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'Sectarian jokes' put QC's job on the line



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Published Date: 14 January 2007
THE surroundings were almost as familiar as the wood-panelled walls of the High Court.
Before Donald Findlay QC were 140 passionate Rangers supporters from the Loyalist stronghold of Larne, Northern Ireland, and at his side were two Rangers legends, Willie Henderson and Andy Goram.

Like the former Rangers director, they had been booked to entertain the revellers, who had paid £22 each for the privilege of hearing their tales in April 2005. The hazy atmosphere, allied to the death of Pope John Paul II a week or so earlier, inspired one of Findlay's jokes. "It's very smoky in here," he was reported to have said. "Has another f***ing Pope died?"

There was reportedly an unprintable joke about a nun but, as Findlay's supporters point out, the Rev Ian Paisley was also a target for his humour that night.

Regardless, the allegedly anti-Catholic jokes were made public, and Findlay was again at the centre of media attention. The Faculty of Advocates, a body that does not encourage its members to court publicity, was distinctly unamused.

Eight months earlier, in August 2004, American journalist Franklin Foer published his book, How Soccer Explains The World - An Unlikely Theory Of Globalisation. Foer visited Scotland during his research, taking in an Old Firm game at Ibrox and meeting Findlay afterwards.

Foer writes that Findlay expressed regret he had not been more bullish in his own defence over the notorious sectarian songs incident in 1999. Findlay was fined £3,500 by the Faculty of Advocates and resigned as Rangers chairman after he was caught on video singing sectarian songs with supporters following a victory over Celtic.

Foer reported Findlay as saying that a suitable test for British citizenship could be: "If a troop carrying the Queen's colours doesn't bring tears to your eyes, then f*** off!"

Foer says Findlay posed a series of provocative rhetorical questions. "Are you not entitled to say that you have no time for the Catholic religion, that it involves the worship of idols?" he is reported to have asked. "Why can't you be forgiven for thinking that confessing to a priest who is confessing to God is ridiculous and offensive? Or that the Pope is a man of perdition?" he is said to have added.

It remains unclear what action, if any, the Faculty of Advocates took in the immediate aftermath of these reported comments. Two months after the Larne episode, Findlay resigned his post as chair of Faculty Services Ltd, the private company that looks after the business affairs of advocates. Precisely why he stood down remains a mystery.

However, independent of each other, two Scots made complaints to the Faculty. Tom Minogue, a retired Fife businessman, alleged Findlay's conduct in Larne and comments in Foer's book were not compatible with his role as a QC. Hugh Lynch, from Larbert, who retired in 1997 as rector of St Mungo's RC High School in Falkirk and had served as an assistant director of education, was also appalled by reports he read of the Larne incident.

The Dean of the Faculty, Roy Martin QC, and the body's complaints committee, agreed he was guilty of professional misconduct. It is understood Findlay was given the option of "putting his hands up" and paying a relatively modest fine.

Findlay, who is nothing if not a fighter, flatly refused and now faces prosecution at a formal disciplinary tribunal, which has the power effectively to finish his career.

Minogue was not available for comment, but Lynch said last night: "Sectarianism has to be wiped out in Scotland. Jack McConnell has described it as Scotland's shame and I do believe the Executive wants to bury that shame.

"He [Findlay] claims he has a right to free speech and is not a bigot, but by his own actions he condemns himself. What sort of role model does he provide for young lawyers or young Rangers fans? He should not be allowed to continue to bring an august body like the Faculty into disrepute."

Minogue petitioned the Scottish Executive in 2005 over Findlay's alleged conduct, claiming it was wrong for the QC to receive Legal Aid money.

Minogue claimed the public had the right to expect a Scottish advocate, particularly a QC, to behave in a "dignified and appropriate" manner in public, particularly outside Scotland.

Findlay responded at the time: "I have appeared and spoken at Celtic supporters' dinners, including one chaired by the local priest. I really don't want to say too much about this, other than that we are all actors.

"We play to the audience that we have. I often tell stories about my childhood, and every word is a lie, designed to entertain. The things I say at a sportsman's dinner should not be taken as the gospel according to Donald Findlay. I am playing a role.

"I do not accept the charge that I am racist or a bigot and I fear that Tom Minogue in due course will have to hear from my solicitors."

Highs and lows


Donald Findlay was born on March 17, 1951, in Cowdenbeath in Fife. He was educated at Harris Academy in Dundee, and at Dundee and Glasgow universities.

He became an advocate in 1975 and then was made a QC in 1988. He earns more criminal legal aid cash than any other Scottish advocate, making £300,000 a year.

Findlay has been a strong supporter of the Conservative Party and famously led the Think Twice campaign against Scottish devolution in 1997.

He has served as a defence lawyer in dozens of high-profile murder trials, including some of Scotland's most famous cases of recent years, such as that of Luke Mitchell, convicted of killing Jodi Jones in 2005.

The full article contains 960 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

scottwebb.co.uk,

14/01/2007 00:18:16

Again :)

2

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 14/01/2007 00:43:04

But .. Findlay said plenty about it at that party, and to the BBC in his bubbling interview ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/476302.stm so why the silence now ?

Consistency certainly isn't something to expect from the legal profession - other than deny deny deny .. and let's get our lads off the hook .. unless of course their face doesn't fit (a rare occasion indeed, but Raj Jandoo's case is a good example).

I've seen Advocates & lawyers get up to a lot worse than this .. the likes of which I cannot write about on the Scotsman forums ... but I'm sure, ultimately, Findlay will only get a slap on the wrist, if anything at all, on this one .. with his colleagues sitting in judgement on himn unless there is an irresistible urge to 'do as we say, not as we do' ..

Honestly, I've forgotten most of how the video went, other than the chants ... any clips of it on You Tube yet ?!

3

,

14/01/2007 00:51:13
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4

2dogs in D.C.,

learning more all the time 14/01/2007 00:51:15

Oh, yeah, now there's a can 'o worms. When will the "big folk" learn that EVERY THING they say in public is recorded? John Kerry tried to make a joke, and we know how that worked out.

5

scottwebb.co.uk,

14/01/2007 00:54:11
6

Dave M,

14/01/2007 00:59:33

Clown.

7

Thommo,

14/01/2007 00:59:36

"Are you not entitled to say that you have no time for the Catholic religion, that it involves the worship of idols?"

Of course you are.

Make jokes about the Pope or a nun or Ian Paisley (in front of a private audience where no-one was liable to be offended)? Of course you are. Both "traditional" and "alternative" comdeians have made many such jokes, before various audiences.

Whether such things are an offence for which the Faculty of Advocates might punish one of its members I couldn't say. Perhaps it might be better to more closely scrutinise what its members do in court, who knows?

8

wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 01:01:12

All he's done is crack a joke and voice opinions, it's not as if he's a child abuser.

9

Dave M,

14/01/2007 01:02:02

Findlay has been a strong supporter of the Conservative Party and famously led the Think Twice campaign against Scottish devolution in 1997.

Think twice?

10

Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 01:05:34

Why do you ask, 2 dogs?

Gordon - APART from the sectarian bit - most of your post at 6 COULD apply to your good self?

11

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 14/01/2007 01:07:02

# 3. BeachBoy, on the beach

Oh .. what he said is quite common in the realms of the 'big folk' & those who run Scotland ...

While the press get so uptight over christianity v islam, we have our own discrimination on our own doorstep .. http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=225&id=69662007 .. actually, that petition could be quite interesting to watch ..

There are plenty of us who don't have a problem with any religion, but the 'higher ups' in our society seem to thrive on bigotry, sectarianism & racism ... nasty stuff indeed.

Thanks for the link, Scott .. I was hoping for more of the actual video ... wonder if some kind person in tv can salvage it from archive footage & leak it ... I doubt the person who took the movie will though, as someone mentioned to me there was a contract put out over the actual filming ...

12

Cynical,

14/01/2007 01:10:02

#8.

Thommo, you'll never get away with that, you know.

Logic is an alien thought process in tabloid ridden, Labour's Scotland.

13

2dogs in D.C.,

learning more all the time 14/01/2007 01:16:16

#12-Bill- Maybe because i'm interested, and want to know? Again, it's really none of my beeswax, but I find it interesting how all our public figures keep managing to screw up time and again.

14

,

14/01/2007 01:20:53
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15

Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 01:23:11

2 dogs - I thought you'd read my message to you before Christmas. A reminder:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1905012006#new

Post 55 ;)

Best wishes!

16

Patrick from Hamilton,

Hamilton 14/01/2007 01:27:00

"Are you not entitled to say that you have no time for the Catholic religion, that it involves the worship of idols?" he is reported to have asked. "Why can't you be forgiven for thinking that confessing to a priest who is confessing to God is ridiculous and offensive? Or that the Pope is a man of perdition?" he is said to have added.

Do we all need to disagree with this , or just those in positions of influence ?

17

Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 01:28:42

Gordon - I DID say apart from the sectarian bit...

Note that you didn't deny the hunting and voting Tory bit! ;)

18

,

14/01/2007 01:39:19
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2dogs in D.C.,

learning more all the time 14/01/2007 01:44:53

Bill # 18- Don't ya know- I do, now , remember. But,nah, it's more to do with the hounds which now hound my life. Good to remember that old one anyway,thanks :-}

20

Wisnaeme,

Sent to Coventry, 14/01/2007 02:02:06

Ah thought ah was looking at a photo of Blunkett fer a minute,

That is how much interest I take in this regurgitated
trash. Blue nose or left foot bigotry? Is that the great sensational issue in today's Scotland or is it more recycled media drivel in which much ado about nothing much unexpectect receives gasps of amazement and outrage from the readership.

Bury it " Hootsmon" for most folk nowadays dinna care about some gobsh*te or other and their verbal bigotry.

Unless of course it's a wee distraction from more important public matters of this time and place by loyal,concerned and perhaps outraged "Hootsmon" apparatchnics.

21

Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 02:11:46

Gordon :)

22

,

14/01/2007 02:18:56
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,

14/01/2007 02:23:19
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Bill, Dunblane,

14/01/2007 02:41:15

27 - Brian

That's easy for you to say (or type?) :)

But you are quite right.

25

Faye,

Scotland 14/01/2007 02:55:09

Och the man was having a laugh. Too PC - what's the fuss about. Role model for younger solicitors? What a lot of toss.

26

Jer,

atlanta, ga 14/01/2007 04:37:00

ANYONE who believes in invisible sky gods -- of any flavor -- in this day and age ought to be forgiven for their folly by smarter folks. (father, son, holy ghost... pile ay pi$h)

27

MalcolmGG,

14/01/2007 04:40:51

This article has been linked from wallow.wallow, that nest of introspective Protestantism aka "Rainjurs enlightenment".

Watch out for the monosyllabic denial from the "mock offended Loyal".

"Loyal bears ar n'Embra furra skoosh'n'rat"

Bears.
Hilarious.

28

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14/01/2007 04:50:32
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,

14/01/2007 04:59:36
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,

14/01/2007 05:29:17
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14/01/2007 05:33:05
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Sunshine Charlie,

Capetown 14/01/2007 05:46:01

The man is a muppet

33

,

14/01/2007 05:49:04
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34

The Daleks,

14/01/2007 06:09:55

Is Donald Findlay a QC, or a stand-up comedian?

He should choose one or the other, as the two don't sit well together.

Quite frankly, I was amazed when I found out about his wee earner on the side.

He should save the "dubious jokes job" til after his retirement.

35

,

14/01/2007 07:09:52
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,

14/01/2007 07:36:47
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,

14/01/2007 07:48:32
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38

Pocket Dictionary,

14/01/2007 07:55:39

........and the media and regulating bodies totally ignore Scottie McClue a Talk 107 presenter calling for women who get pregnant outside of marriage to be taken to the town square and stoned (Talk 107 04/01/07 10pm - 1am).
What happened to the safer Scotland campaign

39

Tucker,

14/01/2007 08:20:37

I'd have laughed at the joke about the smoke, and I'd like to hear the ones about the nun and Paisley before deciding whether Mr Findlay is guilty of anything.

40

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14/01/2007 08:26:09
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,

14/01/2007 08:32:15
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,

14/01/2007 08:34:57
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43

michael campbell,

ross-shire 14/01/2007 08:58:55

Donald Findlay was hired to entertain and that is what he does.

Anyone who says they are offended is I believe a hypocrite.No one should give a hoot if a joke has a religious overtone or not .Its a joke for goodness sake.

At any rate The Faculty of Advocates require a proof level of beyond all reasonable doubt to support a compliant and no one in all honesty could say that Mr Findlay has offended.

44

Honestly,

Paisley 14/01/2007 09:01:13

For all the MOPE's who have a sectarian agenda. Why not look up Tom Minogue on any search engine, for a real bigot.

This man is offended by anything remotely Protestant, Rangers or non Catholic. For people like him to call people intolerant, when he supports the segregation of children and teaching staff in our schools, is astounding.

Are the RC zealots now so offended by everything in life, that they run to the big bad PC policeman and complain.

Get a life Minogue!

45

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14/01/2007 09:01:48
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46

Jim McD,

Edinburgh 14/01/2007 09:05:40

It is a sad reflection of Scottish society that people are so sensitive that they are offended by what is an amusing quip. I suspect they would not have been offended if a visiting Cardinal had quipped same at a social function. This is symptomatic of what I would call the 'Garvaghy Road' syndrome ie people go out of their way to be offended a la the late Mary Whitehouse and 'dirty' TV programmes. Ignore the snipers, bully boys and political-correctees-gone-mad, Donald - we are still living in a free country despite the views of some of the respondents to this article.

47

Joemac,

Motherwell 14/01/2007 09:08:30

Would you employ Findlay to defend you? You'd be better with The Big Man from Chewin' the Fat. Those on legal aid don't get a choice. £300k from the state - thirty bob from the private sector I'd think.

48

Dukie,

Glasgow, England 14/01/2007 09:12:00

Good point Jim McD #49

I wonder if the 'offendees' would knock back Mr Findlays professional services if they ever found themselves in the dock at The High Court?

I think not.

49

Emac,

14/01/2007 09:19:51

My God,will this clown tom minogue want to ban people from watching comedy,telling jokes and having a life next.If people are bigots for having an opinion then we are living in a very sad world,the P.C gone mad world.

50

Phil241106,

Airdrie 14/01/2007 09:25:23

All of this is so simple.
There is not one offensive word or one offensive song or offensive phrase that Scots don't know or recognise as such.
Anyone who offers any one of them to another, individually or in company, commits an offence and portrays themself as a social irritant at best or a bigoted, abrasive undesirable at worst whose continued appearance in public should be sesverely curtailed.

51

Emac,

14/01/2007 09:41:13

#53.
The guy told a joke! as to make people laugh,fun i belive it is called.Like did you hear the one about the Scotsman ,Englishman and the Irishman......Opps ,sorry is that been a bigot.

52

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 09:51:38

The witch-hunt of Donald Findlay demonstrates how illiberal and judgmental are those who portray themselves as being the complete opposite.

The knee-jerk response to any criticism of or humour directed against one side of Scotland’s religious-political divide involves endless repetition of the words ‘bigot’ and ‘sectarian’ in lieu of an argument. Precisely who decides what amounts to ‘bigotry’ or ‘sectarianism’? Well, according to coverage by the Scottish media, members of the Roman Catholic Church have assumed the sole right to define these terms as they see fit.

Those Scots who do not practise the Romish faith have no comparable right, it would appear, to complain about the aggressive triumphalism displayed by the late Cardinal Winning in his comment that ‘Scotland will be a Catholic country fifty years after my death’ or about his call for the religious segregation of nursery schools. We must remain silent in the face of Cardinal O’Brien’s request to his flock to produce as many children as possible lest they ‘be taken over by immigrants’. We are not permitted to take offence at O’Brien’s ludicrous ‘punch a pape’ soundbite or the propaganda emanating from Peter Kearney of the Scottish Catholic Media Office, which included the lie that the Celtic goalkeeper was cautioned for making the ‘sign of the cross’.

Freedom of speech – at least from one particular direction – is under grave threat in Scotland.

Incidentally, Findlay’s joke about the smoky atmosphere had already been told on a Radio 4 programme to gales of laughter from the audience and an absence of outrage in the media.

53

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14/01/2007 09:55:54
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,

14/01/2007 09:58:45
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Joel,

14/01/2007 10:00:06

This man is excellent at his job - not a given in the criminal lawyer profession - leave him alone!

56

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14/01/2007 10:06:13
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57

Alex.,

14/01/2007 10:12:09

Has the population of Scotland turned into a bunch of sensitive wee softies? If Roman Catholics want to complain about a QC cracking a joke perhaps other denominations should complain about the religious segregation taking place in the education system. Now that is worth complaining about. People in glass houses ........

58

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14/01/2007 10:13:49
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59

radical theologian,

california 14/01/2007 10:14:10

This kind of thing happens because Scotland (unlike other countries) has no clear definition of what it means by 'freedom of speech'. Politicians could have a proper debate on that rather than trying to change things by singling out individuals all the time.

60

Disgusted of,

Renfrewshire 14/01/2007 10:18:44

I wonder if those people here who are calling Donald Findlay a bigot have actually sat and listened to one of his after dinner speeches as I have, rather than just accept second-hand reports where a couple of comments from a 40min speech are taken out of context? The man is a very funny orator who spends most of the time during his speeches taking the mickey out of the stereotypical Scottish psyche including both sides of the sectarian problem, and (most importantly) ... himself. Findlay is undoubtedly a very intelligent man, who probably feels that the Roman Catholic Church is not for him and defends his right to say so. Surely the freedom to do so is what all Non-Roman, Christian churches are founded upon. Does that make him a bigot? If so, then it follows that all Non-Roman, Christian churches must be filled with bigots because their members wish the right to freedom of religion and choose to worship God in their own way. Is this what we are really saying? That the wee wummin' with her good hat and coat on every Sunday, going to the West Kirk for the 11 o'clock service must be a bigot because she wants to be a Christian but not a Roman Catholic one?

Surely Findlay's joke was more about the smoke rather than the death of the Holy Father? He wasn't exactly shouting, "Rejoice and rub yer haun's th'gither - he's deid". And let's face it, there have been jokes about nuns and bars of soap going around for years. Wake up people.

It seems that the issue here is that the establishment wants to make an example out of high profile people (especially non-Labour ones) to make it look like their New-Labour, hip-policy is working.

There is undoubtedly a big sectarian problem in Scotland and especially over here in the west, but Donald Findlay (who makes some cracking jokes at the expense of Rangers FC, The Church of Scotland and The Orange Lodge when he speaks at Celtic Supporters dinners) would not be at the top of my hit list when

61

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 10:18:49

#62 Blairs

Can you provide definitions of the words 'bigotry' and 'sectarianism' that will not impinge upon freedom of thought, speech or expression?

62

Shug,

UK 14/01/2007 10:19:22

His comments were made at a private function, and unless anyone there took offence it is best left alone. Personally I would be more concerned about some of the nonsense being spouted on this site by Scottwebb and Cherbi. Tosh.

63

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14/01/2007 10:31:31
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64

Bibendum,

of no importance so why ask ? 14/01/2007 10:34:22

Does the European convention on human rights not stipulate that everyone is entitled to 'privacy in their personal & private lives' ?

Surey Mr Findlay is entitled to the same right of privacy as everyone else.

Had he made the remarks refered to in his capacity of a QC then this debate may be valid however he did not.

The same act also entitles every one the right to earn a living, yet many on here wish to deprive Mr Findlay of TWO of his basic human rights.

A Scottish witchhunt in the year 2006 ! It's long past time this country grew up.

65

happysnail,

Stirling 14/01/2007 10:41:27

64 I am not saying that is ok to burn embassies. What I am saying is, that RCs have been the butt of jokes for years, and it was perfectly acceptable, (not by most RCS). In this age it is offensive to Moslems that their religion is used as a caricature or a joke, they went to the extremes and burnt Danish Embassies and so on.
A person in the position of an advocate and taking money from the public purse, should not be in the business of entertaining "football supporters", in the north of Ireland or anywhere else for that matter.

66

roberto,

14/01/2007 10:41:55

of course nobody else in the entire world told a joke or laughed at a joke about the pope around that time

67

Boberto,

14/01/2007 10:43:17

I see Cardinal O'Brien's "punch a pape" nonsense and his dubious way with statistics are being rehashed as well as this, in the story linked to above that we can't comment on.

We could use the Cardinal's own methods to suggest that Roman Catholics, who make up only around 15% of the population, commit 31% of the cases of sectarian abuse and violence.

68

Lumber Jack,

Fife 14/01/2007 10:45:57

First of all, Alex No61 brings up that old chestnut about Catholic schools, a typical ploy of the anti-Catholic brigade. To him and others like him I say go and read the history of Catholic schools in Scotland before making ill judged comments.
Secondly, I know Tom Minogue and he is a man with a bee in his bonnet regarding Masons and any other subject that lights his fire, e.g. a new river Forth crossing and if he was to tell me today is Sunday I’d be checking my calendar.
As for Donald Findlay, I am probably one of the few people contributing who has attended a dinner where he spoke and I heard nothing that I considered offensive or anti-Catholic. He did tell a few anti Rangers jokes, something the newspapers don’t report.
Yes in the past he did make a mistake in singing sectarian songs but who among us hasn’t? Let’s not forget that most if not all Scottish newspapers continue to print anti-Catholic /anti-Irish stories in their sports sections.
Finally Donald Findlay was the Vice Chairman of Rangers not the Chairman as reported in the above story. If they can’t get the basic facts correct then what hope is there that the rest of the story is being reported accurately!

69

Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 10:47:53

Maybe in an independent Scotland Findlay wouldn't get his sticky mitt into the public purse. Then he can promulgate his brand of anachronistic sectarianism on a full time basis to the knuckledraggers that make up his audience.

70

british and proud,

uk 14/01/2007 10:50:56

apartheid schools (rc) is scotlands shame abolish them now bjk. if you want roman catholic schools pay for them yourself not the taxpayer

71

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14/01/2007 10:57:37
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JG,

Fife 14/01/2007 11:04:14

#74 Lumber Jack
So anyone who complains about having Catholic Schools is an anti-Catholic bigot? Do you not think they might just be anti-wasting money? I couldn't care less if you worship the sun god, but surely the best thing is to have a school where children are taught well - forget religion.

73

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14/01/2007 11:05:00
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,

14/01/2007 11:05:01
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75

Monki,

14/01/2007 11:06:30

Bad spelling I know, but it is annoying but who cares what has been said and by whom. Get over it for that is life

76

SILVANA,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 11:07:26

If Mr Findlay is such a high earner, why does he need to earn more money working as an entertainer or does he dontate his earnings to a charity? (£22.00 per ticket).

77

Boberto,

14/01/2007 11:08:14

Are Catholics near Middlesbrough really so humourless?

78

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 11:09:17

#75 Pete

Of course, if the word 'knuckledraggers' was used to describe members of Scotland's RC community claiming to be of Irish ancestry, the person responsible would immediately be accused of 'anachronistic sectarianism' at best and, arguably, a lot worse besides.

It is interesting to note that the independent Scotland you envisage would apparently curtail an individual's right to earn a living purely on the basis that his views don't meet with your approval.

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14/01/2007 11:09:47
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Peter,

Kirkcudbright 14/01/2007 11:10:18

At a Christmas party our local catholic parish priest ended up with an orange party hat - his comment, 'It will take more than a party hat to convert me.' Should I report him to his bishop for sectarianism?

No - we all had a good laugh as the joke was clearly at the expense of sectarians and PC mealy mouthers!

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14/01/2007 11:10:19
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Giffnock Tim,

14/01/2007 11:17:42

I don't have a problem with Findlay's stuff at an after dinner speech. I suspect most Catholics could happily laugh at the smoke joke. Analysing every joke at an after dinner speech is anal and people who are looking to take offence will always find something.
Don't get me wrong. Findlay was bang out of order with singing of Hello Hello a few years back but it's now become a witchhunt.

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14/01/2007 11:21:29
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14/01/2007 11:28:27
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Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 11:29:51

Ally Scott # 84

That free speach argument is always used by individuals when they want to justify unpalatble attitudes. When Findlay makes his sectarian diatribes under the guise of humour to self-selecting audiences his intention is to make his secratian attitudes mainstream. To reinforce sectarianism when it is widely perceived as invalid and illegal is senseless.

It's odd that you should object to the word "knuckledragger" when it is reflected at sectarians. How would you describe sectarians?

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Lumber Jack,

Fife 14/01/2007 11:39:09

78 JG Fife.
Show me where I say “anyone who complains about having Catholic Schools is an anti-Catholic bigot”?
Are you trying to insinuate that children attending Catholic schools are not taught well?

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14/01/2007 11:43:44
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14/01/2007 11:44:26
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Socrates470BC,

14/01/2007 11:53:42

If the Scottish Executive were serious about ending sectarianism, then they would start in the Schools.

It is absolute nonsense to split up young kids and put them into special groups defined by their parents religion. Until this ends we will have state sponsored sectarianism. Any action taken by the executive against sectarianism, whilst they still support sectarianism in schools will be seen as utter hypocrysy.

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Alasdair Roy,

Aberdeen 14/01/2007 11:56:28

This looks like shaping up to be a major test case on free speech. Granted it's in the Disciplinary Tribunal of the Faculty of Advocates and not in a Court per se, but it will have ramifications in wider society and it may even end up in the Courts. Such a test case will always be in an area of controversy and bad taste. Better to have the boundaries set out here, where with Findlay's eloquence and undoubted ability there is a chance of free speech winning. The alternative might be a test case involving perhaps a mad mullah or crazy imam where free speech would almost cetainly lose.

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dylan,

14/01/2007 12:00:10

freedom of expresson??

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14/01/2007 12:01:53
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Disgusted of,

Renfrewshire 14/01/2007 12:02:05

#95 ThePeter

Did Donald Findlay say, "I hate Catholics"? or did he simply tell a joke about the papal smoke and then tell a joke about Ian Paisley? It's obvious who the bigots are here - it's the ones who put words into other people's mouths.

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14/01/2007 12:03:27
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Brian,

14/01/2007 12:03:54

A large part of this thread reflects how comfortable and at ease Scotland sits with its centuries old anti-Catholicism.
The thread also reveals the unease and angry discomfort, coupled with denial, that results when Scotland's dark side is exposed, particularly when projected onto, or observed by, an international and world wide audience.
Long may this continue as this exposure of anti-Catholic bigotry is ultimately healthy as it is necessary for its eventual eradication.

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14/01/2007 12:10:17
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Ally Scott,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 12:11:21

#92 Pete

What may be an 'unpalatable attitude' to you may be the sincere belief of someone else. As mentioned in post #56, I find many of the attitudes and beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church unpalatable, yet I do not call for censorship.

How on earth can Findlay be accused of making his sectarian attitudes 'mainstream', when he appears in front of 'self-selecting' audiences? It is not as if he has been given a comedy series on TV or radio!

As others on this thread have mentioned, his comedy routine is not directed solely at the RC Church and his remarks have been taken out of context and sensationalised. Many other after-dinner speakers come away with much worse than he is being accused of and I fear that the political-media establshment witch-hunt of this individual is deeply regrettable and speaks volumes for the state of McConnell's Scotland.

The terms 'knuckledragger' and 'sectarians' are purely subjective and amount to little more than terms of abuse.

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wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 12:15:33

102
A large part of this thread reflects how sick and tired people are of the non stop whining and complaining from elements among RCs.
If Protestants complained about every every remark by RCs in the media, every slogan painted on their walls, every time they, or their children were addressed by the H word, or had "Animals" chanted at them by hooped drunks the courts would clog up in a day.

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Blairs,

The Maghreb 14/01/2007 12:17:55

To AM and Ally I believe that the existence of religious sects leads to bigotry.

All you are doing is creating artifical differences. If sectarianism is your bag well, I guess that is up to you. However, the rest of the population shouldn't have to be exposed to it or be expected to listen patiently whilst we have the virtues of sectarianism espoused to us. What are the virtues of sectarianism, out of curiosity?

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GrahamH,

14/01/2007 12:19:18

Incredible that people above defend his position in this century. Some genuinely seem to believe he does no harm, they are not just posturing!

Rangers FC make no genuine attempt to stamp out sectarianism, nor do the police. I attended a RFC match as a corporate guest ( I am a Hearts fan) and I was in middle of season ticket stand. The anti catholic songs, shouts etc were disgusing. The police and security were in midst and smiling along!

With video evidence we could make a huge inroad to stamp this out, detailed pictures available of those leading this are easily available at a minor cost.

Why does his old club not do something genuine to stamp this out in sectarian heartland, Ibrox.

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Socrates470BC,

14/01/2007 12:21:08

Do you want any politician, policeman, or religious leader in this country to tell you what you can say and what you can think? If they can tell you what you cannot say and cannot think then they are very close to being able to control your thoughts and actions. Is that the kind of society you want to belong to?
In many cases offence is taken when none is offered.
Read the book ‘a course in miracles’ it will ask you to find an object in a room, a table or a chair maybe. You will then be asked “what does that object mean?” The truth is that the object has no meaning, only the meaning that you choose to give it. The same is true in how we react to what other people say. How you interpret what was said and how you react is up to you. Do you really have the power to tell me what I can and cannot say? Nothing has any meaning except the meaning that we choose to give it.
The Dali Lama was at a birthday party when someone came up to him and started off a torrent of abuse directed at the Dali Lama (DL). DL looked at him bemused and let him continue. When the man was finished DL looked at him and asked
If I came to your birthday party bearing a gift and offered you that gift and you refused to accept that gift, who would be left holding the gift? The man answered “you would be left holding the gift”.
DL then asked “if you come to me offering hatred and abuse, and I refuse to accept it, who is left with the hatred and abuse?”
We do not have to accept or agree with what people say, and unless you want to live in a totalitarian state, we should support everyone’s right to say what they want. Without freedom of speech there is no freedom.

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wayne bijlyeerheid,

14/01/2007 12:23:18

103
I think you are just trying to change the point, I am not surprised with what is in the public arena re. priestly abuse.
I doubt you know any more of Freemasonry's initiations than I do.
I didn't ask them to film the nun's initiation I suspect it was another propaganda attempt, to show us how cuddly catholicism is, that went wrong.
I don't know anything about Jehovah's Witnesses, I didn't even know he'd had an accident.

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Blairs,

The Maghreb 14/01/2007 12:25:03

Just sitting watching what is going on in Palestine, this internicine strife with Fatah and Hamas killing each other is a classic example of the "fruits" of sectarianism.

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Lamberts Teef,

14/01/2007 12:26:18

Donald Findlay says:

"Are you not entitled to say that you have no time for the Catholic religion, that it involves the worship of idols?" he is reported to have asked. "Why can't you be forgiven for thinking that confessing to a priest who is confessing to God is ridiculous and offensive? Or that the Pope is a man of perdition?" he is said to have added.

Now whether you agree or disagree with him, he must have the right to his opinion. It is not sectarianism to dislike Catholicism (or any other religion for that matter) just as it is not sectarian to say Protestantism is ridiculous and the CoS Moderator is "a man of perdition".

It seems in modern Scotland that the label "bigot" is thrown towards those with whom you disagree with. It is simple and effective, gives the illusion of self-righteousness, but is also dangerous to free speech because it tries to cut debate at the roots.

Notice already here, anyone wanting to even just mention separate schooling is immediately called a bigot. Separate schooling may be good or bad for Scotland, but to even discuss it openly and intelligently is in itself bigotry.

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Pete,

Paisley 14/01/2007 12:26:30

Ally Scott # 104

His attitudes become mainsteam because his audience think that's the way people like them should think. They are then promulgated more widely within the community.
I suspect that the term "sectarian," "denoting, concerning, or deriving from a sect or sects," is arrived at from the context as you suggest. To describe someone as a "knuckledragger" has always been acceptable as long as it was not directed at your sect, yes or no? Let's try "less evolved?"
Donald Findlay is not Chubby Brown; Findlay purports to be a pillar of the Scottish establishment, that is why his attitudes are perceived as important.

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John Huss,

Glasgow 14/01/2007 12:28:56

The real issue here is that the PC brigade will not tolerate any especially those in high positions who stray from the "party line".

Donald Finlay is entitled to his opinions but not according to these "intellectual fascists" who are apalled that someone has the audacity to express their own views on issues that our nation has problems dealing with.

In Jack McConnell's Scotland the real shame is that we cannot have an informed debate about issues that many are too scared to voice for fear of retribution from the PC brigade.

The biggest contribution to Scotland's sectarian shame is the refusal to debate the real issue of apartheid that exists in our education system where 16% of Scotland's population can say or do anything they like without fear of retribution.

In today's "free" Scotland Protestant = bigot whereas Roman Catholic = nice moderate person

Is the block catholic vote that represents less than 20% of Scotland's electorate really that important to our politicians in that they are now prepared to ostracise anyone who expresses an opposing view?

Wake up and smell the coffee Scotland.