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Racism shame of monkey chants

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Published Date: 10 June 2007
DUNOON is a rarity among rural Scottish communities. The presence of a US naval base at Holy Loch during the Cold War accounts for most of the black people living in the town.
So Paul Omoniyi, a born and bred Scot of Nigerian parentage, might have expected a warmer welcome when he travelled to the Cowal peninsula on October 2, 2005, with his under-13s Bishopbriggs boys' team West Park United.

The 11-year-old was excite
d about making an impression for a team he had joined only two months earlier, and hoped it would help him realise his dream of becoming a professional footballer like his brother.

In the stand at Cowal Stadium that day, there was a crowd to watch the Scottish Youth Club Association (SYCA) league match, made up of players from the under-14s Dunoon team who had played earlier.

A few minutes after kick off, Paul got his first touch of the ball - and was promptly greeted by monkey chants from the stand. "I heard the first monkey chant and I did feel hurt and wanted to do something," said Paul. "I was going to speak to the referee at half-time but when it happened again, he put the boys doing it out. He came up and said how sorry he was about it."

The referee that afternoon was Ian Cunning, a local man who shared the training facilities with various Dunoon teams. "I thought my ears must have been deceiving me, so I played on," he said. A minute later, Paul sent the ball for a corner and even louder monkey chants pierced the air. "I was absolutely raging and held up play, ran from the field to order the boys in the stand out of the park, and told them in no uncertain terms their behaviour was appalling."

West Park coach Martin Rafferty said: "I was bemused when I heard the first chanting. The referee came over to me and said: 'Am I hearing things?' 'Depends on what you are listening to?' I replied. 'If it is noises coming from the stand then you are hearing monkey chants.' A brief time later, no one could be in any doubts that there were monkey chants coming from that part of the ground and that was why the referee went through the boys who were making them and sent them out."

Despite the trouble he knew it might cause in his own community, Cunning did not pull any punches in his report to the SYCA. "I was positive in hearing the 'monkey' chant," he wrote. "I left the field of play and ordered the boys out of the stand... I also voiced my disgust." Cunning concluded his report by stating he mentioned the incident to a committee member of Dunoon Youth Football League the next day and was assured the member would "deal with it accordingly".

But 20 months later, there is little evidence that anyone in authority has done anything about the abuse Paul suffered that day. Despite a supposedly zero-tolerance approach to racism in all forms across society, youth football organisations appear to have tried to bury the issue in a maze of bureaucracy. Despite a ceaseless campaign by Rafferty involving countless letters, e-mails and phone calls to the SYCA and its governing body the Scottish Youth Football Association (SYFA), the case remains in a bizarre limbo.

Paul said: "I am angry nothing has been done. I want something to be done about this and I am really glad my coach won't let it go."

Rafferty is not even seeking punitive measures against those responsible. He said: "I simply want what happened acknowledged and for all clubs to be informed in writing that such abuse would not be tolerated.

"I don't see what was so difficult about that. Instead, I have been sent all round the houses and unable to do right by Paul and do right by every ethnic minority player. None of them should have to put up with what he has without there being some sort of comeback."

Comeback began - and ended - at a SYCA disciplinary meeting on December 15, 2005, attended by Rafferty, Paul and the then under-13s Dunoon coach. The three-man committee decided the case was "too big for us, we'll have to send it to Hampden", a reference to the national stadium offices of the SYFA. The SYFA stated that all issues pertaining to league games held under the auspices of the SYCA, including crowd conduct, are outside its jurisdiction. The case has been stuck in no-man's land since.

For Paul, this is particularly disappointing given the Dunoon incident was not his last taste of racism in football. This year, West Park laid another allegation of racist abuse against a rival player after Paul claimed he was called a "black bastard" by a Maryhill Harp player on February 18.

The SYCA delivered a "not proven" verdict. Paul said: "The second incident maybe affected me more than the first because they wouldn't believe my team-mate, but both have made me stronger. That is how I have been brought up. My mum has taught me not feel put down by racism and that people who say things have problems in their own lives. I am devoted to football and won't let these things stop me making it my career."

Paul is determined to follow in the footsteps of his brother, Gabriel, 21. Currently playing in Serie C in Italy, the former Partick Thistle player is the oldest of parents Joe and Anne's four children. The couple came to London from Nigeria in the early 1980s. After Joe completed studies in engineering and a stint lecturing in Brunel University, they moved to Glasgow's southside when he was recruited by Babcock. A difficult period, they resettled in Bearsden 11 years ago to escape racism that had become a daily part of their lives.

"Our car was vandalised, everything we had was vandalised," said Joe. "We had to call in the police and have cameras put in our house before eventually moving to somewhere we felt was safe for our children."

It is little wonder then that the engineer sees Rafferty as a potential agent for much-needed change in refusing to let the abuse suffered by his son 20 months ago go unrecognised. "Martin is trying to make football youth development organisations tackle racism at the most junior level. He is raising awareness of the authorities' appalling failure to do anything about it. They are in denial and Martin is forcing them to confront that denial.

"We need to deal with these issues in Scotland and, in my son's case, have people take the responsibility to act in obvious cases of racist abuse. Nobody is doing that. Who is responsible here?

"Paul isn't the only black or non-white player who has suffered this type of treatment. There are lots of Asians in this country who love football. Yet no one has stopped to ask why few of them play football. Might it be because when things happen as they have to Paul, it doesn't seem anyone will be dealt with and face penalties because these aren't set out?"

The SYCA concedes "there is no dubiety" over the fact that there were monkey chants directed towards Paul. It also admits that it did not know how to handle it and looked to the SYFA for "guidance".

SYFA national secretary David Little says the paperwork for the case was lodged by his association but did not merit a response because only once the SYCA had carried out an investigation and reached a decision could the SYFA become involved. "The protocols are all in the handbook," Little says. "We only come in if there is an appeal or, as could still happen, if a club makes a formal complaint against the activities of the league."

Off the ball


October 2, 2005: Omoniyi racially abused.

October 15: After consultation, referee Ian Cunning files a report to the referees' association and the SYCA.

December 5: Officials from Westpark and Dunoon are cited by the SYCA to appear.

December 13: SYCA decides case "too big for us".

May to July 2006: Hearing nothing further, West Park coach Martin Rafferty contacts both the SYCA and SYFA. He claims he was told SYFA remembered the matter but there was "no case to answer".

July: SYFA apparently changes tack, saying as the game came under the auspices of the SYCA, it was its responsibility.

February 18, 2007: Rafferty writes to the SYCA and SYFA after a West Park team-mate claims he hears Paul Omoniyi being called "a black bastard" by a Maryhill Harp opponent.

March 1: The SYFA tells Rafferty "the allegation from Dunoon was referred to the SYFA by the SYCA, with the SYCA recommending 'no action'".

April 16: At a disciplinary meeting over the Maryhill Harp incident, it is decided no action can be taken since it is one player's word against another.

April 29: Rafferty e-mails SYCA again over the Dunoon incident.

April 30: SYCA claims the case has already been dealt with.

It states: "I believe we re-cited both teams to the committee and all the evidence was heard. I remember the committee's decision was reached and both parties were informed of the decision that night and that they had the right of appeal, which neither team took up."

May 1: Rafferty says he was never informed of any further hearing over Dunoon and the referee was never contacted.

June 8: SYCA tells Scotland on Sunday that it had in fact referred the issue to the SYFA rather than deal fully with it.



The full article contains 1626 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Hecate in the ether,

09/06/2007 23:33:57

Scum...that's all they are good for.

2

Angus Lindsay,

Xiang Gang 10/06/2007 00:24:58

Racism is a useless catch-all description for many kinds of idiotic anti-social behaviour. The fools that perpetrated this probably learnt it at their parents' knee. Sickening ignorance from the next generation of blind intolerance.

3

Jock MacSprog,

10/06/2007 00:35:10

digusting, buy unsurprising considering the mindless types involved in the game of football in Scotland.

4

Gnasher,

10/06/2007 00:48:54

I am disappointed that the referee or someone else in authority did not call the police and have the perpetrators arrested for aggravated breach of the peace.

Football in Scotland is presently a cesspit of racism and sectarianism.

Do the SYFA and SYCA enjoy charitable status and receive public funding? If so, these should be immediately withdrawn, and only be restored if and when they transform themselves into anti racist organisations, a world away from the institutionally racist organisations they plainly are at present.

5

Suck-McCrunchie,

Doomster Hill 10/06/2007 02:37:05

This is entirely and completely pathetic, but sadly what is to be expected from football - where too many thrive in the symbiosis of their common inadequacies.

However, I do feel there are times when monkey chants are justified....

http://zachk.sixbit.org/images/bush/monkey.jpg

http://frymax.typepad.com/longcut/images/bush_monkey.jpg

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/I/O/bush_monkey.jpg

http://goossun.com/b/uploaded_images/bush_monkey-720528.jpg

The search revealed i was far from alone in my beliefs!

6

Chaplin,

10/06/2007 06:27:00

Agree with #2,
This sort of behaviour is often learnt at home.
Any discrimination on racial or religious grounds to any racial/ethnic group is a slur on the character of all of us in Scotland. Its on the increase and being reported outwith our borders, its a side of our character that doesn't fill me with pride.

7

The Man Who Knows,

Perth 10/06/2007 06:48:59

This, I am afraid, is modern Scotland. Please do not give me that nonsense about us Scots being the most open minded people in the world. Please do not give me that crap about this being an isolated incident. I look forward to Alex Salmond and his government taking early and effective action to eradicate this scourge from our country.

8

The Man Who Knows,

Perth 10/06/2007 06:50:46

3/4/5

Sadly, racism is not confined to football. It runs through the whole of Scotland.

9

CJO,

The Maghreb 10/06/2007 07:04:19

Racism and religious bigotry are 2 symptoms are what is a pretty sick society in Scotland. It will be interesting to see how the now ruling party in the SE cope with it given that they and their supporters are nationalists i.e. setting their own nationality ahead of all others.

10

Kenny A,

10/06/2007 07:25:04

Bloody disgusting. Been on the recieving end in Africa a few tines and it is not fun. Sadly it exists in many parts of Scotland although it is not as bad generaly the furthur North you go.

#9

Interesting point is that a fair few nationalists are not originaly from Scotland, know a few Asian ones and forgive me for this a couple from England also.

Strangly we do not discrimanate against people, tend to welcom most, there are exceptions of course when they try to change our admittidly staid ways but that is life.

11

Ralph Kramden,

10/06/2007 07:29:22

As a society we have only ourselves (and the media) to blame. When bananas were chucked at a young Mark Walters by a bunch of racist celtic supporters (and yes it was a minority) the incident was all but ignored in the media. A stand should have been taken but sadly some journalists put it wodn to 'the craic'. Well it wasnt funny then and it isnt funny now.

In such an incident, especially with children involved, the offifical should have immediately abandoned the game - thereby showing such behaviour will not be tolerated.

12

Dickie Bird,

inaweeglasgaebothy 10/06/2007 07:43:04

Agree with all the above!

Bravo #2 & 6 because this IS what is happening.

Home, home on the range, where the racists and politicans play.
Where ni**er is heard, a discouraging word, and the skys are indeed cloudy all day.

Scotland is worse for it's racism and worsens the case for independence. Sad indeed.
Such high hopes for a good future are fading FAST and seems nothing the SNP, Labour, Tory's and Lib Dems can do about it. When something is done, we will be in a real big brother state.

Into the abyss we go!

13

Helen,

10/06/2007 07:55:29

The young scum involved in making the monkey noises should have been arrested and locked up in the cells for a night. Their parents should have been contacted and asked to appear in court alongside their obnoxious offspring to answer charges of racially aggravated breach of the peace. The parents should have received large fines and the racist yobs lengthy community service and a ban from attending any football matches at any level for the next 10 years.
Sounds harsh? Yes, it's meant to!! If we don't tackle racism then it will continue. If that bunch of scum ridden neds had thought a court appearance and a heavy punishment was on the cards, they may have thought twice before engaging in this kind of despicable behaviour. Let's name and shame scum like this!!

14

The Man Who Knows,

Perth 10/06/2007 08:22:56

13

Helen, spot on but the problem is that their parents would probably have laughed at their disgraceful behaviour.

15

arris,

edinburgh 10/06/2007 08:24:45

Agreed, disgusting. But Helen's solution will only breed extremism. Sure, lock them up for the night and charge them. Punishments like you suggest won't stop racism. Only education will.

16

Gnasher,

10/06/2007 08:31:06

Argyll & Bute Council is responsible for sports decvelopment and general wellbeing and safety in the community. It is required by law to to eliminate unlawful racial discrimination, to promote equality of opportunity and to promote good relations between persons of different racial groups. It must produce a race equality action plan and it has done so. The trouble is that it's all about consultation, training, monitoring and liaison. There's nothing about confronting racism in sport or supporting people who want to do so.
http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/yourcouncil/howitworks/3170...

17

The Man Who Knows,

Perth 10/06/2007 08:52:48

16

Gnasher, you are correct. Words without action.

18

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

10/06/2007 09:01:19

Sad to see this type of behaviour once again in the news.As a poster inferred racism and sectarianism are attitudes are taught in the home which can be reinforced by peers.What is also true is that it is education that is required.It may be too late to stop others but if you can reach young people then hopefully it is something that can be reduced in time.

11,

There is more of a role for the media to play in confornting these attitudes.Only in January did a radio reporter refer to the abuse of Noel Hunt as 'getting the treatment'.Whilst certain racist abuse,and let us not forget that racist abuse does not start and stop with colour,is treated with a blatant disregard then things may take a long time to improve.

19

Hamish Riley,

ALBA 10/06/2007 09:36:15

Conduct like this shames every Scot.........and the football authorities need to convene a meeting to thrash through IN DETAIL quite how such incidents should be stamped upon from a great height in future..otherwise it'll be more of the same.
"Zero Tolerance" please !!

20

donald,

weegieland 10/06/2007 09:39:51

What's the betting they also happend to support the Old Firm too?

21

Fat Freddy's Cat,

10/06/2007 09:58:53

Aye, One Scotland Many Cultures...

what an impact that campaign had.


In my own view, the big mistake these jumper wearing tree huggers who create these kind of campaigns is that they simply exclude Scottish Culture!

We should be proud of our own culture and heritage first and foremost... if any campaign forgets that, then it is doomed to failure and actually IMO has the opposite effect.

22

Pilrig,

Livingston 10/06/2007 10:01:39

Punishments wont stop racism ? Well the threat of expulson from UEFA tournaments made Rangers (at long last) get their act together in dealing with the 'fenian blood' mob.
So perhaps a threat of punishment may nudge the authorities into action ?

23

Pilrig,

Livingston 10/06/2007 10:03:21

21 - and what has this got to do with a black laddie getting pelters from neds ?

24

pwd,

Borders 10/06/2007 10:16:43

It's encouraging to note that all posts condemn racism but the incident in the article is neither the only nor necessarily the worst aspect of the zenophobia rife in Scotland. Bad as it was, it is dwarfed by the scurrilous anti Englishness voiced incessantly by the worst type of Scot, of whom there are far too many and not all of whom infest football terraces (try certain elements in a particular political party).

It is we Scots who are demeaned by it, of course, not the targets. Any decent Scot will daily and diligently oppose this disease of the gutter and oppose all forms of prejudice against our brotherrs and sisters south of the border whatever their colour.

25

,

10/06/2007 10:20:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 698510, Article id was mapped to record!
26

Fat Freddy's Cat,

10/06/2007 10:24:13

@21 -

The point being that to exclude your own culture when promoting others encourages tits like the idiots in this story.

@24 -

I really, really have to <sigh> at another ridiculous assertion that the SNP and its followers are racist for chasing independance.
Your position and thoughts are completely irrational given then that it must be racist to be British, German, Norwegian, Polish, Brazilian, Iraqi, Australian, American etc etc add every other country of the world...

Are all the other countries racist because they are independant???

Its a non-starter mate. Try some other anti-SNP argument because that tired old dross simply does not hang together.

27

pwd,

Borders 10/06/2007 10:37:50

*26 Fat .....

Read again and try to focus your mind on the words 'certain elements'. When you have grasped the meaning you will then see that the remainder of you comment is redundant. After that try to focus on the real issue - the zenophobia of too many of our countrymen and women, condemn it as I do, whatever its source, and try to do something about it.

28

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 10/06/2007 10:56:11

Round up the monkey chant crowd and then name them and shame them..

Racism, or cultural intolerance is a terrible thing. Take a white boy and let him try walk the streets of Harlem and it wont be monkey chants. It will be a white boy beating, probably murder. Try put a white boy up for nomination at the black music awards and there will be outrage, riots and violence. Try host a white music awards which excludes blacks and the same thing will happen.

Vote for a white man over a black man in a predominantly white society and there will be trouble. Vote for a black man over a white man in a predominantly black society and its considered democracy.

Racism comes in many guises, all of them just as bas as the other. How do we stop it in a world of such multi cultural indifference?

29

Scary Bear,

London 10/06/2007 11:00:07

#27...it's xenophobia

30

Scary Bear,

London 10/06/2007 11:10:49

As for stamping out racism. It's bound to be a gradual thing. People don't change overnight and some never will. Apart from advertising campaigns and education on the subject from an early age, there's not much else that can be done. There will probably always be elements of society who are anti-social.

31

Frank P,

10/06/2007 11:15:04

Suck McCrunchie

Perhaps you would insert a picture of yourself, which might just provide a chance for reciprocation. I think McBush's reply could well be, "Kiss ma ass, Suck McCrunchie! Simian featured or otherwise, I'm the President of the most powerful nation on Earth - whadda you do for a living?"

32

Crewedaddy,

Cheshire 10/06/2007 11:17:45

Got to say that I was thinking along the same lines as pwd before I read his comment. Certain elements of nationalism, wherever it's being practised, smack too closely of racism and some of the rhetoric from the self-determinists on these pages has been very near the knuckle over the years. If you were to imagine English people as predominantly black then you might understand this idea more. Sensitivity to insult has no colour bar.

As for the neds, one solution stands out far above the others and that is make parents responsible for their children's criminal actions while they are in full-time education. When I was a kid it wasn't getting caught that scared me most, it was my Mum and Dad finding out. Even today, at 46 years old, I rarely swear in front of them and until I gave up 4 years ago, they never saw me smoke for 25 years either - I hated the fact that I'd let them down and the attitude stuck. I'm no goody-two shoes but I'm always aware of where the brake pedal is. Forget the argument that the parents will just take it out on the kids anyway, not all parents are like that (there always were some) , and when there's an opportunity to get judged by their peers you'll be amazed how attitudes can change. I see it on this little estate quite a lot.

33

Ralph Kramden,

10/06/2007 11:18:07

#20 - "they support the Old Firm" - I find people who support the OF are about as scarce as "rocking horse sh*t".

Perhaps you mean the support one half of the OF???

Does it matter who they support - they are just scum.

34

Pilrig,

Livingston 10/06/2007 11:28:10

26 - I doubt if the f@nnies in the stand gave a toss about Scottish culture or being denied access it. In fact they were probably part of the 'aint no black in the Union Jack' choral society

35

,

10/06/2007 11:29:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
36

The Man Who Knows,

Perth 10/06/2007 11:45:30

34

Pilrig, I agree 100% but I would appreciate your views on post 11. Thanks.

37

Lady Belle,

USA 10/06/2007 12:05:25

#5-What gives YOU the right to make fun of our president? You're not from this country...you do not know what we do...we support our president and his decisions. We do NOT appreciate your "monkey comments" about him. Don't knock what you do not understand. It makes you look an idiot, like the rest.

38

,

10/06/2007 12:18:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
39

howyoudoingboy,

10/06/2007 12:20:25

#26#21fat freddys cat

fat is obviously a racist he says to put Scottish culture first meaning other culture's national identities are secondary to Scottish.

which is given most Scottish nationalist party discourse not British,Irish,welsh,French although they are all prevalent in the genetic makeup of the Scot's people.

further 75%of Scots have the R1b marker originating from the Iberian peninsula R1b is a descendant of Haplogroup R1 . R1b is characterised by the presence of the M343 marker originated in Central Asia/South Central Siberia and appears to have entered prehistoric Europe mainly from the area of Ukraine/Belarus or Central Asia (Kazakhstan)

so like most of the world a bit of a mish mash
evolving and changing over time whereas fat fred and the snp minions are trying to fix Scottish culture around Brigadoon time

which will give you a stereotypical Scots whose physical characteristics are (????????????????????) ( ill let you fill that blank yourselves) but are unlikely to be inclusive of ethnic differences


the process whereby they would be placed first he like most of SNP does not explain history gives us many lessons though

40

FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE,

10/06/2007 12:30:29

28,

You do not half talk some rubbish and your thinly veiled attempt at coming across as tolerant is transparent.Can you provide evidence of the racist murder rate in Harlem and do you include Hispanic people also in your rant.

41

,

10/06/2007 12:32:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 698765, Article id was mapped to record!
42

Caora Dubh,

Dhachaigh 10/06/2007 13:03:41

There should be no matches for the entire season at any venue where there have been racist taunts. After England beat Germany at football I remember being on the tube, when this group of English "fans" wearing Cross-of-St George T-shirts boarded. They started trashing the carriage and taunted the non-whites with: "You aren't English, you don't belong here". I got the feeling that they would prefer England to lose rather than have black players on the team. Once I took the Bluebird bus from Banff to Obar Dheathain. As it stopped at villages it gradually filled: mostly with old people who knew each other well and chatted in a relaxed fashion. Then about halfway a young black boy boarded. The bus fell silent, as if in shock, and all these silvers were staring at this young guy. People in rural areas are still unaccustomed to other races.

43

,

10/06/2007 13:09:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

Dougie - Edinburgh,

10/06/2007 13:12:17

37. howyoudoingboy
What utter rubbish! We share half our genes with bananas, so what?

You're suggesting that Scots are ethnically the same as other Northern Europeans. However, take a random sample of twenty (ethnic) Scots and compare to a random sample of twenty Irish or twenty English, it's easy to tell them apart.

As for putting Scottish culture first, nobody else is going to do anything for Scottish culture if Scotland doesn't. Unless you want Scotland to become a multi-cultural civil war in incubation like parts of England you'd better be very clear to everyone who comes to live in Scotland that Scottish culture has to come first.

Multi-culturalism has been tried all over the Western world. When even the architects of multi-culturalism in England (people like Jack Straw and Tony Blair) admit it's been a failure, Scotland had better start listening because the rate of immigration in Scotland has never been so high in modern times as it is now.

45

howyoudoingboy,

10/06/2007 13:12:48

i woke up in my bed and saw this big thickset black man going through my stuff so i shouted at him and i said DAD WHAT ARE YOU DOING.

didn't make any difference to him though

46

Dougie - Edinburgh,

10/06/2007 13:21:36

38. FOOTBALLAGAINSTRACISMEUROPE

Crime by ethnicity in the USA by US government statistics:
http://amren.com/colorofcrime/color.pdf

Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder.

Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.

Harlem is infamous as being dangerous for whites. Here's a recent example of a white murder in Harlem:

"4 Harlem Teenagers Charged in Student’s Death During Robbery"

Andrew Jacobs, New York Times, April 10, 2006

.... heard one of the attackers, who were black, yell, “Get the white guy,” ....

47

Glenn,

Free Press and Free Speech for Black and White 10/06/2007 13:27:44

Why can blacks, Indians and whatever so called "ethnic minority group" insult and taunt us white honky's and whitebread and get away with that, yet when ole honky insults or taunts a black or other "ethnic minority" it is racism? It seems these so called "ethnic minorities" need to be put back in their place...IE: given EQUALITY to us whiteys rather than superiority and preference over us just because of the colour of their skin. They also need to be taught about life, human nature and humour! It is fine for blacks to call each other "nigga", but heaven help us if a whitey were to do the same...whitey would be dubbed racist and hauled over the coals instantly and then done for inciting racial hatred.

When I was a kid my Grandparents, who grew up in India had a large home full of Indian servants as was the custom for the day for Brits working in India...the servants were well cared for and treated well. There was mutual respect, but that didn't stop anyone having a laugh at the others cultural differences...nobody ran around crying racist...sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never harm me. Even kids know that one! So why don't all the PC brigade just grow up and have a laugh at each other. Honestly...who ever heard of a few "monkey chants" hurting anyone...just laugh WITH everyone...it is a lot easier, you will have a more enjoyable life and you will have a much better emotional state of mind and be stronger for it. I dare say...quite a few people continue to poke fun at the English, Scots, Welsh and Irish...what makes someone with black skin so different that they cannot be poked fun at in any way.

48

Kenneth,

10/06/2007 13:42:32

#41
As someone with Scottish lineage, I would like to believe that part of Scottish culture is the strength of identity that doesn't need putting down other races or peoples of any sort. Being Scottish or French or any other type should not be a substitute for one's own strength of identity. So strap on a pair and get on the bus. Racism is an example of weakness of the core. Don't associate this subprimate behavior with any sort of cultural pride.

Tossing the perps was the right move. Going after them in some formal way is questionable. These retards are best delt with by constant exclusion from social events. In a classroom of adolescents when students act out they are taken out of the class. This clear expression of what society expects of us is the most important lesson. If they persist they will get nailed further down the line.

49

WJR,

Leith 10/06/2007 14:05:06

#13 - interesting comments Helen! Would your club impose a 10 year ban should one of your members be found to be guilty of racist abuse?

"Not proven" and "no case to answer"? Stock phrases for the football authorities. I wonder if they actually spoke to any witnesses.

Last year Andrew Smith pressed David Taylor on the matter of how the SFA dealt with cases of racist abuse. Taylor admitted in both the SoS and on Radio Scotland that their procedures were inadequate and that they must change the way the SFA deal with such matters. However, he did caveat that by saying that the committee must be persuaded to change the way they deal with such matters. New proposals were supposed to be published in December but there appears to be little evidence of this having happened so presumably he was unable to persuade the committee to change its way of working. Maybe he was too busy sorting out his new job.

That was in response to a case of on field abuse rather than off field and there is an argument that the SFA and its member organisations don't have authority to deal with spectators and that it would unfair to punish clubs for actions of supporters.

That however is an argument worthy of Pontius Pilate and if the SFA want to be seen to be adopting a proactive stance in playing their part in society to tackle racism they must at least properly investigate such incidents so the pressure on the SFA must be maintained to change their procedures.

Anyone who feels strongly about this should write to Gordon Smith, remind him of Taylor's commitment to seek change to the procedures and demand to know this reform is progressing.

It would of course be open to Paul to refer the matter to the Procurator Fiscal's office and ask for the matter to be investigated by the police but it would be understandable if he were reluctant to do so - the very least a player should be entitled to expect is the support of the governing authori

50

dixon,

10/06/2007 14:09:43

#28 & 43: My sister and brother-in-law (both white) had a meal in Harlem the last time they were in New York.They were made welcome and treated very well.So much for your scaremongering.
Media 1, I've never read a post of yours that didn't involve anti-black sentiment.You have obviously never heard of the MOBO awards (music of black origin).I looked the winners up on their website and found that plenty white artists have been nominated and won awards, including Justin Timberlake and Christine Aguilera.I don't recall any rioting at the time.

51

Angus Lindsay,

Xiang Gang 10/06/2007 14:16:33

#28. Media1
"Take a white boy and let him try walk the streets of Harlem and it wont be monkey chants. It will be a white boy beating, probably murder."

A bit extravagant, even for you ... no?

#43. Dougie
"Harlem is infamous as being dangerous for whites. Here's a recent example of a white murder in Harlem ..."

I ask both #28 and #43: Have either of you any personal experience of Harlem? It's so easy to extrapolate from hearsay or a bunch of statistics, and beg the reading public to draw slightly skewed conclusions.

I lived and worked in Brooklyn some years back in a mostly all-black environment. Entirely without harm. On visits to Harlem's Apollo and Sylvia's famous soulfood restaurant (mostly at night) with my then girlfriend, a tall, stunning black girl, I was neither jeered at nor set upon for being white.

Luck of the draw? Maybe. I'm not questioning the government statistics #43 quotes, but only offer a perspective out of personal experience. I was aware of the fact that I was the only white face in town, and although always alert, I never felt intimidated. Possibly the beauty on my arm deflected attention!

52

WJR,

Leith 10/06/2007 14:17:28

"This is not the way these cases should be handled," Taylor conceded. "It is wrong, in my view. We are going to review it and I am going to review it personally. I have become more involved in this case than maybe I would have expected but we require improved policies and processes that set out very clearly how complaints can be made and dealt with.

"Not just administratively, but by the committee. The committee has to be persuaded and agree in future they will act differently. That would mean in this type of case, even if there are postponements, even if there are delays, we need to get the parties to be able to be cross-examined. At the meeting preferably, but alternatively through some form of investigation carried out by a security adviser or someone else.

"We have to take these next steps to create a more transparent procedure. I will personally be attending the next disciplinary meeting on December 13 to put forward these proposals. Over the next six weeks I will also be writing to all clubs, both to make them aware that racist and sectarian language is not acceptable on a football field and also to inform them of our procedural review which will be a two-stage process.

"Quite a lot will come out of this case and I welcome racism being profiled and being up the agenda. I cannot see why we cannot get changes to the disciplinary procedures to deal with racism and sectarianism in place directly. Then we must also look at new offences in Scottish football that might carry a tariff or a penalty. That might need to be introduced at the end of the season because you cannot change the penalty points system midway through."

David Taylor's comments from November last year. Fine words!

53

Name,

10/06/2007 14:30:31

Why should anybody be surprised that racism is live and well in bonnie Scotland?

54

Ricco,

10/06/2007 14:37:49

Having worked and lived in predominantly black countries and places (including parts of London), for many years, I have often been embarrassed by the the generosity of spirit extended to me (I am white). The fear of anti-white violence has virtually always had an economic basis, not a racist one.

I fear the shame will only end when Scotland has the courage to face the past, confront the present and take responsibility for the future.

Media 1, I'm sorry but you are a fool. To attempt mitigation in this case invites ridicule. Monkey chants to a wee laddie. It doesn't get much more putrid, short of physical molestation.

55

Hamish Riley,

ALBA 10/06/2007 14:42:57

#36 Lady Belle
Ma'am
It is with some regret that we are obliged to point out to you that your president features in so many of our blogs here as he is seen(and I believe rightly) as a total imbecile whose actions as president have not only made HIM seem an imbecile, but throws into great question the calibre of the wider US public who elected this man. Now clearly that was your democratic decision...well at least the second time it was....but you will have to excuse the rest of us for not revering a man who is simultaneously incapable of completing a gramatically correct sentence and able to reduce to rubble a regime that had not attacked the US (or the UK) and lead to the deaths of some 650,000 people and untold hardship and misery to millions of others in a failed and unnecessary war ...and some 4 yeras after declaring the ridiculous ,"Mission Accomplished"
We hope to see him and Tony Bliar at the bar of the dock in The Hague one day soon !

56

Skatedad,

At home 10/06/2007 15:31:05

#51. Spot on. Stupid and dangerous.

57

andersm0,

Canada 10/06/2007 15:43:01

there is a very old video of an Amercian teacher's experiment back in the 60's. It's called 'The Eye of the Storm'. I first saw it as an adult almost 20 years ago - it shook me up. For the first time I had a true emotional understanding of how racism (or any other 'ism') destroys the sense of self-worth of its victims, particularly children. I have never forgotten it and when I witness or hear of racist taunting of children I get the same feeling of almost physical illness I felt when that video was done. I was shamed to my soul because I had also flippantly made racist comments for the fun and amusement of my companions. I had never once thought of what it must be like to be on the receiving end of my destructive cruelty. No more.

58

George F,

Michigan 10/06/2007 15:47:30

#36 Lady Belle, the fact alone that #5 lives in a free and democratic country gives him the right to say anything he wants about President Bush. You said in your comment "Don't knock what you do not understand". You may be surprised to find that Europeans are pretty well up on US politics unlike a lot of Americans. Basically Ma'am the guy can say what he wants, it's called freedom of speech/expression.

59

Becca D-H,

Reno Nevada, USA 10/06/2007 15:49:24

#51, Here here!

The world, and history will judge the 'legacy' of President George Walker Bush, not the blind, party supporters, or Whitehouse yes-men. Just like Nixon he ran on the platform of Christian moral supremacy, and then made a mockery of the moral and just beliefs of Christianity, choosing only to lead by fear and jingoistic tyranny.

#36, speak for yourself. In America we're supposed to believe in the right to dissent, in this country and abroad. In the current situation that's YOU, the minority, as more than 50% of THIS nation disapproves of his actions and policies at any given point.

To the point- Racism, classism, etc, are problems that don't go away over night, and are tragically common in the world's "great" nations. Education is key, but you cannot control the thoughts of others, not should you be able to.

60

George F,

Michigan 10/06/2007 15:49:35

PS, nope I'm not a Democrat :-)

61

Cathie,

New York, NY 10/06/2007 15:54:36

#51 Hamish re #36 Lady Belle

Thank you Hamish! I was debating with myself about asking the lady (1) to refrain from claiming that she or her pseudo-cowboy vote-rigged prez represents the people of the US, and (2) to resist her school marmish orders to the people on this list. She has a right to her opinions, as we all do, however her fascism is appalling. She is amongst less than 1/3 of the US who support the puppet in the white house. The rest of us are trying to figure out who it really is who is currently running our country into the ground.

The photos of Baby Bush shows that ALL humans are closely related to monkeys. The racists who use monkey chants simply are reverting to their own ancestoral behavior!

62

Renfrew Rant,

an undisclosed location 10/06/2007 15:58:19

#51 & #55- That may all be true, however find a nice political article to make your comments on. It has nothing to do with the article at hand.

63

RedSwanie,

sad at heart 10/06/2007 15:59:28

This is the best part of this story, what Paul says: "My mum has taught me not feel put down by racism and that people who say things have problems in their own lives. I am devoted to football and won't let these things stop me making it my career."

Good on you, Paul. I hope every one of your dreams come true. And with your attitude and internal strength, they will. As for all of the candy-@sses who have created this problem, well ... you'll have to read my mind because it's not fit to write here.

64

Anton,

At home 10/06/2007 16:05:07

#36 Lady Belle, I suggest you apply for a White House Internship and perfom your patriotic duty...

65

WJR,

Leith 10/06/2007 16:12:23

#58 Well said RR - this is about a young lad and his coach who are game enough to not let this lie. It's not helpful to their case wandering off topic.

Our US based commentators would be better to follow the example of US lawyer John Hanrahan who wrote a very strongly worded letter to the Scotsman expressing his outrage at another incident of football related racist abuse which subsequently led to high profile media coverage, including David Taylor's public comments.

Better to spend a few minutes writing to the SFA urging them to support Paul's case than spouting off here about George Bush or Harlem.

66

Becca D-H,

Reno Nevada, USA 10/06/2007 16:26:02

58 & 61, too right, apologies =)

It seems to me that the Rascism that's so prominent in the younger leagues is merely a mirror of the deplorable hate-mongering seen at the professional level. Even the shameful chanting at professional matches is just a part of the greater problem of the growing prominence of rascist sentiment in everyday life. This, of course, is not just a Scottish problem because it seems that this sort of behavior has become more common and overt on a global scale since the high profile terrorist attacks on both sides of the pond.
"We" were attacked by a group of Muslim men, and thus a surge in anti-Muslim behavior swept the Western Nations, but it never stops with one group of people, as nobody stands against the fear and hate, more groups become targetted. Racism is pandemic.

67

WJR,

Leith 10/06/2007 16:41:59

#62 Becca, you could write to Gordon Smith, Chief Executive, The Scottish Football Association, Hampden Park, Glasgow G42 9AY, Scotland and urge him in the strongest terms to review Paul's case and see what assistance the SFA can provide in supporting Paul and his coach to resolve this matter. I'm sure Paul would appreciate that.

The "not proven" and "no case to answer" comments just don't wash. I will also be writing to Gordon Smith.

68

Andromeda,

out there 10/06/2007 17:04:21

And Scotland thinks it is ready to be an independent nation? Pshaw! I can see it hasn't changed since I was a child...only the target of prejudice has widened.

69

California Scot,

10/06/2007 17:42:43

Dougie, Former President Bill Clinton chose Harlem for the location of his office after he was no longer president. While he employs many blacks, most of his office workers are white and have had no problem in Harlem. What I think has happened is that you only see what you want to see. Blacks in America and really around the world have overwhelming rates of poverty and unemployment. If no one will hire you, you can't make money. If no one will hire you because of your colour, then it becomes everybodys problem.
In Scotland, people openly march and hate because of religion. I have not seen this in America. There are no Orange marches, and kids at public schools are pals whether they are Jewish, Catholic or Protestant. Only the intolerant and bigoted cause the trouble.
The media is in business to make money. They need to pay salaries and the light bill. You only hear about the bad, just as America only hears about the bad in Scotland. Scotland is a wonderful and magnificent place I miss dearly, but because of people like Dougie stays behind the cutting edge of modern society.
There are 33 million people here in California. As I type this I can hear hummingbirds quarreling over a flower and a mourning dove cooing. No gunfire, no loud music, nothing of what I betting you think Southern California is based on your perceptions of the media coverage. I doubt you know that all the local telly stations each week nominate a special teen who does something outstanding for their community regards of race, colour or creed. You didn't think every kid in America had a gun and shot up schools did you?
I feel very sorry for people who only have their hate and arrogance to sustain them.
They really need to try and build their identity on something more positive.

70

Chikderic,

Inverness 10/06/2007 17:54:53

If the taunts had been made for being English instead, this event would never been reported. Anti-English racism is alive and well in Scotland from the top echelons of the SNP down to the gutters of Glasgow.

71

Paul S.,

Mauricetown 10/06/2007 17:56:26

Dear #36,

Please be careful about using the word "we." I'm a patriotic American, and I can assure you that the current president of these United States of America is the biggest disaster that has ever hit this country.

I most assuredly do not support him or any of his bizarre ideas about 1) foreign policy, 2) religion and government,* 3) education, 4) social security, 5) and being the leader of a goverment which seems to act as if the "gunslinger as savior" western genre were its blueprint for action.

*I'll bet that if asked, as recently happened to the Republican candidates, if he believes in evolution, he would be among the dissenters.

If "we" support the president, then let us all on these pages know how it is that even whole bunches of Republicans are now voting against his crazed ideas.

Conservatives still go after Bill Clinton because he had trouble with keeping his zipper up. But now even they are going after one of their own for problems far more sinister than "chubby cheesecake" under the desk. BTW, La Monica is currenly at the London School of Economics, so she's not exactly "stooopid." Just had (has?) different tastes from some.

A well-known conservative columnist, whom I generally can barely read without losing teeth from gnashing, recently called Bush flat-out "incompetent." Period.

It seems that supporting Bush is a matter of faith and/or belief. Certainly it cannot be based in reason, logic, or love of humanity.

72

Pilar Lopez,

On boat tae CalMacistan 10/06/2007 18:29:35

I would say that the PC Brigade ... i.e. people who are neither 'political' or CORRECT' ... have boot the ball into their own net (forgive my pun)

... The PC brigade are naive with no genuine understanding of people's motivations ... however being pseudo-intellectuals who went to uni
... studied Sociology and Media Studies ... sold the "Socialist Worker"

... graduated ... then got their jobs as Equal Opps Officers at the Cooncil ...

... or a cushy joab in the meee-jahh

they actually spectacularly failed to understand the exact mechanics of what make one set of humans hostile to another set because they speak a different language / have more of a suntan / pray to a different "imaginary friend"

or wish to insert different probes into orafices whilst engaged in sexual relations etc

as I have said before Salmond's regime should bite the bullet
... and shut down all the Sociology and Media Studies courses that tax-payers spondoolics is wasted on

... Sociology graduates are naive fools who foist their pish on us as though it were the truth

so it is really not surprising that a certain sector of the great unwashed imbibe in unsavoury behaviour at football matches

why should taxpayers money be wasted on this airhead factory ... only to produce fools who wag their fingers whilst spouting keech from a Sociology book

It only leads to more confusion
... and does not enhance community cohesion or social harmony amongst folk from diferent ethnic backgrounds

73

Pilar Lopez,

On boat tae CalMacistan 10/06/2007 18:42:01

Now then some finger-waggin moralist with a bee in their bunnet will probably berate me now
... but I have been consistent here ... political corectness was a by-product of the Cold War

... it arose in Western Universities from a group of Liberals Nonces and Ponces who decided collectively to build a prison out of words
...and then get all holier than thou ... whilst wagging a collective finger !!

No this crap has got to be zapped!!
Political correctness ... like Multiculturism ... is an experiment which went HORRIBLY WRONG...

Look at the murder of Theo Van Gogh in broad daylight in an Amsterdam street
like at the case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali ... a brve woman whose outstanding courage should inspire us all

lets challenge this agenda defined by airhead Social Science graduates ...
we need to tackle this and soon ... as in NOW NOW!!

Sheeeezzzzzz!

74

,

10/06/2007 18:43:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
75

Auld-Farren,

10/06/2007 18:48:40

#65 Glenn

Away with your simmering resentment.

Long before the self-appointed PC police came along we had a thing called common decency. How about if we revive that as a rule of thumb…

Bottom line: reducing your fellow humans to an easily dismissible group is shallow and intellectually lazy--no matter who does it.

It’s heartening to see that the overwhelming majority of posts here unequivocally condemn racial mockery of any sort. I suspect that comes more from a sense of outrage over the violation of common decency than it does from an adherence to the dictates of the PC crowd.

Good on all of you.

76

is it me?,

Edinburgh 10/06/2007 19:06:52

Getting back to the nub of this article, why not round up these monkey- chanters and charge them with offensive behaviour . Then ,as has happened in the past ,send them overseas on a nice character-building holiday.

To Zimbabwe.

77

,

10/06/2007 19:09:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 699282, Article id was mapped to record!
78

Dougie - Edinburgh,

10/06/2007 19:34:23

67. California Scot
Since I do scientific research for a crust, I'm quite dismayed to learn that it's people like me keeping Scotland "behind the cutting edge of modern society"! Sorry if I don't want Scotland to become as multicultural as Brixton, Bradford, Oldham or Los Angeles for that matter. I love monocultural Scotland so I live here. You claim Scotland is a wonderful magnificent place - so why did you leave?

It's great that you didn't hear any gunshots while typing your post. Which city do you live in? Given the LA murder rate I’ll presume it’s not there.

I agree with you to a point that news articles describe the exceptional and interesting rather than the day-to-day reality. However I posted details of an incident in response to a specific challenge in another post. I like to base my opinion wherever possible on fact and statistics. In so many areas, from crime to education, healthcare to state finances, I can see considerable justification for considering multicultural California to be in deep trouble. Given the demographics and the support for organisations like MEChA and Nation of Atzlan, the situation seems sure to deteriorate.

You're right that blacks in America and around the world have high rates of poverty and unemployment. Interestingly, East Asian immigrants to California and Britain don't seem to seem to find "white racism" to be such a problem and in fact earn more on average than whites. I’ve yet to hear an explanation for white racism being so narrowly directed, nor why so many millions of Africans are willing to risk their lives to settle in racist white societies.

Any group beset by underachievement and failure seeks an external scapegoat. Immediately after Civil Rights and decolonialisation, these excuses were plausible. So many decades later, they've become ridiculous. Given all the affirmative action and political correctness around today, they've progressed beyond ridiculous to outrigh

79

AF Vet,

Washington, USA 10/06/2007 19:58:41

Unfortunately Scotland is not the only place that racism and bigotry exist!

and: Dear #36
Since you obviously don't read anything, let me enlighten you. I also live in the USA and #5 nailed it. There are less than 30% in this country who agree with your approval of the jerk in the white house or any of the rest of his incompetent fascist admininstration.

80

Dougie - Edinburgh,

10/06/2007 20:09:15

72. CASEY PURVIS

"OR ARE YOU TOO STUPID TO SEE THAT EVENTUALLY THERE WON'T BE A SCOTLAND"

We're too stupid. Stupid and subject to a sustained propaganda campaign that tells the most successful societies on earth that without an endless flow of immigrants from the least successful societies we somehow won't be able to cope. That some of the most densely populated countries in the world need more people - in Britain for example, house prices are now so expensive that middle income people's birth-rate has dropped:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

That the civil wars which have historically resulted all over the world when different cultures get mixed together (Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Lebanon, Bosnia, Gaza, Rwanda and Darfur), that all this can be ignored because we're far too advanced and liberal to be bothered by any of this (regardless of whether the local Taliban and Al Qaida wannabes both imported and home grown agree) despite the race riots erupting all over Europe (all but the largest unreported in Britain).

That the poverty and environmental destruction around the world is all our fault (especially in countries where the average woman has more than six children - Mali, Niger, Somlia and Afghanistan for instance – and places where the population has been doubling every twenty years).

In short, we're too stupid and provincial to pay attention to what's happening in the rest of the world. Who's having the babies and how many, what the evidence is that we can expect to successfully assimilate endless waves of immigrants many of which have been taught from an early age various grievances against our societies (whether Mexican victimhood about the USA, African victimhood about colonialism, Islamic victimhood about everyone else). What it means for our cultures if assimilation is unsucc

81

whatsyourname,

10/06/2007 20:15:47

# 2 # 6 Yes they might have heard that at home , I went to school in Dunoon when the American Navel was based there, and I remember over 100 black sailors running down the main street of Dunoon shouting and swearing breaking all the store windows and knocking down people and trampling them including an old lady whom was seriously injured even the police could not stop them they had to bring the police of the ship and some of there sailors to put an end to it, a local boy was also stabbed by them it was all over the news the town was a mess, what we heard the reason they ambushed our town was they were told by there officers they were not allowed to leave the ship,and they left the ship anyways ,and just went crazy.so who knows there parents probably did tell them,as it is something us Dunoon people will never forget. We went to school with mixed races and nobody cared we all got along.

82

dorothy,

10/06/2007 20:19:21

Media 1
Ever heard of a guy named Marshall Mathers?
I'm appalled at all the "They do it so we have to do it back" comments here. Racial taunts are unacceptable no matter which way they fly. Here, it is often the kids Spanish heritage making fun of the "anglo" kids (yes, as a Scottish-American the word for me here is Anglo). I have had to punish students for calling each other wetbacks, hueros and other less printable names. When my son's hockey team played in Texas, the other teams dubbed one diminutive but effective player the "Mexican Midget" (he took it as a badge of honor) and they often played la cucuracha on the PA when our boys took the ice.
In defense of Dougie, there is an advantage in recognizing the native culture as part of the multicultural effort. It just encourages hatred when you make the old-timers feel like outsiders in their own land. We were settled by Spaniards in the 1500s (that's old for the US) and the Pueblos have been in place since prehistory. No harm in giving credit where it's due.

83

dorothy,

New Mexico USA 10/06/2007 20:19:49

By the way here's where I am.

84

Virgil,

Vancouver,BC 10/06/2007 20:21:32

MACLEAN'S Magazine, Billed as Canada's Magazine of the year, cover for June 11th 2007 shows the Queen looking very distraught and the accompanying captions read, ENGLAND'S SHOCKING DECLINE-- The Queen's once-proud subjects now lead Europe in illiteracy, unemployment,teen pregnancy, divorce,drug use,obesity,alcoholism,crime and STDs. "Bloody Hell. P24".
Turning to P24 and reading for the next six pages we find that "ENGLAND should read BRITAIN" and if the statistics are to be believed Scotland too is a leader in all social deviance having the highest rate of cocaine use in Europe and claims that one child aged five or under is expelled from school every week. It is also claimed that politicians now claim a decline in marriage and family for social problems like ill health and promiscuity at the same time as they grab more than 30 percent from in every extra pound after 26 hours from a minimum wage earner.
The article also states that the "bravest and most admirable person in Britain today is the working -class man with children who clings to self provision when it would be far easier to get on the state teat". It is also claimed that the pubs are filled with deadbeats who blame their own apathy on the Poles and Rumanians and racism is rampant. All of this is from a National Magazine article which follows in the wake of a CBC Documentary on Glasgow as being the most illiterate and crime ridden city in Europe.
The MACLEAN'S article also takes a hit at London and claims the violent crime rate there is higher than any city in EU, and higher than Istanbul or New York City.
This article informs us of NEETS,a new acronym unfamiliar in North American lexicon, meaning "not in education, employment or training" and composes one fifth (1.2 million) of British 16-24 year olds. Commentators scratch their heads at how so many young people are able to get away with literally, doing nothing, when there is apparently wor

85

Pelon,

NM USA 10/06/2007 20:36:28

Chanting in the stands... Sounds immature, and they did ID the suspects as "boys". You know, 14YO brains are hardly developed, and very impressionable. There is popular entertainment... but that's been steadied, you wouldn't find such talk there. There is the news media... oh, but it isn't going to foster such speaking styles. How about school?... No, ethics have been strengthened. What's left?... that which is close at hand, like parents, siblings, acquaintenances and such.
We are ourselves. And our children become us.
Wouldn't it be wonderful to truly KNOW how mixed we all are? No? What evidence would we need? What evidence would become a flag in the wrong hands, declaring their purity in the midst of the muddle? What difference would evidence present? What if you learned that you ARE NOT what you thought you were, regardless of what YOU THOUGHT you were? What if you learned you ARE purely one, or another, or of a long list of the last that you ever wished to be? What if it mattered?

86

Pelon,

NM USA 10/06/2007 20:39:16

Oh, where is it proven that the American public elected Bush?

(Dorothy in NM !! You go!)

87

molu kikes,

basel 10/06/2007 20:40:06

well on certainity revealing over colour bashing the british goverment are actually contrarlily according to varies epitah quoted by any essay of critisim which has been formulated D H lawerence , and other british heritage and endeavour , on basis concerning to beating the black jacket because of undue ,and thus related to inferiority is its abig kingsect,the englkish fabian society has bill of right which does not based on any accomplishment but except self condour and respectiful to how the partridge society leave and survive in life full of harmony and loving

88

Keith Lagden,

10/06/2007 20:49:20

Rt Hon Enoch Powell (deceased) was right, Remember his speeches in the 60's

89

circa53,

Michigan 10/06/2007 21:00:14

Boo-Hoo....Wait till your little pretty towns and hamlets look like Detroit, and we'll see how high-minded, and liberal thinking your cries for diversity will be then. You Scots had better cherish what you've got now, cause its rapidly changing, and If you don't like it be prepared to be called the worn-out word RACIST. Take the LIBERAL stance with open arms and deal with the Black Rage, its all your fault. Get use to saying (Im Sorry).....And Then Scotland can be Just LIKE the United States!!!!

90

Angus Lindsay,

Shenzhen 10/06/2007 21:15:46

Here's another thread being vociferously hijacked by Americans. It inevitably leads miles off-topic, therefore without point.

If, dear North Americans, your knowledge of Scotland is based on newspaper and TV reports (alluding to Scotland as a subset of England), and tartan day parades, please leave the building.

91

WJR,

Leith 10/06/2007 21:44:23

#87, if you and fellow redneck sounding posters will insist on marching into and hijacking these boards then perhaps we can help you with the local spelling here - it would be "Black Radge" not "Black Rage".

Actually, Paul doesn't come across as a radge at all, black or otherwise, just a ballsy kid who is prepared to stick his head above the parapet and challenge unsociable behaviour and question the competence of those who run football.

Had quite enough of cr*p like #87 so I'll leave you to it guys, it's been a real eye opener. Looking forward to a good sleep and waking up safe in the knowledge that Scotland is very unlikely to ever become like the US - oh and maybe I'll go and beat the cr*p out of some Polaks. There's way too many of them here in Leith and that can't be a good thing can it?

92

Dougie - Edinburgh,

10/06/2007 21:53:39

88. Angus Lindsay, Shenzhen
Dear Dear, Angus, your post is horribly racist!

93

Angus Lindsay,

Shenzhen 10/06/2007 22:00:29

#90. Dougie
Explain please, before I call in the lawyers.

94

Suck-McCrunchie,

Doomster Hill 10/06/2007 22:05:44

FAO 36. Lady Belle

Did you mean pictures like this?

http://anoddlittleplace.typepad.com/ellens_nest/images/bu...

http://www.bsnews.org/pictures/images/1153461273_bush_cry...

http://www.ukuleleman.net/uploaded_images/bush_darwin%20m...

Now to address your incompetencies individually...

>What gives YOU the right to make fun of our president?

The first amendment of your constitution provides for freedom of speech (we have a similar one here too) - perhaps you were too busy eating when they covered this at school.

>You're not from this country...you do not know what we do...we support our president and his decisions.

Sadly I know exactly what you America does - largely what would be expected from the country responsible for about 48% of the world's expenditure on weapons (SIPRI figures). Its disputable if Bush did win the election as there did seem to be rather a lot of dubious events prior to and during your elections. Most americans dont support him now - which has been reflected in recent elections.

Additionally, his current policy of culling young unintelligent americans in foreign lands along with the nationals of those lands is offensive to all decent people.

There also seems to be a blindness to seeing that interfering in other countries really makes events like 11/9 likely to happen again.

> We do NOT appreciate your "monkey comments" about him. Don't knock what you do not understand.

I cannot guess why you feel you can speak as "we" - I can only presume you eat a lot and its based on your size.

> It makes you look an idiot, like the rest.<

95

Eric D,

Renfrewshire 10/06/2007 22:33:04

No 68 - There is no anti - scot racism in England
http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/

Nobody is forcing you to live here , if you dont like you know what to do ! ,

96

Dougie - Edinburgh,

10/06/2007 22:33:48

91. Angus Lindsay, Shenzhen
How about you explain to me how someone can be hypocritical enough to complain about racism in one post and then insult and stereotype Americans in the next?

92. Suck-McCrunchie, Doomster Hill
Nobody from Scotland should dare to criticise electoral imperfections in the USA. Our own recent elections were hardly smooth. I find your inane slurs of "loud mouthed americans" and their implied gluttony to be only slightly less pathetic than the monkey chants which started this discussion.

That's ok. I understand that the real reason for taking offence at racial insults is more about political point scoring and moral posturing than genuine concern for someone's hurt feelings. So I'm not denouncing you as an outrageous racist bigot - I'm just pointing out that you're not very witty.

97

Annlass,

Toronto,ON 10/06/2007 22:37:22

Virgil #82
I too read the MACLEAN'S story and like you I am horrified to think of what the future of Scotland (UK)
will be like.
You went to a lot of trouble to inform the commentators in this column of what you read, now I have a question for you.
Why do you bother to provide intelligent discusion into this post when no one really cares. Most of the people who respond are not interested in empirical matters.
Read the previous posts. It has become an ego thing. But keep commenting Virgil, I and a few others pay attention.

98

,

10/06/2007 22:52:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 699501, Article id was mapped to record!
99

Eric D,

Renfrewshire 10/06/2007 23:05:10

No 82 - MacLeans story is very depressing, but I'm afraid all too familiar story for many of us. What happened to your country ? Margaret Thatcher and generations of mis-management. Scotland is becoming a hell hole , that's why people are leaving in droves. The values just aren't there anymore. Young people dont work and older people cant find any. The streets are not safe , education has been dumbed down such that everyone gets an award just for turning up. 120,000 adults are on incapacity benefit in Glasgow alone , because the rewards are higher than working. In the face of this 100,000 low skilled immigrants are allowed of which few if any have any affinity with this country. Multiculturism and political correctness sell the message that everything is hunky dory , but the reality is very different indeed.

100

Angus Lindsay,

Shenzhen 11/06/2007 00:02:38

#94. Dougie - Edinburgh
"How about you explain to me how someone can be hypocritical enough to complain about racism in one post and then insult and stereotype Americans in the next?"

Well, if I actually felt it incumbent to explain to you, Mr Self-Importance ... I don't, but clearly I will have to, since you are either incapable of correctly interpreting my post #88, or are deliberately stirring the pot by irresponsibly deviating from its point.

Hypocritical it was certainly not, as any sane reader will attest. First of all, I did not complain about "racism" per se, and if you had taken the time to read my original post #2 instead of shooting from the hip there would be need to respond as you did.

If you choose to interpret post #88 as "insulting and stereotyping Americans" then you are either playing a coy game at being hypersensitive or are just plain dim. I only reiterated what has happened many a time on these boards where a couple of Americans onsite transmogrifies into a band of screamers who deviate so far from the point of the board as to render the reason for response to the original article insensible and pointless.

Now, perhaps you can tell the other posters on these boards, not me, how you justify your blatantly muck-stirring post #76 in non-hypocritical terms. Like you, I have reservations about a multicultural Scotland forced on us by stupid politicians, but equally I despise sick, cowardly name-callers like the feral idiots at the football match. That is a reference to the original article in case you had lost track.

If scientific research is indeed your way of earning a crust, I dread to think of the outcome of your experiments on a bad day.

101

Angus Lindsay,

Shenzhen 11/06/2007 00:35:01

#98
Careless typing in para 3. Should read "no need", of course.

102

Angus Lindsay,

Shenzhen 11/06/2007 00:55:47

#94.
We are not enemies. Just get your facts straight before blasting off.

103

Home again,

Fraserburgh 11/06/2007 01:10:21

Monkey chants, indeed! How dare they, the little heathens. The most disturbing thing I wonder about is if these young boys are learning his kind of terrible racism in their homes. Whoever runs the football association for this age group of boys should get out a letter, pronto, to tell parents that their boy will be banned from playing altoghether if he is caught making racist, hurtful remarks, chants, whtever. on the grounds that he doesn't have the intelligence to make a decent contribution to his football team. Oh, this makes me feel so ashamed of my fellow Scots: ; this stuff against black people is still there, buried down deep but still there and it is absolutely disgusting, ignorant, and a sign of dull-wittedness.

104

Home again,

Fraserburgh 11/06/2007 01:19:56

Ilived in Canada for over 50 years and assure you that most Canadians that I knew over that period of time would not take for gospel whatever they read in Maclean's.
It is one of those kinds of magazines that can, and often do, a superb job in reporting stuff that they have a real interest in; then they seem willing to spend research money and put their best people on a story. When it comes to a story on the U.K. believe me, there is no way it would be deemed deserving. So don't let Maclean's upset you too much. They are probably still struggling to sell copies, after all these years of eminent editors.

105

Suck-McCrunchie,

Doomster Hill 11/06/2007 02:34:33

94. Dougie - Edinburgh

You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of the major principles here. I will explain them to you in an attempt to prevent you looking stupid again.

You stated....

>Nobody from Scotland should dare to criticise electoral imperfections in the USA. Our own recent elections were hardly smooth....

Applying similar logic would then mean we would be unable to criticise monkey noises being made to black footballers in other countries, as it happened here too. So you are advocating that unacceptible behaviour in Scotland/the UK should not be criticised outwith these areas. Clearly you must see you risk being seen as racist for not speaking out about this whereever it happens?

>I find your inane slurs of "loud mouthed americans" and their implied gluttony to be only slightly less pathetic than the monkey chants which started this discussion.

America has the most obese nationals of any country. So I am concerned about the type of person who sees racism as only being slightly more pathetic than stating statistical facts.

Additionally, in many your your previous posts you seem to regard anti american feeling as being racist. However, excluding 'native americans' (which were clearly not being discussed), american is a nationality and not a race, and statistically quite a podgy nationality too.

Furthermore you took "loud mouthed americans" to be synonymous with "americans" - which is an easily made error, yet was never stated.


>That's ok. I understand that the real reason for taking offence at racial insults is more about political point scoring and moral posturing than genuine concern for someone's hurt feelings.

So far you failed to understand most of the main principles - so why should anyone rely upon your now stating you do understand something? Other than correcting your errors there is little interest in anything else you choose to inte

106

laurence,

toronto 11/06/2007 03:00:31

If the boy was Israeli being taunted or boycotted how many of you would be singing a different tune?

107

Suck-McCrunchie,

Doomster Hill 11/06/2007 03:33:24

We just discussed confusing nationality and race.

108

Keith Lagden,

11/06/2007 03:39:36

87. circa53, Michigan, this man is right on the money. The truth is hard to hear

109

whatsyourname,

11/06/2007 03:45:51

# 82 It sounds just like Canada they are going through the same thing just look at Hasting Street in Vancover,and Davie Street, and Stanly Park. And look at the States they are no better of so dont go blowing your whistle just look at your own back door, and the Government's wants this to happen so they bring in more policing more cameras and chips in your eye ball.

110

Cyril,

New Zealand 11/06/2007 05:03:52

We take people here for what they are, not their religion or race. Our Governor-General comes from a Fijian-Indian family, our Chief of the Armed Forces is a Maori and the Chief Justice is of Armenian extraction. Many of our prominent sports people are not white people. Two recent Prime Ministers were Catholics Many important people come from all walks of life and countries of origin.

111

Pilrig,

Livingston 11/06/2007 05:31:50

35 - re 11 Mark Walters was the first prominennt black player in Scottish fitba, so it was obvious there was going top be a bigoted reaction and it started amongst the charmers at Tynie. I think it (load of bananas flungs while Walters was about to take a corner) was well reported at the time.

43 - the KKK have arrived !

68 - p*sh

72 - we're doomed ! doomed, ah tell ye !


78 - we're doomed etc. (yawn)

112

Dougie - Edinburgh,

11/06/2007 07:51:12

98. Angus Lindsay, Shenzhen
My post 76 was clearly in reply to a previous post. The points I made were relevant to that previous post. It's no more "muck raking" than this entire article. I noticed you never explained how you can justify racist stereotyping of Americans.

103. Suck-McCrunchie
Very amusing, by your logic, perhaps Robert Mugabe should be lecturing Scotland about how to run an election!

Because Americans are not a "pure race", somehow it's ok to stereotype and insult them? Most nationalities are not pure races although most Americans are still from one racial group (for the time being). If the wee neds in the football stand were to argue that Nigerians are not a pure race, just a nationality then by your logic, the neds did nothing wrong!

You're welcome to quote statistics about Americans and I don't dispute them. If you do so, you shouldn't have any objections to unflattering statistics about Nigerians (or anyone else) being quoted. For a country where defrauding foreigners is the biggest exchange earner after oil, it's hardly going to be a short list.

This is the difference: because Nigerians are black, it’s accepted that to insult them (even by sticking to facts and statistics) is unforgivably “racist”. Because Americans are, for the time being, predominantly white– insult them to your heart’s content! Well that’s a hypocritical and stupid game for clowns to play. You’re playing it.

113

,

11/06/2007 08:41:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
114

Bellevue,

Victoria, BC 11/06/2007 09:26:31

#102 Homeagain,
It is not my intention to make this a Canadian thing but as a researcher in journalistic ethics I must comment on the statement you posted earlier. I like many other discriminating readers do not take as gospel, even the Gospel but we can assure you that the misinformation you provide in your misappropriation of MACLEAN'S is certainly not the view of millions of intelligeent readers. Mr Martin Newland who is no doubt familiar to you has sterling qualities in investigative journalism and therefore his sources are well documented and incidentally all come from within the bureaucracy of your own country.
#107 Whatsyourname,
Believe me their is no parallel in Canadian data to that posted in Martin Newland's story. Also, you cannot equate this country to the US or for that matter to the thousands of cameras keeping watch on the citizens of London. You have picked some geographic locations without knowledge of their environment. For example,to which part of the 11 mile stretch of Hastings Street are you referring? And is it the theatre and supper district or the Law Courts area of Davie Street to which you refer? And since Stanley Park is the last natural rainforest in North America and one of the most pristine and peaceful green spots for tourists, what's your point?It seems obvious that you have no knowledge of Vancouver and surrounding constituencies.
In no way is Canada without social problems but since it is impossible to gain unemployment benefits or welfare payments readily, we do have a society in which 87 percent of youth finish high school (17-18 years of age) and 51 percent of all high school graduates enter college or university we can pride ourselves in having one of the highest standards of living in the world.
I know that it must be difficult to have ones country compared to a third world nation, it bothers me too, but it is a fact and please don't keep your head in the sand in your attempts to deny it. Do somethi

115

The Man Who Knows,

Perth 11/06/2007 10:12:24

109 Pilrig

Thanks Pilrig but do you condemn that behaviour?

116

BOJAN,

Florida U.S.A 11/06/2007 13:22:48

#29, your correction of #27 pronounciation of the word, xenophobia is totally wrong my friend,,, this word is written by #27 correctly as the way it should be pronounced,,,zenophobia,,,,
such is the ways other people try to look for minor faults in a some what interesting subject that still exists in this present day Scotland,, its time to stamp out this disgusting behaviour, Sadly this subject begins at home. sad to say //

117

Angus Lindsay,

Shenzhen 11/06/2007 14:53:15

#110. Dougie
"I noticed you never explained how you can justify racist stereotyping of Americans."

Are you completely off your trolley? How can you expect me to "justify racist stereotyping of Americans" when I did no such thing?

In this respect you further shoot yourself in the foot in the same post with your logically tangled response to #103: "Because Americans are not a 'pure race', somehow it's ok to stereotype and insult them?"

Time to give up. Now go empty those bees out of your disturbed bonnet.

118

Dougie - Edinburgh,

11/06/2007 15:57:04

116. Angus Lindsay LOL
First you condemn racism and then in post 88 you complain about people based on their nationality??

119

Dougie - Edinburgh,

11/06/2007 16:00:46

115. BOJAN, Florida
The correct spelling is with x, post #29 corrected the spelling, not the pronunciation

120

Angus Lindsay,

Shenzhen 11/06/2007 18:26:29

#117. Dougie
Please give it a rest. You're like a bloody terrier at a postie's breeks. If you don't realise by now you are talking ordure then there's no hope for you.

For the last time - At #2 I condemned a stupid act by stupid people. Get it? Racism, the concept, in YOUR view, might be part of or all of the equation, but it was not the basis of my comment. I called it an act of ignorance. Just read it ... S-l-o-w-l-y. Then go away and give your head (and mine) a break.

So what if I made a comment about a bunch of people who effectively sabotage a forum? I couldn't give a damn if they were Martians or The Blessed Sisters of Shettleston. Happens it was Americans. So what? Everybody who reads these forums knows that this happens on a regular basis. Just telling it as it is.

And by the way, I agree with your reply to #18 above. (Xenophobia is pronounced Zeno ...) Americans have their orthographic idiosyncrasies. Now if you want to declare that a racist comment go ahead.

121

Angus Lindsay,

Shenzhen 11/06/2007 18:27:33

... reply to #118 I mean.

122

Dougie - Edinburgh,

11/06/2007 20:01:31

End of the day Angus, you're still complaining about people because of their nationality. Don't get me wrong, I don't really care, I just it's hypocritical of you to do that and then condemn others for racism.

123

Angus Lindsay,

Shenzhen 11/06/2007 20:47:30

#121
You are beyond help. Once more, I did not "complain" about anyone because of their nationality. Everybody has a nationality, and to say so in your idiotic terms means everybody complains about everybody because of their nationality. Fool.

And yet again, you dimwit, I did not "condemn" anybody for "racism". All of that is your infantile take. Now please go to hell with your baby bottle before men in white coats arrive for you to properly assist you in your "scientific research".

124

Dougie - Edinburgh,

11/06/2007 21:02:49

Angus you're getting quite worked up there aren't you!

125

Pilrig,

Livingston 11/06/2007 21:07:33

Of course I do.

126

Pilrig,

Livingston 11/06/2007 21:10:03

err.. the answer on 124 was for the Man who knows.

127

WJR,

Leith 11/06/2007 21:12:18

Dougie/Angus, guys could I make an appeal to you both?

This article is as much as anything about lack of common decency - see #73 from A-F. It just happens to take the form of a racist nature. The article's also about the failure of the football authorities to properly investigate and deal with such incidents. I get the impression that is a bigger frustration for Paul and Martin than the actual abuse.

I don't know if either or both of you are football fans but would it not be more be more constructive to ask the SFA to re-examine the incident and work with Paul, Martin and both clubs to see what could be done, even at this stage, to impose some sanction on the perpetrators?

You are obviously both bright and and articulate guys - would you not rather try and help in some way, I can't imagine either of you would appreciate being at any event, sporting or otherwise, where clowns act like this.

Once you have done that I look forward to resumption of your sparring!


 

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