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'This is the best Scotland team I've played in. Now we need to prove it by qualifying for something'


Talented midfielder Fletcher espouses virtue of always looking forward as Burley's squad determine to flourish

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Published Date: 01 June 2008
THERE'S no such thing as a comfort zone where the footballing elite are concerned.
Minutes after winning the Champions League title the Manchester United management and players were in their dressing room in the Luzhniki Stadium, in Moscow. "We were saying, 'yeah, we've won it, enjoy it, but…' No-one has ever defended the Champions
League and we're looking to do that," says Darren Fletcher, who may have been an unused sub that night, but shares the philosophy. "That's the way we have to think. The general consensus already is to look ahead to next season – you can look back when you've finished your career. It has to be like that at that level. If you rest on your laurels at Manchester United, you'll stand still."

Stagnating is something Scotland could have been accused of until a few years ago. Worse than a comfort zone, it was an uncomfortable one. Now, when Fletcher joins up with the rest of the national squad, he is encouraged to see the same kind of desire to progress and improve that forms the fabric of the success at Old Trafford. He is hoping it can help the national side reap similar memories worth treasuring.

So close to qualifying for the European Championships, which start this week without Scotland, the determination to make it to the World Cup in 2010 is now even more evident. And after debuting in a side which was threadbare and lacked direction or steel under Berti Vogts, the 24-year-old says the squad has now evolved to such an extent, in terms of both tactics and personnel, that current boss George Burley now has an embarrassment of riches by comparison. "This is my fourth manager and it is my fourth campaign coming up and I think we are probably now as good as we have been to kick on. We keep progressing. We got ourselves in a better pot for the seedings. I'm not sure if you can call it an easy group but it's not Italy, France and Ukraine, is it? But people will now expect a bit more from us and that's the next step for us, dealing with the expectation."

A player who has long-since been burdened by a nation's high hopes due to his progress through the ranks with one of Europe's elite club sides and the glowing testimonies from his club gaffer, Sir Alex Ferguson, the beauty is that there are now others in the Scotland side able to alleviate some of the strain. Provided they can all stay fit at the same time. "We've not achieved anything yet but we're making progress. It's getting harder because it's easier to be resilient and hard to beat and organised, the difficult part is taking it on and actually having possession and dominating teams.

"We'll have games at Hampden against the likes of Macedonia where we're now expected to win but they're not easy games. That's the next challenge."

No resting on laurels or basking in memories of French stars foiled. The focus is already on the World Cup qualifying campaign. That was the reason they played the Czech Republic in baking early evening temperatures in Prague on Friday night. For a so-called meaningless end-of-season friendly, it was a match which served a purpose. Fletcher claimed the first half conditions were the hottest he had ever played in, but it was, quite literally, a warm up for the opening World Cup qualifier, away to Macedonia in September, when afternoon temperatures could soar well above Friday's 28 degrees. It was also a chance to tinker with the system and give debuts to others following the lengthy number of call-offs. "You have to try some new things and I'm sure it might be different again against Northern Ireland. But we had a good team tonight and people did themselves a lot of good," added Fletcher.

"James Morrison for example, I thought did really well in the first half especially. He went past people, he was positive, won corners. Then Davie (Clarkson] came on and scored a great goal, while Ross (McCormack] has shown unbelievable technique and finishing in training as well. The manager is going to have a tough job when everyone is fit – picking who starts – but that's good for Scotland. Look at the competition for places in the midfield, for example. We're going places and it compares favourably to when I first came in."

Burley has not yet had the advantage of getting the very best players together at once, due to injury call-offs, but while personnel and systems could yet vary, he does seem to have a football philosophy he wants his players to adhere to. "I played against his Ipswich team for Everton," says Gary Naysmith, "and I remember the philosophy was that if the opposition score two, we'll score three. Obviously you have to be a bit tighter at international level but it's still the same because he loves us to go forward and loves us to score goals. The gaffer instils in us to keep the ball. He loves it on the deck. Training starts with three-touch, then two-touch then he wants it one-touch. He wants you to be comfortable on the ball, he wants you to make the forward pass when the time is right but if it's not then keep the ball until it is right. I think we can play like that and do well if we can combine it with our real strengths – the fighting spirit and stamina."

The positive approach and intention to see the side evolve and build on the foundation set down by his predecessors is evident and it has impressed the likes of Fletcher, who has grown used to the mentality during his own Manchester United education. "He's speaking about taking us to that next level. He spoke about it being good to be hard to beat, but about there being more."

The midfielder knows there was a time when it seemed the national team was going backwards but now, while it may still be small steps, at least they are taking the country in the right direction. All the way to South Africa, he hopes.





The full article contains 1061 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 31 May 2008 8:01 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scotland's football team
 
1

bring them on,

01/06/2008 00:10:31
Fletcher is improving, and should be a key player in the Scotland team for some time to come
2

Fanling,

Switzerland 01/06/2008 00:50:56
#1
Agree. The spirit of that side is something that needs to be fostered and built upon. Fletcher has shown fortitude since the dark days of Berti's era. His and his team-mates' enthusiasm (and ability) should be an incentive to the call-off specialists to look into a mirror or two. We can be quietly confident.
3

bring them on,

01/06/2008 01:04:20
#2

And he usually turns up for games.

However, Sir Alex is the old master of not letting his players turn up for their country, so you never know.


Where would you play Fletcher?

I would like to see him pushing a bit further forward.
4

Fanling,

Switzerland 01/06/2008 01:34:10
#3
Aye, he certainly does turn up. He's keen and eager and a damn good example to the usual truants. We need more like him and I think there's more than a few in the current set-up. Like you, I'd be happier to see DF push forward more, as he does for Man U when selected. That's for George Burley to figure, but he must be aware of this in a fully operational side.
5

bring them on,

01/06/2008 01:52:15
#4

We'll see what Burley has in mind.

Fletcher is future captain material.
6

Maisie from Morningside,

01/06/2008 01:53:22
Why is this rubbish in the "International" section instead of the Sports/Football section where it can be safely and deservedly ignored?
7

bring them on,

01/06/2008 02:06:21
#6

Seek, and you will find
8

IC,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 02:23:30
#3 Gotta disagree with you a little there. The record of Man Utd players calling off from International duty isn't in the same league as Old Firm players. While Sir Alex may moan a bit about players coming back from International duty with injuries, it's actually not that often his players withdraw and then play for their club 3 days later, unlike many of our squad who play for the Glasgow 'giants'.

I also think that Fletcher is a box to box type of midfielder, and to me isn't really the classic number 10 play maker type, apologies if that isn't what you meant. I'm not criticizing him as a player, as I personally think he has the quality to justify playing for a top level club like Man Utd, just that I think he's already playing his best position for Scotland, i.e. as a worker in midfield who can contribute both going forward and defending.

Maybe it's just traditional Scottish optimism, but I do feel we're getting there now. With close to a full squad available, I think we've got a fair bit of quality now, both in terms of players and the management. As the article says, the World Cup qualifiers are now the time to prove we have that quality through results. Darren Fletcher is one of several key players who now have that opportunity of delivering a bit of glory, along with IMHO Gordon, McManus, Brown and McFadden (to name 4 more) all of whom have already shown that on their day they have what it takes at that level. Now they need to prove it consistently and take us to South Africa.

Last time out we got both World Cup finalists and a quarter finalist and still nearly qualified. This time the draw has been a bit less disastrous, and we have a chance. It's now up to the manager and players to turn potential and some good performances into an end result.
9

Fanling,

Switzerland 01/06/2008 02:27:29
#6 Maisie from Morningside
'Why is this rubbish in the "International" section instead of the Sports/Football section where it can be safely and deservedly ignored?'

Whether it's in one or the other section, I beg to differ. For a change, it isn't the "rubbish" you call it. It seems to me a fair appraisal based on the opinions of a key member of our present football squad.

You are of course free to to "safely and deservedly" ignore it as you wish. I thought the article had some merit.


10

bring them on,

01/06/2008 03:13:07
#8

Would like to see some stats on that, but I'll take your word for it.

Fergie is the Grand Master of call offs, as far as I am concerned.
11

bring them on,

01/06/2008 03:37:40
The thread is a bit tame today.

Perhaps not the best player ever, but when Joe Jordan was playing for Scotland there was never a dull moment.

Need a player like that in the current squad.
12

Fanling,

Switzerland 01/06/2008 04:05:00
#10 bring them on
"Fergie is the Grand Master of call offs, as far as I am concerned."

Yup ... Barry, not Alex!
13

bring them on,

01/06/2008 04:20:42
#12

So you are awake, in between eating your cheese?
14

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 01/06/2008 05:55:13
Fletcher is one of the reasons we didn't qualify for Euro 2008. A very limited player.
15

bring them on,

01/06/2008 05:58:24
#14
Wrong there. Dailly was suspended for some key games.

That's your real reason
16

Media 1,

south africa 01/06/2008 07:42:21
Alex Ferguson is undoubtedly one of the greatest football managers in world football. Therefore, when he plays Darren Fletcher in his football side, that means that Darren Fletcher is an unbelievably talented individual. I listen to others speak about Fletcher, but ultimately I listen to what Alex Ferguson says and does concerning Fletcher, and he says and does good by him.
Scotland will be hard pressed to qualify for South Africa 2010. Holland are a tremendous side and beating them twice will be beyond tough, but it needs to be done to qualify. We beat France twice, we can beat Holland twice, time will tell. Personally I think the world cup is too small. 32 teams is not enough, in this day and age the tournament should be catering for 42 teams. Its every four years, so it should be within FIFA's limits to do so.
Blatter needs to go anyway. We are organising a website that is aimed at obtaining enough petitions to get rid of him.
17

Bosco Bhoy,

---Donegal---- 01/06/2008 08:03:49
Media 1

You really are having a wonderful week with your wee gems.

We've had from youin the last few days- that Liverool are about to replace Man Utd at the top of the EPL pyramid and return to the domination they had in the 70's/80's then you declared the old offside rule good and today its you declare that Fletcher is an "unbelievably talented individual" ignoring that Fergie rarely has him in his starting 11.

BTW
"Alex Ferguson is undoubtedly one of the greatest football managers in world football"

If he was surely this he would have had more than 2 flucky CL titles in 22 years at the worlds richest. club?

Great domestically but found out at the next level too many times too mention.
18

Bosco Bhoy,

---Donegal---- 01/06/2008 08:03:53
Media 1

You really are having a wonderful week with your wee gems.

We've had from youin the last few days- that Liverool are about to replace Man Utd at the top of the EPL pyramid and return to the domination they had in the 70's/80's then you declared the old offside rule good and today its you declare that Fletcher is an "unbelievably talented individual" ignoring that Fergie rarely has him in his starting 11.

BTW
"Alex Ferguson is undoubtedly one of the greatest football managers in world football"

If he was surely this he would have had more than 2 flucky CL titles in 22 years at the worlds richest. club?

Great domestically but found out at the next level too many times too mention.
19

Bosco Bhoy,

---Donegal---- 01/06/2008 08:03:54
Media 1

You really are having a wonderful week with your wee gems.

We've had from youin the last few days- that Liverool are about to replace Man Utd at the top of the EPL pyramid and return to the domination they had in the 70's/80's then you declared the old offside rule good and today its you declare that Fletcher is an "unbelievably talented individual" ignoring that Fergie rarely has him in his starting 11.

BTW
"Alex Ferguson is undoubtedly one of the greatest football managers in world football"

If he was surely this he would have had more than 2 flucky CL titles in 22 years at the worlds richest. club?

Great domestically but found out at the next level too many times too mention.
20

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 08:07:15
oops
21

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 08:09:30
.............IMHO you flucked two jammy results against the French so i wouldnt construe too much from that in the context of playing the Dutch.
22

,

01/06/2008 08:34:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

Dragonlord,

01/06/2008 08:54:18
The team played well without the ussual OF no shows.However Hartley ,Maloney and Dailly should never play again for Scotland. All three were posted " missing" for most of the game, and Berra should have played from the start. As it was a freindly, the young team should have been given more of a role.
24

,

01/06/2008 08:55:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

Teary Ennui,

01/06/2008 09:38:18
Were there no Celtic friendlies for the Parkhead brigade to play in, as there were during Scotland's Kirin Cup games?
26

paulmac,

surrey 01/06/2008 10:10:48
#25

What....as opposed to....the Rags just not giving a sh*t!
27

walter,

01/06/2008 10:24:10
Burley has not yet had the advantage of getting the very best players together at once,
While he is playing friendlies he won't, we all know certain players do not do friendlies.
28

,

01/06/2008 10:26:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

nineinro,

01/06/2008 10:47:03
19
So Sir Alex Ferguson is not in your humble opinion one of the worlds top managers ! Just shows how blinkered you are ... is it maybe because he once played for the hate of your life ?
30

nineinro,

01/06/2008 10:50:07
28
Just a pity his crossing technique is hit and hope rather than the natural ability tae put the ball on a sixpence ! If only he had that then he would be a great player !
31

nineinro,

01/06/2008 10:53:08
I feel that Fletcher is a good player at the minute and only time will tell if he will continue his progress and really become a great player ... maybe next season will be his stride forward as he certainly seems tae have the right attitude !
32

,

01/06/2008 11:16:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

frhugh,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 11:16:27
Great to know that we are all behind our National team!
34

Black Five,

edinburgh 01/06/2008 11:16:30
If this is the best team he`s played in it shows you how bad we are.Let`s stop kidding ourselves.We overachieved in the Euro Qualifiers.The last two games when it mattered resulted in nil points.This exhibition the other night was poor.O k it was not a full squad but neverless the play at times was woefull.Burley has a real job on his hands to get them to the world Cup.It`s a must we get there as the gap between last playing and going is now a long time.It could well be over again by the end of the year which would make an eighteen year gap if we qualify for 2014.Burley will have to get cracking and this bunch from Glasgow will have to decide if they want to play for their perocial little patch or go to the biggest stage ,namely the 2010 World Cup.
35

nineinro,

01/06/2008 11:17:30
24
Another Celtic cyber hooligan with a single agenda and aversion tae the facts ... Barry has been playing through injury for half the season ! Any one with half a clue about football knows this ! Go lie down bhoy as there is no place for you in the debating world !
36

nineinro,

01/06/2008 11:27:50
32
More drivel fae the Celtic cyber hooligans ! You are an embarrassment tae decent Celtic posters and succeed only in shaming yourself and your club on a daily basis ... time for you tae jog on !
37

,

01/06/2008 11:51:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Billy Shears,

01/06/2008 12:09:34
#37 (_!_)
39

nineinro,

01/06/2008 12:11:41
38
Nice picture of Brother Wally !
40

Billy Shears,

01/06/2008 12:14:59
You like it. Not sure whether Patrick is a big (__!__) or just a sore (_x_)
41

nineinro,

01/06/2008 12:17:48
40
If you know the History ... then he is more likely tae be the latter !
42

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 13:11:21
ninero

As it happens i have been complimented many times on this forum from RFC fans for being broad minded and a true footie fan. For you to place my view of Alex Ferguson in the context that its shaped by the fact by he once played for a team i supposedly hate ignores so many fecking obvious points such as:

1 said plenty times Bazza and Cuellar class players

2 said Gazza best foreign player to play in SPL

3 respect Fergie for his views on the 'sectarian' policy of RFC in the past

The fact that you claim i motivated by sinister feelings then go on a slag Mcgeady is just priceless.

My point re Ferguson is that he is part of the EPL hype machine wether it be the brilliance of Ronaldo or the leadership qualities of say a Terry we are contiously bombarded with the idea that this league is the number 1 and its participants are undoubtly the best.

Bullshi* and my point is if Fergie was truly a genuius should he have not demonstrated this more often at the CL level with the finances he has at his disposal.

Clough, Shankly and Stein are genuises but not Sir.
Alex.

Once again ninero you try and darg this thread down the way with your drivel of cyber hooligan FFS give us all a break or you will only have punters here on prattling on about Manchester city centre being wrecked by real hooligans wearing your teams colours.
43

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 13:15:06
Can i ask genuine Scottish football fans a question?

Reading some of the above posts i detect many people are placing huge faith in young Fletcher but can that be justified bearing in mind his actual play time for Man utd is very very modest.

Should this fella not move to a Spurs, Villa or something and become a pivotal midfield enforcer type.
44

nineinro,

01/06/2008 13:23:24
42
You don`t have tae try and justify yourself tae me with examples of Sir Alex`s stance against sectarianism (and that includes your club)! You will however find yourself in the minority in not thinking that Ferguson is a world class manager and linking that view tae the fact that you are anti-Rangers it is by all accounts a reasonable assumption tae make ! Sorry if I hurt your feelings or offended you again. I will continue tae berate the Cyber hooligans that have a sole agenda against any particular club ! You being the Mary Whitehouse of the site and leader of the offended pc brigade (sorry that`s `tdd) should be doing the same! I didn`t slag off McGeady did I ... all I meant was that if he had the natural ability tae put the ball on a sixpence rather than crossing the ball blindly then his pace and quick feet would make him a great player but hey ! if you are offended by that then maybe debating on a forum is not for you !
45

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 13:28:50
44 ninero

Well i dont think he is a world clas manager and you do and i agree so do many more but for you to suggest my opinion is motivated by the fact he once played for RFC is pathetic and an untruth but hey you do that quite regularly.

Good thing is i have the respect of the decent Rangers fans who come on here who indulge in footie chat and dont make unfounded allegations they CANT back up but thats your true level isnt it?
46

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 13:30:41
Being World Class surely means more than dominating yer own league and requires an individual or team to achieve succes at the next level up on regular occassions. Cappello, Clough, Trapatonni not Fergie.
47

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 13:32:15
Nine
"and linking that view tae the fact that you are anti-Rangers it is by all accounts a reasonable assumption tae make"

Explain how its reasonable and give examples of how im anti-Rangers.
48

nineinro,

01/06/2008 13:35:40
45
I always indulge in footie chat as you can check back and see ! I also apologised and you still have a go !
I never made any allegations in the first place ... I merely asked a question in post 29 but as the sad easily offended poster that you are ... it is taken as an attack ! Stop acting like some sad old woman (and don`t even bother mentioning sexists )!

49

Brother Walfrid,

01/06/2008 13:40:00
I hope Fergusson stays at man u for a good few years yet because I reckon Strachan is on the short list as his successor, and with every spl title he picks up, his name will move closer to pole position.

Watching Strachan from down there, they'll see a guy with a man u background, he grew as a player under fergie , so there's a continuity of sorts, and he's breaking records in Scotland by taking Celtic to the last 16 in consecutive seasons on what they would regard as much,much less than a shoestring.

What might Strach achieve with a senior EPL budget if he can take Celtic to within touching distance of the last 8 ?

Mabey this season will be the one that will determine whether Strachan is destined for a Newcastle or one of the giants. Another title and a last 8 CL spot and I think it's agiven that Strachan will be the next Man U manager.
50

nineinro,

01/06/2008 13:41:24
49
Do you think that Sir Alex is a world class manager ?
51

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 13:41:33
nine

So your backtracking now and withdrawing your earlier statement that my view on wether Ferie is 'world class' is not shaped by the fact he once played for RFC.

Good

You must try harder not to make daft comments.
52

nineinro,

01/06/2008 14:31:32
52
I don`t need tae back track ! You are offended by the slightest thing and post 29 was a question that you took out of proportion and got all offended as usual !
Maybe debating is not for you ... perhaps you could try the woman`s guild !
53

nineinro,

01/06/2008 14:53:30
55
I agree that again Brother Watty is talking garbage and that WGS is not in the highest category of managers that will be considered tae be the next Man Utd boss !
54

Brother Walfrid,

01/06/2008 15:19:28
55

If Strachan makes it 4 in a row and takes Celtic into the last 8, I don't believe there is a manager on the planet who would think themselves capable of equalling such a record over 4 years at Celtic.

Were Strachan to achieve 4 in a row and reach the last 8 , he would be THE stand-out manager in British football to take over from Fergie.
Man U wouldn't be the only club in the running.

55

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 15:19:46
56 nine

Your really make an as* of yourself today and not for the first time i might add.

You alleged that the reason i dont consider Fergie a world class manager is because he is a former player of a team/club i hate. You ignore the fact that i often said and consider Bazza a class player and that only recently i disagreed with fellow Celts about Cuellar and how good he was me stating that he looks the real deal.

As your looking more of a muppet with every post it seems best i just ignore your rants and childish remarks.


Not strange you decided to ignore my post at 47 but i will ask again

"and linking that view tae the fact that you are anti-Rangers it is by all accounts a reasonable assumption tae make"

Explain how its reasonable and give examples of how im anti-Rangers?
56

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 15:21:07
Nine

Any examples of me being anti-Rangers or do you wish to apoligise ONCE again?
57

nineinro,

01/06/2008 15:35:39
In post 29 the clue that it is a question and not a stupid statement is the curly squiggle with the dot at the bottom ! You reverting tae name calling and being offended by anything anyone says is the example of childish behaviour. If you can`t stand the heat ... get out of Hell`s Kitchen although you probably don`t like him either and it will have nothing tae do wae the fact that he is a bluenose ! Woman`s institute maybe !
58

nineinro,

01/06/2008 15:37:20
Anyway I`m off down tae Murray park tae look at the Scotland stars of the future !
59

Bosco Bhoy,

------County Donegal------ 01/06/2008 15:56:03
Didnt know SDM had a 'free Buckie' day down at Murray Park.

Ah well run on then you silly boy.
60

Teary Ennui,

01/06/2008 16:20:09
Don't forget Alex Ferguson's achievements at Aberdeen.
61

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 17:06:14
Jambo

Wouldnt you say Fergie would have needed a wee bit more Euro silverware to be considered world class particularly in light of being in charge of the richest club in the world?

As i have said before 2 flucky CL titles in over 2 decades doesnt say world class no matter how proud you might all feel in Scotland about the guys achievments.
62

Fanling,

Switzerland 01/06/2008 17:20:31
#13 bring them on
"So you are awake, in between eating your cheese?"

Being awake is a necessary condition of my work, and assists with occasional glances at these pages too. Raclette, Gruyère and Emmental, my favourites, play a vital part. And no, they are not the current Swiss midfield.

Mixed reception above for Fletcher. I see him as a work in progress. Also agree with #53 (James) that DF might be better served by a move to a lesser but ambitious EPL club where he might get a regular game.
63

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 17:37:47
68 Jambo
Maybe its how you define 'flucky'.

Losing 1-0 after the oppossing team had twice hit the woodwork and scoring 2 goals in extra time qualifys as very very
flucky.

64

Ally,

London 01/06/2008 18:03:29
Fletcher was quite spectacularly diabolical in the away game to Georgia. He might not have played for a while but his basic inability to pass the ball to someone wearing the same colour standing 8 yards away was a disgrace. So he's got a long way to go to prove that he's got the class to make the central midfield position his own. I think it would help him (and us) if he went to Everton to get a game every week - good team, good manager, nice football etc.

I do think that we're in with a shout this time though and Fletcher's comments are spot on.

On Strachan - no way is he in the top ten candidates to replace Fergie at the moment. He beat a shocking Rangers side twice in a row but was looking odds-on to lose by double figures of points this year thanks to some wildly poor signings before Robson and Lennon turned up and Rangers fell to pieces. If he beats Rangers this year again and repeats his CL performance maybe he starts to edge into the frame, but he has to get more consistent and work out how to buy & sell people - something Ferguson has always been extraordinarily good at.
65

Daillyman,

01/06/2008 18:18:23
Bosco

I think you may be a wee bit hard on SAF. True he only has the 2 EC wins and 1 ECWC, but he has still he has them on his CV.

Domestic success in winning leagues and cups in the last 22 years at Man Utd. is unprecedented and doubt that it will be equaled.

As most supporters of clubs would say winning you're domestic league is the most important thing, European glory is icing on the cake.
66

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 18:38:47
Dailyman

I really do admire Fergie for the dynasty and legacy he has given Man Utd and incidentally i equally admire him as a human being and staying true to his humble beginnings but that still does not allow him to be considered world class IMHO.

He really should have done more in Europe over the years with Man Utd clout, profile and wealth.
Often over the last 2 decades he was found wanting in terms of his tactics and the personel he had on the pitch. 2 matches come to mind. The drubbing from an ageing AC last season and the complete annihilation from Barca in the Nou Camp in the early 90's for me demonstrated the mans limitations.

Yep hes wiped the floor domestically but after all its only England.
67

FAN OF GERRY,

glasgow 01/06/2008 18:41:00
Bosco boy you contradict yourself here
"Clough, Shankly and Stein are genuises but not Sir.
Alex"
then you come up with
"Being World Class surely means more than dominating yer own league and requires an individual or team to achieve succes at the next level up on regular occassions. Cappello, Clough, Trapatonni not Fergie"
Well I'm sorry but for me Shankly doesn't fill the genius criteria. Excellent manager yes but misses out on the next level.
If you look at Steins achievements, using your definition, does he achieve real greatness?
68

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 18:41:29
71 Ally

The thing is with Fletcher he is such a nice guy and a dedicated pro people will often overestimate how good he is. I think he still has a lot to proveand that he is no more than the 'water carrier' that Cantona once described a colleague to be.
69

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 18:48:39
FOG 74

Apples and oranges
Stein at Celtic no money to talk of, weak domestic league and gave the rest of Europe a decent run of it.

Yes im hardly impartial but for what he done in Scotland but more importantly in Europe Stein qualifys as genius.
70

FAN OF GERRY,

glasgow 01/06/2008 18:55:30
Bosco
I agree Stein was an excellant manager but a bit of straw grabbing here methinks.
When Stein was at his peak there was nothing like the money in the game that there is now, The gap between Scotlands clubs and the rest was not as big as it is now. Nobody can take away his achievement and he deserves his place in history but I still think Fergie edges him out. Personal opinion but thats what its all about eh?
Have a nice day...
71

Bosco Bhoy,

01/06/2008 18:59:44
FOG 77

No probs big fella, thats what football is all about the opinions and all.

I usualy take a different perspective than most as i try and get beyond the tabloid headlines that feed us.

As a Celt im always disagreeing with mates about how good/crap Lennon was for us and i still find it hard to believe that many see him as Celtic legend.

But hey thats just me.
72

bring them on,

01/06/2008 19:29:08
I don't like Alex Ferguson.
73

Tommydee,

01/06/2008 19:51:03
Teflon BF should not be considered the automatic choice for the captaincy. He seems to think that he can choose the games that he will play in. Burley, choose your own man!
74

bring them on,

01/06/2008 19:57:21
#80

I agree no one should be considered the automatic choice, but right now how many choices does Burley have?
75

bring them on,

01/06/2008 20:08:16
Stein was a genius, and proved it at international level too.

Not as good as Willie Ormond, though.
76

Brother Walfrid,

01/06/2008 20:39:12
78

Every team needs a Neil Lennon. Fergusson does it for Rangers. Someone who infects everyone else with an urgency to reach optimum performance.
The one who'll not allow any slacking off and the one who the players are glad to have on their side even if at times he's biting their legs off. Noone was above a right good bollocking from neil. Even in the friendly with Seville to mark henrik's farewell , he tore strips of petrov for one stray pass.

On the park, Lennon is the driving force that lifts the team and gets everyone properly focussed. Such players are very thin on the ground.
77

nineinro,

01/06/2008 20:48:22
Bosco still refusing tae aknowledge Sir Alex as world class I see. Still at least we now know that it`s not because he`s a bluenose and it`s only because his achievements are 2 flukes in the CL and the rest are only in England ! LOL
78

bring them on,

01/06/2008 20:49:08
#84

And they both like poetry.
79

nineinro,

01/06/2008 20:50:42
84
Lennon certainly wasn`t ... thin on the ground that is !
80

bring them on,

01/06/2008 20:51:18
#85

Let's face it, if you gave Calderwood as big a budget, he could probably achieve the same.
81

bring them on,

01/06/2008 20:52:20
Lennon was thin on top
82

nineinro,

01/06/2008 20:55:07
Good comedy value is Bosco ... unless he is championing woman's lib !
83

nineinro,

01/06/2008 20:56:58
89
That`s not what that lassie in the Sunday Liam said !
84

bring them on,

01/06/2008 20:59:16
You could take the view that Lennon was just a chib merchant, and had no real football skills.

But that would be unfair, IMO
85

nineinro,

01/06/2008 21:22:32
93
Aye ! Tae chib merchants !
86

Skiver,

01/06/2008 21:29:25
It's a shame that the usual knuckleheads have once again hijacked a Scotland story to have petty arguments about the bitter two.

"We're better than yous."

"Naw we're better than yous."

"Yous are rubbish/paranoid/sectarian/bigoted etc etc"

"Naw yous are rubbish/paranoid/sectarian/bigoted etc etc."

It must be a fate worse than death having to sit at a computer while overflowing with hate and bitterness, sometimes when it's sunny outside, getting confused by being at the wind-up and taking the bait at the same time.
87

nineinro,

01/06/2008 21:33:25
95
At least nearly everyone that`s posted has commented on Fletcher ! What`s up wae you ... don`t tell me you`re` confused !
88

bring them on,

01/06/2008 21:44:50
#95

McSkiver

The sun is shining, and all that stuff is very good, but someone has to keep the debates fair....
89

Fanling,

Switzerland 01/06/2008 23:24:25
#83 bring them on

I shared the same pavement for a fleeting moment with the great Willie Ormond, on a street near his home in Musselburgh in 1975. He seemed rightly surprised to see me, such was the humility of the man. I silently acknowledged his greatness with a nod and a stupid grin, which was reciprocated (the nod, that is).

Fletcher will get better, now that his Hibby namesake has joined our lads, if only to confuse English commentators.
90

bring them on,

01/06/2008 23:34:09
#98

On the cheese again? Got some in myself.

England 2-0 up at half-time. James should have been sent off after 5 minutes.

Disgrace.
91

bring them on,

01/06/2008 23:36:43
Fletcher to Fletcher....
92

bring them on,

01/06/2008 23:41:19
England 3-0

The gloating will begin....
93

Fanling,

Switzerland 02/06/2008 00:13:24
#99 BTO

Yup - totally fondued this fine nicht. Helped on its merry way downhill with a cheeky little red number from the neighbourhood Rhône valley.

Didn't see the Angloids' powerful and glorious defeat of our cousins in the Caribbean, but can hardly wait for media reports. (Not Media 1, I mean.)
94

bring them on,

02/06/2008 00:22:35
Jumping up and down about beating a bunch of old men.


The England fans can't get enough of it.
95

Fanling,

Switzerland 02/06/2008 00:52:59
#103
"The England fans can't get enough of it."

Now that really does cheese me off. It's enough to make you want to yodel.

 

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