Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Scotland's best: Bannockburn, Bond or Baxter?

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date:
30 July 2006
IT WILL pitch Robert the Bruce's routing of the English at Bannockburn against Archie Gemmill putting the Dutch defence to the sword with his silky World Cup skills.
What's your favourite moment from Scots history?

Take part in Scotland on Sunday's own poll in one of three ways:

1. Leave comments below

2. Email your submission to editor@scotlandonsunday.com

or

3. Post your submission to:

Scottish Moments,

Scotland on Sunday,

108 Holyrood Road,

Edinburgh EH8 8AS

The emotional reopening of the Scottish Parliament after 300 years may have to fight against Sean Connery swaggering on to the big screen as James Bond and alerting the world to the nation's suave and sexy manhood.

A major TV series to be broadcast later this year will set out to find the greatest events in Scottish history. Viewers will be asked to nominate their most important moments and then vote for them in a nationwide poll.

Great battles will compete with feats of engineering, culture, intellectual thought and politics for the top slot, although seminal sporting moments will not be forgotten.

The producers want to find out which events have captured the imagination to the extent that they are ingrained as part of the national identity.

This means key dates such as the victory at Bannockburn in 1314, and the Act of Union in 1707 will be compared with the publication of a work of literature or a major achievement in the sporting arena.

The series, with a budget in excess of £100,000, will be kick-started by TV promotions asking viewers to send in their nominations. Three half-hour programmes in November will use on-screen champions - celebrities and historians - to make their case for 30 key events. Viewers will then be encouraged to vote for their favourites online.

The series will culminate in a one-hour studio debate among a seven-strong panel of Scotland's leading historians, chaired by Professor Tom Devine on St Andrew's Night (November 30), when the winner will be revealed.

Events already certain to feature strongly are the Wars of Independence, in the late 13th and early 14th centuries, the 18th-century publication of the works of Robert Burns, the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath, and the 16th-century Reformation.

Les Wilson, the creative director of Caledonia TV, which is making the series for BBC Scotland, said: "We want to generate a public debate about the 10 things you really should know about if you are living in Scotland. It is a way of stimulating discussion and debate about Scottish history."

The programme will follow a similar format to other blockbuster series in which the public has played a major part, including Restoration, about neglected buildings, and Greatest Britons, in which viewers voted for Winston Churchill as the towering figure of British history.

Scotland's History: The Top 10, to be presented by Neil Oliver, the archaeologist who fronted the BBC's Two Men in a Trench, also follows concern that Scottish history has been downgraded on the school curriculum.

However, historians, politicians and writers - in a snapshot poll conducted by Scotland on Sunday - believe the programme will perform an important role in redefining Scottish identity.

Professor Tom Devine, the Sir William Fraser chair of Scottish history at Edinburgh University, said: "It will be up to the audience to decide, but I am looking forward to the debate.

"It should be a dynamic discussion and I suspect the Wars of Independence, with the likes of Wallace and Bruce to the fore, will be up against the great thinkers of the Enlightenment, such as Hume and Smith. There are bound to be more modern achievements thrown in for good measure."

Dr Allan MacInnes, holder of the Burnett-Fletcher chair of history at Aberdeen University, who will also sit on the studio panel, said: "This is a great idea. It is a little bit like the X Factor applied to history. It will hopefully show that television can educate and inform rather than just entertain.

"I suspect the Wars of Independence, the Reformation and the Treaty of Union to be the three biggest topics nominated, but there's no guessing what the public could vote for."

Ian Rankin, the Edinburgh-based author of the Rebus detective novels, named Scotland's 3-2 victory over England in 1967 - when Jim Baxter dominated Wembley - among his top Scottish moments.

He said: "That win was important because it re-established Scottish football, particularly after England's victory in the 1966 World Cup. It was nice to have a laugh at England's expense."

Rankin added: "On a personal level, the building of the Forth Bridge was hugely important. It is a fantastic Scottish monument."

He also cited Connery's first appearance as 007 in Dr No (1962) as a pivotal moment in the nation's cultural history.

"It showed that Scots were sexy and suave and gave us an international film presence."

Sport figured prominently in the suggestions of Margo MacDonald, the Independent MSP for the Lothians. She said: "Archie Gemmill's goal (1978) has got to be right up there. Football runs through Scottish veins and that goal showed, and still shows today, that Scotland has style and commitment.

"Allan Wells' winning of the gold medal in the 100 metres at the Moscow Olympics has also never been surpassed."

Politics figured strongly in the choices of MSP Wendy Alexander, which included the creation of the NHS and the Scotland Act which ensured a devolved parliament for Scotland in 1999.

She said: "Overnight, the NHS removed the fear of the costs associated with illness for millions of Scots. The Scotland Act restored a parliament to Scotland and it is rare to make such a fundamental constitutional change without conflict or violence."

Wilson suspects there will be wide differences of opinion between viewers and the history professionals. "You never know what the public might come up with," he said.

A BBC Scotland spokeswoman added: "We see this programme as a really good way to raise awareness of Scottish history and to generate debate around it in a form that has a serious purpose but also leaves room for a bit of fun."

Verdict of the great and good


Andrew Marr
Broadcaster and former BBC political editor

Joint 1st: The Battle of Bannockburn (1314) and the Declaration of Arbroath (1320): "You have to have the idea as well as the military victory."
||6968|| Philosopher David Hume's refusal, on his deathbed in 1776, to give up his beliefs: "He had reshaped western thought and his friends thought he would recant when he was dying of cancer. He didn't."
||6766|| The Disruption of 1843, when one third of the Church of Scotland broke off to form the Free Church, in protest at state interference in the Kirk. "It was a fantastically important moment and one of the first times people gave up their salaries on a point of principle.
||65
64|| The Battle of Flodden Field, 1513: "With the death of James IV, Scotland lost its last great king and with it any genuine opportunity of a rich and long lasting Scottish renaissance."
||6362|| The publication of Hugh MacDiarmid's Drunk Man Looks at the Thistle (1926): "Although he is terribly unfashionable and was daft and politically inconsistent, he is Scotland's greatest modern poet."

Margo MacDonald

Independent MSP for the Lothians.

||5958|| Archie Gemmill's goal in Scotland's 3-1 victory over Holland in the 1978 World Cup.
||57
56|| Robert the Bruce's victory at Bannockburn.
||5554|| Allan Wells winning gold in the 100m at the Moscow Olympics in 1980.
||53
52|| Alexander Fleming's discovery of penicillin, 1928.
||5150|| Scottish independence? "The best is yet to come."

Professor Tom Devine

Sir William Fraser Chair of Scottish History, University of Edinburgh, and author of The Scottish Nation

||47
46|| The Wars of Independence, 1286-1314. "They were basic to the building of the nation and prevented the conquest of Scotland by England."
||45
44|| The Reformation: "It ensured the modern religious identity of modern Scotland."
||4342|| The Union of Scotland and England, 1707: "Whatever one's political view, there can be no doubt that a long-term relationship with England was vital to the framework that helped Scots have a huge impact throughout the world."
||41
40|| The Scottish Enlightenment, 1740-1790: "Scots had a huge intellectual influence not only in Europe but across the world."
||3938|| The First World War: "Per head of population more Scots combatants died than any other nation, and the legacy remains with a war memorial in every town. It symbolised the watershed between the success of the 19th century and the depression of the 1920s and 1930s, resulting in the decline of Scotland's heavy industries."

Dr Louise Yeoman

Historian and author of Reportage Scotland: Scottish History in the Voices of Those Who Were There.

||35
34|| Robert the Bruce's victory at Bannockburn, 1314.
||33
32|| The Vikings' triumph over Eoganan, the Pictish king, in 839, which encouraged the Scots to fight. "If that hadn't happened we might still be living in Pictavia."
||3130|| Chepman and Myllar print the first books in Scotland, 1508.
||29
28|| The abdication of Mary Queen of Scots, 1567.
||2726|| James VI and the Union of the Crowns, 1603. "It is significant because that was when we got into bed with the Elephant [England]."

Ian Rankin

Author of the Rebus novels

||23
22|| Scotland beating England 3-2 at Wembley in 1967.
||21
20|| The publication of Lanark by Alasdair Gray, 1981. "It was the greatest Scottish novel since Sir Walter Scott, and encouraged a lot of us who were thinking of becoming writers."
||1918|| The building of the Forth Bridge, 1883-1890.
||17
16|| Allan Wells winning gold in the 100m at the Olympics, 1980.
||1514|| Sean Connery's first appearance as James Bond in Dr No, 1962.

Wendy Alexander

Labour MSP and former Executive minister

||11
10|| The arrival of St Columba in Iona, 563. "It was the start of Christianity."
||9
8|| The Act of Union, 1707.
||76|| The Scottish Enlightenment.
||5
4|| The creation of the National Health Service, 1948.
5 The Scotland Act, 1998.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 31 July 2006 4:12 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

redbraes exile,

Sunbury, Victoria, Australia 30/07/2006 01:36:36

The wars of Independance culminating at the battle of Bannockburn against English domination must surely be the most important events in Scottish history.

2

Scottish Unionist,

30/07/2006 04:05:23

1) The Union of the Crowns, 1603
2) The Act of Union, 1707
3) The Scottish Enlightenment
4) The 1955 General Election
5) The 1979 General Election - if there was no Thatcher, there would be no Devolution.

Anything before 1603 does not merit mentioning.

3

Mikey,

Carrigaline 30/07/2006 06:40:07

Yes Ian, Anything before 1603 does not merit mentioning.

Scotland has no history, eh? Well seen you're not Scottish.

4

Scottish Unionist,

30/07/2006 06:50:31

Of course Scotland has history before 1603 - its just history that isn't worth mentioning.

Progress occured after this date.

And yes, I am Scottish as a matter of fact!

5

Scottish Unionist,

30/07/2006 07:07:59

I may have been a bit rash on my previous posts. Perhaps the wars of independence should have been in my top five.

After all, Wallace contributed, in a way, to equality under the Union with England. Had he not fought for independence, the Scotland that entered the Union in 1707 would have been so weakened that the Union would have been a takeover of Scottish society not a partnership.

And as for those suggesting Connery or a 1967 football match, are those comments tongue in cheek? If they are not, I'm seriously worried.

6

SC,

Dundee 30/07/2006 07:30:52

Iain, I agree the football is a wee bit dubious, but Connery must have had a fantastic impact in his day? I'm too young to remember, but surely Scottish stereotypes before then was all rain and Brigadoon. Didn't he show to ourselves and others that we could be modern, international and, dare I say it, sexy.

(Also, you're right about 1979. This country would have been up a firth without a paddle without that good dose of liberal free market economics. So an important date for the whole of the UK.)

7

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 30/07/2006 08:20:05

ALL history is worthy of mention. Without the past you have no present

1. The wars of independence 1286-1314. Without this we would all be English now.
2. Union of the Crowns 1603
3. The union of 1707. Both vital for the stability of the Nation.
4. Fleming's discovery of Penicillin. 1928 (even though I'm allergic)!
5. The resurgence of the Nation. (Now) The last 10 years have seen a new respect for the Scots. The best is yet to come I think.

8

Freedom,

scotland 30/07/2006 08:26:31

If it was not for Wallace we would be talking about a separate epoch.

The act of union needs to be in the top slot more as a negative impact to what happens to a country when you jump into bed with the devil, its a warning from the past !

9

Samm,

Edinburgh 30/07/2006 08:48:14

1. 1314 , we stuffed the English!
2. The Scottish Enlightenment, we proved we had the best thinkers about.
3. Alexander Graham Bell's invention, a wee thing called the telephone. Hell where would we be if he hadn't? Probably more sane!
4. John Logie Baird's TV moment!
5.Sir AlexanderFleming's invention of penicillin. But then here I'd also have Sir James Young Simpson he gave us chloroform

10

Dryden,

30/07/2006 09:46:50

"1. 1314 , we stuffed the English!"

Let's also remember your disastrous invasion of England in 1513, in support of France, which culminated in your humiliating defeat at Flodden. While we're at it, let's also remember your sad showing in the second section of the Civil War, which was entirely due to Scottish support for the execrable Charles I, which Cromwell won at Dunbar in 1650, following which Scotland was effectively abolished until the end of the Commonwealth in 1660 -- Scotland was recreated as a kingdom as part of the Restoration settlement. It's surprising that a victory in the 14th century is trumpeted more than the catalogue of reverses of the 16th and 17th centuries.

"5.Sir AlexanderFleming's invention of penicillin. "

He _discovered_ penicillin. The drug's development also had something to do with the Australian Florey and the German-Jewish Chain; all three shared the Nobel for medicine. The latter pair worked at the University of Oxford. For history, not nationalism, try
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin#History

I thought Scots historian Niall Ferguson was joking when he wrote that Scotland had both a superiority complex and an inferiority complex, but perhaps he was correct.

11

Keith,

Edinburgh 30/07/2006 10:09:47

In no particular order;

The Declaration of Arbroath - an important document that influenced the world, not just Scotland.

The Battle of Culloden - a reappraisal of the importance of this battle is essential to understand modern Scotland. It was not about Scotland v England but saw the end of any notion of Absolutism returning to the UK (and as such Scotland).

The 1987 General Election result - the Tories were decimated and as such the impetus towards devolution gained further momentum.

The Scottish Enlightement - "We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation" -- Voltaire. 'Nuf said.

Integral to the start of the "English" Civil War - The Scots decided that although King, the people are sovereign.

12

jd,

S.E.Texas 30/07/2006 10:25:10

I'll leave this one to you lads that live in Scotland to decide, but surely for me it was a momentious occasion, when my da told me Baird was a Scot name and Great-grand pappy came from there, so do us right cousins. I'll go with ya'll's choice.
Re: Dryden @10, Niall musta be misquoted about the inferior comment, of course I'm sure like all complex's, some are built better than others. Well carry on people, time for another we toddy!

13

,

30/07/2006 10:30:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19485, Article id was mapped to record!
14

Mike,

Lancaster 30/07/2006 10:34:27

The greatest contribution to Scots history. The development by BP of The Forties Field in 1970's & the subsequent developments further North. This has meant that particularly the North of Scotland has thrived & the spin off reaches right through UK.

The development has meant that Scots have a much higher public sector than England & Wales bringing benefits in terms of care of the elderly & student education as well as sports and other facilities. Long may that continue but watch the Tory boy David in this respect!

15

JANIS,

London 30/07/2006 11:08:27

Ken @ 13 how about 1215 Magna Carta And the English Language now being used by all on this subject. Not very old histoy but the www an Englishman`s development.i could go,on..... and personally I would like to add that Alexander Fleming developed, with the aid of others, penicillin at my old Hospital training school St Mary`s Paddington

16

,

30/07/2006 11:30:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19521, Article id was mapped to record!
17

,

30/07/2006 12:02:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19548, Article id was mapped to record!
18

,

30/07/2006 12:21:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19571, Article id was mapped to record!
19

Roy Beers,

Glasgow 30/07/2006 12:43:13

1. The Battle of Harlaw, 1411, which put the skids under Gaelic influence in Scotland and defined the nation as a Lowland-dominated country connected to the Normanic feudal European mainstream.
2. Bannockburn. It "proved" Scotland could unite its disparate regional factions to defeat the most powerful army in Europe.
3. The First British Civil War. Your correspondent Mr Dryden's take on the wars of the 17th century is quite ridiculous. In 1644 a Scottish army acting in support of the English Parliamentarians besieged Newcastle and decisively tipped the scales in the Battle of Marston Moor, by which King Charles lost the North and, inevitably, the kingdom. Without the Scots intercession Cromwell, et al, would have lost. Cromwell's lucky win at Dunbar in 1650, and his decade of tyranny, does not alter this fact: Scotland's military contribution to the future shape of British politics, which could no longer be dominated by Catholic-leaning absolute monarchy, was absolutely pivotal.
4. Nechtansmere. Here the Picts decisively routed invading Anglians and reversed "English" incursion into what is now Scotland.
5. George IV's visit to Edinburgh in 1822, in kilt and flesh coloured tights. Sir Walter Scott, inventing a mythical Brigadoon of clan chiefs and bogus tartans, made the idea of Scottish nationhood acceptable to England/Britain's Protestant German rulers. It was an outrageous piece of PR - worthy of the appalling Alistair Campbell - which prevented Scotland being turned into "North Britain". Many of the leading figures of the Scottish Enlightenment fully subscribed to "North Britain" and attempted to turn Scotland into a second hand England. They failed, utterly, and Sir Walter Scott (and his PR genius) must take a great share of the credit.

20

,

30/07/2006 13:02:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19611, Article id was mapped to record!
21

Transparent?,

Scotland 30/07/2006 13:11:19

Just being born a true Scot is enough for me.

22

Neil,

Glasgow 30/07/2006 13:11:38

1) James Watt's invention of the steam engine. All modern industry grew from this. Purists can say he merely improved Newcomen's engine in the same way Shakespeare merely improved on the earlier play called Hamlet.

2) Publication of Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations The modern world's economy is based on this.

3) James Clerk Maxwell's equation. While not as simple as Einstein's he acknowledged that he had built on Maxwell. Electronics, radio & most of modern physics is derived from this.

4) Alexander Fleming's discovery of penicillin. This has saved literaly many hundreds of millions of lives including that of Churchill during the war. There is some argument as to how it happened & whether the Americans would have got there a bit later anyway but nonetheless its importance is clearly enormous.

5) The Declaration of Arbroath. This overturned the feudal position that authority devolves downwards & established firmly that all authority comes from the citizen, willing to defend his rights to the death if need be & that the ruler is merely our representative. The anarchistic strain to all Scots & our respect for education rather than bowing to rank & what this article, hopefully ironically, refers to as the great & good. One can argue that, like Magna Carta, it was an agreement to restrain the king in the interests of the great nobles but it is a vastly more philosophical document than that.
.....................
It will be seen that I have omitted Bannockburn, Stirling Bridge (with more regret) & other battles, Burns, Knox & Walter Scott (all of whom are world class figures) & all footballers & film stars since I don't think the total influence of any of them, no matter how great, matches that of my choices.

23

,

30/07/2006 13:14:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19626, Article id was mapped to record!
24

,

30/07/2006 13:22:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19639, Article id was mapped to record!
25

The Strategist,

30/07/2006 13:23:37

Probably the thing that had the biggest single impact on Scotland in recent times was Thatcher winning the 79 election. Her decision to "liberate" the City of London which has resulted in twenty years of reducing investment levels in start-ups and early stage companies has been hugely damaging to the Scottish economy and completely undermined it's potential.

26

,

30/07/2006 13:36:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19658, Article id was mapped to record!
27

,

30/07/2006 13:38:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19661, Article id was mapped to record!
28

DannyL,

North Wales 30/07/2006 13:39:06

1. Opening of the Forth Road Bridge by HMQE2, 1964, and the resulting final annexation of the Kingdom of Fife.
2. UCS work-in of 1972 still celebrated in national memory with the Welly Boot Song
3. The Naming of Friockheim, 1830. http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/towns/townfirst393.html
4. Some English twit standing on a thistle, Otterburn 1388. Oh, sorry, that was achieved by an Englishman and happened in England. Still as the song goes, I saw a dead man win a fight, and I fear that man was I.
5. The FUTURE Consecration of the Five Sisters of West Calder as a testament to the thousands of my exploited neighbours you lot have probably never even heard of.

29

Donald Campbell,

KENT 30/07/2006 13:45:30

THE GREATEST EVENT TO HAPPEN IN MY OPINION WAS THE CLOSING OF THE DEAN ORPHANAGE. THIS ESTABLISHMENT SUPPLIED THE DOMESTIC HELP FOR MOST OF HOY PALOY IN EDINBURGH OR SENT THE CHILDREN IN TO A FORM OF SLAVERY THROUGHOUT SCOTLAND. THERE ARE BUT A FEW OF US LEFT TO TELL THE TALES OF CRUELTY THAT WAS SUFFERED THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. A GOOD INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER COULD PRODUCE A GOOD STORY ON THIS AND HELP RID US OF THE GHOSTS OF THE PAST. GO ON BE BRAVE.

30

,

30/07/2006 13:46:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19676, Article id was mapped to record!
31

,

30/07/2006 13:50:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19682, Article id was mapped to record!
32

,

30/07/2006 13:56:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19688, Article id was mapped to record!
33

,

30/07/2006 14:01:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19695, Article id was mapped to record!
34

,

30/07/2006 14:29:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19747, Article id was mapped to record!
35

,

30/07/2006 14:36:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19754, Article id was mapped to record!
36

,

30/07/2006 14:40:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19759, Article id was mapped to record!
37

,

30/07/2006 14:49:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19769, Article id was mapped to record!
38

Jan van Atten,

Netherlands 30/07/2006 14:52:48

THE invention of the Scots is oatmeal porridge !!(Starting to eat that after WWII, it now is a maiin part of my food, since I have MND)

39

,

30/07/2006 15:13:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19800, Article id was mapped to record!
40

,

30/07/2006 15:23:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19812, Article id was mapped to record!
41

,

30/07/2006 15:28:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19821, Article id was mapped to record!
42

John Sterlini,

Switzerland 30/07/2006 15:56:59

GET SOME EDUCATION AND OPEN UP TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, CHECK YOUR FACTS!
NOT Bell, BUT; Antonio Santi Giuseppe Meucci (April 13, 1808–October 18, 1896) was an Italian inventor. He developed some form of voice communication apparatus in 1857. The Enciclopedia Italiana de Scienze, Lettere ed Arti calls him the "inventore de telefono" (inventor of the telephone).[1] A 2002 U.S. House of Representatives resolution, made after a long historical investigation, recognized that Meucci "set up a rudimentary communication link in his Staten Island home that connected the basement with the first floor... he demonstrated his invention in 1860 and had a description of it published in New York ’s Italian language newspaper.... and was unable to raise sufficient funds to pay his way through the patent application...". Bell patented the electronic telephone in 1876.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meucci

43

Big Al,

Edinburgh 30/07/2006 16:17:36

The most important thing from Scottish history is the Scottish people themselves.........
Watt...Simpson...Fleming....Logie Baird....Graham Bell....Clark Maxwell ....Napier...Hume.....Scott...Burns

I could go on but you get my drift without the minds of these great Scots the world would be a much poorer place

44

,

30/07/2006 16:18:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19884, Article id was mapped to record!
45

Billy,

Germany 30/07/2006 16:28:21

Somerled the 12th century hero who was the first to defeat the Norse. He became King of Argyll and is known as the saviour of the Gaelic language.

46

,

30/07/2006 16:32:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19900, Article id was mapped to record!
47

Kathleen,

30/07/2006 16:33:11

I'm a wee bit removed from the homeland--but I can't believe that NO ONE has suggested the INRODUCTION OF THE BAGPIPE as one of the greatest events in Scottish history!

48

,

30/07/2006 16:34:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19902, Article id was mapped to record!
49

,

30/07/2006 16:43:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19914, Article id was mapped to record!
50

,

30/07/2006 16:55:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19930, Article id was mapped to record!
51

,

30/07/2006 16:58:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19934, Article id was mapped to record!
52

Scottish Unionist,

30/07/2006 17:08:23

The Treaty of Union was the one of the greatest events in our nations history. It wasn't imposed. It was imperative for progress...the Scottish Enlightenment happened after the Union. Scotland saw unprecedented levels of growth with access to Empire. The Scottish Parliament voted itself out of existence.

With regards to your comment Eve. It depends where you shop. In my experience, I always find Saltires...I don't mind. I like to know the food I'm buying is local, and it would be the same if there was a Union Jack on it.

I am proud of my Scottish heritage but I'm proud to be British too.

53

,

30/07/2006 17:21:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19955, Article id was mapped to record!
54

,

30/07/2006 17:28:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19960, Article id was mapped to record!
55

,

30/07/2006 17:41:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19970, Article id was mapped to record!
56

Scottish Soul,

USA 30/07/2006 17:48:24

Bannockburn........IT was the start to Scottish Pride.

57

,

30/07/2006 18:03:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 19991, Article id was mapped to record!
58

,

30/07/2006 18:13:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20006, Article id was mapped to record!
59

,

30/07/2006 18:15:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20010, Article id was mapped to record!
60

,

30/07/2006 18:16:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20013, Article id was mapped to record!
61

,

30/07/2006 18:24:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20024, Article id was mapped to record!
62

canuckcraig,

British Columbia, Canada 30/07/2006 18:52:29

I think the greatest event was the introduction of free education. It gave everyone an opportunity to improve his lot, and hold his head high.
The works of Robert Burns would come next. He brought dignity to the most lowly man, and made us appreciate the wonders of nature.
My last would be David Livingstone and his explorations of what was then Darkest Africa. He brought together determination, education, curiosity and an obedience towards his God in spreading the Good News.

63

,

30/07/2006 19:06:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20073, Article id was mapped to record!
64

,

30/07/2006 19:18:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20088, Article id was mapped to record!
65

,

30/07/2006 20:28:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20141, Article id was mapped to record!
66

,

30/07/2006 20:39:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20157, Article id was mapped to record!
67

,

30/07/2006 20:42:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20159, Article id was mapped to record!
68

,

30/07/2006 21:15:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20193, Article id was mapped to record!
69

,

30/07/2006 21:24:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20201, Article id was mapped to record!
70

,

30/07/2006 21:56:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20227, Article id was mapped to record!
71

,

30/07/2006 22:46:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20263, Article id was mapped to record!
72

Dryden,

31/07/2006 00:31:10

Thomas (71) wrote "and were a cross fertilisation of the Picts/Scots/Romans/Vikings/ and many other influences"
and
"These achievements may be of a different value to others - does that make them "insignificant" or "not worth mentioning"?"

One of those influences was that of the English -- one you seem to find "not worth mentioning". Further, you have criticised Iain as a product of colonisation, but three of your four examples were colonists. I understand patriotism, but not oversimplification.

I'm an English nationalist who agrees with Iain that the Union has been good to Scotland, but takes the opposite conclusion that England would do better to declare independence and leave Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland to themselves. The levels of dislike and historical reconstruction are now at levels that make it unpleasant to even visit some Scottish towns and universities. I still recall an American colleague, recently appointed to a chair at Edinburgh, being told that it would be much better for his children to lose their acquired English accents as soon as possible; would that similar unpleasant incidents were rare.

As I've written before in other comments, I often wonder if the East European immigrants in Scotland, all from nations which have known ferocious imperialism, on being told of the evil English, do not look away and smile at a nation which
complains so much at being part of one of the most successful, richest and free states in human history.
Here's Scots historian Niall Ferguson positing a similar view:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinio...

73

New town fellow,

Glenrothes 31/07/2006 01:10:38

I think many of the events of the 20th century have shaped Scotland substantially. Two world wars, and the changes in society from WW2 onwards. Believe it or not 1946's Town Planning Act has changed the face of Scotland (for better or worse) more than any other act before it.

Our towns and cities have exploded and taken on all new forms of development. Poor Glasgow lost over half its population, whole new towns have appeared from an earlier garden city movement.

Then come the swinging 60's and Scotland becomes more liberal. Most of Scotlands railways are removed in this decade.

The 1980's Mrs Thatchers government finishes off traditional industries such as steel and coal. Unemployment soars!

Silicon Glen moves the nation forward in technological innovations... then gradually shifts overseas leaving more redundancies and white elephant factories!

The computer ages of the nineties and the noughties change society even more with changes in the workplace, smaller families, less people getting married and more getting divorced.

While Scotlands proud and extensive history is massively important, the more recent events have shaped the nation more than any battle could.

74

New town fellow,

Glenrothes 31/07/2006 01:18:57

Oh and by the way Patrick Geddes (a Scotsman) is renownedly known as the inventor of modern day Town Planning.

75

Dave Laing,

Sunbury, Victoria, AustrLIA 31/07/2006 03:34:37

1. Bannockburn - 1314.
2. Return of the Stone of Destiny to it's rightful home, Edinburgh Castle - 1996.
3. The opening of the Forth Railway Bridge, linking the North and South up the East Coast - 1890.
4. Scotland's first Rugby Triple Crown win, after beating England 21-16 at Twickenham - 1938

76

,

31/07/2006 03:46:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 20503, Article id was mapped to record!
77

ROBERT,

Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA 31/07/2006 03:50:09

I actually agree with Margo MacDonald, but the final score was actually 3-2 against the Netherlands in 1978 rather than 3-1 (although Archie G's goal made it 3-1 at the time). Although we lost the campaign, I'll never grow tired of watching THAT goal!

78

hughie 2,

BRISBANE AUSTRALIA 31/07/2006 05:57:10

A difficult task indeed what with all the great Scottish inventions and men like Sir Walter Scott Robbie Burns, Napier, Fleming, Bell, Baird ,etc I would need a whole book to mention them all, Including of course the lad from Fountainbridge. Sir Sean Connery
(Who incidentally chased after my big sister on his pushbike long time ago)

I believe its our people who are the best and not just in Scotland but on the world scent and we are still producing them like Scotsman Ian Fraser who has just invented an inoculation to protect millions of woman cervical cancer
but think of a world without the benefits of Scottish inventions and Scottish writings To Pick the Best of the Best, Is not a task that I as a writer would want to contemplate. for the Scots are the very fabric of society, yes we even had a hand in writing the American constitution and the “Bill of rights” Oh and please don’t forget the bagpipes and yes perhaps the best of all good single malt "Whisky" Ah my own true love and the inspiration of many a writer. And many a man. And yes I am a wee bit biased I was Born in Edinburgh. Hugh C Gray.
Have a good day from Australia

79

voltaire's janny,

Edinburgh 31/07/2006 07:40:47

Many believe that Bannockburn was the defining moment for Scottish independence, but it was not for a further 14 years, including endless diplomacy further fighting and all too expected Albion perfidy, that England acknowledged Scotland's right for ever in the treaty of Edinburgh/Northampton. It is therefore 1328 that should be celebrated. Though Scotland and England had many more engagements, it is this momentous event that ended England's claim to suzerainty and eventually permitted a Union, no presumptuous annexation, in 1707. This in turn allowed Scots to become Enlightened and, if Arthur Herman is believed, thereby to invent the modern world.

80

Thomas,

Ayrshire 31/07/2006 08:20:52

Wha's like us................ enough said.

Be proud of who we are and our acheivements.

81

voltaire's janny,

Edinburgh 31/07/2006 08:20:55

excerpt Treaty of Edinburgh- Northampton

The Scottish Borders set by Alexander III "shall remain for ever to the eminent prince Lord Robert, by the grace of God the illustrious king of Scots, our ally and dearest friend, and to his heirs and successors, divided in all things from the realm of England, entire, free, and quit, without any subjection, servitude, claim, or demand."

82

Dryden,

31/07/2006 08:26:32

79: "Many believe that Bannockburn was the defining moment for Scottish independence"

They do indeed, but why not, instead focus on the 16th and 17th centuries? Perhaps because the latter do not contain a victory easily simplified by Hollywood and 7 centuries: instead they contain a string of (primarily) defeats and political-economic compromise. This is an interesting phenomenon in historical nationalism, where an early event is identified as the defining moment, an event conveniently located long before historical complications and setbacks. The Battle of Kosovo, in 1389, plays a similar part in Serbian nationalism. In English history, blaming the Norman Conquest for all subsequent problems would be another example.

To return to the subject, perhaps the single defining Scot battle is not Bannockburn, but Flodden in 1513, at which the Scots finally learned the lesson that invading England to help France (perfidious Alba on that occasion) could lead to humiliating defeat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flodden

83

Dryden,

31/07/2006 08:43:36

78: "I believe its our people who are the best and not just in Scotland but on the world scene"

This is precisely the superiority complex alluded to by expat Scot historian Niall Ferguson. Imagine the reaction if a German were to wax patriotic in this way. . .

One of the Scottish developments I've haven't seen here is that of ultrasound, pioneered by Professor Ian Donald at Glasgow, who used the ultrasound equipment of Babcock and Wilcox (boilermakers at Renfrew, who used it to find fractures in plate) to perform the first diagnostic ultrasound. [Lancet 1958;1(7032):1188-95.] Is this not generally known in Scotland?

84

voltaire's janny,

Edinburgh 31/07/2006 09:48:08

responding to #82

My point was precisely that battles are rarely defining moments. That not a single member of Bruce's vanguard, nor Edward's, nor Randolph's divisions wore a kilt far less blue paint is a fact I have to keep reminding American friends. Campbell's Highlanders to be sure were a very significant and oh so political presence and probably kilted (or naked).

However the defining moment, (and the pinnacle of Bruce's accomplishments), that trumps all the battles before or since and actually did ensure Scottish independence is the treaty mentioned. Why? Because it became law, reduced all further conflicts to skirmishes amongst prickly neighbours, or supra-national conflict and actually ended war between Scotland & England. King Edward III's seal says so. Only the treaty of Union altered the balance almost 400 years later. The rest of the fights since then (1328) have not been anything to do with attempted dominion, but predominantly to do with opportunist greed, religion and the internecine struggles of England to limit her monarchs, including those of Scots extraction.

Finally it should be noted that Isabella and Mortimer did not bring Eddie III's lasting peace out of good will. No, it was continuing military action by Bruce including invasions of England and Ulster that forced their hand. We are Scots and they are English because of that one event. We may all be British as well. My name is Irish; two of my kids are American, one Scots and one born amongst the alien corps dan sarf. I do think we need a national anthem that doesn't go on about England, but at Murrayfield or Hampden my loyalties are what they are. Oh and for good measure, if Sri Lanka plays England at tiddly winks. Bonnie Sri-Lanka, we'll support you ever more.....

85

Roy,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 10:32:20

(31) I'm afraid Mr Dryden is getting a wee bit carried away in his pro-English zeal. The Stuart dynasty, which he dismisses en bloc as duffers, included James VI and I, who united the kingdoms - a revolting individual, to be sure, but an eminently successful one, and not for nothing dubbed "the wisest fool in Christendom".
It also included James IV, killed at Flodden, who was arguably one of the greatest monarchs of his age (he was certainly the greatest Stuart).
England's "greatest" monarch, if you are talking about military achievement, was either Edward I or Edward III - neither of whom ultimately made the least impression on Scotland, the country they wished to annexe and enslave.
Cromwell was indeed lucky at Dunbar - lucky that his general Lambert was there to save him from his incompetence (Cromwell was never better than average as a general, and was hopelessly out of his depth against real soldiers, like Sir David Leslie): and the Scots contribution to the 1st Civil War was indeed pivotal.
Modern English history treats the battle of Naseby, 1645, as the decisive battle of the "English" Civil War, but in reality it was a postscript: Marston Moor was the watershed, from which there could be no return. To repeat the point: Cromwell's team would unquestionably have lost without the Scots (on numbers alone).
Mr Dryden might also like to recall that it was the tax demanded for Charles I's hopeless Bishop's War in 1640 (in which the English were humiliated in trying to enforce their religion on Scotland) which led directly to parliamentary revolt, and Cromwell's reign of terror.
The "execrable" Charles I had been dead for a year by the time of Dunbar - murdered by Cromwell's not terribly democratic kangaroo court - but Mr Dryden is correct in the broad sense: it was the Scots (courtesy of the Treaty of Breda, etc) which made it possible for Charles II to regain his throne. Merrie England, I

86

Dryden,

31/07/2006 11:14:44

Stuart (84): "My point was precisely that battles are rarely defining moments."

That's a much deeper point to which the historian's honest reply must be "Sometimes yes, sometimes no". To take your implied view of a wider perspective, we should also consider that one reason for Plantagenet abandonment of Scottish ambitions was the Hundred Years War with France -- Edward III had bigger fish to fry -- followed by the internecine strife of the War of the Roses. To choose a single battle which surely was a defining moment, England's victory at Crecy (1346) was the beginning of a general diversion of English interests for more than a century. I suspect that Anglo-Scottish wars would have been much more common between Bannockburn and Flodden had this not been the case.

"The rest of the fights since then (1328) have not been anything to do with attempted dominion"

I'd like to argue that England was sweetness and light, but the truth is that it was in the interests of England to dominate Scotland, whether by military means or economic. To take an example of military domination, see the Wikipedia article on Cromwell's Commonwealth of England, which includes an alternative Union emblem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_England
An earlier example of English intervention in Scottish affairs would be Elizabeth I's execution of Mary.

87

Dryden,

31/07/2006 11:42:26

Roy (86) wrote: "not for nothing dubbed "the wisest fool in Christendom"."

These comments are much meatier.

James VI/I did not unite the kingdoms, although it was his ambition, but I would accept this traditional faint praise: he was less incompetent than his parents and his son. To his credit, he did avoid direct involvement in the 30 Years War, despite his daughter, the Winter Queen.

"James IV, killed at Flodden, who was arguably one of the greatest monarchs of his age (he was certainly the greatest Stuart)."

Even I think this is unfair to the Stuarts! If you're looking for a positive Stuart product, I would suggest Charles I's Dutch grandson William III/II and his wife/cousin Mary (James II's daughter and Edward Hyde's grand-daughter). William III/II led the final triumph of the Dutch Republic in their long wars from 1568 (against Spain) to the defeat of Louis XIV.

"(in which the English were humiliated in trying to enforce their religion on Scotland)"
No disagreement with your data on the Bishops' War, but merely to point out that enforcing over-Catholic ritual was equally unpopular in England -- had the Scots not revolted, similar English reaction was surely only a matter of time.

"Modern English history treats the battle of Naseby, 1645, as the decisive battle of the "English" Civil War"
Perhaps it once did, but try Royle's "War of the Three Kingdoms". I agree that the Scots contribution was crucial at Marston Moor (under Leslie).

"it was the Scots (courtesy of the Treaty of Breda, etc) which made it possible for Charles II to regain his throne."

The Declaration of Breda was not merely negotiated by Scots. The future Duke of Albemarle was certainly important, but so was Hyde, Montagu, Fairfax, etc . . . Still, I'll certainly grant that Charles II was the least incompetent Stuart after William III/II. I object to your view

88

Dave,

Western Isles 31/07/2006 13:30:42

The pnumatic tyre? Telephone? The fax machine? Credit? Forth Rail Bridge? The Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders?

What haven't the Scots done for the world?

89

Swarm,

Greenbelt, Maryland, USA 31/07/2006 13:33:44

I am not a Scot, but local events often have great impact beyond their own borders. The Declaration of Arbroath is a fine example. It predates our so-called "Declaration of Independence" (The Unaminous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America) and contains those same important elements - a lust for freedom and the birthright of rebellion - but does so more than 450 years prior to this declaration against George III by the English colonies in America.

Of much more concern to me are the choices made by your Labor MSP, Wendy Alexander. Most seem to be the artifices of bureaucracy. Such rubbish is imitated throughout the world, but the Declaration of Arbroath (1320) and the axe of Good King Robert (1314) have known no equal.

90

Eve,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 13:45:06

88. Dryden, I'm lost about what your talking about.

Heres some of the best things about being Scottish:
1. The Declaration of Arbroath
2. Bannockburn
3. The devolved parliament (which is hopefully the stepping stone to independence)
4. Rabbie Burns poetry/ songs
5. Alexander Fleming's discovery of penicillin, 1928

6. Many other events and produces and exports.

91

Dryden,

31/07/2006 14:25:35

"88. Dryden, I'm lost about what your talking about."

Well, it's fairly detailed historical commentary in a discussion with Roy -- Scottish and English history between Bannockburn/Arbroath and Union. My general theme is that many Scots conveniently forget the key events of the 16th and 17th centuries.

For example, your list (except for point 6) omits all Scottish achievements between the 14th century and the 18th, giving only Burns for the 18th and 19th centuries. I'm always surprised so few Scots mention Napier, whose creation of logarithms was the most significant scientific contribution from the British Isles until Newton.

92

voltaire's janny,

31/07/2006 15:45:16

87
While enjoying this banter, you can hardly accuse me of "forgetting" all the grief twixt then 1328 and now. My only thesis is the significance of Edinburgh/ Northampton in Anglo Scottish relations compared with a result like, say, Bannockburn. I agree that dominion of Scotland by England never went away, witness Darien's sabotage by piracy and other interfering that would today be regarded as warlike acts. I only mean to imply that the treaty settled sovereignty so that the 1707 treaty, aided by bribing the same bankrupts Darien created, was at least (and it isn't much) an agreement entered into by sovereign entities. That England reneged on many provisions or that the Scots with the Franchise more resembled a cartel is not important here. You cannot deny that the legal basis of Scots independence was established in 1328 and that far from Eddy the turd being distracted, he was a minor and played little role.

I am also a Napier fan, but in any list there are so many amazing Scots contributors that picking one or two reflects the list writers' preference and interests and cannot be definitive. I am also a Hume fan, a Higgs fan (and Bose for that matter (sic)) and an atheist who cannot deny the role of the Kirk in enabling the enlightenment we are justly proud of. To be Scots means born or settled here, making your way in the finest small country in the world. If you're English, congratulations on moving here; your kids will be as Jockinese as the rest of us. When the sun shines, my friend calls it a great to be in Scotland day. The other days are pretty good too.

93

voltaire's janny,

31/07/2006 15:50:54

93+

and before you point out how rubbish the Scots were in the isthmus of Panama - I agree English piracy was only one factor preventing aid and trade after the Scots had well and truly bodged it themselves. They took several thousand powdered wigs for example!!!

94

Iain MS,

Newcastle 31/07/2006 15:53:04

As mentioned a few times already - almost hidden amongst the lengthy pointless diatribes - the greatest thing about Scotland is the enormous contribution (mainly un-sung) which so many Scottish people have made to all aspects of world development beyond our shores. Thank goodness that these chat-room thingies didn't exist in the days of Wallace, Bruce, Burns, Baird etc etc etc as they'd probably have been caught up in the endless childish point-scoring and name-calling that can be seen above, and achieved nothing at all worthwhile.

Maybe the frequent contributors on here should a) get a life, b) get off their soap boxes, c) get a job or c) all of the above.

95

Dryden,

31/07/2006 16:06:23

Stuart (93): "While enjoying this banter, you can hardly accuse me of "forgetting" all the grief twixt then 1328 and now."

Agreed. I was not aiming that criticism at you at all.

Of course I agree that Edward III was a minor in 1328 (though only just, at 14, by medieval standards). My implication was that, had the wholly unexpected Crecy victory not occurred in 1346, then the written agreements might well have been repudiated -- the period from Edward III to Edward IV therefore became relatively calm for Anglo-Scottish relations.

Anyway, following Iain's advice, and since my train will soon get to Edinburgh, it's time to return to mathematics for me.

96

,

31/07/2006 16:15:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 21197, Article id was mapped to record!
97

Roy,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 16:30:01

(96) Mr Dryden - who, even allowing for the legendary ineptitude of the railway system, ought to be safely at Waverley now, with his Blackberry - is right about the relative calm in Anglo-Scottish relation following England's stunning victory at Crecy: it was a Scotsman who lost France the battle of Poitiers (or Poictiers), but that's another story.
One other Scottish contribution is worth mentioning, however - the thousands who fought for France in the 100 Years War, and specifically in the armies of Joan of Arc. There were some spectacular Scottish defeats, and some impressive victories, but it's perhaps most significant that they took place on French soil, not Scottish or English.
Scotland was also a net exporter of military men during the 30 Years War, when many thousands enlisted in the Swedish army of Gustavus Adolphus (including an entire Scots brigade); a tradition later continued in the Dutch army of the early 18th century, when the Scots Brigade fought alongside the elite Gard te Voet. Their colours, in the allied army commanded by Marlborough, were, of course, the Saltire.

98

dyon gollins's back,

brussels 31/07/2006 16:44:35

Minus:-1. Arrival of Margaret at the (gaelic-speaking) court of Malcolm Canmore;
2.Flodden;
3.The Treaty of Union with England (sic' a parcel o' rogues in a nation!)
4.The Education Act of 1882 and the imposition of english language tuition in gaelic speaking schools;
5.The first world war.
6.Scottish Politics;
7.John Knox and Religious Conflict and bigotry.
8.Poverty and Deprivation as a result of the growth of the cities and the industrialisation of the country.
9.The middle classes and unionist politicians toadying to england;
10.The frightful and frighteneing rate of violent and alcohol/drug induced crime in scotland.

Plus:-1.The wars of Independence;
2.The enlightenment and its great thinkers, notably david hume;
3.The language and musical culture in Scotland(all of it and continuing!);
4.The christian church as a positve influence for learning and culture (Iona and the Abbeys);
5.Enterprise and the growth of scientific and technical expertise;
6.Denis Law and the delights of scottish football;
7.Whisky, haggis and scottish raspberries (not necessarily all at once!)and scottish hospitality;
8.the intrepidity and humanity of people in scotland in everyday life;
9.the great beauty of the country and the islands;and
10.The Sottish parliament Building (in waiting for a real scottish parliament!).

99

Eve,

Glasgow 31/07/2006 18:34:05

#99 Great Lists, well planed out. A pleasure to read.

100

Mike Munro,

Sassenachland 31/07/2006 21:27:46

Wow ! what a great debate !

It matters more that we have so many worthy suggestions than the relative merits of each.

As a Scot living in England it's striking that we are so much prouder of our nation than the English are of theirs. The passion and knowledge of contributors to this column are evidence of our sense of identity being passed on.

101

,

31/07/2006 21:28:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 21344, Article id was mapped to record!
102

,

01/08/2006 07:57:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 21483, Article id was mapped to record!
103

,

01/08/2006 08:30:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 21505, Article id was mapped to record!
104

,

01/08/2006 10:15:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 21568, Article id was mapped to record!
105

,

01/08/2006 10:18:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 21570, Article id was mapped to record!
106

,

01/08/2006 11:20:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 21622, Article id was mapped to record!
107

Dave Laing,

Sunbury, Victoria, Australia 01/08/2006 12:55:32

Don't forget the Sydney harbour Bridge!!

108

Alison,

East Anglia 01/08/2006 15:47:01

Mike @ 101

Have a look at this website to see the in excess of 600 icons that English people have contributed to depict England. You obviously aren't living in the right part of England, or reading English newspapers.

http://www.icons.org.uk/

109

anna,

01/08/2006 17:16:03

Mike @ 101

Why don't you try this website to discover some English icons, before you dismiss us as unpatriotic:

www.icons.org.uk

110

Donald,

Brisbane, Australia 03/08/2006 12:01:20

Love the discussion. I believe that 1328 was the defining moment in the nation's history, where we won our rights. In 1707 we gave a goodly portion of those rights back. Don't be conned into believing that latter union was a marriage of equals, Scotland has, been treated over the past 300 years as a Colony to be utilised at the master's pleasure. Check on the other great colonies who gave so generously of their Fighting men in the two great wars in the 20th century, Canada, Australia, new Zealand, and of course Scotland. Their losses were proportionally much higher than mother England's. Perhaps being used as Mercenaries, without the benefit of the higher wages.
Having been born in and lived in Scotland, then New Zealand and Australia, I can say, without fear of contradiction, that the world would be a much poorer place without the benefit of the Scottish people who have travelled to, and settled in these far flung outposts of the " Empire ". Now living in a multi racial country I frequently hear comments, like " My Grandfather was Scottish, He came out here 80 years ago " This is always said with pride.

A wise man once said, " there are only two nations on earth, The Scots, and those who would like to be "

111

Swarm,

Greenbelt, Maryland, USA 04/08/2006 14:38:44

Donald in Brisbane [111]:

Amen and amen.

At a hole-in-the-wall restaurant called "Genevieve's," south of Daytona Beach hangs a sign that says, "Behind every successful man is a confused mother-in-law." I guess this makes England the "Mother-in-law" country.

Along with your "two nations," I believe are "two people." Those who are successful (doing their duty), and those who are confused (and take the credit).

God bless the duty-bound of Scotland, Wales, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the U.S. I am proud to be numbered among you guilty vagabonds who are confusing mothers-in-law everywhere!

112

David J,

Ex-Patshire 04/08/2006 15:26:37

I`m not sure about my top 5 moments in Scottish history, but under the banner of "Scotland`s Best", I`d offer:

#1 - Mince and Tatties
#2 - Lentil Soup (ham bone variety)
#3 - Clydeside Plums
#4 - Blairgowrie Rasps
#5 - Macallan 25yo

I`m not sure if it`s a nutritionally deficient diet, but it`s a psychologically brilliant one.

113

Anna,

Cambridgeshire 04/08/2006 15:41:50

Well done to all those people who found so many positive things to say about their country, Scotland.

However, it is a shame that a couple of posters had to do it by denigrating England. I am not going to argue with you but would just like to point out to Donald and Edward that there were many ordinary English people who were sacrificed in the building of the British Empire as well. My great grandfather and grandfather were killed in WW1 and WW2 respectively so I have family experience of that - they were both English.

PS: David - don't forget Highland Toffee!!

114

JANIS,

London 04/08/2006 16:34:21

Anna Donald & Edward are Ex. Pats. Scots in a league of their own.

115

Swarm,

Greenbelt, Maryland, USA 04/08/2006 18:44:46

Anna, there is more than enough denigration to go around everywhere. If I poked a finger in England's eye, it was done in gest. There would be no U.S. without an England. As I told my Boy Scouts a few weeks ago at camp (where I also related stories of Thermopylae and Bannockburn), humans do not pass down civilization in their genes. We pass it down in our values. Most all of what the "civilized" world has today is not a matter of wealth and resources, but of values and hard work. We owe so much to those who came before us, as James Burke has so artfully shown. We owe much to the Babylonians, Sumerians, Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Persians, Norsemen, Irish, Scots, Spanish, English, Chinese, Indians, and even the French. Remove but the smallest part of this total contribution, and we are less than whole. Those "ordinary English people" are a sample like many others. They, like many others, have varied values, culture, and skills, but as with millions of unsung citizens elsewhere, they go about their everyday lives without fanfare, building tomorrow by standing on the shoulders of many giants.

And now for more important matters. Where does a Yank find David's culinary delights in the Washington, DC area? (My best Navy Bean soup is the hambone variety.)

116

Anna,

Cambridgeshire 04/08/2006 19:47:35

Edward,

Thank you for your post.....

My Northumbrian Nana used to make lentil and hambone soup as well. You need orange lentils, a good ham hock bone with meat still on, split peas, a few root vegetables and just let it all stew together for a good long while. This is not a recipe or meal that should be hurried!!

Regards

117

Anna,

Cambridgeshire 04/08/2006 19:48:35

Don't forget the water ....... it's the ham bone that makes the excellent stock!

118

DannyL,

North Wales 04/08/2006 19:48:54

David #113, a fine list. The only omission I would note is that of Clydeside Tomatoes, one of the early victims of the so-called global economy, although as I recall the Yom Kippur war got the blame at the time. Having recently signed the pledge (but not wishing to make a big deal of it) I would substitute your fifth the aforesaid.


 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.