Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Salmond tax plan in tatters

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Scotland On Sunday site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 02 March 2008
THE SNP's flagship plan to scrap council tax has been wrecked by the UK Government after ministers categorically ruled out helping to fund the radical reform.
UK Work and Pensions Secretary James Purnell infuriated Nationalists by declaring there would be no financial assistance for the policy from south of the border, and accused First Minister Alex Salmond of wanting English taxpayers to "subsidise" his
government.

Salmond came to power last year pledging to replace council tax with what he described as "fairer" local income tax (LIT), with all earners being charged 3p in the pound.

The SNP can only fund the changes if the current £400m-a-year council tax rebate from Westminster continues. Salmond predicted during last year's election campaign that UK ministers would not want to "sabotage" the reform and would continue to pay up.

But Purnell last night effectively killed off the plan. In an exclusive interview with Scotland on Sunday, he said: "They are basically asking us to subsidise them for having a different system. That would seem to me to be pretty hard to justify."

Purnell said the SNP could not claim the local income tax was fair and, at the same time, ask for a UK benefit to help off-set its costs. He said: "If they are promoting a system which is income related and based on the ability to pay then there is no need for a benefit on top of that. They can't have it both ways. They are trying to have their cake and eat it.

"If someone's council tax is £200, council tax benefit will take, say, £100 off that... but the SNP is saying that they now want another £100 on top of that as well. They are saying they want to spend the money anyhow. That is what they are asking for – to give us extra money because of a system that is different to the rest of the country. If there is no council tax then there is no council tax benefit."

Purnell's comments are a major blow to the Government, whose pledge to 'axe the council tax' was one of the major policies in last year's election campaign. The Nationalists claim the tax would leave thousands more Scots better off. People without an income – such as pensioners – would pay no tax at all. The SNP claimed only the wealthiest 10% of the country would have to pay more, and then only face a 1% increase.

However, a 3p rate would leave councils nearly £1bn short of the sums they currently take from council tax. The SNP claimed it could plug this gap by £450m efficiency savings, and from the £400m Westminster rebate.

Former ITN chairman Sir Peter Burt, who chaired a committee of investigation into local taxation, estimated that without the extra sums, the tax would need to be fixed at 6.5p in the pound to maintain local government revenues.

One senior insider in the UK Government said: "We'll say to them (the SNP], 'You have come up with this policy so you have got to sort it out'. It isn't our job to do that. They say they are the Government. They shouldn't be acting like big babies."

The source added: "If your core argument is that this tax will be based on the ability to pay and that it is a fairer tax, then why do you need this money?

"This isn't our problem. It isn't our policy. If you can't make it come out at a level which is acceptable to voters, then maybe it's a problem with your policy."

A spokesman for Finance Secretary John Swinney said: "Hopefully, once Mr Purnell has had the opportunity to read our consultation document on local income tax very shortly, he will understand the issues."

He added: "The council tax benefit is Scotland's money, plain and simple. It is part and parcel of the system of locally raised tax to help fund local government services."

Salmond gained support from the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Nicol Stephen yesterday. In a speech to his party conference in Aviemore, Stephen said he wanted to work with Salmond to bring about the reform. Addressing the First Minister, he said: "If you are serious about a local income tax, work with us, bring together now, in good faith, those in Scotland who want to see the council tax scrapped and replaced by a local income tax."

However, the Confederation of British Industry in Scotland last night reiterated its opposition to the plans.

Director Iain McMillan said: "Firstly, we believe a tax on property is a legitimate one. Secondly, we are concerned about the bureaucracy that would arise with having to amend the PAYE system."





The full article contains 790 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

AJ Fife,

02/03/2008 00:12:53
Yawn....more contrived nonsense from the Scotsman/SoS!

2

ratzo,

02/03/2008 00:15:25
Jeezo...STILL flogging this old story?

This one was doing the rounds a million years ago when they were saying that an SNP victory at Holyrood would cost every one in Scotland £5000 each.

Hmm...that reminds me...Northern Rock...how much is that costing us again...?
3

Brian S,

London 02/03/2008 00:19:48
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I didn't get past the first paragraph - off to read the Herald.
4

Alan B,

02/03/2008 00:25:10
How immature are the labour party trying to be.

"Purnell said - They are basically asking us to subsidise them for having a different system. That would seem to me to be pretty hard to justify."
That is clearly a lie. The snp are simply asking that the same money available for the council tax is available for a local income tax.

There really does look like there is no end to the depth the labour party will sink. I say this as someone who is not particulary supportive of a local income tax, but supports the right of the scottish party of government to choose the appropriate form of local taxation.

Labour position is - the scottish parliament can choose whatever council taxation method it wants, but if it chooses one we do not want and do not give england we will withdraw money available to england.

The only was out this mess is FISCAL AUTONOMY. This means that this blatent blackmail will not be allowed to continue.
5

Why Are 400,000 Leaving The UK Each Year ?,

02/03/2008 00:27:21
One thing is for sure, the SNP are setting the agenda in a way LibLabs couldn't manage.

Personally I don't agree that this policy is any good, but the SNP have been showing imagination and initiative in other more pragmatic areas.

Better than that Alex Salmond is head and shoulders above poor wee Jack or Lame Duck LibDem Leader Nicol Stephen.
6

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 00:31:27
I am no fan of the SNP, but I do hope they can get this policy through as (in my opinion) it would be a fairer system.
7

Alan B,

02/03/2008 00:32:57
Scotsman get ur act together. There are reasons for and against a local income tax or the council tax but that is not the issue here. The issue is the appalling behaviour of the labour party. No-one can justify withholding money from scotland made available to england just because the scottish government chooses a differnt form of council tax.

As such ur headline is a disgrace.

The headline should have been something like "Spiteful Labour robs scotland of democratic right to choose local income tax"
8

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 00:35:14
It was obvious before the election that the current £400m-a-year council tax rebate would be dis-continued if we scrapped council tax.

The SNP always refuted that point which was a bit disingenuous of them.

Anyway, its now time for them to see what they can do to keep their manifesto pledge without the subsidy. I am sure it must be possible.
9

,

02/03/2008 00:36:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 00:40:10
"Purnell said - They are basically asking us to subsidise them for having a different system. That would seem to me to be pretty hard to justify."

Well not that hard really. It's called the devolution act and your party introduced it in 1997.
11

karinxx,

02/03/2008 00:41:07
Its time we the public killed off this paper who is up for it?
12

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 00:42:46
Edition 1: The Scotsman Total UK England, Wales & NI Scotland ROI Other Countries
Edition 1 - Average Net Circulation: 55,766 55,759 1,282 54,477 7
Average Circulation - Full Rate 51,663 1,233 50,430
Average Circulation - Lesser Rate 39 39
Average Circulation - Pre-Paid Non Postal Subscription 1,257 1,257
Average Circulation - Corporate Subscription Sales
Average Circulation - Multiple Copy 2,800 49 2,751

#9 weh.Less than 1% of Scotland read this rag so i would not worry about the contents contained in it.
13

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 00:45:06
Karinxx what a joke you are.

If you hate the paper so much, how come you are never off its website?
14

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 00:47:16
#9 Weh .......well I recokon it is a Scottish Newspaper don't you?

What is your thinking here?

Is it because it tells the truth about the SNP then it can't be Scottish??

You need to cut back on your medication.
15

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 00:49:01
#11

Only 54,000 people read this rag and that equates to the population of Greenock.
Even the amount of correspondence from the online users has tumbled due to the lack of proper and balanced reporting.
16

Melly,

Cuckfield 02/03/2008 00:53:35
Just been on the Herald and there is no mention of this story. This has to be something contrived by a disenchanted apprentice at the Scotsman.Maybe I`m in dreamland.
17

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 00:54:00
Neil launched his bid to lift The Scotsman's flagging circulation in May last year. After an overhaul of the paper that saw the launch of a tabloid features and arts section and a period of rapid-fire turnover of journalists at all levels, he slashed the cover price from 42p to 20p in a bid to get the new-look product in front of new readers.

At the time, Neil was fabled for his "morale boosting" power- point presentations delivered from a podium in the new Scotsman building's atrium. There was a short-term uplift, with sales briefly soaring above 100,000, an achievement Neil prematurely trumpeted at a reception in the Dorchester Hotel, London.

Look at it now, 7 years later and it has halved.
18

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 00:58:32
The Scotsman, owned by the Barclay brothers, has begun to feel the effects of the bloody circulation battle in Scotland.

The newspaper, engaged in a fierce fight for readers with the Herald, has been ordered by executives to cut editorial budgets by around 10%. The number of pages is also expected to be reduced, chiefly in the business and tabloid sections. The newspaper, which is run for the brothers' Press Holdings by Andrew Neil, has also frozen recruitment.

Similar cuts will be imposed on Scotland on Sunday.

A spokesman refused to discuss the retrenchment. He said: "Certain budget refinements have been made to ensure the continued competitiveness of the newspaper in what is generally regarded as one of the toughest markets in the world. But this does not involve job losses."

The newspaper is also considering recalling its Washington correspondent, Robert Tait, as it struggles to take £1m out of the editorial budget.

The Scotsman has gone through a turbulent period in the past 15 months or so, with a large number of staff defections, a relaunch, and three editors, the latest, Rebecca Hardy, arriving in June last year.

19

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 01:00:27
As you see from the post above, the paper has been in decline even when Manic Neil was scribbling gibberish.
20

An Beal Bacht,

02/03/2008 01:09:32
Rio - Good posts bro:

If they really wanted to increase circulation all they need to do is report honestly and be supportive of Scottish aspirations. Since they steadfastly refuse to do that one must assume that they have another agenda - one that supersedes financial success. Perhaps the new chairman of the Scottish branch of the Conservative and Unionist Party could explain it to us?
21

Soosider,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 01:19:30
Let me get my head round this, the UK government gives grant for Council Tax rebates, but does not feel inclined to offer similiar support for scheme that would replace it? Why not? I thnk most folk would see this as punitive action and would be inclined to take umbridge with it.
Seems like another win - win situation for the SNP
22

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 02/03/2008 01:25:01

The council tax is not a fair tax

Taxes are a burden for us all where we have to pay our fair share to keep the country running

However the coucil tax is a punitive tax and instead of putting the burden on middle income people should be spread across society
23

,

02/03/2008 01:27:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

Soosider,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 01:27:41
I think Eddie is going for a record 4 anti SNP articles in the one edition. You would not have an agenda would you?
25

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 01:28:28
The Herald is going upwards, even though it has a go at the SNP Scottish Government. The reason for this is obviously the balance of its opinion. It does not condemn or avoid the Scottish Peoples right to Independance, and it has some first class reporters who tackle the issues that matter here in Scotland.
26

,

02/03/2008 01:38:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/03/2008 01:49:21
Aye, no sources from the SNP in this story. Haw haw material...
28

DouglasT,

02/03/2008 01:50:53
No mention in SoS of the renfrewshire referendum on EU - is the result inconvenient for the SoS ??
29

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 02/03/2008 02:00:27
This story, along with the refusal to discuss firearms control, just reinforces the need for complete independence from England, if we are to run our own affairs, (including foreign policy) in the way we want. Roll on independence!
30

Colkitto,

River Clyde 02/03/2008 02:27:08
Almost every story from the Scotland on Sunday is an negative SNP story. This is getting tedious and sickening. Democracy eh ?

31

indune1,

02/03/2008 02:34:21
11 - karin - you sultry wench. Where have you been?

No more piano missions for you. It's Dunnie.
32

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 02:48:53
Labour might be able to find some dodgy excuse to reduce the SNP budget by a further 450M but if they do it will be because they are scared the SNP were about to create a popular fair system of local taxation rather than the council tax which is as bad nowadays as the poll tax.

Labour lost the election. If they attack the Scottish budget they are effectively attacking the people of Scotland and their right to choose another party.

The key point here is the sovereignty of the Scottish people. This was a concept Labour paid lip service to in the past through the Claim of Right but which they appear to have rejected now in favour of the idea that the UK parliament is actually sovereign.

If this becomes clearer to the Scottish electorate (and their rejection of a democratic referendum on independence with their now anti Scottish chums the Liberal Democrats is a pretty big clue) their vote will go the way of the Tories and deservedly so.

Also the unions (at last) might doubt the wisdom of funding a Labour dictatorship controlled by London over the wishes of their own folk and might choose to vote their Scottish branches into independence as a prelude to supporting the SNP and Scottish independence.
33

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/03/2008 03:24:55
Castaway,
That shows exactly who Scotand's enemy is. This is unionist la la land!
34

Navvy,

02/03/2008 03:47:27
riotinto wrtes rubbish

Selling papers is only part of the story
Few posters will have bought a paper

Karenxxrated should confine herself to the daily record
35

Willie Macleod,

Wick 02/03/2008 03:54:58
'34 I am a Scot Who is an enemy I see no enemy I see people living on an island without borders.
36

,

02/03/2008 03:56:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 04:14:31
#37 ah, rational debate. I am very interested in Mr Foulke's remarks however. Even the SofS theirselves are saying that Labour can't get away with this so your ranting isn't winning any arguments.

Nice to see you're frustrated though, I wonder why Labour can't get anyone to support their position online? Maybe it's because most normal folk find running down their own country extremely unattractive.
38

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 04:15:25
#37 You're not David Cairns are you?
39

,

02/03/2008 04:22:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

,

02/03/2008 04:25:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
41

,

02/03/2008 04:25:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

,

02/03/2008 04:26:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

,

02/03/2008 04:27:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

Willie Macleod,

Wick 02/03/2008 04:27:49
#38 What you get online are those who play the fool those who play with words, and those who play the devils advocate and others some decent some abusive and vile.
45

,

02/03/2008 04:35:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Willie Macleod,

Wick 02/03/2008 04:42:29
46 I reject Nationalism be it British or Scottish.
47

mesmiths,

fife 02/03/2008 06:07:27
This is not a proper newspaper!
48

Why Are 400,000 Leaving The UK Each Year ?,

02/03/2008 06:28:05
Not that anyone seems to have noticed, but Nicol Stephen just announced he is joining up with the SNP on this policy.

Forgive me if my arithmetic is wrong, but doesn't that mean with SNP 47 votes and LibDem 16 votes, this plan has a very good chance of becoming law in Scotland/

Cue one rather fiesty fight between the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government.

Also, with all due respect to the Scotsman, a little forward thinking on this piece of reporting might have highlighted some alternate end games producing a more likely article than running with the: Salmond LIT Plan In Tatters :@)
49

Forward not Back,

02/03/2008 06:31:42
Quite simply, council tax or local income tax, why has no one commented on the stupidity of a system that charges individuals a certain amount and then gives them the money to pay it.

Negative income tax rates are the way to tackle poverty efficiently and remove an army of pen pushers at the same time. Why does no one consider this?
50

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 02/03/2008 06:35:49
Ah, the usual reasoned debate I expect to find on the comments page of the Scotsman.

It's the paper's fault! It's the Labour Party's fault! It's the (insert yor usual stalking horse here)'s fault!

Let's play "what if" for a moment. What if the British government's serious and refuses to fund Mr. Salmdond's plan?
51

Argyll on line,

Argyll 02/03/2008 06:37:33
Where is Faither Cairns in all this? His anti- Scottish gub is uncharteistically shut for the moment. Time to actually seize the oil revenues surely.
52

donald,

glasgow 02/03/2008 06:50:17
The only way to reject British Nationalism is to vote for Independence and learn the difference between oppressive and progressive nationalism.
53

Phil-Atelist,

Livingston A roundabout way to get anywhere 02/03/2008 07:34:12
Thankfully I do not have to pay to read this drivel
54

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 07:37:57
Easy to find the £400 Million shortfall.

Trams spend - around £500M
Trams already spent - around £100M
Scrap them, pay some penalties - leaves around £400Million.

Job done - back to bed!!!
55

donald,

glasgow 02/03/2008 07:43:21
Video available for this article What now for the Prince who wants to be a soldier?

Dress up as an Admiral.
56

steve 1511,

aberdeen 02/03/2008 07:45:31
james purnell this man is a proven liar who falsified photos,a true labour politician
57

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 02/03/2008 07:47:05
You are all being a little harsh about those in power in Westminster, the money is better needed to buy extra shredders for all the MP's and pay for taxis for wive's shopping trips. Obviously, when it can be well spent for the benefit of such as those, there is no need to squander it on 'common' people.

Oh, and of course the PM Gordon Brown needs to keep his war chest topped up.......

and the Chancellor needs a bit for Northern Crock....




Yours etc

Angus Whitton
58

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 07:49:40
Another Sunday, another NuLiebour Propaganda Machine AKA Scotland (sic) on Sunday AKA Pravda and another anti-SNP story. Quelle surprise!!!!

And doesn't council tax benefit go to support the poor and needy, like the families of vulnerable-two-year-olds, vulnerable-two-year-olds, vulnerable-two-year-olds. Where's whining Wendy when you need her to champion the cause of the vulnerable? Oh, aye too busy taking orders from Westminster to care!

So the Westminster view is - you can have devolution, but you can only do what we tell you. And the NuLiebour and LibDumb response to this is what? After all, they campaigned around Scotland saying the 'powers' from the devolution 'settlement' would kill the SNP stone dead. The only non-liar in this imperialist, unionist con trick was, ironically, Tony Blair when he said the powers of the Scottish Parliament would be the same as an English parish council. And for eight years, the coalition partners duly obliged!!!!
59

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 02/03/2008 07:54:09
18 Rio Tinto,02/03/2008 00:58:32
The Scotsman, owned by the Barclay brothers, has begun to feel the effects of the bloody circulation battle in Scotland.

All you say is correct but you are a bit out of date. The Scotsman etc has long since been taken over by the Johnson Press which originated in Falkirk, and claims to be Scottish. Yet the first thing they did was to appoint a provincial Englishman to edit the Scotsman! If the English ever engage in a military occupation of Scotland we will have no shortage of Quislings to collaborate with them.
60

FM in Dundee,

02/03/2008 07:56:04
Should the headline not be

"Westminster sparks fresh row with Scottish Government"
61

Phil C,

02/03/2008 07:58:45
The following ‘stories’ printed today are given an anti SNP twist by the SoS. They are ALL By Eddie Barnes, Political Editor & Labour Bottom Wiper! It’s really not very clever!

1. “THE SNP's flagship plan to scrap council tax has been wrecked by the UK Government after ministers categorically ruled out helping to fund the radical reform.”

2. “THE flagship policy of free personal care for the elderly will be drastically cut because of a cash crisis in town halls across Scotland, leaked council documents have revealed.”

3. “ALEX Salmond is facing a second parliamentary inquiry into claims SNP ministers have interfered in Scotland's planning rules.”

4. “THEIR campaign to clear cheap drink from Scotland's supermarket shelves has displayed all the fervour of a group of American Prohibitionists. But SNP ministers were facing embarrassment last night after it emerged that online shoppers can buy cut-price alcohol from adverts on their own website.”

………Time for a holiday Mr (or is it Ms?) Barnes! A very long one. Have a rest, ponder, unwind, relax. Iron out the bitterness. Get real. Have a swim to clean up your Brown nose. Come back when you have a more open mind, capable of delivering fair reporting, or else go and work for Labour Weakly (pun intended!).
62

Ian C,

People's Democratic Republic of Fife (Home of the 02/03/2008 08:05:24
It is about time ALL Scots realised that Labour's game is to try to totally destroy anything sensible the Scottish Government proposes whether by witholding cash or any other means.

I met "The Broon" twice in the 90s. I think Putin must be his hero these days. As for Wooden Top Wendy.....she is a joke and broke the law !

It is time the Scots moved to indepedence; at least then Broon's Fife (would he move house to England ?) may move from the worst roads in the UK and provide decent funding care for OAPs which does not involved long term bed blocking (14 OAPs in all so far in my father's ward at the Queen Margaret Hospital) et al.

Frankly, the term "Fly Fifer" (sleakit Fifer) suits the Broon down to the deck.

63

Phil C,

02/03/2008 08:19:57
Further to #62....

Found another Barnes' nugget. The hatchet is sharp today!

5. "AN SNP minister was at the centre of a political storm last night after she claimed that her party "never said" it would write off student debt during last year's victorious election campaign."
64

It's me!,

02/03/2008 08:28:21
If a local income tax doesn't cost central government one additional penny there can be only one reason for this story. Labour is running scared. With whinging, whining Wendy as their representative in Scotland they have big problems. Gordon Brown and others need to take a look at themselves and remember that they were elected to represent their constituents and not impose their political prejudices upon us.

A governments first duty is to defend this country from incursion and not to attack others in the middle east. Bring back the troops. We won the war but lost the peace because American politicians believed in the Rambo films and thought the Arabs etc would just roll over. £450 million is chickenfeed in comparison with the cost of the war. Get real. We are not longer a world power. Start looking after your constituents, not yourselves!
65

walter,

02/03/2008 08:28:41
An individual will produce evidence that they are on a low income, the council can then work out how much of a reduction on the council tax they are entitled to, the council then claim this difference back from the government.
This money is not Scotlands money as the SNP are trying to claim, it is paid to whichever council the individual lives in.
If a person claiming CT benefits moves from Edinburgh to Leeds then Edinburgh does not continue to get the money Leeds will start to get it as that is where the person lives.
Although not in these words this article is pointing this inconvenient truth out that is why it is being attacked by the minority that support the SNP and their independence agenda.
This minority do not like the truth and will verbally abuse any one of the majority who has the audacity to point the truth out.
66

Melly,

Sussex 02/03/2008 08:30:24
#34
Ah Wullie, there`s none so blind as those that cannot see !
67

Carlung,

Haddington 02/03/2008 08:33:35
Joe, Berwick 02/03/2008 08:20:29
Why should English taxpayers subsidise Salmond's minority government? They are seething already at having to subsidise
Salmond's other giveaways. Salmond is a Cuckoo in the UK nest.

Right enough! It's time Scotland got to keep it's own revenues (including oil & whisky) and like Norway become independent and, free from strutting around the world making illegal wars, become wealthy.

England would wither like a grape on the vine. Bring it on - the sooner the better.

PS Come and collect your Trident.
68

It's me!,

02/03/2008 08:40:29
#66. Joe, Berwick. Don't fall for it. Scotland is not getting more than England. All that has happened is that the Scots have elected politicians who are spending their budget much more wisely than those south of the border. It is up to you in England to elect politicians south of the border who will do likewise. It's in your hands! Don't let Westminster policitians cause a division between us to allow them to rule over us rather than for us. Ask your politicians why they are not spending prudently!
69

Phil C,

02/03/2008 08:43:48
Joe #66 Put pressure on the authorities to regain Berwick's place in Scotland. A big majority of your fellow citizens want to do that too!

Scotland's oil has been heavily subsidising England for years, and continues to do so. A bit more gratitude would be nice.
70

thinking,

Scotland 02/03/2008 08:43:52
How can you rebate something that doesn't exist?
If council tax ceases to be then you can't rebate it.
71

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 08:44:48
The vast majority of experts have condemned the proposals for local income tax to replace the Council Tax, and we should listen to them.
72

Linda,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 08:52:26
AT a time when record oil revenues (over $100 a barrel)are flowing from North Sea and adding an extra £3 billion to Westminster Treasury last year it is Westminster who are being childish.

It also proves Labour do not believe in further devolution and independence is now the only solution for a progressive and fairer Scotland.
73

NBJT,

North Berwick 02/03/2008 08:53:34
It's Sunday morning and I am going to simplify things.

INDEPENDENCE now!!!!

Please ignore the rubish that the English controlled press write!

74

Scudder,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 08:54:05
Oh dear, the Micky Mouse paper does it yet again ,..,
Did Eddie Barnes, your anti SNP Liebour editor say this headline would be ok ? Time he was fired !
You're newspaper is a disgrace to its name ,.,.just as yon extinct wee labour party is a disgrace to politics ,.,.
It's OUR money and they simply cannot keep it ,,,
all Alex needs is a good lawyer on the case.
Roll on bloody Independence.
75

Phil C,

02/03/2008 08:54:27
It would be profoundly dishonest if an equivalent amount to Scotland's current share of Council Tax Benefit was not paid in Scotland. Labour's filthy track record has surely not sunk this low.
76

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 08:54:28
Joe Berwick

I can only assume that you are new to this debate and have not quite picked up on the issues.

Where did you get the idea that Scotland is somehow subsidised by England?

This argument has long since been discredited and is now rarely used by even the most cringing of unionists.

In terms of the Council tax benefit debate, none is this money is new.

Westminster currently returns to Scotland some £400 million of our own money, by way of a central subsidy of local government expenditure.

The SNP, (and seemingly the Lib Dems), are merely requesting that this return of funds continues as before.

If Westminster do decide to reduce the allocation of Scottish generated funds back to Scotland as a result of a difference of opinion upon how Local Government is financed, then those parties advocating such a reduction will surely pay a heavy price via the ballot box.

Who is likely to be seen as the champions of the people of Scotland?

Those who for reasons of spite and hubris would deny Scotland access to even more of our own funds, or those who would grasp the thistle of the wise allocation Scottish generated taxation?
77

It's me!,

02/03/2008 08:57:29
#75 & 77. Let's have another wee piece of legislation that says the equivalent rebate will be given in the event of the abolition of council tax in Scotland. Job done! Oh! You would rather find reasons for not doing positive things and remain negative. Listen! We are not longer prepared to be treated like a colony by Westminster politicians who think London is the centre of the universe. We are big boys now and can look after ourselves just like nations of similar size like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Ireland and others outside Europe. It's time England stood on its own feet too.
78

Carlung,

02/03/2008 08:59:35
Q. Who writes these anti-Scottish articles for 'England on Sunday'?
A. Probably they issue from the Labour speech writers in Transport House.
Q. Why do the editors go along with this blatant bias?
A. They are in the pay of their English owners.
Q. How do we remedy this state of affairs?
A. Stop buying the rag.
Q. Surely we can do more than that?
A. Yes, keep voting SNP, particularly in Gordon Brown's constituency.
79

The Ninja,

Bonnie Scotland 02/03/2008 09:01:50
"if there is no council tax in Scotland there will be no council tax benefit.”

Fair enough comment, so is this:
If there is no oil in England....

;-)
80

,

02/03/2008 09:07:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
81

shivago8,

livingston 02/03/2008 09:11:50
The sooner we go it on our own,the better,the poll tax,water rates are flawed,unfair and rotten.
Water rates----2 people living in a house pay double what 4 people do,you dont need to be a brain surgeon to see something is wrong here,LUDICROUS.
82

Linda,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 09:13:33
Brain damaged 88,

Did your hear what George Foulkes said last week?
“The SNP are on a very dangerous tack at the moment. What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the border in a number of areas."

BBCs Colin MacKay intervened to say: "Is that a bad thing?"

Lord George said: "No, but they are doing it deliberately…"
83

Linda,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 09:17:06
Is six anti SNP stories a record for SoS?

Latest opinion polls and local government election results still put SNP well ahead of Labour with Tories and Lib Dems trailing.

Just consider the alternatives.
84

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 02/03/2008 09:22:37
Y A W N.

An English churnalist, (who's more than welcome to work, rest and play in Scotland) writing in a wholly owned English paper, with a pro-England bias that is only 'The Scotsman' in name.

Perhaps some independent minded entrepreneur can create a newspaper based in London, staff it with Scottish journos, promote a heavily pro-independence bias in all its reporting and call it 'The Englishman'.

85

,

02/03/2008 09:26:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
86

Cheryl here,

Scotland 02/03/2008 09:27:57
Well, at least Nicol Stephen of the Lib Dems now wants to work with the SNP to scrap council tax according to news last night.

As far as Westminster saying English taxpayers subsidise Scotland...they must have forgotten where North Sea oil is coming from. Let's see the money go directly to Scotland rather than divert it through London and see who's supporting who.
87

brownlie,

glasgow 02/03/2008 09:28:57
52 John Blackley

OK Lets play "what if"
"You say what if the British Government is serious and refuses to fund Salmond's plans"
The money is not the British Government's to refuse. It is a rebate that should be given back to Scotland from our money in order to off-set the cost of the council tax - no matter how the tax is administered.
In your "what if" scenario if our money is not given back by the British Government the "poll tax" demonstations would pale into insignificance. The Scottish Government would have to resign and an election would inevitably have to follow. Is that what the Labour party really want at this time - I think not because the consequences for them would be catastrophic.
88

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 09:29:03
#87 AM2

You appear to be ummm spitting against the wind.

Your mob have lost the debate on the principle of the income based LIT as opposed to a notional property tax in the form of the current Council Tax.

With the support of the Lib Dems, Greens and Margo MacD, the SNP Government can muster sufficient support to (yet again) carry the day in any debate on this subject in the Scottish Parliament.

The real question at issue here is “Will Westminster attempt to thwart the will of the Scottish people by reducing the repatriation of Scottish generated funds previously directed towards the funding of Local Government?”

If the answer is “Yes”, then this can only lead to a further boost to the already existing groundswell of support for the concept of independence.
89

Nikostratos,

02/03/2008 09:32:48
#92 Linda,

"Is six anti SNP stories a record for SoS?"

Linda there is so much material to choose from these days.........snp honeymoon coming to an end...........promises to keep.........promises to pay for........Reality banging on the door....Oh dear
90

,

02/03/2008 09:35:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
91

,

02/03/2008 09:37:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
92

Phil C,

02/03/2008 09:42:16
I take it the photo accompanying the headline is James 'no friends' Purnell, that obsequious little oink who pastes himself into photographs!

His Work and Pensions Department have already robbed this country blind through stealth taxation. Now he wants to deprive Scotland of her democratic rights and our money!

We need to wipe that smug look off his face.
93

Philip Watson,

02/03/2008 09:43:53
Independence is the only way to go...
94

Pilrig.,

Livingston 02/03/2008 09:44:01
Eddie's been doin his tour of the Labour drinkin dens
95

It's me!,

02/03/2008 09:45:02
#87 AM2. Westminster politicians are interfering in the wishes of the Scottish people who have elected MSP's to represent them. Your 'natives should do as they are told' attitude comes from an time when when blacks and people with slanty eyes should remember who the masters are. We have, thankfully, come a long way from these days. Your attitude is one in which you believe Sweden, Denmark and Norway should have remained one country. Surprise, they are all capable nations on their own.
96

Gordon, Canonmills,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 09:48:02
“Salmond tax plan in tatters”

“SNP faces probe over Aviemore planning row”

“Salmond tax plan in tatters”

Today’s “Scotland” section contains three negative headlines concerning the SNP, none of which leads to a story of any substance, and all written by Eddie Barnes, “Political Editor”.

I bought the Scotsman for many years and the SoS from its inception. It always called itself “Scotland’s newspaper”, and I hoped that this would one day be true.

I have now given up that hope. The style has degenerated continually and is now hard to distinguish from the red-top tabloids. The editorial line which, if never pro-independence, did at one time make an effort to be objective, has evolved into cheap anti-SNP pamphleteering.

The demise of this newspaper has been really sad to witness.
97

JimC,

Kilmarnock 02/03/2008 09:48:43
So its the same tactic as Attendance allowance is it. Scots put into the tax system yet as soon as we differ from the rest of the UK our money somehow is unavailable. Does it matter what system is in use, what name we give it? There will always be those who are entitled to benefit yet Nu-Labour seem to be trying to mislead people by saying no council tax then no council tax benefit. Yet if its based on a local tax and ability to pay then the rebate claimed would be smaller for many. As for PAYE, as Brown last time round changed the tax system with his stealth tax (remember that 10p) then businesses simply had their wages software updated to take account. The same will happen again as its part of their licence agreement to get updates as the system changes. Who wrote this story, your bias is blatantly showing.
98

,

02/03/2008 09:48:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
99

,

02/03/2008 09:50:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
100

Fabius Maximus,

02/03/2008 09:53:36
I don't get it. Council tax benefit is paid to individuals, and by them to councils. If the council tax is an income tax now, surely if you don't pay one - ie, don't earn enough - you won't pay the other? So the money to fund those who don't earn enough to pay income tax to contribute to the cost of their councils will have to come from those of us who do? And if the UK government no longer has to make a block grant to Scottish councils, the income tax paid by people resident in Scotland should be adjusted accordingly.
In that way, the Scottish Government would not need UK subsidy. The subsidy woulld come exclusively from Scots tax payers. Or would that just demonstrate to every Scots tax payer that the UK subsidy works in our favour?
I don't know, I ask in the spirit of earnest inquiry.
101

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 09:53:51
#77, AM2.

Here we go again!

Yet again, your own logic let's you down. After making it crystal clear, that LPT would attract CT rebate, you then say, in #77, that CT and CT rebates are inextricably linked in Law. "No CT, no relief.".

If Burt, having received advice, from the DWP and Legal experts, that relief would still apply if LPT (#72) was introduced, why does this advice not, equally, apply to LIT?

As for Mr. Purnell's comments, all he has to say is that there are no extra monies, as a result of the change from CT to LIT, being allocatedto Scotland. That, after all will be the fact.
Mr. Purnell's real problem will be to explain, to the English & Welsh electors, why Westminster cannot/will not introduce this system in E&W.

I'm sure that everyone on this board would be pleased to hear your rationalisation of your #77, 72.
102

Phil C,

02/03/2008 09:54:37
Brain Haemorrhage & AM2. You deserve each other!
103

scottish person,

paisley 02/03/2008 09:56:01
Surprise surprise, the hootsmon wont let us comment on the wee harry sideshow. The hero from helmund hill. I bet he's on his back steaming drunk as usual. I hope this inspires all the hooray henry's to join up and hopefully disappear. Rose Gentles, my thoughts are with you, and not this theatre.
104

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 09:58:00
#99

The concept of UDI is an interesting one.

However, until such times as the pro-independence parties achieve an overall majority of the popular vote in both Holyrood and Westminster elections, the question does not really arise.

The official SNP stance upon this issue is that the question of Independence should be put to the electorate of Scotland in a referendum.

Should such a referendum result in an endorsement of Independence, then the SNP Government would immediately engage in talks with the Westminster Government regarding the transfer of all powers back to Edinburgh.

Democratic, and with the support of a majority of the electorate.

What would your problem be with that?

105

Phil C,

02/03/2008 09:58:04
#111 Fabius

You've got it. We pay taxes to Edinburgh, not Westminster and we don't get a block grant. Excellent! Brilliant!
106

,

02/03/2008 09:58:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
107

,

02/03/2008 10:03:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
108

Phil C,

02/03/2008 10:05:54
#119 Rab

Calm down! Calm down!

Nobody's been let down yet. Just those strange unionists trying to manufacture mischief and flex their tired muscles. If we can afford a shiny red train set for Edinburgh, we must be loaded. So no worries!
109

It's me!,

02/03/2008 10:06:02
If anyone thinks England is bankrolling Scotland try this link from the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20060130.shtml
and learn of the panic in Westminster when the Nationalists actually underestimated their claims of oil wealth in the seventies. An English MP stood up in Parliament and had a motion passed that said an previously unheard of number of yes votes had to be achieved to afford devolution. Of course, the figure wasn't reached and Westminster had bled us dry since them with to fund troubles in Ireland, Falklands and Iraq. I can think of better uses for such wealth.
110

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 10:06:04
#109, AM2.

I now add this post to my #112.

Please give us your rational, or is it Burt, DWP and the expert legal advice that is wrong?
111

11+failed,

the pans 02/03/2008 10:08:07
Mr Purnell must exist on another planet "If someone's council tax is £200" either that, or he is referring to the council tax on a doocot
112

Phil C,

02/03/2008 10:09:39
#126 He probably gets a Labour MP's subsidised rate!
113

Thistledhu,

Fife 02/03/2008 10:12:46
more Labour media manipulation

hard fact is Salmond is running rings round labour, labour can only hold on and hope there is no election for some time as they would be reduced to a mere pressure group as it stands at the moment

sitting here in gordon browns constituency his hold on what was once a labour stronghold is slipping i wonder if gordon is eyeing the situations vacant column?
114

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 10:16:00
#115, AM2.

Yet again, a non-answer. If LPT would not require new legislation, why should LIT? Your response that LPT is a property tax is disingenuous, at best.

However, you obviously know this. As you normally do when you have no answer, you leave the debate.
115

,

02/03/2008 10:16:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

,

02/03/2008 10:18:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
117

John1,

Stirling 02/03/2008 10:28:33
I see the standard of 'debate' is being maintained. It is hardly surprising that most people wishing to discuss a subject sensibly have given up on this site. Amazing that so many SNP/Independence supporters spend so much time here.
On the subject of the report, a local income tax would have its own problems but anything would be better than the present unfair system. The 'Poll Tax' (a Labour propoganda name - it wasn't a Poll Tax) was much fairer. Labour's excuse for not paying the Block Grant does not stand up - we all pay national (UK) taxes so the Block Grant should continue, whatever system is used to raise the 'local' part of taxation.
Salmond will be delighted with Labour's reaction. I expect he will continue to stir things up in the hope of getting unthinking English voters to support his demand for Independence, even though most Scots don't want it.
118

Queen D,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 10:37:12
How are the circulation figures Eddie??
Dropping are they?
119

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 02/03/2008 10:37:41
#111 Fabius is correct to an extent. If there is a 'local' income tax, there is no need for council tax benefit, if it is based on the current income tax system. However, people in Scotland would stil be paying the same national imcome tax, and so stil subsidising UK council tax benefit. Therefore, Westminster should not be talking about with-holding the vast amounts they give to the Scottish gov. to pay for CTB.
120

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 02/03/2008 10:42:21
There's lots of people in England & Wales who would like to see the SNP's plan for a local income tax implemented, and for it to work. Then there would be no reason not to go ahead with it elsewhere in the UK. It's got to be better than the Council Tax, which has been used by both Labour and the Tories as a stealth tax. For this reason they are both dead set against replacing it, because a local income tax which would be much more transparent
121

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 02/03/2008 10:43:15
However, it does shound very much like the SNP are leading us all up the garden path with the '3%' figure if them are talking about a requirement for £450MM of 'efficiency savings' in order to achieve the 3% Scottish income tax figure.
122

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 02/03/2008 10:44:04
132 "most people wishing to discuss a subject sensibly have given up on this site"

The demise of the Scotsman is quite tragic. Sort of like a print version of the Tram shambles.

Suppose it's been around for 100 years, so some fine day in the distant future it might re-emerge under different ownership /editorship as a quality paper.
123

Jings Crivens,

Paisley 02/03/2008 11:00:28
#72 AM"

Has raised a very valid point which nobody seems to have picked up on. If the the SNP deliberately mislead the electrorate by misquoting the Burt Report, it doesn't say much for our ability to trust AS and crew.

Also If Council Tax is Replaced by Income TAx (shades of the Poll TAx to me) then why should the UK subsiise it.
124

Shug,

02/03/2008 11:06:30
Like the "free care for the elderly" policy the SNP knew they could never afford their policies, but hey it got them into power, and now they can blame Labour for the fact the monies not there.

Before all the SNiPers set their sights on me I should expalin that the majority of SNP policies are good, particularly the free care for the eldrely and the local income tax. It is just a pity they don't have the balls to do what is actually necessary to fund them, e.g 10 % increase in income tax. Political suicide but we need to decide what our priorities are and then implimnt the fiscal policies to pay for them. If you don't like it move somewhere else.
125

Jings Crivens,

02/03/2008 11:10:43
132 John1

Spot on with your comments, I don't know why the Scotsman bothers having these posts, very few people want to enter in a debate of any quality


126

Carlung,

Haddington 02/03/2008 11:12:52
I seem to recall that about 25 years ago Southern Ireland scrapped their council Tax (or Rates as it was known). The replacement income was one and a half pence in the pound increase in income tax. It was collected centrally and distributed to Councils in a ratio that reflected their population and other factors such as a poverty index.
You would have a riot on your hands if you suggested to the Irish that they should go back to Council Taxes!
127

Level Headed,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 11:15:25
I find it slightly ironic that in the week the Graduate endowment fee was abolished, we are having this discussion about a local income tax which will hit any part time earnings full time students make, whereas they are exempt under council tax.

'The SNP claimed only the wealthiest 10% of the country would have to pay more, and then only face a 1% increase'

I hope they are still not trying to claim that now!, its a hundred times more complex than that! You need to do the calculations on what your annual earnings are, what you are paying now in council tax (and then add on Water which will still be seperate), who you are sharing your property with (and will they be eligible now or with the new system?)and any discounts you currently have.

Suffice to say, a typical band D property in Edinburgh pays £1,169 council tax and £366 for water for the financial year we are in. If it's a single person paying (25% discount) then that drops to £877 council tax and £274 for water. Take the 3% figure the SNP want and that person starts paying more than the £877 council tax when they pass £29,233 annual earnings. Would that person consider themselves to be in the top 10% of earners?

Or 2 people sharing? You loose the discount so overall figures currently are £1,169 tax and £366 in water. They'd currently be paying £585 a year in CT, so as soon as their individual earnings go above £19,500, they are paying more, is that a top 10% wage for Scotland??

Salmond and Sweeney are 2 of the most shrewd politicians I have ever seen and they'll know all this. I suspect when push comes to shove then resolve to stick with freezing the council tax and blaming the fall of LIT on failing to get a parliamentary majority (like the ditching of student debt) or Westminster. There are big risks with how people may react to LIT if it every happened, it is not this dissimiliar to the poll tax.



128

kimba,

02/03/2008 11:18:43
LOL,go gordy!
129

Jings Crivens,

02/03/2008 11:19:34
140 Shug

Shug don't be afraid of speaking the truth, just ignore the SNiPers and only respond to those individuals who have the intellect to enter into a rational arguement.

Like any new government, the SNP administration is now having to turn promises into commitments and finding that it is impossible to delivery on everything. How they manage this will be a test of the Executive true mettle.

The SNiPers must recognise that if AS drops the ball then the medis will notice and report it. So SNiPers don't shoot the messanger, have the courage to recogise your party's mistakes and get on your SNP MSP and ask them about it. Otherwise you are no better than the Labour Drones you keep going on about
130

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 11:19:56
#139

You are no really very bright are you?

Do you think that Scottish aspirations should be constrained by current Westminster legalisation?

In this attitude you display the epitome of the Scottish Cringe.

We canny do this, we are too wee, too insignificant, too stupid, too poorly educated, too dependent………………………..

We are in the process of chasing you clowns

131

Media 1,

cape town 02/03/2008 11:19:59
Salmond is a novice politician, we can all see that.

The problem Scotland appears to be faced with is "Subservient SNP supporter mindset"

In otherwords, Salmond can get away with anything in the eyes of the subservient SNP crew..A dangerous cocktail indeed, especially when the leader is out of his depth and hell bent on making sure that HIS ideologies are adhered to without first hearing the voices of the people in a referendum.

You cant trust a man who pushes harder for independence, than he does for a referendum for independence.
132

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 11:22:13
The point of devolution was that Westminster would give the Scottish parliament money and they would decide how to spend it.
If Westminster is going to break that agreement then i can't see what the Scottish government is supposed to do.

It looks like the Labour party in Westminster is slowly trying to choke the life out of the Scottish parliament by cutting off it's money supplies.
133

,

02/03/2008 11:22:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
134

IainA,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 11:25:52
If the Westminster parliament declines to fund the Holyrood parliaments' plans to amend or alter the tax laws, that is their prerogative. They aren't saying that the SNP can't do it, they're saying that that they won't fund it.

This seems to me to be the way devolved government is supposed to work. If the Westminster parliament chose to change their tax gathering schemes, they would have to fund it themselves, why not the Scottish parliament?

Surely its up to Holyrood to cut its cloth to suit its pockets?

Mind you, this article was written by Eddie Barnes, so I do tend to take anything he says which involves the labour party and the SNP with a very large pinch of salt. I believe that he may be considered a trifle partisan when it comes to statements by the labour party :-)
135

Jimmy the Pie,

02/03/2008 11:26:43
AM2 - Various posts

When Scotland gets her independence (which won't be long), do you think you'll continue living in Scotland (if in fact you do live here) or will you leave and live elsewhere???
136

Jings Crivens,

02/03/2008 11:27:02
143 Level Headed

You have raised some very valid points and it will be interesting to see if you get any response. I agree the LIT sounds like the Poll Tax and look at the damage that did to the Tory Party.

As you say AS and Sweeny are very astute politicians and I wonder if they know that this is one policy they do not want to deliver on.
137

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 02/03/2008 11:28:41
#149 You can comment on the story below the video report if you wish, but why should you wish to read a newspaper you so clearly hold in contempt.
138

Jimmy the Pie,

02/03/2008 11:29:56
#147 Media 1

Sounds like you've been oot in the sun too long. If that is unavoidable you could try wearing a bunnet (just ask if you don't know what a bunnet is!)
139

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 11:30:12
'If the Westminster parliament declines to fund the Holyrood parliaments' plans to amend or alter the tax laws, that is their prerogative. They aren't saying that the SNP can't do it, they're saying that that they won't fund it.'

That's like saying if a child decides to change their diet it's a parent's prerogative not to give them any food.
This isn't extra money, it's existing money that Westminster is taking away. Westminster reserves the right to fund the Scottish parliament. In which case it has a responsibility to do it properly, not choke the life out of it because it suits their anti-snp agenda.
140

Jings Crivens,

02/03/2008 11:32:33
149

Agree with 153 why are you bothering posting here,

141

,

02/03/2008 11:34:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
142

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 11:34:38
#139, Help ma boab.

Read #72 again. Read, clearly, how Burt is disembling.

LPT qualifies for the retntion of the rebate but, somehow, curiously, LIT does not. Please explain.

#140, Shug.

Your suggestion could be enacted with Independence. It will certainly not be under Westminster.

#143, Level Headed.

In any taxation system there will always be anomalies. I happen to be of the belief that there are less in a progressive system, like LIT.
143

Media 1,

cape town 02/03/2008 11:35:37
Jimmy ate awe the pies

Yes bunnet! Is that like, the man wae the bunnet dun it?
Those old Scottish sayings are charming are they not?

Speaking of sun, perhaps Salmond could do Scotland a favour and retire from politics and move to Spain...
144

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 02/03/2008 11:37:15
#143 Level Headed

Good post.
145

Jings Crivens,

02/03/2008 11:37:31
146 bully wee alba

Admit it you didn't read my post at all, its apparent from the bog standard SNiPer answer.

AM72 has provided evidence that the SNP appear to have deliberately misquoted this report to make it appear that it supported the LIT when in fact it didn't.

This is a serious charge usually made by the SNP against Labour and instead of entering into a debate about it you respond with abuse.

I hope to god you are not typical of the SNP supporters

146

Jings Crivens,

02/03/2008 11:40:10
158 frank mcbride,

I did it was clear to me
147

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 02/03/2008 11:40:30
Perhaps someoneout there would care to enlighten me as to where the £450MM funding gap for the proposed 3% Scottish income tax will be coming from?
148

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 11:43:39
#147

You appear to be somewhat confused.

Who exactly is opposed to a referendum on Independence?

Alex Salmond is “out of his depth”?

Jeez ohh……………you are not really well informed about the current Scottish political situation.

Do some more research, your tribe is being discarded, time after time,.

The future is Scottish!

Fold your tents Unionists, you have been found out, and the game’s a bogey!


149

Black Five,

edinburgh 02/03/2008 11:44:11
This shows up what this Labour crowd are all about.Absulute Scum.
150

Carlung,

Haddington 02/03/2008 11:45:03
"Salmond's tax plan in tatters" screams "England on Sunday".
.
Hurray, hurray, a nation rejoices! Council Taxes will remain!
Above inflation increases will continue!

Sighs of relief all round, as London Labour will continue to dominate Scottish politics.

Just who do the Scottish people think they are?

The nail that sticks up will be battered down. Long Live Stalin!
151

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 11:45:33
It would be nice if just once the unionists would take Scotland's side rather than always automatically getting behind Westminster.
152

happyhibbie,

the Inch, Edinburgh 02/03/2008 11:45:49
Did the Stinking Nose Pickers learn nothing from Thatcher and the poll tax. If scotland becomes fully independent under these numpties there will be the biggest brain drain in the history of humanity.
153

IainA,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 11:46:11
#155 Richardinho

Well, I kind of agree and I kind of don't. The £400 million council tax rebate we currently get is just that, a rebate of council tax. If we scrap council tax, why should we then get a rebate for a non-existent scheme?

There may be a case for negotiating a funding package for LIT, but I would think it would need to be treated as a new funding package.

In which case the Westminster government would be perfectly at liberty to refuse to fund it.

If you pay a plumber to fix your sink and he installs a new toilet without asking you, you wouldn't pay him for it.

Of course, that implies an employer/employee relationship between the parliaments which is not (or should not) be accurate, but surely that's the general idea?
154

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 11:48:07
# Level Headed & Help ma boab.

To equate LIT with the Poll Tax is puerile.

The Poll Tax was a flat rate tax, charge on everyone, regardless of ability to pay.

LIT is a percentage tax levied on each according to their ability to pay. It does, however, need to address the question of those who live on majoritively/wholly on UNearned income.

Spinning distortion does you case no good.
155

Nikostratos,

02/03/2008 11:49:01
#165

and with me unionist axe its goodbye bullys rant

You appear[[chop
[[ to be somewhat confused.

Who exactly is opposed to a[[chop
referendum on Independence?

Alex Salmond is “out of his depth”?

Jeez ohh……………you are not[[chop

chop......... really well informed about the current Scottish political situation.

Do some more research,[[[chop
[[chopyour tribe is being discarded, time after time,.

The future is [
chop
......Scottish!

Fold your [[chop
tents Unionists, [[
chop......you have been found out, [[[[[
chop..chop....and the[[
chop game’s a bogey!

156

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 02/03/2008 11:51:26
What is 'local' about a local income tax, if your local authorities are not allowed to set the rate?
157

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 11:53:07
'Well, I kind of agree and I kind of don't. The £400 million council tax rebate we currently get is just that, a rebate of council tax. If we scrap council tax, why should we then get a rebate for a non-existent scheme?'

This money comes from somewhere. It's currently ear marked for Scotland, so if it's withdrawn it will simply be used to enrich another part of britain.

'rebate' strikes me as a slightly misleading term. This imply that the local income tax will produce less of a take than the current council tax. I'd imagine this was virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy at the moment.

If LIT is a tax cut, there is evidence that tax cuts actually increase the tax take. Since all the money would still go to westminster that would mean we were still entitled to a rebate of some sorts.

All this is very complicated, which is why such a heavy handed approach from Labour is so offensive. They have a duty to make devolution work, not thwart it at every turn because their party isn't in power.
158

Florence,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 11:53:33
Isn't this the same James Purnell cited recently in the press for juggling the status of his two homes in order to avoid paying tax and at the same time claiming the politicians second home allowance? Sorry to be so vague but it was something rather seedy. Par for the course, though.
159

The Gillie,

Esbjerg 02/03/2008 11:55:06
I must admit that i become a little confused when I hear both unionists and nationalists argue about Scotland’s place in the union. I can only presume that these posters are referring to the European Union, as the EU is the only game in town.
If one looks at the new EU map one will see that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales are independent nations which will become fully independent, functioning member states. What was formally known as England is divided into 9 regions. These regions within a generation will become fully elected independent assemblies reporting directly to Brussels and eventually Westminster will be dissolved. This has already been decided and signed under by a succession of UK governments.
London has already quietly been removed as the capital city of England. Unelected assemblies are being created at this very time across England without too much noise of course. A very good example of this was the funding mix up between Newcastle and Newcastle upon Tyne, which revealed that even though the NE had voted overwhelmingly against devolution never the less devolution has been thrust upon them regardless. Newcastle is already an EU region and its capital is Newcastle upon Tyne which is being funded directly with EU cash.
Many on these threads are missing the main point of what exactly is happening here. UK ministers are guilty of misdirection when they speak of “saving the union”. They have no intention of saving the union and are deliberately leading attention away from the signing of The Lisbon Treaty. No reader should be in any doubt that this is a transfer of sovereignty from Westminster to Brussels. After the treaty is ratified the EU will transfer total sovereignty to Scotland, Wales and NI.
The long and short of this post is that Scotland’s independence is already guaranteed by both the UK and the EU. Scotland’s independence will be quietly but effectively aided by the EU after the ratification of the Lisbon treaty. This is very impo
160

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 11:56:51
#163, Help ma boab.

What is clear?

That Burt is confused, or you agree with AM2?

#170, IainA,

Burt said, in his report that if LPT was introduced, the reate would stay. If LIT it would not. What is the difference using your plumber analogy?
161

The Gillie,

esbjerg 02/03/2008 11:57:03
This is very important for the EU, as the EU does not want to be seen as the force behind breaking up the UK i.e. England. When Scotland breaks away, the EU can fulfill its regionalization of England and claim that the UK was already defunct by Scotland’s succession.
162

Kaytoc,

Rural America 02/03/2008 11:57:41
Would some kind soul explain what Council Tax is predicated upon? I suspect I may have drawn incorrect conclusions from differing references to it.

Our tax system appears to be completely different from yours. 3p on the pound sounds wonderful. My tax burden is 36% because I live in a state that assesses state and local tax. We all pay Federal Income tax unless you make less than a certain amount which is considered poverty level. A portion of my payroll deductions goes to Social Security and Medicare (healthcare for the elderly). In states where you pay no state or local income tax the sales tax (your VAT) is higher.
If you own property you pay a Property Tax.
I appreciate the opportunity for greater understanding of the challenges you face.
163

Level Headed,

02/03/2008 11:57:47
158 # 'In any taxation system there will always be anomalies'

Absolutely, but Im not sure if the examples I give can just be described as 'anomalies' - Households in Edinburgh with 2 full time earners who collectively make more than £38,000 a year? - I would have thought that was relatively common? any Student earning money? , i.e. probably all of them!

What about people in big houses with large financial assets but no earned income? That probably is realtively infrequent enough to be an 'anomoly' - but the media will find examples if LIT finds the light of day, not making the government very popular with those on more modest incomes who have just discovered how the LIT will effect them.

There is another point I'd make, the SNP have a very laudable aim of radically increasing the amount of new homes (including social rented) we have in Scotland to combat the deepening house price and waiting list problems we are seeing, however LIT removes any incentive that a property based tax has use as effectively as possible the amount of land you have for building homes, in other words build big, it wont cost you more to live in it in terms of taxation. I think this contradicts that aim.

I dont think council tax is perfect, and its good to debate better alternatives before we seriously embrace them, but I just think this is one.

164

,

02/03/2008 11:58:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
165

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 02/03/2008 11:58:41
Of course Scotland should still get the money for CTB, as we would still be paying for it through income tax. I am more interested in this '£450MM of efficiency savings' that the SNP are talking about in order to make the 3% rate viable. Why are they not making £450MM of efficiency savings right now?
166

Jimmy the Pie,

02/03/2008 12:00:56
Nico - various demented posts

Have you been oot in the sun too long??
Stopped taking your medication??
Are the voices in your heed getting louder??
Will you be staying when Scotland gets her independence??
167

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/03/2008 12:01:08
#72 AM2 - I think you are jumping to conclusions. I believe Salmond will win this war with Westminster and the subsidy will remain when LIT is introduced. Time will tell, but the game is far from over on this one.
168

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 12:03:05
#60 William

Yes i know my info on that post was not yesterday but my point was that then and now this paper is in a state of decline both on hard copies and on the Internet.

The lack of balanced reporting is a disgrace for a "Quality" that claims to be the nations quality paper.

Also in allowing serial posters to bombard this and many other "political" forums is a complete turn of for the ordinary reader.

some posters have at their disposal facts and figures that seem to me only someone from a political organisation could have access to and then use this advantage to overwhelm customers of this paper.

I am not surprised that the poster AM2 is in fact linked to one of the main political parties as this person has shown on numerous occasions with his statistics although i have to admit that only a complete fool would actually take this guy seriously.

I reckon the online users only consist of around 40 users but equate to around 200 monikers on the news forums.

The style from the unionists is the same rhetoric under many monikers,shame because the forums are being wasted on complete bile.
169

Level Headed,

02/03/2008 12:05:20
181 - oops, bad typo! - last line should be 'I just think this isn't one'

171# - Where is the distortion? My understanding is that whether you earn £4,000 a year or £1,000,000 you would still pay 3% of your earnings? Surely I dont need to outline how that will have a much bigger impact on the former than the latter? It is not staged on ability to pay as Income tax is, there are no bands proposed.
3% for everyone, sounds pretty flat to me. Granted it isn't as bad as the poll tax becuase the former person would have paid a higher percentage of their income than the millionaire, but its a lot closer to it than the current system as people's earnings are very highly correlated with the size of property they live in, hence there is more recognition with the council tax.
170

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 12:06:25
I'm just about to go outside and enjoy the sunshine, but basically I see the situation as this;
Scotland raises a certain amount of money through Council Tax. For whatever reasons it receives a rebate back of 400m.
What the SNP propose to do is raise the same amount of money, but just through a different system.
Morally, I'd say that Westminster is bound not to stop this money.

Ideally, I would like Scotland to raise and spend all it's taxes. That would remove all these problems and would mean we wouldn't have this humiliation of going cap and hand to westminster then being refused for being too 'uppity'.
But that's not the situation at present. Westminster reserves the right to provide funding-therefore they should do it properly without political bias.
171

IainA,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 12:07:19
#174 Richardinho

Yes the money is earmarked for Scotland, but - and purely based on what the article says - it is specifically as a council tax rebate. No council tax, no rebate. I must admit actually I am a bit conflicted about us having a rebate at all, if England doesn't get one, why should we? I'm not a unionist (not particularly nationalist either, although I do slightly incline that way) and it seems to me that we should be trying to finance our government ourselves, without the benefit of support from Westminster.

#178 Frank McBride

To stretch a pretty poor analogy to it's limits, if you ask the plumber to put in a toilet, you should pay him for it.

Alternatively, its all about waste :-)
172

Kaytoc,

02/03/2008 12:08:10
181 Level Headed
"What about people in big houses with large financial assets but no earned income?"
We also pay income tax on interest of $400 or more.
173

subrosa,

02/03/2008 12:10:22
# 135

That's the real reason labour will do everything in its power to stop us having a fair system of local taxation. If they think one individual from Westminster will stop us making progress then they're so very wrong. I should think there are lots of Scottish labour MPs pondering the fact that they may have to do a day's work for their electorate sometime soon or they'll be another unemployed statistic.
174

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 02/03/2008 12:11:36
Being a disconnected ex-pat I can't quite get my head around what is happening here - can we simplfy things -would this simple analysis be correct?:-

Scotland/The Scottish Governement receives money from a pot in Westminister that is filled by revenue from Scotland - yes?

It has been proven that Scotland is not subsidised by the rest of the UK - yes?

The Scottish government is elected to govern in it's own style by the people of Scotland - one of these devolved areas is how local government is funded - yes?

This money that may be 'blocked' is currently paid to the Scottish Government - Yes?

The Scottish Government wishes to set up a new method for financing local government and Westminister are saying that they will not pay this 400 million because it will not be a 'council tax' rebate - yes?

If all of the above are answered by 'yes' this action by Westminister makes no sense unless viewed as an action to thwart the democratically elected governement of Scotland and the people of Scotland.

Do labour want to be blown out of the water in Scotland? Labour's action's stink of political sour grapes and a vain attempt to say 'we are still in control'

It is on days like this that I am filled with two emotions:

I am glad I do not inhabit the same hemisphere as the Labour Party and it's lackies

A strong desire to jump on a plane straight to London, jump out and batter the feck out of Purnell/Brown or any other Labourite.

What a bunch of slippery $hithouse rats
175

,

02/03/2008 12:11:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
176

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 12:12:17
172
Niko
I think you are too fond of playing with your chopper.
177

IainA,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 12:15:15
#193 Methalions

And the south shall rise again?

Did you forget to take your lithium today?
178

Miss Jean Brodie,

02/03/2008 12:16:50
Eddie Barnes - Blind, deaf and dumb political editor.
179

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 12:18:28
#196

I disagree with you, he is worse than that.
180

,

02/03/2008 12:18:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
181

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 12:18:53
195
IainA

Methalions comma

Is a Unionist troll, ignore it.

It sometimes goes away.
182

subrosa,

02/03/2008 12:21:22
# 181 'What about people in big houses with large financial assets but no earned income?'

What's your definition of 'big'? I'm a pensioner, I live in a three bed house which has gone up in value recently. I have no income other than pensions. Yes with LIT I would be better off but why should I leave the house I've resided in for 25 years if I can afford to stay in it? I scrimp now to meet utility costs but I'll manage for a few years yet if I'm very careful.

I have no intention of giving up a home I've worked over 40 years for just to ensure that some people, who have never worked in their lives, feel better.

Also there are plenty more people in a similar situation to my own. We're not that small a minority I assure you and we deserve a fair local tax.

183

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 12:21:25
Hunner bagging troll?
184

subrosa,

02/03/2008 12:21:48
Oh! 200 - first time ever :)
185

Phil C,

02/03/2008 12:21:51
This kind of Westminster speak panders to the grey people of Scotland. The main thing in tatters is unionist credibility these days.

AM2 and his small minded chums, walter, DunciE, Meeja1, Slavering Voice, Kimba Kong, Brain Haemorrhage and others in their wee gang seem terrified of progress for some reason. They'll stay around wherever they are as they have no appetite for change.

This unionist rag bag of muppetry, with their feet in lead shoes, daily try to rattle the progressive locals with trivial point scoring. Mainly of Labour/Tory leanings these are the parasites on this country of ours. They would suck the lifeblood out of Scotland if they could.

They would rather see us continue as a little piece of that pompous little land of hope and glory, England, rather than be masters of our own destiny.
186

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 12:22:53
200
Sorry subrosa assumed the meths troll would be at 200.
187

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 12:22:56
How strange, only yesterday the Scotsman was lauding local income tax as the Lib Dem flagship policy, with Nicol Stephen bizarrely calling on the SNP to "help" him implement it. Sureley it is the Lib Dem plan in tatters, as the SNP was only going to help them with it?
188

Conway,

02/03/2008 12:27:08
So now its New Labour picking fights with the Scottish Parliament,refusing to release information about the Lockerbie bomber and now threatening to withold money that belongs to the Scottish Taxpayer well done New Labour .
189

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 12:40:06
#187, Level Headed.

The distortion was equating LIT, a percentage based tax based on the ability to pay, with the Poll Tax, which was a flat-rate tax imposed on everyone regardless of their abilty to pay.

LIT is based on current tax contribution, with those who are currently below the tax threshhold exempt e.g. State pensioners, students earning below c£5 500.

Therefore, Student earning £5 000, LIT = £0: State pensioner - £5 250, LIT = £0: Worker earning £15 500, LIT = £300: Worker earning £45 500, LIT = £1 200.

If you genuinely wish a debate, please inform yourself on the salient points.
190

happyhibbie,

The Inch, Edinburgh 02/03/2008 12:42:03
The UK government should be giving the SNP every encouragement to implement the crazy LIT policy. Like lemmings going over a cliff the slippery misspelt fish and his cohorts would consign themselves to political oblivion.
191

puskas,

East kilbride 02/03/2008 12:44:14
Eddie Barnes it shouldn't shock anyone that you are stupid enough to put your name to another non-story..

Another Barnes Fable... lol.
192

Phil C,

02/03/2008 12:45:19
#208 Frank

To be fair, those on very low incomes only paid 10% and they got that back in increased benefits. Those on high incomes paid the same as those on low/middle incomes though. It was a fairer system than Council Tax or Rates.
193

It's me!,

02/03/2008 12:47:05
#142. Well said. It has been tried and proved it works. Just get on with it and stop whinging. England and Wales will follow our example. They are just as fed up as us over this unfair tax. Think of the savings that can be made in local authorities the length and breadth of the UK. Hundreds of collection agencies done away with to be replaced by existing Revenue and Customs staff. There will be no extra work for them, they will just process cheques of higher value.
194

Tris,

02/03/2008 12:51:14

This story is well signposted on the home page.

Main story.... other top stories..... and politics.

You think they want us to read this?

You make a good point Ayrshire Scot. If it's a Liberal policy when it's working, how come it's an SNP policy when it goes butt up?

~33 Castaway. You wonder why they let the Noble Baron on the radio, don't you? I mean every time he opens his mouth he makes an idiot of himself. Perhaps he's unused to good results coming as a result of deliberate actions.... under Labour is anything good that happens to ordinary people part of an unintended consequence? Must be that blue blood that does it. Saps the intellect. He's almost as much of a liability to Labour as Cairns.
195

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 12:53:01
#189, IainA.

Exactly my point! A rebate is money previously overpaid, repaid.

If I overpay the plumber, he is morally obliged to return the overpayment.
196

Nikostratos,

02/03/2008 12:53:56
#184 Jimmy the Pie

You could have a valid point with the medication.........The Unionist voices are getting louder and louder.even at night when i am trying to sleep..

Will you be staying when Scotland gets her independence??

If it were ever to happen (unlikely i know) I'm probably going to be acquainted with the The Blairquhan Dule Tree

when I take the high road.........


http://www.forestry.gov.uk/images/Blairquhan.jpg/$FILE/Blairquhan.jpg
197

Tris,

02/03/2008 12:57:12
#215
"The Unionist voices are getting louder and louder.even at night when i am trying to sleep"....


You're hearing voices now? Oh dear.

198

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 13:03:03
#211, Phil C.

Do you not see the insanity that taxes State pensioners, social security claimants and the unemployed and then makes them apply to receive the money back. This system is wasteful and inefficient and costs a great deal of public money.
199

Lennox11,

Coatbridge 02/03/2008 13:04:39
Can someone please tell me the difference between the proposed local income tax & the poll tax, Salmon's dream of shafting the working man is now where it belongs.
200

Lennox11,

Coatbridge 02/03/2008 13:05:38
correction to 218, should read, 'shafting the working family'
201

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 13:07:28
218. A local income tax is based on ability to pay and capacity to earn. The poll tx and council tax are not based on ability to pay or capacity to earn. Under a local income tax, people who earn nothing will pay nothing, people who earn little will pay little one, people who earn alot will pay the most. Seems much fairer than regressive taxes like the poll tax or council tax.

As for the working man, I suppose Labour's policies of cutting inheritance tax for millionaires while means testing benefits for the elderly are your preferred model?
202

Eve,

Scotland 02/03/2008 13:10:37
"THE SNP's flagship plan to scrap council tax has been wrecked by the UK Government after ministers categorically ruled out helping to fund the radical reform."

Typical!!!

"UK Work and Pensions Secretary James Purnell infuriated Nationalists by declaring there would be no financial assistance for the policy from south of the border, and accused First Minister Alex Salmond of wanting English taxpayers to "subsidise" his government."

Eh, is it just me, or is there no sense in the comment above.

Ah, the UK Work and Pensions Secretary James Purnell, no offence intended to this guy as a person, BUT I often find my self wondering how incompetent 95% of the staff are!!!

My experiences with job centre are that only between 5-10% of their employees seem capable of doing their job without treating their customers as if they are stupid. And different members of staff tell you different things and they are all right. Who is this possible? A Job centre employee is never wrong!!! (for some reason) Even when they don't listen to problems that you have and continue to produce material in a manner which is difficult to read.

203

Amparo de Glasgow,

02/03/2008 13:13:59
Come on sheeple ...!!
wee Eck is an incompetant numptie
... just like wee Bendy Wendy;
... the Tory eejit Goldie;
... and Nicol 'Stepin'-oan-a-hen' Stephen.

The real thing that should be scrapped is:
Uncle Tom's Cabin / Hollyrood
It has been the biggest waste of money Blair
... and his eejits ever thrust
... on the Scottish; Welsh and Northern Irish.

This so-called autonomy is just a vehicle for numpty-ism
... backward parochialism and former "Braveheart" film extras (who forgot to return the kilts; blue face-paint; and plastic swords to the Props Dept).

Keech-van-der-Reeech ...!!

Blair must still be laughing all the way to his and Cherie's retirement condo.
204

Tris,

dundee 02/03/2008 13:18:28

Under council tax, there are pensioners with small company pensions who pay as little as ten pounds a month in income tax, and in a high tax area like Dundee, they pay £1,200 a year in Council Tax. Under a LIT they would pay next to nothing. This from an income of around £8,000 a year when the official poverty line is somewhere around £14,000.

Labour, however, is happy to allow pensioners to go to prison for not being able to pay council tax, and happy for 3,000 penioners a year to die of the cold in Scotland. (At least if they are not happy, they are not doing anything to stop it.)

Please don't give me a tale of woe about the SNP shafting people! Labour could write books and give night classes about it.
205

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 13:19:40
#218, lennox11.

Please refer to my #208.
206

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 02/03/2008 13:20:48
While I cannot comment on something I do not fully understand the financial ins and outs of, I think we have to commend little power hungry westminster (small 'w' intended) on their gall!
It would seem that to change the tax system, and impliment changes, such as the poll tax on Scotland experimentally, for a year, before doing the same to that country south of the border, commonly known as the UK, (well other countries think the UK is england) , is workable. But to allow Scotland to have the tax laws changed,is as acceptable as a Scot claiming to be able to think!
The quicker we are able to become SCOTLAND again the better! To have polititians who are sleaze free, honest with their expenses, and their partners, should go a long way to help the funding to change the proposed community tax improvements! Also getting rid of 'I didn't know it was wrong' Wendy, would improve the Scottish credibility, after all in a court of law, not knowing something is wrong, is no excuse for doing it! Also it does not add to that statement, that it does not apply to Wendy Cheat!
207

Eve,

Scotland 02/03/2008 13:23:20
#222 Amparo de Glasgow:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Odd
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Dictator
208

Nikostratos,

02/03/2008 13:24:36
#216 Tris

It's me fall back position if the nationalist 'Hordes' ever overthrow the Unionist 'Yoke' I'll just claim i was a mentalist led astray by AM2 and suchlike........
209

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 02/03/2008 13:27:29
A local income tax is fairer than the council tax. However, we are being fed a couple of lies about it:

1. It is not a local tax.

2. It will be a lot more than 3p in the pound.
210

Tris,

02/03/2008 13:28:17
~218 Nikostratos.....

LOL.

Always good to have a fall back position....
211

kimba,

02/03/2008 13:28:43
193,meths. seems your platonic mood is over! well done westminster.
212

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 13:29:11
225. The bigger your house the more disposable income you have? Rubbish - pensioners might live in the family home with little income. Similarly you could have 6 earners in one house next door, paying the same total in council tax as pensioner couple in a similar house with only small pension income

As for a bureaucratic system - the system of valuations and collection of the council tax is extremely bureaucratic - collecting for council services via the existing PAYE income tax system will be a lot more efficient - eliminating as it does a second massive council tax bureaucracy.
213

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 13:29:57
228. Some of us already assumed that Niko and make allowances for you already
214

Nikostratos,

02/03/2008 13:30:14
#225 darky

What about if you are on a low income in rented accommodation and inherit a very large house from your aunty Agnes..........What then
215

kimba,

02/03/2008 13:31:22
Now even the powers that be realise that England is being screweb by the scots!
216

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 02/03/2008 13:31:57
#232 Ayrshire Scot

Out of interest, how does it work if you don't pay PAYE?
217

Tris,

02/03/2008 13:33:41
#225 Darkside. it's a sorry state of affairs when pnsioners have to move out of their family home into a council estate to be able to stay alive on their small pensions. It's not really the kind of country we should aspire to is it? Not a potentially rich country. I bet they don't have to do that in our nearest neighbours Ireland, Norway or Iceland

#226 Enster Buddy. You make a good point there. Poll Tax! Nuff said!
218

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 13:34:34
236. I'd assume in the same way as income tax currently works for the self employed - the LIT will be included in the assessed tax payment.
219

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 02/03/2008 13:36:38
#234 Ayrshire Scot

That will be fine, then - I can screw Hollyrood as well as the Inland Revenue.
220

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 13:37:24
236. Good oh. And so can Niko's rich aunty Agnes presumably
221

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 13:38:43
237. Second properties would be included, I think, in the current small business rating system, so that people with second homes would stil make an additional contribution to local council funding.

Why don't you go and read the policy papers and inform yourself of the detail?
222

Amparo de Glasgow,

02/03/2008 13:40:27
#227
naw Eve ...
waste of public money.

Shut it down Eve ...!!

It is just a delusion.

If you want REAL independence??
... campaign for that.

Demand the whole cake
... not the crumbs
... from your London Master's table.

Uncle Tom's Cabin / Hollyrood

... is a factory
... which produces provincial parochial eejits.


A real government has:
... an Army;
... a Navy;
... and an AirForce
... to back it up !!!
223

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 13:40:53
237. Dark Side, your point on additional tax is based on a misunderstanding. The total amount of local government funding to be raised is not changing - just the system by which the total is raised will change to make it fairer. There will be no increase in the total amount raised, so no need for employers to compensate people. True, higher earners will possibly pay more (depending on their current housing bands) - this is fair.
224

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 13:43:08
242. Your second homes are of course not businesses. They would be included in the business rating system to ensure that they made a contribution to local funding.
225

Eve,

Scotland 02/03/2008 13:46:24
#221 The Dark Side: I saw you on the telly the day!!!

I must say loved yer glasses!!!!
226

,

02/03/2008 13:47:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
227

kimba,

02/03/2008 13:48:24
Off to see my mum and thank her for being the best mum EVER! HOPE YOU LOT DO THE SAME.
228

Eve,

Scotland 02/03/2008 13:50:58
#230 Nikostratos: Aye you've got a point there!!! The Dark side hasn't thought about that one. Maybe they are under a diluted opinion that if you have well off relatives then you, your self must be well off. Which is NOt always the case.
229

,

02/03/2008 13:52:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
230

Tris,

02/03/2008 13:54:11
# 237

"Someone in a large house can easily sell up and buy a small flat if they really want to, unless they've been releasing funds through an equity release scheme, but again that's there choice!"


These are people you're talking about, living in neighbourhoods, perhaps close to family and friends, perhaps with gardens they've tended over many years, and a local church, mosque, or other place of worship or old folks club or whatever that they attend. Many of them don't have cars, don't drive and are frail.

They are not commodities that you can shuffle around into a council flat in a multi somewhere to suit.

People, with lives. Old maybe, but they still count....oh and they vote too! Even if they are poor. They vote!
231

britfree,

camelon 02/03/2008 13:56:24
i look at james purnell , and i wonder how low my country has to stoop to allow such a inconsequential ninny to have ANY say whatsoever about ANY subject that affects the future direction indeed destination of this old yet strangely new country .lets give ourselves hope lets vote to make our decisions ourselves rather than relying on imported " towering intellects " like james bl##dy purcell
232

Eve,

Scotland Bonnie Scotland 02/03/2008 14:02:47
#241 Amparo de Glasgow: I'm NOT a robot!!!

I would if I could afford too!!!

Aye well, I live in hope, that one day the Scottish parliament will be a real government with all or most of those things you've mentioned.

Crumbs are better than nothing and the SNP at the moment seem to be doing the best they can with the crumbs they have and try and show the people of Scotland the potential we have, to be a self affsiate independent country.

#247 kimba: Thats good!!!!
233

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 14:03:57
#237, Dark Side.

As you'll be registered as the owner of 2 houses you will pay LIT on both. Only fair isn't it.

On your other point: uneven taxation.

Current household income: £45 500

Current CT, Band D: £1 250 (average)

Proposed LIT: £1 200; 2px: £1035; 3px: £870.

These figures (LIT) assume 1 taxpayer; 2 taxpayers @ (£27 750) and 3taxpayers @ £15 167 per annum respectively.

Seems to me that differential NIT is not a problem nor is it any sort of attack on families.

Distort if you must, but understand, "the truth will set you free.". Come over to the light.
234

,

02/03/2008 14:06:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
235

Col Blimp III,

02/03/2008 14:12:49
Who the hell are you?
236

Col Blimp III,

02/03/2008 14:13:22
#253
237

Andrew Buchan,

Kincardineshire 02/03/2008 14:15:53
I think this scare story was trotted out before the election and we all know what effect it had then.

Why is SoS recycling this junk?
238

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 02/03/2008 14:16:59
#237 Dark Side

Every tax change brings winners and losers. Someone on £40,000 income will currently be paying from 0 (staying with parents) to £2500 or so (top tax band) Under LIT they will be paying some £1100 or so. The one who isn't paying anything will be angry- the one paying a lot will be happy. Unfortunately the noise will all come from the ones paying more, those gaining will often keep quiet.

There is no reason to change pay scales. People paying more in IT will often be substantially better off. It would be equally valid to say people South of the Border should get more pay because they have Council Tax to pay!

What I'm not sure of is whether the person staying in England but working in Scotland would have to pay CT and LIT. Though I'm sure there will be a mechanism for dealing with that as well.

Neb

239

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/03/2008 14:18:54
To AM2
To claim that the Council Tax is a property tax is misleading. Council Tax is payed by the occupant not the property owner. A true property tax would be a tax based on the market value of the property and would be paid by the owner not the tenant. As it is know it is a confused banding system. A true property tax would not give a discount for second homes. You defend a system that says if Scotland deviates from Westminster's dictates then she will be fiscally punished. It is becoming increasingly obvious that if that is the case and people in Scotland want Goverment that delivers solutions for Scotland then the only viable option giving Westminsters intransegance is Independance.
240

Amparo de Glasgow,

02/03/2008 14:19:04
#255
Eve carino ...
I am delighted to hear you or not a robot.
In 2008 ... us ladies / girlies
... can and do think for ourselves


However I firmly believe
... scrap Uncle Tom's Cabin / Hollyrood
... the money would be better spent
... improving oor weans schools' infrastructure;
... or mending all the pot-holes
... on our badly maintained roads
241

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 02/03/2008 14:29:45
Some on these posts may just be influenced by the statistics poured out by AM2 and his disciples. Of course we all know where statistics lead to! Damned lies! A local income tax will be a huge benefit to all since an income on earnings is the fairest system of taxation.. If a move to impede this shift is stymied by a law (or by the manipulations by politicians at Westminster) then get round the obstacles. AM2 knows,as do others, how competent New Labour has been at this little ploy. Blair, Wendy, Charlie Gordon, Mandelson et al are glowing examples. Not only is Gordon Brown and his band of traitors doing all they can to thwart the new government in Holyrood, they will use every dirty trick in the book to achieve it. The new Scottish Government is now a threat to Westminster and to New Labour MPs in particular.The gloves are off! Cutting off the money supply is an easy way out. The £400million legitimately now due should be added to the £40 million yearly rebate Lord Sutherland declares we are entitled to from the National Insurance fund from 1999! And to Dame Bramage .. if you hold Alex Salmond in such contempt where do you place criminals like Tony Blair, Alexander, Gordon, Watson et al on your Richter scale of decency (and that's before we touch the Tories and LibDems). You could say "wait and see" but in his whole political career not one finger has been laid on him. His reputation as one of the best professionals in his many fields has been unparalleled. Not, I suggest, a bad man to be running this new concept of governance in Scotland.
242

Amparo de Glasgow,

02/03/2008 14:34:42
#264
hmmmmmmm !!!
Mibbee !!!
243

Amparo de Glasgow,

02/03/2008 14:46:07
picture the scene ...
... @ SNP Headquarters

wee Eck: "Jeezzuzz Nikki ... Broon still doesnae like me."

Sturgeon-bot Stepford Wife Version 4.001:
"We'll dig a trench along the Border ...!!"

(Salmond picks up spanner and wallops Nicola in the coupon
... as instructed by Boab the Repairman)

"... aw sorry boss ... ehh ye wuz sayin sumptin'??"

wee Eck: "Aye Nikki ... whit we gonnae dae hen??"

(Salmond dials Swinney)
"... jeeezzuzz Nikki ... his phone is switched aff again hen !!"
244

The Strategist,

02/03/2008 14:57:01
AM2 said "A property tax, while not a perfect measure of disposable income (the "ability to pay") is actually a better approximation."

No it's not. Property values have grown much faster than inflation or salaries. So it's quite possible that someone who bought a house for £40k fifteen years ago is now sitting on an asset valued at perhaps £250k.

Given that fifteen years ago it was likely that the max mortgage available was 1.5x salary then it's safe to assume that the buyer was probably earning around £30k... It would also be very safe to assume they're not earning £375k today and that in fact their salary has probably not done much more than doubled to about £60k.




245

,

02/03/2008 14:57:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
246

,

02/03/2008 15:02:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
247

,

02/03/2008 15:08:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
248

Amparo de Glasgow,

02/03/2008 15:10:39
continued ...

wee Eck: "... Christ Nikki hen
... that bam-pot Swinney's phone
... it's still switched aff hen!!"


meanwhile in London ...

Nick Clegg: "Look come on John ...
... it's dead easy --->>>

... think of it as a Paul Simon song:
"Just slip-out the back Jack
... make a new plan Stan"


... and we will get ye a nice LibDem safe seat."

(Swine-ney looks pensive now)

Swine-ney: "Uhhhhhh
... run that past me again
... I missed the middle-bit Nick."
249

,

02/03/2008 15:10:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
250

,

02/03/2008 15:13:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
251

Tobytoo,

Southington, U.S.A. 02/03/2008 15:13:42
#15
I think that the drop in online users is because of the nasty personal attacks on people who disagree with others and also it has turned more or less into a chat room instead of having decent discussions of the actual issues.
252

,

02/03/2008 15:15:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
253

,

02/03/2008 15:18:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
254

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 15:27:27
278
Substantiate what you say...;-)
255

,

02/03/2008 15:32:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
256

MoragfraeEdinburgh,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 15:32:55
276# You are dead right. There is a fascistic element to the Nats posts on web sites which drives a way anyone not of their own mentality. That makes for these debates looking very one sided to those in other parts of the world not aware what is going on in Scotland. It is embarrassing for the rest of us but even if the Nats don't support free speech the rest of us do speech so there is not a lot we can do about it.
257

Alan Bain,

Toronto Cananda 02/03/2008 15:38:46
#276 You are dead wrong, from what i have read it is the Unionists and their utter discontent for other peoples opinion which is the down fall of this paper.
258

Calum S1,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 15:41:22
#282 Alan Bain

You are not the only one to hold that though, i share them to and agree with you, well said sir.
259

Calum S1,

02/03/2008 15:42:29
277 Bird

That post did make me giggle, sums up Labour...
260

Calum S1,

02/03/2008 15:46:45
There is a fascistic element to the unionists posts on web sites which drives a way anyone not of their own mentality. That makes for these debates looking very one sided to those in other parts of the world not aware what is going on in Scotland. It is embarrassing for the rest of us but even if the Unionists don't support free speech the rest of us do speech so there is not a lot we can do about it.
261

MoragfraeEdinburgh,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 15:54:12
#285 I can cite about 200 posts above to confirm mine - and you?
262

Tobytoo,

Southington, U.S.A. 02/03/2008 15:54:33
#282
Outside of the fact that I did not use the two words
Unionist and Nats. isn't that exactly what I said?
Some people on both sides use very nasty personal attacks on each other when they don't agree instead of agreeing to disagree.
263

Calum S1,

02/03/2008 15:56:53
#286

220 for me.
264

Calum S1,

02/03/2008 15:59:18
#287 But if you look at the majority of posts which contain guff and personal attacks you will find that they are Unionists, most people on this site would back that up.

Now someone from Neaw Zealand will back me up soon, watch!!
265

Tobey Lech,

New Zealand 02/03/2008 16:03:41
#289 Calum s1

I agree with your post 100%, most of the time i have posted i have seen the obscenities come from the unionists camp
266

Tobey Lech,

New Zealand 02/03/2008 16:05:30
#282 Alan Bain Toronto.

I may be thousands of miles away from you but i agree with your post.
267

Phil C,

02/03/2008 16:06:12
#213 frank mcbride

The theory of the Poll Tax was a good one- that everyone would feel involved by having to pay something (even if they got it back). Councils would be accountable to everyone. I agree that in practice the Poll Tax was insane in certain ways. In truth it was a go at Labour areas in particular and the voters roll was used to find the taxpayers. Hence the name Poll Tax instead of the more acceptable Community Charge. It's early introduction in Scotland by our beloved Mrs T meant this was an easy target for the anarchists who destroyed it. I still maintain it was a fairer tax than the Council Tax or Rates- even if insane and overtly political!

Far better a local income tax. Westminster mind your own business and you WILL pay Scotland it's share of local government finance, however you dress it up.
268

AntiPCman,

02/03/2008 16:06:30
Re 68 - you are correct.

If Council Tax, which is a property tax, is finished as Mr. Salmond has promised and delivered on in the first Local Authority budget last month, then any other method of local taxation is not Council Tax.

Raising a tax on the ability to pay means that if you were in receipt of benefit for Council Tax (CT)previously, you will not be eligible for it now as you will not have sufficient income to pay any Local Income Tax (LIT), therefore there is no need for any benefit.

The issue of the £400m of benefit was always going to be an issue for any LIT system as there was no need for Westminster to pay it once CT disappeared. This was recognised by both Liberal and SNP but the SNPs chose to believe that Westminster would still pay it which, as I have explained, is an illogical argument. It has got nothing to do with politics or unionism.

There is a great deal of merit to choosing a LIT system for a variety of societal groups but it must be managed and paid for from within the monies from the Barnett formula for the Scottish settlement. This formula already pays a great deal more per head of population to Scotland than to England or Wales and the Lothian Question has not been addressed. Politics aside, I think we should stop asking for more money and keep our heads down for a bit. We do get a pretty generous settlement and it has been consistently underspent by the Lib/Lab government each year since 1999.

I would suggest that the SNP do get together with other parties and see where savings or even robust decisions can be made in order to carry out their or other party manifesto committments for the greater good of Scotland. If there is a going to be wish to move towards a political and fiscal autonomy from Westminster then a greater understanding of financial management should be demonstrated.

Personally, I think we have the best of all worlds at the moment as we are in the Union but that might change. To convince me and the major
269

Tobey Lech,

New Zealand 02/03/2008 16:07:08
It is realy fantastic that we have posters from all around the world posting today, why dont we all get together for one big Knees up?
270

AntiPCman,

02/03/2008 16:08:03
Continued -

Personally, I think we have the best of all worlds at the moment as we are in the Union but that might change. To convince me and the majority of Scotland, any and all parties need to show a higher level of understanding of political governance than is being demonstrated at the moment.
271

kimba,

02/03/2008 16:08:13
It's not about Labour,it's about salmond thinking we in England are your "free bank",news flash, we ain't!
272

kimba,

02/03/2008 16:09:16
294. Great idea!
273

A voice from Redcar,

N.E England 02/03/2008 16:13:39
We in the North East do envy what you Scots get that we don,t but i would not say we subsidise Scotland.

From what my fellow English, they say that it is us that is being subsidised from Scotland's natural resources.

I hope to visit Scotland son.
274

A voice from Redcar,

N.E England 02/03/2008 16:15:55
#294

Sounds good to me but it will have to be your place, i would not want you to see the part of England i stay in.
275

kimba,

02/03/2008 16:18:29
Nothing wrong with redcar,so stop degrading it!
276

kimba,

02/03/2008 16:21:27
298. you are a liar, and a disgrace to England,we pay Scotland 28 billion per annum,go to scotland AND STAY THERE.
277

It's me!,

02/03/2008 16:23:51
#293 AntiPCman. Your knowledge of the Barnett formula is limited. It does not apply just to Scotland, it operates in the whole country. Northern Ireland receives the greatest while London comes in about fourth or fifth. (And that comes on top of the astronomical cost of the Jubilee line and how much for a refurbished railway station?????). The "home counties" do not need as much from the formula because of the great wealth there. This helps to explain the differences between money given to the home counties (not a lot) and Newcastle (requires and gets a lot). And as for the West Lothian question, English MP's had been voting on Scottish only matters for centuries. How come it's only a problem now that the shoe is on the other foot?
278

,

02/03/2008 16:25:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
279

kimba,

02/03/2008 16:26:37
302. BECAUSE YOU HAVE DEVOLUTION,WORK IT OUT!
280

It's me!,

02/03/2008 16:31:41
Kimba. I suggest you look at this site before claiming Scotland is being bankrolled by England

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4567138.stm

its a BBC site so reasonably trustworthy.
281

kimba,

02/03/2008 16:32:18
SLIGHTY OFF TOPIC; GOOD LUCK TO ANDY ABRAHAMS IN THE EUROVISION ON 24TH MAY.
282

,

02/03/2008 16:36:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
283

kimba,

02/03/2008 16:36:35
308. Would not trust the BBC if my life depended on it, we do, and you and hundreds like you will never acknowledge it!
284

,

02/03/2008 16:43:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
285

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 16:44:25
'Yes the money is earmarked for Scotland, but - and purely based on what the article says - it is specifically as a council tax rebate. No council tax, no rebate. I must admit actually I am a bit conflicted about us having a rebate at all, if England doesn't get one, why should we? I'm not a unionist (not particularly nationalist either, although I do slightly incline that way) and it seems to me that we should be trying to finance our government ourselves, without the benefit of support from Westminster.'

Indeed. If Scotland was fiscally independent there wouldn't be this trouble. i don't know why Scotland gets a rebate either, but it's probably something to do with the overall complexity of public finances.

The point is that as long as Westminster reserves the right to redistribute the tax take, then it has a duty to do it properly, not use it as a leverage for party political advantage.

If Scotland wants to raise the tax in a different way then we should have the right to do so. That seems to me to be a fundamental principle of devolution.
286

kimba,

02/03/2008 16:53:49
METHS,But not every part of the UK get a council tax freeze!
287

kimba,

02/03/2008 16:56:40
313, why am I not surprised at your lack of support,oh,I KNOW YOU ARE SCOTTISH.
288

kimba,

02/03/2008 17:02:20
YOU ALL SEEM TO BE MISSING THE POINT, GORDY HAS FINALLY WOKEN UP TO THE FACT THAT ALL OF THE UK SHOULD BE TREATED THE SAME,AND ENGLAND AND HER 50 MILLION PEOPLE ARE NOT YOUR "FREE BANK".
289

kimba,

02/03/2008 17:04:00
320,JEEZ,IF THAT IS ALL SCOTLAND HAS TO OFFER YOU ARE TRULY DOOMED!
290

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 17:06:34
#320

'I have known Alex Salmond for 25yrs, have never actually liked him, have seldom voted for him.'

lol-Are you sure YOU'RE not Jim Sillars!
291

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:08:04
320/325 I quite liked Jim Sillars. Maybe COl B is Ian Lawson?
292

,

02/03/2008 17:20:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
293

,

02/03/2008 17:21:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
294

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:21:54
330 Johnnie Beattie?
295

,

02/03/2008 17:26:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
296

,

02/03/2008 17:26:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
297

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:27:21
336 Square sausage?

298

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:28:15
337. I think perhaps Drane as drag artist may have played Mrs Mac on Take the High Road?
299

,

02/03/2008 17:28:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
300

,

02/03/2008 17:29:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
301

,

02/03/2008 17:33:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
302

,

02/03/2008 17:37:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
303

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:37:43
353. Jeez, talk about wide angle lenses
304

,

02/03/2008 17:37:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
305

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 17:38:21
The Labour party is behaving as if this money belongs to them. Scotland pays it's taxes and it's entitled to have that money spent on Scotland. A tax rebate is when you get your own money back after having paid too much.
regardless of how we pay taxes whether it's council tax or local income tax, this is still OUR money.
for the labour party to withhold is nothing less than theft.

306

,

02/03/2008 17:38:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
307

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:41:27
357. Are you saying you look like Salmond then? Pity, I had hopes you were totty, no you reveal yourself somehwat aesthetically challenged. The rise and rise of the SNP....
308

,

02/03/2008 17:42:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
309

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:42:09
360 I thought your "three, brings me back to my tree" was your better work
310

,

02/03/2008 17:42:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
311

,

02/03/2008 17:46:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
312

,

02/03/2008 17:46:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
313

boudica,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 17:49:08
AS was told on numerous occasion by representives from Westminster when he came out with all this bumf about LIT during his campaign that he would not and could not claim any CT rebate from Westminster and anyhoo if he got rid of the CT along with that goes all the Rules and Regulations and Laws that cover that system and they will have to write a new rules and regulations book to accomodate the New Tax ...Salmond knew that westminster wouldnt go for this and that was his purpose ..to stir it up and knowing full well it wouldnt be accepted all he has to say " is all the fault of those at Westmister that stopped it" but what he and his bunch of bushwhackers have failed to see is that the Electorate see him exactly for what he is a Jumped up wee Nyaff who far from putting the interests of People of Scotland first he is too busy stirring the Sh-t to care about them Salmond is all mouth and no trousers
314

,

02/03/2008 17:53:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
315

,

02/03/2008 17:54:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
316

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:54:29
372. Whereas Jackie Baillie is enough trousers to make temporary accomodation for a family of Polish immigrants
317

John1,

Stirling 02/03/2008 17:55:14
168 Frank McBride
"The Poll Tax was a flat rate tax, charge on everyone, regardless of ability to pay"
No it wasn't. There were rebates for various reasons. Students, for example, paid 20% of the full rate. People on benefits had their benefits increased to cover the extra cost of the Community Charge (to give it its proper name).
My original post at 173 has been independently confirmed by several people above. I notice we have had the usual statements about the Community Charge being tried out on Scotland before being introduced in England. The fact is that it was introduced here first because a massive increase in rates was produced by a revaluation of rateable values in Scotland but not in England. This produced an angry response from people who pay taxes in Scotland and the Community Charge was introduced. We then had riots here by people who had been getting away with not paying for the services they had been using for years. These faded away and the Community Charge was being accepted by the time they introduced it in England. Cue copycat riots there and a loss of nerve by John Major and Heseltine (Did they not notice ANYTHING happening north of Watford?). They panicked and we got the rates back under a new name. Hence the abondonment of the Tories by Scottish voters.
Getting back to the LIT proposals: these will have their own anomalies. Bring back rthe Community Charge! Any perceived deficiencies in it can be addressed in the light of experience.
318

karinxx,

02/03/2008 17:56:17
yes brilliant news something else the electorate can be pissed off at westminster for.
319

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:56:22
366 Do you often consider the need for drag artists, Drane, and are they on your mind alot?
320

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 17:56:48
366 Ironic you mention drag artists and Boudica popped up
321

,

02/03/2008 17:57:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
322

karinxx,

02/03/2008 17:58:17
along with the blocking more gun control in scotland are westminster trying to lose as many votes in scotland as they can
323

,

02/03/2008 17:59:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
324

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:00:58
391. You seem frustrated and unhappy. Is your drag career floundering? Lot of competition with old Boudica there of course
325

,

02/03/2008 18:01:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
326

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:05:15
393 - Dane's posts resemblethe written equivalent of Tourette's
327

kimba,

02/03/2008 18:05:27
IQ,is not the issue here,it's COMMON SENSE,WHICH SEEMS TO BE LACKING IN A BIG WAY!!
328

,

02/03/2008 18:07:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
329

,

02/03/2008 18:09:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
330

,

02/03/2008 18:11:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
331

,

02/03/2008 18:12:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
332

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:13:13
398. He had an electric blanket I heard. Explains the nature of some of his more recent posts
333

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:14:20
402. What have horses to do with drag? Even your abuse is strangely incoherent? Are you drunk?
334

,

02/03/2008 18:15:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
335

kimba,

02/03/2008 18:17:58
METHS. THEN PLEASE USE YOURS.
336

,

02/03/2008 18:20:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
337

,

02/03/2008 18:25:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
338

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:27:21
414. 2/10. Rather dull, unpolished, ...
339

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:31:42
418. Even his insults are tedious and unfunny. Surely an actor from RSAMD should be able to do better? Perhaps he will take a break and come back with better material?
340

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:32:37
419. Is the "W" for who, where or what? Who is Maltese Codger, where is up his own fundament and what has been widely documented
341

,

02/03/2008 18:34:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
342

,

02/03/2008 18:34:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
343

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:36:05
422. Mmmm, what accent do you suggest we interpret his insipid posts to ? I tried with various Allo Allo type accents but his posts are still dull.
344

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:37:13
423 List D i am thinking,,,
345

,

02/03/2008 18:38:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
346

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:40:39
427 Some of Dane's were so tediously dull that not even the computer could be bothered counting them
347

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:42:30
Once again the thread has become the Methalions and Ayrshire chat room. Two bullying bores who gang up on anyone who dares disagree with them.
Look out for the Maltese/Tranny/Wini references. Happens every night. Their sad lives are consumed by it.
These 2 losers put the 'weird' into 'weirdo'.
348

,

02/03/2008 18:43:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
349

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:43:30
431 I tried a James Mason. Didn't work at all. I think perhaps Rab C Nesbit may enhance his content?
350

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:44:57
434. Awright there fakey? LOL. Was just saying that you would pop up, and up you pop.
351

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:45:19
438. The gang of two?
352

,

02/03/2008 18:45:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
353

,

02/03/2008 18:47:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
354

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:48:51
443. Lets bash that tranny down to 11, yeah babey...hehehe (oh that right, I have twinkle-feet and dance to 11, Meths cranks to 11...hey, how come the Bird of Prey don't do any elevense's??)
355

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:49:18
Hey Ayrshire you were going to 'out' me.

I have not slept for weeks with all the worry.

Yours

Martin Lewis
356

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:50:12
445. I must have lost interest in you, old bean...sorry
357

,

02/03/2008 18:52:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
358

,

02/03/2008 18:55:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
359

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 18:56:38
There we go. Sadly. . . as predicted. 2 weirdos talking about Trannys all night.
360

,

02/03/2008 18:56:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
361

,

02/03/2008 18:58:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
362

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 19:07:57
Bird of prey who are you trying to kid? Bird of prey aka methalions aka disputer and no doubt many more.
The man who pretends he is someone else and then replies to his own posts saying 'great post'.
363

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 19:11:17
Check out post 452. Thats the sado methalions commenting on his own post.
364

The Strategist,

02/03/2008 19:11:25
#329 AM2

No exaggeration. It's my house.
365

Sambo,

The deep south 02/03/2008 19:17:03
As a property owner and council tax payer to the tune of 1000 pounds a year I welcomed the freeze.
I've heard it said that "the wee pretendy parliament" was a straw one and the real power brokers reside in London. Scotland, get a grip.
366

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 02/03/2008 19:18:35
A few harsh realities being spelt out here but it surely begs the question of the SNP in not having their policies costed out properly yet again. It also highlights the fact that on major issues then a UK wide decision has to be taken and the UK party able to lead this debate is the LibDems who favour abolition of the council tax and replace it with one that reflects the ability to pay that is collected through income tax locally adjusted to ensure transparent accountability. Thats fair and just and deliverable, but only if you vote LibDem!
367

,

02/03/2008 19:25:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
368

Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 02/03/2008 19:37:46
#461
I'll name that person in one - Vanessa Feltz.
369

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 19:42:18
462 LOL.
370

Alan B,

02/03/2008 19:44:15
#460 Liberal for life

U do not seem to not be aware that Nicol Stevens the scottish leader of the lib dem has stated recently that he want to work with the snp to introduce a local income tax to scotland. The lib dems in scotland are hence pursuing a scottish policy not a uk wide one.

AM2 ur logic is all over the place. U seem to think that if Labour at Westminster throws it toys out its pram and will not do the honerable thing and pay up then the matter should be dropped. Unfortunately for u the snp are unlikely to drop it and continue to show Brown up for what he is humilating him into the bargain.

Fiscal autonomy is the only what to sort this mess out and stop the childish and bullying behaviour from labour at westminster.
371

Alan B,

02/03/2008 19:49:42
The Barnett formula is essentially about giving scotland a percentage of spending, based on the expenditure in england.

What we have here is labour saying if the sp brings in a policy that labour in westminster does not like the money that would be forecoming to scotland will stop. How does labour actually think that is somehow ok? It makes not sense.

The fact that we are in this mess again shows how fudged the lines of responsibilities with devolution. This needs to be sorted out quickly.



372

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 19:50:14
465, Meths, are you the Bird of Prey? Damned weird, as I have been chatting with him and you at the same time. How you do it?
373

,

02/03/2008 19:53:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
374

Phillip,

02/03/2008 19:59:28
I've got to say, if you only have to worry about EITHER a property tax OR an income tax, but not both then you are extremely lucky.

I'm in Virginia (USA) & I pay a National Income Tax, a State Income Tax (with an extra percentage added on as a local County income tax to my State filings) as well as a property tax on the land I own & a special Personal Property Tax on certain kinds of movable property such as my Car.

375

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 02/03/2008 19:59:36
#466 and 467- be prepared to "eat your words" and then I'll happily accept your apologies - its a big man who can accept their mistakes remember!

www.libdems.org.uk/media/documents/policies/18LocalIncomeTax.pdf
376

,

02/03/2008 20:01:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
377

,

02/03/2008 20:03:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
378

Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 02/03/2008 20:03:34
#465 Methalions
If you were Methaalions (just a touch of Norwegian there), you could also have been The Mona Lisa.
Now, beware the Ides of March - or the day after, to be more precise. That is when we hit Spain - only figuratively, of course.
Leave a message on andalucia.com should you fancy a quick half, with venue/date/time.
379

,

02/03/2008 20:06:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
380

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 20:07:38
478. AM2 has a better figure...
381

,

02/03/2008 20:08:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
382

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 20:10:55
480 Seriously enough to be elected First Minister?

You are a very odd, angry and bitter chap. What happened?
383

Gtj,

Dundee 02/03/2008 20:11:07
"Salmond tax plan in tatters" -

The only thing in tatters is this website and the Liebour Party.
384

,

02/03/2008 20:11:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
385

Phil C,

02/03/2008 20:12:24
#471 Phillip

We've got a hell of a lot more than that to put up with. We have a government in a foreign land, a 'socialist' government, that sneaks in taxes quicker than you can pull up your kegs in a rat infested toilet.

We are trying to develop a fair society but we have to fight against a huge rump of inbred banjos who live here to get our message accross!
386

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 20:16:40
473. Dane, Cider, Pete

just out of interest, how do you know that the Scotsman bans people then allows posts under new name from same IP address?

I agree with you about censorship, but swearing and being as tediously boring and lacking in coherence as yourself should not be tolerated
387

,

02/03/2008 20:21:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
388

,

02/03/2008 20:25:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
389

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 20:27:28
487. Pete, Cider etc

I don't swear, post profanity or crude ludeness, nor am I racist or bigotted.

You are still dull.
390

The Strategist,

02/03/2008 20:28:57
#476 AM2

No - it's not atypical at all in Aberdeenshire.
391

Queen D,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 20:29:20
Meths , I was at the RSMDA from '63 to 65.Got married in between ,had 2 kids and returned in 68/69.
The good old building ,when the canteen was beside the theatre. Was'nt quite the same when they poshed the place up!
Not too fond of the new one , no character.
So you taught drama too eh?
392

,

02/03/2008 20:31:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
393

,

02/03/2008 20:35:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
394

Tris,

Dundee. 02/03/2008 20:39:45

Ha Ha. Can't get over Foulke's second faux pas of the day. Most Scots think that the Channel Islands are part of the UK.

Now listen up George, your noble highness....

1. That's rubbish. Not one Scot I asked thought that. (not a scientific selection)

2. If the ones you know do think that, then it doesn't say too much for the education system up to now in Scotland.

3. Even if 95% of Scots thought that, we'd kinda like to think that as aspiring Unionist First Minister (haha) would have know what comprises this beloved Union of hers.

I think, George, in all honesty, it would be better if you went back in your box and said as little as possible from now on. Every time you say anything you drop a brick. Alex loves you.... he REALLY does. You're one of his secret weapons.... you and McNumpty. You keep on insulting us and patronising us, like we were some kind of ignorant low life.

Silly George. Silly. We vote, your Lordship, not like in the other place.
395

Eve,

Scotland Bonnie Scotland 02/03/2008 20:41:18
#263 Amparo de Glasgow: I don't know who Uncle Tom is?

Either explain it, or stop refering too it, please!!!
396

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 20:41:37
494. "n'est pas"? "oui".... why do you lapse into the odd fragment of French you tediuous little creature?

As for hard living in Ayrshire (with an intellect), what do you mean? Is this your Labour values in action - Ayrshire is a working class area of former coal mining communities so is horrid? How very socialist of you. And how very new Labour. Tell us again how the SNP is against working people while slagging off Ayrshire, why don't you. Allez. trous de cou
397

Miss H,

02/03/2008 20:45:29
Another act of stupidity by Westminster.

There is no logic whatsoever to their position. Under the SNP's proposals, Scotland would not receive one penny more in council tax benefit than we do now.

James Purnell's argument that the SNP want English taxpayers to subsidise a local income tax is nonsense. What the SNP wants is the continuation of the income-based benefit which is currently in place and which has been in place through various different local tax systems.

On a rather cynical level however I am not unhappy they have taken this position. Everything they do these days seems to highlight the need for independence. The SNP is hardly having to do anything, our opponents seem to be doing our work for us.
398

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 02/03/2008 20:46:46
Veh interesting. So Dane Bramage, you're a Scottish ACTOR born in 1962. Please tell us how many 'Taggart's'* you have been in?

* By Taggart's I mean the continuing police drama, not rent boys.
399

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 20:47:15
Evening all, even you Dane...actor...:-)
400

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 20:50:12
Hey, five hunner and no fakies;-)
401

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 02/03/2008 20:51:02
Evening Conan (congrats on the 500), BoP, AS, Meths et al.


402

,

02/03/2008 20:54:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
403

,

02/03/2008 20:57:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
404

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/03/2008 20:58:22
Dear Mr Purnell

Thank you for your comments.

Please could you and your fellow cronies continue with this adversarial language. Every time you do this, you p**s more people off and Independence for Scotland draws closer.

PS. What will you spend that extra £400 million on? MPs expenses?
405

Eve,

Scotland 02/03/2008 20:58:23
#303: What are you on?
406

Tris,

Dundee 02/03/2008 21:02:26
Miss H #498
"On a rather cynical level however I am not unhappy they have taken this position. Everything they do these days seems to highlight the need for independence. The SNP is hardly having to do anything, our opponents seem to be doing our work for us."

Couldn't agree more. Every time they insult us, patronise us, treat us with contempt and put a spoke in the wheel of a genuinly good policy, whether they have the right to or not, they dig themsleves a little deeper and bring independence a step closer.

I'd never heard of this watsisname from Work and Pensions, but I wonder if he cleared it with Broon first. Just wondering how many of Broon's consituents would have been very very much better off under this proposal.

Would be sad for him to lose his seat after waiting so long for Tony to let him be a wee pretendy prime minister, just as the wheels were starting to come off. Sucker.


407

,

02/03/2008 21:02:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
408

,

02/03/2008 21:04:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
409

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 21:05:42
Evening Meths.How are you?
410

Tris,

02/03/2008 21:07:19
Dane 506 "Who gives a rats botty what you think? Your rambling post is virtually incomprehensible, except in it's bile. Bite it!!!"

Tell me what part of it you did not uunderstand and I'll explain it.
411

Eve,

Scotland 02/03/2008 21:08:01
#312 kimba: I guess yer a wiki fan!!!!
(Where you can alter the facts and make up new wans!!!)

P.S. You only need to mention the words Turkey & Ireland and we'll, all know that Euro Vision has finally become Euro Trash (Like many have been suspicious of in the past)!!!
412

,

02/03/2008 21:10:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
413

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 21:11:55
521. More new Labour values in action? Homophobia now (and from an aging falied actor if you please), and a hatred for working class areas previously?

Hoos Poos (you know what it means, wink)

414

,

02/03/2008 21:12:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
415

TheFife,

Beverly Hills, CA, USA 02/03/2008 21:15:23
FAIRER!?

Any tax scheme would be fairer than the income tax. You have to live in America for just one year to understand how unfair a system it is and how taxing in every sense of the word it is on the people.

Way back when the tax was first imposed, there was a movement in the legislature to limit it to 1%, as I recall. The proponents poo-pooed that and stopped the motion saying "don't be silly, it can never get that high". The income tax is now imposed by the national, state and local governments and total more than 30% of your income.

Over time income has been defined to mean all sources of money that come to you, including interest from the bank, inheritance, gifts, every possible penny. Every penny in your life must be accounted for every year and reported to the government. And there are penalties if they find you have made a mistake! Talk about intrusive government!

The process of filling in the forms every year is a total nightmare. People end up paying professional peope to fill in the forms for them so the cost of yanking this 30% out of your pockets is actually more than that.

Please don't rush to an income tax. It's not what you think it will be.

Use your minds on this and not politics. This issue with politics is stupid. Just think the whole thing through.



416

,

02/03/2008 21:15:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
417

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 21:17:49
522
He gave an address just down from the Playhouse, "safely" out of the gay pubs.
418

Conan the Librarian™,

02/03/2008 21:22:22
529
piano bar meths?
419

,

02/03/2008 21:23:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
420

,

02/03/2008 21:24:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
421

Kipling,

@DoomRay 02/03/2008 21:25:41
I don't understand. No comment at all on poster #173/175:

"...I must admit that i become a little confused when I hear both unionists and nationalists argue about Scotland’s place in the union. I can only presume that these posters are referring to the European Union, as the EU is the only game in town.
If one looks at the new EU map one will see that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales are independent nations which will become fully independent, functioning member states. What was formally known as England is divided into 9 regions. These regions within a generation will become fully elected independent assemblies reporting directly to Brussels and eventually Westminster will be dissolved. This has already been decided and signed under by a succession of UK governments...."

Scotland will soon be trapped in a relationship even worse than the relationship with England. Independent to do everything it wants except, em, be independent of Brussels. Does this explain why Alex seems to say nothing against the EU... swapping Westminster for Brussels and perhaps some position after he eventually retires from the SNP ? As to income determining local revenue, how long do you think the ex-nazi soviety apparatchiks in Brussels are going to allow Scotlanda to determine such minutaie if they don't allow a market tradesman to advertise what's on sale in lbs ? These years are similar to the Prague spring before the tanks started rolling in, believe you me.
422

The nurse of the fake Methalions in all his guises,

02/03/2008 21:27:57
I'm sorry about all this folks. Care in the community has its good points, but unfortunately it doesn't work for everyone. The poster who fakes other posters has a deep psychological problem. He is on medication, but in this enlightened world we can't force the pills down his scrawny neck. Please bear with us. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.
423

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 21:28:58
531. Did you boyfriend leave you because you have a tiny codger?>
424

,

02/03/2008 21:31:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
425

Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 02/03/2008 21:32:50
I am not familiar with the ramifications of LIT behind the scenes, so to speak. Would it, for example, involve engaging another 'x' thousand administrators in a new department, or would the existing revenue structure handle it by adding just a few more pages to the already weighty tax form?

On taxation generally, and specifically for Scotland, as that is what is behind this article, I would much prefer to support a policy that made serious efforts to simplify the tax system, rather than introduce another tier, and yet another complication.
426

Eve,

Scotland bonnie Scotland 02/03/2008 21:33:22
#531 The Lonely poster: May be it's because the article has nothing to do with what anyones sexuality is!!!

It's about Tax or to be more specific Council tax and how Westminster are trying to pull strings to hinder the good work that the Scottish Parliament could easily carry out if it was given the chance.
427

,

02/03/2008 21:34:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
428

,

02/03/2008 21:35:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
429

,

02/03/2008 21:38:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
430

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 21:38:46
539 What, your ex-boyfriend left you because both he and I find you tediously dull?
431

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 21:40:45
541. Gordon Brown and George Foulkes are family men
432

Eve,

Scotland bonnie Scotland 02/03/2008 21:41:53
Night all

P.S. Dose anyone know this song cause I only know this bit(think it's the cores), would be gratefully appreciated if someone could name it and tell me the rest of the words Thank Eve.

Scotland fight on for gloyer. Scotland we'll sing yer story. Scotland Today tomorrow we're bring you to history.

See the .....................................
433

Nikostratos,

02/03/2008 21:43:29
#510



"Couldn't agree more. Every time they insult us, patronise us, treat us with contempt and put a spoke in the wheel of a genuinly good policy, whether they have the right to or not, they dig themsleves a little deeper and bring independence a step closer."

tris you kn#b........still what does lickle kid such as you know........just dust beneath our unionist feet...........Oh what shall i do with my rather large spoke..I know hear comes tris on her policy bike......[[[[[[[[Kerang]]]]]]]]]... Now where did I put that shovel.........Dig...scoop..dig ..scoop..dig...scoop.Umm nice big round hole..keep digging....

536 Dane Bramage SNP Insider

reading your posts is like watching someone feasting with panthers.........Grrrrrrrrrr..Grrrrrrrrrr



toodle pip must go take Taz for walk and a tiddle
434

Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 02/03/2008 21:45:36
#544 Eve - 'P.S. Dose anyone know this song cause I only know this bit(think it's the cores).
It's probably to be found on iTunes - a slice of Apple. :-)
435

,

02/03/2008 21:49:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
436

The nurse of the fake Methalions in all his guises,

02/03/2008 21:51:27
Niko

You've got colour!

Dane.....good night.
437

The nurse of the fake Methalions in all his guises,

02/03/2008 21:51:55
Fakie

Seek help!
438

The nurse of the fake Methalions in all his guises,

02/03/2008 21:52:51
Nurse says good night. "Night nurse" is the usual response.

Fakie Ayrshire.....get a moniker eh?
439

,

02/03/2008 21:54:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
440

,

02/03/2008 21:58:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
441

,

02/03/2008 21:59:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
442

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 22:07:36
554 Clary.........His wife is very attractive??

WTF!

Are you registered blind?

She makes Bella Emberg look like Naomi Campbell.

Mind you she is still to good for that fat slob.
443

,

02/03/2008 22:07:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
444

,

02/03/2008 22:08:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
445

Level Headed,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 22:08:43
#187, Level Headed.

The distortion was equating LIT, a percentage based tax based on the ability to pay, with the Poll Tax, which was a flat-rate tax imposed on everyone regardless of their abilty to pay.

LIT is based on current tax contribution, with those who are currently below the tax threshhold exempt e.g. State pensioners, students earning below c£5 500.

Therefore, Student earning £5 000, LIT = £0: State pensioner - £5 250, LIT = £0: Worker earning £15 500, LIT = £300: Worker earning £45 500, LIT = £1 200.

If you genuinely wish a debate, please inform yourself on the salient points.



- I do genuinely want a debate and must profusely apologise for not being so on the ball as yourself Frank - Could you post a link to the information you gave, because its the first time I've ever heard that there is going to be a cut off in the level at which LIT will kick in..
446

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 22:12:23
#559 thanks.

These heels are killing my feet.
447

 Ayrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 22:14:10
561. I pictured you in low heeled court shoes.
448

,

02/03/2008 22:15:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
449

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 22:15:49
What a sh*thole Ayrshire is.

I need to move away from here.

The people are the dregs and teh towns are worse than Lockerbie.

The airport slogan sums this place up. No class.

Never visit here. Go to Palestine before you come here.
450

,

02/03/2008 22:16:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
451

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 22:17:22
Hey number 563, did they really phone the Scotsman to complain?

What a couple of idiots.
452

,

02/03/2008 22:17:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: