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Hunter: Lets vote on independence



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Published Date: 30 March 2008
SCOTS should be allowed an immediate independence referendum, the nation's richest man declares in an exclusive article with Scotland on Sunday today.
Billionaire tycoon and philanthropist Sir Tom Hunter says a vote is needed to avoid constitutional dithering and let Scotland move on, either as an independent country or as part of the UK.

Hunter also issues a stinging attack on all the political
parties in Scotland – both Nationalist and Unionist – accusing them of "posturing, positioning and pontificating" in their attempts to reform the constitution.

Hunter's dramatic entry into the row over the constitution comes after Labour, the Liberals and Tories last week unveiled their plan to back an independent commission to look at boosting Holyrood's power while stopping short of independence.

First Minister Alex Salmond last week unveiled the next stage of his "National Conversation" on independence, before publishing a Referendum Bill at the Scottish Parliament, probably in 2010.

Hunter says the separate approaches have confused the public and the matter should be resolved immediately and simply.

He writes: "The problem is there isn't an informed debate and there is a hell of a lot of confusion… You and I would be entitled to be both confused, disillusioned and frankly fed up with the posturing, positioning and pontification that is informing, or ill-informing, this debate."

He adds: "It is my firm belief that the Scottish people deserve the right to vote unequivocally on one key issue. Other issues follow, but there is only one vote: do you want Scotland to be independent or not? Yes or no?

"We need a majority of Scots to say 'yes' or 'no' to independence, end of story… a referendum is compelling because we Scots want an answer to our future now so that we can invest in it, whatever we choose, for our collective future over the long term."

Declining to back either option, Hunter concludes: "This decision is beyond politics – it is our right as a nation to determine our destiny, not for politicians to determine it for us. Hence it is my firm belief that the answer to this issue is relatively simply: let the people of Scotland decide."

Hunter goes on to attack the suggestion by Salmond last week that a referendum might be held under the Single Transferable Vote system, under which voters mark down their preferences, rather than voting for or against. He describes such a system as "Simon Cowell's X Factor voting system".

"You simply cannot utilise an STV system to determine Scotland's fundamental future," says Hunter.

But he also has harsh words for Labour, Tory and Lib Dem leaders who have refused to countenance a referendum so far. "Democracy, and that's what that is, is not something any politician should be afraid of. Otherwise, they should not be in politics at all," he says.

Despite his criticism of the STV system, Hunter's comments were met with delight by the SNP.

First Minister Alex Salmond said: "I welcome Sir Tom's intervention. Opinion is coming down between those who believe in the right of the people to determine Scotland's future – a position carrying 80% support – and those who don't.

"The National Conversation is galvanising debate, with a positive and enthusiastic response across Scotland. The SNP's first choice is to have a for or against referendum on independence, and 2010 is the right sort of timescale."

Salmond said his Government had signalled it was willing to include the option of enhanced devolution on a ballot paper, if the London-based parties could agree on such a specific scheme.

He said: "Labour will struggle to explain their opposition to allowing the people to choose their own future, even one that includes their preferred option. In 1992, it was Gordon Brown himself who demanded that all organisations support a 'persistent, determined and concerted' campaign to force the then Tory government to accept a multi-option referendum on Scotland's future."

However, the Unionist parties said they would not be changing their mind on a referendum.

A spokesman for Wendy Alexander said: "Sir Tom is entitled to his opinion. It doesn't appear most people in Scotland want one, with recent polls showing less than a quarter support independence. A clear majority at Holyrood believe that after 10 years, it is only right to look again at the devolution settlemen."

He added: "If Alex Salmond had the nerve to call a straightforward referendum, undoubtedly he'd lose, but a few years down the line he'd be calling for another one."

A spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives said: "We know from Quebec that unfortunately a referendum wouldn't be the end of it. The Nationalists would want to have a neverendum. Furthermore, a referendum could only take place if there were a majority of MSPs who supported it at the Scottish Parliament. That majority doesn't exist."

A Lib Dem spokesman added: "If the SNP believed their own spin, they could call a referendum on independence immediately.

"It is the job of the supporters of independence to make the case for a referendum. Our task is to build a cross-party consensus to strengthen the Scottish Parliament."

Labour sources claimed last night that the question of whether to back a referendum in order to "spike the nationalists' guns" had been discussed at "the highest levels" of the party.

It is understood that one reason why the strategy has been ditched is because it would be impossible to back a referendum in Scotland while Downing Street was denying the rest of the UK a referendum on the European treaty.





The full article contains 926 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Richardinho,

30/03/2008 00:13:11
Those last two paragraphs are most offensive; '
Labour sources claimed last night that the question of whether to back a referendum in order to "spike the nationalists' guns" had been discussed at "the highest levels" of the party.

It is understood that one reason why the strategy has been ditched is because it would be impossible to back a referendum in Scotland while Downing Street was denying the rest of the UK a referendum on the European treaty.
'

typical Labour party arrogance; it's all 'us,us,us. People of Scotland-less important'.
2

Jimmy the Pie,

30/03/2008 00:14:18
Lets put it to the test. Bet the result is nothing like AM2's statistics.
10 out of 10 for Wendy though!!
3

gaffer,

Kamloops, B.C.Canada 30/03/2008 00:20:06
I agree with your comment AM2, I think if we are to think with our heads and not our hearts, we would realise that as an independant nation we couldnt survive, break it down to , would we have have our own Money system , Our own medical system, our own army , navy , etc, and there are many many more parts of being on your own that I cant imagine, but why dont they whao are asking for this , at least show us just what we would have to look after and the cost of this if they want to become a republic Like the republic of Ireland, have all our money system changes to Eoros , even if we could join and we would have to go on a waiting list we couldnt just join automatically. so instead of just saying do you want to have an independant Scotland , Yes /No show us what it will cost in gaining the right to pay our bills.
4

Jimmy the Pie,

30/03/2008 00:24:40
#4
We already have our own medical system, armed forces, national and local government. They wouldn't disappear if we voted to become independent.

10 out of 10 for effort though. ;-)
5

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30/03/2008 00:26:07
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30/03/2008 00:28:05
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7

Richardinho,

30/03/2008 00:30:22
#6 Actually AM2, what I was referring to was the utter unashamed cynical self interest of the Labour party- both in wanting a referendum 'to spike the nationalists guns' (not because it would be good for Scotland) and then rejecting it because it would interfere with their equally cynical policy in denying the UK as a whole a referendum on the EU constitution (even though they promised this in their manifesto!)
8

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30/03/2008 00:35:43
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9

madrab,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 00:42:52
If Gordon Brown, Wendy Alexander and the rest of the unionists are so sure that the majority of scots don't want independence, why don't they propose a referendum on this issue?

Could it be that they are telling us more lies?

If they are correct a simple yes/no vote on independence would find in their favour.

Why wouldn't they want such a referendum to take place?

10

Sanny,

Portugal 30/03/2008 00:58:46
Sir Tom is right when he says that Scotland needs and has the right to a straightforward referendum on independence. However he is wrong in his criticism of AS. As a politician, AS has to deal in the art of the possible. His current actions are pushing unwilling Unionists into a position where if they don’t support a Referendum they will set the stage for AS and his party to gain an overall majority in the next Holyrood elections, then the SNP can set a referendum on their own terms. Sir T needs to remember that this time last year not only was the unionists opposed to the Referendum but there was no talk of any “additional powers”. In agreeing to even talk about additional powers the Unionists are effectively admitting that the electorate are waking up to the need for Scotland to take charge of its own affairs.

Sir T also fails to take account of the electorates general lack of understanding of what is at stake. Independence has not been properly debated in the Unionist controlled Media and I would go further to say that debate has been deliberately stifled. The release of the McCrone Report and the exposure of the GERS as a deliberate piece of miss-information, designed to frighten the Scots into believing they were dependent on Westminster for handouts, has led to many question beliefs that, in the absence of free debate, were held as self evident.

The necessary debate is now taking place on forums similar to this, as the Internet makes an enormous contribution to democracy. This process has only just begun and the Holyrood election last May was probably the first election where communication via the internet played a crucial role. The internet will continue to play an increasingly important role in exploring the potential of an Independent Scotland. I notes that WA has acknowledged as much at the SLP conference and has proposed to recruit Trolls to suppress or destroy the debate. I think she will fail!

After three hundred years of effective suppression
11

brian mcc,

the arctic 30/03/2008 02:11:22
The richest man in Scotland...wants to become a politician. With all that money, what's next is the desire for power...might he have more invested in London than Edinburgh? Or Quebec.
12

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 30/03/2008 02:17:06
1 AM2

Your stats are misleading in that there is no appetite for the status quo. The type of governance wanted by the majority of those polled is much closer to independence than you might be comfortable with.

6 AM2

Now your comments are misleading.

The 'national conversation' no matter YOUR OPINION, was set up so that all Scots could converse about independence as well as other constitutional options. Looking at the detail of the polls you quote, there is definitely an appetite for change of some sort.

It was months later that the Unionist parties got together to propose a Commission for change. But they took it upon themselves to exclude the 33% of people who voted for the SNP last May and look at their own version of change.

No wonder Tom Hunter says the whole damn thing is confusing. CLEARLY IT IS.


13

subrosa,

30/03/2008 02:22:36
Have a wee look at this:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3635734.ece

Explains a bit about Gordon Brown and his attitude towards a referendum on the EU. Too selfish for words.
14

Sanny,

Portugal 30/03/2008 02:23:59
1 AM2
Having from time to time read the rubbish you spout in these columns was wondering if Wendy had invited you to head up her army of trolls that she mentioned at the Aviemore conference.


4 gaffer
Quote/ “I think if we are to think with our heads and not our hearts, we would realise that as an independant nation we couldnt survive, break it down to , would we have have our own Money system , Our own medical system, our own army , navy , etc, and there are many many more parts of being on your own that I cant imagine, but why dont they whao are asking for this , at least show us just what we would have to look after and the cost of this if they want to become a republic Like the republic of Ireland, have all our money system changes to Eoros , even if we could join and we would have to go on a waiting list we couldnt just join automatically. so instead of just saying do you want to have an independant Scotland , Yes /No show us what it will cost in gaining the right to pay our bills.! \Unquote

Are you serious? Scotland is in the top quartile of the wealthiest nations in Europe!
Iceland is a minuscule nation with a population no greater than Glasgow. Its primary resource is fish – Cod to be precise – ye it take its place among the nations of Europe as an equal. For its size it has a powerful banking and financial sector. Had Westminster not given away our fishing grounds to Europe we would share Iceland’s good fortune. In addition we have enormous additional resources Oil (for the next 50 years), renewable electricity generation capacity far beyond our needs, an ample supply of water with plenty to spare (at a price). In addition we have sufficient land to supply all our food needs. All the services you mention we pay for already and more than our fair share. Your comments on monetary systems show a total ignorance of how monetary systems work. No matter which currency a country uses it has to be backed with resources. Gaffer, go on to the Herald Forum a
15

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 30/03/2008 02:31:16
4 gaffer, British Columbia

So we couldn't survive on our own?

What's your argument for this:

"would we have have our own Money system , Our own medical system, our own army , navy , etc, and there are many many more parts of being on your own that I cant imagine"

Is that it? I think you'll need to do a bit better than that.
16

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30/03/2008 02:32:35
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17

Sanny,

Portugal 30/03/2008 02:36:28
6 AM2
Once again you try to muddy the waters by confusing Elections with Referendum’s.
The former is about selecting the political party that will manage the affairs of the Nation for a limited period. The latter is about determining the constitutional position and direction of the Nation into the foreseeable future without limit.

For instance I am not an SNP supporter per se but I will support a referendum for Scottish Independence. Once Independence is achieved I will look to a party that will meet my other (at present secondary) political objectives.

Stop trying to miss-lead readers and instead try to ensure that all of the electorate are fully aware of both sides of the argument and can make a reasoned decision.
18

Rozz Fyffe,

scotland 30/03/2008 02:38:22
Sanny from your portugese villa, if scotland gets idependence there will be no oil money or very little.

END OF STORY
19

Castaway,

30/03/2008 02:38:48
...........impossible to back a referendum (independence) in Scotland while Downing Street was denying the rest of the UK a referendum on the European treaty.
What if the Scottish Government held a consulative referendum on the Lisbon Treaty they would have the Tories support and put pressure on Westmister to hold a UK referendum ?

A Lib Dem spokesman added: "If the SNP believed their own spin, they could call a referendum on independence immediately.
If the opposition believed their own spin why don't they propose a referendum now or a vote of no confidence in the present Scottish Government.

20

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30/03/2008 02:59:32
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21

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30/03/2008 03:01:45
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22

,

30/03/2008 03:03:11
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23

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30/03/2008 03:05:16
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24

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30/03/2008 03:06:27
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25

Willie Macleod,

Wick 30/03/2008 03:16:57
#26 Good morning Taggart interesting posts have you got the membership of the other parties in Scotland over the same period It would be interesting to see.
26

Castaway,

30/03/2008 03:45:34
#23-#26:Taggart - interesting to read 10/10
27

An Beal Bacht,

30/03/2008 04:15:57
Well done Taggart - sliced and diced 'em and fed 'em up raw!
28

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 04:27:27
I would like to comment on the digs towards Tom Hunter by a few on this forum.

Tom Hunter isnt the enemy, as a matter of fact he is an example of what is good about Scotland. As a firm supporter of Full Independance of my Country from the remains of the United Kingdom. I want Tom Hunter and his kind to invest in London Markets and make profits he can then bring back to Scotland. The more he makes the better in my eyes. I want to see more Tom Hunters investing in their own kind, through charities and investment in our nations future generations. Yes he gave 100,000 quid to New Labour, but judging by his reaction to Wendy's corruption, when he stated he would give them nothing else, he was obviously under the impression that they were genuinely interested in the welfare of the Scottish People.

We all now know that Labour politicians are thieves and liars, who's main job is to keep the Scottish People in line for Westminster. Aviemore is at present full of English Puppets, doing exactly what they are told. Look at Andy Kerr with his pathetic attempt to liken Alex Salmond with Thatchers policies, when his party and boss had her across for tea, without arsnic in it, because that is what she would have got from me or any other Scot I know.

Tom Hunter is by his very attitude to life an Independant, Leader of People, who decides what is best for him and those closest to him. Shouldnt that philosophy now carry over to his nation. Scotland has been left by Westminster with so problems, especially in the area of the Peoples Self Esteem. Theres only one side of politics that deserves the blame for that, and that would be the Unionist Politicians who sold out the Scottish Race for a handfull of silver.
29

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast ( Vancouver.) 30/03/2008 04:36:19
Gaffer..Nothing personal. However your attitude is that of a wimp.

Scotland the Brave is it not?

30

Willie Macleod,

Wick 30/03/2008 04:45:00
#32 Dont worry about Gaffer he is an idiot or he really believes what he says either way its the same thing Serious points and debate please.
31

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 30/03/2008 07:03:24
#31 Is that a joke post or are you just another fruitcake who can't even spell independence.
32

Willie Macleod,

Wick 30/03/2008 07:14:44
#34 Morning Mercutio He is not joking I think,you never never know anyway hope this Sunday morning finds you well
33

donald,

glasgow 30/03/2008 07:25:41
Labour can vote for British Rule in their Old Firm and Ingurland shell suits and Basie bunnets.
34

Nikostratos,

30/03/2008 07:30:20
Well Alex best change his mind again(flip flop flip flop) as he has accepted the multi-option ballot if offered by the pro-union msps.

I do find the claim over neverendum dubious as Alex has stated this is a once in generation event....And won't be revisited for another 25 years......And so far no 'Nationalists' have contradicted him ?
35

Nikostratos,

30/03/2008 07:34:18
#2

Those last two paragraphs are most offensive; '
Labour sources claimed last night that the question of whether to back a referendum in order to "spike the nationalists' guns" had been discussed at "the highest levels" of the party.

"the highest levels" of the party.
silly billy don't you know that's journalese for speaking to a labour party member who is up a ladder.
36

kimba,

30/03/2008 07:43:43
After watching Rangers beat Celtic yesterday,with the amount of union flags that were being waved around,there can be no doubt about the result of any referendum,bring it on salmond,your pishing in the wind!
37

kimba,

30/03/2008 07:48:16
26. still a lot higher than the snp can muster,a mere 11,644 at the last count!
38

Geoff H,

30/03/2008 07:50:39
31 - "There's only one side of politics that deserves the blame..the Unionist politicians who sold out for a handful of silver'

Let's be careful of the old accusation that Scotland was only 'bought & sold for English Gold'

In 1703 the English Gov't made it very clear that they were determined to achieve control of Scotland and would, if necessary, invade. On 17 July 1703, Godolphin, the leading member of the English Gov't sent the following letter to Seafield, the Scottish Chancellor:

'England is now at war with France, if Scotland were in peace, and consequently at liberty to trade with France, would not that immediately necessitate a war betwixt England and Scotland also, as has been often the case before the two nations were under the same sovereign? And though perhaps some turbulent spirits in Scotrland may be desiring to have it so again, if they please to consult history they will not find the advantages of these breaches has often been on the side of Scotland; and if they will give themselves leave to consider how much England has increased in wealth and power since those times, perhaps the present conjuncture will not appear more favourable to them, but on the contrary rather furnish arguments for enforcing the necessity of a speedy union between the two nations; which is a notion that I am sorry to find has little prevalency in the present parliament of Scotland. And I hope your lordship will not be offended with me if I take the freedom to be of the opinion they may possibly be sorry for it too, when the opportunity is out of their reach'

So not only was there bribery, guarantees to preserve the Scottish legal system & existing rights of lords, lairds and burghs, safeguards to the existing constitution of the Church of Scotland but threats of all out war if Scotland were to resist.

Daniel Defoe, the English agent & propagandist said the only alternative to union 'was the bloodiest war in history between the two countries'.

So although it
39

Geoff H,

30/03/2008 07:56:16
41 cont'd

So although it is unusual for any parliament to vote for its own abolition it is even more astonishing in Scotland where it had defended its independence against heavy odds for over 300 years; but is it any wonder?

Funny how we had Unionists 300 years ago talking over wealth and power...some things never change...
40

Dick Lynas,

Glasgow 30/03/2008 08:03:04
I assume that No 39 kimba is being tongue-in-cheek.
The number of union flags at Ibrox had nothing to do with the union or nationhood.
It is called sectarianism - once amusingly referred to as Scotland's secret shame
41

eric,

Lothian 30/03/2008 08:13:26
Most folk in UK want us out (England & Wales),SNP in a win win situation,The damage has been done Theres no way back because its irrelivent what we want in Scotland anymore The English will decide that.
42

Yane,

30/03/2008 08:19:51
Geez, yer all being very sensible & nobody's commented on that photie.
Is he sposed tae look like he's gonna bite the head off whippets?
43

John S,

30/03/2008 08:37:51
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long they didn't kick us out years ago ?
Why does England desperately cling on to having Scotland in the UK ?
Why would anyone in England want Scotland to remain in the UK ?
Why now when independence is back on the agenda is England not clamouring for the same?



44

kimba,

30/03/2008 08:39:32
43.you can call it what you want,the point is these people weren't flying the union flag for salmonds sake,oh and chris hoy in the cycling running round the track with a huge union flag draped over his shoulders;I really do hope you get your independence vote,that seems to be the only way to prove to the nats that the majority of scots still want to be part of the union.
45

9/11 was an inside job,

Corrupt EU 30/03/2008 08:40:02
Stupid man. Let's have a vote to get Scotland out of the EU. Stop blaming England for all our shortcomings.
46

kimba,

30/03/2008 08:42:42
46,because unlike you,most people in scotland and england understand the phrase "united we stand,divided we fall"!
47

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 30/03/2008 09:14:01
"My name is Wendy Alexander & I'm a hungry caterpillar".

My God.

How could ANYONE vote for the Labour party?
48

Scudder,

Glasgow 30/03/2008 09:15:38
10/10 for Sir Tom !,.,. Wouldn't Politics be so much more acceptable if Politicians were clear thinking, intelligent and most of all ,, bloody honest ?
But ne'er fear ,,with or without them we WILL have our Independence & our FREEDOM ! Hail Caledonia
49

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 09:17:08
Why does this newspaper organisation give a platform to the wealthy and priveliged for them to air their personal views on Scotland's constitutional position within the UK?

Any good publicity that came out of the Labour Conference at Aviemore will not be forgotten as Mr. Hunter's views grab the headlines?

SoS cannot make up its schizophrenic mind whether it is for or agin Independence?

The only winners are the SNP!
50

kimba,

30/03/2008 09:23:44
51.sorry chum,not in the forseeable future you won't!
51

The west awake,

Argyll 30/03/2008 09:34:34
Nikostratos - "I do find the claim over neverendum dubious as Alex has stated this is a once in generation event....And won't be revisited for another 25 years......And so far no 'Nationalists' have contradicted him ?"

I don't know if I count as I am only a Nat supporter, not a member , but I for one would contradict him - if I thought he was issuing instructions, (which I don't).

My reasoning is simple - one man, even the great Salmond, cannot determine what will happen over the next 25 years - for one thing he will be about 80 by then!
There will be more referenda - if there is enough demand for one, simple as that, it is called democracy. If the country clearly doesn't want one (unlike at the moment), no-one would be able to force us to have one, and vice-versa. Whether that happens in 25 years, 25 months or 25 minutes is irrelevant and unknowable.
It is absurd to say that I can vote on Independence, but my son would have to wait until 2033 to do so! How can anyone deny rights to a whole generation? - it simply isn't in anyone's power to do so - thank God.

Salmond was predicting when he made that remark, not mandating.

52

oder,

Scotland 30/03/2008 09:44:42
46 John S,30/03/2008 08:37:51


the history of nations being allowed independence by the Westminster government depends entirely on how much it costs,safe to say at present Scotland costs England nothing! whether its water, oil, or a place to park Trident, the Falklands war was sparked by the Westminster's lack of interest in the islands, now they have oil and the Westminster Government pays to keep a credible force there to protect the rights of the islanders, good job they got oil eh! classic example of how the British Government works!
53

kimba,

30/03/2008 09:48:03
54. Think you'll find that it is not the unionist who are "bricking it",salmond seems to be changing the goal posts on a weekly basis!
54

kimba,

30/03/2008 09:51:52
56,LOL,you really are a comedian,"costs England nothing"how about the extra 1500 pound for every man woman and child in scotland per year!
55

Gill,

W/L 30/03/2008 09:55:34
Kimba 39-58...

Your ignorance really knows no bounds, does it? THANKFULLY, come the referendum you won't be getting a vote. And (not for the first time)....it's 'YOU'RE pishing in the wind!' Away and educate yourself and leave the politics to the grown ups.
56

brownlie,

glasgow 30/03/2008 09:59:48
38 Kimba

That is the most moronic posting I have seen on this site. Talk about unionist desperation. Do you not realise that even if a few thousand, out of a total of around 50 thousand, were waving the union jack that that would ammount to only 4% of the spectators - which puts your absurb claim into perspective.
57

Slippylizard,

Raining Rock 30/03/2008 10:01:32
As someone who spends considerable time travelling south of the border I would just like to clear up some nonsense like #44 and #46.

Most people I speak to in England think it is a matter for Scotland to decide whether they stay or go within the Union. The majority of the public would back an independent Scotland if that is what she wanted. The English are not "clinging onto us" and neither do they "insist" we stay. They actually believe it is up to us and they do not want to be part of that decision. This is just inflammatory claptrap that is being spouted that matches the image of the "Braveheart Brigade". They are not wise enough to recognise "they" are the ones that terrify the Unionists. When is this going to hit home?

Doubt the comment about the "Braveheart Brigade"? Check #51 "But ne'er fear ,,with or without them we WILL have our Independence & our FREEDOM ! Hail Caledonia". I mean that sounds like it is from a past age, not 2008. Did he not miss some line like "they can take our women but....."?

Many in England would also like to see some form of devolution to areas, such as the South West and the North as examples.
58

oder,

Scotland 30/03/2008 10:04:59
58 kimba,

propaganda bud! keep on telling lies long enough people like you start to believe it! makes the English feel good about themselves, these ungrateful Scottish subsidy junkies that cant get by with out the English giving them a handout and on the other they have the temerity
to believe they might be able to do it themselves, your the comedian!
59

kimba,

30/03/2008 10:11:13
59/60. And there speaks two very uninformed,bilious,and stupid nats. For your information-# England £7,121
# Scotland £8,623
# Wales £8,139 per person. The population of England is 80% of the population of the UK. Instant abolition of the Barnett Formula, based on the above figures would result on an average UK expenditure of approximately £7362. This would be a large decrease for each person in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but an increase of less than 4% per person for England
60

kimba,

30/03/2008 10:18:42
Oh,and Brownlie,didnae post at 38!
61

Forward not Back,

Nowhere near You 30/03/2008 10:21:14
I said at the time of the election results that the Tories should have called the SNP's bluff and supported the independence referendum but with the question being "Do you want Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom?" because the Unionist parties had the majority of the Parliament. If Michael Forsyth had still led the Tories in Scotland, the referendum could be done and dusted and the SNP would have had to get on with the business of government (which they haven't done too badly with so far).
62

Transparent?,

Scotland 30/03/2008 10:25:47
What we need first is a voting system that the voters can trust.

The complex preference system, which Salmond is proposing, requires 'extracting' all three preferences before processing into results and therefore provides an opportunity for the SNP to cheat their way to independence. It's a desperate act of a dictator.

Also ask Tom Hunter if he got his wealth under the United Kingdom or an Independent Scotland.
63

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 30/03/2008 10:33:42
Transparent? - yip I think we can see through your nonsense
64

danielrober,

30/03/2008 10:37:52
Without saying anything negative about Sir Hunter, i would suggest that he is underestimating our competition. Such a brutal separation would open up cracks in our economy. Unless Sir Hunter can match the 50 billion EURO, that even a small county like Portugal can raise, we would be exposed to massive buyouts.

That is why, if we separate we need to do it over a decade, at least. People and businesses will have time to adjust, move pensions and even buy houses.

A quick Boody and Doye appoach to independence, without the help of Cowley would be a disaster. (Hardley pofessional).
65

oder,

Dundee 30/03/2008 10:41:41
kimba,30/03/2008 10:11:13
firstly I am not a not nationalist! secondly I am not a unionist!
you should thank the Nats for trying to save the English taxpayer money! or are you one of the susidy junkies that needs the handout!
66

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30/03/2008 10:43:16
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67

kimba,

30/03/2008 10:47:41
69.So I can take it you are a "sit on the fence" kind of person,funny how your rhetoric is almost identical to the nats.
68

Mikey,

30/03/2008 10:58:47
kimba, when you're proved wrong, as you will be, what are you going to do?
69

happyhibbie,

The Inch, Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:00:57
A Westminster government with guts would get rid of this sham of a parliament whose best-known apology for politicians are Slippery Salmond and Weirdo Wendy who will, sooner or later, be forced to resign.

Any referendum should be UK wide as all British citizens will be affected by the outcome.
70

M.T.,

30/03/2008 11:01:06
"SCOTS should be allowed an immediate independence referendum, the nation's richest man declares in an exclusive article with Scotland on Sunday today."

No! Not immediate!

Scottish people deserve discussion and truth in order that they can assess for themselves the correct way forward.
71

Enigma,

30/03/2008 11:04:24
46

`Why does England desperately cling on to having Scotland in the UK?`

We don`t mate, the attitude of most is to shrug their shoulders and say,if you want out then go for it and good luck to you. At times it`s almost as if you want us to kick up a fuss and put obstacls in your way. Just stop blaming the English for everything, else who will you have to blame after English independence?
72

kimba,

30/03/2008 11:05:03
72,Mikey. I should think the question should be,what are the nats going to do? Guess your whole lives will be in turmoil.
73

Garry Otton,

Scottish Media Monitor 30/03/2008 11:05:22
Reasons NOT to vote SNP? Read the latest article on Media Monitor website on history of Section 28. Fine. Vote SNP if you want a theocracy. The SNP want to fund MORE 'faith' schools for Muslims and sectarian schools for Catholics.
74

morris,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:07:26
Of course Scotland should be allowed a referendum on independence,if for no other reason so that those who claim to know what support level exists(for their own purposes) can finally say it with confidence(or shut up )as is appropriate.
Any other point of view is undemocratic and only serves to prove just how unfit these people are and we should ignore them.
The findings will of course determine when a subsequent referendum should be held,since clear;y whilst there can NEVER be a so called SETTLED WILL OF THE PEOPLE in a democracy,only a WILL OF THE PEOPLE which constantly requires monitoring and adjustment.Otherwise you return to the current ignorance of claiming to know what level of support exists when its obvious that you seek to impose your view irrespective of whether a majority or minority opinion.
That is never acceptable in any democracy.
We are governed by Westminster on the presumption that the majority favour this.
It could be correct,and it could be wrong.
It could be a today and b tomorrow .

Lets find out the facts,then we can stand up and say the level is ...........................and NOT BEFORE!
Anyone who says they already know is a combination of liar and idiot and possibly both.It has NEVER been measured as i direct question,not even in the two referenda which were held and excluded independence as an option.
WE ARE NOT STUPID SO STOP THIS ARROGANCE OF TREATING US LIKE WE ARE.
75

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:09:31
78 happy english,Canterbury

When you live in England you see an English perspective on the world which is no more valued than any other.What you display is an arrogance beyond belief that you could know more about a country than the people who live there!
76

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

30/03/2008 11:16:32
64 kimba,30/03/2008 10:18:42

Naw it wis #39 an yer still pishing in the wind

63 kimba,30/03/2008 10:11:13

If the 'Barnett formula' is replaced, and this is looking increasing unlikely, as it favours London, more than any other part of the UK, it will have to be replaced by a system that takes account of 'input' to the treasury, as Scotland's 'input' to the treasury, exceeds it's funding level, including it's 'fair share' for Central government attributable expenditure, then even more of Scotland's money would come home.

Anywho, why has the SOS not covered the story that Gordo is going to 'stealhtax' another £40m a year from Scotland's 'renewable energy' sources not been covered by this fair, honest and principled periodical?
77

morris,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:17:29
75

We do not blame the English people for anything.
We blame ourselves since we have never been denied the vote. The Labour Party create this impression for their own purposes of racist accusation against us.People in Scotland have sufficient brains to work out that the SNP would press the self destruct button should they ever embrace racism.WE DO NOT

To my certain knowledge the SNP contains many English members and ethnic minorities and increasingly so at Labours expense. That is the reality and they support Scottish independence,and are notably the intelligentsia.That speaks volumes !
78

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:28:17
"It is understood that one reason why the strategy has been ditched is because it would be impossible to back a referendum in Scotland while Downing Street was denying the rest of the UK a referendum on the European treaty."

Why? It's a totally seperate question. The Brits don't want a referendum because they know when it comes down to the positive case for normal powers for Scotland versus the usual scaremongering against it, they'll lose.
79

haggis 10,

The Capital city of Scotland 30/03/2008 11:30:07
America Canada Nigeria Ghana South Africa Tonga Pitcairn Island Newfoundland Ceylon Burma "Berwick" Libya Egypt Hawaii Guyana South West Africa Sudan India Ireland The West indies Falkland Islands New Zealand Noforlk Island Cyprus Malaya Singapore Botswana are all Screamin at the hallowed Gates of the "British (MOTHER" of PARLIAMENTS) ENGLISH THAT IS" To Reinstate Their Dependency Status to ensure their countries natural resources are finally wiped out !
80

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 30/03/2008 11:30:19
#87 happy english

A lot of people here have a deep-seated psycological need to feel part of an 'oppressed minority', and you have been chosen to represent the 'oppressors'.
81

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 30/03/2008 11:31:41
There was an interview with Alex Salmond by Andrew Marr in his breakfast show this morning. After putting a weak defence of STV, he was unable to answer Marr's direct question- how he would get the referendum agreed by Holyrood holding a minority status. He had no answer to that but kept on saying that people will get convinced so on.. But the fact of the matter is the Holyrood arithmetic is against him and that will not change until the next election whatever the unpopularity of other parties outside the Holyrood now.
The chances of agreeing for referendum by Holyrood is now as much as Ian Paisley becoming the prime minister of Republic of ireland.
How Sir Hunter is going to solve this?

There is a strong theory (put forward by Scots in business) which explains why there is no clamour for independence which polls only 25%. Scotland has comparatively large public sector and needs a large tax base to service it if Scotland becomes independent. Scots in Scotland are left-leaning and are not comfortable in losing England as a funding source. If Scotalnd separates, the oil revenue from then on will be be divided between the two countries ( international law and there are precedences).

Finally, Today Alex salmond said he needs immigrants from where? The East Europeans tend to settle in London and England , and he can get them only from Asia, which means more mosques, faith schools, Sharia law etc.. etc..

I bet Sir hunter did not think all of these!
82

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:34:30
KImba and certain others.

The Barnett formula is used to work out the allocation of funds to regions of the UK.
An indepedent Scotland would not be in the UK so the Barnett formula has SFA to do with anything .
What we should compare is how much Scotland would have after independence with what she is allocated now,not compare us to other regions of what will be a seperate country from Scotland.
Scotland would retain all taxes currently given to London plus North Sea Oil Revenues (and there are international rules which govern this).Negotiation will take place certianly but Scotlands Holyrood parliament and Westminster become equal in the international communities eyes.
When you make this comparison it favours Scotland by a country mile.The value of the oil revenues is much more significant in Scotlands much smaller economy.
The mutiplier I am advised by other contributors is of the order of 12:1
That secures Scotlands position and we would have to be incompetent beyond belief to screw that up.
We are confident that we understand economics well enough to do what we have done all over the planet,and it was Adam Smith who fathered the economic discipline and taught the world how to govern under a capitalist system in his "Wealth of Nations".

The arguments that we are too small or too anything are born of ignorance and employed by people who do not know what they are talking about.Economics applies to all nations big small black white east west and any other you mention.The difference is their wealth and how well their governments understand and perform with what resources they have.We are almost a copy of Norway as much as anyone can be,and if we copy that model we should not go far wrong.They are laughing all the way to the bank.Norwegian independence has probably benefited Sweden also!
83

haggis 10,

30/03/2008 11:41:15
Sorry if I missed out any DEPENDENCIES Ps Free Gold nibbed pens and finest Vellum are available from the Socialist Security Dept at no cost !!!!For the above Ceromonial Handover .
84

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30/03/2008 11:42:45
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85

John S,

30/03/2008 11:42:52
#61 What you wrote isn't a reason why ? it is upto the Westminster (English) majority Government to make that decision and so far they have put obstacles in the way ie the 1979 referendum which was stupid with its 40% undemocratic rule, then they hid the McCrone report and why just devolution in 1997 ?
If it is upto the Scottish people then why is the Westminster Government interfering with democracy within Scotland when on the April 3, 2007 in Glasgow Mr Blair and Mr Brown warned that the SNP's promises, even without independence, will cost Scottish families £5,000 a year.
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long they didn't kick us out years ago ?
Why now when independence is back on the agenda is England not clamouring for the same?
I was proud to serve in the British Army but I also believe in a independent Scotland.
86

morris,

edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:48:27
91

YOu are correct Scotland has a minority government and cannot probably secure an agreement to hold a referendum. What we can secure is the publicity of the other parties DENYING US THE RIGHT TO HOLD ONE.

Perception is a mightier weapon than truth in the short term anyway.
That is worth far more to the SNP who will continue to rise in popularity as direct result. Tam Dalyell was correct when he said that a sliippery slope exists.It slippery because Westminster will try every dirty trick in the book to halt the SNP progress,(which is the sensible way to go),since every day is another million or so in Westminsters bank account.Hopefully they will get all of it before Scotlands idiots waken up is Westminsters persective on this.
Both Brian Wilson (former Labour MP) and John Biffen (formely very senior Tory) are on record as acknowledging publicly that Scotland would fare better as an indpependent nation.
Biffen was even honest enough to admit that had he been a Scot he would not have been in the Tory party at all ! Whether he would have joined the SNP or not is hypothetical of course,but there is no doubt thats what he meant.

The Unionists will oppose any referendum because they dare not risk it!
The truth is heavily in favour of independence and we know it!
87

Craig Watson,

Normally Falkirk, currently Brazil 30/03/2008 11:49:51
Sense at last from someone. Yes, lets do it now and get it over with, this continual bickering and posturing does nothing for Scotland's image nor it's people. IF we are going to go it alone (and even as a proud Scot I hope not)lets do it. Too much talk not enough action.
As for using the STV method STOP, it's a losers way of winning. A simple "Independence YES/NO" is all that is required.
If the answer is YES, where is the money going to come from to sustain Scotland, not the oil as it is a shared commodity. And if the answer is NO well the SNP should accept the peoples wish and move on.
88

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30/03/2008 11:51:23
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89

Brian M,

Edinburgh 30/03/2008 11:52:50
#96

Reads like something Gordon (I hope the English don't notice I am Scottish) Brown-nose would come out with