to include people who never married and indeed people from the ages of 1 day - 15. If we used the figures the way pwd uses figures, the state of marriage in the UK would appear very healthy indeed.

I think I've exhausted this subject.

It was also a sensible response to a nonsensical post.
208

pwd,

Hawick 30/03/2008 14:43:38
234 et al

Do you get it? Out of every 100 people on the electorate only 17 felt strongly enough about indpendence to make the effort to vote for the SNP. Only 1 in 3 of those actually voting voted for the SNP, and not all of them want independence. My neighbour voted SNP to give Labour a clip on the ear and intends to revert to Labour next time.

By any measure you want to use the Scots do NOT want to come out of the Union. Do you get it?
209

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 14:45:10
Ayrshire Scot™ @244

"Usually election results are quoted as % people who voted. You can of ocurse quote them as a % of the population, like saying 18% of people voted Labour at the last UK election, yet Labour have an absolute majority.

This new way of quoting results started when the SNP won. How odd"

Does your 18% include people of non-voting age?

LOL
210

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:45:29
249. Was there a referendum on independence I missed? Or is your neighbour some kind of mystic magic 8 ball, national indicator?
211

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:46:47
250. What sort of creature laughs at his own witticism? Especially when the point he is laughing at is exactly the point he was defending before?
212

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:47:44
252. Happy fist day. Best take a wee rubber ringy to sit on on the way back.
213

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 14:50:49
249 pwd

No. I'm afraid you still don't get it. You continue to talk about the electorate. Sorry my friend. If you don't vote you have no say. What percentage of THOSE VOTING voted SNP - and for that matter other separatist parties?
That's all I'm saying. It's not 17%

You also say your neighbour voted SNP to give labour a clip round the ear. What percentage of you neighbours did that?
214

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 14:51:59
The reason I am posting as a fakey is because I am sick to death of the bombastic arrogance displayed on here by the AM/HIGHLAND NIGHTY troll.

So if he/she/it can continue posting and reposting and reposting 24/7 the same garbage then if I can in some way highlight that and upset the troll hut I reserve the right to do so.

SPOOK.........The censorship that is going on on this forum is a bloody disgrace, as we can see with the Taggart posts that were censored.

We have the likes of Lord Foulkes of Buffoonery and Alexander whining about the blogosphere. If I was a psychiatrist I would be very interested in studying the behavior of these mad unionist trolls who live on here, it is quite bizarre.
215

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 14:52:13
253, erm, oops, sorry, you were not defending this silly way of quoting election results, was meant for that pwd chappity
216

pwd,

Hawick 30/03/2008 14:54:45
255 et al

You really must come out of this prolonged period of denial some time: Scots do not want to leave the Union and there is not statistic anywhere that suggests otherwise.
217

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 14:55:54
253
Ayrshire Scot™,
30/03/2008 14:46:47
250. "What sort of creature laughs at his own witticism? Especially when the point he is laughing at is exactly the point he was defending before?"



The fishy dogging troll kimba springs to mind, see what I mean about trolling, the style is unmistakable as with AM/HM/EV/Media1/Gordon the Chairman etc etc etc. Complete madness and insanity at it's most extreme.
218

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 14:55:55
253
Ayrshire Scot™,
30/03/2008 14:46:47
250. "What sort of creature laughs at his own witticism? Especially when the point he is laughing at is exactly the point he was defending before?"



The fishy dogging troll kimba springs to mind, see what I mean about trolling, the style is unmistakable as with AM/HM/EV/Media1/Gordon the Chairman etc etc etc. Complete madness and insanity at it's most extreme.
219

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 14:55:55
253
Ayrshire Scot™,
30/03/2008 14:46:47
250. "What sort of creature laughs at his own witticism? Especially when the point he is laughing at is exactly the point he was defending before?"



The fishy dogging troll kimba springs to mind, see what I mean about trolling, the style is unmistakable as with AM/HM/EV/Media1/Gordon the Chairman etc etc etc. Complete madness and insanity at it's most extreme.
220

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 14:56:45
My mouse has now become hyper it must be a bloody infection from this forum.......
221

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 14:56:45
My mouse has now become hyper it must be a bloody infection from this forum.......
222

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:00:31
WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF UNIONISTS THE TRUTH WILL OUT NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU CENSOR IT YOU MAD MAD FOOLS:


News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be
223

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 15:01:26
259. PWD - You must try to overcome this unionist compulsion of speaking on behalf of all Scots.
224

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:01:33
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
225

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:01:33
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
226

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 15:01:47
245

The Labour Party conference was announcing the fight back has begun,whilst an opinion poll gave the SNP its largest ever showing in history.No one disputes the results of the past? The future is what counts and because Unionist Mps are afraid of a referendum that does not justify opposing the use of one!
The result determines whether there was any demand and it changes constantly as the lastest opinion poll shows since last month!
If a referendum were to be staged there would be constant arguments for and against on our radio tv and in newspapers.The Unionists are afraid of this because they are already losing votes.They would lose even more if we held a referendum and their claim of 25% support is already known to be cobblers with every opinion poll conducted which specifically asks that question showing support at least twice that figure, and one showed desire at 86% apparently. Thats never justifiable as a claim of no desire !

The referendum should take place to establish who is correct and exactly what support exists.
Whats far more significant is that the Unionists are seen to be undemocatic in their refusal. That is worth far more to the SNP than having a referemdum. Do you think we will just lie down and roll over because London parties say so? We will not I assure you.

Scotland will take her independence.When is the variable factor. After the Conservative victory at the GE Labour (Scotland) will be a discredited bunch of bird brains and will capitulate.They will have no choice but embrace independence or they are finished in Scotland as a credible party, because they cannot achieve power in the United Kingdom and have already been kicked out in Scotland as it is !
227

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:01:50
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
228

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:02:06
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
229

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:02:22
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
230

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:02:38
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
231

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:02:39
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
232

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:02:58
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
233

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:14
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
234

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:15
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
235

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:15
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
236

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:34
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
237

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:35
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
238

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:36
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
239

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:36
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
240

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:36
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
241

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:37
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
242

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:38
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
243

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:55
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
244

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:55
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
245

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:56
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
246

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:56
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
247

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:03:57
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
248

,

30/03/2008 15:04:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
249

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:04:27
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
250

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:04:28
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
251

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:04:51
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
252

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:04:52
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
253

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:04:53
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
254

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:04:53
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
255

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:04:54
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
256

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:04:54
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
257

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:04:55
News
Aviemore conference overshadowed as —
Labour suffers more poll gloom

By Campbell Gunn

THE SNP is ahead of Labour in voting intentions for a Westminster election for the first time.

An analysis of the last three UK opinion polls shows the SNP on 36 per cent and Labour four points behind on 32 per cent.

The figures overshadowed Scottish Labour’s conference in Aviemore yesterday.

Just last month the two parties were neck and neck in Westminster voting intentions.But the polls suggest Labour would still return more MPs from Scotland to the Commons because their vote is concentrated in the central belt, while the nationalists’ is spread across the country.

Predictions

The polls predict 23 SNP MPs would be returned, with 26 for Labour. The Conservatives on 18 per cent would have three MPs and the Lib Dems on 10 per cent, seven.

One MP predicted to lose his seat is Defence and Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
A General Election could be called next year — but these worrying figures for Labour make that less likely.

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said, “These polls come supported by election results across Scotland and show the SNP building its support as voters walk away from Labour.

“Far from 10 out of 10, Labour performance in Scotland is in decline. Scottish Labour MPs have failed to stand up for the nation’s interest.”

A Labour spokesman dismissed the poll, saying, “Alex Salmond should spend more time worrying about the fact his plans for higher taxes don’t add up and less time massaging his ego with made-up polls and fictitious predictions.”

Closer ties

The news was a double blow, as the Aviemore conference heard deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman announce Westminster ministers are to seek a higher profile in Scotland in a drive to strengthen party ties across the UK.

Ms Harman said it would be part of a move towards a “new settlement” between Labour in Scotland, England and Wales.
258

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:06:11
Must go the bells are ringing talk soon have a nice day missing you already you fuking unionist zoomers






















































259

Highland Mighty ,

30/03/2008 15:06:11
Must go the bells are ringing talk soon have a nice day missing you already you fuking unionist zoomers






















































260

,

30/03/2008 15:06:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
261

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 15:09:03
301. Stop posting that, we can all read fakey HM
262

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 15:09:30
pwd

According to the official statistics, as a percentage of THOSE VOTING, if you average out the Region & Constituency, the SNP got 31.95% of the vote.

I'll stick with these figures.
263

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 15:11:04
306, indeed, and pro-independence parties received 39% of the vote.
264

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 15:25:44
308. 38.1% it is. I don't think list votes were more indicative, I just make the point that 38.1% of voters voted for pro-independence parties. Deal with it.
265

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 15:30:10
Turnout for 2007 was 51.72%

Pathetic.

I also notice (for kimba) that the NE turnout for a regional assembly was 47.7%.
266

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 15:31:45
So that's 35.1% pro and 64.9 Union.
267

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 15:33:03
309, so it would seem.
268

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 15:34:38
I meant so that's 35.1% pro-independence and 64.9% pro-Union.

In which case, why not call a referendum now and be done with it? At 64.9% pro-union, it's a walkover. We can then get back to "normal" politics.

..unless of course there's still a nagging doubt in the unionists' minds. I'm not saying there is, but what other reason could there be?
269

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 15:38:35
AM2

For goodness sake man. I'm happy to take your figures as gospel. Stop changing them!

Right so it's NOW (unless AM2 changes his mind again)

pro-independence: 35.15%
pro-union: 62.75%


...unless "somebody" changes the figures. Whatever they are, they're better than pwd's figures.
270

Conan the Librarian™,

30/03/2008 15:39:54
316
AM2
So about a third of the population are pro-independence after a year of SNP rule.
What will it be like in 2010?
271

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 15:40:43
Now it MAY be that some people voted SNP to give labour a kicking, but it's also the case that some pro-independence people don't vote for the SNP. They probably cancel each other out. Who knows?
272

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 15:41:44
318. Hey AM2, did you notice the UK running a massive budget deficit this year, the largest in the G8?
273

John S,

30/03/2008 15:45:05
#245 - If say a Scottish Labour Party MSP became the FM through a vote of no confidence this could set a precident for the future of the Scottish Parliament and question democracy unless an election was called as soon as possible after the vote of no confidence was passed and before the new FM is nominated.
Vote of No Confidence in the Scottish Executive
34. The First Minister must tender his or her resignation and Scottish Ministers, junior Scottish Ministers and Law Officers must resign if the Parliament resolves that the Scottish Executive no longer enjoys the confidence of the Parliament. If the Parliament subsequently fails to nominate a successor First Minister then a general election has to be called. Given the significance of a vote of no confidence we consider that the procedures which should apply to such a vote should be carefully constructed.

274

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 15:49:46
Actually if we add SNP. Margo, the Greens, SSP & Solidarity it's 35.5% pro-independence. Therfore it's:-

pro-independence 35.5%
pro-union 64.5%
275

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 15:51:05
326
AM2,
Scotland,UK 30/03/2008 15:47:42
"Anyway, Homebase beckons. Oh joy!"

New scissors for yer cut & paste?
276

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 15:54:32
325. Interesting that small, successful European countries are not relevant for comparison to Scotland, but suddenly when Iceland, in a period of global economic instability, after years of success, shows some negative indicator, it becomes relevant for you. You are a shameful seclective cherry picker and spinner of the worst kind.
277

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 16:10:24
#324 What you say is not correct.

After a vote of no confidence is passed, that is after a referendum bill by SNP is defeated, the procedure in all parliamentary democracy is that the titular head in this case the Queen asks the leader of the largest party other than the one voted out to form the government and test its strength in the parliament. If as expected the Labour joins in coalition with the LibDems, a stable government will be formed the rest of the life of that parliament. That is the convention/precedence in the House of Commons and indeed in many European countries. If the newly elected FM can demonstrate the majority in the parliament the matter ends there. Calling for the election happens only if the new FM heads a care taker government (which in real sense is a minority govt, and it is not the case if Labour and Libdems join together)

If the labour and Libdems want to humiliate Alex salmond, they may simply defeat the referendum bill, and not table a no-confidence motion. Then the only way Salmond has to keep the remaining respectability intact is to tender the resignation of his government.
That would trigger the formation of new govt.

Alex Salmond and the SNP know that as long as they remain a minority party in Holyrood, their referendum agenda is doomed. That is as simple. Short of massive street demos and civil disobedience movement, he has no chance of getting the referendum if his party is in minority at Holyrood.
278

Booster,

30/03/2008 16:13:23
Tom Hunter has it right and most of the comments above (boring waffling prevaricating nonsense) just prove his assertion.

Lets cut the tripe and have a vote on independence now.
279

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 16:28:50
#331. I agree with you about the waffle.

But how do you get to vote for independence? Only if the bill for the referendum on independence is passed by the Holyrood. With SNP in minority there there is no chance for that happening.
280

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 16:32:35
The longer away the vote is - the better for the SNP.
281

pwd,

Hawick 30/03/2008 16:34:53
*267
I'm speaking on behalf of the 83% of th electorate who didn't vote for independence, and for the c66% who positively voted against it.

*306
I'll go along with your figures. The 1 in 3 I referred to was me being generous to the SNP. Either way the stark truth remains - there is no indication anywhere that the Scottish people want independence.
282

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 16:42:55
The problem with any PR system is that a single party rarely achieves a majority in parliament as the votes are also distributed to other in a proportion. Which means that to get an outright majority the overall winning pecentage has to be very high. on the otherhand, in the first- past -the post- system, the winning percentage is less ( like as in the case of Blair) aand the winner takes all. In otherwords, there is no joy if a prty comes second in a constituency. Ten years ago, the SNP was crying for prportional representation as it felt it may not have enough MEPs. If the first-past-the post system were operating in Holyrood election it would take just a few percentage over 33% to get an outright majority.
283

Amaury,,

30/03/2008 16:47:46
ANDREW MARR: If things are going so well why do only a quarter of Scots say they actually want independence?

ALEX SALMOND: Well it's interesting that the poll last Sunday, the one you're quoting, showed a number of things, actually. It showed that the SNP government was far in the lead, in a double digit lead. But on the question of independence the support for independence now is about a quarter but they also asked the question 'would you vote for independence under certain circumstances', and it was two-thirds of the people in the same poll, the same people, said they would vote and therefore?

ALEX SALMOND:
"But on the question of independence the support for independence now is about a quarter "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/andrew_marr_show/7321392.stm
284

,

30/03/2008 16:47:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
285

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 16:49:47
correction

This is why I can't understand why the unionist parties don't call the bluff.
286

pwd,

Hawick 30/03/2008 16:56:57
*337
I concur 99.99%. It's good to read some common sense. On that happy conclusion to my Sunday foray into the newspapers I must now close and take my good wife out for high tea.
287

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 17:01:28
# 338. I agree. The unionist parties should call Salmond's bluff by voting on a referendum when put to people produces a straight 'yes' or 'no' outcome. With 25 or even 30% low base it is a steep climb to 51% when the 'yes' votes matter- nearly a 21% climb, say in a 4-5 week period before the referendum day. With the credit crunch now and economic down turn,this climb is doubtful. If the referendum is put to people before Winter SNP will lose, and this Salmond knows well and hence he wants to push this to 2010/11 hoping that his fortune will improve.
288

Geoff H,

Fife 30/03/2008 17:06:26
234

Not sure I get you...I assume you are saying non-drinkers SHOULD be included in figures related to deaths involving alcohol which of course is correct.

If a child (presumably a non-drinker in this case) is run over by a car driven by a drunk driver she is obviously a victim of alcohol although she doesn't drink. If a wife/husband is battered to death by a drunken partner she/he is a victim of alcohol. If an alcoholic who hasn't drunk for some time commits suicide because of an inability to handle life is that person not a victim indirectly of alcohol (or more to the point alcoholism).

Is that what you mean? Good. I agree then...
289

Rob7,

England 30/03/2008 17:13:42
Please have a vote, and then leave this horrible union. We don't want you, We don't like you
290

Silence of the Yams,

30/03/2008 17:14:21
Independence will happen. The unionists are slowly becoming dinosaurs.
291

Geoff H,

Fife 30/03/2008 17:18:34
342

Thanks for that. I wish I could say the same, but I have many friends in England and it is a country with many positives. I just don't want to be ruled by England...
292

,

30/03/2008 17:20:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
293

Amaury,,

30/03/2008 17:20:37
ANDREW MARR: If things are going so well why do only a quarter of Scots say they actually want independence?

ALEX SALMOND: Well it's interesting that the poll last Sunday, the one you're quoting, showed a number of things, actually. It showed that the SNP government was far in the lead, in a double digit lead. But on the question of independence the support for independence now is about a quarter but they also asked the question 'would you vote for independence under certain circumstances', and it was two-thirds of the people in the same poll, the same people, said they would vote and therefore?

ALEX SALMOND:
"But on the question of independence the support for independence now is about a quarter "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/andrew_marr_show/7321392.stm
294

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 17:22:11
333. Not necessarily.

For the referendum bill to have any chance whatsoever of passing in 2010, the SNP will have to be strongly ahead in the polls. Anything else and their threat to campaign on the other parties refusing "to allow Scotland its say" will be very hollow indeed.

So, the question is: Will the SNP still be ahead in 2 years time when their lead over Labour is already starting to drop?

After 11 months of the SNP's anti-UK and anti-England statements being reported regularly in the papers, Labour struggling at both Scottish and UK level and no pro-UK campaign yet started; that the SNP STILL have not managed to spark up any enthusiasm for independence or anything close to majority support again does not bode well for this latest campaign.

Labour will regroup, as they did after the 1992 UK Election defeat and as the Conservatives did after the 2003 UK election defeat, and their support will recover.

For some of the SNP and most of their supporters to believe that a win in 2011 is certain, based on the past year alone, is naive to say the least.
295

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 17:25:03
346. But they don't have a "double-digit lead". It's an 8% lead. And falling.
296

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:26:14
348, Come now AM2, you are never really gone....

342 - Rob 7, thanks, however I can't reciprocate, liking the English and England very much.
297

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:31:06
347. Nothing is certain, and no one can predict how people will vote. Which is why you should doing it with posts that state " a referendum will never happen". If you actually believed that, why do you post about ut?
298

Amaury,,

30/03/2008 17:32:33
#351 AM2

I note no comments from the snp stalwarts. No comments at all.


AM2 enjoy
299

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:32:40
352, Come now AM2, it was you yourself who introduced the phrase "unionist vodoo" in relation to your posts.
300

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 17:33:54
351. And there everyone was quoting "40%" support in argument against my 23%.

Even Our Great Leader agrees with me.

Shame on you all. Really.

Now about this "Scotland pays for Trident" claim?
301

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:34:29
351. Support for independence is probably between 23-44%, in polls. The only way to actually measure it is in a referendum. Should people vote against it, all democrats will accept the result. Why unionists get in such a froth and fankle about polls and opposing a free vote is beyond me.
302

Geoff H,

Fife 30/03/2008 17:35:18
351

Comments shall be made when something worth comment is posted. Otherwise they gain the response they deserve which is none. Thanks for giving me the opportunity of clearing this up for you.
303

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:40:14
359. He said it because he may think it, or that is what current polls show, I am not privvy to the inner ponderings of Mr Salmond. I am not that much interested in polls, as they cannot resolve the issue.

Yes, I excuse your error in attributing vodoo statements to me, when I merely repeated your own.

304

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 17:43:03
360. Even denying the accuracy of Salmond himself?

You're stubborn, I'll give you that.
305

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:44:15
361. AM2, no, independence has been polled variously in the last 6 months, in different poll questions and methodologies, between 23% and 44% (System 3 poll).
306

Geoff H,

Fife 30/03/2008 17:45:38
So given that 1 in 5 or 1 in 4 people are in favour of Independence (and this is obviously a guesstimate) would it not therefore be prudent in the interests of all concerned and in the interest of democracy to go to a referendum on the subject?
307

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:46:23
362. No one can know the support for independence without a referendum. If its a quarter and only 25% vote for it in a referendum, then I'd accept that result.
308

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 17:48:54
#359. I watched it this morning. Andrew Marr said it was a recorded interview which meant that salmond had enough time to corrrect himself. Salmond has to accept the 25% poll claim, but the way he was saying it suggested that he is hoping the percentage to improve after SNP in power for a couple of years more.
What puzzles me is the LibDems and Labour in Holyrood not encouraging him to table the referendum bill and passing it with the condition that he puts it people for vote this year. If he loses, more likely he will,SNP is finished for a generation as it is a single issue nationalist party.
309

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:49:23
365. AM2, given polls have shown a double digit lead recently for the SNP in Holyrood intentions, and the latest poll shows I think an 8% lead, and Salmond himself has a 75% lead over Alexander, I don't think him stating a "double-digit" lead is disingenous.

As for the two-thirds, that is how the MRUK Cello poll results were reported, but obviously we'd need access to the database to see how much of the 24% who would vote for independence if a Tory government were elected and the 20% who said they would vote for it under "certain circumstances" did or did not overlap. My impression from the poll was they did not overlap, as the options were exclusive, but I am not sure.
310

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:50:35
367. You can't have it both ways - Unionists keep saying people did not vote SNP for independence. If that is true, losing an independence referendum doesn't mean the SNP will lose subsequent elections.....
311

George Mackay,

Coupar Angus (staying with my Auntie Jean and her 30/03/2008 17:50:40
#212 You write that my last post is 'decidedly a non-sensible post'.
Wait for my next post. You ain't seen nothing yet.
312

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:51:49
367. And don't forget, "devoltion will kill the SNP stone dead". Welcome to Scotland, governed by the SNP, with the political agenda dominated by independence....
313

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:53:05
372. AM2, I repeat, I think support for independence is between 23-44%. I don't know what it is, nor do you. The only way to know is to have a referendum. Debating polls is rather sterile and pointless.
314

Enigma,

30/03/2008 17:54:34
218

`Anti British/English feeling is common world wide particularly after out invasion of Iraq, Scots are not unusual in that`.


Why write British/English. It was a British Government decision and whatever your view of the War, the English had even less say than the average Scot?

Post-colonial antipathy toward Britain may be explainable though why this always devolves upon the English is less clear, unless of course it is the usual conflation of the English and British, which appears to be widespread amongst Scottish contributors to this sitel, on negative issues at least.

I know there are some English people who express rabidly anti-Scots sentiments. I don`t condone it but it is largely reactive. The point is that my experience of almost any thread which refers to devolution, oil, power, independence, taxation, Olympics to name a few, seems to result in a crime sheet of perceived wrongs being levelled against my country by a significant proportion of contributors, to whom we appear no better than the Third Reich, or perhaps the Chinese in Tibet?
315

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:55:09
372, but either way, the constitutional direction is all one way - more powers, greater devolution, all powered by the SNP victory - suits me fine - all aboard the gradualist train .....
316

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 17:56:46
375. They were reported in a way that suggested they were (The Tory Government and a Labour government at Westminster were both options, they seem exlsuive...). If not, would be interesting to see what the overlap was.
317

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 17:59:29
#367
If referendum is lost, the major weapon in the SNP armoury is gone. What will the party stand for with the single issue of independence fading? I said if Scotland wanted independence they should have given Salmond a majority in Holyrood. With that not achieved looks like not achievable, the unionist parties to take initiative and call his bluff. In the south of the Border we leave it Scots to vote for independence or stay. That is their choice.
318

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 18:02:01
One other thing Andrew marr ask Salmond. Salmond is still an MP at Westminster and all the benefits that go with it.
319

Geoff,

sa 30/03/2008 18:06:56
208-Ayrshire scot-What I was trying to illustrate is that you can say that both sides have or havent campaigned depending on your viewpoint! Of course the Unionists have been campaigning for the Union-very poorly im my opinion but then you must concede that the Nationalists have been campaigning for an independent Scotland -as vigorously at least as the brits and in my opinion,putting their case much better than the Unionists! All of this following from 171's comment that support for independence was 25% without any campaigning!
320

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 18:08:20
384. Of course, both sides are campaigning.
321

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 18:08:43
383. So what?
322

Geoff,

sa 30/03/2008 18:12:30
342 Rob7-who's we?
323

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 18:14:19
387. Rob7 is part of the unionist charm offensive I think. As usual with unionist charm offensives, more offensive to Scotland than charming
324

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

30/03/2008 18:15:53
386. So what! Why can't let a bylection to take place? Scottish matters are out of bounds at Westminstereing the FM in Scotland why does need to sit at both Westminster and Holyrood?
325

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 18:17:00
389. He has said he will stand down at the next election. Not all Scottish matters are "out of bounds" at Westminster.
326

Geoff,

sa 30/03/2008 18:18:28
385 Ayrshire-both my teams won yesterday! Sharks beat the Reds and of course there was the other game..I DO agree with Hunter about a referendum but feel that the alternatives need clear definition and explanation by all parties before posing the questions(see my post at 203) These are BIg decisions affecting millions and need careful consideration.
327

Mr Scotland,

30/03/2008 18:20:28
AM2 are you so sad you spend a saturday night wating for a new story to appear then post instataneously. How the other half live.

100 % of posters think you sound like a broken record.
328

Highland Mighty,

30/03/2008 18:23:16
384. Apart from lengthy circular debates on newspaper websites, pro-UK campaigning has been minimal to say the least.
329

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 18:23:44
390 So nationalists want to influence Westminster and if Brown comes and speaks in Scotland, you do not like him. I now understand why in the secrecy of voting booth most of you still hesitate to cut the link and why the polls show only 25% wanting independence. It is my prediction-you will still be debating about independence 10 years from now. If most Scots wanted independence, with devolution in place, it would have happened by now.
330

Geoff,

sa 30/03/2008 18:26:02
388-Ayrshire-wouldnt want him on my team!Off to join the wife on the couch-catch u later AS!
331

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/03/2008 18:29:00
395. Hoos Poos to your teams winning, nad happy couching Geoff

394. The SNP does not vote on English only matters in Westminster. Pensions, social security, gun laws, taxation, fiscal policy, the budget of the Scottish Government, the terms of devolution - all impact on Scotland and are reserved to Westminster - the SNP of course seek to influence these.

We may well be debating independence in 10 years, or the SNP may win an independence referendum. Who know, but that is democracy.
332

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 18:29:15
Middle Watch @345
#338 #340

"When AS talks about holding a referendum on the question of Independence.

You think he's bluffing?"

No. I suggested the unionists call his bluff - if it is a bluff. Could be a double-bluff!
333

Stefania Alvarez,

30/03/2008 18:30:30
Sad parochial numpty-ism ... that is all you

SNP drones are ...!!!

glorious cogs in Salmond's career.

Welcome to nowhere-land.
334

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 18:32:13
Highland Mighty @347

What I said was that the longer he waits the better. I posted this as you keep posting there's no call for independence just now. "If" what you say is correct, then the longer he waits the better. That was my only point Highland. If there's no call for it now, then the furure is the time - eg 2010 as per manifesto.
335

Stefania Alvarez,

30/03/2008 18:35:34
What lies behind Alex Salmond's smarmy smug grin ??

Answer ... one simple phrase:
"Lap it up suckers !!!!!"
336

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 18:37:13
Ayrshire Scot @ 366

*No one can know the support for independence without a referendum. If its a quarter and only 25% vote for it in a referendum, then I'd accept that result.*

Then again, maybe those polled who are against independence wouldn't bother to vote! At 52% voting last May, who really knows? The 25% could be 30+%.
337

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 18:38:51
#396. The question is Why Salmond should be sitting in Westminster when he is the FM of Holyrood? Is it that he is not himself convinced of his FMship continuing for long? Sounds like he is keeping it should the independence project hitting the buffer?

Should I look forward debating with you about SNP and opportunity lost through to 2020?

338

The Sensible One,

Larbert 30/03/2008 18:40:15
George Mackay @371

#212 "You write that my last post is 'decidedly a non-sensible post'.
Wait for my next post. You ain't seen nothing yet."

Still waiting George. This would be your post confusing Tom Farmer with Tom Hunter?