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St Andrew's Day political battle rages

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Published Date: 30 November 2008
ALISTAIR Darling has delivered a St Andrew's Day warning to the SNP, claiming an independent Scotland would suffer a £4.5bn slump in revenue next year because of the fall in oil prices across the world.


In a letter to SNP ministers made public this weekend, the Chancellor points to figures from his Pre-Budget Report (PBR), which show that oil revenues will fall from £13.2bn this year to £8.7bn next year, as oil slumps to around $60 a barrel.

However, in a St Andrew's Day article in Scotland on Sunday today, First Minister Alex Salmond hits back claiming that it is the UK which is damaging Scotland, by cutting back on public services in the medium term.

The First Minister claims that the Treasury's plans to slash spending in 2010, as it attempts to reduce Britain's £1tn deficit, will lead to a cut of £500m in Scottish cash, the equivalent of Scotland's entire prisons budget.

The fierce row over the economy is set to dominate political debate in Scotland, with SNP ministers claiming last night that the cuts in spending will act as a boost to their campaign for independence. They hope to stage an independence referendum on St Andrew's Day in 2011.

But UK ministers are equally adamant that the global economic crisis provides ample evidence that Scotland's financial base would become highly unstable if it split from the rest of Britain.

In his letter, addressed to Finance Secretary John Swinney, Darling declares: "The Government's successful macro– economic policy enables the UK to manage the extreme volatility in North Sea revenue without disrupting public spending in Scotland next year as it would if there were fiscal autonomy in the form sought by the Scottish Executive.

"North Sea tax forecasts for next year are £4.5bn lower than this year, a fall of one-third."

Darling's figures are based on new projections for oil revenues calculated in the PBR. They show that oil revenues will rise from £7.8bn last year to £13.2bn this year, before falling back to £8.7bn in 2009-10. The fallback has been caused by the steep decline in the price of a barrel of oil from nearly $150 last summer to a predicted $60 throughout next year.

However, the SNP points out that, even with a fallback next year, oil revenues will come to £55bn over the next six years.

Salmond sets out the case today to claim that Scotland could follow the example of countries such as Finland and Norway as being among the few expected to continue to grow in the coming year.

He writes: "Control of all our own resources and the ability to borrow like any normal government would give us the chance to compete on a level playing field with the other countries currently able to use these tools to best suit them and see them through the global downturn.

"Unlike the UK, some small independent European nations like Finland and Norway are projected to keep on growing, with marginal growth in the Euro area as a whole, while the UK plunges into the economic mire."

Meanwhile, the St Andrew's Day battle is joined today by Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie, who hits out at what she claims is the overtly political way in which the SNP Government is using the Saltire. She claimed that at recent by-elections the SNP had "wandered around shopping centres, stood at street corners handing out the Saltire as if they owned the flag, as if it was their exclusive property, as if they had a monopoly on the Saltire and it was their symbol".

She added: "As a proud and patriotic Scot I wish to make today the day when we reclaim the Saltire from the SNP and give it back to Scotland, all of Scotland."

Goldie continued: "It is time that the SNP grew up. Support for independence is not growing. It has remained more or less static for a decade or more. By a vast majority, Scotland does not want a broken Britain. We are happy to be Scottish and British."

However, Salmond writes today: "We believe Scotland should look after its own affairs not because we are intrinsically better than any other nation, but because we are as good as any other.

"We look forward with hope to the new year and to the one beyond, when we offer the people of Scotland the chance to choose the independent future that our nation needs to succeed."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 November 2008 10:11 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

Brian S,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 00:04:52
Paging Rufus...........

I need a good giggle tonight.
2

Fifi la Bonbon,

30/11/2008 00:20:15
I must say I agree with the view that the saltire isn't the SNP's property, or that of any other political party. The SNP already have their distinctive black and yellow colours. We have rightly deplored the BNP's attempts to monopolise the Unon Flag, and we need to discourage the SNP from doing the same thing with the saltire.
3

Brian S,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 00:21:58
Here was me thinking it was Comrade Brown who wrapped himself in the Union Flag.
4

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30/11/2008 00:22:58
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5

Shenachy,

South Queensferry 30/11/2008 00:34:21
Considering that the UK Treasury's last ten forecasts have failed to materialise as predicted - I don't think we should lose too much sleep over Mr. Darling's latest forecast of disaster for Scotland.
6

john z,

edinburgh 30/11/2008 00:43:52
So, let me get this right, Scotland has never received a single penny of money from the Scottish oil since it was first discovered thirty years ago, yet the clown Darling is claiming Scotland will lose out because oil prices are falling.

Is Darling really as thick as he sounds??

And here's a question, where did the 13.2 billion from this year go??? London.

Even is the price of oil falls, we'd like ALL of the future money from Scotlands oil.

Why is Scotland the only oil producing nation in the world that currently gives ALL its oil away for free to another country (england).

Sounds like Darlings has worked one late night too many.

As for Anabel Goldie - 'taking back the saltire' is hardly something I would trust to a political party once ruled by Thatcher who singelhandedly intentionally destroyed much of Scotlands heavy industry, and introduced the vile poll tax.

Jeez,, you coulnd't make it up.

Anyway, Happy St.Andrews day to all the unionist whingers.
7

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 30/11/2008 00:44:45
Speaking as a Nat it wouldn't bother me if the unionist parties used the Saltire more.

Nobodys stopping them, so why don't they?

Afraid that head office might not approve?

I just love that bit about the governments successful Macro-economic policy, what ones that then?

All this from the man who had to stand up in parliament this week and admit he made a mistake, the day after he was arguing with the Scotch Whisky industry and others like the SNP that he was right and they were wrong.

You couldn't make this up!
8

Steve A.,

30/11/2008 00:45:19
#4
Here ye go

£1,000,000,000,000

Some union dividend that is !

The unionists will have to find a dozen north sea's to make that amount of money from the taxing of another country's natural resources !
9

subrosa,

30/11/2008 00:47:02
Not allowed any comments of the fiddling of the Calman Report? Tut tut. Of course they wouldn't want the unionists upset.

All these projected figures by Alistair Darling are just hyperbole. Nobody knows what the figures will be, least of all the chancellor.

Let's get out of this defunct union and work on our own finances. We have the brains in this country to do it. All we need now is the will. Waken up folks before you're paying £50,000 each to dig Gordon Brown and clan out of the sh*te.
10

john z,

edinburgh 30/11/2008 00:48:23
The biggest union NON dividend of them all, is Scotland freely giving all its oil to england, and recieving not one penny for it. What a dreadful undemocratic english union it is.

I do hope the people of Edinburgh give darling a 'bloody nose' at the next general election. Hopefully they will not forget the way in which he and comrad Brown have willfully sh*fted the Edinburgh banking sector to help win votes in england..
11

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 30/11/2008 00:49:39
2 I am not aware that the SNP have staked a claim on the Saltire. However, given that they are the biggest mainstream party based wholly in Scotland, as opposed to being subsidiaries of larger UK parties, it is hardly surprising if the Saltire is associated with the SNP

Labour is a UK party, that is why they are not associated with the Saltire, as Westminster calls the shots.

12

john z,

edinburgh 30/11/2008 00:57:05
If, it can be shown that Brown or the home secretary DID know about the arrest of Damien Green, will this issue become the UK equivalent of Watergate?? It certainly has all the makings of it.

If Brown or the home secretary really didn't know, then the Home Secretary should resign

Has Brown abused his powers of office?? Will there be a whitewash in 10 Downing Street?? Looks like it's jut starting to get going tomorrow morning.

As for the Calman commission report, at the very least it will go down in history, as perhaps a 'low point' in the career of Professor Calman.

Everyone knew well in advance it would say just what Brown wanted it to.
13

Rasco,

30/11/2008 01:07:36
A warning from Darling we are all cowering in a corner I see Gray and Goldie are going to make a ferocious attack on the SNP I wish they would get together and call a vote of no confidence in SNP AND CALL AN ELECTION they don't have the guts,Rumble to side with them. Where are you today Rufus.
14

Tom R,

30/11/2008 01:14:03
#2 Fifi.....

The reason the SNP is so strongly associated with the saltire is because the other parties went for decades waving the Union flag but have now found that rag is not as popular north of the border as they would like.

This has gone on for so long that anyone who waves the saltire is thought to be an SNP supporter, but that is the mistake of the unionists , not the SNP.

As for that incompetent Darling, his sums never add up-his latest screw up being to accidentally miscalculate last week so that he hiked the price of whisky-he had to apologise for that and reverse his position.

Darling is incompetent, and we are all about to pay the price-if the oil so worthless, let Holyrood control it .
15

Guga II,

Rockall 30/11/2008 01:33:57
Do the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party really think that anyone with any common sense would actually believe a word they say (other than self-deluded Unionists)?

They have shown themselves to be liars and charlatans, as well as being totally corrupt. They have even been distorting the Calman Commission report to suit their own ends; despite the fact that the Calman Commission was set up by them, with the assistance of their Unionist pals, to give the "right" answers.

As for the Saltire being associated with the SNP, that is not in the slightest bit surprising. After all, Labour, the Tories and the Whigs, being goood little Unionist parties, run from and controlled by London, are the ones that are forever wrapping themselves in the Butcher's Apron.

Regarding the Quisling Maggie Broon, and his equally quisling little Darling, their efforts to imply that Scotland, as an independent country, would have suffered badly with falling oil prices, is another example of their blatant lies and distortions. All the oil money has been stolen by the English government over the years, and will continue to be stolen from us till we can regain our independence. We have to go cap in hand to our colonial masters to ge a small portion of the monies stolen from Scotland by the English government. The rest goes towards subsidising the English.

If the English thought that they were actually subsidising Scotland, they would have agreed to our independence a long time ago. Because it is the other way around, they are determined to hang on to, and exploit us.

16

Castaway™ ,

30/11/2008 01:49:28
Alistair Darling and the shifting/adjusted baselines.
Government claims to have made billions of pounds worth of savings on bureaucracy were called into question yesterday only hours after Alistair Darling said savings of £20bn had already been achieved.

Efficiency savings of £10bn fail close scrutiny - The methodology used is complicated but some reductions were achieved by shifting the statistical baseline against which improvements were measured, said the report.

The Department of Health was able to claim it had slimmed its workforce by an additional 450 people, and the Department of Work and Pensions to say it had made an extra 2060 job reductions, simply by using a starting date which was before the efficiency drive even began.

One "statistically unsound adjustment to a baseline" alone added £300m to reported efficiencies at the Department of Health, said the committee.
Herald 11 Oct 2007 http://tinyurl.com/5medgc
17

Edward,

30/11/2008 02:00:04
So countries with similar population sizes, such as Finland Denmark and Norway are doing reasonably well as independent countries, two dont even have oil!
But Scotland somehow would fail badly if it were independent. Darling wants us to beleive that were entriely dependent on hand outs from England, yet, its England that reseives all of the Oil revenue from Scotland!. Even if there were no oil, we somehow wd not be able to manage on our own!. HOW PATHETIC OF CREEP DARLING!!
Countries that are smaller than Scotland do better
Its time Scotland woke up to the lies thats being fed
18

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30/11/2008 02:17:52
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19

Scunnert,

30/11/2008 02:26:18
Quebec, Labrador natives to declare unilateral sovereignty over their territory
Canwest News Service
Published: Friday, November 28, 2008

The Quebec and Labrador Assembly of First Nations said yesterday the provincial and federal governments have failed them and they intend to unilaterally declare their sovereignty. Ghislain Picard, who heads the regional chapter, said the native chiefs gathered for a meeting this week have adopted a declaration to set in motion a process to "strengthen the affirmation of their sovereignty over the territory." Over the next three months, First Nations leaders in Quebec and Labrador will come up with a concrete plan to implement the right of aboriginal peoples to self-determination and self-governance. "Governments are acting like we don't exist, like we don't have any rights on the territory," Mr. Picard said in an interview. "We've had more than enough of that. We've served them an ultimatum and they didn't react. The dialogue is over now and it's time to act." He referred to Quebec Premier Jean Charest's plan to develop the northern part of the province, lamenting that the First Nations who live there have not been consulted.
20

Scunnert,

30/11/2008 02:39:44
Greenland Braces for Independence and Wealth

By Manfred Ertel
With its rich deposits of oil, diamonds and zinc, Greenland is joining the race for new natural resources. Many Greenlanders hope the island's untapped wealth will pave the way to independence.

Aleqa was the first born child in a family from Uummannaq in northern Greenland, and that would normally have meant that her life was already mapped out for her. In the region, about 600 kilometers (373 miles) north of the Polar Circle, halibut, whales and seals have shaped the cycle of life for centuries. The men go fishing and hunting, while the women cook and raise the children. There is little room for extravagance on the fringes of the eternal ice.

Today Aleqa Hammond is 43. She is the foreign minister and finance minister of the semi-autonomous island republic, and an important advocate for removing the polar island from the Kingdom of Denmark, which also includes the Faroe Islands. Greenland wants independence. "It's a natural and perfectly normal step," says Hammond. "We don't look like Danes, we don't think like Danes, and we are not Danes."

Referendum Results:

More than 75 percent of Greenlanders voted Tuesday in favour of self-rule in a referendum that paves the way for independence from Denmark, final results showed.

A total of 75.54 percent voted "yes" to greater autonomy, while 23.57 percent said "no," the local government said.

A self-rule proposal hammered out with Denmark earlier this year gives Greenland, which was granted semi-autonomy from Copenhagen in 1979, rights to potentially lucrative Arctic resources, as well as control over justice and police affairs and, to a certain extent, foreign affairs.

The local government said 71.96 percent of the island's 39,000 eligible voters had cast ballots.
21

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 04:51:59
Aunty Annabel appears to be irritated by the fact that the SNP clearly and unequivocally identify themselves as being an inclusive Scottish based political organisation, open to all residents of this nation, irrespective of their origin, colour, religion, class or creed.

The saltire is symbol under which all strands of our society can unite and show common cause.

Much in the same way that fans supporting various different football clubs can come together at Hampden Park and display their common allegiance towards our international football team by use of the saltire, it is entirely appropriate that those who choose to support the Scottish (Inter)National Party, do likewise.

How many butcher’s aprons do you see being carried by the Tartan Army?
22

Phil C,

30/11/2008 04:56:50
£4.5 billion slump eh? That's surely nothing compared to the £1 trillion slump Labour has caused!
23

Phil C,

30/11/2008 04:58:05
I note that the SOS is celebrating St Andrews Day in positive style!!
24

Phil C,

30/11/2008 05:03:10
And finally- A story dedicated to the Patron Saint of a country that isn't.......
Once upon a time in a land where the clouds resembled cuckoos there lived a rather grumpy ogre called, strangely, Prudence. He had installed himself as king over divided kingdoms after deposing the previous ruler, who had been a sheep of rather dubious integrity, in wolf’s clothing. They were both products of the northern land. Together they had hypnotised many of the little people into believing that they were doing a worthwhile job running the kingdom. Together they were good and kind. They oversaw a land of milk and honey and had good friends in a far away land of wealth and burgers.

They made lots of little people rich through borrowing lots of money to buy lots of things. With their banker friends they encouraged poor little people to borrow bucketloads, they encouraged rich little people to buy pension houses for poor little people to finance, making houses rocket in value and stopping the young first timers from making the mistake of buying for themselves. They took money from little people saving to become old little people, to stop them wasting their cash. They gave lots of people jobs pushing papers around. They made sure the kingdom’s army was used to the full spreading goodwill in foreign lands, and that the little people were defended by big rockets. They took lots of money from the little people and spent it where they could and pronounced that there would be no more rainy days, so why save!

Cleverly, they ignored the democratic noise coming from the cold and barren northern land of common sense. All was indeed rosy in the kingdom for the daydreaming little people.

It came to pass that Prudence gave the keys to the kingdom’s economy to his fellow northerner, a half badger, half zebra called Badbra, who was short-sighted and couldn’t see that he was sitting not on a throne, but on a pile of Prudence’s poo. Lo and behold the whole lot caved in and Prudence sudde
25

Phil C,

30/11/2008 05:04:16
(continued) Lo and behold the whole lot caved in and Prudence suddenly didn’t look so clever. Badbra and Prudence blamed all their foreign friends for the mess.

The money lenders grumbled that they had lent too much to bad little people. Vast riches were made available by Badbra for the kingdom’s bankers to squirrel away. They wouldn’t give it to the little people who had made the kingdom run smoothly, thus saving them risk and giving them easy lives without work. The bad banks in the north were invited south, so that the north wouldn’t be over-dependant on finance.

And many of the little people continued to believe and they trusted Prudence and Badbra. To reward this loyalty this jolly pair decided to borrow more money from the little people and they showered all the little people with wealth beyond their dreams. Money that the little people would pay back gratefully. Great joy was felt throughout the red bits of the land, where many still lived under hypnosis. The little people were to spend this bounty in the dwindling number of shops, thus fixing all the mess that Prudence had created. Others thought the jar in the corner was a better place for their new-found wealth. Yet more would spend it on a fish supper.

…..And that northern kingdom remained cold and unloved, despite it’s hidden riches, and more and more little people felt cheated by Prudence and wanted to rule their own kingdom, but still too many little people slept, too frightened to wake up.

But hey ho! They all lived happily ever after…….or will we?
26

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 30/11/2008 05:58:05
Annabel Goldie said:-

"As a proud and patriotic Scot I wish to make today the day when we reclaim the Saltire from the SNP and give it back to Scotland, all of Scotland."

According to the "Concise Oxford Dictionary" a "traitor" is defined as "a person who is treacherous or disloyal to his country"

The same dictionary defines a "Patriot" as "A person who is devoted to and ready to support or defend his or her country"

Annabel Goldie also said "We are happy to be Scottish and British"

You cannot possibly be both!

According to the definitions, that makes her a traitor and not a patriot therefore the Nationalists are entitled to wave and carry the Saltire and she is NOT.
27

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 30/11/2008 06:32:37
I see that according to the unionists we the SCOTS are still uncapable of walking upright and produceing OIL at the same time. PATHETIC IS LONDON AND PATHETHETIC IS THE LEIBOUR PARTY. Independence is our only savour.
28

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30/11/2008 06:55:44
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30/11/2008 07:00:51
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30/11/2008 07:03:12
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John S,

30/11/2008 07:09:25
There is also a political battle taking place in the constituency of East Lothian.
Senior activists in East Lothian, including former councillors and office-holders, are actively discussing running an "Independent Labour" candidate against MP Anne Moffat if the party moves to expel her opponents.

One senior Labour figure in East Lothian told the Sunday Herald dozens of activists would back a rival to Moffat even if it meant leaving Labour.
If the party decides to carry out expulsions then there will be an independent candidate, I can assure you of that.It would be huge.The party would just fall.

At the next Scottish parliament election Iain Gray could lose the seat because his base would be gone.He wouldn't have the backing of the main people within the constituency, because we would be out of the party.
Herald Nov 30 2008 - http://tinyurl.com/5k3mab
32

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 08:17:24
So Salmond is now comparing us to Norway and, wait for it . . . .Finland!

What? No Iceland? No Ireland?

What happened to the Celtic Lion?

What happened to the Arc Of Prosperity?

So it would have taken 3 years oil revenue to bail out The Royal Bank Of Scotland.

A further years worth of revenue to bail out Hbos.

The oil fund would be as empty as a jackie priest/Spanners birthday party.
Salmond will not be happy until he has bankrupted Scotland.
33

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 30/11/2008 08:23:28
From the "McCrone report"):- commissioned by the British government in 1974 and subsequently "buried" for 30 years due to its content:-

"It must be concluded therefore that large revenues and balance of payments
gains would indeed accrue to a Scottish Government in the event of
independence provided that steps were taken either by carried interest or by
taxation to secure the Government ‘take’. Undoubtedly this would banish any
anxieties the Government might have had about its budgetary position or its
balance of payments. The country would tend to be in chronic surplus to a
quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in
Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian kroner. Just as deposed
monarchs and African leaders have in the past used the Swiss franc as a
haven of security, so nowwould the Scottish pound be seen as a good hedge
against inflation and devaluation and the Scottish banks could expect to find
themselves inundated with a speculative inflow of foreign funds."

SCOTLAND WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE WITH INDEPENDENCE.
34

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 08:26:00
I presume the Arc of Insanity is now a 'busted flush' to use SNP parlance.

Our new arc (which we must aim for or else) contains Greenland, Finland and Norway.

Greenland is particularly interesting. They have gained autonomy whilst still continuing to bleed Denmark dry. A point clearly not lost on subsidy junkie Salmond.
35

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30/11/2008 08:32:19
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30/11/2008 08:33:01
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30/11/2008 08:35:05
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Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 08:36:55
#57 Jock

One major flaw in your somewhat laborious post.

There are no Scottish banks left.

Even although Salmond said earlier this year 'our banks are amongst the most stable financial institutions in the world'. Yes Alex of course they are. Yes we can and all that.

The only reason they still exist is down to the magnificent actions taken by messers Brown and Darling, who should be congratulated for the radical solutions they implemented.
39

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30/11/2008 08:39:40
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Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 08:42:41
Spanners why do you post under several monikers?

Why do you post under sm7531/2 (almost a direct copy of sm753). As well as Jackie Priest/Parcel etc?

Why do you do it?
41

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30/11/2008 08:43:57
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30/11/2008 08:44:36
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Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 08:47:04
63 The Scottish banks are now owned by the Uk government. The fact that the banks still exist and will still employ tens of thousands of people (even after cuts) must be a good thing I would have thought.
44

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 08:49:38
#66 I answered your question you dimwit. Now you answer mine.

Why use multiple monikers?
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30/11/2008 08:50:29
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30/11/2008 08:51:11
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Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 08:52:27
Come on Priest answer the question.

Why do you post (with exactly the same spelling errors) under different monikers?

Why do you do it?
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30/11/2008 08:53:29
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Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 08:53:57
#70 You Liar.

50

Daveunderwater,

30/11/2008 08:56:39
tick tock tick tock

£4000.00 a second and rising

BRITAIN'S BROWN BANKRUPTCY

IT'S ALL GONE PETE TONG, to coin a Cockney phrase
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30/11/2008 08:57:38
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30/11/2008 08:58:38
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30/11/2008 09:01:58
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Daveunderwater,

30/11/2008 09:02:29
The wealthy Mrs. Tory Teasdale insists that Rufus T. Firefly be appointed leader of the small, bankrupt country of Caledonia before she will continue to provide much-needed financial assistance. Meanwhile, neighbouring Anglia is attempting to take over the country. Anglian ambassador Trentino (tries to foment a revolution, woos Mrs. Teasdale, and attempts to dig up dirt on Firefly by sending in spies Chicolini and Pinky
55

Daveunderwater,

Silver City by the Grey North Sea 30/11/2008 09:08:17
The "Caledonia National Anthem" is used frequently throughout the film, both as vocal and instrumental; the entire song seems to consist of "Hail, Hail, Caledonia, land of the brave and free", contrasting with the final line of The Star-Spangled Banner. The "Angliia theme", which sounds vaguely like "Rule Britannia", is also used several times.
56

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 09:08:17
#69 Spanners/Priest/Liar

Its a shame you cannot comprehend the gravity of the situation that Hbos found itself in.

It was going bust.

If it did Rbs would have followed it.

Scotland would have gone to the wall. As part of the UK, the banks have been saved, and tens of thousands of jobs safeguarded. Thanks to Gordon and Alistair.

An economic illiterate like you cannot possibly see this however.

Your blinkered viewpoint limits you to posting hogwash on here, day in day out, under several monikers.

You should try and 'up your game' and make some positive constructive contributions.

Something that I am sure you are incapable of.
57

Daveunderwater,

30/11/2008 09:10:04
No 69

Not good for China

Good for Engerland
58

aljok.23,

the world 30/11/2008 09:11:15
Scotland will benefit in all ways through independence.So will her all neighbours. The beginning and end of chapter.
59

Daveunderwater,

30/11/2008 09:11:33
Saint Andrew is the Patron Saint of Scotland, and St. Andrew's Day is celebrated by Scots around the world on the 30th November. The flag of Scotland is the Cross of St. Andrew, and this is widely displayed as a symbol of national identity.

The "Order of Saint Andrew" or the "Most Ancient Order of the Thistle" is an order of Knighthood which is restricted to the King or Queen and sixteen others. It was established by James VII of Scotland in 1687.

Very little is really known about St. Andrew himself. He was thought to have been a fisherman in Galilee (now part of Israel), along with his elder brother Simon Peter (Saint Peter). Both became followers (apostles) of Jesus Christ, founder of the Christian religion.

St. Andrew is said to have been responsible for spreading the tenets of the Christian religion though Asia Minor and Greece. Tradition suggests that St. Andrew was put to death by the Romans in Patras, Southern Greece by being pinned to a cross (crucified). The diagonal shape of this cross is said to be the basis for the Cross of St. Andrew which appears on the Scottish Flag.
60

Daveunderwater,

30/11/2008 09:12:55
Saint Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland, Greece and Russia and was Christ's first disciple.

There are around 600 pre-Reformation churches in England named after Saint Andrew, in contrast to Scotland's handful of churches of all denominations named after the saint. Nevertheless, it was Scotland that adopted Andrew as its patron - probably because, Saint Andrew being the brother of Saint Peter, it gave the Scots considerable political leverage with the Pope in pleading for help against the belligerent English!
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Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 30/11/2008 09:14:35
#62 Rufus

You use the word "flaw" in your normal style in an attempt to back up your usual anti - Scotland ravings.

I merely quoted, verbatim, a section of a report commissioned by the British government, clearly showing that the unionist financial arguments against Scotland's Independence are (not only wrong) but their own analysis (the McCrone report) proves beyond all doubt that they (and you) are trying to fool the Scottish people.

Let's face it! you and the rest of your unionist friends will do anything to preserve the subjugation of Scotland and her people, because without the union, (without Scotland) Britain has nothing!

62

Daveunderwater,

30/11/2008 09:14:43
During the reign of Malcolm Canmore and Queen Margaret, devotion to Saint Andrew became nationwide and Andrewmas was made a national festival. Scottish soldiers fighting in the Crusades honoured Saint Andrew as Patron of Christian Knighthood.

In 1318 St. Andrew's Cathedral was dedicated and became known as the Canterbury of the North. It was the largest church in Scotland before the Reformation. In 1411 Saint Andrew's University was founded and sixty-one years later, the See of St. Andrews was raised to Metropolitan status.

At the Reformation, the great Morbrac (reliquary) which carried the bones of the saint and weighed one third of a ton, was destroyed. The street games, the festivities, the fireworks and the processions with evergreens, which used to take place on 30 November, were banished for ever.
63

Daveunderwater,

30/11/2008 09:15:13
BRING BACK ANDREWMAS!!
64

Daveunderwater,

30/11/2008 09:16:44
R T FF = AM2
65

John S,

30/11/2008 09:22:24
#62-RTF-You said there are no Scottish banks left.
#67-RTF-The Scottish banks are now owned by the UK government.
Now are you really sure about your two statements ?

66

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/11/2008 09:30:03
You have to laugh at Annabel's comments re the Saltire and the SNP. If she objects to the SNP using the flag as if it is theirs exclusively, maybe she should consider doing the same. As a proud Scot she should have no problem doing so.
67

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30/11/2008 09:30:08
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30/11/2008 09:32:53
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/11/2008 09:43:54
#9 subrosa

Hyperbole indeed.

One thing we can say with absolute certainty is that Brown and Darling will always spin the facts to make things look bleak for Scotland. We all know that they are politically driven to do so.

Do you remember Darling's response to Salmond's demand for Scotland getting a bigger share of the exchequer's oil revenue windfall this year. Darling argued that this was offset by a reduction in other tax revenues as a result of the rise in oil prices.

Now he is quite happy to present the £4.5bn reduction in oil revenues in isolation with no attendant increase in "other" related taxes. Brown and Darling are bare-faced liars and every utterance should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
70

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30/11/2008 09:47:15
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30/11/2008 09:48:07
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30/11/2008 09:51:13
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30/11/2008 09:58:57
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C.RABBIT,

FIFE 30/11/2008 10:03:51
Never mind Darling Brown Green Gold Smith Camoron St.Andrew or the Saltire, today is my birthday and it does not get a mention anywhere.

75

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30/11/2008 10:05:36
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TWC,

30/11/2008 10:05:49
If Darling thinks we would be so badly off why did Labour manipulate the Muscatellli input to the Calman commission.
It is almost certain that the Full Fiscal Autonomy proposal was the best option for Scotland.
77

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 10:07:29
#81 Rufus
I note that you have taken to describing another individual on here as being an “economic illiterate”.

Can you remind us again of the figure you posted a number of times as representing the UK revenues from North Sea oil in 2009-2010?

Then tell us why your figure varies somewhat from the UK Govt’s forecast?

This answer will undoubtedly establish your credentials as a top notch economist alongside the likes of Marx, Keynes, Galbraith and Schumacher.

On the other hand, you stand the risk of being exposed as being a none too bright recycler of labourist lies and propaganda.

78

JenJen,

30/11/2008 10:09:43
"The fierce row over the economy is set to dominate political debate in Scotland, with SNP ministers claiming last night that the cuts in spending will act as a boost to their campaign for independence. They hope to stage an independence referendum on St Andrew's Day in 2011."

So the referendum we were getting in 2010 is now a mere "hope" for 2011?

Interesting that as the SNP deservedly prospers (the blip at Glenrothes notwithstanding), desire for independence wanes.
79

The_Reiver,

30/11/2008 10:13:30
I love Scotland too, but unlike the SNP I don't have the urge to f*** it.
80

JenJen,

30/11/2008 10:15:08
Is there anyone on this forum who would ever admit that the party they support, whether that be Labour or SNP, has ever been wrong or made a mistake?

I'm so bored of :

Good things happen in Scotland - due to SNP
Bad things happen in Scotland - due to Westminster

versus

Good things happen in Scotland - due to Westminster
Bad things happen in Scotland - due to SNP

It's incredibly immature and dreadfully embarrassing when you consider people from other countries might drop in here from time to time.

I'm quite sure some of you guys appear on football forums too and that there you're perfectly capable of constructively criticising your chosen side whilst still supporting it. Do you think it possible in Scotland that we'll ever get to that level of objectivity and maturity, when the (obviously MUCH less important) subject under discussion is our political future?
81

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30/11/2008 10:19:06
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/11/2008 10:19:13
#105 JenJen said:

"Good things happen in Scotland - due to SNP
Bad things happen in Scotland - due to Westminster"

"Good things happen in Scotland - due to Westminster
Bad things happen in Scotland - due to SNP"

Jen, I can say with all honesty that you are the only person on these threads that I have ever seen saying the above or even variations on that theme.

It's just an incredibly silly thing to say !
83

JenJen,

30/11/2008 10:31:36
#107 Loving your naughty sense of humour, connaughtboy.

But just in case anyone takes it seriously, can I invite you to read posts 24, 25, 26, 44, 49, 50, 51 and a good deal more, and see if you can find anything other than 100% slavish devotion to their particular cause? This lot appear to be mostly unfortunate SNP representatives (unfortunate for the SNP that is, whose excellent work they are steadily undoing); other threads have exactly the same foam-at-the-mouth guff about Labour/Westminster. No objectivity, no serious analysis - just monocular worship. Awful.

What did that guy say about "to see ourselves as ithers see us"? This is embarrassing, immature, silly titt-for-tat stuff.
84

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 10:38:43
"102 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 30/11/2008 10:07:29
#81 Rufus

Can you remind us again of the figure you posted a number of times as representing the UK revenues from North Sea oil in 2009-2010?"

Yes Bully Wee, the figure I got (1.1 Billion)was available on www.lloyds.com which is a normally a very reliable website. I have just rechecked to get the link but cannot find it.

They must have realised their error and taken it down.

So therefore I retract my figures.

85

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/11/2008 10:40:07
#108 Jen

Rather than reeling off a whole series of posts, can you give me any evidence to back up the claims in your post #105?

I think you will struggle.

Meanwhile let debate continue, even if you think it embarrassing, immature and silly.

86

noswod,

Honestas 30/11/2008 10:40:09
Aye its Mr Sweep telling it as it is to all us Jockies, we are bust ! and dependent on cash from the also bust Southern Iceland Britons. Margaret Slamond also shows her elite SBR economist training that has done so well for that organisation - where no bust the credit card company has got it wrong. Anyway if we are bust I am going to make it worse by introducing a new poll tax and stopping ony additional local government spending, the edge of the political cliff here we come. When will everyone realise we get more by being able tae get the big cheques frae the Southern Britons and that now it has gone beyond seriousness or petty political games. Are are on the precipilce of economic collapse and all should pull together. The days for having petty political squabbles about abstract concepts of indendence are over.
87

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 10:40:21
#103 JenJen writes:-

“So the referendum we were getting in 2010 is now a mere "hope" for 2011?”

However, none other than the First Minister writes (in today’s copy of Scotland on Sunday):-

“The SNP Government is determined that the people of Scotland should be given the choice to put our country on that level playing field. Our National Conversation on the country's constitutional future, which has so far gathered around 450,000 hits on its web pages, paves the way for the independence referendum we are proposing for 2010.”

Let this be a lesson to you.

Be wary of comments from unionista orientated journos pursuing their own particular agenda.
88

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 10:41:01
"61 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 27/11/2008 09:36:02
Rufus gives us his insight into the world of football:-
“What happened to Celtic last night?
1 point out of 54.
Dear oh Dear.”
He appears to know as much about football as he does about Scottish politics.
1 point out of 54?
In the Champions League Celtic have two points out of a possible 15.
I guess figures just aint Rufus’s thing."
****************************************************
Well BULLY WEE you were talking unadulterated garbage with this one.

Remember it?

The figure IS 1 point out of 54.

Still dispute it?
89

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 10:48:46
95 sm 7531/2,30/11/2008 09:47:15
81 Lying troll.
Why would RBS have automatically followed down the same path as HBOS?? where is the connection between the two that doesnt exist for any other bank in the country idiot boy?

***************************************************

What a dimwit you are. If one bank goes down, it takes the rest of the banks with it. Their deals are all inter-linked.

If even one party in the payment system network is unable to meet its financial obligations
(for example because of lack of capital or ineffective operational procedures) then this can
lead to serious shortfalls in liquidity for the other participants, provoking a domino effect
and potentially causing the collapse of the whole system.

Why do you think Northern Rock was bailed out over a year ago?
90

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/11/2008 10:50:06
#112 bully wee

Indeed, Jen's is in fact quoting Eddie Barnes in her reference to "2011", whilst ignoring the source that really matters, the Scottish (SNP) Goverment who say:

"Our National Conversation.............paves the way for the independence referendum we are proposing for 2010.”

A political agenda Jen or just naivety?
91

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30/11/2008 10:51:39
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radge dug,

30/11/2008 10:51:43
So Darling, that means the stricken, over burdened UK economy will suffer too? Gordon Brown too pins much of his UK budget on Scots' oil. He now needs to borrow heavily to keep up with England's huge appetite for war.

Seems like an independent Scotland would be in a better position.

Aye, and well done to Hearts yesterday. The hate-filled sectarian 'Brit Nat Unionist' filth coming from the Gers fans was appalling. Fine them.
93

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 10:52:32
#92
Union is Best = Aberdeenshire Scot = Ayrshire Scot = We are responsible for ourselves = Iwilhelm = MCkellerator = Kyle the Carrot = Pee stained Pyjama man and many others.

The psychotic weirdo.

His constant obsession with me continues.

Poor guy, very misunderstood.
94

radge dug,

30/11/2008 10:52:45
Think Rufus is jealous cos the English have no culture.
95

radge dug,

30/11/2008 10:53:51
What happens when you leave an Englishman (Rufus perhaps) and a pot of yoghurt standing?

Eventually, the yoghurt developes it's own culture.
96

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 10:54:32
Aberdeenshire Scot, get over you obsession with me.

You still thinking about me 'pee-stained pyjama pants' as you often post?

What a weirdo.
97

Queen D,

Glasgow 30/11/2008 10:54:44
A happy Saint Andrews Day to one and all!
Nosdroveya, I am sorry about the spelling!
Regarding the sensible Auntie Annabel, there are times when we all say foolish and inane things.
We embarrass ourselves and blush.
The Saltire is the flag of Scotland and there is nothing to stop the unionist parties of Scotland from waving it . The fact that they have chosen to wave the Union flag has been noted over the years by most of us in Scotland.
Her sudden fervour to embrace the Saltire is therefore viewed as expediency on her part.
As for the economy , all I can say is , get your stock cupboards loaded, warm clothes ready and buy gold.
Ignore the Darling for he talks truth only once in his lifetime and he's already done that by admitting the public were pi**ed off with the antics of New Labour.
98

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30/11/2008 10:55:33
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Islay Herald,

30/11/2008 10:56:01
So Alistair Darling uses St. Andrews Day to belittle Scotland, to allege that we couldn't stand on our own two feet, and we the 'proud and patriotic' people of Scotland are just accepting this? In any other country, where people genuinely are proud and patriotic, this would not be tolerated on a national day.
100

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 10:56:07
90 John S,30/11/2008 09:22:24
#62-RTF-You said there are no Scottish banks left.
#67-RTF-The Scottish banks are now owned by the UK government.
Now are you really sure about your two statements ?
******************************************************

Yes I am extremely sure. Both statements are correct.
101

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/11/2008 10:56:51
#122 Queen D

Quite right. If Annabel is really a Scot and a Brit she could wave both flags !
102

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30/11/2008 10:57:11
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Queen D,

Glasgow 30/11/2008 10:57:18
P.S Anyone see a clip of a toad eating a firefly?
The firefly was still pulsating inside the toad and could be clearly seen while slowly dissolving in the digestive juices of the toad.
QI don't you think?
104

Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 10:58:13
123 sm 7531/2,30/11/2008 10:55:33

Believe what you want.

I could not care less.

You have as many "sign ons" as that other weirdo Aberdeenshire Scot or whatever he calls himself today.

As such you come from no position of strength.
105

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/11/2008 10:58:54
#125 rufus. Care to tell us what the government shareholding is in these Scottish banks?
106

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30/11/2008 10:59:10
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30/11/2008 10:59:39
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Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 10:59:44
127 sm 7531/2,30/11/2008 10:57:11
114

Fuukkk off firefly your not even trying to sound sincere. Its all wind up and sh*t stirring now you have nothing left. Looking to have the blog shut down again eh?
**********************************************

I am not the one swearing on here you dimwit.

If thread is closed down, then go and have a look in the mirror to see why.
109

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30/11/2008 11:01:07
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30/11/2008 11:01:28
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30/11/2008 11:01:42
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Islay Herald,

30/11/2008 11:02:38
BTW Would Unionists please PLEASE stop trying to claim they are 'proud and patriotic' Scots.
I can't comprehend why you expect me to believe this is the case. As a Unionist you think Scotland is better off as a subordinate part of a larger country. You think that it is better to submit Scotland's interests to fit in with those of a larger country. You don't think Scotland is capable of standing on its own, you are content for Scotland to remain a parochial region of north west Europe. You don't want this country to re-join the international community as an equal and independent sovereign member. While I would never grudge anyone's right to hold to this opinion, would you please stop trying to tell me you ar proud and patriotic. I don't believe you. This is plain hypocrisy.
113

mesmiths,

fife 30/11/2008 11:04:04
Rufus T Firefly makes my brain bleed. His attempts at logic are trully crazy making. He is Labour-party-tastic!
114

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30/11/2008 11:04:24
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30/11/2008 11:05:04
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John S,

30/11/2008 11:10:24
#125 RFT - Yes I am extremely sure. Both statements are correct.
I am extremely sure you are wrong and I can prove it.
117

Gtj,

30/11/2008 11:11:35
This rubbish website is so pro Liebour it is cringe worthy.
118

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 30/11/2008 11:13:47
Happy St Andrews day to everyone. I am happy to be a Scot and look forward to when Scotland takes it's rightfull place amongst the Worlds other Independent Nations.
Most Scots tend to look forward on this particular day, however Unionists such as Brown and Darling see it as an opportunity to rubbish their Country at every opportunity, sad, however it doesn't go unnoticed by the Scottish electorate
119

Yr Awel,

Here & There 30/11/2008 11:21:56
The SNP may pretend to own the Saltire, but much more problematic is their use of words like 'we', 'our' and 'us'.
Funny (well, not really...) for a party that keeps saying you can't make blanket claims about national identity in the UK.
I also wonder why they don't use the European flag more... LOL!
Another basic problem is that they focus on the economic argument while an independent Scotland would be about a new constitution which is nothing but a POLITICAL framework (with rights and duties regardless of the price of oil or whatever). Yet another contradiction...
So, to put it in a nutshell, long live the SNP (and its activists) as an expression of Scotland's diversity, but NOT as a common denominator.
120

watcher,

edinburgh 30/11/2008 11:23:04
Shir Shawn thinks the Saltire belongs him. Parasite hasn`t paid tax since he was a Milkman.
121

Queen D,

Glasgow 30/11/2008 11:24:48
Me too Westfield Bairns, me too!

Connaughtboy , that could keep her busy in a high wind!

Why do any of you seemingly sensible people respond directly to the attention seeker?
Try the indirect approach!
122

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30/11/2008 11:26:54
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bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 11:40:58
#145 Blinkered writes:-
“Shir Shawn thinks the Saltire belongs him. Parasite hasn`t paid tax since he was a Milkman.”

Oh really, and you can back this statement up with evidence?
124

Fred Quimby,

30/11/2008 11:45:00
German unemployment has just dropped!
125

Fred Quimby,

30/11/2008 11:47:24
#144
Yr Awel,
Here & There 30/11/2008 11:21:56

That was an incomprehensible bowl of alphabet soup with many of the letters reversed and upside down.

Lang nicht was it?
126

Satire above all,

30/11/2008 11:56:04
The saltire belongs to every Scot in this land who believes it should fly higher above any other flag...that it should be flown from dawn to dusk above any building in Scotland especially Government buildings and especially Castles. And I mean ABOVE any other flag.

Any Scot who believes otherwise...who believes that it should take second place to a butchers rag has no right to any claim to it.
127

Satire above all,

30/11/2008 12:01:55
Happy Saint Andrew's Day to all those the world over who embrace Scotalnd's culture...and especailly to those who believe in an Independent Scotland.
128

Satire above all,

30/11/2008 12:04:57
Well spoken Islay Herald...couldn't have put it better myself. If they are not with us, they are against us.
129

Islay Herald,

30/11/2008 12:14:47
Following on from Al Darling's comments, have a look at this link and see how a genuinely patriotic people react to one of their own telling them their country is better off as a subordinate part of another country:

http://www.sundayherald.com/international/shinternational/display.var.1580525.0.anger_at_authors_call_for_iberian_union_with_spain.php
130

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 30/11/2008 12:19:39
#153 Satire above all

Best comments so far. Very well put.

131

Kenny Farquharson,

SoS 30/11/2008 12:22:45
Hello.
If you're interested in Scottish politics take a look at The Steamie (www.scotlandonsunday.com/thesteamie), a new blog on Scottish politics brought to you by political journalists on The Scotsman, Scotland on Sunday and the Edinburgh Evening News. It's launched today, and will take a wee while to build up a head of steam, but I hope you'll agree it's a great innovation for Scottish politics online.
Kenny Farquharson
Assistant Editor, SoS
132

Hugh Roscombe,

30/11/2008 12:32:49
£1,000,000,000,000? In Zimbabwean currency, that's 1,000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
133

Hugh Roscombe,

30/11/2008 12:34:47
watcher,

"Shir Shawn thinks the Saltire belongs him. Parasite hasn`t paid tax since he was a Milkman." says watcher checking his giro.

Actually he has. Any time he works in the UK, he pays tax, so yer talking pash as usual.
134

Normand,

France 30/11/2008 12:40:46
I not understand why any Scots want to leave the UK.

In Europe only the big boys matter; Sarkozy talks to Merkel and Brown, the rest do what they are told.

I like your "haggis" but to us you are still rosbifs as well.
135

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 12:42:46
Goldie continued: "It is time that the SNP grew up.....We are happy to be Scottish and British.

Is this the level of political argument the unionists have sunk to?

On a point of information for Ms Goldie, before the SNP broke through in the early 70s you couldn't get a Saltire in Scotland, they were only made in England and sold for ceremonial purposes, mainly to Government offices.

The rise of Scottishness and the resurgence of the Saltire are all down to the success of the SNP. If Goldie et al really are happy to be Scottish they should welcome a resurgent Saltire.
136

Hugh Roscombe,

30/11/2008 12:44:53
Normand (without the Wisdom)

Good trolling mate!
137

EnglishHighlander,

30/11/2008 12:47:12
St Andrew's day should be celebrated and rewarded with a bank holiday. St. Patrick's Day seems to be used as an excuse by the English, Welsh and Scots for a good p**s-up, so why not give the Scots something for St. Andrew's Day?

As for all this Nationalism, my only worry is that the antagonism between the two nations will get worse. I can see some people round my neck of the woods seeing it as a removal of the right of any English people to live in Scotland.

I don't want to move back to England, my wife and daughters (all Scottish) would probably send me back on my own. Could be a good thing. Lol!
138

Home Rule for England,

England 30/11/2008 12:48:33
Goldie says support for independence in Scotland is not growing! I don't know about that but it's growing in England. 57% at the last count want England to seperate from Scotland!
139

Islay Herald,

30/11/2008 12:53:06
Normand
You not understand. I not surprised. You French wrote the book on collaboration.
140

Scotfree,

Eskine 30/11/2008 13:03:00
If we take Troskiest Darling’s argument to it’s logical conclusion then he would have advocated independence for Scotland when the oil price rose. The truth is that is not Scotland’s but England’s financial base that would become highly unstable without the backing of Scotland’s oil for it out of control lending. Similarly the government’s macro-economic policy (big words from a Trotskiest lawyer Chancellor and professional historian PM) can hardly be described as highly successful, more an unmitigated disaster, leading Britain into the worst financial state of all western economies with the prospect of 3million unemployed, a banking system in tatters, with massive debts and the prospective of massive tax rises on employment and entrepreneurs at the very time that unemployment will be at it’s worst. This comes at the end of a period when the UK should have enjoyed the benefits of the largest rise in oil revenues in history. Unbelievable incompetence by a cabal of Troskiests, glorified history teachers and social workers who would never be employed in any major business or allowed access to any aspect of national security outside this disaster of a government.
Despite the sycophantic support of the press for this regime, this is truly the end game for the last remnants of the British Empire. They have reduced the English economy to the third league of European economies not even on a par with Spain and Italy, a situation that will only get worse over the next few years. They cannot seriously hope to hold on to their remaining nations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland when there own economy is in tatters (they can’t run themselves) dependant on the resources of its Scottish province to back up its massive debts. Each of these nations have nationalists governments who are well aware that the alternative to English rule is to play a full part and benefit from the economically stable and egalitarian prospect of economic development within the European Union. Irela
141

Scotfree,

Erskine 30/11/2008 13:03:52
cont
Ireland has enjoyed three times the Economic growth of Scotland (without oil) through this alternative over the last ten years and is now per capita nearly twice as wealthy as Scotland and would never consider returning to the slavish mastery of the Sterling zone.
142

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 13:14:57
#147 Normand writes:-
“I like your "haggis" but to us you are still rosbifs as well.”

Har de har de har.

You should confine your comments on this site to the quality of the latest Beaujolais.

Otherwise, you will appear to be somewhat of a clown
143

P Rayner.,

Latin America 30/11/2008 13:18:01
Quite why any government minister should indulge the SNP twerps is beyond me.Scottish independence is a non question in that independence,being unwanted, certainly isn´t going to happen. Issues of who is paying who or what is irrelevant. The Saltire this, the Saltire that is just junk.Who cares? What matters to most in Scotland and elsewhere is how to get hold of a few quid.
144

Normand,

30/11/2008 13:24:42
155

Is a serious point. Many French feel they belong to their local nation (Normandie, Bretagne). We have flags and symbols. But we are all French. Maybe that is why we run Europe?
145

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 13:29:04
Normand
Tu es un teton
146

Normand,

30/11/2008 13:36:22

We want no more silly little petty-states in Europe.

If Europe is to lead in the world, we need our big, strong countries to work together.

If tiny countries don't like it (like Irlande) we ignore them.
147

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 14:00:27
#151
Do you really think that France should be subsumed by your larger neighbour Germany?

Or do really hanker for England to take you over?

Perhaps you believe that China or Russia controlling your destiny would allow your country greater influence in the world sphere?

Or perhaps you are not really very bright?
148

Normand,

30/11/2008 14:17:42
152

Europe was made so the countries "subsume" each other - the Germans bring the money, we bring the brains (!)

Europe together means China, Russia, the Americains cannot tell us what to do.

And France is big and strong enough so that when my President speaks he is listened to.

Royaume-Uni is listened to as well. But no-one would hear your petit Ecosse.
149

TWC,

30/11/2008 14:22:31
143 Home Rule for England,

Certainly we need to each have our Fiscal Autonomy. The union has problems, policies which suit England do not suit Scotland and Vice Versa.
Labour's interference with Calman suggests that we will not get this autonomy so a lot of Union supporters in Scotland will vote for SNP and even Indepedndence.
There are a lot of New Labour poodles on here who simple post nonsense without any positive proposals but I can understand English concerns, especially the West Lothian question.
150

Queen D,

Glasgow 30/11/2008 14:28:05
And would they listen intently to les Anglais? Assuming that Royaume Uni went phutt?
151

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30/11/2008 14:30:03
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152

Fred Quimby,

Blos de Boulogne 30/11/2008 14:31:14
151 etc Normand ou Norman D?

Monsieur "Normand", vous vous prétendez Normand... vous êtes Normand comme mon "cul" écossais!

Connaissez-vous la France dans ses différences régionales, culturelles? La Corse, le Pays Basque, la Bretagne, l'Occitanie sont des régions qui luttent pour la reconnaissance de leur différences culturelles et linguistiques et demandent leur indépendance.

Je vous invite à mettre votre nez dans vos livres d'histoire pour comprendre la définition du mot "nation" qui n'est que l'expression politique de l'organisation d'un pays.

Autre point défaillant de votre argument, la France préside l'Europe depuis juillet 2008 jusqu'au 31 décembre 2008, car c'est une présidence tournante de 6 mois pour chaque pays européens, ce qui a été intitué par le traité de Maastrich, donc, la France n'a aucun mérite.

Monsieur, vous avez dans le cerveau 454 g de steak haché!!!!!

Je t'en cul

Faux Cu!
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Yr Awel,

Here & There 30/11/2008 15:39:28
125 sm7531/2
128 Fred Quimby

Thanks for the prize!!
But where's the substance to your claims?? I've raised a crucial question though... That of the future.

157 Fred Quimby

Congrats on your French, though it should "Faux cuL" at the end, hence eg "encuLé".
So Corsica (to say nothing of the other examples you have mentioned) is fighting for her freedom. But just WHO is fighting for freedom? So far as I know, only 17% of the 250,000-strong Corsican population voted for a Nationalist party the last time round. Which means a whopping 83% of the locals have other fish to fry.
Same old problem, really... You see little or no diversity where there actually is plenty!
You also say: 'Je vous invite à mettre votre nez dans vos livres d'histoire pour comprendre la définition du mot "nation" qui n'est que l'expression politique de l'organisation d'un pays.'
Thanks for the advice, but which history books are you talking about? Those that start from the premise the nation comes first and the state second, or those which take the opposite view? As Paul Valery (le roi de la soupe sétoise) has written: 'L'Histoire justifie ce que l'on veut'...
But there is hope for you. There is... As they say in the Midi, "un cou fa pas puto"... Que je traduirais librement par: "Errare humanum est".


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The Answer,

Glasgow 30/11/2008 15:44:57
Scotland 8% of the UK population!

Scotland 7% is the contribution of new full time university undergraduates 2008!

Scotland 11% consumption of UK social security expenditure!

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Scunnert,

30/11/2008 15:52:52
Goldie's remarks were not reported in full here. Her statements regarding the Saltire were really strange. For example:

"Instead of being a flag of separatism, the Saltire, which is incorporated into the Union flag, was a reminder of the Union, Goldie said."

tinyurl.com/6b7pmw


So our nation's flag is a reminder that we have been subsumed into the UK. Aye - Annabell - a proud Scot.
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Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 16:01:09
The leader of the Scots Tories is a bit late in her patriotic St. Andrew's Day assertion that her party has reclaimed the Saltire to give it back to Scotland?

Prior to their political wipeout in 1997, perhaps, just perhaps, IF the Scots Tories had grasped the thistle of recognising that the Saltire is indeed a highly visible part of the Union flag design and, instead of threaping the fag end of Empire Thatcherism down out throats, then things could have been completely different for her party today? You reap what you sow!
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Eve,

Scotland Bonnie Scotland 30/11/2008 16:20:16
Happy St.Andrews day everyone.

May there be many more of them.
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Scunnert,

30/11/2008 16:26:02
164 Eve

Thanks Eve - have a good one yersel.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 16:29:48
109 Aberdeenshire Scot,30/11/2008 10:59:10
118, 121

more odd bloviation from our resident obsessive poster. See you were on from 10.00am last night, **********************************************

Aberdeenshire Scot (PEE-STAINED PYJAMA MAN), the master of the 24 hour clock.
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Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 16:31:21
"61 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 27/11/2008 09:36:02
Rufus gives us his insight into the world of football:-
“What happened to Celtic last night?
1 point out of 54.
Dear oh Dear.”
He appears to know as much about football as he does about Scottish politics.
1 point out of 54?
In the Champions League Celtic have two points out of a possible 15.
I guess figures just aint Rufus’s thing."
****************************************************
Well BULLY WEE you were talking unadulterated garbage with this one.

Remember it?

The figure IS 1 point out of 54.

Still dispute it?

You not going to answer my question?
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Rufus T. Firefly,

30/11/2008 16:35:23
Oh dear, Aberdeenshire Scot old crocus, clearly all the excitement of St Andrews Day has caused this poor, lonely, incapacity benefit claiming 54 year old virgin's brain to get so hot it has boiled over, leaving his slack-jawed, fulminating, drooling mouth and manically twitching fingers to function as some kind of weird exhaust system, channelling the barely comprehensible content of his over-exicted melted cranium into the cyber ether.
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Eve,

Scotlandbonnie Scotland 30/11/2008 16:45:34
Has ALISTAIR Darling, confused St.Andrews day with Halloween. He's pure braw at making up the scarey stories.

Has Annabel Goldie confused what the apparent Scottish Conservitve party want with what the people of Scotland want.

Really was it really Annabel who said that they want to reclaim the Scottish Saltire from the SNP. I really thought she had more sence than that. I've never ever heard a member of the SNP claim that their pary owens the flag. Sure, they use the flag as part of their campaigns and in the celabrations. Theres nothing wrong with that.
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire (or Scotia Baltica) 30/11/2008 17:08:27
Here it is. My thoughts this St Andrew's day:

myweb.tiscali.co.uk/epochmag/
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Fred Quimby,

30/11/2008 17:57:26
#158
Yr Awel,
Here & There 30/11/2008 15:39:28

Why are you answering my riposte for someone else??

My post was to a wind up troll pretending to be French; as French as the famous French Taunter.

He has gone quiet but you have stepped in to fill the gap
However, thank you, Teacher, for marking my stinky inky but you certainly missed or misinterpreted more than one point.

Faux Cu does not have an L as it does not refer to un cul. It is my nom de plume elsewhere and should be pronounced in Glaswegian, Try saying it out loud several ties slowly.

A propos the 17% of Corsicans "fighting" for their freedom, because they did not vote for a nationalist party, I would not treat that as a trivial matter because ipso fact the other 83%have no interest in independence. That is an old chestnut that has a parallel in Scotland regarding the SNP, indpendence and devolution. Within the Unionist parties would bet there are a fair few who would vote for fiscal freedom but caw shy of complete political independence. Fighting and agitating they are, though not with bombs and guns like Spanish Euskadi. Independence has many facets and interpretation.

"Same old problem, really... You see little or no diversity where there actually is plenty!"

I really don't understand this bit as I do describe a plethora of diversity.

France was once famously described as an expression of Geography rather than a nation state, probably by some General or other.

I am sure that as a teacher you probably are aware that the concept of Frenchness was a construct from Paris to integrate the diversity, in one way by the establishment and application of a national common scholastic curriculum. This was supported by the treatment of teachers as, almost, state indentured labour moved from their home area to teach in distant area of France. The present day Gendarmerie are still the same and are moved around very quickly so that they do not become attached to any area and remain fidel
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Fred Quimby,

30/11/2008 17:59:50
they do not become attached to any area and remain fidele to Paris when putting down the revolting peasants.

Three wars with the Germans served to integrate France as a Nation more than any school curriculum.

As for Paul Valery, I do not understand your point? History was always been written by the victors or suvivors. Why you should tell me that he comes from Séte and likes soup is lost on me.

Finally my understanding of The Oc is reserved for robust reds but I can translate enough of "un cou fa pas puto" to understand its meaning. In Glasgow the version of this would involve a faint heart and a pig.

Why you needed that jibe tells me more about you than the rest of your unsolicited post.

Still as you say, to err is human and you are not divine.

Bisous du Midi


Faux Cu

and Faux Cough

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Normand,

30/11/2008 18:06:46
Some here have very good French.

But I want to be understood, so I will continue in English.

I do not understand why some in Scotland want to leave the UK. You seem to have a "good deal", I wish Normandie could have the same.

You say you are oppressed but Scots run the UK, no?

A little "wee" Scotland would be ignored in the EU. In France we understand this - we would ignore you.

These years the UK has been getting better at playing the game of Bruxelles - your Mr Mandelson was too good at it.
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bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 18:17:45
#168 Rufus
Unlike you apparently, I do have a life outwith posting upon the Scotsman web-sites.

I’m sure that those people employed in my business are rather pleased that this is the case.

However, in response to your somewhat simplistic and facile question regarding Celtic Football Club’s recent away record in European competition, I will ask only this;

Why do you believe that this is a reason to disparage the concept of Scottish Independence?

You may, or perhaps may not, be able to discern from my user-name, that I am not actually a supporter of that particular football club.

However, in this context, that is neither here nor there.
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Scimitar1,

30/11/2008 18:58:57
Too true Ms Goldie ,the EU supporting (faux) Nationalists Saltire wrapping is pure hypocrisy.
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 30/11/2008 19:05:42
192 Aberdeenshire Twot, still cant take it then, had to go crying to the moderator.
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Marian,

30/11/2008 19:05:49
It is wishful thinking of New Labour to claim that the SNP share of the vote increasing by 5000 in a tribal heartland of the New Labour party is somehow a rejection of the SNP.

If New Labour and its unionist acolytes had succeeded in forming the Scots Government in May 2007 the people of Scotland would have suffered swinging Council Tax increases this year and for the remainder of their so-called “Scottish Executives” tenure in office.

Opinion polls are now beginning to show that the tide is inexorably turning against New Labour despite the propaganda coming out of New Labour via its Pravda-esque mouthpieces such as the BBC etc.

This demonstrates once again that New Labour can only fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 30/11/2008 19:14:26
Aberdeenshire Twot, having responses deleted only examplifies what a weak , pathetic inadequate you are, stand your ground man.
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Miss H,

30/11/2008 19:15:22
2 This saltire thing really pi@@es me off.

You are spot on Fifi - the SNP does not have a copyright on the saltire.

Every political party can use the saltire.

So why don't they?

No-one is stopping them.
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Alan Reid,

Aberdeen 30/11/2008 19:18:58
care to comment on this story Rufus?

Cost of UK PFI schemes soars £27bn in a year, claim Nationalists


By Tom Peterkin
Scottish Political Editor
BRITAIN'S expected bill for the UK Government's Private Finance Initiative schemes has gone up by £27bn in less than a year, Scottish National Party MPs claimed yesterday.

At the time of Chancellor Alistair Darling's spring budget, PFI payments for financing public building projects between now and 2032 were expected to come to £188.6bn, the SNP claimed. According to the SNP's analysis, tables published as part of lastADVERTISEMENTMonday's Pre-Budget Report (PBR) now put the total at £216.1bn.

The figures were highlighted by Stewart Hosie, the SNP Treasury spokesman, who accused the Chancellor of "burying" the figures in the PBR. "We have always known that PFI was hyper-expensive, but it is clear that the liability is rocketing out of control," said Hosie, MP for Dundee East. "Labour has absolutely no financial credibility left. PFI is a millstone round the UK's neck."

He claimed that if the Treasury had to put the sums on to their own books it would add £216bn to the national debt.

"We had hoped the Pre-Budget Report would set out when and how the UK Government is going to bring PFI payments on to the books – instead we see the piles of secret debt mounting even higher."

The SNP has pledged to scrap PFI in Scotland, with First Minister Alex Salmond arguing that his alternative funding method, the Scottish Futures Trust, will create a cheaper alternative.

However, a lack of detail on how SFT would work has led to criticism of the scheme from Labour, who argue that uncertainty over the new mechanism has led to funding for schools and hospitals being left in limbo.

Leader of Scottish Labour Iain Gray denounced SFT as a "shambles", which has "created a hiatus in infrastructure projects in Scotland, undermining the construction industry".

A Treasury spokesman said of the SNP's claims: "These
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Alan Reid,

Aberdeen 30/11/2008 19:20:45
2

A Treasury spokesman said of the SNP's claims: "These figures grossly inflate the actual cost of PFI projects to the Government, as they have not been adjusted to reflect inflation. PFI has delivered good value for money, improved services, and it will continue to play a small but important part in overall procurement of public services."

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Islay Herald,

30/11/2008 20:03:00
186 Normand:
Here's a suggestion, since you evidently don't have a clue about Scotland; seeing as you are in Normandy why don't you take a day trip to the Calvados coast. Take a cold hard look at the war graves of all the thousands of Scots who died rescuing your country from foreign subordination. Then go to the Somme. Read up on your own fight for independence in the Hundred Years War, paying specific attention to the Battle of Bauge and the Scottish Expeditionary Force that fought alongside Jean D'Arc. You might then have a bit more understanding of what it is like to be free, and perhaps a bit more respect for this piffling 'wee' country that saved your ass on so many occasions.
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radge dug,

30/11/2008 20:04:23
How about selling Scottish beer and whisky at the St. Andrew's Day celebrations?

All i saw was Fosters and Millers and some English cac.
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 30/11/2008 21:49:41
apologies for spelling error above, meant now not know.
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/11/2008 21:50:45
221
"I am away know."

Yes, we know you are "away" now.
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donald,

glasgow 01/12/2008 03:26:56
Since when have the Onion Jack Alliance ever cared about the Saltire?
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Truely English,

01/12/2008 16:10:36
97
You say the English don't have any culture. The reason for tthat is the Scots have taken it all to enable us to all be British as we should be.

One small island with English and the English culture. Little wonder you are unable to say there is no English culture as both the Scots and the English share the same one.
English music and Scottish music are popular with all levels of British society.
We are one and the same; had that not been the case the various political parties would today be shouting out about the great divide, which they do not.
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Truely English,

01/12/2008 16:13:19
St Andrew is the Patron Saint of many countries and not just Scotland. There are many churches in England dedicated to St. Andrew and in Russia.
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George Coutts,

02/12/2008 01:23:00
I have an Idea that will help darling with his anti INDEPENDECE threat cuts.
Redirect the oilflow pipe to scotland also refine the gas before it goes south.
After all it will be done after THE PEPOLE OF SCOTLAND vote in droves for FREEDOM so to stop the slease and continual underminding from SODEM GEMORA oops! sorry LONDON OVERLORDS my darlings..
Merry Christmas to my fellow Scots.
Make your newyear reselution TO BE A NATION AGAIN.
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Home Rule for England,

England 02/12/2008 23:09:42
#97 Rab C Nesbit?

 

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