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SNP 'not fit to govern'



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Published Date: 08 April 2007
SCOTLAND'S leading public finance expert has issued a savage attack on the SNP, accusing it of "lacking the fiscal competence necessary for governing", and describing its plans for tax cuts as "a nonsense".
Professor Arthur Midwinter claims in a new paper that the party's budget plans constitute "an uncosted wish list" with a £1.8bn hole at its heart.

The SNP's plans to fund a cut in class sizes, to pay for more police officers and to freeze local tax, he adds, are "riddled with funding errors and omissions".

He also backs claims that the proposed new local income tax level of 3p in the pound will actually have to rise to 5p if the party is to balance its books. His comments come at the start of a critical week in the Holyrood election campaign, with the SNP, Labour and the Lib Dems all about to launch their manifestos - and with the SNP apparently stretching its lead.

A poll by Scottish Opinion published today has the SNP leading Labour 40% to 28% on the constituency vote, and 39% to 28% on the regional vote. This would give the SNP 56 seats to Labour's 40.

Last night Labour promised to cut council tax for pensioners by a quarter, and the SNP said its own plans to replace council tax with a new local income tax amounted to "the biggest tax cut in a generation".

Midwinter is a highly-respected former adviser to the Scottish Parliament's powerful Finance Committee, and has been a trenchant critic of the Labour-led Scottish Executive.

His paper analyses the pledges already laid out by the SNP, and costs them against the party's budget proposals. The Nationalists say that, over the next three years, they will find £4.3bn from within the Scottish budget, made up mostly of reserves, efficiency savings, and from cash saved through scrapping 'capital projects' such as the new Edinburgh rail link. Of that figure, £3bn will be used to pay for policies such as reducing class sizes and putting more police on streets. The rest will fund the new local income tax cut. But in a damning conclusion to his paper, Midwinter declares: "This package is riddled with funding errors and omissions, indicative of a party lacking the fiscal competence necessary for governing, and offering Scottish electors a misleading prospectus for their income tax bills, and for service developments which, at this time, constitute simply an uncosted wish list.

"The SNP will have to revisit these plans as a matter of urgency."

His paper is particularly scathing of the SNP's claim that it will deliver efficiency savings equivalent to 1.5% of the Scottish budget. The SNP's shadow Finance Minister, John Swinney, set out plans last month to find £2.7bn over three years from 'efficiency savings'. However, Midwinter declares: "No British government has delivered 1% per annum efficiency savings over a sustained period - not even the Thatcher government of the 1980s."

Midwinter told Scotland on Sunday that much of the money the SNP was relying on was one-off cash, which, once spent, would not be replaced in the coming years.

Midwinter is a Visiting Professor at the Institute for Public Sector Accounting at Edinburgh University. He built his reputation as an unforgiving analyst of government budgeting through the Parliament's Finance Committee, which is frequently hailed as the most influential in Holyrood. He insisted last night that he had no political axe to grind.

But the SNP moved quickly to dampen the impact of his claims. Party sources pointed out that Midwinter had been a Labour councillor 30 years ago. It also issued a paper by Professor David Simpson, the former chief economic adviser to Standard Life, rebutting Midwinter's claims.

It declared: "The language and tone of Mr Midwinter's comments on the SNP's financial plans are more appropriate to a press release of a political party rather than a balanced analysis."

The SNP also released a statement from Professor Neil Kay, emeritus professor of Business Economics at Strathclyde University. It said: "A case could equally be made that these proposals were based on overly cautious assumptions by not factoring in estimates of the nearly £2bn extra that will come to Scotland as a side effect of the Chancellor's last budget."


Do the SNP's figures add up?


NO

PROFFESSOR ARTHUR MIDWINTER


1. Last month, the SNP published its financial proposals in which it proposes to save £4.3bn from the Scottish budget, and redistribute it - £3bn to frontline services and £1.3bn to reduce local tax. It plans to replace council tax with a Scotland-wide income tax, set at 3 pence in the £1, and to freeze council tax during the period required to introduce the reform.

2. The SNP claim that this change will benefit pensioners, families and individuals in middle Scotland, whilst only the richest 10% will pay more. This figure is certainly inconsistent with previous independent studies of local income tax, including the most recent paper from the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA), which estimated that a 4.5p rate would be necessary to replace council tax in 2003/04.

3. As the SNP is now regarded by psephologists as a serious contender to lead a coalition government in the next parliament, there is a pressing need to consider their financial assumptions and projections closely, given their past record of adopting rosy assumptions (rather than realistic ones) to challenge the official estimates of the structural deficit in the public finances, and their confusion over the student funding issue.

4. The proposal on Local Income Tax does not stand up to serious scrutiny. Firstly, the Scottish Executive does not have the power to freeze council tax across the board. Ministers have reserve powers to cap a local authority’s expenditure – by imposing a reduced council tax level with parliamentary approval if they can demonstrate its planned expenditure or expenditure increase is excessive. In the past, this has required evidence through comparisons with other authorities to demonstrate the case.

5. Such action will undoubtedly result in conflict with local government, endangering jobs and services as occurred in the 1980s. Moreover, they would have to fund any freeze on locally financed expenditure from the block grant, and this will cost around £65m per annum at current prices. But that is only to maintain current service levels. The Nationalists are committed to reduce pupil-teacher ratios, expand nursery education, spend more on free personal care, employ 1,000 more police officers, employ more school nurses, all of which will have to be fully funded by the Executive to maintain a freeze in local taxation. This too is uncosted, but will not be cheap.

6. Similar gaps emerge when the proposals for the tax reform are examined. The 3p rate, plus income on second homes, will raise only £1,300m, to fund the £2,131m raised in council tax in 2006/07. The SNP has assumed, wrongly, that the £381m currently paid as council tax benefit to eligible households in Scotland, will be built into the Scottish block. This is nonsense. The block grant is determined through comparable spending on devolved services in England. Council tax benefit is a reserved function, and if council tax is abolished, will no longer be paid to Scottish residents.

7. This is the same principle which applied to the attendance allowance monies (£40m) paid to eligible households prior to free personal care. The Nationalists have been making noises about ‘negotiating’ with the Treasury over both these sums, but this is simply political gamesmanship, for the Treasury does not like ‘exceptions’ to UK wide policy, and will not make them. One of the arguments for devolution was that it would allow Scots to take decisions on their own priorities, and live with the financial consequences. So this £381m will have to be raised from taxpayers in Scotland. This is not ‘Scotland’s money’, but payments made to Scottish residents under UK benefits legislation.

8. The SNP claim to have identified £4.3 billions of savings from the current Scottish Budget, of which £3 billions will be ‘reallocated’ to frontline services, and £1.3 billion for lower taxes to households and business taxpayers. However, the total savings identified is only £3.8 billions – they are £500m adrift (see Table 1).

9. Moreover, £1.1 billions is a straightforward transfer between capital budgets. At this stage, the accounting becomes dangerously inaccurate. Of the £2.7 billions left, £1.4 billions is in non-recurring expenditure, arising from past underspending, mainly on capital, which cannot be used to fund long-term reductions in council tax or business rates.

10. This leaves £1.3 billions of efficiency savings to meet the £1.3 billions of tax cuts – a wholly risky financial assumption. The Nationalists propose to save 1.5% per annum in cash terms, which will all have to fall on resource budgets within the Departmental Expenditure Limit (DEL) to be reallocated for tax reductions. The whole of these savings will have to fall on the resource DEL as savings in the capital DEL cannot be used to fund tax reductions.

11. This creates real problems of delivery. Firstly, at the moment, departments retain any savings for frontline service development. This incentive will be removed if the savings are earmarked for tax reductions. Secondly, Scotland’s councils funding accounts for around a third of the DEL and they suffered higher savings targets last time. Thirdly, no British Government has delivered 1% per annum efficiency savings over a sustained period – not even the Thatcher Government of the 1980s. The current target of £695m has not yet been met, so £1,204m over 3 years is hopelessly unrealistic, and achieving £700m – after three years of savings, would be doing very well indeed.

12. Finally, the SNP claim they will save £150m by streamlining government. As the total budget for administration is only £254m, saving 60% of it is not feasible. My broad judgement is that saving £40m is more realistic.

13. In short, the proposals represent a wholly inadequate basis for tax reductions. The SNP claims that £1.3 billions of tax reductions will be delivered, including £450m in the first year of local income tax. The shortfalls which require funding are for council tax benefit (£381m); the shortfall on efficiency gains (£600m); the cost of freezing council tax for three years (£195m); and the current business rate reduction (£180m).

14. The SNP’s estimate of £3 billions for reallocation to the frontline and £1.3 billions for the reductions is nonsense. They have in fact only identified £2.5 billions of funding for services, a significant proportion of which is capital spending and cannot be used for revenue spend; or short-term underspend in EYF. Any growth in frontline services will have to be funded elsewhere.

15. The £1.3 billions estimate of the cost of tax reductions is needed simply to meet the £1,356m shortfall identified in their budget.

16. Overall, these weaknesses show why the Institute of Fiscal Studies identified an £840m funding gap in the proposals. If this is implemented and falls on taxpayers the argument that only the richest 10% of Scots would pay more would be redundant. In fact, it will require a 5p tax rate, not 3p, and the average fall in tax bills of £3.20 per week will become an increase of £2.77 per week. On the basis of the IFS figures, this would result in around half of Scots taxpayers paying more.

17. Moreover, the reforms would not benefit the poorest households or pensioners as distinct groups. Some 20% of Scottish households – many of whom are pensioners – currently claim full council tax benefit, and will be unaffected by the change. That is why comparisons with the poll tax fiasco are valid, as it too was introduced on the basis of flawed calculations of the redistributive effects.

18. But that is not the end of the problems. The SNP has made a number of new spending commitments, which as yet are uncosted, including a new package of business rates relief, expanding nursery education by 50%, 1,000 extra police officers, and additional school nurses. Nursery education cost £280m last year, so a 50% increase could add £140m to the budget. The police budget could increase by at least £25m. And my best estimate of the cost of their new rates relief package would be around £200m per annum.

19. Overall, this package is riddled with funding errors and omissions, indicative of a party lacking the fiscal competence necessary for governing, and offering Scottish electors a misleading prospectus for their income tax bills, and for service developments, which, at this time, constitute simply an uncosted wish list. The SNP will have to revisit these plans as a matter of urgency.

TABLE 1: THE SNP’s SAVINGS PACKAGE

Asset Sales - £350m
Streamlining Government - £150m
Reserves (EYF) - £1,000m
Efficient Government - £1,204m
Capital Spending - £1,100m
Total £3,804m

• EYF (end-year flexibility) allows departments to carry forward unspent monies to the following year.

TABLE 2: THE MISSING MILLIONS

1. Funding shortfall from council tax benefit - £381m
2. Costs of freezing council tax for three years - £195m
3. Annual costs of business rates reduction introduced in 2006/07, but funded by EYF - £180m
4. Estimated shortfall in efficiency savings over 3 years - £600m
5. Shortfall in savings package - £500m
Total £1,856m

• Arthur Midwinter is a Visiting Professor at the Institute for Public Sector Accounting research at the University of Edinburgh, and the author of ‘A Brief History of Local Government Finance’, prepared for the Burt Committee on Local Government Finance. He was Budget Adviser to the Finance Committee of the Scottish Parliament from 2002 to 2007, and has advised several local authorities on financial issues.

YES

PROFESSOR DAVID SIMPSON


THE language and tone of Mr Midwinter’s comments on the SNP’s financial plans are more appropriate to a press release of a political party rather than a balanced analysis. He is absolutely right about one point, however; all financial assumptions – new or old, whether proposed by the SNP or anyone else – deserve careful scrutiny.

What are the two central propositions to which Mr. Midwinter objects?

The two issues relate to proposed efficiency savings in Government and a move from council tax to local income tax..

Public sector efficiencies are certainly necessary and perfectly possible. Indeed, the counter argument – that any efficiencies are impossible – suggests a nihilist position that progress is never achievable.

The SNP has set a target of 1.5% annual efficiency savings. To judge whether that is reasonable let us consider both targets and achievements.

It is sensible to have targets for improvement. Just as it is right for Gordon Brown to have efficiency targets – and subsequent savings – for the UK, so it is right for politicians to have them in Scotland. Gordon Brown is proposing that across the UK the public sector achieve 3% annual efficiency savings. The SNP’s proposed 1.5% is well within the Chancellor’s own target.

Second, and perhaps even more importantly, the 1.5% efficiency savings are of the same order as has been achieved in cash and time over the last three years by the current Scottish Executive.

So, it seems that the SNP 1.5% target – set to save £2.7 billion over the three years of the next spending review period 2008-2011– is certainly reasonable, and perhaps even modest. The SNP projects that this £2.7 billion will be added to by £500 million from smaller government, (fewer departments and fewer quangos There are around 150 quangos at the moment : do we really need all of them?) as well as asset sales,together with a further £1.1 billion from re-prioritising capital expenditure (e.g. not proceeding with the current Edinburgh Airport Rail Link proposals).

Having identified £4.3 billion in savings, the question then becomes, what would a new administration do with these savings? The SNP proposes splitting these savings between funding frontline services and tax cuts. At a 70 %– 30% split this means £3 billion for frontline services and £1.3 billion returned to the Scottish taxpayer.

This brings us to Mr. Midwinter’s second main argument concerning the abolition of the council tax in favour of a move to a local income tax. Here he seems to have missed a rather basic point. The SNP are proposing a tax cut. They have made that point clear, describing it as the largest tax cut in a generation.

Mr. Midwinter says that moving from the council tax to the local income tax will raise £831 million less in tax than at present. That is half true. £450 million less will be raised. Put another way (and one I suspect that will ring more true to taxpayers) that means £450 million will be returned to Scottish taxpayers. That is a central feature of the SNP plans.

This leaves £381 million in dispute. This £381 million is the amount of the current council tax rebate. Mr. Midwinter assumes that this money would be lost to Scotland in the maw of the Treasury.

What we know from the Burt Review is that arrangements are flexible enough to deal with their proposed alternative to Council Tax. As the Burt Review said: “following discussion with DWP officials and receipt of legal advice, we would not expect eligibility for Council Tax Benefit to be affected by the proposed changes.” So it seems Mr Midwinter is pre-judging negotiations between the Scottish Executive and the UK government. The results of the recent negotiations between the Treasury and the politicians representing the future Northern Ireland Executive are instructive.

Of course, the Burt Commission’s observation makes perfect sense. For if this was not the position, how could any government ever make a change from the current council tax? After all, despite Mr. Midwinter’s protestations to the contrary, the money does not belong to the Treasury – it belongs to the people of Scotland and Scots have a right to choose how to dispose of it.

Many things are changing in Scotland at present, and some things are certainly changing for the better. One is a serious discussion about what forms of tax are acceptable and fair. The SNP and the Liberal Democrats have helped to lead this debate with a serious discussion about local income tax. If other parties have better ideas, they should put them forward, instead of constantly carping that nothing can be done, and that the status quo represents the best of all possible worlds.

Finally, on a point of arithmetic, Mr Midwinter takes exception to what he terms a £150 million saving the SNP identifies in plans to streamline government – writing that £40 million is “more realistic.” It seems that Mr. Midwinter has missed the fairly basic point that this saving is to take place over three years. So, if there is a difference of opinion, it is of the order of £10 million a year – or less than 5% of the Executive’s underspend from last year.

• Professor David Simpson is the former chief economic adviser to Standard Life and founding director of Fraser of Allander Institute

The full article contains 3215 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Jock MacSprog,

07/04/2007 23:23:09

how dare the professor rain on the SNP's recent parade by actually introducing facts and reality into their fantasy world :)

2

IWright,

here, there, everywhere 07/04/2007 23:25:19

Well done Midwinter - you've just blown what little credibility you had left.

3

Bill, Dunblane,

07/04/2007 23:30:59

Funny, I looked up Jock MacSprog on Google and couldn't find his economics degree, or any degree, or anything. Spooky! ;)

4

Fred3,

west lothian 07/04/2007 23:31:38

Erm seem to miss the point that the treasury have already said "no council tax, no council tax rebate"

So a huge hole to fill and services to cut!

5

Gordon, Canonmills,

07/04/2007 23:39:33

Well, well ... look what was hidden away in the middle of the article:

"A poll by Scottish Opinion published today has the SNP leading Labour 40% to 28% on the constituency vote, and 39% to 28% on the regional vote. This would give the SNP 56 seats to Labour's 40. "

But the Hootsmon decided to get a headline from a public servant in the employ of the Gnu Labour party ... especially after the fanfare and trumpets used on Friday to announce the only poll adverse to the SNP in 6 months.


Tsk, tsk .. the dirty tricks are getting dirtier and dirtier ...

6

I'm no really here,

07/04/2007 23:39:36

#1 & #2 obviously only read the part of the article they wanted to read. They should read the rebuttal by Professor David Simpson. Maybe Professor Arthur Midwinter was too rushed to do the math properly. Maybe he was late for a Labour Party function.

7

Jimmyczz,

East Kilbride 07/04/2007 23:41:29

I am amazed by the describtion of Professor Midwinter as an "economist" and leading "expert", who has debunked the economic case for an independent Scotland. My understanding is that Prof Midwinter has a background in political science, indeed is a former professor of politics and a specialist in local government finance.

He has another label which is often attached as "champion of the Union" so its really no shock to see him hand in hand with the pro union scotsman editors.

If you have an article which is supposed to be a balanced yes and no and then add a piece of editorial to the top and a salicious headline as you have done here, you cannot be surprised by your continued fall from grace among the more intelligent members of our population.

8

K.Y,

Edinburgh 07/04/2007 23:44:12

To be fair, I don't think you need an economics degree to see the black hole in the SNP's public spending commitments.

A week's a long time in politics. Lets see if the SNP platform is still standing come May 3rd.

It's time...for Alex Salmond to get a calculator.

9

Tom R,

07/04/2007 23:44:41

This man is NOT an economist. He supports the Labour Party!!!!

Where is the appraisal he promised of the Labour Party?

The Scotsman plan appears to be to publish this man's ramblings at regular intervals-give it a rest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10

K.Y,

Edinburgh 07/04/2007 23:48:58

The SNP's online drones don't like a spot of constructive criticism, do they?

11

I'm no really here,

07/04/2007 23:49:08

"Midwinter is a Visiting Professor at the Institute for Public Sector Accounting at Edinburgh University"

"Professor David Simpson is the former chief economic adviser to Standard Life and founding director of Fraser of Allander Institute"

Given the history of Public Sector Finance and the absolute mess that it's in, I think that I would trust the person who has actually worked in the real world than someone who is an academic and involved with the incumbent administration.

http://www.publicpolicynetwork.ed.ac.uk/Finance/FEMidwint...

12

Bill, Dunblane,

07/04/2007 23:49:12
13

brian mcc,

the arctic 07/04/2007 23:50:50

Someone is not happy with pre-election polls. When the vote is cast and the ballot box results are tallied, the victor takes control. As the deadline approaches to have your say, expect the rhetoric to get much worse than financial.

14

David Park,

07/04/2007 23:51:22

And so, once again, the Scotsman's resident rent-a-gob economist er... no.. not really, more financial expert, has attacked the SNP.
Quelle surprise!
What about some NEWS from the Scotsman. What a piece of crap it really is!

15

Seannair,

Oban 07/04/2007 23:53:57

"Bleak" Midwinter was rumbled away back before 2002 as a tired old Labour placeman. Whenever he is challenged on his "economic" forecasts he retreats with protestations that he is NOT an economist but he is the only spokesperson with pretensions to credibility - if you discount Maitland Mackie and Ian MacMillan - that Labour has so he returns again and again like the proverbial dog to the same old theme.
He has always promised us but never ever delivered a "similarly honest critique" of Labour's proposals. This might be difficult as we don't seem to have these yet to hand.

16

Bill, Dunblane,

07/04/2007 23:54:16

Arthur Midwinter, where have I heard that name before?

http://scotsandindependent.blogspot.com/2007/02/politics-...

Oops!

17

Bill, Dunblane,

07/04/2007 23:57:45

AM2

Hope you're on overtime.

We do it because we believe in our country.

Never mind, your job finishes in just over three weeks.

18

I'm no really here,

07/04/2007 23:58:57

#13 You have a weird idea of what "constructive criticism" means. He's been rolled out by Labour to do their usual scare tactics job, and has been show up to be wrong. It's a pity that the Lab/ LibDem Alliance didn't choose someone more competent to advise their Finance Committee. If he got his sums wrong in this article, I wonder how good an adviser he was?

19

JT fae Cardiff,

08/04/2007 00:03:00

How can an article with both sides of the argument have such a one sided headline?

Scotsman, I'm disappointed.

Another thing - when Labour squeeze out a tiny lead in an opinion poll theres a big fuss. When the SNP get 40% in another it's hidden in an article with previously mentioned negative headline.

I expected better from this paper.

20

Tom R,

08/04/2007 00:03:51

18 AM2

You say "But how about disputing the many points Prof. Midwinter has made instead of questioning his credentials?"

Professor David Simpson does just that above!!

It is also reasonable to question credentials and I do so now:

Professor David Simpson IS an economist and so IS Alex Salmond

Professor Midwinter IS NOT an economist and Jack McConnell IS NOT an economist.

Now, applying basic commonsense, which pair do you look to for ECONOMIC advice!!??

21

Jimmyczz,

East Kilbride 08/04/2007 00:04:07

There is no need for anyone to dispute anything Midwinter says .... its all demolished by professor Simpson and others in the article.
As he says "THE language and tone of Mr Midwinter’s comments on the SNP’s financial plans are more appropriate to a press release of a political party rather than a balanced analysis."

Bill #20 links to a great expose of how NOT unbiased Arthur Midwinter actually is :)

22

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 00:05:11

#18 You are another who hasn't read the full article. We don't have to counter Prof Midwinter. Prof Simpson did that for us quite ably.

23

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 00:08:33

Aren't Scottish Elections, becoming oh so predictable. The Unionists wheel out this lackey every time the Nationalist surge toward another stage in the Independence movement of this country.

What is also disppointing, is that despite the change of ownership away from The Barclays and Biscuit Ersed Heid - we still have arch uninionists running Scotland's paper of record.

Quislings to a man.

24

Wisnaeme,

08/04/2007 00:12:20

.
Peoples party finance quango adviser? Expert Pro Midwinter? Who he? Oh aye, ah remember.Dearie me, how could ah forget.

signed, ex S.K.A.T member and PFI Skye bridge toll protester.

25

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 00:14:57

Hey, let's not be too hard on the professor. He's only doing what he's done his whole life. I suppose that is to belittle his own country and his own people. Critisism should be reserved for the paper that has the stupidity to lead with that headline. It is desperately tring to turn the tide but ends up offending it's own readership by implying that the 40% of Scots who are intending to vote snp (excluding the ones that don't vote before the pedants point this out) are so stupid that they will vote for a party' not fit to govern'. To be fair to the Scotsman, their comment boards are fantastic. Contrast with the Herald. This week they asked its staff to come up with money saving ideas instead of further job cuts. Can I suggest something different. Sack the Nu-Labour stooges like Catherine Macleod, employ a more radical outward looking pro-independence editorial and see the circulation soar. Also, get a comments board as good as this one.

26

Rob - Honest Toun,

08/04/2007 00:18:33

ON THE EVE O THE BATTLE O BANNOCKBURN, Robert the Bruce, King o Scots, speirt his men gin they shuid staund an fecht for independence or no. A 14t century verbal referendum reportit an screivit in 1375 bi John Barbour wi some o the mair obscure auld words an spellins owerset intae a mair modern form.

‘Lordings, we aucht tae praise an love
Almichty God that sits above
That sends us sae fair beginnin.
It is a gret discomfortin
Till oor faes, that in thae weys,
Sae soon haes been rebuttit twice,
For whan they o thair host sall hear
An ken siccarly in whit mainner
Thair vanguard, that wis sae stout,
An syne thon ither jolly rout
That I trow o the best men war
That they micht get amang thaim thare,
War rebuttit sae suddenly,
I trow an kens it aw clearly
That mony a hert sall waverand be
That seemit airlier o gret courage,
An frae the hert be discomfortit
The body is nocht worth a mite,
Tharfor I trow that guid endin
Sall follae frae oor beginnin.
But I say nocht this you till
For that ye shuid follae ma will
To fecht, but in you aw sall be,
For gyff ye thinks it richt that we
Fecht we sall, an giff ye will
We leave, yer likin tae fulfill.
I sall consent in ilka wey
Tae dae richt as ye will devise,
Tharfor speak yer mind plainly.’
An wi ae vyce than did they cry,
‘Guid king, athoot ony mair delay
The morn as suin as ye see day
Ordane us aw intae the battle,
For fear o daith we sall nocht fail
Nor nae pain sall refusit be
Till we hae made oor country free.’

Thae forebeirs o oors, votin in the first independence referendum, wis weel awaur o aw the risks an dangers they war like tae face an war weel awaur o hou puir thair ain country wis in compare tae England. They kent braw weel that the English airmy wis faur gretter nor thair ain but that day they haed gien the English twa bluidy neb

27

Alex Young Laird of Drumchapel,

Madrid 08/04/2007 00:25:33

You know those adverts for washing powder? The wans when they have some male 'expert' in a white coat to tell housewives that their washing powder has been scientifically proved to be new and improved.

I have a new name for our friend: Midwinter Automatic.

28

,

08/04/2007 00:31:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 511958, Article id was mapped to record!
29

Tom R,

08/04/2007 00:33:19

#32 AM2

You have avoided my question. Nowadays you often do not reply to me at all-and when you do it is only with questions :-)

It is a pretty safe bet that Professor Simpson can answer all these questions and that the reason he has not done so will probably include:

* he was not allowed sufficient space
* he was given little forewarning of the article

Sorry, my friend, this is just Labour dirty tricks and as you intend to vote Tory you are should not support it :-)

30

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 00:40:06

AM2. #32
I don't think anyone will do what you suggest and I don't think you understand politics. It doesn't have to be done. The election will be won by the SNP on the basis of a national mood. And on that basis the Nu- Labour party is heading for a heavy defeat. You know those self-help books that say if you are stressed, if you are deeply worried about something the best thing you can do is presume the worst scenario and then accept it? Well presume and accept a spectacular SNP victory. That might take you out of the blackness you inhabit every night on these boards. Have an Ovaltine and go to bed.

31

Skirvy,

Auld Reek 08/04/2007 00:44:35

Alright so we have 2 of Scotlands top buisnessmen and an economics expert for the Bank of Scotland and also Alex Salmond who's an economist. Against a Bliar, a conman (Broon) and a sliket wee egit McConnell and now this muppet. Who would you believe?

The Scotsmans Unionist campaign is rolling full steam a head. It may aswell be called the Unionist for there one sided bias.

Scotsman you are seriously losing customers with the cr*p you print. Start being impartial and report facts not just propaganda because you are beoming an Edinburgh Version of the Record and the Sun.

32

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 00:50:10

OUR professor is shiny and great and is completely right about everything. He builds nursery schools for blind orphans in his spare time and climbs mountains for charities. He is a patriot and a poet in seventeen languages.

YOUR professor is tatty and smelly and completely wrong about everything. He clubs seals and sells their fur to arms dealers in his spare time and sets fire to barns. He is a traitor to his country and a noted drunk.

I hope that helps.

33

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 00:53:01

I think AM2 has had an Ovaltine and gone to bed! I hope he said his prayers. Oidhche mhath. Tha mise ' toirt an leabaidh orm fhìn cuideachd.

34

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 00:53:26

Oh no, he's back.

35

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 00:54:38

#32 Read the 19 points and you will find that in some he is simply expressing HIS opinion (3 and 19 for example). Prof Simpson has taken the points and summarised Prof Midwinter's attack on the SNP into two main areas, and then he has answered these.

When you show that a persons basic assumptions are wrong, there is then no need to respond to all their arguments.

36

Guga,

Rockall 08/04/2007 00:54:44

Probably Midwinter can't afford to buy a peerage, so he keeps coming out with all the garbage in the hope that his buddies in New Labour will give him one for free.

The Scotsman, of course, continues to give him plenty of coverage to try and push their New Labour, unionist wheelbarrow.

37

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 00:55:03

Skirvy, Am-Balach, Cincinnatus and others - do you really ever actually buy the paper?

Do you only want to read stuff you agree with? Do you feel threatened to read stuff you disagree with?

Do you think a newspaper should tailor its news and opinions to the tastes of the most noisy people who claim to be its paying readers?

38

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 00:59:15

Disgraceful headline by The Scotsman. AND they have a link on the right side of the page to this article: "Do the Math"

Cheap piece of electioneering The Scotsman!!!

You're forgetting the power of the forum.

39

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 00:59:16

#17 - "What about some NEWS from the Scotsman. What a piece of crap it really is!" And yet you're up at one in the morning reading and responding to it!

40

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:01:15

#31 - do you really think your point is better made by writing it in a form of Scots?

Is "Tube" a word in Scots?

41

Murray in Canada,

Nearby the Pacific 08/04/2007 01:02:18

Bob 31
Verra weel said!!

42

clawmaster,

glasgow 08/04/2007 01:03:40

Never read anything positive from this Midwinter chap in my life. Even in the offchance his figures were true scotland would not be gathering debt at the same rate as the UK

"Provisional estimates show that for the calendar year 2006 the UK recorded a government deficit of £35.4 billion"

"At the end of 2006 general government debt was £571.8 billion"

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=277

Why doesn't he and the Scotsman challenge Gordon Brown over this??

43

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 01:06:01

#45 I would expect the paper NOT to tailor ANY of its news, or express ANY opinion of it's own except in Editorial. That's the problem here, it's doing BOTH of those in it's "news" columns, apparently in favour of the Labour Party.

44

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 08/04/2007 01:10:36

OK folks ... how many of you went to school with Prof Midwinter? Hmm ... thought not. I did. And he talks party-political inspired economic bollocks. Prof Simpson has him nailed. Trust me.

45

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 01:13:48

Must be disheartening for The Scotsman. Scotland hasn't woke up yet on Sunday (some haven't got to bed yet), and their lead article has already been ripped to pieces and shown up for what it really is.

Isn't the Internet wonderful.

46

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:14:07

#52 - Never trust anyone who says "Trust me".

Very important life-lesson.

47

Not Brian Taylor,

08/04/2007 01:14:12

The Scotsman's balanced unbiased reporting once again.

Word count given to SNP-bashing Prof Midwinter: 1551
Word count given to SNP-supporting Prof Simpson: 883
Word count given to neutral Prof Kay: 59

Plus the article itself.

No agenda to see here folks! Move along!

48

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 01:19:10

#45 Gnasher
I do buy the paper sometimes and I've paid my £29.99 as a subscriber. I think the Scotsman has improved and at least it has commentators with a wide range of views. But the last wee while it has rejoiced in any news that might just show Scotland is as crap as Gordon Brown says it is. It has to realise that most Scots, whether Liberal, Tory or Labour find this offensive. I would like the Scotsman to go from strength to strength. And I don't mind it arguing for the Union. But it cannot be at the expense of my country and people. I think just about all Scots would agree with this.

49

Rob - Honest Toun,

08/04/2007 01:22:34

#48 A wis writin it for Scots tae read. No the likes o yersel. Unionism haes daured the teachin o Scots history in Scottish scuils for a guid lang while noo. A wunner whit for?

50

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 01:27:19

Oi Gnasher, take a chill pill man.
I also subscribe with £29.99 membership, and I think it's ideal vfm.

Do you work for the paper, you seem a bit, well - miffed as if it's personal. It's not personal, the Unionist media is one reason the Independence message has struggled to get through. So, if you find a number of people on here at whatever time (yon is a poor argument btw, given you are posting at a similar time), taking on Barnes, Broon and Finlayson and completely ignoring the Unionist irrelevance Warner - then WELCOME TO THE NEW DEMOCRATICE WORLD OF THE INTERNET.

Internet connections at the ready, it's like a rebel army without central co-ordination all working to the same end - Independence:-)

Something to really grind yer teeth over

51

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 01:27:55

'Night folks!

52

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:28:17

You really think that disagreeing with and being critical of the Scottish Nationalist policy is equivalent to putting down the nation. And lots of people agree with you. Quite pathetic. I can only suggest you set up a new paper, full of good news about the SNP, at least until the glorious day you take control and nationalise the Scotsman. Then you'll show them.

53

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/04/2007 01:29:16

THIS is the real story, although you'd struggle to find it:

"A poll by Scottish Opinion published today has the SNP leading Labour 40% to 28% on the constituency vote, and 39% to 28% on the regional vote. This would give the SNP 56 seats to Labour's 40."

What will be the headline if the SNP win?
"Wendy Alexander to lead Labour to victory in 2011"

54

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 01:31:56

Gnasher man, easy. Nae need to bandy all that negative energy about - I'm feeling like the Great Lebowski here - Chill.

The nationalist movement is a broad church, it will fraction in to a standard right-left ding dong once Independence is reached and I think that privatisation of the Scotsman, unlikely. Though, for relevance it might have to update it's dated so last century editorial line.

55

Freeman Stand,

08/04/2007 01:32:51

Here are the reasons why Labour are unfit to govern:

Dirty hospitals, illegal wars, unfair Council taxes, broken promises on class sizes, rising levels of child poverty, NHS waiting lists, shoddy PFI schools and hospitals, cash for Honours, billions for Trident and Jack McConnell for First Minister.

Perhaps ex Labour Councillor Midwinter would like to mull over these facts.

56

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/04/2007 01:33:36

Gnasher this paper and pretty much every other in Scotland is blatantly pro-Labour, not necessarily because they beleive in them but because they get a lot of money from them in advertising revenue. Open your eyes.
We dont have a democratic press. In fact it's laughably biased. It may suit your agenda 100%, but it doesn't make it right.

57

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:37:34

57 - hoots, mon the noo, och aye.

You seem to think someone with my opinions isn't Scottish enough. Only those who agree with you are entitled to be Scottish. And this is is just about the use of a version of one of our local dialects, not anything important.

I am firmly of the view that if you scratch a nationalist you will soon expose a type who believes that people who disagree are traitors who would benefit from a couple of bullets in the back of the head. That's how it used to be in Ireland and how it still is in the Basque country and in many parts of the Balkans. It mst be hard to keep the fixed grin of tolerance from breaking.

58

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 01:42:36

Gnasher, it equally doesn't mean that all Nats are wild eyed lunatics, that need some edumacating to understand the true benefit of Westminster rule.

Still, I see in your fantasy, you believe us to be like the Old IRA. Interesting.

I think History will record that you and others like Eddie Barnes, Warner etc will look like absurdities in the Benedict Arnold mode, once the tipping point is finally reached, whenever that glorious day is.

Until then, mind yer back in yer dreams min:-))

59

innesm,

Austin, Texas 08/04/2007 01:47:09

To Iain Martin, Editor: See any correlation between your declining circulation numbers and waving the Union Jack above the fold?

60

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:48:19

Sorry if my reaction to #57 was a bit extreme.

I meant that there are some nationalists - the ones like Rob - Honest Toun who thinks exactly that I'm not a Scot because of my opinion.

Not all nationalists would perpetrate crimes against non-nationalists but some would, while others would say "tut-tut" but look the other way and say we were asking for it.

And I do mean it about the mask of tolerance.

61

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 08/04/2007 01:50:46

#54. Gnasher
I accepted your 'Never trust anyone who says "Trust me".' comment as whimsical - until I read your further insidious comments.

You are just a sick bully-boy basket case who has been well rumbled by others on this site.

62

Am Balach,

08/04/2007 01:53:47

#60 Gnasher

It's not 'disagreeing with the nationalists' policy that upsets people. It's the drooling, dribbling glee that the likes of AM2 (and sometines the Scotsman) take from any perceived failure in our country. I can understand a unionist argument based on a shared history, common religion, workers' rights, welfare state, WWII and monarchy. The older unionists Rangers fans will argue this case but they're also deeply patriotic about Scotland. What I don't understand is an argument for the Union based on insulting Scotland and her people. Summed up by younger Rangers fans wearing England tops. AM2 and these youngsters should remember that a love for the Union never used to mean denegrating your own country.

63

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 01:54:56

Nae bother Gnasher, the thing is in anonymous debates some bait is dangled and you upped and leapt like a big Salmon on speed.

My view is that Scotland will gain Independence and i think that's Historically inevitable. With the original Union being to secure Englands Northern border, whilst the Scot's got access to the Empire and their faith secured.

No the border is secured, despite your wilder fantasy moments.

The Scot's will still get the trading routes

And the faith is less in regular attendance than the Catholic Church, with the influx of Poles bolstering their numbers to around 5% of the Scot's population, with the Church of Scotland accounting for another 4% - it's fair to say Faith aint the pressing issue it used to be.

With all three major engines of Union undermined, Political separation is inevitable. That does not mean, that instantly English folk would be unwelcome.

64

Edward,

08/04/2007 01:58:46

This paper along with the Labour party have finally slipped into pure farce!
Instead of trying to fight on their misrable record and to state what there going to do, they havegone for a complete negative campaign which is digusting. It maybe something thats acceptable in London and th spiv political peddlers there, but its ceratianly not acceptable in Scotland. In addition there is the constant anti SNP attacks and the breifing of journalists and editors by Labour of what to write, which is also sickening.
This paper may deny that there being briefed by Labour, but its a fact.
The more Labour panic, the more stronger the attacks are, such as this one.
Midwinter is so discredited, due to his close links with Labour, especially with the Alexander's, he cannot be taken seriously

65

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 02:00:28

Right, I'll see you all here again this time next week.

Gnasher man, Yoga is a very good de-stressor, so is massage, and certain illegal substances. Whatever it is that works for you, try it.

I hope your dreams are sweet and untroubled by those nasty nat bogeymen.

SAOR ALBA:-))

66

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 08/04/2007 02:06:38

#73. Wini, England
"I find him rather witty and clever."

Go tell him then and join his new-found one-man fan club. There are others on here who find him a boorish backstud with little of substance to contribute.

67

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 08/04/2007 02:08:40

Nowhere in Mr. Midwinter's does he prove that any of the SNP numbers are wrong based on the criteria to which they were calculated.

He does state in numerous places that he personally does not agree with the projections and he personally does not think that Westminster will agree to certain transfers that the SNP are counting on.

I applaud him for taking the time to read the SNP documents for that is far more than most here, most of the media and almost of the unionist party supporters.

Unfortunately, where he falls apart is his contention that only he is right and no one else's projections make sense.

If he had said, "While I have profound disagreement with the projections made the SNP in their manifesto, I cannot find any calculative error in the numbers.", I would have had more respect for the gentleman.

Instead he states, "Overall, this package is riddled with funding errors and omissions, indicative of a party lacking the fiscal competence necessary for governing, and offering Scottish electors a misleading prospectus for their income tax bills, and for service developments, which, at this time, constitute simply an uncosted wish list. The SNP will have to revisit these plans as a matter of urgency."

He proved no one funding error. He objected to projections. He indicated that he did not like the policy objectives. He said he didn't Westminster or the local councils would agree to certain changes in the fiscal relationship.

In short, he parrotted the Labour Party line.

I think that Mr. Simpson said it best when he stated, " If other parties have better ideas, they should put them forward, instead of constantly carping that nothing can be done, and that the status quo represents the best of all possible worlds."

That statement enscapsulizes the entire problem with the union in one sentence.

68

Freeman Stand,

08/04/2007 02:11:01

#65. Gnasher, I come from a family of political activists who were anti fascist, pro CND and wanted to see a more even distribution of wealth. I learned my politics at my grandmother's knee - a Labour councillor for many years. I have always been a Nationalist. I never wanted to shoot Granny.

In the past I've been a member of an SNP branch where there were American, English and Irish activists; currently I'm in a constituency where many of the activists are Scots Asians.

Your murderous, fascist stereotype simply doesn't reflect the true nature of Scotland's civic nationalism.

69

Willie Macleod,

Wick 08/04/2007 02:17:44

Arthur Midwinter has been as critical of Labour in the past as he is of the Nationilists now.The man Alex Salmond revered and quoted verbatum is now denegrated for speaking his mind If this is the SNPs Scotland it certainly isnt mine Vote Labour

70

,

08/04/2007 02:19:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 512104, Article id was mapped to record!
71

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 08/04/2007 02:22:13

#78. Freeman Stand

Don't encourage the idiot.

72

Robbie,

NZ 08/04/2007 02:28:08

Jack McConnell was in the past also not happy with the Prof.
“In October the First Minister dismissed the findings of Professor Arthur Midwinter....”
To quote Jack, the First Minister: “I do not agree with Professor Midwinter's report, for a number of reasons.”
Why? Because Professor Midwinter had described, “ the First Minister's statements as 'grossly misleading and inaccurate' and that he made 'a number of errors' “.
http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/site/id/5488/title/McCon...

73

Robbie,

NZ 08/04/2007 02:34:00

Is this all old news to you guys?
"Secret paper reveals Labour's lies over ID cards

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/ne...

76

Richardinho,

08/04/2007 03:11:26

MidWinter puts forward a very familiar labourlite argument-that taxpayers money is better to be spent by sensible bureaucrats like himself, than by the taxpayers themselves.

in fact it has been shown-with numerous examples in the US-for example in New York under Rudy Gulliani- that cutting taxes actually increases the tax take.

this is because the government when it has money tends to waste it. And the more it has the more it wastes.

this labour government is particularly wasteful.

So sorry, professor, but I just don't trust you with my money.

77

Alan Reid,

surfing in Lyall bay, dude! 08/04/2007 03:22:25

Usual garbage from The Scotsman. Do they really think i'll change my mind with this crap. At least with the Sun you get some babe with her t#ts out, not that i've ever bought that brainless ass wipe of a rag.
Still nice to see hidden in the depths of this piece that the SNP are still going well, hope it keeps going. Upward and onward Scotland, we can do it. GO SNP, it's time...well at least 50 years too late time!!

78

Alan Reid,

Still surfing 08/04/2007 04:00:16
79

david team,

08/04/2007 05:44:56

really i repeat the point i madeyesterday is there real skill and experience to deliver , in the majority of msps who a few years ago were .....

80

Ubi,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 05:51:42

SNP 'not fit to govern'. How does that distinguish them from Labour ?