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Published Date: 12 August 2007
By EDDIE BARNES
POLITICAL EDITOR
ALEX Salmond today offers the prospect of an alliance with Unionists who want more powers for Holyrood.
In an article in this newspaper, he says that a separate Scotland remains his goal - but admits others will draw the line short of full independence.

The First Minister concedes that he will have to work with people who want to go "at least some way down the road" and says he will "respectfully listen" to their views.

A White Paper to be published by the SNP on Tuesday will lay out the case for a referendum on independence, probably in 2010, in which Scots will be asked whether or not they want to separate from the UK.

Salmond says that the White Paper will re-emphasise his government's commitment to independence, which he believes will improve Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK, Europe and the wider world. He adds: "The belief of the Scottish government is that these relationships and interests would be far more beneficial and better served were Scotland to become an independent nation... but we will respectfully listen to the voices and views of other people who may wish to travel with us at least some way down the road."

Salmond's words can be seen as a sign he accepts that, with pro-independence parties holding only 50 of the Parliament's 129 seats, he stands little chance of winning support for an independence referendum.

Last night, opposition parties went on the attack, claiming his "obsession" with constitutional affairs was a distraction from the real issues facing the country.

Scottish Labour leader Jack McConnell said: "The SNP's push for independence is unwanted, and a waste of taxpayers' money. This follows an election where every aspect of the independence debate was given a full airing."

Secretary of State for Scotland Des Browne MP said: "It is time that the minority SNP administration stopped grandstanding about policies people in Scotland don't want and got on with the job of governing."

A spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives said: "There is a clear Unionist majority, both in the Parliament and in the country. It's time now to stop all talk of independence and focus on the bread and butter issues."

Nobody was available for comment from the Scottish Lib Dems.

The full article contains 388 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 August 2007 11:27 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: The Scottish Parliament
 
1

I'm no really here,

12/08/2007 11:23:03

Well I suppose opening up the comment board at this time of day is better than nothing.

2

busbyfh,

12/08/2007 11:25:07

A spokesman for the Scottish Conservative party - Should belt up and bile his heed.

3

Richard,

west lothian 12/08/2007 11:26:06

At last why the delay?

Pity I'm off to watch the footie, will be back later.

Salmond, boxing clever as usual!

4

I'm no really here,

12/08/2007 11:38:41

There is that word "grandstanding" again. Is it the latest in-word at Westminster? Is it the most "damaging" thing they can think to say?

Remember that Des Browne, when we took up his part-time, evening job as Scottish Secretary, stated that Devolution was NOT a process but a once-off event, so we know where the British Government and Scottish Labour stand.

The Scottish opposition parties will not want to open this debate again, as at the election they campaigned on a platform of "We're not capable of governing ourselves".

5

Dougie Dougla,

Brisbane 12/08/2007 11:40:20

Pretty quite around here today!

A day of taking stock for unionists it would seem.

Do not fight it - embrace it

6

I'm no really here,

12/08/2007 11:40:29

I think that most of what needs to be said has already been posted on the Sunday Herald.

7

'Hezza,

12/08/2007 11:51:57

drip, drip, drip...eventually the parliament will have all the power, and if not independent in name, it will be in practice. Greedy, greedy politicians, always wanting more.

On the other hand, if the Unionists think the Scottish Parliament should have further powers, what is wrong with having all of the powers anyway? After all, membership of the EU should mean we get all of the positives and none of the negatives.

8

MtnKat,

Oban Bound 12/08/2007 11:53:37

#5 There is also their other standby -"obsession". Starting to sound the the same song 120th verse,eh?
Good Afternoon, Methalions
How is the paella?
Trams only on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

9

Fat Freddy"s Cat,

12/08/2007 11:55:25

Scottish Labour leader (not for much longer) Joke McDonneld said: "The SNP's push for independence is unwanted, and a waste of taxpayers' money. This follows an election where every aspect of the independence debate was given a full airing."

Has Joke carried out a secret referendum?
We wont know its not wanted until we do.

As fo a 'full airing'... nope, Labour tried there damndest to bring independence to the fore in there ever so negative campaign. It backfired on them as can be shown by the election results.

10

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 12:00:28

#9. 'Hezza
"...After all, membership of the EU should mean we get all of the positives and none of the negatives."

List the positives, please.

(I'm not hostile to independence. I just don't understand how you feel you would be independent, with 75% of your laws being handed down from EU. Obviously you would receive your orders more quickly after severing the Westminster link in the chain of command, so I suppose that would be a positive. Comparisons are often made with Norway re Scottish independence. Norway is not in the EU.)

11

European Scot,

12/08/2007 12:02:23

"Scottish Labour leader Jack McConnell said": 'The SNP's push for independence is unwanted, and a waste of taxpayers' money. This follows an election where every aspect of the independence debate was given a full airing'.

Check out the referendum poll on this site today.
The trend doesn't seem to be following the recent poll by the Scottish Daily Mail, on the matter of independence, but it would seem to indicate a reflection of their 48% figure for the SNP
The question asked here on this online poll is straightforward, and not ambiguous.

What say you AM2 ?

12

Boy Wonder,

12/08/2007 12:05:51

I have but two words for Joke McConnell .... Wendy Alexander!! :)

13

Rice for All,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 12:07:12

Alex should know by now that most people in Scotland seem to want a constitutional and funding arrangement where we can manage most of our affairs on our own and without undue influence from our pals in the South. He has the opportunity to do a lot of good for our country by strategically enhancing our relative position in the world, yet his politics dictate that he should attempt to steer us in a direction that many simply do not want to go.

14

Cracker06,

Livingston 12/08/2007 12:07:16

Should we achieve "Independence" how independent will we actually be. Alex Salmond has already said that financially we will keep the pound - so a lot of the financial control such as interest rates will be controlled by the Bank of England until we change over to the Euro when that control will move over to the European Central Bank. Also, he has stated his desire to join the EU again transferring control from Westminster to Brussels. The only thing that will really change is whose pulling the strings - if we are to be independent then let's be independent in the full sense of the word.

15

Edward,

12/08/2007 12:07:24

Just to mention something about the 'Scottish Six' .
The article in todays Sunday Herald, by Iain Macwhirter is well worth a read. It turns out that BBC Scotland actually did a pilot Scottish Six in 2004 to see if it could be done and what it would look like, quote 'Surprise, surprise: it worked extremely well. The programmes were well-presented and gave excellent UK and foreign coverage while treating devolved Scottish issues with the respect and authority they deserved....can well understand why the BBC didn't show them to the public. As soon as you actually see a Scottish Six, you wonder how we could have tolerated the present arrangement for so long. It doesn't equal parochialism'
Im please that Iain Macwhirter has revealed this as it puts paid to the crap and mis-information from Labour politicians as well as pro unionists
Perhaps The Scottish Broadcasting Commission can speak to BBC Scotland and see a copy of the Pilot and ask why they dont go ahead with it

16

Jings Crivens,

Paisley 12/08/2007 12:17:21

As the SNP only hve one goal and that is independenace what happens when they get it?

Who will their supporters have to blame when as Westminster and the English can't be used as excuse any more

Who will the Scots hate then???

17

Jings Crivens,

Paisley 12/08/2007 12:20:34

12. Ken S., England

The positive thing about the EU is that we are one of the big 3 ecomonimc blocks in the world able to take on the US and China to protect our interests.

The Uk, never mind an ndependent Scotland, would not have the clout to deal independently with these economic giants

18

Guga II,

Rockall 12/08/2007 12:22:32

#18 You.

19

Guga II,

Rockall 12/08/2007 12:23:56

#18 For the benefit of the Hootsmon (Pravda Branch) censors, my post at #21 was, in fact, a joke.

20

Guga II,

Rockall 12/08/2007 12:25:55

#22 AM Squared. How do you know it isn't the way to do it? Isn't that a rather myopic viewpoint? How about actually giving it a chance to see if it works?

21

Jings Crivens,

Paisley 12/08/2007 12:28:12

19. Methalions

Actually Ken S is right the laws are passed down from EU and all the other contries do is rubber stamp them and introduce them in their contries.

All countries are now passing more powers to the EU and a Federal Europe is only a few decades away. When that happens it wil be the main European countries like Germany, France, England that will have the power as votes will be based on population to get away from minor states like luxibuerg, Belgium having an unbalanced impact on the EU (I believe that this is already being talked about now following the recent enlargement).

Under this system an independent Scotland would have little influence or power within the Greater EU

22

Jings Crivens,

Paisley 12/08/2007 12:31:19

23. Guga II, Rockall

ha ha ha

23

Jings Crivens,

Paisley 12/08/2007 12:33:52

26. Methalions

Then its SNP turn to be voted out next as every government burns out after a couple of terms.

Perhaps we should scrap political parties and every MP/MSP is an independant with the national interest first.

24

Jim P,

Netherlands 12/08/2007 12:35:34

#18 Jings Crivens, Paisley

"As the SNP only hve one goal and that is independenace what happens when they get it?"

You set up a false premise then explain the objections to it - a technique long practiced by New Labour. The Scots don't need to "hate" anyone; why do you suggest that they will need to hate someone?

Independence is the natural state for any country. Once independent, the people of Scotland will be free to select their politicians by ballot as we do now. It will be up to the political parties in Scotland to establish their manifestos and offer themselves to the voters. The parties will not be dictated to by leaders outside of the country.

25

Alasdair777,

Highlands 12/08/2007 12:38:35

An Independant Scotland ....what a Joke. If we are really stupid enough to Sign everything over to the EU we will be far worse off than are are at present. Being part of the EU will enslave us to it with already at least 75% of all our laws ditcated to us by some beaurocrat in Brussels. Scotland would only succeed if it followed Norways example and remained OUTSIDE of the EU with a seperate trade agreement.

I cant believe that the S.N.P after all the years of complaining of being told what to do by England are so keem to just change their masters to the EU.

Independance......Dont make me laugh !

26

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 12:41:40

From the article;-

Nobody was available for comment from the Scottish Lib Dems. = they couldn't get in touch with joke whose in Argyle, apparently sulking !

27

Alasdair777,

Highlands 12/08/2007 12:42:24

Jim P Stated "The parties will not be dictated to by leaders outside of the country.

What planet are you on Jim ? Dont you know that the EU WILL dictate all Laws and matters ! If we sign up to the EU as full members then our days under Westminster will be a fond memory indeed.

Get real please.

28

Andra, Dundee,

12/08/2007 12:44:45

Are the SNP doing anything worthwhile at the moment?
Other than consitutional issues they don't seem to be up to much.

29

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 12:49:38

#19. Methalions

I was inferring that independence implies a nation making its own laws for the specific benefit of that nation.

Of course that has to take into account laws made necessary from international treaties that a nation has signed up to, to obtain the national benefit from such treaties. However, when the great majority of a nation's law arises from compliance with treaties, there has to be a question mark over the extent to which it is truly independent.


#20. Jings Crivens,
Much of the EU law embodied of course relates to trade aspects. That would be the same whether staying in the EU or simply trading with EU countries without being a member (just as exports to other parts of the world need to conform with local trade regulations).

However, the EU is now somewhat more than just trade, friendship & cooperation and it is going further down that road. I take it that you are content to become in due course a State of the United States of Europe. Nowt wrong with that, if that is your desire - but it ain't an independent Scotland!

30

Richard,

west lothian 12/08/2007 12:49:42

Alasdair777, Highlands

It is by no means certain we would join the single currency,sign up to the new E.U. constitution or anything else, all this will be open for debate in an independent Scotland and put to the people in a referendum.

So go on.............. LAUGH!

31

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 12:53:56

22 AM2, You say;-

There are specific powers I personally would like to see reallocated, but Labour and the Tories are right to call this whole exercise a distraction.

Why is it a distraction ?
the SNP are pushing ahead with the most active parliment EVER and are delivering their election promises all down the line.

The distraction is comming from people like you who don't want to face the arguement so they say ,it's just a distraction repeating the mantra while trying to ignore it, As D Steel say's it should just go away.

Name one piece of ledgislation the opposition have brought to the table, that this will be a distraction to ?

32

siusaidh,

12/08/2007 12:54:49

We need to be independent, sooner rather than later...

33

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 12:55:44

35. Andra, Dundee
They're no up to much at the moment because they've been in recess since the state opening.

34

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 13:00:41

G'Day all-Howsit Methalions! Thanks for the comments last nite-sorry I could not answer but my wife stopped me blogging after she gave me my last beer for the day(I'm allowed an extra one on Sunday)
Ya, political tastes are cyclical and electorates are disgustingly fickle. There is no doubt that Alex S is enjoying the "New Boy on the Block" period although I must admit he is a very able and extremely clever politician. The big difference with the SNp is that they are essentially a "one issue" party and this issue will dominate Scottish politics for some years to come so this in itself may etend their tenure. The other strong possibility is that the SNP will become entrenched as the resident party at Holyrood with the electorate seeing them as the specialist guardians of Scottish interests in the UK whilst rejecting(the electorate that is) full independence. Stripped of the Independence issue the SNP are similar policywise to the Libdems or even the Labour left wing so their raison d'etre in such a scenario ceases. Maybe the electorate would then give them the boot after(if) independence comes about. That would then leave the old Unionist parties in command free to campaign for reUnion with the rest of the UK!! Analogy-UK voters kick Churchill out after victory-Atlee landslide-few years later Churchill reinstated(I did not become Her Majesty's First Minister to preside over the liquidation of the British Empire!!!)

35

Edward,

12/08/2007 13:01:34

According to the Sunday Mail, there is supposed to be a secret (not secret now) pact between
Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems , who have had talks aimed at creating a united front against the Nationalists. It appears that they dont want the people to decide by referendum

So much for democracy

36

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 13:02:03

BBC News 24 online
Saturday, 11 August 2007

The SNP's first 100 days in power
By Iain MacWhirter
Presenter of BBC Radio 4's The SNP in Power: The First 100 Days

In its first 100 days, this SNP administration has astonished Scotland with its energy and confidence.

Even the leading Conservative columnist in Scotland, Alan Cochrane of the Daily Telegraph, has declared that "Alex Salmond is walking on water".

'Champion Scotland'

But now the mood has changed. There seems to be a new energy to Scottish public life.

The commentator Joyce MacMillan has declared "Scotland has had its revolution" - and the way the SNP have set about governing Scotland certainly seems revolutionary.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6942374.stm

37

Wisnaeme,

12/08/2007 13:02:36

Post 18,Jings,Crivens of Paisley.

As in the past,as in the present and most probably in the future.Scots will hate other Scots not of their persuasion or not of their stauchly held point of view.We're an argumentive race if the history lessons are anything to go by.That doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be an overwhelming concensus of opinion on whatever,merely a tempory ceasefire on whatever divides us before fresh hostilities break out over whatever.
Remember, we are all the sum of our personal experiences and that includes perceptions,rightfully or wrongfully held.
Yours cynical,a person who's lived a bit.Aye and leart a bit an all.
.

38

guru,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 13:02:46

To all you SNP dunderheads.. There will be no referendum as it won't get voted through as you don't have a majority...
No surprise that you don't get it as you can't add up!

Recent poll puts support for independence at 31%. by the way... There is also no "unionist plot" to keep Scotland part of the UK as the majority of English people (who live in the S.East of England) couldn't care a fig for what happens up here and wouldn't even notice if Scotland sank into the N.Sea without a trace.

39

Richard,

west lothian 12/08/2007 13:07:12

Geoff, South Africa

DREAM ON GEOFF!

40

Liz Gilchrist,

Highlands 12/08/2007 13:08:38

The main concern for many is the fact all political parties make promises - but when the control is theirs the voices of the people are ignored.

Neil MacCormick MEP for the SNP said "I will welcome the success of the Euro and we should call for an independent Scotland to join the single currency". Hmmmmmm sounds as if SNP have been considering it seriously.

Norway is used by the SNP as an example to follow.......but they are not full EU members, they have a Free Trade Agreement and the European Economic Area Agreement which means they still have full control over their laws and sovereignty.
Life will be very very different if Scotland becomes a full EU member........ there will be a very high cost to its people.

The government has admitted that Vital powers will be surrendered to Europe under the new EU constitution.
Neil O Brian director of Open Europe group said “If we sign up to the constitutional treaty it is irreversible. We must have a referendum”

I suspect a Referendum in the UK would prove catastrophic for the Brown Government and so he will refuse to have one for that very reason.

Why would any country want to give up its sovereignty?

41

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 13:11:07

22. AM2, Glasgow
I would also like to see these powers devoved to Holyrood:
The Constitution
Foreign affairs
Defence
International development
The Civil Service
Financial and The Cconomy
National security
Immigration and nationality
Misuse of drugs
Trade & Industry
Energy regulation (e.g. electricity; coal, oil and gas; nuclear energy)
Transport (e.g. regulation of air services, rail and international shipping)
Social security
Employment
Abortion, genetics, surrogacy, medicines
Broadcasting
Equal opportunities

List of reserved matters:
Scotland Act 1998
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/80046--t.htm

42

jkr,

Lochwinnoch Greater Glasgow 12/08/2007 13:11:34

If the Scottish Parliament is to have any credibility it must get more powers. Each state in the USA has far more power than the Scot. Par. and are still part of the Union. The Scot Par should have more tax raising powers to replace those currently imposed by Westminster e.g. VAT, excise duties, fuel tax, etc. which could be used to Scotland's advantage.
Is there any other country in the world that has a non tax raising parliament?

43

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 13:14:11

45. guru, Edinburgh
I think you put the case for the self governance of Scotland most eloquently.

Would you pass your wages to your next door neighbour and ask him to look after your home for you?

44

Edward,

12/08/2007 13:14:31

There seems to be a grunging acceptance by pro-union supporters and politicians that the so called 'union of equals' is not that equal after all!
Those same pro-union supporters and politicians have to recognise that Scotland could quite easily be an Independent country with the dissolution of the union and to have two seperate Kingdoms, that of Scotland and England. The arguement therefore that pro-unionists must come up with is for the people to decide between an Independent Scotland, that can be successful or to remain in the Union, but on the basis of making both England and Scotland more equal and have equal responsabilties.
To add into this, is the consideration of the EU, Scotland would in all likelyhood be a member of the EU, so the added aspect is this, do the people want an Independent Scotland thats part of the EU or do they want an added layer of government in the shape of the UK.
My personal preference is to do away with the UK government and have two equally independent nations Scotland and England within the EU

45

Richard,

west lothian 12/08/2007 13:15:16

guru, Edinburgh

"To all you SNP dunderheads.. There will be no referendum as it won't get voted through as you don't have a majority...
No surprise that you don't get it as you can't add up"

Oh, we can add up.

On the one hand you say there's no support for independence and on the other you fight against a referendum.....and we're the "dunderheads"?

46

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 13:15:46

49. jkr, Lochwinnoch Greater Glasgow

The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man have more powers than the Scottish government.

47

Edward,

12/08/2007 13:17:50

#45 Guru
Perhaps you should be enlightened by reading the Herald, which has the correct figures of 49% in favour not 31%. The Scotsman and some othr 'papers' have twisted the figures around to suite there needs.
To quote 'Asked if they would approve or disapprove of Scotland becoming independent, the poll found the electorate would be 31% against, 49% in favour, with 20% unsure. When asked last January how they would vote in an independence referendum, 51% was in favour, 36% against with 14% unsure'
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1611...

48

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 13:22:40

47. Liz Gilchrist, Highlands
>>>Neil MacCormick MEP for the SNP said "I will welcome the success of the Euro and we should call for an independent Scotland to join the single currency". Hmmmmmm sounds as if SNP have been considering it seriously.<<<

If you had been paying attention during the May3rd elections you would have heard this subject done to death.

FYI On independence the Scottish Treasury will shadow Sterling until such time as preparations can be made to enter the Euro.

The SNP have committed to remain in the EU and to join the Eurozone where the bulk of our market opportunities lie.

49

Richard,

west lothian 12/08/2007 13:22:57

Edward @ 55

Is that correct about the poll, only found the Harald using those figures with many other saying the opposite?

I did find it a bit sus and out of kilter with other recent polls!

50

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 13:26:58

AM2 gives us the benefit of his wisdom

“Devolution is working but can work better and needs to be given the time. This certainly isn’t the way to do it.”

Apparently the electorate of Scotland disagree.
The most recently published opinion poll shows a massive increase in the endorsement of the manner in which the SNP are carrying out devolved government.

A massive 45% increase in support for the SNP in less than 100 days in power, attests to the fact that they are doing something right.

Fold the tents unionists, the tide is against you.

51

Edward,

12/08/2007 13:31:53

#58 AM2
And why have the Herald 'clearly got it wrong'????
Love to hear your reasons
I also did say other papers such as the Sunday Mail are also twisting the poll around
The Herald is the only paper that actually quotes what the findings are verbatum

52

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 13:32:10

Headline should read of course" I will (HAVE TO) work with Unionists to get more powers"

53

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 13:35:47

45 Guru,
If the question is not put this time, then it will be a central issue during the 2011 election campaign. So if not now then later

Labour has been in control of Scotland for over fifty years, it started with one election win

54

MtnKat,

Oban Bound 12/08/2007 13:36:12

#18 Jings
I had a flippant reply at my fingertips when, luckily or not so, I was called away from the computer. I haven't been able to get your post off of my mind and I would ask the forebearance of the others on this board while I reply.
Hate is a powerful word, Jings.
Do I 'hate' the judge who gave my husband custody of his two children then decreed that he must make a 7 hour return journey every other Friday and Sunday night to take them for weekend visitation with their alcoholic mother? A decree that cost him his life on a stormy night last October.
No. Do I blame and despise him from the bottom of what is left of my heart? Yes.
Jings, my days are difficult enough without adding the burden of 'hate' to them.
And never doubt that hate IS a burden. One, moreover which usually destroys the bearer.
We are in command of a wonderful language with nuances to communicate our thoughts and emotions. Surely you can find a more appropriate word to use.
We're human and individual, all of us have different life experiences that define us. Hence the opinions that many are so passionate about. By all means, attempt to sway someone elses opinion, but please hesitate before using so destructive and divisive a word such as that one.
Respectfully submitted.

55

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 13:38:44

45. guru, Edinburgh
By my arithmetic and feel free to correct my working
49% In favour of independence; 20% Unsure; might be interpreted as 'possibles' in the independence column with upto 69% in favour.
A clear majority.

On the no side; 31% Against with 20% Unsure would give 51% in favour for the possibles' unionist column, not such a clear majority within the margins for error.

Even given the very pro SNP approval ratings current, if we make a straight split for the 'Unsures' 50/50, that would present the independence column with a clear 18% margin not dissimilar to the 16% lead (within the margin for error) that the SNP government enjoys over New labour in the polls.

56

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 13:39:20

58 AM2,
I suggest you check the opinion page of the herald again

57

Alasdair777,

12/08/2007 13:40:30

livilion....Why on this earth would you consider it a wise policy to actually want to join a forign run superstate that tells you everything you are to do and you have absoutly no say in the matter.

Do you really call that Independance ?

I call that Enslavement ! To advocate enslaving the free Scottish people to a monster called the European Union is madness in itself. By all means let us have a free trade agreement like Norway but for goodness sake wake up and realise what you are really considering here.

Scottish true Independance will never happen under Europe. It wont happen under Westminster either ofcourse. To break up with England is one thing but to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire of the European Union is quite another.

No to Westminster. Definatly NO to Europe.

58

European Scot,

12/08/2007 13:53:25

41 Geoff

"That would then leave the old Unionist parties in command free to campaign for reUnion with the rest of the UK!! Analogy-UK voters kick Churchill out after victory-Atlee landslide-few years later Churchill reinstated(I did not become Her Majesty's First Minister to preside over the liquidation of the British Empire!!!)..."

An independent Scotland will possibly be part of the European Union.
The idea of a United states of Europe was very much favoured by the following gentleman.

Quote:-

"I wish to speak to you today about the tragedy of Europe. (...) Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as if by a miracle transform the whole scene, and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and as happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. (...) The first step in the recreation of the European Family must be a partnership between France and Germany."

Winston Churchill
Speech at Zurich University
19th September 1946

Once Scotland has a speaking role to play in this larger Union, the idea that it will relinquish its independence and go back to being a non speaking 'extra' within a smaller Union is very unlikely.
Take a look at the online referendum on this site today to get a snapshot of opinion held here, not an accurate scientific poll by any means, but indicative of a trend that shows less support for the UK.
Perhaps you should continue to be influenced by Winston Churchill.

59

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 13:56:13

67. Alasdair777
Well thankyou for your support for Scottish Independence

Why on this earth would you consider it a wise policy to actually want to join a forign run superstate that tells you everything you are to do and you have absoutly no say in the matter.

You call that Enslavement.
I call that the United Kingdom.

To advocate enslaving the free Scottish people to a monster called the United Kingdom is madness in itself. By all means let us have a free trade agreement like Norway but for goodness sake wake up and realise what you are really considering here.

Sounds like 300 year old news my friend.

60

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 13:58:44

68 AM2,
see my post at 66

61

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 13:59:17

69. AM2, Glasgow
By now you should realise nobody uses your hyperlinks because they usually contradict your point anyway.

Give us a link if you must to the original poll then you may have reason to feel smug,..or not.

Howabout it?

62

Edward,

12/08/2007 13:59:30

#68 AM2
Actually Yes Im saying there all wrong!
THe BBC are quoting the Daily Mail, who in turn quoting YouGov, except it was not from YouGove it was from ScottishOpinion
Its highly improbable that support for the SNP would increase, yet Independence drop by such a large margin. The difference in the poll shown in the Herald, between January and now is only 2 percentage points for the pro independence count and 5 percentage points for those against, this fits with the unsures which likewise has changed 6 percentage points
If there had been a large drop of 20 percentage points in the pro camp and an increase of 13 percentage points in the anti camp, without any change in the unsures within an eight month cycle, then woul suggest either the first poll was flawed or the second one is

63

Alasdair777,

12/08/2007 14:02:57

European Scot.

Interesting that you name is Europen Scot and not Scottish European.

I think its clear where you true loyalties lie.

Being another cog in the wheel of the European Superstate is not healthy for scotland. Being an Independant nation with free trade agreements is quite another matter. Following in Norways path would make sensible economic policy. Norway chose not to give away its sovereignty either and neither shoud we.

64

Alasdair777,

12/08/2007 14:06:06

Livillion

You are most welcome for the support for an Independant Scotland but that will never happen under the cloud of restrictions and burden that Europe will impose on our country if we Join the EU and take the Mark.....er I think I mean Euro....or do I !

65

Hello,

UK 12/08/2007 14:07:39

When people say of wanting more powers for the Scottish Parliament but don't want independence which powers is it they want transferred north of the border?

66

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 14:10:37

#71. European Scot
WC certainly said that in 1946. However, his enthusiasms varied at different times, as discussed in:
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pagei...

Conclusion:
"..... Some historians do not see Churchill's statements as inconsistent with his actions, since there never was a real chance, under Churchill, for Britain to participate in a supranational European organization. Others insist Churchill sincerely believed in the progressive merging of continental sovereignty but was unsure of Britain's membership in it in the immediate or near future....".

67

Liz Gilchrist,

Highlands 12/08/2007 14:14:33

"Alasdair777
Being another cog in the wheel of the European Superstate is not healthy for scotland. Being an Independant nation with free trade agreements is quite another matter. Following in Norways path would make sensible economic policy. Norway chose not to give away its sovereignty either and neither shoud we."

I agree totally with your comment. Norway is one of the most successful examples of how it should be done.

68

Hello,

UK 12/08/2007 14:16:19

I know this is logic,but wouldn't Alex Salmond be better off having a four option referendum on Scotland's future? The options should be
1. Go back to the situation pre 1997 where the Scottish Office ran the show in Scotland.
2. Keep the current staus quo devolution set up.
3. Increase the amount of powers the Scottish Parliament has short of independence.
4. Full Independence for Scotland.

69

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 14:21:30

AM2

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. I can quote statistics which show that support for independence has grown from 27% to 31% (14.8%), in the last few months.

However, that is not my main point.

My point remains thus, there is a swelling tide of opinion which suggests that the concept of Scottish independence is now and truly on the political horizon. Those of you who disagree with this concept are now required to defend your position in a manner which has never previously been asked of you.

Why should we have a subservient relationship with our neighbours?

Why should our morals, culture and view upon life, be defined by those whose motives we despise?

Why should we be governed by a small clique, whose main ambition is the furtherance of their own career, to the exclusion of the constituents who (sadly) voted them in?

I am originally from the west of Scotland, and look forward to the day when I can walk down any street there, and see the flag of my country proudly flying over all public buildings.

I will happily view a large saltire flying from Edinburgh Castle ramparts as a good start.

70

eddylongshanks,

12/08/2007 14:22:08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khrpy4V0-U4&mode=relat...=

71

Alasdair777,

12/08/2007 14:25:48

Buly Wee Alba

Fully agree with you.

Ditto as far as EU is concerned though.

72

European Scot,

12/08/2007 14:33:11

76 Alasdair777

European Scot just flows better, presumably you chose your name for reasons that best suited you.
My priority is Scotland.
If we go the full independence alone route, that would be fine by me, if that was a majority decision and in the best interests of the country.
My own preference is within Europe, as a member state ( country ) with all the advantages of a large trading group and having the benefits of the protective umbrella of the European Union, economically and militarily.
Living in Europe I see better life style, better amenities, transport links etc.
There is a positive more relaxed attitude to life in general, far less confrontational.
It's just a personal view based on my own experiences, some say through rose coloured specs, but having experienced 'UK' and Europe, I'll stay over here.
However the approach of an independent Scotland would have me packing one set of bags, for a return to the North, pronto !

73

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 14:37:51

European Scot-thank you for your interesting reply. I was being (to an extent) flippant! Obviously if Scotland does become independent it is highly unlikely to ever rejoin the UK. As for Winstons wise words-I agree with them in their entirety. What I do not agree with is the SNP's desire to move in the EXACTLY opposite direction by destroying the internationally respected and well established Union that is GB and NI. To strive so singlemindedly in the pursuit of balkanising the island of Britain on the one hand, and then claim that they will embrace the EU and all that this entails on the other seems to me a strange paradox. The European Union will do far more to extinguish Scottish Independence than any "threat" that the United Kingdom poses in the imagination of the Nats. And to boot the EU whilst being a laudable endeavour at cooperation will be no substitute for Great Britain. Ask the British soldiers in Afghanistan what they think of EU support for their cause!

74

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 14:38:52

81. Hello, UK
Not at all, for one simple reason:
some of us remember the 1979 devolution referendum where Margaret Thatcher encouraged Scots to vote against the limited devolution package reluctantly on offer from the Lame Duck Labour party of Jim Callaghan.

Under the Tories, Maggie was promising to deliver a much stronger devolution package for Scotland.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me

75

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 14:43:31

77. Alasdair777
Yes I hear that Eire is now thinking of withdrawing from the EU in order to rejoin the UK where markets are much more 'lucrative' and social conditions under Whitehall are more in line with what they enjoyed pre-independence.

Eire now exports more to the UK than Scotland does to the entire EU.

76

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 12/08/2007 14:44:26

Let's focus on achievements so far...

1/ Wee 'Joke' is out.
2/ Trams fiasco overspend is out.
3/ Bridge tolls will be out.
4/ We have a party in power which is sticking to its manifesto - no wonder 'Joke' is embarrassed!

and this has been achieved without independence!

77

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 14:48:45

89-and this has been achieved without independence.
Exactly.

78

Alasdair777,

12/08/2007 14:48:46

European Scot.

I share those sentiments with you but you see the European Union has no need of Independent countries. Its only wants states under its own control and administration.

Now there is nothing wrong with sharing better amenities transport links or life style with a muatually beneficial free trade agreement and other cooperation but I and the greater majority of people in this country dislike us loosing automy over our own affairs. We dislike not being in charge of our borders and having the vast majority of our laws made for us by others not even of our country.

If we join up with the Eu we loose all these things and gain nothing.

I was prompted to enter the blog when I saw that other nationlists were thinking they could be a sovereign Independent nation and still be a full member of the EU. It simply wont and cannot work that way.

The truely best way forward for Scotland is based around the Norway model. Ever wonder why they dont become full members of the EU ? For exactly the same reasons Ive described and Norway is an incredible prosperous country.

Scotland has the same potential but I want to see Saltire's Flying over our public buildings not EU flags !

We do not have to trade our sovereignty for good trading agreements within Europe. To do so is not a fair trade and by becoming a full member of the Eu that is what would happen.

Scotland has fought long and hard for its Independence and may be close to achieving this. To trade our westminister master For another will not benefit Scotlands people.

If we are to be a truely Independent nation we must be exactly that. Independent from all and beholden to no one.

79

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 14:49:07

#85. European Scot
"..protective umbrella of the European Union, .. militarily"

Not of course that NATO has had anything to do with our security these past few decades!

Leaving aside all dissensions regarding reasons for involvement in Iraq etc, it is a fact that the UK has military credibility because its armed forces have had a bit more practice in the profession in latter years than most of our mainland European friends (as indeed have our transAtlantic NATO partners).

The UK Force's credibility owes much to the contribution of its Scottish personnel.

Thus, in effect, you attribute unwarranted credit to the EU for the protection provided by your own military chaps & chapesses!

80

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 14:51:42

86. Geoff, South Africa
The SNP are not about destroying anything.
They wish Scotland to revoke the Treaty of Union and take responsibilty for her own affairs.

England will not sink under the English Channel afterwards, but simply get on with what she has always been good at, looking after England.

Scotland and England will then have a normal international relationship in exactly the same way as Britain presently has with her European partners such as France or Eire.

Better even, given the French and Irish animosity to English institutions.

eg I hear that the French President of FIFA has got it in for England's 2018 World Cup bid and is determined to spike it.

81

Miss H,

12/08/2007 14:57:01

90 Geoff

And we could achieve so much more with independence.

82

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 14:59:03

#88. livilion
"..I hear that Eire is now thinking of withdrawing from the EU in order to rejoin the UK.. "

Mmm, that's an interesting thought - a Federation (or somesuch) of the British Isles, with largely/wholly self-governing component nations.

Ah, that'll start me dreaming on a proposal I read elsewhere for an Anglosphere, i.e. USA, Canada, Oz, NZ, Britain, Ireland, etc, in a formal cooperative alliance.

Maybe then stop treating immigrant DownUnders as more dangerous than Mad Mullahs.

83

Miss H,

12/08/2007 15:03:01

92

Wars are not caused by armies - they are caused by a failure of politics and diplomacy to keep the peace.

The EU is one of - of not the most - successful political institutions in world history.

It has delivered peace in western Europe.

The peace we now know cannot be ascribed to any military formation. It is the boring political bureacracy of the EU that locks us into an interdependent and cooperative relationship and has given this generation of Europeans a freedom that their ancestors would have found unimaginable.

84

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 15:05:39

93 Livilion-re World Cup 2018-about what I would expect from the Frogs(wont get into trouble for saying frogs will I?)
92 Ken. Well said! Anyone relying on the EU militarily has to be naive in the extreme. Also with ref to yesterdays post re Rn orders for Scottish shipyards-the new Scottish Navy would be most unlikely to order anything of significance from the Clyde. Their navy would be well catered for by their initial divi from the RN. Thereafter-crumbs for the Clyde from the Scottis Navywhich will be a very nominal force under the SNP altho I do not see the RN cutting them out -they make good ships and as u say we would continue to be close friends
sorry syntax-in a hurry

85

IainGlasgow,

12/08/2007 15:05:56

Labour claim this is an unwanted waste of taxpayers money.

Well they should know shouldn't they? Given thinks like the Iraq war, Replacing Trident and ID Cards make them the nation's leading authority on unwanted wastage of taxpayers money.

As for the Lib Dems silence perhaps they're getting withdrawal symptoms from no longer being in government and see an opportunity to get a couple of ministerial cars if the back the referendum and help form a working majority coalition.

86

Miss H,

12/08/2007 15:05:57

95

I would not get too excited about that poll - either the 48% or the 31% figure.

Look who the poll was carried out by - they still use the same methodology that gave Neil Kinnock his resounding victory in 1992!

87

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 15:08:07

91. Alasdair777
We've had 300years of missrule from Westminster, we've had enough.

Stories about the bogeyman have been played ad nausium for all the time that Scots have been permitted to have a say.

The Nazis-WWII, fair enough, The Commies-Cold War, The Bosses Harold Wilson, The new Albania Maggie Thatcher, Osama Bib Laden Honest Tony.

In what way would Scots be worse off in a market of 27 European nations compared with just England and Wales.

Why would using the euro of our greatest potential customers put us at a disadvantage over using a sterling which is liable to raids from unfriendly markets as happened on Black Wednesday?

No-one listens to our voice at Westminster so what should we fear we'd lose at Brussels?

Don't you mean England is worried about losing bragging rights for being on a Permanent seat at the UN Security Council, the G8, and the world nuclear WMD club?

Scotland has no need of any of the above and would miss none of them.

Say BOO!

88

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 15:10:43

96. Ken S., England
That was your history book you were reading.
Yes they used to call it the British Empire if you're reading the same text as I did.

89

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 15:10:45

Just seen Alex and HM the Q on the Sky News.
Seem to get on rather well.

90

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 15:16:32

97 Miss H-some truth in what u say but dont give the EU credit for peace. The Cold war united old european adversaries and the main enemy, the USSR was defeated by its own unworkable ideology and the ever present military might of the good old much maligned USA underwrote it all.

91

MNS,

Fife (fae Dundee) 12/08/2007 15:18:09

Words, words words... 'taste' the Scottish passion - Visit Utube.com, enter the words - "Scotlands national anthem" turn up the volume and experience. Well done the boys! -

Scotland 31 Ireland 21

SNP voter.
(Shhh...Don't let on to the wife - she's from Ireland)

92

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 15:19:36

95. AM2, Glasgow
You disappoint AM2, these references all refer to the poll in the Daily Mail but none link to the original source.
The BBC even quotes Friday's UGov poll in the Daily Mail with its throwawy 31% against independence.

The Herald is the only source of all that you quoted that even comes close to providing the source.

I liked
The results from Progressive Scottish Opinion are:

If a Holyrood election was held tomorrow, which party would you vote for?

SNP 48%
Labour 32%
Tories 8%
Lib Dems 8%
Greens 2%
SSP 2%


How satisfied are you with the SNP's performance to date?

Very satisfied 10%
Quite satisfied 30%
Neither 25%
Quite dissatisfied 7%
Very dissatisfied 5%
Unsure/don't know 23%

12% polled were dissatisfied to some extent with the SNP.

93

Alasdair777,

12/08/2007 15:20:33

Livillion..."We've had 300years of missrule from Westminster, we've had enough."

So you want the next 300 years of misrule from Brussels ?

Why not simply rule ourselves. We simply must as Scots take the lead and stop asking other people to make our decisions for us. It really is that simple.

We can trade with the member nations of Europe as does Norway.

Why do you insist we lose our sovereignty. Norway hasnt. Europe will still trade with us if we have trade agreements in place.

But I really find it hard for a fellow Nationlist to want to hand Scotland over to the EU lock stock and barrel. You obviously dont like taking it from Westminster so why would taking it from the EU be better ? It would be worse. Far worse.

Scotland has the ability to run its own affairs.

94

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 15:21:42

AM2: (RE: story comment is closed on!!)

Yer so culbul to belive that.

1) These figurees don't include folk who are on incablity benfit (or what ever it's called) Doesn't cont single parents NOT at work (Thoes with weans under a certain age, think there changing it soon, though)

2) These are July figure, which means that they were nicely time to miss thoes, who were finishing universty (because the data would have been collected before they finshed). NOt many graduates have a job to go in to after leaving BUT most find work within a year, even if it's retail, bar work, cleaning (such a long way away form what there qualified to do)

2 b) In todays Sunday hearld there is a mention of 3,500 qualified teachers are finding it difficult to get work.

3) I heard throught the past 6months or so there was going to be a lot of redundences in Dundee and Perth (well not as many there). Had thouse redundencey allready taken place before this count, I dought it!!!

4) Some graduates leave the country go to places like England etc to find work, if they staied here then the unempolyement rate would be at an all time high.

P.S. I think you'll find I was talkng about highly skilled jobs, rather than non-skilled jobs. Theres to many non-skilled and NOT enough skilled work availble, unless yer a pulmber or energer or something on these grounds (BUT ye need to be qualifeid to do them too, by get s&^%* weages for a few years)

95

Miss H,

12/08/2007 15:24:50

110

Geta grip.

First we need to have our independence from Westminster.

That is a prerequisite of deciding our future relationship with the EU.

If you want to campaign for an independent Scotland to leave the EU then go ahead.

But first we need to be independent.

96

Jim P,

Netherlands 12/08/2007 15:25:45

"The First Minister concedes that he will have to work with people who want to go "at least some way down the road"

Alex Salmond did not mention "unionists" - do all the main parties now consider themselves to be unionists?

Do Scottish Labour party members really consider themselves to be unionists? We often hear of an element within SL that wants independence. Why is this not reflected in the views of their MSPs.

Only the Conservatives would traditionally have seen themselves as the party of the union, and this eventually worked against them in their No/No position on devolution.

97

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 15:25:48

#111. AM2: So ye don't work for them then!!!!!

Are they assamed of the results they found (shame!!!)

98

European Scot,

12/08/2007 15:25:58

79 Ken S

Good afternoon Ken S. still remember your food reference to Salmond and mince in Europe I think it was !

The reference to his comment in the 30's is interesting
"We have our own dreams. We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not compromised."

Clearly influenced by the War in the post 1945 era he favoured European unity but not federal, on an intergovernmental basis.
The problem seems to be that he was torn between two sets of loyalties, to the Empire/ Commonwealth which would have had a great influence on British policy and his attitude towards a united Europe.

92

The Scottish regiments, some hopefully re-instated, would be hopefully become part of a European defence force.
I thought that the EU favoured a separate defence force, in a move away from NATO, something that the Americans view with suspicion. I would just prefer to think of a European defence force in the future, but whatever.

Anyway back to today, what is the prospect of an independent England ?

99

Dennis,

North Isles 12/08/2007 15:26:39

SNP thus far ...all form and no substance

Salmond has more froth than a bottle of light ale in a jogger's rucksack.

100

Alasdair777,

12/08/2007 15:27:16

Miss H

Agreed. But let us not be fooled for one second that Scotland can be Independent and a member state of the EU. They are NOT compatible !

101

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 15:28:54

111. AM2
Now why wouldn't they or the Daily Mail publish this information now that it is in the public domain?

East Kilbride News publish UGov poll finding which shows Scots in favour of adopting Morris Dancing as a sport for the 2012 Commonwealth Games?

Moon is made of green cheese anyone?

102

Miss H,

12/08/2007 15:29:17

108

This poll was carried out by Progressive Scottish Opinion - they do not subscribe to the same standards as the major polling organisations.

I do not therefore think that it is worth anybody's time getting worked up about it.

I'm not saying it is a rogue poll but it was not carried out using the best practice methodology that exists in the industry and so I would not place any reliance on the result.

103

Miss H,

12/08/2007 15:31:53

109

You won't get the raw data - in itself a sign that this is not really in the same category as polls from the mainstream polling organisations.

104

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 15:32:41

122. AM2
Every article you suggest quotes the Daily Mail most simply refering to 31% against independence printed in the Daily Mail.
The usual caveat when they rip off someone elses story without access to a credible source.

refer to #123 above.

105

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 15:33:34

Livilion - Scotland's biggest market was, is and always will be the rest of the UK. That is a simple economic fact. Joining the Euro would harm Scotland's ability to trade with its most important economic and business partner. Again, a simple fact.

106

Alasdair777,

12/08/2007 15:35:22

Fellow Nationalists

Im off now but ponder this.

If Scotland were to win Independence from westminster but still remain part of the UK with orders taken from westminster would be still be a soverign Independent nation ?

No ? Are you sure ?

So if Scotland were to win Independence from Westminster then join up to the Europen union where at least 75% of all decisions would be made in brussels for us would you still call Scotland an Independent nation.

Come on get real folkes.

Independence means being Independent from everyone. Westminster and the Eu alike. We dont want nor do we need anyone lording it over us anymore.

Did I mention the Norway model ? :)

107

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 15:36:33

120. Alasdair777
You are entitled to your opinion.
Your opinion is wrong.

Few countries could have better credentials than Scotland for membership of the EU.

Not the least of which being that we already carry EU passports.

108

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 15:38:30

#123. livilion: Oh has the EK News really hit an ultimit low these days.

I must admit the the quality isn't as good as it use to be, did they loes their decient writers to the EK Mail.

P.S. Was that an article written by Lorain Kelly by any chance (It wouldn't be the 1st peice of mince shes written in that paper).

109

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 15:39:09

Livilion-the23% "dont knows" is an eye opener.

110

mesmiths,

fife 12/08/2007 15:39:22

'A spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives said: "There is a clear Unionist majority, both in the Parliament and in the country. It's time now to stop all talk of independence and focus on the bread and butter issues." SHAME ON THEM.

Nobody was available for comment from the Scottish Lib Dems.'....SHAME ON THEM.


We have come to expect the kind of shrill posturing, above, from the labour party, to anything rearding the constitution. They will probably continue to stuff their heads deeper into the sand, on this. Whilst, incidently, achieving very little from their ample time in power. So much for 'social justice' and the 'bread and butter'.

However, the Tories and Lib Dems, elected, were elected on a ticket which included enhancing parliamentary powers. They said it was natural and that there is a need for it. This is a parliament which clearly shows the will of the people is for more devolution at the very least. We are watching and waiting for them to grow up and become involved!

111

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 15:43:01

129. Alasdair777
Consider this:
Are the Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Italian, Irish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovenian, Spanish and Swedish, etc, independent sovereign nations?

Me? To paraphrase from 'When Harry met Sally':
"I'll have what they're having!"

112

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 15:43:22

Good night all- thanks for the rap-taking my wife to sample some of Durbans best Indian curry.
That was a nice tie Alex was wearing.
Quite a dapper wee fella.

113

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 15:44:29

129 - to have a favoured trading relationship with the EU, Norway is obliged to incorporate almost all European laws into its own national laws. Norwegians, of course have no say in how these European laws are developed.

That said, given recent developments in Europe, European law will increasingly be developed by those countris withrhelargest populations as the new European treaty makes almost universal provision qulaified majority voting in almost every area. With 50 million people, an independent England will continue to have abig say in how the EU develops. With 5/6 million people, an independent Scotland will be an observer and will have to do as it is told. But we will get a nice seat on the European Council.

114

Miss H,

12/08/2007 15:45:00

127

If it makes economic sense to stay with sterling then we can stay with sterling.

If it makes economic sense to join the euro then we can join the euro.

If it makes economic sense to have our own currency then we can do that.

Independence is about widening our options not narrowing them to whatever the rest of the UK does.

115

Media 1,

cape town 12/08/2007 15:47:03

Salmond will work closer with the unionists in order to gain the power HE craves. Salmond is a power monger, hell bent on forcing his pathetic ideoligies on the rest of us. If we had a referendum right now, the majority of people in Scotland would vote against independence, yet Mr Salmond appears to think we are all mad, and that we all want what he wants. Problem is, he wants a one party state system in which he becomes the wee political demi god pulling the strings, whereas the people want the union system. Scotland is not a toy Salmond, so stop playing silly games.

116

Miss H,

12/08/2007 15:47:17

135

And your point is?

117

Richard,

west lothian 12/08/2007 15:47:40

Yes what new significant powers do the unionists want for the Scottish parliament?

We must be told before the next U.K. general election, we simply have to know so they can be held to account?

118

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 15:48:00

Livilion - look closely at a number of those countries you wish to be like. Spain, for instamce? Or Italy or Germany? All federal states to a greater or lesser extent in which historic nations such as Catalonia, Bavaria and Lombardy have their own governments but work with a central government as well. And do so very successfully.

119

Alasdair777,

12/08/2007 15:48:06

Methalion

Drool.....Arrrghhhhh Norway Model.....arghhhhh.

Going now.

Bye

Oh and Livilion....you know Im right. EU is just another master. Find it hard to identify you as a true Nationalist when you are so ready to sell out to Europe,

120

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 15:48:43

#129. Alasdair777: We need to come out of one uinion at a time, 1stly the union of the Treaty, 2ndly the the union of the crowns and then if the EU is working more against us than anything else then come out of the EU.

I like the idea of the UK of GB & NI being in the EU as I trust the folk at the EU a lot more than I trust Westminster (NOT hard when I don't turst Westminster at all). BUT I'm also aware that Scotland's veiws are currently NOT aired in EU meets, where as all other countries (thouse with their independence that is) Do have a say.

I don't know what it would be like or if I want an independent Scotland to be part of the EU or NOT my main focus as a Scot Nat is getting out of the union of the treaty and the then the union of the crowns about 4 or 5 years latter.

I would like to see how things go with being a nation in the EU, If the interfer to much or do things wee don't like we can leave I say an independent Scotland should give the EU a try for about 5 years. If it's no working for us, we'll leave.

P.S. If you look at my plans Scotland could be completely indenpendent within 15 years.

121

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 15:49:14

131. Eve, Scotland
The Sparky?
Back in the late 70s as a budding pop star I was interviewed by a young Ms Kelly, that's how particular they were even then, but the lure of the bright lights drew her away from East Kilbusby forever.

You read it to see if your mates were mentioned, not for news, silly.

122

Miss H,

12/08/2007 15:49:57

141

Mad paranoid rantings.

The first thing the SNP will do after independence is hold a general election.

We are quite aware that we may lose that election. We could go through all the struggles that we have gone through just to see Labour and the Lib Dems back in power in an independent Scotland.

So be it.

That is democracy. Every single thing we do is for one purpose - to enable the people of Scotland to govern themselves the way people in other countries are able to do.

123

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 15:52:06

102. livilion,
"..they used to call it the British Empire if you're reading the same text as I did.."

I was more interpreting it as a new alliance of equals, rather than a nostalgic rerun of history (whilst acknowledging that history had something to do with how we are today) -- much as some posters here wish to revise the England/Scotland relationship on a new basis for the future.

124

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 15:52:39

144. Ex-pat observer
Fair enough, if the Highlands, the Islands, Borders etc want a federal arrangement in an independent Scotland let's have that conversation.

125

Richard,

west lothian 12/08/2007 15:52:42

Media 1, cape town

Do you actually believe this pish you write??!!??

"Problem is, he wants a one party state system in which he becomes the wee political demi god pulling the strings, whereas the people want the union system. Scotland is not a toy Salmond, so stop playing silly games".

God you're an embarrassment!

126

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 15:53:41

146 - The UK has a Scottish prime minister who has been directly elected by Scottish people. The same thing applies to the UK's finance minster. How on earth can you say that Scotland does not have a voice in Europe?

127

Geoff,

South Africa 12/08/2007 15:54:40

Alasdair777-dissension in the Nat ranks? Perhaps there should be an SNP and a Truly SNP?

Howsit Media 1-hope u are well-im off with the wee wife for curry-leave it to you to try and talk some sense into their heads! Cheers slaap lekker!

128

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 15:56:18

144 - Or let's make sure that Scottish Parliament uses the powers it currently has to make a real difference to the lives of Scottish people. Abstract conversations about independence are great for message boards but in te real world what counts are things such as the environment, health and education. The Scottish parliament can make a real difference in all those areas and many more. I would like to see it do that. Do you think it has so far?

129

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 16:06:01

The vote for the SNP has increased from 33% to 48% , and the unionists think that this merely a blip, nothing to worry about.

Hey hey hey, I’ve got news for you, you are being chased !

Goodbye!

130

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 16:06:34

145. Alasdair777
As a true nation Scotland always based her economy on trade with Europe, with Scandinavia, the Baltic ports, the Low Counties and the Hansiatic League.

Only the criminaly naive or ardent British Nationalist would try to cut themselves off from the most lucrative trading area on the planet.

North Korea could be the model you have in mind for complete independence.
It is not one that I would choose for my family's future prosperity..

But I'm sure leaving Westminster to continue as you were is not an option.

131

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 16:10:24

#127. Ex-pat observer: Such Negativity!!!!

How do you know this? (as in it "always will be" bit I'm refering too, hear)

Do you own a crystal ball? If no I suggest you don't try and atempt to predict the future!

132

Hello,

UK 12/08/2007 16:11:44

#120 Why can't Scotland be independent and be a member of clubs like Nato, EU etc? Surely, these things will be sorted out if and when the time arises?

133

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 16:14:18

157 - Scotland's economy is now integrated with England's economy, whatever the situation was a few hundred years ago. Given this fact, membership of the Euro would be very damaging for Scotland as long as England remained outside it. For example, our booming financial services sector - so dependent on English customers - would suffer enormously if all transactions were subject to exchange rate charges.

134

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 16:17:07

#147. livilion: I've been in it several times.

Funny you should say that BUT I rember read it on the years I turned 18 & 21 to see if any of my ex-classmates where in the paper to see how much older or younger they were than me!!!

135

Media 1,

cape town 12/08/2007 16:18:51

#151 Richard: Off-course I believe it.

Tell me this. What is Salmond trying to achieve? Since his arrival he has shouted loud about a 6 O;clock news channel for Scotland, he wants to trot the globe telling people about kilts, haggis and tartan, he has issues about which flags fly higher and he keeps telling us that not enough money is spent on quality television in Scotland. So, thus far he has done nothing, he is playing it safe and using trivial matters to stir the anti English emotion. He wont tackle any of the REAL issues, he cant, he does not know how, and even better, he gets to blame a lack of power for his faliure to make a difference. What a guy!

Salmond wants an SNP governed indepndent Scotland in which he is the leader.

136

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 16:21:27

#117. European Scot
Good afternoon ES.
"..food reference to Salmond and mince in Europe I think it was"

Ah yes, something along the lines of response to someone who said what a wonderful menu choice 'Salmond á l'Ecosse' sounded, which my Europhobe soul thought to be more like 'Salmond haché par l'Europe'.

Love Europe;hate EU


" ..[Winston Churchill] was torn between two sets of loyalties, to the Empire/ Commonwealth which would have had a great influence on British policy and his attitude towards a united Europe..."

It seems that there was also a recognition that to interweave the French and German economies would forestall any chance of a rerun of their previous three spats (the first with pre-German Prussia in 1871). Belgium and Luxembourg had a vested interest in that outcome, having been trampled over during both World Wars, and Netherlands ditto in WW2. Thus the impetus for integration was far more a mainland European thing. The interest of former Soviet Bloc States in joining the EU also had a dimension beyond purely economic advantage.

"... prefer to think of a European defence force in the future, but whatever."

Surely a defensive alliance wider than just EU is of even better protection? Let's call it something like, ooh,,er, 'NATO' perhaps ;-)

"..Anyway back to today, what is the prospect of an independent England.."

We're in the same position as SNP 70-80 years back., i.e. a long way to go. - though perhaps there might be a bit of acceleration because of the WLQ, at least towards English Parliament.

However, being lazy *%@s and well used to getting colonials to do our dirty work for us, perhaps the answer lies in Scottish hands!

137

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 16:27:44

#152. Ex-pat observer : Was it just me that read the front page wan day about March this year (Thats a geuss, all I can rember it was before the elections) There was an artcle I think it was in The Hearld that had a lecked statment that the Scottish repersentive were out in the hall way whille talks about the EU were gouing on.

Brown wasn't elected PM he had the title passed down to him from Tony or was it Tory Blair.

Who knows if he'll be elected PM at the next elections, I read in a past news paper artcle that some ex-PM and there likes from around the world who were in a simliar posstion to Brown, that some sucseed others didn't and where only in power untill the next election. With Brown it's to earily to tell.

BUT I'm with the opinion that we've had 3 terms of the Labour and before that we had a 4 terms with the tories,we all kno what mess the Torries made, I think at the NEXT GENERAL ELECTION most Scots should vote SNP and most English people should vote Lib Dem (I say this as I think theres people in deprived areas of England who have been let down by the Labour party and the Tories wouldn't improve things for them, so may be there only hope is Lib Dems)

138

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 16:28:47

158 - According to the Scottish government's own figures, Scotland exports around three times as much to the rest of the UK as it does to the whole of the rest of the world. However, exact figures are almost impossible to calculate as the UK economy is so integrated. However, I do not think there are any serious economists that would state that England is not and will not remain Scotland's most important trading partner. It's not a question of negativity, it is a matter of fact.

139

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 16:29:38

#153. Geoff: Unionism is only makes sense to Unionist everyone else thinks it's weird or couldn't care wan way or the other!!!!

140

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 12/08/2007 16:30:01

Am2
Continuing the thread from support grows for S.N.P. as commenting in that forum has now closed. You say that Londoners are not pampered, you bet your bottom dollar they are, they are the subsidy junkies of the U.K., subsidised in every government department and payed for nationally in other words "listen to me" they are the sleekitist nation on this earth (sly to you) this part is easily proved, the mafia once in the late sixties said of them "We are only amateurs compared to them Bet you still dont get the message

141

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 16:33:18

160. Ex-pat observer
I work for a multinational based in the US.
All of our European transactions even in the UK are conducted in euros.

Scotland's economomy is integrated with the world.
Do you somehow imagine that Scotland becomes independent, next day everyone upsticks to their new head office on the other side of the border?

'Subject to exchange rate charges', You've got to be kidding?

My employer has a dwindling department just to handle money markets.
Taking up valuable resources and manpower to keep up with the exchange rates between sterling and the trading currencies of our markets.

Raw materials bought in from other economic regions paid for in various currencies with varying levels of value against each other, with finished goods sold in euros or whatever happens to be the trading currency in that market.

Our booming financial services sector, as with any modern business, depends on how well we service customers not where our computer terminals happen to be, or what the currency is at that physical location.

The world has moved on, its not where you do it, or what you do it with, but how you do it that gets results.

There is no sentiment in Business.
I remember the 'I'm backing Britain, Buy British' campaigns of the 70's.
Customers couldn't care less then, even less now.

142

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 16:36:02

165 -my statements were not false. Gordon Brown is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. He was directly elected by his Scottish constituents. Without their votes he would not be Prime Minister. These are facts. Equally it is a fact that Alistair Darling is a Scot, he was elected by Scottish people and he is the UK's finance minister. Therefore the two highest positions of office open to elected representatives in the United Kingdom are held by Scots, representing Scottish constituencies. As a consequence, to say that the Scots do not have a voice in Europe is ludicrous and demonstrably untrue. What would be true is to say that an independent Scotland does not have a voice in Europe. But then neither does an independent Wales, England, Catalonia, Bavaria, Lombardy etc etc etc

143

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 16:40:11

#154. The spook in Leith: I know what you mean, It took my dad years to convince his parents that Scottish independce was achivable. (They belived the unionist lies)

I supose it took what was going on at Holyrood to show them the light

144

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 16:42:29

162. Media 1, cape town
Check this link from the BBC to see what London makes of the new First Minister of Scotland.

They reckon even the Tories are impressed.
""...Alan Cochrane of the Daily Telegraph, has declared that "Alex Salmond is walking on water"...""

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6942374.stm

145

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 16:43:03

169 - with all due respect, most Scots are not employed by multinatonal companies. They are employed either by the UK government or by SMEs that are integrated into the UK economy and do their business in pounds sterling.

The financial services community in Scotland prospers because it sells items such as pensions, investment funds and insurance to English customers paying in pounds. If Scotland were to join the Euro, the financial services community would either have to charge its English customers more to cover exchange rate charges, or it would have to reduce its margins. Either option is unattractive and could quite easily see many relocate south of the border, at least as far as their retail operations - ie, the ones that employ most Scots - are concerned. You are right, of course, in the sense that Scottish Widows, for example, could quite easily keep its HQ in Scotland and move its retail operation to, say, Newcastle. It would not harm its business one bit, but it could see quite a few Scots lose their jobs.

146

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 16:48:24

174. AM2, Glasgow
No he is a puddin with bother articulating his ideas.
He does have an honest gripe about Scottish jobs being sold down the river to support jobs in English Tory marginals however. Rosyth/Devonport etc..

He is no more representative of Scottish civil nationalism than you are of the British National Party, or Media 1 is representitive of MENSA.

147

Edward,

12/08/2007 16:49:40

#162
Why do you harp on about Alex Salmond 'shouted loud' about the 6 o'clock news???
Your such a completely ignorant fool!
Alex Salmond has NEVER repeat NEVER shouted, demanded, or what ever crappy word you can dream up about the 6 o'clock news. Its been the media, especially this rag of a paper thats concocted this. If you ever actually did something sencable and actually taken the time to read Alex Salmonds speech, you will actually find that its all about Broadcasting in general in Scotland, he only mentions th 6 oclock news as an example of how badly Scotland is represented . The Scottish Six has been debated ever since 1998 and th setting up of a devolved parliament in Scotland.
The Scotish broadcast media are actually quite keen for a Scottish Six, the BBC in Scotland is keen to have it, so much so, that they actually did a pilot program in 2004, which has just been reported by Iain McWhirter in todays Sunday Herald
So suggest that you read the piece.
http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.1612...

148

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 16:52:55

177 - My original statement was correct.

If Brown and Darling's Scottish constituents do not think the are representing their interests, they can vote them out of office. Up to now, they have not. Therefore, they must believe their interests are being represented, both in Westminster and in Europe. In other words, they must believe that their Scottish interests are being represented by their Scottish representatives.

149

Hello,

UK 12/08/2007 17:00:41

#170 you talk about Brown and Darling being Scottish in the UK Government. Just remind me where was Tony Blair born and where did he spend a lot of his childhood? He's Scots born.

150

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 17:01:30

#166. Ex-pat observer: Still you cannae predict the future!!!!!

151

morris,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 17:04:42

18
What happens is Scotland gets the government she elects of course,and if its composed of the bunch of Labour numpties we currently send to Holyrood and Westminster then I agree we could potentially face problems, depending upon how incompetent they are.
The problem with your argument is you favour voting these people into power to govern,when according to you they couldnt govern Scotland.
The only rational explanation for that is Scotland could govern herself,but only if we dont do what you want!

152

morris,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 17:40:22

145

Scotlands inclusion in the EU is dependent upon satisfactory terms being offered to us,and the approval or otherwise of our population.This is by no means a certainty, but the SNP presumes that since we are already a member of The UK (all of which retains membership unless declaring otherwise),then comparable terms seem probable.

What Scotland gets is what Scotland decides. The position of the SNP is no more than that,and an independent nation can be anything it wants from a member of the EU to a republic to any other possibility.Since NOBODY knows what the future holds its impossible to say anything with any certainty. First we must have a car before we can paint her,and the SNP is more likely to bring that about if it offers some kind of model, but its nothing more than intention,and could and possibly will change depending upon what happens.

153

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 17:44:18

187 - And presumably he believes that he is also representing his Scottish constituents' interests. Certainly, if they did not think he was, they would not elect him. Of course he is the PM of the UK, but he is a PM who represents Scottish people. There is no getting round it. It may just be that he and his constituents believe that Scotland's interests are best served by the UK. You may disagree, but that - again - is something completely different.

154

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 17:45:13

187 Methalions,
Relax man, come the general election Brown may well loose his seat to the SNP,
then you can bring up these posts again.
The guy's thick in the heid he'll never see what you mean, until brown loose's

155

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 17:47:17

184 - That's absolutely true. Ad neither can you. What we can both do is look at the past and look at the present and try to work out what might happen. And the way I see it is if Scotland currently exports three times as much to the rest of the UK as it does to the whole of the rest of the world, then the UK (and, more specifically, England) will continue to be Scotland's biggest trading partner, by far.

156

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 17:48:52

193 - Fine by me. I just took umbrage at being accused of making false statements. If I did not explain myself clearly then I apologise, but I hope you accept my purpose was not to mislead.

157

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 17:49:22

191

Hallo pehman. You tell me please what mean "brown loose's"?

158

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 17:50:46

Go on pehman - answer 198 and get the 200

159

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 17:51:25

Oops sorry, my motives were well-intentioned!

160

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 17:54:33

200

Ken S, no understand "get the 200" . you tell me. Yes?

161

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 17:55:28

203

Hey Methaloins you how you say clever buger yes?

162

European Scot,

12/08/2007 17:55:45

163 Ken S,

Well as for your "colonials doing your dirty work for you...."

We certainly have gained so much experience in this field, more than enough to help put us in our present position of approaching independence.
However we will do all we can to help you establish your independence with your own parliament.
There's a building in Westminster, it would suit you perfectly. It's got plenty of history, might need a bit of modernising. If you need to expand there's more accommodation available nearby, but you'll have to move the bunch of old fogeys currently sleeping there. Lord knows what they do in there.!
We could further help with your efforts for independence. What if we give you Gordon on a permanent basis ? He comes complete with a Union flag and matching underwear. That thought alone could help accelerate movement towards an independent England.

Now you should go tuck in to a double helping of that 'Salmond a l'Ecosse' washed down with a really good English Whine !
But try not to think about Gordie in his Union boxers !

163

morris,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 17:59:30

162

He gets to blame his lack of power for his failure to make a difference, you say.
In fact there is already a difference including in the opinion polls,but he clearly could not possibly achieve anythingvery much on matters which have not been devolved ,or at best having only finances which are controlled by Westminster, and the cooperation of at least one party, or he is defeated.
If you wish to make a logical defence of the Union.by all means do so,but all you achieve here is confirm your support for the retention of the Union,and critcicise an executive who operate under the devolved arrangements which you and the Scots electorate imposed upon them.
You achieve nothing other than confirm that you support the UK,but have no idea why to offer.

I think the revelation that the SNP leader wants to be PM of an independent nation will hardly come as surprise to anybody including the village idiot.

164

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 17:59:57

Methalions, I am in Europe. In the English midlands to be exact!

It's true that exact figures re: exports are hard to gauge but stats I saw from the Scottish government website estimated over £30 billion worth of exports to the rest of the UK and around £11 billion to the rest of the world. One of the reasons why the stats are hard to come by is that really there is just a UK economy, not a Scottish one or an English one (although different parts of the UK economy behave in different ways). This shows just how integrated we are, I would argue, and is a major reason why Scottish adoption of the Euro would be a hugely counter-productive while England retained the pound - which is the point I have been trying to make to livilion.

I would go further and argue that given this level of integration, it would be a huge risk for Scotland to break away from the rest of the UK politically as we would lose what influence we currently have in shaping the UK's economic development - ie, we would never again have a Scottish PM or Chancellor in charge of our biggest trading partner and accountable to Scottish electors ;-)

165

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 18:02:49

you guys heavy talk today. What weather like im Schottland today you tell me please.

166

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 18:03:59

203 - I have seen basically the same. Yours, however, do not include the rest of the UK. Here's a link to the stats I saw:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/11/2485808/5...

167

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 18:05:58

210

Ex-pat observer I no click on link yet. Dodgy site yes? Polizei?

168

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 12/08/2007 18:07:56

#174 AM2
Its amazing how the truth hurts!!!! Incidentally everything I stated is fact!!!! check it out if you like the statement about the mafia is true the godfather who stated it had connections with the Kennedy's, M.Monroe, Sinatra, its factual.
#182
I see your slagging people now, why don't you quit!!!! truth is Scotland will break away from the U.K. and the divorce settlement will be something else + Scotland and England will have to apply to join the E.U. as at present they both are only in under the U.K. auspices If I am as you say am S.NP. inclined and wish for Independence, well I'm proud of it and you and your ilk wont bloody well change that.- period O.K!!!!

169

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 18:09:46

212

Methalions you good man. you know who I are. I come stay with you? Pick berries.

170

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 18:09:54

195 Methalions, No where is it

Ken S, sorry ken, I missed again. F IN broadband

171

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 18:10:18

#192. Methalions: AYE, I was shut out about an hour ago & only now can I get back in think there was a malfunction some where.

Best Check the poll to make sure no ones been tincering with it!!!!

172

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 18:10:53

215

pehman I ask you what peh?

173

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 18:11:56

216

Eve, no check poll. Polls good people hard work have good faith

174

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 18:12:28

188. morris, Edinburgh
Not that old chestnut again?
You do not appear to understand the basis upon which the UK was founded and its place in international law.

The Treaty of Union is to all intents and purposes an agreement between two sovereign nations, Scotland and England to pool their respective sovereignties for the purposes of mutual trade and defence.

If for whatever reason either party decides to revoke this international agreement then all treaties, charters and agreements entered into during the period of their pooled sovereignty such as the Geneva Convention the UN Charter on Human Rights etc remain binding upon the signatory powers making up the United Kingdoms of Great Britain.

As such, it's one out the lot out.

Should Scotland be expelled from the EU for revoking the Treaty of Union then there would be no alternative but to also expell England too.

That just ain't gonna happen, not while there's oil and gas in the North Sea for a start, and Putin is playing fast and loose with energy supplies from Russia.

175

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 18:14:47

219. Alec Doted, Ukraine
This gag was not amusing when you started it.

It is only tiresome now.

176

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 18:16:50

217. Anec Dotal, Ukraine
Yin mutton peh weyaninginanaw

177

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 18:16:51

223

livilion you dodgy geezer. I know.

178

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 18:17:30

208 Ex Pat, This from your post;-

shaping the UK's economic development - ie, we would never again have a Scottish PM or Chancellor in charge of our biggest trading partner and accountable to Scottish electors ;-)

And you think that will sway us ???

179

Anec Dotal,

Ukraine 12/08/2007 18:18:02

224

you lose me livilion you lose me. No englis language yes?

180

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 18:18:18

226 Cheers, back soon

181

Wallace1297,

12/08/2007 18:26:10

I don’t believe that a referendum is necessary. The union is illegal and immoral besides there was never a referendum to ask us if we wanted subjugation in the first place.

Salmond should declare independence immediately and any unionists who try to sabotage the process should be arrested and have their assets seized.

182

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 18:28:58

#232 Wallace

Cannae wait to live in your twisted vision of 'freeeeedom'

183

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 18:29:46

#232. Wallace1297: If only it was that easy!!!!!

BUT it's 10x's more complicated than that!!!!

184

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 12/08/2007 18:30:23

#203
Brilliant piece of statistics Methalions that should put a lot of smart arses in their place. Magic. they are the real taxpayers into the bargain. in other words the taxpayers who make things with their hands and trade them with the world. The millions of civil servants in London don't earn a penny for Britain they are takers so why do we allow them to get away with it. Surely the unionists in Scotland can now see that they are taking the p*** out of us in Scotland.

185

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 18:30:56

#233. Draco Was a Wimp: Can you no see it's a joke!!!!!!!!!

Everyone knows thats imposible!!!!!!

186

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 18:32:02

227 - I don't know, but I think it is an important point. Given that Sctland is so tied to England economically, it helps to have political influence over England. So, for example, it helps to have the possibility of Scots being in charge of the major offices of the UK state as they will tend to see the bigger picture, as opposed to an English MP representing an English constituency in the south-east of England. Failing that, it is important to have Scottish voices heard when decisions are being made.

Whether Scotland is independent or not, we will remain inextricably linked to England. I think it is in Scotland's interests to have as much input into the policies and strategies of our biggest trading partner as possible. We have that at the moment, we would lose it with independence.

187

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 18:34:47

Methalions,
job done, now at 84% for Independence

188

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 18:34:54

235 - read very carefully: Methalions' stats exclude Scottish exports to the rest of the UK. These are 200% to 300% greater than Scottish exports to the whole of the rest of the world. In other words, Scotland exports far more to England tan it does to the USA, the EU, China, Japan and anywhere else you can think of combined. And that is not going to change.

189

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 18:37:23

208. Ex-pat observer

Since the early 1990s Ireland has quadrupled its volume of exports to the EU.
If we compare the destination of Ireland’s and Scotland’s exports we can identify one of the reasons why the Scottish economy has been underperforming so consistently over the last decade.

According to the Executive, in 2004 63 per cent of Scotland’s exports were to England, 17 per cent to the EU, 6.5 per cent to the US and 13.5 per cent to the rest of the world.

Ireland by contrast, in 2005, supplied 46 per cent of its exports to the EU, 19 per cent to the US, 17 per cent to the UK and 18 per cent to the rest of the world.

Impressive as Ireland’s export performance has been it’s also worth noting that in 2005 Finland provided 57 per cent of its exports to the EU, Sweden 70 per cent and Norway 79 per cent.
Future economic historians in Scotland, perhaps mindful of Brown’s warning in his speeches about the economic consequences of Scottish independence, may not appreciate the irony of the relative export performance that saw Ireland, in 2005, earn more from its annual exports to the UK (€15.4 billion) than Scotland, in 2004, earned from its annual exports to the entire EU (£8.8 billion).

One of the long-standing structural problems in the Scottish economy has been its narrow export-orientation.

Scotland has been over-reliant on the relatively small UK market in a period when European enlargement, in all its forms since 1973, should have provided opportunities for Scotland to significantly increase its exports to the EU.

Even the Executive acknowledges that, “The strength of the economic linkages between Scotland and the rest of the UK implies that the performance of the wider UK economy bears significantly on the performance of the Scottish economy.”

We should be asking:
How can we adopt fiscal and monetary policies that are more closely correlated to the real economy in Scotland?

Second, ho

190

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 18:40:25

#236 Eve

I hope you're right. Unfortunately there are so many frothing Nats on the 'Zoomer' wing of the Party on here that sometimes it's difficult to tell.

191

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 18:40:27

#206. European Scot
"..What if we give you Gordon on a permanent basis ?.."

No. no, ES, you're not paying attention. I said do our dirty work for us; not send yours to us.


Now, if we could discuss fees for the hire of Alex Salmond as a constitutional consultant, that would be more the thing

192

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 18:45:06

#s 215 & 216

I was also getting "unobtainable" on Scotsman site earlier (and this morning).

Problems? or maybe just maintenance periods.

193

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 12/08/2007 18:48:58

What time is the next tram?

194

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 18:54:33

245. AM2, Glasgow
Mebbe only the ones that bleed 10s of £billions from the economy and then bleet on about whingeing Jocks with their begging bowls constantly out.

195

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 18:54:37

237 Ex Pat, From your post,

Whether Scotland is independent or not, we will remain inextricably linked to England. I think it is in Scotland's interests to have as much input into the policies and strategies of our biggest trading partner as possible. We have that at the moment, we would lose it with independence.

Lose what with Independence, if England is buying Scottish goods and products at the moment, Then they are doing it because it is the best or the cheapest, And not for any philanthropic reason you arse

196

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 18:56:15

240 -So, as I was saying, England is by far Scotland's biggest trading partner. Which makes adoption of the Euro while England retains the pound something that would have a massive adverse effect on the Scottish economy and, more importantly, on the lives of many millions of Scots.

Ireland has done fantastically well over the last 15 years, but it took Ireland 60 years to even begin to reap the rewards of independence from an economic standpoint. That's two or three generations.

And what are your answers to the questions that Adamson raises, bearing in mind just how different Scotland's economy is to those of Ireland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway. Do you favour the low tax, low public investment approach of the Irish, or the high tax, high investment strategy of the Scandinavians?

197

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 12/08/2007 18:57:52

Did I say Tram?

198

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 12/08/2007 18:58:11

Bingo w250

199

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 18:58:16

246. AM2, Glasgow
No they should be made to repent their sins by putting in a tour with our boys in Basra or Helmund.

That'll give them a fresh perspective of what the rest of the world thinks of 'great' Britain.

200

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 18:58:49

Ex Pat observer,

Why do the supermarkets buy their milk in from France, because it's cheaper

This is the modern world, if you can get quality quantity and price better anywhere else , then you go

201

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 19:01:20

248 - You are absolutely right, though I don't see the need for the insult. And Scottish goods are comparatively cheap because they come from the same country - no exchange rates to worry about, no extra import bureaucracy, no national security issues and so on.

202

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 19:03:28

Will there be head shavings on High Streets across the new 'Free' Scotland as well? Or will those who disagree with you be forgiven but marked down as second class Scots forever? UnterShotten perhaps?

203

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 19:04:16

228. Anec Dotal, Ukraine
".. you lose me.."

If only!

Now why don't you
Ja widdaju ty nasz osel. Teper ty majesz bil'sze. Diakuju!

204

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 12/08/2007 19:04:26

Talking about religion and politics reminds me that when I think of wee eck I think about rasputin!

205

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 19:15:08

#249. Ex-pat observer

Thankyou, you make my point for me.
Eire was the sick man of Europe up until 1973.
From independence and before, up until this point the Irish had put all (95%) of their economic eggs into the English basket.

Of course their biggest customer had a vested interest in teaching them that seperation from the Motherland was economic folly and placed embargos on the Irish to enforce the point.

When the opportunity to enter the EEC arose the Irish grasped it with both hands, Europe provided pump priming for their economy, mostly to rebuild their economic infrastructure, and the Irish did the rest themselves.

Within the next few years Eire will overtake the Scottish economy which when Brent Crude first came ashore was less than 50% that of the Scots.

That's the difference between hanging onto England's apron strings and getting out and doing it for ourselves.


We cut our cloth to fit Scotland's needs, but first priority would be improving Scotland's attractiveness for businesses to grow and thrive.

Businesses all over the UK not just Scotland are complaining about the punitive fiscal regime imposed from London, threatening to take their jobs out of the UK altogether.

That's the most obvious place to start.

206

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 19:17:29

256 Ex Pat,

yes your right sorry for the insult it was uncalled for and I add unlike me again sorry.

However as I stated the supermarkets are buying milk in France to sell here, because its cheaper -including the exchange rate

207

European Scot,

12/08/2007 19:20:33

242 Ken S.

Curses, you clearly know a good thing when you see one.
So the English accent and the Britishness thing didn't work after all.

Trouble is we need wee Eck for a few more years, so for the moment it's 'money wouldn't buy.'

You're just going to have to figure this one out for yourselves !

208

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 19:21:35

261 AM2, your post,

LOL. Proven unionists to sew yellow badges to their outer garments and defer in all matters to the nationalist Übermenschen! ;-)

you realise ofcourse what you have done here constitutes that which you say you do not

209

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 19:30:00

260. AM2, Glasgow

Yes of course, the media is constantly reminding us of well thought of the Breetish are in the middle east, in Europe the French, Italians, the Spanish, the Germans, fall over themselves to congratulate us on our moderating influence through our special relationship with Uncle Sam.
The Americans are always grateful to have a partner who won't ask akward questions and readily provide dead soldiers to lend legitimacy to their foreign policy force projection opportunities.

In Afghanistan and Pakistan, Great Britain is a byword for doing the decent thing, playing up and playing the game.

The Indian sub continent is forever gratefull to Britain for bringing them out of the dark ages and primitive culture and making them part of the Empire.

I could go on but you'll get the drift.
Wha's like us ? damn few and they're a' deid.

btw Have you read the FIFA story about Englands 2018 World Cup bid?
More of the same.

210

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 19:32:04

#262 Livilion

Again, you're being somewhat disingenuous when it comes to Irish economic success, which is undoubted. You, and other nationalists, neglect to mention the billions of pounds over the years from the EU. And the fact that, very sensibly, they finally came to their senses and dropped the socialist, state-directed economics they had followed since Independence.

211

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 19:32:48

266 am2,
Oh you who like to try and claim the high moral ground. who say's he does not lower himself HA

212

Craig Cockburn,

Scotland 12/08/2007 19:37:37

The unionists arguing against independence remind me of the lost cause no-no voters in September 1997. Political parties caught up in their own rhetoric rather than willing to think hard about what might be best for their country. Even Michael Forsyth (remember him) is now saying the Tories are making a huge mistake by failing to support the independence referendum. This country needs a sensible, mature and open debate preferably free from the nanny state Labour arguments which seem to support every other country's right to independence but not Scotland's.

213

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 19:41:18

268. Draco Was a Wimp
Excuse me, permit me to rebutt.

One of the popular myths about Ireland’s remarkable economic growth since the 1990s is that much of it is attributable to EU subsidies.

If this were true, Ireland really would have performed an economic ‘miracle’ in this period!
As the Economist put it, in a survey of the Irish economy in October 2004:
“"..The most authoritative studies suggest that EU subsidies may have added around 0.5 per cent a year to Ireland’s growth during the 1990s – useful but modest in the context of average growth of 6.9 per cent.

It’s not difficult to identify some of the main reasons for Ireland’s improved performance in the last ten years, they include:
an impressive increase in Irish exports;
sustained production led growth;
the EU’s single market and single currency;
and the huge increase in employment.,""

Now can you spot how they've done things a wee bitty different to us on this side of the water?

214

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 19:46:41

262 - Ireland's economy, even before independence, was never like Scotland's. Ireland was predominantly a rural country, Scotland was industrial. Also, Ireland has never had the public sector Scotland now has and does not spend so much on pensions and other welfare payments or on its health service. If an independent Scotland cut business tax rates, it would have to raise them elsewhere or there would have to be cuts in public spending, which would affect jobs, the health service and/or welfare paymets. All of this would be exacerbated if an independent Scotland were to do this while, at the same, joining the Euro - so making access to our most important market more difficult.

I am not saying it cannot be done. I am saying that the true costs of doing it should be made plain. In the same way, if an independent Scotland were to go the Scandinavian route, personal and business tax rates would go up significantly. Again, this should be made plain.

The question is then, what do we gain from so much pain and when do the advantages begin to accrue? As I said, it took Ireland - with its completely different economic model and far lower state-dependent culture - 60 years to turn the corner. Do you think it is reasonable to ask Scots to wait for the same amount of time and just how much more will their grandchildren end up with than they would have had with Scotland as part of the UK?

It is up to nationalists to show how independence would benefit Scotland, not just say look at other small countries and see how successful they are.

215

Publius,

Girvan for the weekend 12/08/2007 19:49:44

Discussion about Ireland's economic success is interesting. Some factors overlooked are (1) better education system than Scotland with fewer illiterate and enumerate school leavers; (2) more punitive social security system - lower benefits and very difficult to throw a sickie; (3) enthusiasm for capitalism as opposed to Scotland's semi-socialism: Ireland has half a socialist party but Scotland has two - Labour and SNP. Unless we embrace Ireland's political culture we are unlikely to emulate Ireland's economic success in or out of the UK, in or out of the EU.

216

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 19:54:22

OK, I'll not argue over the importance of EU subsidy (a lot from the bad old UK) to giving the moribund Irish economy a good boost. But what about the change of economic direction? That was nothing to do with the UK or having been part of the UK. Yes, when the Irish economy was closer to ours, it was sluggish. But for decades after WW2, so was ours! Although you'll no doubt not admit it, changes in the UK economy since the '80s have been marked. Who's to say the Irish economy wouldn't have improved along with ours, were it still closely bound?

217

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 19:54:38

272 - so what you are proposing livilion is that Scotland compete with Ireland for inward investment from companies in countries such as the US based on zero or single figure business taxes. How does Scotland then make up the short fall necessary to maintain spending on the NHS, education, pensions and other types of welfare?

218

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 19:55:38

#275. The spook in Leith,

OK, have a go at Nats but leave Elaine C Smith alone, sunshine.
Great serious & comedy actress and singer!!

219

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 19:58:43

278 - I think that 277 has a point. The political culture in Ireland is very different to Scotland's. In addition, Ireland never spent what Scotland spends on things such as welfare, health and public sector jobs. Basically, Ireland can afford to have low business tax rates because overall levels of state spending are far lower there than in Scotland.

There is nothing to stop an independent Scotland being a low tax country, but natonalists should point out the full implications of being one, along with what would happen should such moves be accompanies by a switch to the Euro. In addition, they shoud also explain how, in the long term, such moves will leave Scotland better off than had we stayed in the UK.

220

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 20:00:58

#272 Livilion

OK, we'll not argue over the imporatnce of huge EU subsidies in helping develop a previously moribund Irish economy. But what about a change in economic direction? The Irish economy was linked closely to the UK one for decades, at a time when ours wasn't exactly firing on all cylinders. Although you may argue, since the fundamental changes of the 80s the UK economy has come on reasonably well. Who's to say that the Irish economy, were it still linked to ours, wouldn't have benefited from the changes as well. We can't safely say this all the Independence dividend.

221

jim b,

stirling 12/08/2007 20:04:15

If we wish to grow as a country,we need to act as a country and be able to make our own laws .Its supposed to be a parliment

222

IainGlasgow,

12/08/2007 20:04:57

#279

Overall economic growth would offset that.

It would also mean that in order to cope with the staffing demands created by business growth, we would need to force the lazy trash who spend all day watching sky tv, sitting in the pub or hanging around street corners with their chav mates all day to enter the job market.

Interestingly a side-effect of the smoking ban has been that we can now all see how many people waste their lives away in the pub from opening time onwards because they're all congregated outside, fag in hand as of 11.30 a.m.

223

morris,

Edinburgh 12/08/2007 20:09:28

220

On the contrary,I am perfectly aware of it and concur? IM not sure what prompted this though?
What are you replying to exactly?

224

IainGlasgow,

12/08/2007 20:12:44

#274

The point is though it would represent a TENTH of Scottish GDP

225

IainGlasgow,

12/08/2007 20:15:10

Welcome to Scotland

The only place in the world where nationhood is based on a balance sheet

226

hill_billy,

12/08/2007 20:19:08

288 There's plenty worse than a low OECD ranking for Ireland

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0810/houses.html

The property market has been in serious trouble in Ireland this year and economic growth is slowing. Its not all sweetness and light there, they had a good run from a low level but times might be getting harder

227

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 20:19:49

286 - would it? How do you know? Over how long a period would this occur? A week, a month, a year, a decade? How would public spending be maintained in the meantime? How much more better off would Scotland be following such an economic model?

228

Dennis,

North Isles 12/08/2007 20:25:11

276 & 277

At last some sense of perspective being given to the mindless SNP mantra about how a newly independent Scotland - or half-baked independence if you take the SNP plan for it - being another Norway or Ireland. If those spouting that rubbish were selling you pensions you could sue.

An SNP type 'Scotland in Europe' would be more like Estonia, Latvia and Slovenia as new boys in Europe, rather than another Ireland or Denmark !! As for having an economy as strong as Norway - dream on - at least 30 years too late for that.

The SNP zealots on this board, and beyond, persist in putting forward an argument for independence based on 99% emotion and 1% trusting to luck.

The first 100 days of the SNP has been headlined by flags and TV (oh!- and the Edinburgh trams). What's the SNP's plan for getting down to some real work for Scotland once the've exhausted the easy - lets bash the UK - targets? Not a lot - I would suspect!

229

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 20:26:09

298 - Not all nations have independence. Many do very well as part of larger states: just ask the Catalans and the Bavarians.

230

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 12/08/2007 20:29:44

#245 AM2
Ill have to educate you in a subject that you don't like. FACT 1.- Scotland doesn't owe one iota to England. FACT 2.- Prior to the discovery of Scottish!!! Oil Britain and I include Scotland borrowed from the International Monetary fund (I.M.F.) for many years FACT 3.- Scotland discovers oil. FACT 4.- England takes complete control of Scotland's oil (there is no question it is not Englands oil) FACT 5.- England then starts building a pipeline all the way to London England I know because I did work on it and also at that time the Scotish Liberation Army blew up the pipe with explosives. Scottish men were jailed for that (someday they may be exhonerated) FACT 6.- The first oil from Scotish oil oilfields went straight down that pipe pumped all the way to, can you guess? yeah you are right,it was an non oil producer called, yes, London, sleekit London. FACT 7.- Britain or rather England did not need the I.M.F. anymore they had Scotlands oil and how!!!! London and the south east have prospered since then. FACT 8.- Glasgow was at that time the second city in Britain it was second to none, and had all manner of industry from the worlds best locomotive works, ship building, textiles, second to none engineering firms (the fact is the English bought these firms with our oil money then learned the know how ,then quickly took the work to English cities, and closed them down in Scotland these are not just facts but very bitter history) Glasgow wanted to extend their boundarys, but England said no way( London that is) because in reallity Glasgow according to London was getting to big (for its boots) Look at London and all its hypocrytes now, I can write millions of words which are truely facts ,can the same be said for the English (they are the ones who have benefited from Scotland in many more ways than one) Bye the way AM2 Dont spout to me its nothing to do wih the Londoners, because it has everything to do with them, they are living like lords on money that

231

The Strategist,

12/08/2007 20:30:02

If the UK had joined the Euro then interest rates here would be almost half what they are in the UK.

However, this would have displeased the City so the Gordon Brown was told not to do it.

With regard to the ongoing discussion over why Irish growth has been so spectacular it's also important to remember Eire has a very vibrant and extremely active venture capital industry. At the last count I think there were around thirty or forty of them. Some small, some large but all intent on growing Eire's economy and importantly they also work in collaboration with Irish Govt, industry and other financial institutions.

In this sense Eire is very similar to Norway. Difficult to describe because it's not something we're used to to in Scotland but it resembles a sort of shared national vision. No such thing exists here of course.

232

European Scot,

12/08/2007 20:33:06

303 Ex-pat observer

Catalunya( Catalonia ) and Bavaria nations ? That's a new one.
Do Spain and Germany know about this ?

233

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 20:40:42

#293. IainGlasgow: Awh it's a case of: Hasit ye back indepedence, that is!!!

234

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 20:43:14

#301. AM2: You suprise me, stoping to an ultemt low there are ye no!!!!

235

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 20:46:31

#305. Methalions: I know where!!!!!!

Give you a clue it's a new town!!!!!!!

Heres another this month it will be celabrating it's 60th year of being a town!!!!!

236

Ex-pat observer,

12/08/2007 20:50:39

311 - And they are guesswork precisely because the Scottish and English economies are so tightly integrated. However they are not figures plucked straight out of the air and if even close they show that Scotand's trade with the rest of the UK dwarfs its trade with whole of the rest of the world. The fact is that no-one serusly doubts that the UK is Scotland's biggets trading partner by far.

303 - During the many years I lived in Catalunya the people and their government did indeed describe it as a nation. If you go to the Generalitat's website you will see that it refers to Catalunya as a country. As for Bavaria, it was an independent entity as recently as 150 years ago.

237

Ken S.,

England 12/08/2007 20:59:24

#303. Ex-pat observer
".. Not all nations have independence. Many do very well as part of larger states: just ask the Catalans and the Bavarians."

Bavaria is t'other way round - an independent State that opted to federate with others to become a larger one.
A fine precedent. Scots wishing to join up with my country, please sign here:
.........................................................................
.........................................................................

238

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 12/08/2007 21:02:19

#308 AM2.
SO AM I. YE MUST HAVE GOT THE POINT THEN. A WIZNAE TELLIN ANY LIES THE WIZ A

239

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 12/08/2007 21:03:52

I am wary of reading too much into one individual poll - I suspect that this one is a rogue in that it over-estimates support for the SNP and underestimates support for independence. For me the only poll that matters is the one at the ballot box - I just wish that the unionist parties had some balls and gave the SNP their referendum - because they would in my opinion lose it - and I suspect that many SNP members and supporters know it too.

Salmond is between a rock and a hard place as far as I can see. The problem the SNP has is that if they are successful as a Scottish executive it only makes the case for independence harder - they are showing that devolution in fact works. If he is unsuccessful then people will not blame devolution but the SNP. In my opinion the best way for the SNP to win a referendum is not leading a Scottish Executive but fighting as an opposition and genuinely winning the next election not just being the largest party.

240

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 21:04:34

#325. Ken S: Naw, never choice the union!!!!!

Why would anyone want that?

Thoughs Bavaria folkappear a wee bit odd!!!

241

hill_billy,

12/08/2007 21:09:36

317 Are you sure about that????

Average house price in Edinburgh - £293,894

http://www.home.co.uk/guides/house_prices.htm?location=Ed...

Average house price in Dublin - €434,631 or £284k (depending on your maths) and this price is falling 2% this year

http://www.finfacts.ie/biz10/irelandhouseprices.htm

Things not as bad as the SNP and too many Socts would like to make out

242

SCOTLAND IS A COUNTRY,

ALBA 12/08/2007 21:10:12

Cmon wee Eck - gie it to Broon the Balloon!

243

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 21:11:11

#329. Not A Unionist or Nationalist: Well that would only defently happen if the media was still heaviely bias.

Other than that it's hard to predict the results of an idependence referendum.

You are aware that you've just well and truely put yerself in a posstion thats screams that you support the union and NOT an undecided person on which you claim to be.

244

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 21:14:20

#333. AM2: Did ye read what I had to say when you mentioned it after I went to bed last night, so I posted it at #112.

245

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 12/08/2007 21:18:12

# 308 am2
Dont make political correctness out of these men who were jailed. they were doing something they they thought, (and they were right), they had to do, I wish I had, had the guts to do the same. They had the courage of their convictions and they, (no matter what ) are now part of the history of Scotland.

246

Ken S.,

England the Ever So Attractive 12/08/2007 21:18:35

#331. Eve

Oh...well.. if you're sure, 'cos I can't hold this special offer open indefinitely ;-)

247

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 12/08/2007 21:19:59

Wrong Eve - I want a referendum - multi-choice - so I can reject both independence and the status quo.

248

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 21:30:47

#340. Ken S.: Limied edtion offers are always a con in the end!!!!!!

Look what the union has do, left my contry with high persentage of folk that are feart of going out a earing a living. Most people can contribute to soiety in some way or another, it's time these folk got out their empowered them to become no longer scared help the community to thrive.

#342. Not A Unionist or Nationalist: Still you say yer in favour of the union, doesn't really make much defence that you want more devoled powers the fact that yer minds already made up against Scottish independece, makes you a unionist. Yer belife in extra power just make you a sensible unionist.

OK to win Back yer claim to being "Not A Unionist or Nationalist" answer this question honistly:

Are you completly closed of to their being an independent Scotland within the next 10-15 years or then some?

If it's just for know that ye feel we some how need the union and you think that could change then ye win it back if NO then yer claiming to be something yer no.

249

hill_billy,

12/08/2007 21:36:16

346 Well they were May's figures for Dublin, so they will be lower now! And I think i used 67p. Doesn't change the point, prices about the same.

341 I wouldn't call 30 seconds on google 'research'! Scottish house prices have been shooting up

250

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 21:36:40

#344. AM2: Thanks, Is't wan of my many talents!!!!


I know yer possible struggling with the non-tradeds high- highly skilled jobs black hole in Scotland which see many of our graduates leave to other countries such as England. Cause a lot of Jobs only existed in London with in this UK structure.

Or have graduates doing jobs which they could have done before their degrees. Which theres is a high persentage of.

Break the UK strucure and some of the posstions may come to Scotland it's worth the camble. Scotland could sucessfully bid against London for company bases if it was let by the Westminster goverment!!!!!

251

European Scot,

12/08/2007 21:37:45

319

Considering that you are a country doesn't make you one, as we are only too well aware.
Catalunya is a region of Spain with a great deal of autonomy. It shares national laws with Spain, but does have limited fiscal powers and its own civil law.
But although the Spanish government have given it 'nationality', it remains a region of Spain, subject to any further rulings regarding the Spanish Constitution.
Bavaria is a state in Germany.
Neither one at this time is a country.

252

Skatedad,

Looking skywards 12/08/2007 21:41:48

WARNING!!! Don't look at the meteorite shower tonight. Remember "The Day of the Triffids" everyone went blind and The Triffids(aka the SNP) took over the world!!! WARNING!!!

253

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 21:43:13

#349. Methalions: It's better than no change BUT quite the same as independence, would be a wee bit dissapointing in comparsion.

We'd still have Brittish (YUCK) passports and be labled that over our ture national identy, Scottish (IT MAKES ME FEEL SAD).

I long for the day that customs and goverment bodies will except that I'm Scottish and NOT Brittish (YUCK).

254

The Strategist,

12/08/2007 21:43:32

The unemployment/employment discussion is interesting but suffers from poor data. The real question is what the quality is of these new jobs.

If they're all supermarket checkout posts then this isn't adding much in the way of value to the economy. If on the other hand they're all in high value engineering posts then this adds a lot of value to the economy.

As a general point I would also say that the lack of really informed discussion on the economy is worrying. The media have to take the blame for this. How often are economic issues discussed on BBC Scotland or indeed examined beyond the headline figures by the media generally.

Personally I take the view that if a lot more people really understood the state of the Scottish economy this would have a major impact on the numbers supporting independence. They'd go up not down.

255

George Mackay,

Dundee 12/08/2007 21:45:52

Just a quick reminder that the day is nearly done and at midnight my sister Patsy's boyfriend Fraser will be up to his tricks again. He's the one who jammed the works this morning so SoS couldn't take any posts. He works for Virgin Media (ex Telewest) and he has been searching for the nest of SNP posters in Dundee. He was tipped off that it was near the football ground so he looked into it. He couldn't find a nest near Tannadice and nobody goes near Dens Park anyway. He now reckons it's in Broughty Ferry and is led by Miss M who is really a man.
Anyway you have been warned. Fraser will probably jam the Scotsman's posts at midnight when he resumes his search.

256

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 21:46:34

#354. AM2: Ye really are NASTY & CRUEL you know fine well I'm dyslexic and My sequencying can be a wee bit out at time BUT you have no right BAD mouth my written work.

Theres truth within it maybe yer to blind by the union bribes. I'm no I'm in a possition where I might have to leave my home country to find work in my degree disapin area.

So therefore I'm experencing it 1st hand and am aware of it.

257

Col Blimp III,

12/08/2007 21:49:14

#306. t.c.e.k., south lanarkshire

You admit to doing work on that fiendish pipeline.

Collaborator! You will hang side by side with AM2! :)

A good lawyer may get you of by claiming that there were invisible parenthesis surrounding "did work on it" .

258

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 12/08/2007 21:53:39

Eve - the more that the unionist parties prevaricate on a referendum the more likely it is that the SNP could win - if that is the democratic wish of the Scottish people then so be it.

259

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 21:55:02

#366. Methalions: Ha Ha, thanks ye've cheed me up after that BAD AM2 told insuled my writting style.

My post had CORRECT FACTS in IT & HE couldn't hac it so he insulted my writting style instead. Cause they have been in the papers resently!!!!

Nite Nite, Hope the weather is fine where ye are.

260

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 12/08/2007 22:01:44

PS to #369 - I genuinely feel that in the long run as we get more towards a United States of Europe the positions of the SNP and of the pro-European unionist parties will not be that far apart - there is agreement that certain areas do need to be devolved - both with the UK and within the EU itself. In fact I'd go as far to say that is often the more trivial issues that they disagree about - the general thrust of policy is usual in the same direction - you just have to look at votes in the Scottish Parliament where the SNP and Labour have been agreement more often than not.

If there were independence then I also suspect that there may be a political re-alignment of the parties as well - there are elements in Labour and the SNP who would be more comfortable with each other than some of their own party colleagues.

261

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 22:02:08

#370. AM2: Oh so ye didn't relaise yesteraday that I was reffing to high-skilled and highly skilled jobs.

I admit the P.S is a wee bit of a ramble BUT you did try and undermind my intelagence yesterday on that other thread.

I'm a wee bit emotional, looking for work anit going to great, think I'm going to have to leave the country, I don't want to do that so close to a possible referendum cause I want my vote to count cause I've been told this is coming since I was wee at primarry school.

Sorry about comment #377, was very peved.

262

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 22:07:14

#373. AM2: Ha ha, ha. Yer taking the p*%% most of the Graduate Jobs are in England, all ye need to do is go on to a graduates web site all of them have more graduate jobs in England and rarely have a hand ful in Scotland.

It is unfare that England gets more of the degree related work!!!!!! Scotland doesn't NOT get it's fare share of them!!!!

Lots of Graduates end up stacking selfs for a living because they can't find a job, don't think that happens quite so offten in England as it does in Scotland.

AM2 I can see the inequailty cause my eyes have been open to this for a very long time.

263

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 22:08:45

329 Not a uni or a Nat,
very well put sir, good observation. so how will you vote ? has the SNP done enough to show they can do more, or are you just to revert to old filthy habits

264

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 12/08/2007 22:12:49

343 AM2
The corporate property that you are twisting to suit your pro English propaganda,was built against the Scottish people's will, in fact Scottish people had absolutely no choice in the matter of Scottish oil being piped to England, which is still to this day happening. We should take take this back with interest. There was never any danger to any public persons AM2 You have definitely, absolutely, no right to talk about that aspect of Scottish oil, obviously you don't know the the pipeline was blown up really in the middle of nowhere, with no danger to anyone, Sorry the only danger was to the oil supply to London. Now with hindsight we see that the Scottish courts (did a n equivilent of a Nazi Freisler peoples court appeased the English by jailing what any other country would call heroes) AM2 don't give us your p***.

265

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 22:13:44

375 Not a uni or a nat,
you mention about the coming together or asimilation of close policies, between labour and the SNP, but with labour cutting its nose off to spite its face, you say what ? if they refuse to act for the Scottish interest you say What ?

266

Eve,

Scotland 12/08/2007 22:14:33

#375. Not A Unionist or Nationalist: I want Scottish written on my Passport as my Nationality!!!!

Big is ucly when it come to countries!!!! I read a book and it was really intersting about prossects of have loads of wee small countries, as these work more effective and effsant. BUT I geuss Scotlands wan of the few countries it would work for cause were a good size of it out side the rechat union.

Though you can't make all countries do this it's intersting and deffently makes a good cause for an independent Scotland.


BUT I'll tell ye wan think about to watch the the Westminster goverment or we could end up being part of the USA and that would make thing a lot worse.

267

European Scot,

12/08/2007 22:18:10

Still talking figures but on a lighter note.
The number of votes on the Scotsman online poll is now over 410, but the percentage figures haven't budged at all over the last couple of hundred.
Is there a question mark over computer based voting systems, or have we Nats done a Jeb Bush here ?

268

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 12/08/2007 22:20:48

Have not decided how I will vote - a lot depends on who the candidates are - being in Dundee East I have Stewart Hosie as my MP - someone who I have precious little time for - but then the same could be said for the Labour MP for Dundee West Jim McGovern!!

I did vote for Iain Luke last time - not because of party politics but because I knew him and liked his work ethic and personal politics. If I had been in Dundee West at the Scottish election I would have had a real problem as I could not stand either the Labour or the SNP candidate - again that was personal not party politics.

269

pehman,

sussex 12/08/2007 22:35:18

383 NAUOAN,
Good honest answer, thankyou. I somehow figured you were an Easterner, perhaps the ferry

270

getinnnn,

Scotland 12/08/2007 22:42:53

"distraction from the "REAL" issues" !!!!!!
To Scots; Scotland IS the "REAL" issue!

271

private.dick,

12/08/2007 22:52:14

the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland

the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland

the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland

the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland


the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland
the "REAL"issue! IS Scotland

272

Mary of Argyll,

Bathgate 12/08/2007 23:02:29

It's great to read today that the SNP are paving the way for a discussion with the Scottish electorate on the question of providing an Independence Referendum. I, for one, would repeat just one word - YES, YES, YES!

273

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 12/08/2007 23:08:11

#384 AM2
THE DETAIL YOU TALK WAS PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE BY THE MEDIA OF THE TIMES. I CAN SAY THIS WITH IMPUNITY. YOUR ENGLISH PALS HAVE BEEN BUILDING AND TRANSPORTING EXPLOSIVE MATERIALS AND USING THEM FOR CENTURIES,USUALLY AGAINST DEFENCELESS PEOPLES,DONT GIVE ME THAT PISH, WE WILL WIN IN THE END. WHERE WILL YOU BE THEN, WHOSE SIDE EH? ILL BET YOU THE WINNER. GIE US PEACE

274

getinnnn,

Scotland 12/08/2007 23:17:28

Scotland - Scotland: So good to name it twice.
I love it!
Scotland - Scotland: Let's rid ourselves of UK scandal and Labour advice!

275

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 12/08/2007 23:22:47

AM2
To use your rhetoric, you appear to know more about the then public risk of transporting dangerous materials, than the then government, and to think I took you for a mere six year old. My mistake you are only it appears to me that you are an eight year old.

276

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 23:42:58

#393. AM2, Glasgow

just poked in to have a wee look before going to my scratcher

near the 400-up I see.

Get my point made earlier about t.c.e.k,
Or do you still think you're conversing with a typical Scottish nationalism sympathiser?

Naturally asking purely rhetorically

277

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 23:44:33

392. AM2, Glasgow
I should add that pitting wits with an unarmed man does neither of you any credit.

278

livilion,

livingston 12/08/2007 23:47:56

388. Mary of Argyll, Bathgate
Are you by any perchancity related to that famous Scottish Rid Injun made famous by Bud Neil in his Lobby Dosser chronicles, Pawnee Mary O' Argyll?

279

Dennis,

North Isles 12/08/2007 23:55:44

AM2

I was talking about the value of the whole economy rather than growth rate. Though I hesitate to argue on economic figures with you - as you have a very good handle on these, usually - I would venture to suggest that it is the base rather than the growth which is the best benchmark.

Methalion

No I don't hate Scotland - quite the contrary. I was making the case that as a new candidate country for European Union membership it could hardly expect to be looked on in any other light than that of other small European countries who have recently become members.
If I really believed in independence - then I would want just that. If you SNPers are so convinced that England has set out to be master of Scotland for all these years - why do you want to exchange one master for another - without even a pause? It doesn't make any sense.
So -because I like Scotland I want to see it prosper, rather than ruined.

280

Col Blimp III,

13/08/2007 00:00:08

#396. livilion, livingston

AM2 could well be an alias for Rank Bajin.

281

livilion,

livingston 13/08/2007 00:24:07

For the earlier posts on about the economy of Eire, Norge et al, it ain't just about the money otherwise the BNP would've disbanded and the USof E would've been a fact many moons ago.

The very ones arguing against the EU and the Euro are trying to sell a bill of goods to Scotland that they won't accept for themselves.

They'd rather be penniless and skint before they let some foreign parliament decide what's best for them and their families.
'If you let them take the wet why don't you let us keep on doing it to you instead?' is hardly a positive case.

In Scotland we have no need for such extreme measures.
In global terms Scotland's inherent prosperity would put it up there in the top ranks of developed nations of the world.

Only a the most extreme British nationalist would now insist that an independent Scotland could not make it's own way in the world.

Self determination, national self esteme and identity is about so much more than economics.

Ask any Englishman, Irishman , American, Indian, Malawian, Albanian if they were told that if they let their country be subsumed into another it would be better off, would they give up their country's identity and independence, or how far would they be prepared to go to preserve their nation?

1939?

I suspect if history is anything to go by a great many would go to their graves before giving up their nation's birthright.

Why would arguably the oldest nation in christendom have nationals any less proud or defensive of their ancient nation?

The punchline: no-one has to be injured bar their pride for Scotland to regain her nationhood, we only have to make our mark on the ballot paper.

You don't know it yet but these are the good old days that our great grand children's kids will learn about in school and envy us our chance to remake our nation again.

282

John Knox,

Glasgow 13/08/2007 01:40:23

Vote Gordon Brown, he is the man who will put the Great back into Great Britain.

283

Pisipati Sriram,

Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, India 13/08/2007 03:13:07

Sir, - With pro-independence parties holding only a little over 50 seats in the 129-member Scottish Parliament, it will be an uphill task for Alex Salmond to win support for any independence referendum. He now accepts this and the best he can do is to demand and extract maximum powers from UK for the benefit of the Scottish people, consolidate his party position and strive for SNP ' cherished goal by securing a landslide support in the next round of polls to the Holyrood. Meanwhile, it is inevitable, he has to run the administration and carry the unionists along with. It is easier said than done. But then the compulsions of the situation
are such. More so when SNP's main election plank is Scottish independence. Only when a party secures absolute majority, it will be able to achieve its goals and translate its poll promises to the people. In coalition systems, it involves lot of compromises and adjustments among coalition partners.

Though hardliners in any party may not like it, in coalition governments or governments forme with thin majorities, it just is not possible t push through on major policy issues.

Alex Salmond maybe follwing this via mediacourse knowing full well the political compulsions.

Thanking you.


Yours sincerely
Pisipati Sriram,
Hyderabad,
Andhra Pradesh,
India.

284

Ex-pat observer,

13/08/2007 04:48:14

355 - So you believe that Scotland is not a country or a nation either? I am sure quite a few on here would disagree with you.

285

Ex-pat observer,

13/08/2007 05:17:26

401 - It's not just about money, of course it is not. There are major cultural and social issues to consider as well. And many of us favour the Union for these reasons too.

But let's not gloss over the economic debate. How will an independent Scotland deliver greater prosperity to Scots and how many generations of Scots will have to compromise their existing standards of living until these improvements are achieved?

No-one is saying that Scotland cannot make its own way in the world. The issue is whether it is in Scotland's best interests to do so.

286

Patrick Stevenson,

13/08/2007 07:10:41

I'm a Scots Nationalist from the States, and consequently I'm sure I don't fully understand the debate between those in favour of independence and the Unionists. From what I can tell it's really a matter of preserving a national identity, what's best for the economy, or being a nancy and submitting to English rule. Honestly - I don't understand how anyone can support being ruled by a foreign government, in London worst of all, and still call themself a Scot! Countless people died to prevent the future that has come to manifest itself, and people are actually turning their backs on that? I mean I'd be willing to lay down my life for my national identity, especially fighting against a nation that has in its history systematically raped every foreign culture they could sink their greedy fingers in. It still baffles me that there's even a debate going on about this. If it does come to the referendum the SNP's proposing and the Unionists win, I think I very well might cry.

287

Ex-pat observer,

13/08/2007 07:20:31

406 - you may be a proud Scot or proud of your Scotis roots, but you know absolutely nothing about Scottish history or contemporary British politics. Did you know, for example, that the current PM of the Uk is a Scot who represnts a Scotish constiuency?

288

morris,

Edinburgh 13/08/2007 09:39:07

407

I can see nothing in 406 which justifies that comment.
Its well possible that he knows a lot about Scots history,and bearing in mind that only those episodes which are deemed fit for inclusion are taught in Scottsh schools,then he may well know more about it than we do!He will definitly know more than many for sure.
For instance were you taught that in 1707 bribes were the flavour of the day,and troops were encamped at Carlisle ready to invade should the Edinburgh parliament reach the wrong decision.In spite of these encouragements there were still some 60 or so who voted against Union ,and this after the disaster of the Darien scheme.
Of course since we voted to join Westminster this will never be proved in the sense that they were not used.
I believe that an attempt to return in 1711 was defeated because the entire parliament voted on Scotlands future,The Scots MPS voted to leave after only four years !Again this will not be taught at any level because Westminster dare not!
There have been over twenty such attempts to bring some degree of Home Rule back to this nation,and its only the most recent one which was not an insult to Scotland and democratic accountability.
I doubt that there are very many people who know about certain events in Scots history,and it may even include a few history teachers!I have encountered one who assures me that troops at Carlisle is not correct,and a few who assure me .yes it is !What this tells me is because one person does not know something,he feels entitled to tell those who do know that they are wrong! Arrogance indeed!

One thing for sure,any dodgy dealings will have been suppressed by Westminster and we only have to look at McCrone to see that.
Am2 argues that the content of McCrone was not as one sided as the SNP clearly read it as. WHY DID WESTMINSTER suppress this report then?

If the figures being produced for Scotland prior to the creation of this report were accu

289

Gregorf,

Chicolene 13/08/2007 10:10:44

Presumably Wendy will bring a bit of 'light relief' to the parliament.

She is more annoying than an ulcer but does have great lips. A blatant attempt to swoo the young male voters.

290

thomas,

midlothian 13/08/2007 12:39:02

409 gregorf.
a factual estimation of wendys value to the parliament. every now and then a bit of light-hearted banter brings much needed relief. other than that what can she do?

291

Pinelands,

Cape town 13/08/2007 13:28:57

LIVILION./Methalion

Could I just butt in here. No you have more to say. Okay.

292

The La Gomera Ashley Nicole Hilton Fan Club,

13/08/2007 14:45:24

Dogs Parts.

All of it.

Its all nonsense.

293

MichScot,

USA 13/08/2007 15:26:40

GC must be partying.

294

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 13/08/2007 16:14:20

#367
No chance of of being a collaborator.
The b******* didn't tell us what the steelwork was for.
So ill not get a shot on your swing, so there!

295

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 13/08/2007 16:17:43

#392 AM2
Am no blind.

296

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 13/08/2007 18:00:12

The English are the most hated nation:- source Various newspapers only last week.
You will never wind me up.
For somebody whose hatred of the Scottish blatantly shows, you take the biscuit. am no as blind as you open your eyes.

297

Barry Donald Scarfe,

13/08/2007 18:17:25

Re: 401. I hope you are aware that the SNP has a very flexible definition of who is Scottish and who isn't. They have a civic definition which is kind of strange because that is what they complain being British is about.


Also, they don't actually want self-determination. They want to join a BIGGER UNION called the EU so that makes Alex Salmond and the SNP EU Unionists.

298

Jigs/reels,

Canada 13/08/2007 21:52:51

I think Alex Salmond sees himself as 'grandiose and autocratic' Look in the mirror Alex you are just a small cog in a big wheel - deal with the present problems and forget about separation - it will not work! All of you should stop talking about 'hating the English' Can't believe what I read here sometimes. Infantile!

299

siusaidh,

14/08/2007 09:25:55

*421
It's not about hating the English, as you put it, but about Scotland being able to govern itself.
Why wouldn't it work?
Why put scottish people down?
We've been robbed by London governments for far to many years and still told, that we can't survive without being part of the London government.
It's not about hate, but about restoring pride back to the scottish people.
We can do it.....

300

Tam O'Banter,

Embra 15/08/2007 18:58:23

Trust the Herald to get it completely wrong - wishful thinking methinks.

301

,

16/08/2007 15:35:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
302

MUMFI,

17/08/2007 20:18:09

"It’s also not good enough to say that since the SNP took 1/3 of the vote, that 2/3 therefore oppose independence"

Actually (and you wouldn't think this going by the media coverage) in the recent elections if you take each Parties view on the future of Scotland as it actually was:

32.93% (or 37.2% at list level) voted for a referendum on Independence - the Scottish meedja have of course forgotten that the Greens, the SSP and Solidarity also stood on a platform of offering a referendum.

32.15% (29.16%) for no change to the current devolved set up - Labour's offered position.

16.6% (13.91%) for a vague idea of more powers for the Parliament (the Tories never did list what these would be)

16.17% (11.30%) for a federal UK with taxes raised in Scotland and money then sent to Westminster - the long standing policy of the Lib Dems.

Now put this into the context that the current Labour UK government was only elected by just over four out of every ten people that voted and er the reason why the SNP can't bring forward a paper that discusses a referendum on Scotland's future as ONE of a range of options is??

Well what exactly?

See hypocracy - see unionists!

303

MUMFI,

17/08/2007 20:19:26

Labour's share of the vote at the 2005 UK general election was actually only 35.3% so infact a greater share of the Scottish population voted for an independence referendum than returned Tony Blair to 10 Downing St in 2005!

304

MUMFI,

17/08/2007 20:20:55

#425. Your bitterness and bile will consume you what a dreadfully sad post.

305

MUMFI,

17/08/2007 20:22:59

Last Tuesday saw the launch of a Scottish Government White Paper on the powers of Scotland’s Parliament. Unveiled by First Minister Alex Salmond, the document sets out 3 potential futures for Scotland: no change, greater devolution or independence.

Writing in the Daily Telegraph, former Labour Minister Frank Field accused Alex Salmond of being ‘rather cheeky’ for so doing, on the grounds that “devolution for Scotland was meant to put an end to any further discussions on the political shape of the United Kingdom”. Oh dear. Naughty us. We’d better just pack up and go home then, hadn’t we?

Actually, the best retort conceivable to Frank Field is printed on the inside cover of the document itself, where it quotes Irish nationalist Charles Stewart Parnell: “No man has a right to fix the boundary of the march of a nation; no man has a right to say to his country, “Thus far shalt thou go and no further””. It’s a declaration of principal which the other parties, which seem to be swithering at present over whether to take part in the conversation if independence remains an option, would do well to take to heart.

Cathy Jamieson, Labour’s acting leader in Scotland, burbled after the launch that: “We do not support independence. Everything in this paper is about independence”. Well actually, it’s nothing of the kind, as she would know if she’d bothered to even glance at it before parading her ignorance in front of the nation’s television cameras. Similarly, the Lib Dems should beware of making the same mistake as they made post election: that of insisting on the SNP’s repudiation of independence as a precondition of political talks.

The more that the other parties try to portray independence as being somehow illegitimate; as some kind of 1984-esque ‘thoughtcrime’, if you like, the more likely it is that they will be swept into irrelevance by the resulting public contempt. It’s also not good enough to say that since the SNP took 1/3 of the vote, that 2/

306

Andrew Vestphallen,

U.S.A. 17/08/2007 21:45:22

Can anyone tell me why Alex Salmond has just become a U.K. Privy Council member?
I thought he was a committed scottish nationalist? The phrase, "gentlemen, I think we've all been had" has just sprung to mind!

http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/Page76.asp#s
Go to the above link and look under S.
There you'll see the name of one Salmond, Alex.

I think you'll have to address him as the right honourable Mr Alex now!


 

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