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Published Date: 08 April 2007
SCOTLAND'S leading public finance expert has issued a savage attack on the SNP, accusing it of "lacking the fiscal competence necessary for governing", and describing its plans for tax cuts as "a nonsense".
Professor Arthur Midwinter claims in a new paper that the party's budget plans constitute "an uncosted wish list" with a £1.8bn hole at its heart.

The SNP's plans to fund a cut in class sizes, to pay for more police officers and to freeze local tax, he adds, are "riddled with funding errors and omissions".

He also backs claims that the proposed new local income tax level of 3p in the pound will actually have to rise to 5p if the party is to balance its books. His comments come at the start of a critical week in the Holyrood election campaign, with the SNP, Labour and the Lib Dems all about to launch their manifestos - and with the SNP apparently stretching its lead.

A poll by Scottish Opinion published today has the SNP leading Labour 40% to 28% on the constituency vote, and 39% to 28% on the regional vote. This would give the SNP 56 seats to Labour's 40.

Last night Labour promised to cut council tax for pensioners by a quarter, and the SNP said its own plans to replace council tax with a new local income tax amounted to "the biggest tax cut in a generation".

Midwinter is a highly-respected former adviser to the Scottish Parliament's powerful Finance Committee, and has been a trenchant critic of the Labour-led Scottish Executive.

His paper analyses the pledges already laid out by the SNP, and costs them against the party's budget proposals. The Nationalists say that, over the next three years, they will find £4.3bn from within the Scottish budget, made up mostly of reserves, efficiency savings, and from cash saved through scrapping 'capital projects' such as the new Edinburgh rail link. Of that figure, £3bn will be used to pay for policies such as reducing class sizes and putting more police on streets. The rest will fund the new local income tax cut. But in a damning conclusion to his paper, Midwinter declares: "This package is riddled with funding errors and omissions, indicative of a party lacking the fiscal competence necessary for governing, and offering Scottish electors a misleading prospectus for their income tax bills, and for service developments which, at this time, constitute simply an uncosted wish list.

"The SNP will have to revisit these plans as a matter of urgency."

His paper is particularly scathing of the SNP's claim that it will deliver efficiency savings equivalent to 1.5% of the Scottish budget. The SNP's shadow Finance Minister, John Swinney, set out plans last month to find £2.7bn over three years from 'efficiency savings'. However, Midwinter declares: "No British government has delivered 1% per annum efficiency savings over a sustained period - not even the Thatcher government of the 1980s."

Midwinter told Scotland on Sunday that much of the money the SNP was relying on was one-off cash, which, once spent, would not be replaced in the coming years.

Midwinter is a Visiting Professor at the Institute for Public Sector Accounting at Edinburgh University. He built his reputation as an unforgiving analyst of government budgeting through the Parliament's Finance Committee, which is frequently hailed as the most influential in Holyrood. He insisted last night that he had no political axe to grind.

But the SNP moved quickly to dampen the impact of his claims. Party sources pointed out that Midwinter had been a Labour councillor 30 years ago. It also issued a paper by Professor David Simpson, the former chief economic adviser to Standard Life, rebutting Midwinter's claims.

It declared: "The language and tone of Mr Midwinter's comments on the SNP's financial plans are more appropriate to a press release of a political party rather than a balanced analysis."

The SNP also released a statement from Professor Neil Kay, emeritus professor of Business Economics at Strathclyde University. It said: "A case could equally be made that these proposals were based on overly cautious assumptions by not factoring in estimates of the nearly £2bn extra that will come to Scotland as a side effect of the Chancellor's last budget."


Do the SNP's figures add up?


NO

PROFFESSOR ARTHUR MIDWINTER


1. Last month, the SNP published its financial proposals in which it proposes to save £4.3bn from the Scottish budget, and redistribute it - £3bn to frontline services and £1.3bn to reduce local tax. It plans to replace council tax with a Scotland-wide income tax, set at 3 pence in the £1, and to freeze council tax during the period required to introduce the reform.

2. The SNP claim that this change will benefit pensioners, families and individuals in middle Scotland, whilst only the richest 10% will pay more. This figure is certainly inconsistent with previous independent studies of local income tax, including the most recent paper from the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA), which estimated that a 4.5p rate would be necessary to replace council tax in 2003/04.

3. As the SNP is now regarded by psephologists as a serious contender to lead a coalition government in the next parliament, there is a pressing need to consider their financial assumptions and projections closely, given their past record of adopting rosy assumptions (rather than realistic ones) to challenge the official estimates of the structural deficit in the public finances, and their confusion over the student funding issue.

4. The proposal on Local Income Tax does not stand up to serious scrutiny. Firstly, the Scottish Executive does not have the power to freeze council tax across the board. Ministers have reserve powers to cap a local authority’s expenditure – by imposing a reduced council tax level with parliamentary approval if they can demonstrate its planned expenditure or expenditure increase is excessive. In the past, this has required evidence through comparisons with other authorities to demonstrate the case.

5. Such action will undoubtedly result in conflict with local government, endangering jobs and services as occurred in the 1980s. Moreover, they would have to fund any freeze on locally financed expenditure from the block grant, and this will cost around £65m per annum at current prices. But that is only to maintain current service levels. The Nationalists are committed to reduce pupil-teacher ratios, expand nursery education, spend more on free personal care, employ 1,000 more police officers, employ more school nurses, all of which will have to be fully funded by the Executive to maintain a freeze in local taxation. This too is uncosted, but will not be cheap.

6. Similar gaps emerge when the proposals for the tax reform are examined. The 3p rate, plus income on second homes, will raise only £1,300m, to fund the £2,131m raised in council tax in 2006/07. The SNP has assumed, wrongly, that the £381m currently paid as council tax benefit to eligible households in Scotland, will be built into the Scottish block. This is nonsense. The block grant is determined through comparable spending on devolved services in England. Council tax benefit is a reserved function, and if council tax is abolished, will no longer be paid to Scottish residents.

7. This is the same principle which applied to the attendance allowance monies (£40m) paid to eligible households prior to free personal care. The Nationalists have been making noises about ‘negotiating’ with the Treasury over both these sums, but this is simply political gamesmanship, for the Treasury does not like ‘exceptions’ to UK wide policy, and will not make them. One of the arguments for devolution was that it would allow Scots to take decisions on their own priorities, and live with the financial consequences. So this £381m will have to be raised from taxpayers in Scotland. This is not ‘Scotland’s money’, but payments made to Scottish residents under UK benefits legislation.

8. The SNP claim to have identified £4.3 billions of savings from the current Scottish Budget, of which £3 billions will be ‘reallocated’ to frontline services, and £1.3 billion for lower taxes to households and business taxpayers. However, the total savings identified is only £3.8 billions – they are £500m adrift (see Table 1).

9. Moreover, £1.1 billions is a straightforward transfer between capital budgets. At this stage, the accounting becomes dangerously inaccurate. Of the £2.7 billions left, £1.4 billions is in non-recurring expenditure, arising from past underspending, mainly on capital, which cannot be used to fund long-term reductions in council tax or business rates.

10. This leaves £1.3 billions of efficiency savings to meet the £1.3 billions of tax cuts – a wholly risky financial assumption. The Nationalists propose to save 1.5% per annum in cash terms, which will all have to fall on resource budgets within the Departmental Expenditure Limit (DEL) to be reallocated for tax reductions. The whole of these savings will have to fall on the resource DEL as savings in the capital DEL cannot be used to fund tax reductions.

11. This creates real problems of delivery. Firstly, at the moment, departments retain any savings for frontline service development. This incentive will be removed if the savings are earmarked for tax reductions. Secondly, Scotland’s councils funding accounts for around a third of the DEL and they suffered higher savings targets last time. Thirdly, no British Government has delivered 1% per annum efficiency savings over a sustained period – not even the Thatcher Government of the 1980s. The current target of £695m has not yet been met, so £1,204m over 3 years is hopelessly unrealistic, and achieving £700m – after three years of savings, would be doing very well indeed.

12. Finally, the SNP claim they will save £150m by streamlining government. As the total budget for administration is only £254m, saving 60% of it is not feasible. My broad judgement is that saving £40m is more realistic.

13. In short, the proposals represent a wholly inadequate basis for tax reductions. The SNP claims that £1.3 billions of tax reductions will be delivered, including £450m in the first year of local income tax. The shortfalls which require funding are for council tax benefit (£381m); the shortfall on efficiency gains (£600m); the cost of freezing council tax for three years (£195m); and the current business rate reduction (£180m).

14. The SNP’s estimate of £3 billions for reallocation to the frontline and £1.3 billions for the reductions is nonsense. They have in fact only identified £2.5 billions of funding for services, a significant proportion of which is capital spending and cannot be used for revenue spend; or short-term underspend in EYF. Any growth in frontline services will have to be funded elsewhere.

15. The £1.3 billions estimate of the cost of tax reductions is needed simply to meet the £1,356m shortfall identified in their budget.

16. Overall, these weaknesses show why the Institute of Fiscal Studies identified an £840m funding gap in the proposals. If this is implemented and falls on taxpayers the argument that only the richest 10% of Scots would pay more would be redundant. In fact, it will require a 5p tax rate, not 3p, and the average fall in tax bills of £3.20 per week will become an increase of £2.77 per week. On the basis of the IFS figures, this would result in around half of Scots taxpayers paying more.

17. Moreover, the reforms would not benefit the poorest households or pensioners as distinct groups. Some 20% of Scottish households – many of whom are pensioners – currently claim full council tax benefit, and will be unaffected by the change. That is why comparisons with the poll tax fiasco are valid, as it too was introduced on the basis of flawed calculations of the redistributive effects.

18. But that is not the end of the problems. The SNP has made a number of new spending commitments, which as yet are uncosted, including a new package of business rates relief, expanding nursery education by 50%, 1,000 extra police officers, and additional school nurses. Nursery education cost £280m last year, so a 50% increase could add £140m to the budget. The police budget could increase by at least £25m. And my best estimate of the cost of their new rates relief package would be around £200m per annum.

19. Overall, this package is riddled with funding errors and omissions, indicative of a party lacking the fiscal competence necessary for governing, and offering Scottish electors a misleading prospectus for their income tax bills, and for service developments, which, at this time, constitute simply an uncosted wish list. The SNP will have to revisit these plans as a matter of urgency.

TABLE 1: THE SNP’s SAVINGS PACKAGE

Asset Sales - £350m
Streamlining Government - £150m
Reserves (EYF) - £1,000m
Efficient Government - £1,204m
Capital Spending - £1,100m
Total £3,804m

• EYF (end-year flexibility) allows departments to carry forward unspent monies to the following year.

TABLE 2: THE MISSING MILLIONS

1. Funding shortfall from council tax benefit - £381m
2. Costs of freezing council tax for three years - £195m
3. Annual costs of business rates reduction introduced in 2006/07, but funded by EYF - £180m
4. Estimated shortfall in efficiency savings over 3 years - £600m
5. Shortfall in savings package - £500m
Total £1,856m

• Arthur Midwinter is a Visiting Professor at the Institute for Public Sector Accounting research at the University of Edinburgh, and the author of ‘A Brief History of Local Government Finance’, prepared for the Burt Committee on Local Government Finance. He was Budget Adviser to the Finance Committee of the Scottish Parliament from 2002 to 2007, and has advised several local authorities on financial issues.

YES

PROFESSOR DAVID SIMPSON


THE language and tone of Mr Midwinter’s comments on the SNP’s financial plans are more appropriate to a press release of a political party rather than a balanced analysis. He is absolutely right about one point, however; all financial assumptions – new or old, whether proposed by the SNP or anyone else – deserve careful scrutiny.

What are the two central propositions to which Mr. Midwinter objects?

The two issues relate to proposed efficiency savings in Government and a move from council tax to local income tax..

Public sector efficiencies are certainly necessary and perfectly possible. Indeed, the counter argument – that any efficiencies are impossible – suggests a nihilist position that progress is never achievable.

The SNP has set a target of 1.5% annual efficiency savings. To judge whether that is reasonable let us consider both targets and achievements.

It is sensible to have targets for improvement. Just as it is right for Gordon Brown to have efficiency targets – and subsequent savings – for the UK, so it is right for politicians to have them in Scotland. Gordon Brown is proposing that across the UK the public sector achieve 3% annual efficiency savings. The SNP’s proposed 1.5% is well within the Chancellor’s own target.

Second, and perhaps even more importantly, the 1.5% efficiency savings are of the same order as has been achieved in cash and time over the last three years by the current Scottish Executive.

So, it seems that the SNP 1.5% target – set to save £2.7 billion over the three years of the next spending review period 2008-2011– is certainly reasonable, and perhaps even modest. The SNP projects that this £2.7 billion will be added to by £500 million from smaller government, (fewer departments and fewer quangos There are around 150 quangos at the moment : do we really need all of them?) as well as asset sales,together with a further £1.1 billion from re-prioritising capital expenditure (e.g. not proceeding with the current Edinburgh Airport Rail Link proposals).

Having identified £4.3 billion in savings, the question then becomes, what would a new administration do with these savings? The SNP proposes splitting these savings between funding frontline services and tax cuts. At a 70 %– 30% split this means £3 billion for frontline services and £1.3 billion returned to the Scottish taxpayer.

This brings us to Mr. Midwinter’s second main argument concerning the abolition of the council tax in favour of a move to a local income tax. Here he seems to have missed a rather basic point. The SNP are proposing a tax cut. They have made that point clear, describing it as the largest tax cut in a generation.

Mr. Midwinter says that moving from the council tax to the local income tax will raise £831 million less in tax than at present. That is half true. £450 million less will be raised. Put another way (and one I suspect that will ring more true to taxpayers) that means £450 million will be returned to Scottish taxpayers. That is a central feature of the SNP plans.

This leaves £381 million in dispute. This £381 million is the amount of the current council tax rebate. Mr. Midwinter assumes that this money would be lost to Scotland in the maw of the Treasury.

What we know from the Burt Review is that arrangements are flexible enough to deal with their proposed alternative to Council Tax. As the Burt Review said: “following discussion with DWP officials and receipt of legal advice, we would not expect eligibility for Council Tax Benefit to be affected by the proposed changes.” So it seems Mr Midwinter is pre-judging negotiations between the Scottish Executive and the UK government. The results of the recent negotiations between the Treasury and the politicians representing the future Northern Ireland Executive are instructive.

Of course, the Burt Commission’s observation makes perfect sense. For if this was not the position, how could any government ever make a change from the current council tax? After all, despite Mr. Midwinter’s protestations to the contrary, the money does not belong to the Treasury – it belongs to the people of Scotland and Scots have a right to choose how to dispose of it.

Many things are changing in Scotland at present, and some things are certainly changing for the better. One is a serious discussion about what forms of tax are acceptable and fair. The SNP and the Liberal Democrats have helped to lead this debate with a serious discussion about local income tax. If other parties have better ideas, they should put them forward, instead of constantly carping that nothing can be done, and that the status quo represents the best of all possible worlds.

Finally, on a point of arithmetic, Mr Midwinter takes exception to what he terms a £150 million saving the SNP identifies in plans to streamline government – writing that £40 million is “more realistic.” It seems that Mr. Midwinter has missed the fairly basic point that this saving is to take place over three years. So, if there is a difference of opinion, it is of the order of £10 million a year – or less than 5% of the Executive’s underspend from last year.

• Professor David Simpson is the former chief economic adviser to Standard Life and founding director of Fraser of Allander Institute

The full article contains 3215 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Jock MacSprog,

07/04/2007 23:23:09

how dare the professor rain on the SNP's recent parade by actually introducing facts and reality into their fantasy world :)

2

IWright,

here, there, everywhere 07/04/2007 23:25:19

Well done Midwinter - you've just blown what little credibility you had left.

3

Bill, Dunblane,

07/04/2007 23:30:59

Funny, I looked up Jock MacSprog on Google and couldn't find his economics degree, or any degree, or anything. Spooky! ;)

4

Fred3,

west lothian 07/04/2007 23:31:38

Erm seem to miss the point that the treasury have already said "no council tax, no council tax rebate"

So a huge hole to fill and services to cut!

5

Gordon, Canonmills,

07/04/2007 23:39:33

Well, well ... look what was hidden away in the middle of the article:

"A poll by Scottish Opinion published today has the SNP leading Labour 40% to 28% on the constituency vote, and 39% to 28% on the regional vote. This would give the SNP 56 seats to Labour's 40. "

But the Hootsmon decided to get a headline from a public servant in the employ of the Gnu Labour party ... especially after the fanfare and trumpets used on Friday to announce the only poll adverse to the SNP in 6 months.


Tsk, tsk .. the dirty tricks are getting dirtier and dirtier ...

6

I'm no really here,

07/04/2007 23:39:36

#1 & #2 obviously only read the part of the article they wanted to read. They should read the rebuttal by Professor David Simpson. Maybe Professor Arthur Midwinter was too rushed to do the math properly. Maybe he was late for a Labour Party function.

7

Jimmyczz,

East Kilbride 07/04/2007 23:41:29

I am amazed by the describtion of Professor Midwinter as an "economist" and leading "expert", who has debunked the economic case for an independent Scotland. My understanding is that Prof Midwinter has a background in political science, indeed is a former professor of politics and a specialist in local government finance.

He has another label which is often attached as "champion of the Union" so its really no shock to see him hand in hand with the pro union scotsman editors.

If you have an article which is supposed to be a balanced yes and no and then add a piece of editorial to the top and a salicious headline as you have done here, you cannot be surprised by your continued fall from grace among the more intelligent members of our population.

8

K.Y,

Edinburgh 07/04/2007 23:44:12

To be fair, I don't think you need an economics degree to see the black hole in the SNP's public spending commitments.

A week's a long time in politics. Lets see if the SNP platform is still standing come May 3rd.

It's time...for Alex Salmond to get a calculator.

9

Tom R,

07/04/2007 23:44:41

This man is NOT an economist. He supports the Labour Party!!!!

Where is the appraisal he promised of the Labour Party?

The Scotsman plan appears to be to publish this man's ramblings at regular intervals-give it a rest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10

K.Y,

Edinburgh 07/04/2007 23:48:58

The SNP's online drones don't like a spot of constructive criticism, do they?

11

I'm no really here,

07/04/2007 23:49:08

"Midwinter is a Visiting Professor at the Institute for Public Sector Accounting at Edinburgh University"

"Professor David Simpson is the former chief economic adviser to Standard Life and founding director of Fraser of Allander Institute"

Given the history of Public Sector Finance and the absolute mess that it's in, I think that I would trust the person who has actually worked in the real world than someone who is an academic and involved with the incumbent administration.

http://www.publicpolicynetwork.ed.ac.uk/Finance/FEMidwint...

12

Bill, Dunblane,

07/04/2007 23:49:12
13

brian mcc,

the arctic 07/04/2007 23:50:50

Someone is not happy with pre-election polls. When the vote is cast and the ballot box results are tallied, the victor takes control. As the deadline approaches to have your say, expect the rhetoric to get much worse than financial.

14

David Park,

07/04/2007 23:51:22

And so, once again, the Scotsman's resident rent-a-gob economist er... no.. not really, more financial expert, has attacked the SNP.
Quelle surprise!
What about some NEWS from the Scotsman. What a piece of crap it really is!

15

Seannair,

Oban 07/04/2007 23:53:57

"Bleak" Midwinter was rumbled away back before 2002 as a tired old Labour placeman. Whenever he is challenged on his "economic" forecasts he retreats with protestations that he is NOT an economist but he is the only spokesperson with pretensions to credibility - if you discount Maitland Mackie and Ian MacMillan - that Labour has so he returns again and again like the proverbial dog to the same old theme.
He has always promised us but never ever delivered a "similarly honest critique" of Labour's proposals. This might be difficult as we don't seem to have these yet to hand.

16

Bill, Dunblane,

07/04/2007 23:54:16

Arthur Midwinter, where have I heard that name before?

http://scotsandindependent.blogspot.com/2007/02/politics-...

Oops!

17

Bill, Dunblane,

07/04/2007 23:57:45

AM2

Hope you're on overtime.

We do it because we believe in our country.

Never mind, your job finishes in just over three weeks.

18

I'm no really here,

07/04/2007 23:58:57

#13 You have a weird idea of what "constructive criticism" means. He's been rolled out by Labour to do their usual scare tactics job, and has been show up to be wrong. It's a pity that the Lab/ LibDem Alliance didn't choose someone more competent to advise their Finance Committee. If he got his sums wrong in this article, I wonder how good an adviser he was?

19

JT fae Cardiff,

08/04/2007 00:03:00

How can an article with both sides of the argument have such a one sided headline?

Scotsman, I'm disappointed.

Another thing - when Labour squeeze out a tiny lead in an opinion poll theres a big fuss. When the SNP get 40% in another it's hidden in an article with previously mentioned negative headline.

I expected better from this paper.

20

Tom R,

08/04/2007 00:03:51

18 AM2

You say "But how about disputing the many points Prof. Midwinter has made instead of questioning his credentials?"

Professor David Simpson does just that above!!

It is also reasonable to question credentials and I do so now:

Professor David Simpson IS an economist and so IS Alex Salmond

Professor Midwinter IS NOT an economist and Jack McConnell IS NOT an economist.

Now, applying basic commonsense, which pair do you look to for ECONOMIC advice!!??

21

Jimmyczz,

East Kilbride 08/04/2007 00:04:07

There is no need for anyone to dispute anything Midwinter says .... its all demolished by professor Simpson and others in the article.
As he says "THE language and tone of Mr Midwinter’s comments on the SNP’s financial plans are more appropriate to a press release of a political party rather than a balanced analysis."

Bill #20 links to a great expose of how NOT unbiased Arthur Midwinter actually is :)

22

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 00:05:11

#18 You are another who hasn't read the full article. We don't have to counter Prof Midwinter. Prof Simpson did that for us quite ably.

23

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 00:08:33

Aren't Scottish Elections, becoming oh so predictable. The Unionists wheel out this lackey every time the Nationalist surge toward another stage in the Independence movement of this country.

What is also disppointing, is that despite the change of ownership away from The Barclays and Biscuit Ersed Heid - we still have arch uninionists running Scotland's paper of record.

Quislings to a man.

24

Wisnaeme,

08/04/2007 00:12:20

.
Peoples party finance quango adviser? Expert Pro Midwinter? Who he? Oh aye, ah remember.Dearie me, how could ah forget.

signed, ex S.K.A.T member and PFI Skye bridge toll protester.

25

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 00:14:57

Hey, let's not be too hard on the professor. He's only doing what he's done his whole life. I suppose that is to belittle his own country and his own people. Critisism should be reserved for the paper that has the stupidity to lead with that headline. It is desperately tring to turn the tide but ends up offending it's own readership by implying that the 40% of Scots who are intending to vote snp (excluding the ones that don't vote before the pedants point this out) are so stupid that they will vote for a party' not fit to govern'. To be fair to the Scotsman, their comment boards are fantastic. Contrast with the Herald. This week they asked its staff to come up with money saving ideas instead of further job cuts. Can I suggest something different. Sack the Nu-Labour stooges like Catherine Macleod, employ a more radical outward looking pro-independence editorial and see the circulation soar. Also, get a comments board as good as this one.

26

Rob - Honest Toun,

08/04/2007 00:18:33

ON THE EVE O THE BATTLE O BANNOCKBURN, Robert the Bruce, King o Scots, speirt his men gin they shuid staund an fecht for independence or no. A 14t century verbal referendum reportit an screivit in 1375 bi John Barbour wi some o the mair obscure auld words an spellins owerset intae a mair modern form.

‘Lordings, we aucht tae praise an love
Almichty God that sits above
That sends us sae fair beginnin.
It is a gret discomfortin
Till oor faes, that in thae weys,
Sae soon haes been rebuttit twice,
For whan they o thair host sall hear
An ken siccarly in whit mainner
Thair vanguard, that wis sae stout,
An syne thon ither jolly rout
That I trow o the best men war
That they micht get amang thaim thare,
War rebuttit sae suddenly,
I trow an kens it aw clearly
That mony a hert sall waverand be
That seemit airlier o gret courage,
An frae the hert be discomfortit
The body is nocht worth a mite,
Tharfor I trow that guid endin
Sall follae frae oor beginnin.
But I say nocht this you till
For that ye shuid follae ma will
To fecht, but in you aw sall be,
For gyff ye thinks it richt that we
Fecht we sall, an giff ye will
We leave, yer likin tae fulfill.
I sall consent in ilka wey
Tae dae richt as ye will devise,
Tharfor speak yer mind plainly.’
An wi ae vyce than did they cry,
‘Guid king, athoot ony mair delay
The morn as suin as ye see day
Ordane us aw intae the battle,
For fear o daith we sall nocht fail
Nor nae pain sall refusit be
Till we hae made oor country free.’

Thae forebeirs o oors, votin in the first independence referendum, wis weel awaur o aw the risks an dangers they war like tae face an war weel awaur o hou puir thair ain country wis in compare tae England. They kent braw weel that the English airmy wis faur gretter nor thair ain but that day they haed gien the English twa bluidy neb

27

Alex Young Laird of Drumchapel,

Madrid 08/04/2007 00:25:33

You know those adverts for washing powder? The wans when they have some male 'expert' in a white coat to tell housewives that their washing powder has been scientifically proved to be new and improved.

I have a new name for our friend: Midwinter Automatic.

28

,

08/04/2007 00:31:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 511958, Article id was mapped to record!
29

Tom R,

08/04/2007 00:33:19

#32 AM2

You have avoided my question. Nowadays you often do not reply to me at all-and when you do it is only with questions :-)

It is a pretty safe bet that Professor Simpson can answer all these questions and that the reason he has not done so will probably include:

* he was not allowed sufficient space
* he was given little forewarning of the article

Sorry, my friend, this is just Labour dirty tricks and as you intend to vote Tory you are should not support it :-)

30

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 00:40:06

AM2. #32
I don't think anyone will do what you suggest and I don't think you understand politics. It doesn't have to be done. The election will be won by the SNP on the basis of a national mood. And on that basis the Nu- Labour party is heading for a heavy defeat. You know those self-help books that say if you are stressed, if you are deeply worried about something the best thing you can do is presume the worst scenario and then accept it? Well presume and accept a spectacular SNP victory. That might take you out of the blackness you inhabit every night on these boards. Have an Ovaltine and go to bed.

31

Skirvy,

Auld Reek 08/04/2007 00:44:35

Alright so we have 2 of Scotlands top buisnessmen and an economics expert for the Bank of Scotland and also Alex Salmond who's an economist. Against a Bliar, a conman (Broon) and a sliket wee egit McConnell and now this muppet. Who would you believe?

The Scotsmans Unionist campaign is rolling full steam a head. It may aswell be called the Unionist for there one sided bias.

Scotsman you are seriously losing customers with the cr*p you print. Start being impartial and report facts not just propaganda because you are beoming an Edinburgh Version of the Record and the Sun.

32

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 00:50:10

OUR professor is shiny and great and is completely right about everything. He builds nursery schools for blind orphans in his spare time and climbs mountains for charities. He is a patriot and a poet in seventeen languages.

YOUR professor is tatty and smelly and completely wrong about everything. He clubs seals and sells their fur to arms dealers in his spare time and sets fire to barns. He is a traitor to his country and a noted drunk.

I hope that helps.

33

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 00:53:01

I think AM2 has had an Ovaltine and gone to bed! I hope he said his prayers. Oidhche mhath. Tha mise ' toirt an leabaidh orm fhìn cuideachd.

34

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 00:53:26

Oh no, he's back.

35

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 00:54:38

#32 Read the 19 points and you will find that in some he is simply expressing HIS opinion (3 and 19 for example). Prof Simpson has taken the points and summarised Prof Midwinter's attack on the SNP into two main areas, and then he has answered these.

When you show that a persons basic assumptions are wrong, there is then no need to respond to all their arguments.

36

Guga,

Rockall 08/04/2007 00:54:44

Probably Midwinter can't afford to buy a peerage, so he keeps coming out with all the garbage in the hope that his buddies in New Labour will give him one for free.

The Scotsman, of course, continues to give him plenty of coverage to try and push their New Labour, unionist wheelbarrow.

37

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 00:55:03

Skirvy, Am-Balach, Cincinnatus and others - do you really ever actually buy the paper?

Do you only want to read stuff you agree with? Do you feel threatened to read stuff you disagree with?

Do you think a newspaper should tailor its news and opinions to the tastes of the most noisy people who claim to be its paying readers?

38

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 00:59:15

Disgraceful headline by The Scotsman. AND they have a link on the right side of the page to this article: "Do the Math"

Cheap piece of electioneering The Scotsman!!!

You're forgetting the power of the forum.

39

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 00:59:16

#17 - "What about some NEWS from the Scotsman. What a piece of crap it really is!" And yet you're up at one in the morning reading and responding to it!

40

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:01:15

#31 - do you really think your point is better made by writing it in a form of Scots?

Is "Tube" a word in Scots?

41

Murray in Canada,

Nearby the Pacific 08/04/2007 01:02:18

Bob 31
Verra weel said!!

42

clawmaster,

glasgow 08/04/2007 01:03:40

Never read anything positive from this Midwinter chap in my life. Even in the offchance his figures were true scotland would not be gathering debt at the same rate as the UK

"Provisional estimates show that for the calendar year 2006 the UK recorded a government deficit of £35.4 billion"

"At the end of 2006 general government debt was £571.8 billion"

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=277

Why doesn't he and the Scotsman challenge Gordon Brown over this??

43

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 01:06:01

#45 I would expect the paper NOT to tailor ANY of its news, or express ANY opinion of it's own except in Editorial. That's the problem here, it's doing BOTH of those in it's "news" columns, apparently in favour of the Labour Party.

44

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 08/04/2007 01:10:36

OK folks ... how many of you went to school with Prof Midwinter? Hmm ... thought not. I did. And he talks party-political inspired economic bollocks. Prof Simpson has him nailed. Trust me.

45

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 01:13:48

Must be disheartening for The Scotsman. Scotland hasn't woke up yet on Sunday (some haven't got to bed yet), and their lead article has already been ripped to pieces and shown up for what it really is.

Isn't the Internet wonderful.

46

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:14:07

#52 - Never trust anyone who says "Trust me".

Very important life-lesson.

47

Not Brian Taylor,

08/04/2007 01:14:12

The Scotsman's balanced unbiased reporting once again.

Word count given to SNP-bashing Prof Midwinter: 1551
Word count given to SNP-supporting Prof Simpson: 883
Word count given to neutral Prof Kay: 59

Plus the article itself.

No agenda to see here folks! Move along!

48

Am Balach,

Skye 08/04/2007 01:19:10

#45 Gnasher
I do buy the paper sometimes and I've paid my £29.99 as a subscriber. I think the Scotsman has improved and at least it has commentators with a wide range of views. But the last wee while it has rejoiced in any news that might just show Scotland is as crap as Gordon Brown says it is. It has to realise that most Scots, whether Liberal, Tory or Labour find this offensive. I would like the Scotsman to go from strength to strength. And I don't mind it arguing for the Union. But it cannot be at the expense of my country and people. I think just about all Scots would agree with this.

49

Rob - Honest Toun,

08/04/2007 01:22:34

#48 A wis writin it for Scots tae read. No the likes o yersel. Unionism haes daured the teachin o Scots history in Scottish scuils for a guid lang while noo. A wunner whit for?

50

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 01:27:19

Oi Gnasher, take a chill pill man.
I also subscribe with £29.99 membership, and I think it's ideal vfm.

Do you work for the paper, you seem a bit, well - miffed as if it's personal. It's not personal, the Unionist media is one reason the Independence message has struggled to get through. So, if you find a number of people on here at whatever time (yon is a poor argument btw, given you are posting at a similar time), taking on Barnes, Broon and Finlayson and completely ignoring the Unionist irrelevance Warner - then WELCOME TO THE NEW DEMOCRATICE WORLD OF THE INTERNET.

Internet connections at the ready, it's like a rebel army without central co-ordination all working to the same end - Independence:-)

Something to really grind yer teeth over

51

I'm no really here,

08/04/2007 01:27:55

'Night folks!

52

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:28:17

You really think that disagreeing with and being critical of the Scottish Nationalist policy is equivalent to putting down the nation. And lots of people agree with you. Quite pathetic. I can only suggest you set up a new paper, full of good news about the SNP, at least until the glorious day you take control and nationalise the Scotsman. Then you'll show them.

53

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/04/2007 01:29:16

THIS is the real story, although you'd struggle to find it:

"A poll by Scottish Opinion published today has the SNP leading Labour 40% to 28% on the constituency vote, and 39% to 28% on the regional vote. This would give the SNP 56 seats to Labour's 40."

What will be the headline if the SNP win?
"Wendy Alexander to lead Labour to victory in 2011"

54

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 01:31:56

Gnasher man, easy. Nae need to bandy all that negative energy about - I'm feeling like the Great Lebowski here - Chill.

The nationalist movement is a broad church, it will fraction in to a standard right-left ding dong once Independence is reached and I think that privatisation of the Scotsman, unlikely. Though, for relevance it might have to update it's dated so last century editorial line.

55

Freeman Stand,

08/04/2007 01:32:51

Here are the reasons why Labour are unfit to govern:

Dirty hospitals, illegal wars, unfair Council taxes, broken promises on class sizes, rising levels of child poverty, NHS waiting lists, shoddy PFI schools and hospitals, cash for Honours, billions for Trident and Jack McConnell for First Minister.

Perhaps ex Labour Councillor Midwinter would like to mull over these facts.

56

Steve,

Bo'ness 08/04/2007 01:33:36

Gnasher this paper and pretty much every other in Scotland is blatantly pro-Labour, not necessarily because they beleive in them but because they get a lot of money from them in advertising revenue. Open your eyes.
We dont have a democratic press. In fact it's laughably biased. It may suit your agenda 100%, but it doesn't make it right.

57

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:37:34

57 - hoots, mon the noo, och aye.

You seem to think someone with my opinions isn't Scottish enough. Only those who agree with you are entitled to be Scottish. And this is is just about the use of a version of one of our local dialects, not anything important.

I am firmly of the view that if you scratch a nationalist you will soon expose a type who believes that people who disagree are traitors who would benefit from a couple of bullets in the back of the head. That's how it used to be in Ireland and how it still is in the Basque country and in many parts of the Balkans. It mst be hard to keep the fixed grin of tolerance from breaking.

58

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 01:42:36

Gnasher, it equally doesn't mean that all Nats are wild eyed lunatics, that need some edumacating to understand the true benefit of Westminster rule.

Still, I see in your fantasy, you believe us to be like the Old IRA. Interesting.

I think History will record that you and others like Eddie Barnes, Warner etc will look like absurdities in the Benedict Arnold mode, once the tipping point is finally reached, whenever that glorious day is.

Until then, mind yer back in yer dreams min:-))

59

innesm,

Austin, Texas 08/04/2007 01:47:09

To Iain Martin, Editor: See any correlation between your declining circulation numbers and waving the Union Jack above the fold?

60

Gnasher,

08/04/2007 01:48:19

Sorry if my reaction to #57 was a bit extreme.

I meant that there are some nationalists - the ones like Rob - Honest Toun who thinks exactly that I'm not a Scot because of my opinion.

Not all nationalists would perpetrate crimes against non-nationalists but some would, while others would say "tut-tut" but look the other way and say we were asking for it.

And I do mean it about the mask of tolerance.

61

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 08/04/2007 01:50:46

#54. Gnasher
I accepted your 'Never trust anyone who says "Trust me".' comment as whimsical - until I read your further insidious comments.

You are just a sick bully-boy basket case who has been well rumbled by others on this site.

62

Am Balach,

08/04/2007 01:53:47

#60 Gnasher

It's not 'disagreeing with the nationalists' policy that upsets people. It's the drooling, dribbling glee that the likes of AM2 (and sometines the Scotsman) take from any perceived failure in our country. I can understand a unionist argument based on a shared history, common religion, workers' rights, welfare state, WWII and monarchy. The older unionists Rangers fans will argue this case but they're also deeply patriotic about Scotland. What I don't understand is an argument for the Union based on insulting Scotland and her people. Summed up by younger Rangers fans wearing England tops. AM2 and these youngsters should remember that a love for the Union never used to mean denegrating your own country.

63

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 01:54:56

Nae bother Gnasher, the thing is in anonymous debates some bait is dangled and you upped and leapt like a big Salmon on speed.

My view is that Scotland will gain Independence and i think that's Historically inevitable. With the original Union being to secure Englands Northern border, whilst the Scot's got access to the Empire and their faith secured.

No the border is secured, despite your wilder fantasy moments.

The Scot's will still get the trading routes

And the faith is less in regular attendance than the Catholic Church, with the influx of Poles bolstering their numbers to around 5% of the Scot's population, with the Church of Scotland accounting for another 4% - it's fair to say Faith aint the pressing issue it used to be.

With all three major engines of Union undermined, Political separation is inevitable. That does not mean, that instantly English folk would be unwelcome.

64

Edward,

08/04/2007 01:58:46

This paper along with the Labour party have finally slipped into pure farce!
Instead of trying to fight on their misrable record and to state what there going to do, they havegone for a complete negative campaign which is digusting. It maybe something thats acceptable in London and th spiv political peddlers there, but its ceratianly not acceptable in Scotland. In addition there is the constant anti SNP attacks and the breifing of journalists and editors by Labour of what to write, which is also sickening.
This paper may deny that there being briefed by Labour, but its a fact.
The more Labour panic, the more stronger the attacks are, such as this one.
Midwinter is so discredited, due to his close links with Labour, especially with the Alexander's, he cannot be taken seriously

65

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 08/04/2007 02:00:28

Right, I'll see you all here again this time next week.

Gnasher man, Yoga is a very good de-stressor, so is massage, and certain illegal substances. Whatever it is that works for you, try it.

I hope your dreams are sweet and untroubled by those nasty nat bogeymen.

SAOR ALBA:-))

66

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 08/04/2007 02:06:38

#73. Wini, England
"I find him rather witty and clever."

Go tell him then and join his new-found one-man fan club. There are others on here who find him a boorish backstud with little of substance to contribute.

67

,

08/04/2007 02:08:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
68

Freeman Stand,

08/04/2007 02:11:01

#65. Gnasher, I come from a family of political activists who were anti fascist, pro CND and wanted to see a more even distribution of wealth. I learned my politics at my grandmother's knee - a Labour councillor for many years. I have always been a Nationalist. I never wanted to shoot Granny.

In the past I've been a member of an SNP branch where there were American, English and Irish activists; currently I'm in a constituency where many of the activists are Scots Asians.

Your murderous, fascist stereotype simply doesn't reflect the true nature of Scotland's civic nationalism.

69

Willie Macleod,

Wick 08/04/2007 02:17:44

Arthur Midwinter has been as critical of Labour in the past as he is of the Nationilists now.The man Alex Salmond revered and quoted verbatum is now denegrated for speaking his mind If this is the SNPs Scotland it certainly isnt mine Vote Labour

70

,

08/04/2007 02:19:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 512104, Article id was mapped to record!
71

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 08/04/2007 02:22:13

#78. Freeman Stand

Don't encourage the idiot.

72

Robbie,

NZ 08/04/2007 02:28:08

Jack McConnell was in the past also not happy with the Prof.
“In October the First Minister dismissed the findings of Professor Arthur Midwinter....”
To quote Jack, the First Minister: “I do not agree with Professor Midwinter's report, for a number of reasons.”
Why? Because Professor Midwinter had described, “ the First Minister's statements as 'grossly misleading and inaccurate' and that he made 'a number of errors' “.
http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/site/id/5488/title/McCon...

73

Robbie,

NZ 08/04/2007 02:34:00

Is this all old news to you guys?
"Secret paper reveals Labour's lies over ID cards

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/ne...

76

Richardinho,

08/04/2007 03:11:26

MidWinter puts forward a very familiar labourlite argument-that taxpayers money is better to be spent by sensible bureaucrats like himself, than by the taxpayers themselves.

in fact it has been shown-with numerous examples in the US-for example in New York under Rudy Gulliani- that cutting taxes actually increases the tax take.

this is because the government when it has money tends to waste it. And the more it has the more it wastes.

this labour government is particularly wasteful.

So sorry, professor, but I just don't trust you with my money.

77

Alan Reid,

surfing in Lyall bay, dude! 08/04/2007 03:22:25

Usual garbage from The Scotsman. Do they really think i'll change my mind with this crap. At least with the Sun you get some babe with her t#ts out, not that i've ever bought that brainless ass wipe of a rag.
Still nice to see hidden in the depths of this piece that the SNP are still going well, hope it keeps going. Upward and onward Scotland, we can do it. GO SNP, it's time...well at least 50 years too late time!!

78

Alan Reid,

Still surfing 08/04/2007 04:00:16
79

david team,

08/04/2007 05:44:56

really i repeat the point i madeyesterday is there real skill and experience to deliver , in the majority of msps who a few years ago were .....

80

Ubi,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 05:51:42

SNP 'not fit to govern'. How does that distinguish them from Labour ?

81

Geoff,

South Africa 08/04/2007 06:15:51

Robbie NZ,IWright,Livilion et al-Happy Easter to you all! Haven't rolled an egg for some decades!
39 Gnasher Smile of the Day!

82

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 06:24:26

The SNP Don't Fit In Govan

It's getting dirty now. All sorts of weird and obscure so-called experts will appear to put the record straight.

You won't here any saying, "The SNP need sound fiscal guidance. I am willing to help them and any other party should they be voted into power."

No, sir. What you will here is, "The SNP are not fit to govern."

They might well have said, "The SNP don't fit in Govan."

It's all so predicable.

Hold ranks, chaps, it is the usual jibes to humiliate us as weak and ineffectual.

83

GrahamH,

08/04/2007 06:29:43

The best the Scotsman can do today for a substantial headline is something from "a Visiting Professor at the Institute for Public Sector Accounting at Edinburgh University"

What about someone that actually does something, not just lectures. George Matthewson for example. Tom Farmer perhaps.

Read the 14th February analysis on this guy and his well known Unionist views and non objective arguments.

http://scotsandindependent.blogspot.com/2007/02/politics-...

84

Heilan laddie,

Vilnius 08/04/2007 06:35:14

I wonder how much Labour have payed him so spout more lies to scare monger the people.

85

langtonian,

scotus 08/04/2007 06:35:15

THE S.N.P. PEAKED TOO SOON
#31 Spare us these historical/hysterical "bon-mots",

Your rantings give credence for those wishing to distance themselves from the image of Scotland still stuck in the mists of historical imagery that has long since past it's sell by date.

What is requiered for remaining a viable , modern,practical part of the Global economy is a common sense approach to the daily running of everchanging situations which require a sound basis in fact, not wishfull thinking.


The problem with the S.N.P. policies is they always
have the unfotunate capability to gender a feeling that they do not care about about how they get into the political driving seat, if they can just get there, then they will, given the circumstance, drag everyone down with them.

As but one historical example ,whereby a well educated,sophisticated nation,plumbed the depths when voting with their hearts,and not their heads.
Germans overwhelmingly supported Adolf Hitler
and susequently lived or indead died for their moments of mad hysterical voting.

Anyway the S.N.P. have peaked much too early.

86

Kenny A,

Scotland 08/04/2007 06:38:54

Please forgive my ignorance but I have never heard of the obviously esteemed Proffessor Midwinter until now. I do however know that Mr Salmond from his previous incarnation in the finincial world does have a grasp on economics.

Look forward to the next unknown expert appearing on the scene.

87

Kenny A,

Scotland 08/04/2007 06:42:14

#99

Read a book called 2History of the SS", written by a German, overwhelliming support would actualy appear to have been pure and simple fear.

Good book but heavy going

88

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh we are in it to win it 08/04/2007 06:49:27

101#thank you, i've never heard of this expert.names midwinter i hear,we are in spring now,get a grip scotsman,you are out of touch

89

Heilan laddie,

Vilnius 08/04/2007 06:52:08

101. Kenny A- Aye, I tend to agree with you. But also the chairman of the RBS gives his full support for the SNP. I think I tend more to believe the man who turned the RBS into one of the worlds leading financial institutions and not some "Nutty Professor" who I have never heard of.

90

Gruithainn,

Arbroath 08/04/2007 06:53:04

This gimp, Midwinter, used to be a Labour councillor here in Arbroath.

He's a Labour lackywith a flawed prodpectus & hardly constitutes objectivity, balance or credibility - bit like the Hootsmon these days!!!

91

Road to the isles,

08/04/2007 07:07:24

Scotsman with the stirring stick out again. Why do you all rise to the bait?

92

Mikey,

08/04/2007 07:13:51

#99, you keep saying that! The SNP have peaked too early. Every time a new poll comes out showing the SNP further ahead, it's 'the SNP have peaked too early!'

Are you another one who will leave (and not be missed) after independence?

93

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 07:15:11

In the bleak midwinter,
Frosty wind made moan.
Earth stood hard as iron,
Labour men did foam ....

(With apologies to Christina Rossetti)

I must say I like Midwinter's portrait at the top of thread. Very seventies Spotlight Casting Directory.

Acting type: Thrusting, prudent, leads with his chin.

Last role: voice for Spongebob Smartipants. Previously, Dr. Death, MA, SNP. in "Emergency - Labour Ward." Also played Inspector Trenchant Critic in the sit-com, "Dumbo Parlimentals." Other skills: can ride publicity coattails, collector of liver spots, is father of Nicole Smith's child. Available for kiddies parties as Fiscal the Clown.

LA

94

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 07:18:31

Professor Midwinter is in a good position to express his detailed analysis of the SNP's economic promises! What he doesn't say is that once in government very few political parties deliver what they promised, or costed? I dare say the SNP will be no different should they become the largest party at Holyrood? However, in recent history allegedly competent Conservative and Labour governments with some of the finest brains in the land have been responsible for some of the most catastrophic economic crises the U.K. has ever faced? Wilson and Healey's devaluation of the pound and subsequent IMF humiliation which could have been avoided! Major and Lamont's ERM debacle resulting in the unneccesary waste of Sterling reserves, 15 per cent mortgages, and self-inflicted negative equity! Brown's recent withdrawal of pension tax-credits resulting in poor returns for hundreds of thousands! However, the greatest folly of the 20th Century must be that of Thatcher's government which wasted tens of billions of pounds of North Sea Oil taxes on 3.5 million long term unemployed! During the same period, the Norwegian government set up the StatOil Fund to invest some of the taxes from the Norwegian Sector of the North Sea for future generations! This colossal fund now totals sum 315 billion American dollars! Norway, with a population of 4.5 million, is amongst the ten richest nations in the world, with a much higher GDP and GNP than the UK! For over 300 hundred years, Norway formed a Union with Denmark and Sweden, until 1905, when it became an independent nation. Like Norway, Denmark and Sweden are amongst the wealthiest nations in the world. All three Scandinavian nations also have some of the highest male and female life expectancies in the world.
Lachie Todd.

95

Swilly Tisher,

Loch maree 08/04/2007 07:19:36

So, this morning large sections of the press find themselves firmly in the gutter (where they belong) with regard to the SNP - or teetering on the very edge. The campaign is only just beginning ; we in Mr Salmond's honourable camp can expect much more. But we should be flattered by the attention. Change is in the wind. No , that's a gross understatement. Change will come with a mighty typhoon come May the Third - one in which every slate will be removed from Jack & Bridget's temporary abode within Bute House.

96

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 07:24:06

99 - Langtonian, britannicus

You'll still be bleating that line on 4 May.

Surely labour could've given you a better one.

Have a wee 'peek' at this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news....=

Look forward to your post on 4 May. ;)

97

John Jamieson,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 07:25:01

I don't remember Prof Midwinter attacking Gordon Brown's 3% efficiency target. Can this be one of the benefits of scale we hear about where it is fine for the UK to try for 3% but utterly impossible for Scotland to make savings of half that amount ?

98

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 07:30:38

99. langtonian, scotus
Bon mots?
I enjoyed that wee piece of Scottish narrative that none of the kids in our schools are likely to have either heard or probably understood.

btw
My young niece labours under the impression that Lallands/Doric is 'bad language' and refuses to read Burns for that reason, how sad and wrong is that?

The Labour movement would do as well to remember their roots.

Nazism?
Simply beneath contempt and such hysterical 'rantings' mark you as worth ignoring in future.

As for peaking too early? You wish!

99

donald,

weegieland 08/04/2007 07:33:38

I supose the SNP is to blame for Labour's mess?

100

Ian G,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 07:33:59

Well when you read all the article its good news for the SNP.

Strange but one never reads an article were the unionists including Labour are scrutinized and need to answer where their maths don't add up.
Why does a newspaper never look closely very closely at other parties?
Only the SNP policies are looked at, how long does Labour need to get its policies right? For Ever?
We know what they stand for...
Nuclear Weapons in Scotland
Illegal Wars
More failer
Run Scotland and Scots down
To be better improved Tartan Tories
Cash for Peerages
Blame the Tories

Well we really don't need to wonder what labour stands for we know, Its Time for change.
Vote SNP 1st on every ballot paper.

Or maybe we should all leave for Ireland for a better Tory Free lifestyle!

101

Roy,

08/04/2007 07:42:08

Typical Unscotsman/Midwinter headline for an article written by a pair of hacks who can't even spell 'professor':

"...Do the SNP's figures add up?
NO

PROFFESSOR ARTHUR MIDWINTER

1. Last month, the SNP published its financial proposals ...."

102

Niloc,

Aberdeen 08/04/2007 07:47:17

Another biased Scotsman headline. I think its a disgrace that you are allowed to continue using the title, perhaps a better title for your little english paper should be "The Unionist"

The more you knock the SNP the more you are knocking every true Scotsman, because you are saying we are not good enough to run our own country. You are doing an excellent election job for the SNP every article you write.

103

RCG,

Cynerspace 08/04/2007 07:47:33

Read more by following this link below to a roundup of today's papers and Prof Midwinter in particular. And you can pos there as well without the clutter - This forum is becoming too busy, I am afraid. A heathy sign, but now a bit difficult to keep up with

http://www.youscotland.com/debate/showthread.php?p=290#po...

104

RCG,

Cynerspace 08/04/2007 07:50:13

It helps if yoiu post the right link...sorry, here it is now
http://www.youscotland.com/debate/showthread.php?t=91

105

david team,

08/04/2007 07:50:38

how many of the msps could get £50k + jobs in thereal world ?

106

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 08:02:52

Clones springs to mind when i think of snp supporters,same dribble,well said professor

107

daveserviceman,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 08:04:12

A conversation I had with alex salmond a while back
said he wanted with independance all english business and people out of scotland and this included all the american companies and traders out as well
including all british servicemen, he said several thousand lost jobs was a price worth paying for independance. some of my relatives are english and came to scotland in the 1800's and married edinburgh folk so I guess Ill have to dig them up and despatch them and of course I am the snps enemy I am royal navy, david

108

Ronnie Ray,

glasgow 08/04/2007 08:04:24

Yet more scare tactics from ..."THE ENGLISHMAN IN EDINBURGH"(the scots......choke ...man)..give it up were not listening anymore...go back to bleak house midwinter......another mealy mouthed unionist just like GEORGE GALLOWAY...thats right youre a UNIONIST are you not george!

109

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 08:05:35

Labour are beginning to sound increasingly desperate.

The worst tactic was to put Blair AND Brown together in one press conference. Union Jack McConnell looked as if squashed between lift doors.

We were given an image of two leaders putting on a public show of unity though privately at loggerheads, one impatient to see the back of the other, his pal uncertain if he is the right man to succeed him, and in between sat a wee pretendy politician who'd forgotten his booster cushion.

Demeaning the SNP's fiscal policies instead of trying to show how much the Union has and can benefit Scotland was a tactical blunder.

The trouble is, Brown is unable to state what good he has actually done Scotland in all his years as chancellor. All Blair can argue is he gave Scotland Devolution and look how ungenerous we are at the gift.

But to go beyond that and suggest Scotland will be swallowed up in some black hole when it is palpably clear smaller countries in the EU are prospering, just makes Labour look foolish and unprepared for battle.

Long may that situation reign.

LA

110

,

08/04/2007 08:05:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
111

fimo,

08/04/2007 08:11:27

I still can't understand how 2.5million people can support the other 2.5million who don't work (and that doesn't include the sick and the unemployed). We have little industry - the majority of our income seems to come from juggling other peoples money, retail and probably construction (and a bit of tourism). So what happens if the financial world has another sneeze; what is left to support Scotland's economy? Can we continue to fund the lifestyles of the Islands? And what about all these ambitious projects - bridges, trams, railways - huge sums of money.

If SNP do get in to power, and it works - great! If it doesn't, look around at what you would loose if it all goes wrong. Scotland is going through a prosperous period at the moment - and that's under a Labour Government. Labour was voted in because the public had lost faith in the Conservatives; now that same public has a similar distrust of Labour. So what makes you think that SNP will be any better in a couple of years?

This is one big experiment and no one knows how it will end - we have a lot to loose if it goes wrong.

112

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 08:12:06

lots of snp financial experts here,im amazed yer not all professors.....NUFF SAID

113

jim lad,

the capital 08/04/2007 08:14:52

You didn't have to be Mystic Megg to predict the reaction from the Nats over this headline. Only the people bothering to vote on 3rd May will prove who is right and who is wrong and i for one will accept the will of the electorate can't say fairer than that.

114

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 08:18:00

FIMO,if the snp win power ,we will all be paying a heavy price,the price is too high,EGO"S will have to be paid for

115

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 08:19:01

#129 Kafflick Gorge

Better than a "visiting" professor - a token gesture to someone of low standing whose contacts might be useful to a university ...

LA

116

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 08:22:04

#131 Kafflik Gorge

"Ego"s will have to be paid for" (sic)

What kind of grammar is that? Is it a new make of chocolate Easter Egg?

LA

117

puskas,

Ek 08/04/2007 08:33:11

Hopefully come 3rd may the backing the SNP is getting in all internet newspapers comments pages spreads across Scotland,

No further debate necessary... The rogues gallery in government needs to be changed drastically in Edinburgh. From First Minister and throughout the ranks of this impoverished Nu Labour ( unionists/Tory's ) party.

I haven't came to a conclusion yet on whether the Bliarites, Brownites embarress Joke McConnell more than he does them..

Vote Snp 3rdMay

118

,

08/04/2007 08:33:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
119

Le Drapeau Noir,

Gorgie Road 08/04/2007 08:46:34

Yet to meet anyone from Labour new or old who had a handle on even the most basic principles of economics .Jack the lad being a shining example.
As for the Lanarkshire mafia style running of public finances is Midwinter advocating we should accept more of the same???Aye right.. bolt ya bam!!!

120

james 1st,

nz 08/04/2007 08:46:52

have labour all along not been saying the finance black hole was 13 to 14 billion pounds

121

de bono,

08/04/2007 08:52:02

Within the union Scotland has repeatedly had the worst social deprivation indicators in Europe - child poverty most notably.

We are supposed to be part of the 4th biggest economy in the world.

The Clyde is full of nuclear weapons. Why should we put up with this?

We take part in illegal and irresponsible wars with young men and women recruited from poor communities.

Our political leader - TB - is a patent liar who cannot be trusted.

Other small European countries thrive in comparison with Scotland. There would be challenges - maintaining the trust of the business community and our ageing population for example, but with the right policies, Scotland is capable of being a healthy, thriving, dynamic, prosperous and more ethical country than it is now.

Vote SNP and then we can have a referendum on independence - then we look at the benefits and risks properly - not waste time reading what this publication has insulted our intelligence with - the pretence that this is credible and the cheap headline.

IT's TIME FOR A REFERENDUM.

122

Boab,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 08:52:23

I thought that headlines usually referred to an actual news article?

Alternative headlines:

'Powerful media group proclaims: "SNP is not fit to govern"'

'Newspaper editor finds new scaremonger'

or just:

'Don't vote SNP! Please?'

123

Pinklady,

Dundee 08/04/2007 08:52:45

At last the SNP's spending plans are slowly but surely beginning to come under sruitiny, at last people are beginning to see that they clearly do not add up. Its time the SNP were honest with the people of Scotland as to how much independance would actually cost.

124

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 08:56:06

Surprise, surprise! No actually no sisprises here - the Sad Numpty People (SNP) obviously have never had a clue and never will!

125

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 08:56:12

#142

One pound thirty pence.

LA

126

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 08:57:52

de bono
Bring a referendum on and put paid to this stupid notion that the people of Scotland want independence! There is not a chance!

127

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 08:58:27

#143

Bermuda Triangle says, "Sisiprizes: Numpty Pumpty piddle and die."

(At least i think that's what he said.)

LA

128

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 08:59:36

#145

Bermuda Triangle says, "Please, God, let there be no chance the SNP get in or I will look a total numpty."

LA

129

Cam3,

Scotland 08/04/2007 08:59:36

Letter to the Scotsman.

'..As a regular 'Scotsman' reader, I'd like to state my disgust at the manner in which the paper has decided to cover the parliamentary elections in Scotland. Whereas I had a genuine amount of praise with regards the editorial range and impartial control of the paper, it seems - as we approach the Scottish parliamentary election in May - that the editor has decided to embrace what is clearly an anti-nationalist stance through the paper's coverage.

Time after time key stories are missed or mentioned as an asides deep within other [negative, largely pro-unionist] stories. As a voter who's not yet decided where to throw his mark, the broadsheets in Scotland seem to want to make little of a fairly massive public turnaround - for the first time, with any clarity, large swathes of the country seem to be opting towards the SNP.

To have so many polls consistently report this, is an extraordinary event. As a media graduate, there's simply no getting away from the the fact that this seems to have caused a great many publications to look to their unionist laurels and embrace any opportunity to put *any* kind of negative slant on the voting behaviour. For example - http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=757&id=539472007 - how can an article which draws in both sides of the argument have such a one sided and misleading headline?

I had certainly expected this from the London/Glasgow tabloids, I had even expected it from some broadsheets - I didn't expect it from the Scotsman.

This article appears to have been the straw that broke the camels back - for myself, for many a media student I've talked to - and I feel you've went a large way to convince me and my colleagues that, while it is possibly now wise to choose our daily editorial a little more carefully - it is certainly, perhaps, time to opt for a party that *doesn't* appar

130

Sedov,

Scotland 08/04/2007 08:59:52

Lets hope the majority of Scottish people wake up to the imcompetence of the SNP before its too late. For ex Labour supporters sickened by New Labour - please abstain rather than vote for the SNP.

131

Boab,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 09:04:22

#128 It's true, Labour have created jobs. I feel that housing prices are likely to cause a crash, though. Apart from this Gordo hasn't done badly but Scotland still lags behind the rest of Europe as far as poverty and low life expectancy goes; all in all, she has more to gain than lose. We can't be the 'sick man of Europe' forever!

Oops, mixed Scotland's gender there!

132

fimo,

08/04/2007 09:04:40

Pink Lady - I agree. There are too many folk out there with rose tinted glasses, and all they see is a dream. If it goes wrong, the dream could become a nightmare.

If you live on the Islands and the Highlands, think long and hard before you vote SNP - and ask yourself 'will the money extend this far?' (or will it be used to keep the central belt alive?).

133

Boab,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 09:05:08

The only reason they quoted this professor is that he's so much more photogenic than Angry Jack!

134

Andrew Mc,

08/04/2007 09:05:38

Tomorrow's headline the SNP will eat your children or open up a firey gate to hell.

Perhaps the Scotsman should just come out and say "we love the Tories/Labour party"

To be fair to the SNP, it is the only party to have actually put the cost of everything down on paper. I like to add with the Labour Party council tax is risen by 60%, billions spent on the war in Iraq, £25-70 billion on a generation of new nuclear weapons, higher than expected costs for the olympic games, the Scottish Parliament nonsense, NHS computing system and of course if Labour get in after the next general election, we all have to pay for ID cards. Forgot to mention Brown and the pensions as well.

Just over the last 20 years of politics in Scotland, we need a positive change. For me, it's the SNP. :)

135

Callum,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 09:08:01

Is this a other Labour man trying to put fear into the Scottish People about SNP.
The Manjority of the Scottish people think we need a new Government.
The SNP will take Scotland forward not holding Scotlad back.

Vote SNP in May

136

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:09:25

#149 - 151

Sedov, Fimo, are you two related? One talks of a dream, the other of waking up. Which is it to be?

LA

137

Encephalon,

08/04/2007 09:11:20

Another Labour party crony with vested interests peddling yet another scare story.

Anyone who has studied economics will confirm that although it is described as a social science it is highly subjective-much more political opinion than "science".

Further indication of just how desperate Labour is. Keep up the good work Scotland-get rid of these charlatans who have misruled us for the past two generations and given us what exactly?

Answers on a postcard to Soon to be Ex-First Minister Joke McConnell!

138

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 09:12:37

The English papers are covering this election much better.

Wake up Scotsman/SOS

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest...

139

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:14:46

hey LA....ARE YOU ANOTHER UNEDUCATED NAT SORRY PRAT THAT SPOUTS RUBBISH ON SCOTLANDS FUTURE FROM ABROAD

140

Advance Alba,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 09:15:37

The Scotsman has learnt well how to bury bad news from their political paymasters. Wrap it up with some lickspittle visiting professor (note the visiting) guff and assertion and opinion. There is a serious need in Scotland for a pro-inependence e-newspaper, since both the other biggies are staunchly pro-labour/unionist. Anyone interested in setting one up with me?
In the meantime, foucus on May 3, and note the REAL story here - SNP is thrashing Labour. Peaking too early? Who says they've peaked?
May 3
Vote SNP
Advance Alba!

141

Brianwci,

www.edinburghtechniques.co.uk 08/04/2007 09:16:19

They who can do and those who can't teach is the old saying.

One of the cants is Prof Midwinter. Are we going to believe him or Mr Mathewson who built the Royal Bank of Scotland up to the 5th largest bank in the world?

I think the do-er has more experience of real economics than the academic and the do-er supports Independence. Enough said, It's Time.

142

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 09:18:55

149 - Sedov

You're beginning to lose what credibility you had. Don't vote? - spoken like a true democrat.

A resounding victory could shake the labour party to it's roots. Who knows, with Broon and Bliar totally discredited, you may even have John 4 Leader! Or would you be happier with Millibland?

143

Stewart H,

Dundee 08/04/2007 09:19:35

Is this the same Arthur Midwinter who gave the Scottish executive a copy of an unpublished paper that was highly critical of the executive and exposed an accounting error and gave them tips in how to challenge this paper.

Sounds pretty impartial to me.

144

Cam3,

Scotland 08/04/2007 09:19:58

'If you live on the Islands and the Highlands, think long and hard before you vote SNP - and ask yourself 'will the money extend this far?' (or will it be used to keep the central belt alive?).'

Or - better still - ask yourself:

'Will my waters still be open to marauding and dangerous Nuclear submarines on patrol, will house prices be rendered out-of-reach to all but impending British interests, will I still be involved in arguments where I have to actually defend my primary school's right to speak Gaelic...'

Or will I give it a shot and see what happens when politicians actually focus on Scotland - and Scotland solely - amongst the nations of Europe.

Fimo - FYI - people are living a nightmare *now*. Unless you think the poverty, deprivation and huge social problems [that New Labour have failed to tackle, completely] are another nationalist figment?

At the very least, I'd say this to all Scots - historically we have been a very outgoing people, we've tried new things, we've grown, we've experimented. Are we now so bereft of spirit that we cannot try this greatest of experiments?

I think we're capable - hundreds of thousands do - and refuse to be scared by negative scaremongers - who herald *no change* whatsoever - nothing - not a bit - not a single change - just onward watching New Labour and the Tories tug each others beards for another four years while our country remains voiceless in Europe and the world.

Let's give it a shot!! I have a hunch unionists are merely terrified how capable the people of Scotland actually are...

145

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 09:20:43

161 - Oops - That is of course "a resounding SNP victory"

146

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 08/04/2007 09:21:38

I can't believe it The SNP have made a miscalculation. This has changed everything I don't think they are voteable based on this heinous crime.

Aye right. labour don't miscalculate they downright lie , scheme and destroy everything they touch. The people of Scotland will decide and stupid pathetic stories like this only serve to harden our resolve to get rid of their sorry asses.

147

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:24:54

#158 Kafflik Gorge

Yes, it is true.

I am "someone who spouts rubbish from abroad." To you that will be Edinburgh. But I am modest enough not to use capital letters, unlike yourself.

LA

148

BenDover,

08/04/2007 09:26:08

I wouldn't worry too much about what the Uncle Tom's @ SOS write, nobody buys it anyway. I would be more concerned when the Daily Retard starts feeding the Labour voting untermenschen stories about their giros getting cut or losing their non jobs in the council.

149

Cam3,

Scotland 08/04/2007 09:30:02

#166 [Jennifer, she said!]

What an amazing retort Jennifer ;o)

Truly.

Think you're suffering from a lack of an argument, perhaps?

Granted - there's no New Labour negative vibe painting the world black and lowering the aspirations of their countrymen - other than that - I guess you're gonna have to put your intimidating literal skills to the fore and tell me - and others - *why* it's *****?

150

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:30:16

BANNANA HEID you got tunnel vision...any brain matter inside yer yellow banana shaped heid..stop talking rot

151

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:32:14

dont make any sense to me LA/LOS ANGELES is that near edinburgh

152

Pilrig,

Livingston 08/04/2007 09:32:21

Kafflik George - surely you should be tuning in for Urbi et Orbi, and not spouting nonsense ?

Anyway, happy Easter Sunday everyone, even the very Lab Prof Midwinter !

153

Black Hound,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 09:32:34

Is there is a £13bn hole in Scotland's economy?

If Yes, is this a good reason to let Lab/Lib back in?

If No, do we want the same liars back in?

Time for a healthier, wealthier Scotland.

It's time for the SNP.

154

Sedov,

Scotland 08/04/2007 09:32:56

#161 Bill. Thanks for this opportunity to promote my choice as a candidate for the Labour Party leadership, John McDonnel. Although John will not win the fact that he is gaining more and more support in the rank and file of the party and the trade unions means that the LP is at last starting to turn to the left. It will take time but change is coming. Try www.john4leader, Bill. PS I will not be abstaining but voting for Labour, who despite everything are still very popular. But the SNP? They are having a laugh surely?

155

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:33:40

#171

For the unwary - Kafflik George is unable to communicate in anything other than low insult. But don't blame him. It's the way he's written.

LA

156

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:35:29

#172

Kafflik George -

How do you keep an idiot in suspense?

..............................................

I'll tell you tomorrow.

LOL

LA

157

Encephalon,

08/04/2007 09:36:56

#160 "They who can do and those who can't teach is the old saying.

One of the cants is Prof Midwinter. Are we going to believe him or Mr Mathewson who built the Royal Bank of Scotland up to the 5th largest bank in the world?"

I take it you believe he is a real "cant"!

158

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:38:20

#173

AM - you're back, shameless and lame as ever.

Thank you for telling us David Simpson has been an SNP supporter for over "40 years." That will make him something of an expert on their policies and worth a listen.

LA

159

Boab,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 09:39:08

#157 Ta for the link, Bill:

'With the SNP ahead in 10 successive opinion polls and only 25 days to go until the election, panic has clearly set in among Labour’s heavyweights.'

Even the Murdoch papers know that the game's up!

160

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:40:36

yer funny LA but the jokes on you

161

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:43:05

for message 117....all true scotsmen and women should vote for the party that will do well for the country..LABOUR

162

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:43:34

#182

You'd better be nice to me, Kafflik George. I may be the one who chooses your rest home.

LA

163

James Annand,

08/04/2007 09:44:09

This is getting ridiculous. I'm seriously considering picketing the Scotsmans office in Edinburgh.


How they have the cheek to call this news, I'll never know. We all know Midwinter is a sham, and they give him the headline when the SNP are way ahead in the poll they printed in a small paragraph in the article. Then have a rebuttal from a real economist to this.


I'm getting sick and tired of this.

164

Black Hound,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 09:44:46

#176 Sedov

You are going to vote Labour? So you want ID Cards, you want road pricing (and the ability to track your movements by car at any time), you want to spend £28bn on Trident replacement, you support the war on Iraq, you support dawn raids on asylum seekers and want wee Joke to continue as First Minister.

Well, it's a democracy and you can vote that way if you want. I will not be following you!

165

Iain green,

East Lothian 08/04/2007 09:44:48

Prof Midwinter's views are well known.
Whilst attempting to posture as an impartial analyst, he belies this with the use of personal attacks and politically motivated language.
His intercession at this point speaks more of Labour desperation than of an attempt to debate.
An individual of his stature owes the Scottish public much more than intemperate ranting.

166

Boab,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 09:45:08

#180 "AM2? You get out of your bed and start posting comments this instant. It's been left to CATHOLIC GEORGE to defend the Union! We don't want voters getting confused ..."

167

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:49:22

whats wrong with being a patriot

168

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:50:47

#188

Boab

Kafflik George thinks folk spout rubbish from abroad. Is he asking we come to Scotland and spout it?

LA

169

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:51:41

hey LA it sounds if yer already installed in a rest home....for the insane

170

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:51:52

#189

If you love your country, Kafflik George, you'd leave it immediately and let peace prosper.

LA

171

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:53:23

Amazing how easy it is to draw out the jerks and confirm they have no politics at all.

172

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:53:25

la thought ye where already in scotland spouting it

173

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:54:24

193 you took the words right out off my mouth ...thanks

174

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:55:20

#194

That's one hellish education you've had - and you're telling us you are voting for the same again?

LA

175

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 09:55:21

176 - Sedov

Despite Iraq, despite Trident, despite compulsory ID cards, despite tracking every move you make in your car, despite the lies, despite Bliar being certifiably mad, despite Broon being nearly as bad, despite ALL of these and many other things - you'll be voting New Labour? And asking others who were traditional Old Labour supporters, who WON'T vote New Labour again to abstain.

For all your egalitarian postings, which earned you some respect, I could have accepted you voting SSP or for Tommy's mob. But not New Labour.

Both my grandfathers were miners and true socialists - they'll be fair birlin' in their graves.

And yes, the SNP WILL be having a laugh - on May 4!

176

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:56:13

192 i got to admire yer sense of humour...dont beleive in the snp rubbish but ye put a smile ta ma face

177

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:56:46

Kafflick George, vote Labour, then go to the window, look up, and smile for a satellite picture.

LA

178

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:57:55

yer a funny guy LA pity were on opposite camps

179

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 09:59:06

199 LOL in your case LA candid camera

180

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 09:59:09

#201

Kafflik George

I can see you were spanked a lot by your teacher - stuff you pay good money for later in life.

LA

181

callmedave,

fife 08/04/2007 10:00:02

So, another anti SNP rant from our 'quality Sunday newspaper'
Can someone tell me who owns this rag ?
Has it been bought over recently ? I used to think it was a fair and independent newspaper.

182

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 08/04/2007 10:02:59

OVER 500 NEWS ITEMS ON THE NEW LABOUR NIGHTMARE PROJECT

Read today - Gordon Brown's guide to screwing as much out of the system as you can (writeen when a student) - complete with picture!

See Brown in his favourite outfit - his ENGLAND strip

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk
updated three times daily

183

Mario Antoinette aka lots of things,

08/04/2007 10:03:13

Looks like Labour have been so bad that they are forcing you into voting for a tax cutting nationalist party (see.. HISTORY) that will not be able to keep it's promises.

Oh dear. Rock and a hard place. Go easy on those immigrants folks and the dark shirts.

184

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:03:25

hey LA yer beating me hands down i aint gonna trade insults wit you ...but i do have a measure of pity for poor blinkered souls like yerself

185

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 10:03:57

186 - Blackhound

That's what I get for spending more than 10 minutes composing a post! Sorry! ;)

Best with the short, sharp, witty ones, n'est pas?

186

Boab,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 10:04:06

#202/203 I just gave yer Maw a snappy comeback.

187

abcd,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 10:04:24

The SNP were quite happy to accept Midwinter as an expert when he was criticising the Executive:
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=867&id=187317...

And on the points of substance, there seem to me to be two main points.

Firstly, are the efficiency savings the SNP are setting out reasonable? Prof Simpson says yes, because the Exec has delivered similar already. But am I not right in thinking that the SNP has questioned whether these are real? If so, then it can't be a reliable guide for future performance.

Secondly, can we expect the UK government to hand over the council tax benefit money? Prof Simpson says that the Northern Ireland example is instructive - why? In that case the UK govt had an interest in being (more than) generous. Why on earth would they be helpful in any way to an SNP led Executive? Obviously it would be wrong of them to be bloody minded but denying the reality that that's likely to be the case is nuts.

188

Mario Antoinette aka lots of things,

08/04/2007 10:05:11

204 . The Scotsman has always been a gloomy conservative sub daily mail type rag for a small parochial readership.

I would never dream of buying it.

The Independent is the only decent newspaper in Britian that doesnt feed you party lines.

189

Cam3,

Scotland 08/04/2007 10:05:12

Jennifer

Get yourself a new crayon then?

Still waiting on you POV - ya know - politics, Scotland and all....???

190

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 10:05:19

#207

Ach, man, you can keep your pity. Soon as I take it labour will tax it.

LA

191

Miss Jean Brodie,

08/04/2007 10:05:27

Next we’ll be told that a majority vote for one party actually gets another party elected - ha ha ha

Money money money !

So that’s why labour are so good at governing - cause all they care about is money and not people - well IT’S TIME to focus on the people and sort the financial situation out later.

Prof Midwinter - Another expert in a grey suit! WITH A GREY POINT OF VIEW !

192

Dennis,

North Isles 08/04/2007 10:05:42

It's good to see the SNP promises coming under proper scrutiny. They seen detemined to try out a 1970's style socialist agenda, of spending first then leaving a huge hole which will require tax hikes (on those who are working) followed by a crash programme of cuts.

They are doing the classic 'wannabe' thing of promising good things for everyone whilst hoping that people won't look too hard at the maths behind their accounting.

The trouble is that it will be hard working people in Scotland who will be left paying the bill for failure.

Deflate the hugely bloated public sector in Scotland and encourage innovation and private enterprise. Discourage the dependency culture. That would set things up for moves to be more independent in the future, when we could move ahead in growth.

193

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:07:00

as will snp

194

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 10:08:19

#215

Dennis

Quite right. The SNP should be scrutised with an intense scrute.

LA

195

morris,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 10:08:24

1

The problem with your statement is he is one proffessor amongst many in relative disciplines who not only agree with the SNP, but are members of it! Even a single one would counterbalance Midwinter!

Fraser of Allander reports year after year plus McCRone are not going to disappear because a visiting professor known to be a Labour member and former councillor has opened his gob saying exactly the same as he has always said(Ive heard this from him on at least ten occasions now).
The problem with you is you believe what you want to believe,and fail to realise nothing of the Unionists s claims will stand up to close scrutiny!
Its all opinion and lies,or are you so stupid you believe everything because Labour say it is so?
Scotlands leading expert? Since when?
This man has no credibility amongst his fellow academics and has destroyed what little did exist in outside circles a long time ago.
He is only one opinion,and a biased one at that.
You jump on this and just prove how desperate and indeed foolish the Labour Party are.
There a fantasy world for sure, and you live in it!

196

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:08:49

210 ah think someone should tell the snp supporters you cant have your cake and eat it ....hypocrites springs to mind

197

SEUMAS,

tain 08/04/2007 10:11:50

I have never bought the "SCOTSMAN) a bit of a misnomer here but read it on the net for amusement if nothing else. I am not a member of the S.N.P. but reading most of the comments, I think the SN.P. come out on top, which seems to agree with the "recognised" poll merchants.
Lets hope that many more people read the evidence for the other arguments against the bias of the "Scotsman".
Finally, my thanks to the "Scotsman for providing a platform for people to air theur views--long live democracy!!!

198

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 10:12:24

#219

AM - have you any idea how turgid and constipated those facts read visually? What am I expected to do, repeat them verbatim?

LA

199

,

08/04/2007 10:15:43
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200

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:16:14

new name for the snp LA how about confused.com or dumb and dumber.com

201

Boab,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 10:16:21

#210 true, abcd, SNP government will consist of years of wrangling. I'm still voting for them!

#215 well said, Dennis, some realistic speculation rather than slinging numbers around. Greater independence in a political sense = less dependency. I'm still going to draw the SNP conclusion from this, tho!

202

_John_,

08/04/2007 10:20:06

>>>>>>>>>>An uncosted wishlist<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>>>>>>>>>>A £1,800 Million hole in their budget<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Only Scots could ever contemplate electing these cowboys.

203

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 10:20:55

#224

Kafflik George

I just know you have learned only recently how to use a computer keyboard only you can't get the Snowpake off the screen.

LA

204

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:21:24

223 famous ...you dont make sense ,what you mean

205

Mario Antoinette aka lots of things,

08/04/2007 10:22:23

This Newspaper supports Unionism. It can and it will haul out as many naysayers about the SNP as it wants . Wont make much difference.

The vast majority of traditional Labour supporters dont read the scotsman.


Dont waste your fingers typing.

206

Boab,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 10:23:44

#224 CATHOLIC GEORGE. An oxymoron?

207

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 10:24:13

#230

AM - you're a psuedo debater. I thought you understood you were outed. You are incapable of talking about joy, happiness, well-being, or pleasure, you know, human qualities. You are a cold cut and paste waste of time.

LA

208

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 10:24:57

#233

I'm not sure about "Oxy."

LA

209

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:25:25

yes LA ,but this time youve lost me,cant compete with a keyboard wizard

210

Cam3,

Scotland 08/04/2007 10:26:29

LA/Catholic George - wheesht the pair of ye.

Your last thirty-odd posts have clouded the on-topic mailings. Save the volleys for *after* the elections lads, and the long-deserved SNP victory...

...who's joining me in London to see 'No Mandate' Brown explaining why he should still be a 'UK' prime minister after the 3rd?

I'll bring the popcorn.

211

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:27:35

232 im a labour man i read the scotsman

212

saltire.1,

moray 08/04/2007 10:27:40

its time for the snp

213

Who's Adam Smith?,

Fife 08/04/2007 10:28:14

AM2 Why do you not agree with the last part of the paragraph written, below?

"Only one human species exists today, and the physical differences, such as skin colour, by which human types are classified, are of only trivial significance, although for social and political reasons they are sometimes given a spurious importance. All human groups or ‘races’ include individuals of a wide range of ability and social worth; there is no justification for saying that one group is innately inferior to another, and the social achievements of each group depend largely on the natural resources and amenities available. Theories of inferiority or criminality of particular sections often arise from the political needs of a dominant group, such as foreign conquerors or employers of cheap labour. Much ability is wasted and injustice caused by the inferior position which colonial peoples occupy. Similar waste and injustice occur where there are large underprivileged classes of poor people."

Taken from The Human Species written by Anthony Barnett
Vote SNP on May 3rd

214

LA,

Los Angeles 08/04/2007 10:29:10

Okay, Cam - I was just about to sign off anyway. It 3am here.

But you can keep the popcorn. That'll not feed the masses.

LA

215

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:29:58

cam3....dream on

216

Ronnie Ray,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:31:01

fimo# 151...why dont you move to england?....sitting there taking the crumbs off englands table.......FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE...get a grip stop being so negative about scotland.....or are you english?

217

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:31:10

242am2.....well said mate

218

Cam3,

Scotland 08/04/2007 10:32:28

LA nights, indeed. ;O)

Decided - SNP in May...

219

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 08/04/2007 10:32:30

Labour (unionist party HQ London) £25 million in debt
S.N.P (Scotland) HQ Ediburgh £1.5 million in credit

Why does the labour party not employ some of these so called finiancial experts to sort out the labour party fiances.?

220

Sedov,

Scotland 08/04/2007 10:32:47

#197 Bill, Dont get on to me because of the fact- yes the fact, that despite everything Labour is still popular, after all to repeat myself, despite all that you have said the LP are still in with a chance of being the biggest party in Scotland. What does that tell you? When we are in any organisation that has turned its back on you- do we just leave and let them do what they want and get away with it? - thats the cowardice of those so called socialists in the SSP and solidarity who do not represent their class, only themselves. Whats the point of being a purist outside the movement? In the past ,The Labour Party of the one you talk about has been responsible for many anti -working class actions especially in 1926 against the miners, but did your grandfather, or my own grandfather, also a miner desert them - no they fought back against traitors and as a result we had the formation of the NHS and other reforms on behalf of working people. I do not like whats going on with my team, Hearts at the present time, or the fishing club, or my trade union - but I stand my corner and fight against them within the organisation as I have more chance of being heard. Better to be in the pen trying to change than outside crowing- and things will change - so be like me stick with it. By the way- the major trade unions understand my point and have not disaffiliated with the LP and they are the key to to change as they still have influence and will have into the future.

221

IainGlasgow,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 10:32:49

Two starkly contrasting views from academic economists but no surprise which one gets the headline in the unionist media.

222

plord,

edinburgh 08/04/2007 10:33:30

no comment on the fact that midwinter will get no more work from a friendly executive if snp win.
sounds like he wants to stau on the gravy train

223

Hamilton West & Earnock,

Hamilton South 08/04/2007 10:33:30

CATHOLIC GEORGE

I think its about time you had a look back over some of the successes of your labour party -
- £110 000 000 000 to be spent on replacing trident, when 25% of Scots children are living in poverty
- £15 000 000 000 to be spent on london 2012 for the benefit of the london economy - all our charities will suffer as a result of the reduction in lottery cash,
- Our troops being killed in action and over £8 000 000 000 spent so far on an illegal american oil war,
- on-going cash for honours investigation,
- changing tax laws for pensions to remove £billions from the man in the street,
- and this is only a small selection of the downright criminal acts perpetrated by your party.

George - i'm sure your very pleased at what your labour party have done. Now please get your jacket on your rubber room is ready...........


ITS "almost" TIME

224

Who's Adam Smith?,

Fife 08/04/2007 10:42:06

AM2 thats not off topic since it may explain why mr winter chooses to mislead us ie "political needs of a dominant group"

225

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 10:45:56

#104

Ex-RBS Chairman. Known to be a supporter of the SNP for years. I don't see the current RBS executive giving such support.

However a poll of the top 500 firms showed a massive majority are against independence.

226

Jonboy,

08/04/2007 10:46:02

At least some of the posters on here have heard of this guy...

I must confess Midwinter is not a household name in the Jonboy household....

227

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:46:20

251 where did you pluck these figures from....sorry if you feel insulted but get real,get a life take yer blinkers off,its not about braveheart,freedom an the other bull its whats best for scotland and it dont help you throwing imaginary figures about and fer your information scotkland gets more money spent per head of pop than any other part of britain...put that in yer pipe an smoke it

228

McKenzie,

preston 08/04/2007 10:47:47

cam3

you are so right, I cant believe the press in scotland it has absolutly no balanced view when it comes to the snp the daily record stands out I think scots must buy it for the sports pages because you would need to have a brain the size of a pea to swallow the vitriol they print in the political pages regarding the snp. I think its time for and truly scottish launch of an independant paper in scotland.

229

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:48:55

cam3 off to bed then

230

,

08/04/2007 10:49:29
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231

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:52:37

hey famous yer a mind reader now,yer in danger of becoming infamous

232

Carlo,

Fort William 08/04/2007 10:53:54

#254 source of this poll please!!.....the one in which "the top 500" have all given their views?????

233

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 10:54:23

259 get another job that boiler is overheating and its effecting rational thinking

234

Malachi Malagrowther,

08/04/2007 10:55:33

To all those SNP activists and door-knockers who read and post here:

As someone who remembers the bitter disappointment of 1979, this is the moment I have waited for all my life. They stole that one from us and we lost a generation of nation-building while we endured government after government that we didn’t vote for, lie upon lie about our inability to rule ourselves and the systematic stripping of our natural resources as our wealth was squandered.

For thirty years we have watched the City of London float on a sea of oil money that was rightly ours. Independent Norway has a different story to tell. With the same population, they now have a £200billion+ future fund (and growing) – bigger than the largest pension fund in America – put aside for future generations, while we debate with sell-out Scottish traitors in London about whether or not we could go it alone. What a joke.

Now we have another chance, the best one we have had in 300 years. If we miss this chance, it might be twenty years before we get another one, if ever, and many of us will not live to see the Scottish nation reborn.

Posting here isn’t going to change a thing. All you are doing is agreeing with each other or butting heads with diehard Unionists defending their own vested interests. Start knocking on those doors you’ve been avoiding. Work on those swing voters.

Do whatever it takes to get this over the line.

Scotland will forever be in your debt.

235

Statsman,

08/04/2007 10:57:28

I wouldn't even buy a used car from someone that looked like that.

237

ayrshie,

ayrshie@aol.com 08/04/2007 10:58:18

This guy sounds like a political plant by the labour party . I have voted labour all my life and seen since Blair came to power with his extention of Thatchers method of politics things in Scotland have deteriorated . Look at the industry around you. Now is the time to vote for the SNP as Scotland is a rich country and believe in ourselves as the English Government are trembling in their shoes at the thought of losing Scotland and all her wealth.. If what we are led to believe about the English subsidising us is true then they should only be too glad to get rid of us. But , Scotland is and has been the lifeline to this rotting UK to the detriment of our own people. Scotland and our people deserve and can achieve great things for our Country through the Scottish national Party. And I for one want to see my granchildren brought up in a Scotland that is not politicaly corrupt and where morals and honesty become the norm. there is only one vote in this election and that has to be for your children and grandchildren and that vote is for a free Scotland. Now is the time my friends. !!!!

238

robert SHIVAGO,

livingston 08/04/2007 11:02:00

They say that professor,s verge on going over the edge ie going round the twist.This one certainly is, and i am assuming that he is not a scotsman.If he is he should be tried for treason and run out of scotland.We are a proud country mr midwinter and we dont need the likes of you telling us what we can and cant do.Go away and strutt your stuff in some banana republic that is the standard of your material.You obviously stand to lose something if we do go it on our own if that is the case roll on independence and lets roll you out of our proud country.WE DO NOT NEED THE LIKES OF YOU,GO AWAY

239

Rickie,

Fife 08/04/2007 11:05:58

An ex maths teacher as First Minister, who can't count, a chancellor who might be able to count but doesn't show it, an expert with all the answers (NOT!) where are they when solutions, not critisism, are needed?

Nowhere, along with all the ones who think it's alright to hit out and provide no solutions themselves.

Good to see the socialist democratic process at it's finest.

When a party makes it's proposals public it's to be applauded (and if you like helped to be fulfilled) - unlike the last 10 years of the mushroom syndrome.

240

,

08/04/2007 11:06:19
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241

Nurse,

08/04/2007 11:07:24

Wasnt this a familiar pre election jibe I recall John Major saying the same of Gordon Brown in 1997.
Also I would nt trust the so called professor to call bingo numbers, as he is probably waiting for some sort of bung from the labour cronnies who are shaking in fear of Alex Salmond, bring on May third.

242

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 08/04/2007 11:10:48

# 254 Name 10 of the 500. Or are your figures like the Scotsman and their " an unnamed source" said.

243

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 11:11:13

271 john itake it your supporting snp

244

_John_,

on this bright Easter morn 08/04/2007 11:14:42

275

I'm supporting my wife & family, Sir, and on this bright Easter morn, I'm fondly remembering particular heroes of mine who fought hard to rid their land of cruel oppressors.

God Bless The Boys of the Old Brigade.

245

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 11:14:53

#274

RBS, Standard Life, HBOS, Scottish Power, Scottish & Newcastle, Scottish Widows, AEGON UK, Scottish & Southern Energy, Abbey Scotland, First Group

246

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 11:16:20

The Poll was conducted by Scotland's Top Business Magazine, The Insider... www.insider.co.uk

247

Sedov,

Scotland 08/04/2007 11:21:06

#271 - Great John, and lets raise a glass to the rising and James Connolly that great Edinburgh internationalist and socialist.

248

Jonboy,

08/04/2007 11:21:31

From the Herald.....

I am rather bemused by the coverage in The Scotsman and other newspapers describing Professor Arthur Midwinter as an "economist" and leading "expert", who has debunked the economic case for an independent Scotland. My understanding is that Prof Midwinter has a background in political science, indeed is a former professor of politics and a specialist in local government finance.

It is, therefore, perhaps a step too far to saddle him with the label "economist", let alone describe him as an "expert" in the field. And, in fairness, I cannot recall him ever describing himself as an economist.

If it is wished to have a mature debate on the economics of independence, I would sooner put weight on the opinion of Professor David Simpson, a qualified and highly experienced economist of the highest calibre, who cogently argued the economic case for independence in another newspaper this week.

For what it is worth, I am pleased to second Professor Simpson's opinion that the economic arguments favour independence for Scotland.

If we are taking a tally of professional economists' opinion, so far that makes two for and none against.

(PROF) NEIL KAY, Department of Economics, University of Strathclyde, Glasgow

249

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 11:24:25

AM2

It doesn't matter, that Poll is something they can't ignore.

250

Jim P,

08/04/2007 11:24:26

#268 etc, etc
AM2,
You forgot to include the first sentence of the article, so I'll help you out - "More than a third of Scottish business leaders wish for Conservative Party control of Holyrood"!
Jim P

251

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 11:27:57

#285

That still doesn't diminish the fact that 79% of them are against independence.

252

Carlo,

Fort William 08/04/2007 11:29:37

#268 MJD

"MORE than a third of Scottish business leaders wish for Conservative Party control of Holyrood, according to a survey by Scottish Business Insider magazine".......forgot to mention that one didn't you!!!!!

If one third of business leaders want a Tory government surely that shows how out of step they are with the Scottish electorate....!!!!

Also, I can bet my bottom dollar that not more than 60% actually replied....I cannot verify this though as the link to the insider magazine says its under new construction.......its a loaded poll anyone can pick and choose to support any argument....the only poll that matters a damn is on May 3rd

253

_John_,

on this bright Easter morn 08/04/2007 11:32:43

Sedov 281

Aye, God Bless them all.

They fought the terrorists in Ireland.

254

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 08/04/2007 11:45:26

TODAY'S NEWS ON www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk

SNP 12 point lead sparks Scottish poll crisis for Labour

Secret paper reveals Labour's lies over ID cards

Nurses' leader: Blair's spin ruining NHS

SNP boosted by Blair's visit

Majority in British poll say Brown unfit to lead

Britain delivers damning verdict on Blair's 10 years

How to scrounge off the State, by Gordon Brown

Revealed: How Gordon Brown has cost you £100,000

Polls Bring More Bad News for Gordon Brown

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk

plus see Gordon Brown in his ENGLAND strip

255

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 11:46:38

276 am2 just more racist bile from 269 aint got a clue well said AM2

256

Richard,

west lothian 08/04/2007 11:47:27

AM2, Glasgow


Good news on the latest poll don't you think?

S.N.P. 40%

LABOUR 28%

:-)

257

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 11:49:19

HEY JEFF 292 whats wrong with wearing an england strip for that matter a wales or nothern ireland strip

258

Upbeat,

08/04/2007 11:52:45

285 Jim P

"More than a third of Scottish business leaders wish for Conservative Party control of Holyrood"!

It is interesting that you should point this out.

If this really is the opinion of 33% of the managers who are currently responsible for the employment of huge numbers of people in Scotland. It is a very important group opinion.

Is their viewpoint sensible, have they thought the matter through ? I should think they have ...

Would Scotland's industrial base do even better ..be even more successful....? without the individual level of commintment from these experienced and qualified Managers ? this is very doubtful ;-)

259

cataibh,

Ach yur seen it 08/04/2007 11:55:33

# 280 You are struggling For instance About two weeks ago The Glasgow Herald asked Standard Life for their views on independence and Standard Life said that they remained neutral. This was after claims by the unionists that Standard Life was opposed to independence.
If as you state the CEO's or MD's are not mentioned then who spoke for these companies?. This is of course be as always "an unnamed source"

260

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 11:56:12

295 richard

good news on the latest betting

SNP 7/2

LABOUR 6/4

261

Who's Adam Smith?,

Fife 08/04/2007 11:57:43

From that latest poll Am2 you’ve failed to gauge the “mood”
PS These posts are about serious debate regarding the future of people living in Scotland; therfore, your flippant remarks and pseudo statistics are not needed.

262

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 12:04:22

am2 WELL SAID,maybe this guy should learn to read and pick up a history book

263

,

08/04/2007 12:05:03
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264

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 12:07:04

your right adam smith your comments are ignored

265

Steve Foley,

England 08/04/2007 12:07:36

In the bleak Midwinter
Frosty wind made moan

The words of Christina Rossetti certainly rung in my mind on reading the headline and report in the Scotsman today.

Just a week has elapsed of the Campaign and it has been most predictable to say the least. Some opening shots from each side, SNP and New Labour, then Trench Warfare as in 1914-18 with both sides dug in and wheeling up their big guns, in this case Labour's Professor Arthur Midwinter (AM1?).

No doubt the SNP will produce an equally lettered Economist or Academic to refute the Prof's attack.

I do hope that the next 4 weeks are not going to be bogged down on who has the best "wrangler"or who's sums add up the better but will be fought on The Question of whether Scotland wishes to grasp control of its own Destiny or remain a vassal province of England with its latter day John Balliol in the shape of Jack Mc Connell.

Professor Midwinter? Outside of his speciality of the "Dismal Science" as Thomas Carlyle very aptly described Economics he will soon be forgotten by the "Scotsman in the Street" until if Labour do hold on after May 3rd we may read in future "Arise Sir Arthur" for services rendered to a grateful Tony, Gordon and Jack?

266

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 12:08:48

It is worrying that the indigenous Conservative Party has rarely been mentioned during the present campaign for the Scottish Parliament Elections! How much further must this Right-of-Centre party fall behind in the polls before someone kicks it into life? It is as if the already battered Tories have a political death wish? What will become of this political party? Indeed, will it have any future after the next parliamentary session at Holyrood?
Lachie Todd.

267

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 12:10:51

#301

A debate is about making opposing arguments. Where in the rule book does it say that you can't use figures, facts and quotations to back up your points?

But hey, if you wanted a debate, maybe you should provide us with an argument?

And in any case, what makes his statistics pseudo? I think AM2 is one of the only people who actually source their numbers and quotations.

268

Upbeat,

08/04/2007 12:16:01

303 ptdoug

If you have been following these boards over the last couple of weeks you will know that is has proved impossible to persuade Neil Kay to respond any further after his initial admssion that his paper contained errors .

He now apparently refuses to speak any further in defence of the paper he co- prepared in support of the SNP fiscal policies., and so fails to address other notable discrepancies that have been shown to exist in this paper.

269

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

glasgow 08/04/2007 12:16:33

307 well put across MJD

270

Richard,

west lothian 08/04/2007 12:18:39

Here's some stats.................Enjoy!


http://www.scottishpolitics.org/scotching/greatdeception....

271

thesmallerhalf,

08/04/2007 12:18:59

I am struck by the propensity of Scottish politicians to play the man and not the ball.

Get 2 Scottish politicians together and they throw the issues out the window and launch into each other with abuse and accusations that have little to do with the issues they were charged to debate. Reading through the opinions expressed here I can see from whence this taste for verbal brawling is derived.

Or is the woeful lack of thoughtful and intelligent comment expressed in this forum a symptom of watching our elected leaders publicly brawling in the gutter? I confess I cannot tell. It is all quite entertaining but bodes ill for the combatants in this forum being able to cast their votes based on any sensible consideration of the issues. But it is said that the voters get the politicians they deserve and so, I am sure will Scotland.

272

,

08/04/2007 12:23:42
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273

historypeople,

edinburgh 08/04/2007 12:26:51

Midwinter has simply committed intellectual suicide in front of his academic peers in this last six weeks.

As I know a good many of them, I can say this with some confidence.

274

Who's Adam Smith?,

Fife 08/04/2007 12:27:03

MJD Pseudo because AM2 is desperately trying to credit accounts that are politically bias and simply do not add up, for his own agenda: obfuscation.

275

Porty Nat,

08/04/2007 12:31:07

When Midwinter's first swipe at the SNP was published back in early February, Peter MacMahon promised us that "Between now and the Holyrood election, he [Midwinter] will be analysing the financial plans of all the main Scottish political parties for The Scotsman.

His piece on the Lib Dems pulled plenty punches, and for some reason appeared buried several pages inside a Saturday edition. As yet, there's been no sign of his promised searing expose on Labour numbers. I wonder why it's only the SNP which seems to be on the end of his politicking thus far?

Still, on the bright side, not everyone at the Scotsman is taken in by the partisanship which Midwinter tries so hard to disguise as objectivity:

http://premium.thescotsman.scotsman.com/comment.cfm?id=23...

276

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 12:33:48

#316

But then, do your nationalist friends not do the same thing? Provide us with politically biased information?

277

jkr,

Lochwinnoch Greater Glasgow 08/04/2007 12:38:07

This election is not about independence, that will come later. What matters is getting Labour and the Lib/Lab Dems out so vote for any other party that will ensure this.

278

Frodo the Scot,

middle earth 08/04/2007 12:39:48

You'll have to forgive the glasgow rabble,
their worried about their welfare checques
and other assorted government handouts.

279

,

08/04/2007 12:40:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
280

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 12:40:48

312. AM2, Glasgow
""There's only a paucity of substantive arguments from the nationalist side.""

Oh Really?!!

All we've had from your side is;
'you're too poor, ye cannae afford to look after yourselves without somebody else to pay for you'.

Which after the umpteenth repeatition gets a bit boring and, frankly, patronising.

Scots, of all the people in the world, are uniquely incapable of running their own affairs?

Your case is hardly even two dimensional, not even businesses are are run purely for cold cash, otherwise we'd still be putting kids up chimneys.

Culture, and the quality of life weigh far heavier in the balance than 'how much?'

I've said a few times now that I've yet to meet anyone who did not enjoy spending cash on something they value.

btw How much would you be prepared to pay to remain a subject of Great Britain?

281

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 08/04/2007 12:41:14

296

I think we ALL know Gordon Brown's attempt to be more English than Scottish in his desperate attempt to appeal to English voters is the reason he chose Gazza's goal against Scotland as his all-time favourite.

That statement really encapsulates the lengths that Labour go to in an attempt to 'unite' these Islands.

Scotland doesn't care much for it at all and the English aren't fooled one bit - as many of this weekend's polls show.

Poor old 'it's Brown and it smells' - he may becomne PM after decades of waiting but will be lucky if hee sits on his Unionist throne for more than a year or two!!!

282

IWright,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 12:45:00

Every week or so the Labour drones on this forum and elsewhere seem to have a "theme". This week's theme seems to be to smear the SNP individually and collectively.

BTW The Scottish media is in danger of invalidating this election. An essential part of any free and fair election is a reasonable representation of the various parties policies. If this election is sabotaged by lies, fears and smears then the consequences could be very damaging.

283

Trebor,

08/04/2007 12:46:05

The SNP have got the midwinter blues methinks!

284

Who's Adam Smith?,

Fife 08/04/2007 12:51:43

MJD #319 some commentators are suggesting Scotland would be an "Economic basket case" if she were to gain independence; now from the most basic of calculations..this is simply not true, and the statement becomes more of a threat, since we know it is not based on true figures.

285

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 13:00:25

326. AM2
Why don't you change that broken record and tell us which part of 'Scotland can't run it's own affairs without handouts' you disagree with?

Does this long playing record have a 'B' side, this side sounds like it's scratched?

Maybe you should get rid of that old LP and play something that the rest might want to hear?

Like how are we going to run Scotland for the benefit of the quality of life of the people who live here and have an emotional attachment to this place, rather than the 'Brigadoon' version for benefit of the 'White Settlers'?

It ain't just all about money you know.

Or are the fingers in the ears and 'la la la I can't hear you' all you can do?

What would you pay to remain British?

286

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 08/04/2007 13:04:45

330

I think that a lot of LABOUR voters have awoken out of their 'coz ma faither voted Labour' sleepwalk to the polls and realise that the Labour Party really died when John Smith.

Ever since he died the Labour party has slipped into a horrible creation with parts of the Tories and parts of the Republican party - hardly a hint of socialism.

The SNP offer a better future for Scotland and that is why they will be the largest aprty in Scotland in a few weeks time.

287

Cam3,

Scotland 08/04/2007 13:05:08

;o)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6536765.stm

Scotland finally sees through the negative and frankly absurd fudge of New Labour and their no-change policies that render Scotland voiceless.

For moral, democratic change - for a chance to really get to grips of *how* important Scotland is, and how *much* we can change things for the better - it's SNP in May.

Exciting times - out with the old and dysfunctional - in with new exciting horizons.

;o)

288

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 13:06:52

326. AM2
Third time of asking.

What is it worth to you to remain British?

30 peices of silver?

289

Alex Young Laird of Drumchapel,

Madrid 08/04/2007 13:09:56

Midwinter Automatic: Put machine on spin and wait for the dirt to come out. Experts confirm it.

King Arthur Midwinter: The myth of a man and his extraordinary efforts to save his United Kingdom.

Come on, there has to be better ones.

290

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 08/04/2007 13:10:03

Also I am hearing about lot of traditional Conservative and Liberal voters who are planning to vote tactically to kick out Labour MSPs in their area.

What a great idea :-)

291

John S,

08/04/2007 13:12:26

My simple maths ?

Trident missle up grade projected est cost £20-£80 bn plus
London Olympic games est now £9.5 bn, new est £15 bn plus
Iraq war so far £8 bn plus
Two new air craft carriers £10bn plus £3 bn running costs over 50 years

Total approx £50 bn to £120 bn,Scotland population approx 5 million so the cost to the Scottish people should be £5 bn to £12 bn this works out to be £1,000 to £2,400 per person or Scotland has 2.27 million households this works out to be £2206 to £5286 per Scottish household.

In cash terms, the next six years should yield the Treasury at least £55 billion from oil and gas revenues, which is actually some £20 billion more than in the previous six years. If oil prices rise and the dollar slides, it could be more.

292

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 13:12:28

334 id gladly give 30 pieces of silver to remain a BRIT peanuts compared to what the snp has in store and talk about changing the record yer having a laugh it aint broken yet

293

Dennis,

North Isles 08/04/2007 13:13:30

#242 AM2 - good analysis

It is set up to be an unholy alliance between the SNP and the English Tories. I say English - because it looks like the London Tories will stab their erstwhile Scotttish brethren in the back, and dump them soon.

For the London Torles nothing is more important than regaining power in Westminster - and if it means divesting themselves of their 'Unionist' credentials to do so then they will.

Cameron and his cronies will whip up English nationalism (even worse than the Scottish version) - ever so craftily - using Gordon Brown as the catalyst. The SNP will keep their side of the bargain by picking fight after fight with Westminster (if they end up governing in Holyrood). This will include ever increasing demands for extra rebates etc from the UK purse to subsidise tax cuts or spending bribes for Scotland only. This will - of course - anger the English, which will be fanned by the Tories.

Come 2009-2010 the scene will be set with Gordon Brown -the 'Crafty Scot' - as very unpopular in England, to lose the General Election. The Tories, as the new governing party will then do something designed to anger Scotland - which will be pounced on by the SNP -acting for an 'angry' nation - call a referendum ...

Result

England/Wales will be stuck with the Tories and right wing parties for a generation or many.

Scotland will be catapulted into the unknown. The timing, unfortunately, will be all political. To get to that point the wrangling and fiscal manipulation carried out by an SNP led regime will have hit business confidence critically. The spending bribes will have led to an even more bloated public sector and huge expectations for hand-outs by a large part of the electorate. Chickens will then come home to roost - as there will be too many dependents and not enough 'wage earners' (private sector) to make the books balance. Scotland will be left floundering in the second decade of the 21st Century wit

294

Captain Vodka,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 13:14:53

Sad to say but this article is indicative of the way the SoS is starting to report this election. As polling day looms the dirty tricks and propaganda are only going to get worse.

295

Swede16,

swede dream 08/04/2007 13:16:03

Of all the small Countries Europe, Scotland is alone in not being run their own affairs apparently. Is that what 300 years of disparate Union have brought us to?
How the pro-union career politicians have the brass neck to suggest this is beyond me.
They gladly turn up in kilts when called upon like some tartan uncle-Tom. But run our own affairs - that would never work!

296

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 08/04/2007 13:19:02

* 338

I never understand someone who is happy to settle for a 4th rate standard of living and to let another country rule their own.

Unless someone is profiting out of the existing set-up or are just don't have the sense or backbone to aspire to something better then Im stumped!

297

,

08/04/2007 13:19:10
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298

John2,

Kent 08/04/2007 13:21:50

"SNP not fit to govern" ? Oh yes they are - oh no the're not - oh yes they are - oh no the're not etc etc etc. Who cares - just as long as the Union is scrapped. Cry freedom for Harry, England and St George. Go for it Scotland - please.

299

democracy,

Selkirkshire 08/04/2007 13:23:44

#299+302 typical lies even on the betting , how pathetic you brainless Unionists are! You are obviously
a big fan of AM2, methinks you want him as a lover eh!
Being a Unionist I'm sure he will be keen to accommodate you!!

300

Who's Adam Smith?,

Fife 08/04/2007 13:24:27

#339 More fear tactics from the "Visionary" Dennis..nice comment regarding English Nationalism!
Some questions for Dennis:
Q1 Do the Scottish people have the right to hold a referendum on independence?
Q2 Do the Scottish people have the right to have more devolved powers at Holyrood, not withstanding independence?
Q3 Do the Scottish people have a right to Self Determination?
Q4 Do the Scottish people have a right to fiscal and political autonomy?

301

Swede16,

swede dream 08/04/2007 13:25:58

#345

Save us the mock indignation-
I don't share your religion and have no wish to be offended by you bringing it up here.
The millions of deaths in the name of said religion are much more distasteful.
so stick to the argument!

302

kameroon,

lanarkshire 08/04/2007 13:26:26

IT'S TIME to think a little bit ahead here,it's highly unlikely that Labour will win the next UK general election and it's more than likely that the Conservatives will have the upper hand at Westminister.
In my opinion the Tories can cooperate far beter with the SNP than they could with Scottish Labour.The barnett formula is going to be revised downwards to satisfy the English who are going to vote Conservative,this would mean less money for Jack Mcconnel to buy his votes through job creation in front line services.
The only way to fill the black hole would be to raise tax 4.5p in the pound and we all know that they can't raise it more than 3p in the pound.
By the time tomorrow comes the black hole will be 6 Billion,on tuesday it's forecast to be back down to 4 Billion,and on wednesday it's 1.3 Billion,thursday it's anybodys guess.

303

,

08/04/2007 13:27:10
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304

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 13:31:49

#348

Come and add something constructive to the debate instead of childish remarks.

Pathetic Unionists? What a hypocrite!

305

democracy,

Selkirkshire 08/04/2007 13:32:24

#339 Dennis, Calling all men in white coats, will you please go to the North Isles and lock this guy up !!!

306

argonaut,

musselburgh 08/04/2007 13:32:31

talk about so like his namesake....Midwinter....bleak..cold..harsh and what a load of b*llocks! Midwinter like his Labour idols will be assigned to no mans land come next month. What really amazes me is the poor judgement of the scotsman, this papers rep has been so damaged in recent months -it is not what it is supposed to be - it is not impartial - it is completely biased towards labour. Like Labour, the scotsman talks to us like we are village idiots who will simply absorb the trash they tell us> so labour get a bloody grip and defend your corner without the london claptrap and Scotsman for the sake of your rep....be constructive and non biased. You gotta laugh tho, messrs McConnell, Blair, Brown, the Alexanders, witches Jamieson and Ferguson and laugh a minute McCabe telling us why we should vote labour, me thinks Carstairs should have an odd ball political section with maybe Midwinter serving them their tea!!!!!!

ITS TIME......

307

Birnamo,

Edinburgh 08/04/2007 13:32:50

It would seem reasonable to remark that the heading "SNP not fit to govern" is pure speculation when no-one has actually experienced their skills in Government.

On the other hand LABOUR NOT FIT TO GOVERN can be debated on the basis of a pretty miserable two Parliaments.

They have suddenly come up with a 25% reduction in Council Tax for Pensioners at the 11th. hour. This is palpably an election sweetner. There is little to even justify any belief that this will happen.

I have left Holyrood meetings encouraged by promises which have evaporated into empty space within hours. After seven years of this behaviour there is little positive which I can say about politics led propositions.

Il foreste di Birnamo si movere.

308

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 13:32:52

350

Swede Adolf

Are you against religious tolerance?

Against freedom of expression?

Are you a fascist?

You dont do religion so no-one else should?

People with religious beliefs should be silenced?

Is your name Adolf?

309

John S,

08/04/2007 13:33:09

#340 - My simple maths ?

I am using one tenth of £50bn to £120 bn which equals £5bn to £12 bn because the Scottish population is approx one tenth of the UK population then I divided the £5bn to £12 bn by the number of Scottish households (2.27 million) which equals £2206 to £5286 per Scottish household.

310

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 08/04/2007 13:33:46

Let's not forget EVERY SINGLE MSP (bar Kate McLean - Dundee West) voted against a Holyrood Motion to stop he disbandment of the Royal Scots and the merger of the remaining five Scottish Regiments.

Kate McLean has stood down as an MSP and the Labour cowards who cowered beneath their London masters were defeated in the motion regardless.

over 255,000 Scots signed the contents of two petitions which were delivered to Tony Blair at Downing Street - everone of them was ignored.

Time to reap what you have sown Mr Blair and all those Labour MSPs.

And that is just one issue you have to be 'rewarded' for!

311

,

08/04/2007 13:35:21
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312

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 13:36:23

Discussions with my friends in England reveal they largely hope the SNP wins, and that the Scots get the independence so many crave.

They'd like to jettison other "basket cases" too: Wales & Northern Ireland.

Then, they can get ahead, unhindered by the no-hopers, whingers, layabouts etc.

313

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 13:36:26

337 get yer facts right you convieniently forgot to mention where the 2 AIRCRAFT CARRIERS WILL BE BUILT let me enlighten you ON THE CLYDE but i suspect you knew that but chose not to mention its jack for me

314

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 13:37:40

362 you got helluva lots of friends down south

315

,

08/04/2007 13:37:53
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316

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 13:37:54

359

How do you know they were "ignored"?

317

Swede16,

swede dream 08/04/2007 13:38:06

#357
'll happily run rings round you in a religious argument elsewhere jonnyboy. This is about political independence - stick to the point

318

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 13:39:28

#352 a proud d

Its nice to see you take this new poll in high regard! You're only happy when it goes your way? What about the poll in Herald which put Labour in the lead? What about the poll in the Scotsman reported in not but a few days ago that "brings them back down to earth"?

The polls generally only take a sample of 1000 or so out of 5,000,000 people. They fluctuate wildly! They are quite inaccurate. The only poll that will matter is the one on 3rd May. The real result.

Oh and nice to see you join us again. Must have had a late night 'expending' your energy desperately promoting independence.

319

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 13:40:15

364,

Yes, I have.

And the vast majority state the case I described above.

They hope Scotland and the Scots GTF and stop being a drain on taxplayers in England.

320

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 13:40:31

* taxpayers

321

Swede16,

swede dream 08/04/2007 13:41:47

#362

The thats the big irony - The union-jack tattooed louts down south will be the ones who finally deliver us independence.To get their votes the pro-unionist will become pro-englandists instead. But then again that has always meant the same thing to them anyway.
who cares how though, as long as it happens

322

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 13:45:35

370 do you know the population of england and i got friends down south who say the complete opposite

323

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 13:46:37

#370

Which part of England are you from? If its London my apology, but if not then you'll realise that all areas of the United Kingdom are subsidised outside of London.

Are you suggesting that the North of England declare itself as Independent? Or maybe East Anglia should become "East Wales"???

324

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 13:49:45

372 so if you got a tatoo of the union flag your automatically a lout ive got news for you i and some friends have got the said tatoo ARE WE LOUTS?or patriotic, yer a turnip not a swede

325

argonaut,

musselburgh 08/04/2007 13:50:34

#363 CATHOLIC GEORGE, incorrect the carriers will not be built on the Clyde, the carriers will be built in phases/ diff sections at diff yards including french yards. No one yet knows which parts will be fabricated in scotland and going by the MOD procurement we may well have men on Mars before the carriers are built for the Royal Navy which will be an England navy by the time they are built...have a nice day....

ITS TIME............

326

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 13:54:15

363 - CG

When did the Clyde start running through France - for that's where the carriers will be built. Didn't they tell you?

327

Alex Young Laird of Drumchapel,

Madrid 08/04/2007 13:54:42

Ye're wrang MJD. It would seem that London subsidises the EU, the 3rd world, the Scots, the N. Irish, the Welsh and the English regions. They must be more productive than ants. Funny, it seems the opposite to me when I worked for the London Borough of Islington.

The truth is, it is London that is subsidised.

Anyway, thanks to easyjet I can now fly home direct for election night on 3rd May. Can't miss this.

328

,

08/04/2007 13:54:54
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329

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 13:55:49

373

Yes, it about 50 million.

330

argonaut,

musselburgh 08/04/2007 13:56:09

HAHAHAHA...union jack tatoos....hahahahahaha aye very good....you cannie buy class like that...
happy easter......

331

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 13:57:49

MJD 374

I didnt say I was from England.

My location is irrelevant.

As previously advised, the majority of my friends want the Scots to GTF.

332

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 13:57:57

376 THE CARRIERS WIL BE BUILT IN SCOTLAND HAVE A NICE DAY

333

IWright,

Edinburgh, capital of dodgy dossiers 08/04/2007 13:58:06

#369
"Its nice to see you take this new poll in high regard! You're only happy when it goes your way? What about the poll in Herald which put Labour in the lead? What about the poll in the Scotsman reported in not but a few days ago that "brings them back down to earth"?"

MJD - the poll the Scotsman reported was the poll in the Herald. That poll was at best a blip since all the other polls show a strong SNP lead. At worst it was more than a blip. It was conducted by a company that has done a fair bit of business with the Scottish Executive, it apparently does not normally counduct such opinion polls and its methodology has been questioned. If you read the Scotsman and the Herald you should be aware of this.

334

Swede16,

swede dream 08/04/2007 13:59:01

#373
You failed the interpretation test!

I never said any any with a union jack tattoo is a lout.

But there again if you can't win the proper argument you can always make up your own statements - attribute them to me - and then win that argument.
It's an 'aunt sally' argument. Google for it!

It is the union jack tattooed louts how will help deliver independence.

Just to give you a wee help with interpretation - you can talks about lager- louts, as I guess your favourite newspaper does, - doesn't mean your saying everyone who drinks lager is a lout.

335

IWright,

Edinburgh, capital of dodgy dossiers 08/04/2007 13:59:31

#384
"As previously advised, the majority of my friends want the Scots to GTF"

John - and they're still your friends?

336

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 14:00:43

382ARGONAUT come down glasgow way and repeat your sarcastic remark......i thought not

337

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 14:00:48

375 - CG

Ah, well, - now we begin to understand.

Chosen name, location, union flag tattoo, just arrived on the forum.

As Karen Dunbar would say - "I smell sh*te!"

Just can't put my finger on what you called yourself the last time you were here. It'll come to me tho'.

338

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 14:01:13

#378

Its a well known fact that London and its surrounding area subsidise the rest of the UK.

And to be honest, I'd rather fly BRITISH Airways.

339

Swede16,

swede dream 08/04/2007 14:01:15

#384 -

so your friends want you to GTF? - or are you not Scottish?

340

,

08/04/2007 14:01:25
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341

democracy,

Selkirkshire 08/04/2007 14:04:12

#353

I am fed up of bandying words and numbers back and forth with Unionists, I have decided to have a more relaxed abusive day today. I will be back to my intelligent self tomorrow. In the meantime try this,
what is the most natural world order, for instance, Heterosexual or homosexual, or put it another way,
Self determination or Governance by another country, and put this question to every single country in the world and even YOU would know the outcome to that one, or would you??
So, does Scotland have the right to this and that--YES
Do Unionists have the right to argue and fight against that country becoming Independent--NO, as their argument has no real political or moral authority to do so!

342

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:04:13

384

Adolf,

my friends want Scotland to GTF and stop being a drain on them.

343

IWright,

Edinburgh, capital of dodgy dossiers 08/04/2007 14:04:13

Yes, this week's theme for drones and trolls is smear the SNP, preferably with some sort of Nazi/Fascist connection.

344

Dennis,

North Isles 08/04/2007 14:04:53

#349 WAS

"Q1 Do the Scottish people have the right to hold a referendum on independence?"

I'm not an expert on the British Constitution , but I believe referenda are quite legal. On might ask why such methods are not more routinely used throughout democracies. I think one reason that they are quite rare - is that they are open to manipulation. I don't mean that the count is fiddled - that would be too obvious. The method of manipulation includes:
a) manipulating outside events; b) the timing favours the party calling it; c) the wording of the 'question'.

"Q2 Do the Scottish people have the right to have more devolved powers at Holyrood, not withstanding independence?"

Are the current powers not wide-ranging enough? Why not learn to use the current powers wisely for the good of Scotland - then build on that?

Q3 Do the Scottish people have a right to Self Determination?

I would like more acountability from our elected representives and - probaly even more importantly -from unelected psuedo-governing (non-elected) individuals. To my mind this has little to do with whether or not Scotland is a nation - it is about the ability to have more power and RESPONSIBILITY locally. I wish to do this within the country we all live in now.

Q4 Do the Scottish people have a right to fiscal and political autonomy?

See above.


354 'democracy'

You are badly named...I think there is a name for regimes which lock up people with views it doesn't like..... Democracy it is not. I suggest a new nom de plume for you ...'Mugabe'

345

Swede16,

swede dream 08/04/2007 14:05:03

#379

more mock indignation!
just doesn't cut it as an argument I'm afraid.

Take your religious superstitions elsewhere. Next you'll being saying people can rise from the dead!

346

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 14:05:27

333. Cam3
Holyrood voting intentions 06-07
Constituency polls
..... Nov. Dec. Jan. Feb.. Mar.. Apr..May
Lab 35% .--- 31% 29% 29% 28% ?%
SNP 32% .--- 33% 34% 35% 40% ?%

Regional polls
..... Nov. Dec. Jan. Feb.. Mar.. Apr..May
Lab 32%. .--- 30% 28% 25% 28% ?%
SNP 30%. .--- 32% 32% 36% 39% ?%

Can anyone see a pattern here?

347

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 14:05:35

#384

If that's the case, and you are Scottish, does that mean they want you to "GTF" as well?

Also, if that is your English friends opinion, then my point about location is relevant, if they are not in London, do they realise that they are also being subsidised?

348

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 14:05:44

400 up!

349

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 14:06:07

bums, missed it!

350

Royster,

08/04/2007 14:06:45

#396. The SNP certainly isn't a nazi party but like all nationalist parties it has fascist undertones.

351

Alistair Stewart,

www.r-o-a-r.org 08/04/2007 14:07:05

* 367

They were ignored because Labour went ahead and disbanded The Royal Scots against their wishes and amalgamated the Black Watch and The KOSB as well.

All to save money for Gordon Brown's purse.

I am confident many of those 255,00 signatories will use their discretion when it comes to giving Labour MSPs an X on a ballot paper.

One betrayal deserves another :-)

352

Alistair Stewart,

www.r-o-a-r.org 08/04/2007 14:07:41

* 403

Provide evidence please to back up your wild claim

353

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:07:45

388

Yes, of course.

I aint as easily offended as some of the tarts on here.

In truth, I can see therir point.

Read the Scotsman story. £1800 Million hole. Uncosted wish list.

And then read the comments of countless mindless, moaning, tarts seduced by the promise of a better life under the SNP.

Cant blame the Englanders for wanting rid.

354

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 14:09:41

345. AM2
OK how much?
fourth time of asking
What are you willing to pay to be British?

355

Swede16,

swede dream 08/04/2007 14:09:45

#395

"... a drain ..." for your pals - how very apt.

356

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:09:50

MJD 400

Not in London.

Another prosperous part of Eng.

All net contributors.

Sick and tired of financing "moaning Scots"

Tell them to GTF and watch them sink.

357

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 14:11:20

well said royster

358

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:11:36

398

Swede Adolf

Who said I'm religious?

I just despise fascists like you.

359

argonaut,

musselburgh 08/04/2007 14:12:21

no catholic george, the carriers for the Royal aka english navy will not be built in scotland, the contract with Thanes has been signed so parts of them will be fabricated in france along with devonport and Barrow/ Clyde with the aim being assembly at rosyth but then again the way the MOD is going the Navy may be lucky to get 2 x type 62 armoured rowing boats........
nice takin to ya george....keep takin the vallies......
happy easter...

360

IWright,

Edinburgh, capital of dodgy dossiers 08/04/2007 14:12:34

#403
Royster - another one, I think that's at least 5 posters on this thread alone accusing the SNP of fascist/Nazi connections.
Previous themes have included SNP being anti-English and looking on unionist Scots as "traitors".

361

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 14:13:01

409 god bless ulster

362

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:13:03

JEFF 404

I know what they sought, and I know the outcome, but I must ask you again: how do you know they were "ignored"?

363

IWright,

Edinburgh, capital of dodgy dossiers 08/04/2007 14:13:34

When I try typing unionist I end up typng unionits!

364

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:13:57

414 Aye, God Bless Ulsrter, and God Bless Leinster, Connaught and Munster too.

In fact, God Bless all of Ireland.

365

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 14:13:58

#394

Were you ever intelligent? That comment is purely idiotic.

No one is saying that we shouldn't have the right to be independent, its about what is more beneficial. And to me, 79% of the countries top 500 companies and the majority of the population believe that being a part of the UK is the most beneficial situation we can have.

Also, if your name is "democracy" you will understand that us "Unionists" have a right to "argue and fight against that country becoming Independent"

And who turned you into a judge of moral standards? We don't need your moral or political authorisation for anything!

366

,

08/04/2007 14:14:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
367

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 14:14:37

403 - Royster

Substantiate or withdraw.

368

Swede16,

swede dream 08/04/2007 14:17:16

#411

More aunt sally arguments from the racist Jonny

Your type are despised the world over.
Take your racism elsewhere

369

IWright,

Edinburgh, capital of dodgy dossiers 08/04/2007 14:17:19

#406
John - Well I suppose you think that's a good thing, I don't.
BTW Are you John Reid? He's a Scottish Unionist and Irish Nationalist as well.

370

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:17:28

420

Oh dear dear dear.....

There ARE a lot of fascists out today, eh?

Is the guy not entitled to express an opinion here?

371

Jimmyczz,

08/04/2007 14:18:03

#393

If true this is political dynamite. Perhaps a fuse should be lit?

372

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 14:18:21

417 yes god bless the soldiers from ww1 the connaught rangers the leinster regiment and the royal munster fusiliers

373

Black Hound,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 14:18:25

I see that the economic debate still continues. I thought, that long ago, everyone had accepted that GERS was totally flawed. (Why should Scots be debitted for the Old Bailley? and many more such errors.)

There is no doubt that Scotland could survive on its own, and I suspect it would flourish.

Even if the economic arguments are not understood, the desire of English politicians to hold on to Scotland says that we contribute far more than we are given.

374

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:18:40

422 IWright

How do you come to suppose you know my views?

Have we met?

375

Bill, Dunblane,

08/04/2007 14:20:41

418 - MJD

You keep quoting: "79% of the countries top 500 companies"

Could you tell us, was that the opinion of the chairmen, the shareholders, the workers, or who?

If it was the chairmen, did they consult the shareholder or workers?

Or is it just 'sources'?

376

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:20:42

425 Papist

Yes, God Bless Ireland.

All of them

Ulster
Munster
Leinster
Connaught

And particularly today, God Bless all who fought to rid Roisin Dubh of its cruel oppressor.

377

Alex Young Laird of Drumchapel,

Madrid 08/04/2007 14:20:48

Hey Royster,

Methinks that it is the British imperialists who have genocidal racist undertones. How else can you justify voting for parties that supported the slaughter of a million Iraqi men, women and children? Away ye go and cosy up to the Neo-cons.

Livilion: What trend? The one that says Labour are getting emphatically booted out of power? ;)

378

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 14:22:05

412 argonaught iwas in the navy for your info its not the english but BRITISH NAVY where you been hiding sounds like the moon change yer name to astronout its more appropiate HAHA

379

Orson Oilwells,

Gigha 08/04/2007 14:23:28

VOTE SNP.
Scots appear to be treating the scaremongering with the disdain much of it deserves. Trying to chill the blood about passport checks at the border is silly, since an independent Scotland would be a member of the EU. There's an argument to be had about the economics of independence, but it's laughably crude to claim that Scotland would disappear down a black hole. You don't have to buy the SNP's extravagant projections about oil revenues to observe that many small, independent countries are prospering in the EU. Even if the parallel is not exact, it is useful to Mr Salmond to draw the attention of Scots to the Republic of Ireland which has now overtaken the UK in GDP per head.

To give himself more economic credibility, he can call in aid some prominent Scottish business figures. George Mathewson, who turned the Royal Bank of Scotland into one of the world's top 10 banks, argues that he can see no serious economic disadvantages and that independence could 'liberate Scotland from a dependency culture'. Instead of taking refuge in victimhood by blaming all their problems on the English and Westminster, Scots would be forced to address themselves to why their nation does not perform as well it could.

Scots receive an average of £1,500 per head more in public spending than the English. The most bullying suggestion is that a separatist Scotland would no longer benefit from this arrangement. That's a dangerous argument for Labour to make. It risks annoying Scots by cruelly reminding them that they are subsidised by the English. At the same time, it will aggravate the English who are already asking why their taxes are helping to pay for the devolution perks of being Scottish such as a university education free of tuition fees.

380

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 14:23:41

430 so you support the murderous thugs in iraq

381

Alistair Stewart,

www.r-o-a-r.org 08/04/2007 14:24:34

415

Because if they had be LISTENED TO instead of being IGNORED their would still be a ROYAL SCOTS

are you struggling with that?

382

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 14:24:49

>>>
403. Royster / 3:06pm 8 Apr 2007 #396. The SNP certainly isn't a nazi party but like all nationalist parties it has fascist undertones.
<<<

PROVE IT OR RETRACT IT!!

383

,

08/04/2007 14:24:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
384

Orson Oilwells,

Gigha 08/04/2007 14:25:13

VOTE SNP. An SNP victory in May is not exactly the finale to Tony Blair's premiership that he would have wished for, but it won't be the end of his world. He has never given the impression that he is terribly fond of Scotland, a feeling which the Scots have often heartily reciprocated. And he will soon be off to polish his legacy. A nationalist government in Edinburgh will be someone else's migraine, namely Gordon Brown's. For him, an SNP victory would be a nightmare both sides of the border.

It is hard to be sure how much English voters are going to mind being ruled by a Scottish Prime Minister. What is certain is that Mr Brown fears that it could be a very big problem indeed. There is already mounting resentment about the unfairnesses created by Labour's version of devolution. The 39 Scottish Labour MPs can't legislate for the health, education and transport of their own constituents, while they can do so for English voters to whom they are not answerable.

A separatist Scottish executive clamouring for more independence will heighten English aggravation that they are being governed by so many Scots. There would be swelling pressure for English laws to be made by English MPs. Gordon Brown would struggle to get a hearing for any more of his speeches extolling the glories of Britishness.

The stakes for him are enormous. The Tories narrowly won the popular vote in England at the last general election. If Labour loses Scotland next month, David Cameron will be able to hit Gordon Brown with a double whammy. The Tory leader can portray Gordon Brown as a Prime Minister without a mandate from either England or his native land. There's a word with a clear meaning on both sides of the border for how Gordon Brown will feel. That word begins with an f.

385

,

08/04/2007 14:26:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
386

Alistair Stewart,

www.r-o-a-r.org 08/04/2007 14:26:30

Should the Six Scottish Regiments be ...
Have a look at the poll results to-date on the website

1. Re-instated immediately - this should never have happened

3770 97%

2. Wait - give the Royal Regiment some time to see if it works
71 2%

3. Amalgamated
32 1%

387

,

08/04/2007 14:26:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
388

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 14:27:18

#386 IWright

If this is the case, you will at least agree with me that a sample of 1000 people per poll out of 5,000,000 is completely irrelevant. It represents only 0.02% of the population. Even if you say their has been around 20 polls of late that only represents 0.4% of the population. Hardly indicative.

You should also know that the SNP have commissioned their own polls, does that make them impartial?

The real poll is May 3rd.

389

livilion,

livingston 08/04/2007 14:27:27

417. _John_, At Easter

So what has this to do with the price of cheeze?

390

Alistair Stewart,

www.r-o-a-r.org 08/04/2007 14:27:49

#403

You cannot prove what is not true - and your desperate attempt to portray a party that currently has the majority support in Scotland is just that ... desperate.

391

argonaut,

musselburgh 08/04/2007 14:28:11

news flash.....scientists discover the missing link....previously a skull found in africa which they called Lucy was thought to be the missing link in human evolution.....Scottish scientists have now indentified the true missing link from primate to human - the specimen had unusual red white and blue markings on his body and he is alive and well in down town govan......

392

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:28:17

415

Nope, I'm not struggling at all, Jeff.

You STILL havent told me how you know it was IGNORED.

You dont know that at all.

Think about this, Jeff:

they got it.
they read it.
they took it seriously.
they reconsidered.
they discussed it again and again.
and then decided to go ahead despite the views expressed in the petition.

Let me ask you again, Jeff:

How do you know it was IGNORED?

393

BillyB,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 14:28:58

Just raed ths wel written and I think balance review of today Scotland on Sunday at www.youscotland.com

"The save the Union "brownnose award of the day" must go to "Scotland on Sunday" and its lead front page headline "SNP unfit to govern". What had hootsman publications discovered? - that Prof Arthur Midwinter of Stathclyde Uni, a lifelong long Brian Wilson type anti-devolution unionist, thinks the SNP's sums don't add up. Like the Pope is a Catholic or Celtic are set to win the SPL

What Midwinter has to say deserves some coverage - and a reasoned response from the SNP ( I am sure we will get one - but will SoS/The Scotsman publish?) But SoS's tabloid treatment of the predictable - a front page spread? Prof Midwinter in public sector finance terms is a semi -credible enough academic figure, but here is the health warning SoS ommitted to give its readers. He's is a former Labour councillor, and all through the 80's and 90's he was against devolution - more or less said it would bankrupt us all. lead to a collapse in public services. (health, and education spending, plus central government support of local government doubled in real terms since 1999, Authur)

And now? - a paid advisor to the Scottish Parliament's Finance Committee, fomerly Convened by that well known free thinker, Labour MSP Des McNumptiie ( McNulty , Clydebank and Mingavie. Mr Holyrood building, "see no evil" SPCB member), and now Brown Owl Wendy Alexander, herself married to Professor Brian Ashcroft, a Strathcyde University chum of Arthur's and of Alf Young, Deputy Editor of The Herald, best buddie of Gordon Brown, former Chief researcher of the Labour Party in Scotland. All we need now is guy from the Supranos, and it would be Monlkands without the catholics, - only bigger perks.

But the main point is that it is not news - Maybe to some some imported SoS assitant editor

394

Black Hound,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 14:29:24

437

You allude to the West Lothian Question.

What about the Ayr question: Why do the the English Ministers for Education and Health sit in the UK Cabinet?

395

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 14:30:19

434 alot of famous regiments got almagated not just the royal scots,proud english regiments as well

396

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:30:46

443

livilion

Shhh!

For intelligent\educated people my statement is self explanatory.

397

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:33:35

435

What a choice!

You guys do seem rather upset by his statement.

By your various angry reactions, you do appear to be proving him right yourselves!!!

398

Orson Oilwells,

Gigha 08/04/2007 14:34:25

Quarter
First Minister Jack McConnell pointed out a quarter of the amount pensioners pay in their council tax bills was for water and sewerage charges.
“Labour will cut them in half, and eventually remove them,” he said.
But an SNP spokesman said pensioners would be three times worse off under Labour’s proposals than under the Nationalists’ plan to scrap the council tax completely, to be replaced by a local income tax, which will be announced in their manifesto on Thursday.
“The SNP manifesto will set out our plans to cut the overall burden of local taxation by £450 million — the biggest tax cut in a generation — directed to benefit pensioners and middle Scotland,” he added.
“More than half a million pensioners will pay nothing under the SNP system.”
Today’s poll gives the SNP a record lead over Labour for the second week — this time 12 points ahead on the first, or constituency vote, and 11 points clear on the top-up “list” vote.
If replicated at the election in less than four weeks’, this would see the SNP with 56 seats, to Labour’s 40.
Comfortable lead
The news comes as Labour admitted their own internal polling showed the Nationalists with a comfortable lead.
The poll, conducted by Scottish Opinion, gives the SNP 40 per cent of the constituency vote, Labour 28, Conservatives 15, the Liberal Democrats 14 and Others three.
On the list vote, the SNP have 39 per cent, Labour 28, Conservatives 14, Liberal Democrats 10, Greens four, Scottish Socialists one and Others four.
The new-look Scottish Parliament would have 56 SNP MSPs, Labour with 40, Liberal Democrats 13, Conservatives 17, Others three.
However, Mr McConnell claimed he always knew the election was going to be close.
“Since January I’ve been convinced we’d start the campaign behind, and we had to win the battle of ideas.
“We are behind, but the Opposition’s plans are flawed at their core, and in their detail.”
But jubilant SNP

399

Whiskey,

Canada 08/04/2007 14:35:18

Well done Midwinter...if wit was s**t you'd be constipated!!

400

MJD,

Glasgow 08/04/2007 14:35:28

#438 a proud d

I agree with you. I have never said that a referendum should never happen. I am all for one in fact!

However, where we differ is our stance on independence. I will also not vote for the SNP because I personally think that their policies and ideas are flawed (along with their maths).

I am glad that you agree with me that everyone has the right to decide, and hope you'll further agree with me that posters such as "democracy" are an embarrassment and assume that we should not have the democratic right to oppose each other!

401

CATHOLIC GEORGE,

govan 08/04/2007 14:35:53

440 ah mite need alift home from the labour party office.....anyway git oot and git some fresh air ye seem ta need it

402

_John_,

At Easter, God Bless the Boys of the Old Brigade 08/04/2007 14:37:41

JEFF

I can see you're struggling.

Let me help you.

Petitions etc are grand and popular.

The Daily Retard could whip up fervour over a given topic and thousands of Glasgow's neanderthals could sign up to anything!

Were I to raise a petition tomorrow:

VAT should be reduced to 10%,

or

the tax on petrol should be halved

both would get widespread support. Maybe millions.

Should the Government then "respond to the will of the people"?

And if they dont, are they IGNORING them?

403

kameroon,

lanarkshire 08/04/2007 14:38:04

I wonder who's got their finger up
Professor Arthur-doom gloom-Midwinters erse.
Any takers?

404

Alistair Stewart,

www.r-o-a-r.org 08/04/2007 14:38:12

#446

415

Nope, I'm not struggling at all, Jeff.

You STILL havent told me how you know it was IGNORED.

You dont know that at all.

Think about this, Jeff:

they got it. YES - ALEX SALMOND DELIVERED IT
they read it. - YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT
they took it seriously. - YOU ALSO DO NOT KNOW THAT - AND IF THEY DID THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CARRIED OUT SUCH A COWARDLY AND WANTON ACT OF DESTRUCTION
they reconsidered. - THEY DID NOT
they discussed it again and again. THEY DID NOT
and then decided to go ahead despite the views expressed in the petition. - THAT THEY DID

Let me ask you again, Jeff:

How do you know it was IGNORED?


SEEMS YOU ARE IGNORING THE FACTS THAT THE LABOUR PARTY STABBED THE SCOTTISH REGIMENTS IN THE BACK

ARE YOU A LABOUR APOLOGIST FOR THIS ACT THEN?