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'Refuge' plan for violent husbands



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Published Date:
02 December 2007
MEN who commit domestic violence should be taken out of the family home and sent for counselling at a "refuge", the new head of Scotland's biggest police force said last night.
Stephen House, who has just taken over as chief constable of Strathclyde Police, said domestic violence was the cause of other problems in society and new measures were needed to crack down on abusers.

House wants a network of men's refuges created where domestic abusers can learn to control their violent behaviour as a condition of being allowed to return home.

Women's groups last night welcomed the renewed focus on domestic violence but questioned the use of "refuges" for perpetrators.

Last week, it emerged that domestic abuse in Scotland had risen by 7% in a year, reaching 48,801 incidents.

A separate official report based on the 2006 Scottish Crime Survey, found that just one in five "victims of force" by a partner had reported it.

House, previously an assistant chief commissioner with the Metropolitan Police, said: "I have seen one or two good examples of domestic violence work and I want to try and introduce them here.

"I'm concerned that domestic violence can help spur the cycle of violence. If you're a child and you see violence being used in the home then you are more likely to think that is acceptable outside the home too.

"In about 45% of domestic violence cases there are children present, and you imagine what effect that has."

House said that he wanted "refuges for offenders" as a possible solution in cases where a wife might be unhappy about testifying and where leaving the home to seek protection might not be an option. He added: "There are reasons why victims are not coming forward, sometimes it's economic: the man might be put in prison and there is no longer a wage coming in. It may be the case that the woman still loves the man, and we get the evidence and then we find that the woman will not support the prosecution.

"We should be looking at initiatives to take the offender out of the situation so that, even if there is not a criminal prosecution, the husband can be the subject of counselling and can help confront their own behaviour. We should look at shelters for the offenders as well as the victims."

House added that he was also keen to use neighbours to help observe dangerous situations, a tactic known as "Cocoon-Watch".

It would involve, with the consent of the victim, briefing nearby neighbours about what had happened and asking them to alert the police if they saw any further cause for concern.

Lily Greenan, manager of Scottish Women's Aid, said:

"In relation to perpetrator programmes, we would like to know the specifics of how the chief constable imagines this working in practice. There have been concerns raised by the Women's Aid in England - where these programmes have been used before - and we would seek reassurances on those points from Stephen House. Any initiative that works with perpetrators has to be put the safety of women and children at its centre."

Michèle Burman, Professor of Criminology at Glasgow University, said: "Any kind of initiative which allows the woman and the children to stay in the house is something we need to support. And often it's women who want the man to be removed. However, any time away has to be more than just a little time-out in order to sober up. There would have to be other solutions."

John Lamont, Tory spokesman on community safety, said: "There should be zero tolerance for domestic violence. Perpetrators of this terrible crime should be punished to the full extent of the law, up to and including a prison sentence.

"If, upon their release back into society, their rehabilitation is better served by use of these facilities, then that is something to consider. But at no point must these 'safehouses' ever become a substitute for justice."

A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: "It is very encouraging to hear of the focus that Chief Constable House places on the work required to tackle domestic abuse. The Scottish Government would be interested in discussing this initiative and others he has highlighted further in light of his experience and interest in this issue. I am sure we share the common objective of dealing effectively with the perpetrators and ensuring the safety of the women and children affected by domestic abuse."

The full article contains 750 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 December 2007 9:29 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Law and Order
 
1

2Right,

On Location 02/12/2007 01:23:43

Wonder if he will also call for refuge for wrongly convicted who at present are basically just flung on our streets with no help whatsoever to adapt, Sometimes after serving years behind bars through no fault of their own.
A quote from John McManus of MOJO: Even contestants going to and from the Big Brother House on television are given counseling.
Miscarriages of justice are just abandoned on society with many scars.

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/forum1.php

2

Kipling,

02/12/2007 01:56:23

It doesn't surprise me the police using the term "refuge" for the perpetrators. After all, the police record on turning on the victim is well known.

But if something like a managed separation and re-education of the men to learn to control their violence can be done with some success it's to be applauded, surely. One attitude that will have to be addressed is that the men think they have a right to hit the woman to establish their dominance or have their way. It'll be interesting to see how that's changed for the better -- and permanently.

3

Charles Linskaill,

Chairman for the 'Babies-Union' 02/12/2007 02:01:18

Cut their 'B***'s off!
It is the year MMVII now!
NO excuses to act like, 'cave-men'!

4

somerferg,

oz 02/12/2007 02:23:45

# 3 - in the interest of fairness lets remember that in cases of domestic violence the VAST majority of perpetrators are MALE not female.

5

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/12/2007 03:17:21

Hello Somerferg Downunder,


I see. You are correct that the majority of domestic violence between heterosexual couples is perpetrated by the men, but your statement necessarily implies that the very same crime is either of less significance, or not deserving of the same condemnation, when women perpetrators.

Just what kind of message do you think that sends to society in general, that you and no few others (usually rad feminists), believe in special rights for various classes of people, rather than the Rule of Law for all concerned?

Further, it must be pointed out, that the dirty little secret concerning Lesbian domestic violence is quickly and quietly swept under the rug, by Rad Feminist Organizations (such as the USA's National Organization for Women), the Mass Media, Politically Correct Academia, and feckless professional politicians!!!!!

Why?

Because there is a Politically Correct dog in the fight, which obviates ANY responsibility by women in virtually any arena of law, while at the same time, CONDEMNING ALL men as the perpetual aggressors in all instances.

This can be seen quite clearly in divorce cases, where children are awarded to the care of the mother, almost regardless of her fitness (this includes habitual drug and alcohol abuse).

Throughout American Universities, there are "Women's Studies" (what a ridiculous misnomer that is for an artificially created 'discipline') course which actually have as course work, the public listing of male students' names, as POTENTIAL RAPISTS!

The grounds for such accusations on these public lists which are posted all over campuses?

The students are men.

That's it. That's all the 'evidence' which Rad Fems in Universities need, to 'prove' that all men are rapists. The ability to stand up and urinate has been made nearly a capital crime!

The real shocker is in instances of consensual sexual liasons: both a female and male student get drunk,

6

Charles MN,

02/12/2007 03:20:04

#5 somerfeg

Have you any statistics to back up that statement?

According to:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime...

domestic violence "will affect 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men in their lifetime". Given that men are less likely to report being abused it doesn't look to me that there is a VAST difference.

7

W Smith,

Middle East 02/12/2007 03:20:21

More nonsense from the police - why doesnt this guy Mr House not wear make-up like all the other clowns?

No doubt the loony left in Glasgow will love this guy.

Whats next? - a 'refuge' for muslim terrorists?

What about a terrorist 'amnesty' where the local muslim fanatics can hand in their propane gas bottles?

8

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/12/2007 03:26:45

Campus 'rapes' continued.

Should the woman be 'iffy' about the level of her discontent with the sexual encounter, the male student may end up 'just' having to face an on campus inquisition by Administration Officials.

He could be required to attend 're-education' classes, forced to take feminist classes, where men are daily ridiculed for being men, or he could be suspended for a period of time AND be required to take the re-education courses AND the feminist classes, or he could be outright expelled.

Should he be allowed to remain in attendance at the university, he is forever branded as a RAPIST, despite never having been so officially charged by the legal system or tried in a court of law. The 'date rape' 'conviction' is on his permanent record.

The reason I raise this point is straight forward: men are getting well and truly tired of being pigeon holed by Rad Fems and are beginning to take back their lives. We will no longer allow the radicals to have their way, stripping us of our rights; our rights to our educations, our families, our children, or our dignity.

What you suggested by your statement about women being a mere minority in domestic violence, hides a mountain the size of Everest, in discrimination, bigotry, and anti-male fascism.

We shall no longer allow ourselves to be made targets by disgruntled rad fems who can't get over the fact that they can't urinate standing up!!!!

Either we're all equal or we're not. And if we're not, then we'll gladly take that avenue as well, lawyers in tow and the wherewithal to stay the course until victory is achieved.

PC is alive and well in both Great Britain and Oz, and men in both countries had better wake up and smell the animosity from Rad Fems, which are directed at them, and their ability to see equal treatment under the law.

Cheers from the Rockies

9

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 02/12/2007 03:32:28

Hello All,

Men who are actually physcially abusing their spouses, need to be beaten to a bloody pulp with a good section of 2x4 or a cricket bat.

There are ONLY two reasons why a man may strike a woman:

1. She comes at him with a gun.
2. She comes at him with a knife.

Other than that, there are NO reasons for a man to strike a woman.

In the case of number 2, if he is a man at all, he SHOULD be able to take the knife away from her.

Political Correctness is literally destroying all our Western Societies, and the Loons on the Rad Left are happy to get it done.

The only bright side, if you can call it that considering the horrific nature of it all, is that when the Jihadists actually strike using Ricin, VX, Anthrax, and/or a Dirty Selenium Bomb, the Politically Correct Crowd will be hit, proportionately WORSE than clear thinking people.

In the long run, the lemmings will find their Great Body of Water and those of us who are clear thinkers and survive such attacks, will once again put things right.

A heck of a cost to bring common sense and sanity back to society though, won't it be?

Cheers from the Rockies

10

Cincinnatus,

The Capital 02/12/2007 04:28:59

This preposterous assumption in this deeply flawed argument is that because men lash out they are soley to blame. Leaving the woman as the poor wee victim. In some cases they might be, in most cases both parties are culpable, yes violence is wrong and so is the vindictive shaming that leads to the provocation in the first place and unless that is equally samed socially then simply blaming the man will not resolve the issues it will prolong and harden violence and violent verbal abuse from both parties.

This proposal ignores the dynamic in relationships, is cliched and fundamentally ignorant.

Counselling to "sort" the "perpertators" sounds like a hellish Orwellian idea. Counselling is not coercive and can only work voluntarily, let's put the onus on both partners otherwise you are tinkering at the edges of an endemic problem that this lack of INITIATIVE merely reinforces.

A Policeman thinking counselling can be foisted on the man - you sir a prize idiot!

11

Yane,

Melbourne 02/12/2007 05:26:52

I thought that language had changed & it was now called family violence.
"Domestic" violence sounds like it's "domesticated" violence — as if it's not as bad as it can sometimes be.

12

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for any of them. 02/12/2007 06:23:25

Called prisons, aren't they? (Mind you wives can be very annoying sometimes; something to do with hormones may be? It takes two to quarrel).

13

Connor,

02/12/2007 07:25:40

#5 The majority of reported victims of domestic violence are women, but certainly not exclusively. There is research which shows that the number of male victims in such cases is rising, but remains under-reported.
And while I'm on the subject, what about the new civil partnerships where, in spite of the picture of domestic bliss that would be painted by the PC brigade, violence takes place as well. What would the new Chief Constable propose there. probably in the too hard to do basket, or hadn't he even thought of that!

14

an interested party,

02/12/2007 07:26:14

how the 'domestic violence' starts and who then reports a crime is often the same perpetrator.

15

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 02/12/2007 07:32:50

There is know rhyme or reason to assault your partner. Just be a man, and WALK AWAY!!!!!

16

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 02/12/2007 08:08:06

The 3 major causes of domestic arguments are probably money, alcohol, and sexual jealousy / philandering. Add the age-old Venus vs Mars behavioural incompatibilities, the normal male vs female sexual dimorphism and the near-obsolescence of male physical strength in the modern workplace, and you have a recipe for wife-beating.

There is no magic solution, but Scotland needs to significantly raise the standards of living and of education of its poorest people, and young people need to be taught about the problems they might face in a marriage, and how these problems can be resolved without resorting to violence. Traditionally a couple who are about to be married are advised by a minister or wise person. I strongly suggest that such couples are shown the shocking consequences of domestic violence, and are told how to seek help before this happens. Men, in particular, do not disclose their emotions to close male friends, but bottle them explosively. Men need to be told before marriage that they can approach their cousellor at any time, in total confidence, to tackle marriage issues. As a humanist I am ashamed to say that humanists have utterly failed to replace the role of church ministers in this respect, as in so many others.

17

Helen,

02/12/2007 08:48:56

Rulesbutnotrulers you clearly haven't got a clue about domestic violence. It doesn't take two to quarrel, some people could start a fight in an empty room. This is not about quarrels anyway...domestic violence is not quarreling, it's about one person exercising power over another in a physically or psychologically violent way. I know people who have been victims of domestic violence and they can suffer for things like the evening meal being put on the table late or children being too noisy when he wants to watch television.
Violent men don't need refuges, they need lengthy prison sentences, heavy fines and restraining orders that work.

18

Boy Wonder,

02/12/2007 09:06:33

Women need to learn to walk away from spousal abuse. They need to report it and have a court order taken out against the violent spouse, that keeps him away from wife and child ... because if he's a wife-beater, you can safely bet, he's beating the kids too!

It might take two to quarrel, #13 ... but very often, the male is just an arrogant SOB who treats his family like property and doesn't tolerate them questioning his commands!

Domestic abuse must end. Men must learn that violence is wrong, especially in the family!

19

whatsyourname,

02/12/2007 09:25:19

Well they have 800 consentration camps built in the USA and 5 in Canada that we know of, I would send the site on net but they have band the page. so how many do you supose are in Scotland and England, they call it refuge camp.?you allow this and tasers, the contry is going to be comunist as is the world, I dont agree with abuse but refuge camp come on.

20

whatsyourname,

02/12/2007 09:35:58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P-hvPJPTi4 found another site have a look.

21

Connor,

02/12/2007 10:33:02

"Violent men don't need refuges, they need lengthy prison sentences, heavy fines and restraining orders that work." #18 Helen, I quite agree with you and there is little doubt that in the vast majority of cases the victim of physical abuse is female. The gap between the sexes in physical abuse and mental abuse is narrower in mental abuse.
I have a friend who has been subjected to violent attacks by his wife and he was hospitalised on 2 of many occasions. The support services for him are almost non-existent and the perception of the male victim are just as presumptious as female. I trust your recommendation about jailing men applies equally to women.

22

Charles Linskaill,

02/12/2007 10:43:35

#22. Connor #18 Helen Re.
"Violent men don't need refuges, they need lengthy prison sentences, heavy fines and restraining orders that work"
NO THEY DONT!!......... TOO EXPENSIVE
AT OUR EPENSE!!
Chemical Castration or as I suggested in #4
Why Should WE Pay for their behavior Problems???

23

paul the binman,

02/12/2007 10:54:12

You will also find in most cases the Police will assume that the woman is the victim.I know of a case where a man of over 6 feet tall was standing in his home bleeding from a face wound given to him by his smaller wife.The woman in question had a history of being violent to her husband when she was drunk.The police arrested the man and tried to charge him.It was only when the wife was sober that she remembered what she had done and forced the police to drop the charges.
The concept that only the man is capabile of being violent in this day and age is far out of date,we only have to read the papers every day to see the new violent female,"laddets"the press call them.Funny how we can dream up nicknames for dangerous acts......

24

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 02/12/2007 10:58:35

Re #22 and #24 : earlier this year, here in Aberdeen there was a well-publicised case of a wife who beat up her husband and left him needing hospital treament for a head injury.

In itself that probably isn't anything unusual, and wouldn't normally have warrented the publicity that the case got. What DID make it unusual was that it was their wedding night; and not only did she beat up her husband, she trashed a hotel room into the bargain. I suspect that the latter part is the main reason that the case actually came to court.

People who try to portray domestic abuse as "something that men do to women" have got their heads stuck firmly in the sand. As for the case I mentioned, the abuser received a trivial, non-custodial, sentence; and, incredibly, the couple stayed together.

25

Tweedmouth,

02/12/2007 11:41:55

Setting aside the actual issue of domestic violence here - (which the vast majority of the population would agree is appalling) does anyone else find the use of a posed 'violent' photograph using models to simulate a man beating a woman offensive?

This is supposed to be a leading quality newspaper - not a 'national enquirer' type scandal sheet. The utterly tasteless posed photo smacks of those equally tasteless and utterly useless posters and TV ads showing battered women - saying 'zero tolerance'.

Any civilised human being already has zero tolerance for this kind of appalling behaviour. The beasts who do beat their partners are not likely to be influenced in any way by a moral poster or TV ad.
Still - it does provide jobs for the feminist activists - though mostly for the ad agencies.

26

reynard,

Borders 02/12/2007 11:43:24

Abuse - whether it be physical, sexual or emotional is wrong no matter who does it. However, official statistics does show that the vast majority of violent domestic abuse remains male to female. In response to Neanderthal75 *6 - Scottish Women's Aid does recognise abuse in lesbian relationships and helps women who are subject to abuse from female partners - so its NOT swept under the "rug" and ignored in Scotland. Sorry to burst your rather vitriolic argument there. To be honest the psychological abuse from controlling partners seems to do the worse damage. Very little is reported to police as no actual crime is being committed by telling your partner she is rubbish and a bad mother etc etc over and over again till even the most confident woman starts doubting themselves. We would all like to believe human psychology is simple but it isn't so easy just saying "she should leave" and doesn't take into account how the human mind works - it takes a lot to just up sticks - uproot from family , friends, your job, your kids school, their friends etc. Try imagining doing this yourself. Many women try and contain the situation - walking on egg shells to keep the peace in the hope things will change or in the hope that their partner will go back to the person they fell in love with in the first place. A complex and horrible subject that we can't just give glib answers to.
There are over 40 Women's Aid groups in Scotland alone - who run dozens of refuges - and they are all full. Thats a lot of women and kids.

27

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 02/12/2007 11:54:22

Re reynard (#27) : "To be honest the psychological abuse from controlling partners seems to do the worse damage"

Is it accepted that women have as much a propensity for this as men have?

28

Mcsnagpile,

02/12/2007 12:54:10

What amazes me is that a couple of tackety booted polis think they can solve domestic violence problems by some sort of group therapy. The bottom line is-- nature in its wisdom has decided to program diametrically opposite creatures to come together for the continuation of the species. Not surprisingly, now and again a cat fight entails-the man being the stronger usually comes off more the worse. If he complains about a missing ear, the response is a kick up the jaksie

29

Kobi,

02/12/2007 13:31:41

#27

"There are over 40 Women's Aid groups in Scotland alone - who run dozens of refuges - and they are all full. Thats a lot of women and kids."


And there are NO refuges for men in Scotland. That's a lot of unmet demand.

30

Homo Sapiens,

02/12/2007 13:58:13

DV is a scurge that cannot and should not be tolerated. Nor should sexism in any way or form be acceptable or tolerable. As a Democrarcy, with Human and Civil Rights, the rights of ALL should be protected in equal measure.

Fact: DV is perpetrated almost in equal proportions by men and women! 43% by a Male on his female partner and 41% by females on their male partners (the balance are male-on-male, and female-on-female partners). The source of this report is the UK Police Crime Reports. These reports also state that Female-on-Male DV is substantially under reported (at an estimated multiple of 10 to 1 compared to male on female underreporting).

Yet Feminists and women's organisations will have you believe that DV violence is a "gender" issue, one type of offence engaged by mostly by men.

Furthermore, while there several hundred "REFUGE" homes (mostly government funded) for women to be protected from DV, there is only a single Refuge for Men in the whole country (privately funded).

The politically expedient, misandrist support for FALSE "women's issues" by the Police should be stopped! The Equality Commission should be called upon to censure the Police, and the feminist and other women's organisation that are committing a hate crime by singling out men as the perpetrators of violence!

31

Anthony,

Glasgow 02/12/2007 14:12:44

Once more, the police interfering in politics. The article states that men would be sent to these refuges as an alternative to the woman testifiying. So, it would seem that this is to be done without any conviction against the man. The police would act as judge and jury, and based on nothing more than the word of one person against another, the man would have his liberties infringed, when he may have done nothing wrong.

This is an unholy alliance that we have seen at work before, between senior police officers, and an extremist element within the feminist movement - the 'venomists'. It is gender based law. It is illegal discrimination against men. It's wrong, and the police should not be driving what is a political agenda in this way.

32

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Ontario 02/12/2007 14:14:18

#19 Boy Wonder

I agree with everything you say but when the wife "walks away" from the violent and untenable situation it is usually to a shelter or "refuge" when she rightfully abandons/flees the family home and the she and her children devolve into a cycle of poverty until she can get legal possession of the family home of her and her children, IF she is entitled to it.

Many times the husband has the financial resources to fight legally the rightful claims of the mother/wife/girlfriend and these cases can drag on for months, if not years, and the mother and children are in an unstable situation until the whole mess is worked out.

It is a fact of life and I think abusive and violent men are unmanly cowards with serious mental problems who should, as a matter of course, spend a requisite time incarcerated to ponder their anti-social and destructive behaviour IF they are truly guilty of the abuse and violence.

33

Um Bungo,

02/12/2007 14:18:03

Women are just as bad. They sit there nagging and ridiculing the man. In the end they get a slap.

It is okay for a woman to murder a man that has been treating her badly for years, it is not okay in the courts for a man to slap a woman who has been winding him up for years.

More inequalities.

If the woman is a useless sponge the man is never allowed to leave with the kids, Sexist.

34

Neil Ferguson,

Not important 02/12/2007 14:19:43

I think in some cases educating some men with a horse whip would be more appropriate. My sister was married to a brutal,violent drunk for years! After the last beating, she ended up in the hospital emergency room.She at last listened to me and left that SOB while she still had her life intact. I have zero tolerance for anyone who beats their spouse or children or other persons in their lives. He was remarried to another woman who obviously didn't take it and broke a large dinner platter over his thick head and put him in the hospital.Then she filed charges and the court finally put him where he belongs in prison.

35

Dr Katharine Morrison,

Mauchline 02/12/2007 14:25:57

The provision of alternative accommodation and counselling for both men and women who threaten or who are violent to their live in partners is to be welcomed.

If a route out the dysfunctional, over controlling behaviour can be provided perhaps this would encourage the abused person to contact social services or the police at an earlier stage.

Domestic violence tends to escalate over time. The victim's self esteem becomes quickly eroded and any children in the home suffer at least severe emotional distress if not actual battering as well.

I have seen injunctions to avoid the marital home ignored because there was no where else for the person to go.

The sooner the person who is being abused or who does the abusing gets help the better for the whole family.

36

Urban Guerrilla,

02/12/2007 14:45:33

#37, good to hear this, but why didn't she leave him long before?

37

Mop,

Scotland 02/12/2007 15:25:18

Young People need educating early about domestic violence/relationship issues.

We also need educating about our attitudes to each other and I also think that violence in the media has to stop glorifying the terrible things that people do to each other.

Look around you we live in a more violent society than ever before with young people (not all) thinking its "big" to carry weapons and gie sumday a doin.We wonder why we have problems?

People dont verbalise anymore they threaten.

38

Half day closing,

Edinburgh 02/12/2007 16:09:49

It's amazing that no matter the location of the forum, how often you find people using it to spout utter nonsense and as a platform for their own unconnected and irrelevant thoughts, politics, view points and anti this and anti that diatribe.

Talk about domestic violence please and any other topic on this site but leave all the other stuff that has nothing to do with it alone. The CC put forward a thought, an option, nothing more. It needs to be looked at along with a whole host of other options to try and if not prevent, at least lessen the chances of this violence occurring and lessen it's impact after it has happened.

39

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 02/12/2007 17:59:17

Re Restalrig High (#43) : "Talk about domestic violence please and any other topic on this site but leave all the other stuff that has nothing to do with it alone. "

Virtually all the postings in this column are about domestic violence. Where's the problem?

40

Barry.,

02/12/2007 18:14:07

Great idea. We could call these "refuges" for violent abusers "prisons".

41

Isabel,

02/12/2007 18:42:25

Regardless of whether it is the male or female who is responsible for domestic violence, there must be zero tolerance. As other posters have pointed out, it is not just men who are violent.

If there is DV in a family, children accept this as being normal behaviour and go on to become abusers themselves and so the problem continues.

It is worthwhile trying to find new ways of dealing with DV offenders but if the offenders who don't mend their ways, tough sentencing is needed.

42

NorT,

Edinburgh 02/12/2007 18:53:11

What about all the men that are victims of domestic violence. There are as many of them as there are women but you never hear them mentioned.

43

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 02/12/2007 19:02:30

Re Barry (#45) : prisons ought to be places for people who have been tried and found guilty.

On the other hand, these "refuges" will be for men who, as yet, are only under suspicion; or, as the article puts it, "where a wife might be unhappy about testifying".

44

Kipling,

@DoomRay 02/12/2007 19:38:54

With all these comments about violence from women upon men and visa versa. There's one difference. Women are simply not as strong as men, and a slap from a woman is laughable when compared with a slap from a man. Second, there's an argument for training the men as well as their sons to learn to manage their strength.

45

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 02/12/2007 19:51:29

I'm constantly bemused by the mistake made by so many when they trivialise domestic abuse (or intimate partner abuse) as some sort of show dance.

I'm equally bemused by the need some seem to have to either shoot the messenger or blame the victim.

Why is it you chaps feel compelled to propound the myth of false allegations of abuse or rape? Where's your evidence, other than some anecdote from some mate's third cousin at the Crown on a Friday booze-up? What are you so afraid of? A mirror?

Are you so unaware of the gender inequality here, so uneasy in your masculine power, that you feel the need to shout down the cries for help? Do you feel so displaced since the 1950's, when oral contraception was developed and women had a reliable means of control their own fertility, that you no longer know where you fit in society? Or does it date back to an earlier time, say 1928, when suffrage became universal?

Get over yourselves, boys. Saying 'no' isn't abuse nor is it incitement to violence.

46

Pilrig,

Livingston 02/12/2007 19:51:42

Neanderthal 75 - you don't like the gals so why not stick with the guys ?

47

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 02/12/2007 19:52:54

Kipling (#49) might like to (re)-read my earlier posting at #25.

Strength is irrelevant when a weapon is used, such as a kitchen knife, scissors, a skewer, or boiling water.

48

Pilrig,

Livingston 02/12/2007 19:55:56

13 - yeah it takes two to quarrel (obviously - doh !) but we're talking about one spouse/partner assaulting the other. No excuse for it whatever the culprit's gender.

49

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 02/12/2007 20:07:46

Re Caitlin Thenew (#50) : "Why is it you chaps feel compelled to propound the myth of false allegations of abuse or rape? "

There's no answer to such an obviously loaded question.

"Where's your evidence,"

A former leading figure in the SNP, Jim Fairlie, was accused by his daughter of sexually abusing her. Conclusive evidence was produced that he couldn't have abused her in the alleged circumstances, and she has since accepted that these were false memories derived from a discredited form of therapy.

That's just one case. There's lots of others if Thenew can be bothered to look them up.

50

Ben Arty,

02/12/2007 20:30:04

No-one has picked up on the Chief Constable's comments about the cycle of violence, which are seriously misleading, and could be dangerous. There is no evidence WHATSOEVER that boys who see their fathers abusing their mothers are likely to view this as OK and therefore will grow up to perpetrate domestic abuse themselves. In fact, many boys who witness the abuse of their mothers by their fathers, like their sisters, try to intervene, and are themselves hurt in doing so. And many such boys take, and keep, a solemn vow that they will never treat any woman as their father has treated their mother.

The "cycle of violence" is a dangerous myth, because it makes boys afraid that they cannot determine their own future behaviour, and because it gives some perpetrators of domestic abuse an excuse fot not taking responsibility for their own crimes.
The Chief Constable should enrol, and quickly, on one of the excellent training programmes run by Scottish Women's Aid at Tulliallan Police College - all Scottish Police Officers are now given this training, and it would be appropriate for new members of Scottish Forces, however senior, to be as well trained as their most junior probationers

51

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia , Canada 02/12/2007 21:12:45

And a "free" (and compulsory) sterilization (men and women) for those who seriously harm and abuse children.

Oh..YES...NOT politically correct... but look at the suffering it would prevent in society.

52

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 02/12/2007 21:36:07

Hiya, Watson in Aberdeen (#54)

Phew! Someone capable of recognising a loaded question. Perhaps my point is that the issue IS loaded with myth, prejudice, ignorance and socio-political slants, not to mention rhetoric.

Let's play with your post for a moment. If we were to isolate and decontextualise your statements, there'd be a very different argument:

"That's just one case."

I'd love to know when "lots" becomes statistically or socially significant.

I can think of "lots" of cases of domestic abuse against women that end not in the ignominious revelation that a therapist awoke false memories in a patient, but in their deaths. On average, 2 such deaths per week are recorded in the UK.

And there's also a case for arguing that we don't need "lots" before we act. The death at the hands of a father or partner of one child is one too many, let alone the 3 in recent memory: Caleb Ness, Danielle Reid and Kennedy MacFarlane.

Perhaps you, Wilson, would like to read what WHO, Amnesty International, the EHRC have to say about male violence against women and children....

53

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia, Canada. 02/12/2007 22:22:55

It is ALWAYS interesting.... how..... given ANY social problem..................................
people would rather "flap their yap" as is done on these and other posts ..rather than join... and DEMAND effective action from our laws (and politicians)

54

LancsTory,

Lancs 02/12/2007 23:09:38

As usual; more people loving to see what they wrote so they write as much as they can spouting edicts, demands and oaths along the way.

What disturbs me about this article is this creeping acceptance that somehow the man is always to blame for the domestic abuse even though the stats rarely bear this out. It doesn't suit the agendas of the hippie feminist tree-hugging lefties so, of course, they'll support any agenda that unfairly empowers women and tilts the balance of justice.

Under this constable's plans a woman only has to lift the phone and her husband is spirited away to a gulag somewhere to get re-educated and brainwashed with hippie feminist diatribes. I can't be the only one who finds that scary.

I've read lots of talk about castration but to me the only ones who need castrating are the lefty hippies who are now preaching this kind of feminist pish in schools. It won't be long before we have a generation of un-masculine girlyfied men who'll be made to feel guilty for their natural instincts.

55

Kobi,

02/12/2007 23:55:04

#49

"With all these comments about violence from women upon men and visa versa. There's one difference. Women are simply not as strong as men, and a slap from a woman is laughable when compared with a slap from a man."

Er, according to #27 from a woman's viewpoint: "To be honest the psychological abuse from controlling partners seems to do the worse damage". Which makes the relative strengths of men v women irrelevant.

56

Kobi,

02/12/2007 23:58:05

#50

When did you stop beating your partner?

As judging by your antiquated and outdated views, you clearly are repressing something.

Male on female violence is wrong. Female on male violence is wrong.

Although judging by your views, I have doubts if you even accept that the latter exists.

57

Kobi,

03/12/2007 00:01:53

#57

Perhaps you, would like to read what WHO, Amnesty International, the EHRC have to say about female violence against women and children....

Oh, I forgot, you can't because they largely pretend that it does not exist. And men are so frightened by a female dominated society that they are afraid to report what violence does go on, as they know they will not be believed.

And BTW, most violence on children is perpetrated by women, not men.

58

Kipling,

Picking the arrow heads out of my head 03/12/2007 00:50:31

#60 Kofi #52 CW.
I was not referring to psychological damage, which can be horrendous in a trapped relationship, particularly for a child (who is truly captive as a dependant) let alone between adults. I was talking about physical violence. Whilst women do use weapons with respect to men, I would suggest that this is not in the same proportion as men physically threatening a woman. And of course the reason a woman might use a weapon is because she doesn't have that physical might.

59

Trade-wind,

USA 03/12/2007 02:07:40

It is time to get real. First women are not to day the frail wall flowers of past years. Oh, sure most times men are bigger and stronger. But, tell that to the employer who say she can't have the job because she is not big enough or strong enough. They wanted equality now they have it. Thats the point. Today girls are being raised to be like the boys. Just as freckin mouthy and just as freckin irritating. Now they are put into marriages where not enough money flows or there is constant jibbing at each other. Now the girl/woman wants to be treated like a frail defenceless little darling. Wrong. The womens libbers won the day and now girls wear pants, look like boys, act like boys and in the heat of an argument get hit like boys. They hit back like boys to... I have no love for acts of violence one against the other no matter which way it is directed, but this issue goes both ways equally. Many forms of violence exist, just because I don't leave a welt on you doesn't mean I didn't hit you. Women hit men in ways that are considered torture and against the law if done to an enemy combatant. No they should not be given a free pass while men get stoned by the gathering crowd. Equality in all things is what they wanted now they have it. If you look at the mistreatment by the man look at the mistreatment of the man by the woman and you will be on the way too solving why it happened. Stopping it will never happen. best case is we bring the numbers down to a minimal number and work to keep it there.
Scotland yesterday! Scotland today! Scotland forever!

60

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 03/12/2007 02:36:16

# 61 & 62

What's your point, Kobi? Other than to demonstrate that you are clearly unnerved and defensive....

Ah, all becomes clear: "Seriously deluded and best ignored" (Kobi / 10:39pm 5 Oct 2007).

61

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 03/12/2007 06:22:23

Hello Pilrig,


Yet more drivel from you, instead of some actual in depth thought process!

Well, you can only work with the limited resources with which you were born.

Pity.

I still like women, I just don't trust most of them, not with my heart, my wallet (which isn't anything, I'm poorer than dirt and a physical cripple), or my future: the Rad Feminists have so polluted the mindsets of women in the USA, that finding a real woman of independent thought, rather than politically correct mantras, is like search for hen's teeth!!!

Oh yes, my skills in hunting, fishing, and tracking (when my body allows me those luxuries anymore), were taught to me by my GRANDMOTHER O wise acre thou! My Gramps didn't have the patience to teach anyone much of anything, but my Gramm DID.

Her friends were other powerful women I learned from growing up, and THEY were no nonsense, strong willed, and INDEPENDENT married women, who were NEVER 'wall flowers' or 'frail' at anything. Were they alive today, they'd laugh at the Rad Fems for the mindless twits they truly are!

So you know what you can do with your Politically Correct ninny mindset, and please, do it quickly.

Cheers from the Rockies

62

Kobi,

03/12/2007 08:52:28

#66

I'm constantly bemused by the mistake made by so many wimmin when they trivialise domestic abuse by wimmin (or intimate partner abuse) as some sort of show dance.

I'm equally bemused by the need some wimmin seem to have to either shoot the messenger or blame the victim.

Are you so unaware of the gender inequality here, so uneasy in your feminine power, that you feel the need to shout down the cries for help?

63

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 03/12/2007 11:30:14

#66

Kobi, pal, thank you! You bring to mind Mohandas Gandhi ("Imitation is the sincerest flattery".)

64

Kobi,

03/12/2007 11:51:33

#69

Still ignoring the substantive points being made.

65

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 03/12/2007 12:52:14

# 70 Pass me your microscope, Kobi. Despite the electrons, mine seems to have too few dioptres to find your substantive points.

66

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 03/12/2007 13:06:15

Hardly surprising there's so much debate when there's so much distance in understanding and definitions, and a good few miles 'twixt Aberdeen and Traprain.

My thrust (Traprain Law is a volcanic laccolith after all) is humanist not sexist, and neither misanthropic nor misogynist....

67

grantcat,

Old Town, Edinburgh 04/12/2007 00:08:15

What a poor journalist Murdo McLeod is. He obviously did not understand the press release. Cheif Constable House is calling for bail hostels for men who would normally be bailed away from their partners house but the partner is unable (for what ever reason) to resist her partner therefore negating the bail conditions. Being bailed to bail hostel would mean he would be supervised until he appeared in court. There are issues about whether you could offer a programme of work to someone who is pleading not guilty - as most perpetrators on bail are tending to do. However if they pled guilty they could be on probation with a condition to stay in the hostel until they could demonstrate they were being responsible.

68

Kornelius,

Planet Fatherless 04/12/2007 16:38:22

#27, Reynard.

I was a victim of DV from a woman and she was very violent.
My biggest mistake was not reporting the acts to the police.... then again they would probably do nothing to help me......Its not equality that some women want, it is dominance!

Why does Womens Aid and their refuges get so much publicity and funding while the male equivalent gets zilch?

Societies view is that all women are angels, Aye right!

Please Help the poor children and protect them from the abusive mothers out there now!

69

,

04/12/2007 16:42:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1200899, Article id was mapped to record!
70

Kornelius,

Planet Fatherless 04/12/2007 16:50:13

# 50 & 57 Catlin,

Well dear girl you do have a chip on your shoulder don't you?

The sufraggetes got the vote by peaceful protest and look how far we have come.

Good news on the horizon: there is a man contraceptive pill now and I would strongly advise all men to get stocked up unless..........you like being tricked into having family with someone you don't want to! Meal ticket or what?

Catlin I see your comment:
"The death at the hands of a father or partner of one child is one too many" shows your true colours when you can't even bring yourself to use the word "Mother". You are a pathetic contributor to this forum, go forth and multiply.

71

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 04/12/2007 17:29:31

# 76. Kornelius, Planet Fatherless

No chip, Kornie, a burden shouldered fair and square, one which all responsible, aware and informed adult members of society share.

Peaceful protests and suffragettes?

FYI:

"The term suffragette comes from the word suffrage, which means the right to vote. Suffragettes carried out direct action such as chaining themselves to railings, setting fire to the contents of mailboxes, and smashing windows. One suffragette, Emily Davison, died after she stepped out in front of the King's horse at the Epsom Derby of 1913. Many of her fellow suffragettes were imprisoned and went on hunger strikes, during which they were restrained and forcibly fed (see Force-feeding)." [Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_the_Un...

Even the church in Whitekirk (East Lothian) was the target of suffragettes, who burned out the rafters of one of the its apses.

You obviously feel hard done by, and that's a shame. Why you demonstrate such vitriol is another matter. Name calling is a rather "pathetic" device...

72

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 04/12/2007 22:22:49

Just wondering how many have taken the opportunity to look at Women's Aid's website....

http://www.womensaid.org.uk/page.asp?section=000100010013...

73

Kobi,

05/12/2007 16:23:39

#78

And why exactly would beaten and abused men, seek help from a Womens Aid website, when the whole ethos of many who run and support that organisation, is mistrust and hatred of men? Part of the problem is that people like you don't even seem to accept that female violence against men and children is a major and under-reported problem?

74

Carcc,

UK 06/12/2007 01:07:56

Perhaps post 78, displaying a link to women's aid, was posted because the article featured happens to be about violence commited against WOMEN. Many here seem to have forgotten this. Just because domestic violence against men seems to be on the increase doesn't make the issue of abused women ANY less serious or widespread.

In fact cases of female-on-male violence could be a consequence of the western trend of females COPYING male behaviour, possibly lacking self esteem to form their own identity in today's society. Indeed aren't female 'happy slapping' gangs a fairly recent phenomenon. An unfortunate symptom of women imitating thugs? Male violence, and violence against women has unfortunately been present for centuries. Female aggression has begun to become more socially acceptable.

Male on female exceeds female on male violence. This is not including some countries in which given the especially low status of women, abuse of women would obviously vastly outnumber that of men. For such women aid and shelters are surely invaluable.

In reference to abuse of children, it might be worth remembering that paedophiles are usually male.

Speaking generally of violent tendancies, most drunken fights are commited by men and fortunately for men you don't need to worry about being sexually assulted on the street, followed home or have drugs put into your drinks! You have the advantage of being the physically stronger sex.
Count yourselves lucky.

75

Kobi,

06/12/2007 09:08:04

#80

"the article featured happens to be about violence commited against WOMEN"

No, the article was about domestic violence, and the problem with the report is that it ignored, as usual, the massive amount of violence by women against men and children. Most of the posters on this thread have objected to the fact that such female on male violence is largely ignored.


"In fact cases of female-on-male violence could be a consequence of the western trend of females COPYING male behaviour"

So even when woman are beating men, it's still the man's fault? Do you know how pathetic that sounds? Try reversing it, and you have the age-old justification for male violence on women, she made me do it.


"Male on female exceeds female on male violence."

Probably. You don't know though, as femlae violence on women is massively under-reported. At best, that statement is an educated guess.


"In reference to abuse of children, it might be worth remembering that paedophiles are usually male."

True. However most acts of violence on children, not involving a sexual motive, are carried out by women.


"most drunken fights are commited by men"

True. But on men. The biggest recipients of violence are men, not women. For example, in the US, more men are raped than women (I say rape, although technically I know that it is termed sexual assault).


"fortunately for men you don't need to worry about being sexually assulted on the street, followed home or have drugs put into your drinks"

That is not exclusively something that happens to women. It happens to gay men as well.

The objection to the article and to posters like you is that you seem to happy to ignore female on male violence. it is that attitude that means that the vast majority of such violence goes unreported, that there are no publicly funded Men's Aid refuges in

76

Carcc,

UK 06/12/2007 11:39:54

A lack of aid for male victims of violence or any under-reporting of cases of female on male violence should be addressed and brought into the public eye.

But why do posters feel that they have to attack the presence of aid directed towards women.

An 'educated guess' that victims of domestic violence are predominately female should surely mean a predominance of female centred facilities.

I don't see how this in itself means that cases of violence against men are necessarily being suppressed or ignored.

Violence against men COULD be unreported be we KNOW that violence against women is still big a problem hence its presence in the media.

77

Kornelius,

Planet Fatherless 06/12/2007 11:47:00

#79 & 81 Kobi.

Spot on mate.

How dare we accuse women of such a thing!

EQUALITY please.

78

Kornelius,

Planet Fatherless 06/12/2007 12:03:51

#82 Carcc

Dear Carcc, I myself was the victim of violence from my ex partner, she was quite violent.
I have the photographs and the doctors reports to prove it.

It is a well known fact that if a man reports his partner for assault the police etc do not take it very seriously.

In the case of a woman merely alleging an assault is good enough for the battalions and the cavalry to come steaming in and remove the man.

Violence by women against men is not "Could" be unreported! it is a fact that the majority of incidents are definately unreported.

Why,

I will tell you:

Men are chivalrous to their detriment and now it has been taken advantage of far too much, please stop the biased treatment?

An even bigger problem is child abuse by many of the mothers out there.

When a couple separate the mother automatically gets "Ownership" of the children without any kind of assessment as to what her placement and what her parenting skills are like.

Just like there are "Deadbeat" dads out there, an equal amount of "Deadbeat " mothers also exist.
Tell me why, if our society expects the best interests of the children to be served and that their welfare is paramount that there is no assessment of both the parents carried out immediately on separation.

This is child abuse!

79

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 06/12/2007 13:08:03

#84

Believe it or not, your experience is similar to my own.

If I may borrow from your post - all rhetorical tricks aside:

"It is a well known fact that if a man reports his partner for assault the police etc do not take it very seriously."

This happened to me, too (just make the adjustments for gender differences).

"In the case of a woman merely alleging an assault is good enough for the battalions and the cavalry to come steaming in and remove the man."

This did not happen in my case. My abuser retained the marital home. My children and I lost our home and many other belongings. What we didn't lose was our futures, which were in jeopardy had we not fled.

I would have loved to have had battalions appear on the horizon. I think any abuse victim would. The cavalry did not appear. Who did? Two ordinary on patrol officers who saw shattered windows, broken furniture, traces of blood and tears, asked the victim in front of the perpetrator if everything was ok and left. Amount of time spent? Rough guess: travel time = 20 minutes. Time at the scene = 3.

"Violence by women against men is not "Could" be unreported! it is a fact that the majority of incidents are definately unreported."

Spot on - for ALL forms of abuse.

As for the rest of your post, we differ. This is allowed, btw. We're equally entitled to opinions no matter how those opinions are formed.

My concern is that in some ways it doesn't matter if opinions are formed from terrible experiences or not, the perceptions (again, each human being is entitled to his/her own feelings, perceptions and beliefs) have us (wider context sense) at each other's throats, polarised, divided and antagonistic.

Biases seem to be a function of human existence/sentience and I'd suggest that there are those instances when bias might be justifiable or even constructive. There is also the flip side of bias, natura

80

Kobi,

06/12/2007 13:48:50

#85

Fair's fair, I give you credit for a sensible post.

I do not mean to belittle the experiences of you or any other victims of domestic violence, of either sex. The point I am trying to make is that female domestic violence on men is treated as male violence on women was treated 20 years ago i.e. pretend it does not exist, and give no money to fund support organisations.

Finally, as Kornelius at #83 points out, why is it assumed that women should automatically get custody of the children, when it is more likely that she has been assaulting the kids rather than their father?

81

Kornelius,

Planet Fatherless 06/12/2007 14:39:32

#85 Caitlin

Dear Caitlin, I would be very interested to hear how "As for the rest of your post, we differ"?

I do hope that you are not going to do what 99% of the politicians do.... evade the questions and hope that they go away?

I will ask them again:

1. Why is there no immediate assessment of "Both" of the parents on separation to acertain which parent should be given residencey ( Ownership ) etc of the children.

2. Why is a mother allowed to shut out a loving and devoted father from the children's lives on separation with the greatest of ease.

3. Why should a father have to go to court to try to continue to be a parent to the children that he loves and cares about?

4. If there has to be court action tell me why this action is not ongoing in the background and the continuity of having both parents in their lives not upheld?

5. Please tell me if you think that it is in the best interests of the child to be uprooted by the mother to an unreasonable geographical distance from the father?

6. Do you think that it is right that a judge can tell you what you can do with your children or do you think it is ok for him to act as God over them.

Caitlin, I have many many more questions that I can pose and I am sure that you have yours, please go ahead and ask.
I would like this because I want to understand why this is happening to so many fathers and their children.

p.s. This also happens to mothers that are not the resident parent ( parent with care ), it is quite rare but it is also happening to some mothers too.

82

Kornelius,

Planet Fatherless 06/12/2007 14:44:11

Kobi / Caitlin, I think that this comments page will close for comments all too soon.....if you wish to further our debate then e-mail me at:

kornelious@hotmail.co.uk

please note the spelling for my username has an additional "o" in it.

regards

Korni

83

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 06/12/2007 17:53:59

#86

Thank you, Kobi. (We'll stay well away from Shakespeare and the Scottish Play, and so not cry 'foul'.)

You make a fair and valid point yourself. It's my impression that you are very accurate in your assessment of current levels of support and services available to male victims (female on male OR male on male) of domestic abuse: no where near adequate or accessible, no where near reflecting the increasing numbers of men on the receiving end.

This isn't my area of experience/research, which is not to say it isn't a concern. I know from the mouths of male domestic abuse victims that the pretense it doesn't occur comes from all too many sources. They experience and are harmed by not only attacks upon their persons, but also attacks upon their sense of masculinity, as defined both biologically and socially.

I can't answer Kornelius's point, as I'm not a policy maker, but the apparently automatic presumption that children need to reside with their mother is, historically, both true (in the 20th & 21st centuries, post-suffrage) and false (19th and early 20th C women who were granted a divorce by act of parliament, available only to women of a certain status and means, generally had to leave behind their children, as they were the not hers by right, but his).

An aside: It's very interesting to read about how separation was handled in a lex non scripta (common practice/law) fashion for the vast majority who weren't titled or privileged.... Not infrequently men and women advertised themselves at their local market as seeking new partners! Think, too, about the Republic of Ireland and when divorce was legalised (1997, I seem to recall).

What I have found to be the case, again speaking from personal experience, is that there's an automatic presumption that children benefit from contact with both parents, no matter what. I'm wary of any automatic presumptions and think they pave the way to injustice (real or perceived), a

84

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 06/12/2007 18:08:05

# 87

Esteemed Kornelius (using another languages respectful form of salutation)!

More than happy to tell you how we differ. Pleading real time pressures, but will either reply in public forum or to you personally...

I don't intend emulate our modern representatives (spin / evade). You're not, perchance, suggesting I'm a politician?

I do, however, freely admit I wish that through mere (?) hoping these problems would disappear for everyone.

Anon and exuent, gentlemen, temporarily at least.

Thank you and Kobi both for re-engaging. I took a risk and feel it was worth it.

85

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 06/12/2007 18:56:38
86

Kobi,

06/12/2007 20:35:40

#89

"Can you explain the basis for the claim (not refuting it - yet! - want to be informed) that "it is more likely that she has been assaulting the kids rather than their father"?"

Simple - more assaults on children are carried out by women than by men. I'm not talking about sexual abuse here, which is clearly the other way round.

87

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 06/12/2007 21:13:13

#92

Is this from Children1st or Barnardo's or UN or WHO or Scottish Gov? Seeking context.

88

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 07/12/2007 09:36:57

#87. Dear Kornelius.

Apologies for length. Pithiness the purview of citrus fruit?

My responses (fwiw, as neither policy maker nor politician):

'1. Why is there no immediate assessment of "Both" of the parents on separation to acertain which parent should be given residencey ( Ownership ) etc of the children.'

I'd guess several factors may be influencing this: a) lack of staff & training; b) prevailing "wisdom"; c) inertia due to tradition.

Remember, any legal system IS conservative by virtue of being a system, slow to adapt & change.

I worry that trends play too great a part. The legal system is a closed shop & as spinily self-protective as a hedgehog. But why should Scotland have to re-invent the wheel? Why can't we learn from Canada or Australia, for e.g.?

I'm left feeling like a guinea pig, as confused as teachers, students & parents are by the myriad changes in our education system. I don't expect the authorities to get it right every time, nor do I expect to walk a minefield of trendy political correctness.

The two most famous & opposed advocacy groups in the UK are Women's Aid & Fathers 4 Justice. Women's Aid all but saved my life, gave me the ability to promote my children's futures. I believe (this will surprise you - not) that F4J did themselves & their children few favours in its self-serving myopia.

A very different organisation (yesterday's link) is Families Need Fathers, long-established charity with a very good reputation for responding to its members, their needs & concerns. (I frequently tell men about them.)

Maybe we should be listening to the RSPCC, Children1st & Barnardos?

Are you suggesting an assessment needs to be done in all cases or just those where there are allegations or suspicions (GP / Health Visitor, say) of abuse or violence?

If the latter, should not a person's criminal &/or signific

89

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 07/12/2007 11:50:05

PLEASE SCOTSMAN: Do those of us (mayhap just me) with chronic typo-itis a favour and allow us to edit our posts? We are, after all, contributing to your readership, n'est ce pas?

Ta.

90

Kornelius,

Planet Fatherless 07/12/2007 14:21:29

#90 & 94 Caitilin

Dear Caitlin, thank you for the replies.

No I did'nt think you were a politician, I wish you were!

I see you are engaging with Kobi also, a point you were making about .

You mentioned other countries:

This is now Denmark's stance............a glimmer of hope perchance!

http://crispe.org/blog/?p=128

Korni


 

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