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Police demand end to strike ban

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Published Date:
02 September 2007
RANK and file police officers in Scotland are privately discussing taking strike action as anger over their pay and conditions reaches unprecedented levels.
Scotland on Sunday can reveal that many officers want the 88-year-old legal ban on industrial action by police overturned by the courts.

Anger has been mounting for years over increasing police workloads, but a recent government pay offer of just
over 2% has left many constables on the verge of open revolt.

The Scottish Police Federation, which represents officers up to the rank of chief inspector, is increasingly the focus of anger among members after ruling out moves towards industrial action, warning it would be a "disaster".

One Strathclyde officer, who asked not to be named,

said: "It is time to act. For years we have bent over backwards to dig the government out of trouble and this is how we get repaid. We should get this ban lifted and then put the strike threat to a ballot. I, for one, have no doubt what the outcome would be."

He added: "Over the years we have been slowly stripped of every benefit we have had, from dental and housing help to plain-clothes allowance.

"The government is not interested in listening to us because they know that, at the moment, we are unable to fight back. There is nothing we can do to fight our own corner."

The ban on industrial action by police was introduced in 1919 following strikes by constables which, in some areas of Britain, led to "an orgy of looting and rioting".

Many police complain that their workload has increased massively in recent years without a corresponding rise in pay. The introduction of the European Convention on Human Rights added new duties, as have government crackdowns on issues such as using mobile phones while driving.

Ministers believe police are well paid. A police constable starts on £23,454, rising to £32,985 for the same rank after 10 years' service.

The government's latest pay offer of 2.3% - instead of the 3.9% demanded - has been described as the "straw to break the camel's back".

A Lothian and Borders officer, who also wanted to remain anonymous, said: "Our federation bosses need to understand the mood of their members. Many of them, including myself, think they are just toothless.

"Anyone can see the government is using the fact that we cannot currently strike to browbeat us into accepting a totally unacceptable offer."

The source added: "It is simple what they should do: employ a leading QC, go to court and get this ban overturned. Even if that does not work, it must, in this day and age, be illegal under the Human Rights Act to prevent us from taking such action."

One experienced Dumfries and Galloway officer said the calls for the possibility of strike action had become much louder in recent months.

He said: "We have had problems before but we have always managed to reach some sort of agreement, but this is different. The lads who I work with are very, very annoyed.

"Now we are realising that the only way we can ever have any power to prevent being pushed around is to have this ban on strike action removed. We need that power. Without it, we will always be in this situation."

Joe Grant, general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, refused to comment on the calls among members for industrial action, except to say having the right to strike "would be a disaster". But he conceded police officers had a right to be angry.

"Gordon Brown tells us one thing but does another," he said. "He says we do a fantastic job and we should be treated specially, but he has torn up our pay deal."

The federation is trying to defuse pressure for industrial action by urging officers to directly petition their MSPs. It is providing a detailed letter which individual officers can fill in and send to the Scottish Parliament.

South of the Border, Jan Berry, the Police Federation chairman of England and Wales, warned that, despite the union's opposition to strike action, it could eventually be the only route open to their members. She said the government could be "on course for an all-out war" and added: "I believe it would be a tragedy for policing if police officers were ever forced to go on strike - it is the last thing police officers want, but push them any further and the last thing they want might just become their only option."

Glen Smyth, chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation was more blunt, saying: "Officers are bloody angry. They feel they are being treated really badly."

A Home Office spokesman said: "The government recognises the vital and hard work which our police carry out every day.

"That is why pay has increased by over one-third in the last 10 years. That is 36%, to be precise. That is 10% above inflation. Pay agreements must be fair and affordable for the police force and the taxpayer."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 September 2007 10:34 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Law and Order
 
1

Boy Wonder,

02/09/2007 00:00:06

No. This is one lot you don't want striking. They so often become the government's private army to break other strikes ... usually quite violently. They can't have their cake and eat it! It's just not on!

2

Guga II,

Rockall 02/09/2007 01:08:23

If they want the right to strike, fair enough, but they should also have to accept the same sort of conditions as other workers; e.g. if they break the law, they actually get punished for it. If they murder someone, they get sent to gaol for life, if they beat someone up, they get done for assault. Also, if they are incompetent, they get the boot.

In any event, most of them get pretty well paid to swan about in their warm patrol cars, busting the odd person with a wee bit of grass, harassing teenagers, harassing motorists, and strenuously avoiding chasing real criminals.

3

Paul Mac,

Deepest Scotland 02/09/2007 05:17:16

Boywonder No1.

Absolutely right. They join the job as the Governments Heavy Mob and use their violent tactics to break any other strikes. Who will break their strikes?

It's typical of that lot. Take the job and conditions and then we'll have the good bits but leave out the bad bits. Where else can you get an apprenticeship of trainee job at a start of £23,454. I think they get a very good deal ... especially when you consider how hard it is to get rid of a rotten one.

For a job that was once a working class occupation and rose under Thatcher to be a middle class one they do well.

4

beeree,

02/09/2007 06:08:04

Read this, From an advert for Police community support officers.

"As a police community support officer (PCSO), you will work on the frontline of your local force, providing a visible and reassuring presence on the streets and tackling the menace of anti-social behaviour.

PCSOs have different roles in different forces, but they usually patrol a beat ........"

I might have it wrong but is this not what we expect from the police. If the police are not performing as required by their employers how can they expect a pay rise?

5

Cappo Del Monte,

02/09/2007 06:10:01

Id suggest asking ex miners to police their picket lines etc.
I am sure they would love it and enjoy it

6

response,

Syd 02/09/2007 06:34:09

Ask the coal miner's about the way they were treated on the picket line's by the polis when maggie Thatcher closed the mine's.

7

Paul Voltaire,

02/09/2007 06:46:01

Hark!
I hear the soound of the world's smallest violin playing for the polis.

8

ddmc,

02/09/2007 06:59:11

It's a pity the NUM is now defunct, i'm sure there are 0000's of ex miners & families who would be happy to supply anti picketing forces to 'police' the fuzz. That would be revenge served cold.

9

fife runner,

02/09/2007 07:04:56

in the late 70's I was part of a group who met with the inetnt of seeking to take industrial action. we were closely monitored by senior officers. the press were there and when they tried to film the senior spies, the spies made a quick exit.

conditions have now become erroded. eg working day off. instead of being paid o/t officers wll be given another day in lieu. this does not compensate if you have made plans for that day. I could go on.

10

Paul Voltaire,

02/09/2007 07:15:24

#10
My heart may bleed for you and fellow polis but I wouldn't bet on it.

11

Alasdair McWhirter,

From a discraded tardis 02/09/2007 07:45:28

#5 "I might have it wrong but is this not what we expect from the police. If the police are not performing as required by their employers how can they expect a pay rise"

beeree - yes, you are quite correct, this is exactly what we expect from our police, but the government, supported by lily livered high ranking police officers, have decreed that policing should be done on the cheap. A week or so ago a force down south appointed two 16 year olds as PCSOs. Its become nothing other than a numbers game and you can employ several 16 year olds for the price of one properly trained and experienced PC. Looks good on paper and at least the other cop knockers on here would be pleased that there aren't any real, proper cops out there, until some ned is kicking their head in or taking a nail file down the side of their precious cars. Let me think, who are the first people they shout for???????

12

P I Staker,

02/09/2007 07:54:03

A Lothian and Borders officer, who also wanted to remain anonymous, said: "Our federation bosses need to understand the mood of their members. Many of them, including myself, think they are just toothless.

Hmmm, what this, yet another anonymous, officer didn't say is that whilst the federation is constrained by clearly defined boundaries and are the first ones he/she will go running to when they get themselves into trouble, they haven't the first idea of what the negotiating mechanism is. Nor do these officers have the b*lls to take up a federation position, its easier to sit round the table at piece time and complain about it.

13

Dai the sand,

Oldmeldrum 02/09/2007 07:58:14

Will the police inform us if they are on strike, otherwise we will never know, calling for their assistance now, is somewhat pointless, if they are on strike, there is absolutely no point.

14

A Scott,

Glasgow 02/09/2007 08:15:19

#2 The police do a good job in difficult circumstances and stupid comments from that self important prize numphty Guga 2 or is it 11 ( did he not used to call himself Guga fae Rockall , least I think it was Rockall) dont help.. Diddy...............

15

Joe90,

Erehwon 02/09/2007 08:17:31

I can't believe the vitriol expressed in the above posts. My son is a Strathclyde policeman with three years service and earning around £26000 pa basic. Out of this he pays 22% tax on about £21000, 11% NI, pension contribution, federation dues, etc, etc. This leaves about £1500 per month to pay his mortgage, and other expenses. Result, he is permanently in thrawl to his credit card.

He works permanent shifts which play havoc with his sleep patterns and his private life, often being awake when others are sleeping peacefully. The job is extremely dangerous and he has to wear a most uncomfortable anti-stab vest ALL the time. With short staffing, sickness, earned leave, on-going training etc, his squad is often down by 50% and sometimes more. On one occasion, he turned up for night shift to find that he and one other only were available for duty to cover a rough 400 square mile territory! He and his partner have to deal with domestic flare-ups, suicides, drug deaths, neighbourhood disputes, fights, increasing yobbery, insulting names like some of those above (fuzz, pigs, etc), theft, assault AND being assaulted! I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture. One of my son's colleagues is currently on suspension for an alleged assault on a yob he arrested. Probably false, but meanwhile a dedicated officer is twiddling his thumbs at home and his station is down one more body. Hardly efficient. The same posters above frequently rant about the unfairness of criminals being protected by their 'human rights' whilst victims suffer. This young man is a victim. Whatever the outcome of the case, whenever it finally comes to court, there will be a permanent 'mark' on his record and his career will certainly be adversely affected. Some job: I wouldn't have it as a gift at twice the salary. Everybody's whipping boy but still the first person to turn to when something goes wrong in your neighbourhood!!

And promotional prospects? A laugh! Sit and pass

16

P I Staker,

02/09/2007 08:29:24

#16 Joe 90 that pretty well sums it all up, but it suits those above who make derogatory comments to ignore the reality of it.

17

JG,

Fife 02/09/2007 09:03:20

I think the general public are unsympathetic because they can't get a response from the Police when they feel they should (due to staff shortages etc.) yet there's always enough of them on duty to catch you doing 4 miles over the speed limit on your way home from work. Part of the problem with the set up at the moment is that they have people running the show who couldn't actually go out and do the job themselves. Or as Dirty Harry said "A man's got to know his limitations" - clearly they don't!

18

GD,

Stop I want to get off 02/09/2007 09:08:46

Not a bad salary when you consider that ambulance crews are paid somewhere in the region of £15,000.

19

GD,

Stop I want to get off 02/09/2007 09:25:35

I think they need to split the police force into different divisions and pay structures depending on the type of work they do. For example why should two traffic cops who just drive around all day issuing tickets be paid £30,000+ per year each whilst a young cop on the beat being confronted with daily hassle and possible violence may be paid just over £20,000?
Traffic monitoring could easily be done by a traffic warden group instead of using valuable trained policemen who could be used for better things.
Isn't it extraordinary that the Police still place such importance on the policing of motorists when we have so much violence on our streets?
Get the cops on the beat dealing with real crime and leave traffic offences to a new traffic warden group who certainly won't command salaries like those expected by traffic cops.

20

Toast,

02/09/2007 09:32:22

#14 good point,police rarely bother to attend most reported crimes any more,£23,000 for doing what,sitting in a car all day and drinking tea,virtual immunity from driving offences,if they start performing the service they are employed for ,them a wage increase may be warranted.

21

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

02/09/2007 09:54:05

I can't believe the polis are lookingfor public sympathy. they won't get any.

They are the most pampered of all public service workers... often when any of them get caught doing something very naughty, they pull out a sick note from some very understanding GP and take early retirement on a pension without facing disciplinary action.

People know the salary scales and employment conditions before they join. Stop bleating and get on with your job or leave the force and get a real job.

There are 18 year olds facing bullets and mortars every day in Afghanistan earning less than these monkeys. Don't make me laugh about the dangers police officers face.

22

wisdom,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 10:08:02

The police are well paid as it is and have enthusiastically supported employers against workers on every ocasion when workers have had reason to strike.When compared with the workload,stresses,pay and long working hours of members of the armed forces,who do a genuinely dangerous job, police pay,benefits and,working hours,overtime pay,pensions etc.should be reduced,not increased.The right to withhold labour however is basic and applies to all workers,even members of the police force...but are they willing to fracture that cosy relationship that exists between police and government? They are after all servants of the state not the people.

23

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 10:30:54

#2 Guga Knows F*****l

Can you have tell us what happened to you to get so virulently anti-police? If you've been fitted up let us know. More likely they've done their job and charged you with something. Probably a wee traffic offence that's been gnawing at your vitals for years. Your attitude is either juvenile or one of the largest bunch of sour grapes on here. Grow upo you odious wee man.

24

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 10:36:34

And to the rest of you, let's roll on the strike. A good, long protracted one. Maybe at the same time as the prison officers. Thanks to NuLabour there's very little Army to replace them. We'll soon see what the polis do for us when the hordes of criminal scum go unrestrained.

25

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 02/09/2007 11:10:24

Would anyone notice if they were on strike? Can I put my name on the list to police any picket lines and I know quite a few miners who would pay their own travelling expenses to join me

26

ROSCO,

02/09/2007 11:17:18

Don't kid yourselves here. The police will only have to withdraw their labour for one hour between 1am and 2 am on a sunday morning to get everything they want. There would be no picket line, no marching to Westminster, just no police, full stop. its called anarchy !!

The next time the prison officers go on strke do really think the rank and file polis are going to step in if they are getting offered an even lower pay deal

27

backshift,

02/09/2007 11:40:37

As a serving officer, I can assure you that most police officers do not want to go on strike because they see what it would do to society and themselves if they did. But what they are is totally frustrated with a government who has reneged on pay deals and negotiations which have been in place for many years. This is precisely what they have been doing with the Prison Service this week (the Police have to step in to cover the Jails!), Fire Service (the Police and Army covered the last strike 4 years ago) and, last year, the Nursing Service in Scotland (the Police covered the ambulance driver's strike 15 years ago).
The Govenment have gone back on deals which they were committed to honour but the word "honour" is far from their agenda. Ask yourself how they are able to pay vast sums to each other by way of expenses, cash incentives not to stand for election and golden shandshakes and you'll see what I mean.
As for morale, it has never been lower in the police, partially due to the remuneration package and partially due to having to meet meaningless targets for faceless bureaucrats who haven't the foggiest idea, nor do they care, about having to serve a community. The administarors wish for parking exemptions at Fettes in Edinburgh is a perfect example of how the self perpetuating administrators see themselves as somehow more important than operational officers.
We are constantly tied up with form filling and paperwork to feed an ever larger administrative machine and the time is not far off when, like the health service, the administrators and bureaucrats outnumber those delivering front line service.
Have a laugh if you must about warm cars and tea drinking but most of wish to be out there on our feet, serving our community, being in contact and approachable and dealing with the real issues that the public wish us to deal with. We do not wish to meet some idiotic target to justify some politician's existence just to give stat

28

Janice,

02/09/2007 12:17:15

I totally support #16 and #29 and can't believe some of you morons who seem to take great delight in police bashing. Shame on the lot of you!!!

29

wisdom,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 12:46:05

#29....if the police sincerely believe that they have a case then they should strike.They should not succumb to any form of moral blackmail.Sitting and discussing the pros and cons with your superiors will get you nowhere.There are times when compromise and a sense of fair play have to be put aside and ruthless detemination have to be employed to achieve your goal.The amount of power which the police hold in their hands can be used to achieve what they consider to be a fair deal.The state cannot operate without them.They are indispensable.I have little respect or liking for the police but I will support any strike action they take....have the courage of your convictions ,or shut up.

30

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 12:55:52

#31 Wisdom

The trouble for the police is two-fold. Firstly, it is ILLEGAL for them to strike. Despite what you and a*******s like Guga think, the vast majority of officers are honest and essentially honourable men and women who have joined to uphold the law and not knowingly break it. Secondly, they are accutely aware of the consequences for those they have sworn to protect, the weaker and honest people in society who are less able to protect themselves. This scabby government knows that it can exploit this, as it does with the nurses and the prison officers. The prison officers have shown that people can only be pushed too far.

31

JG,

Fife 02/09/2007 12:56:52

#31 wisdom
That is the whole point - it is illegal for the Police to strike. There would have to be a change in the law to permit them to do that.

32

PC McGarry#452,

999 Letsby Avenue 02/09/2007 13:26:10

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men (and women) stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

George Orwell.

Like last night having to deal with a nutter who wanted to cave my head in with a very large spanner. The dafties on here don't have the bottle to do what we do. I for one will, regrettably, walk out the door if the time comes.

33

mr angry,

ayrshire 02/09/2007 13:31:13

they need a dose of work in private companies where people can go 5 years without pay rises , get no pension , and don't get to retire early on a big wad and have to work their bollocks off.
If they don't like it go and get a better job elsewhere, see if its as rosy as they think.
As it is I doubt we would miss them , just means no speeding fines etc.

34

EdwardUrsus,

Ayrshire 02/09/2007 13:39:24

Yes please let the police go on strike, then we could arrange for men on horse back to baton charge them or dress people in one piece overalls, mask their faces and remove any identification to attack them. I don't think what I'm proposing is illegal as it seems to be normal police tactics when dealing with national strikes.

35

Suck--McCrunchie.,

http://www.stirlingpark.net for public contracts? 02/09/2007 14:17:20

They are overpaid for what they do.

Offer them truncheon vouchers and tell them to p*ss off!

36

Discretionpvs,

Next to the moose, central Canada 02/09/2007 14:19:09

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the bad pay is the reason the service is not so good?
If one considers the buying power of the pound vs the Canadian dollar, they are about equal in our own countries. Toronto police are now over the $60 000 per annum figure, and they, and their brethren in the Ontario Provincial Police and the RCMP deserve every cent they get. Now I can truly understand why there are so many ex-coppers from Britain on our police services. They want to live decently.
Even Nick Rowan left Heartbeat to go to the RCMP.

37

Discretionpvs,

Next to the moose, central Canada 02/09/2007 14:23:16

I'm also inclined to believe that all the anti-police posters have had bad experiences with the police. I've had my own experiences with them, but they do have a nasty job. I know. My dad came home off shift more than once somewhat the worse for wear as a Toronto cop. Walk the walk, people, then see if that meager salary is enouigh for the bullsh** they take.

38

,

02/09/2007 14:28:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 929035, Article id was mapped to record!
39

Tarchin,

Lothian 02/09/2007 14:30:46

The pay levels and structures of the police, firefighters, ambulance crews and nurses all require urgent examination by the government(s). All persons employed in these services do unpleasant and often dangerous work for poor salaries.
#16 A nurse would have to be quite senior in order to command a salary of £26.000pa.
#28 Any of the above professions withdrawing their labour for one hour would put peoples' lives at risk

40

pehman,

sussex 02/09/2007 15:17:21

MINERS WANTED

TO MAINTAIN ORDER OF

POLICE STRIKERS

41

Steiny from downunder,

Perth, Western Australia 02/09/2007 15:30:07

For the attention of all anti-police posters.Who would you call in the middle of the night if someone were to break into your house armed to the teeth. I bet you wouldn't be so anti police then. The situation is the same the world over, pollies praise police,servicemen & women etc when they want to get a positive profile in the press and there is no talk of wage rises.. However they will give themselves pay rises without hesitation but then talk about wage restraint by the normal working man, be he police officer or cleaner. We mean nothing to them until election time. Then we get all the drivel that goes with it. Once upon a time {another fairy tale beginning}, pollies actually tried to do something for the common man. That died when Julius Caesar was assasinated.
Police will protect you, politicians won't! They deserve their pay rises. Politicians DON'T.

42

adogcatcherwearsauniformto,

dry but windy eastlovia 02/09/2007 15:51:49

Lets see, joined Royal Navy transfered to Royal marines got shot at didn't like that.

Joined plods didn't like their condesending, abuse and derogatory attitude towards their employer, the public, So I left and got a job I like, enjoy and feel respected at.

So if your unhappy with your job change it. It really is that simple, either get on with it or get out the choice is yours.

43

Glenshellach,

Canada 02/09/2007 16:24:39

What's criminal nowadays is not what police and other essential services are paid, but the ridiculous salaries of sports, TV personalities, business executives etc who make very little real contribution to the good of society.

44

Suck--McCrunchie.,

http://www.stirlingpark.net for public contracts? 02/09/2007 16:40:53

40. JG

I based it on three friends who are in the police, one who earned 'over 30 000ukp' in overtime last year for what she described as 'doing b*gger all'.

Another said she was an idiot for doing that much, as he saw no point as 'you lose so much after falling into 40% tax'.

The last is on 'light duties' after falling badly when chasing someone. This means paperwork during the day, but she is a promoted rank and there is not much to do so goes home, and he is currently helping another friend out as a barmaid.

Between the three of them they have virtually no qualifications.

Did you know the police don't even attend automated alarm call outs now as they say they are normally false alarms?

45

wattie>x 1,

02/09/2007 16:46:55

In a truly democratic society - we are continuially being reminded the UK is - every toiler, whatever his or her vocation maybe; should have the right to withhold their labour when being unjustly treated; provided the decision is reached in a democratic fashion. Those who fashion and decide the law can manipulate it, to suit their own requirements. Those who have to get out of their bed to go and toil to ensure that the country functions, are not allowed to share in that luxury.
The present shower of Champagne socialists make sure they never have to take industrial action when they wish to plunder the gravy train.
So, why should any other section of the public be denied the right to defend their living standards? The present political impostors have squandered billions upon billions of taxpayers contributions to the exchequer purse and in the process, have rapidly reduced the country to almost Third World Status in the process.
I have no particular fondness for the police at the present moment as daily crime keeps soaring out of hand; but, I most certainly wouldn't like to wake up tomorrow morning without them being available.
Good luck to them! They are only a fragment off the impending industrial unrest as the general cost of living keeps spiralling out of control under the prudent Brown.

46

walter,

02/09/2007 16:49:11

I wonder it the police did go on strike would they set up picket lines outside every station including the stations where the officers did not go on strike.
Would those officers on strike prevent the officers who were not on strike and anybody else who worked in the stations that they were picketing from going to work and earning a living by use of verbal threats and/or physical violence.
Would the striking officers murder taxi drivers who are taking their passengers to work in one of those stations and would their leaders condone this murder.

47

JG,

Fife 02/09/2007 17:19:59

#46 Suck...........
I hope your Police barmaid friend doesn't get caught or else she will be sacked. I also think the others are pulling your leg! I looked up a chart for Police hourly rates (Sergeant & Constable) for last year and for your friends to be earning £30,000 in overtime annually they would have to be working just over 70 hours a week. You pay 40% after you earn £33,300 anyway and Inspectors and above don't generally get overtime as it was incorporated into their salaries a few years ago - they all voted for it!! The promoted firend you have would at least have to have passed Police promotions exams and a further process to actually be promoted, so will have the equivalent of vocational qualifications. Obviously I don't know about the others.

Some of the larger forces haven't attended at automated alarms calls for quite a while now - it was always the same ones that went off and the keyholders became wise to the fact it would be a false alarm so didn't burst a gut to get there.

48

freedomfries,

02/09/2007 18:45:30

Hey PC McGarry #34

A classic example of a narcissistic misfit in a uniform. Don't kid yourself that we're all wee frightened lambs waiting for TJ Hooker to come and save the day. If your such a hard man why did you join the coppers? Fighting for justice?...or does the pepper spray and truncheon give you the stiffy you could never use at school?

The arrogance of your post is incredible. And sorry to point this out, but I think quoting Mr Orwell (of all people) in your proud claim in being a violent man, surpasses absurd and quite frankly, tells me a lot about your bookshelf. Stick to Bravo Two Zero you idiot.

49

wisdom,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 18:56:29

#32,Draco....I am not daft enough to believe the policeman is my friend....they lead a priviledged existence...in the real world where we live life is hard and stressful and as for strikes being unlawful,who cares about that,the Uk is engaged in two illegal wars...these policemen should get a REAL life and WORK for a living.....Scotland needs a good shake up and we can start by having a police force that is there to serve the community,not politicians in Westminster or Holyrood...they need to earn the trust and respect of the people and they can start by ceasing to complain about their pay and conditions.Their lot is no worse than that of the people who work to pay their wages.

50

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 19:11:37

# 32 'wisdom', now there's a misnomer

Sorry to shock you, but the majority of civilised citizens do, like me, still trust and respect the police and the job they do. I don't know where your 'real' world is. By the sound of it some student politics dreamworld where the police represent the oppression of the State. Or perhaps an existence on the fringes of criminality where the police are seen as the enemy. I'd be interested to know that you do that so exhausts you compared to the average copper.

51

EdwardUrsus,

Ayrshire 02/09/2007 19:23:41

Draco :- Although not addressed to me I hope you don't mind if I give my view on your post. I have two points to make. The first that I was like you and trusted and respected the police, I was brought up to believe the policeman was your friend. This ended when I watched police with covered faces and no ID numbers clubbing down striking miners in my mind they had moved from being protectors of the public to a tool of opression. I'm not saying the miners were angels in any way but to watch police on horseback launch cavalry charges at miners was frightening. To me that's when they stopped being our police and became their (govt) enforcers.
My second point is to those who mention the dangerous or unpleaant part of the job, that is like me complaining I had to enter burning buildings when I was a fireman. If you don't like that aspect of the job then don't join.

52

wisdom,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 19:41:03

#53You really are a WIMP aren't you....you don't speak for the majority.You speak for those who hold your views......and for civilised don't you mean 'TWEE'...for your information my REAL world has been 17 years in the armed forces in troubled areas of the world where the police do go in daily fear of their lives...You are a pompous conceited windbaq
...the worst type that Edinburgh can produce.Yes ,I was a student once,in the sixties and together with the mining communities I have witnessed the police oppression on behalf of the state....the job I did in the forces is well beyond the capabilities of the average copper you talk describe.For the record,I have no criminal convictions.

53

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 20:50:51

#55 wisdom

In your sad wee student dreams did you witness 'oppression'. If you think that anyone has suffered in this country in a way that compares with some of the countries where you've supposedly served, I suspect you've done your time in the Pay Corps. And for YOUR record, Edinburgh didn't produce me. Mining stock I'm afraid and witnessed behaviour in the village that wasn't exactly noble, on both sides.

54

timbrusky,

Texas, U.S.A. 02/09/2007 20:54:35

Anarchy. Total Civil Distress. When our Police can strike, well, our civilization has effectively ended. Men in Texas when they pin a badge on their shoulder means something. It means they will defend to their death the societies rules of law and order. Their solemn oath is to defend order, even if they are not compensated. This has happened several times in our Texas history, and probably will be repeated again. TIM

55

BPRFC,

02/09/2007 21:36:13

Some of these posts are quite funny but as Billy Connelly once said; I don't come to your work and tell you how to sweep up. Yes, policing is a public service and yes tax money funds it but how and why does that give total numpties the right to spout off like they have the first clue about policing? Comical. No one bats so much as an eyelid at firefighters who can spend entire shifts asleep on tax money, they are the homecoming hero because they do nothing contentious. Actually speak to some of them and you'll find that they take great pleasure in using their legislative right to knock in your door, water damage everything in sight with complete impunity. More damage is done when they arrive than would ever have occured if they stayed asleep.
As for the miners working any police picket lines...did any of you sheep who reiterate the same point as the first poster to mention it, thinking you've hit a really salient point actually attend any of these picket lines?? Don't even talk to me if you didn't because you will not have a single, solitary clue how horrible it was to work. Spat at, punched, kicked, all manner of stuff thrown at us by a few rent-a-thugs who were there with the express intention of causing hassle..much to the chagrin of the genuinely aggrieved and hard working miners. The lot of you need to STFU unless you were there and know what you're talking about. Any affirmative action taking by my serial was warranted and in my opinion should have been taken sooner but we had sympathy for the miners and in general had some decent banter with them on most days.
Policing isn't easy contrary to popular belief, yes we signed up for it but so did the soldiers who are currently dying abroad so to compare the 2 is stupid. I know I don't have the balls to go to war but if I did I'd have comparable equipment to the enemy....the same can't be said of your average bobby. If you think that not attending calls is just bone idleness on the part of th

56

wisdom,

Edinburgh 02/09/2007 21:53:33

~56...Draco...Thank God Edinburgh didn't produce you.Scotland's disgrace sits on Calton Hill.Reading your drivel I was beginning to think that it was walking around on two legs,that you were the animated version....Mining stock are you? then you must have SCAB written on your back in big yellow letters,a brown tongue and very sore knees from crawling to the establishment.I didn't supposedly serve and you suspect wrong,it wasn't the Pay Corps either.I served with men of good working class stock who would not treat you in the mannerly way I do.I had student dreams,like most young men.Now I am very pragmatic.I KNOW you haven't experienced what I have.....warfare and lawlessness where policemen earn their pay....sit in your armchair,buy your police friends a beer and write more drivel....you're giving lots of folk on this site a good life....draco was a WIMP indeed!

57

EdwardUrsus,

Ayrshire 02/09/2007 21:57:41

BPRFC :- Coud you enlighten us as to where those firemen work that take great delight in causing damage to people homes and property? In all my time in the fire service I can't recall anyone like that. At training school it is drummed into you to try and cause minimum damage with water and if posible to salvage what you can. You ask about the picket lines, as someone who lives in an ex mining area I did see police commit assault, I did see police with no ID number or name on their coveralls act in an illegal manner and believe me the result is that the police are still seen as oppressors in many ex mining areas, Thatchers stormtroopers was the descriptive I recall. I do understand the need for a police force in any civilised country but the part the UK police had in helping to destroy mining communities throughout the UK was a disgrace. So by all means go on strike but don't complain if some group is brought in to treat you the way you treat other strikers and don't complain when people no longer trust and respect the police if they alianate themselves from the community through arrogance. The sad thing that so many of you don't realise is that having been used to smash the working class you are no longer needed in that role so the government sees no need to treat you wel. Welcome to the working class

58

EdwardUrsus,

Ayrshire 02/09/2007 21:59:01

PS. On the above post I also meant to ask, under what circumstances you feel less damage would be done to a house on fire if firemen don't turn up to fight the blaze.

59

Verdun Breac,

elgin 02/09/2007 22:19:59

Let them strike. They would not be misted! The only thing they are good for is attacking the speeding motorist. And lets face the facts, they are, pro-rata, largest accident prone, and largest speeding drivers on the road! Anything else, and they suddenly become invisible, or not available, until well after the incident has happened. They are there just to protect the criminal, NOT THE VICTIM.
Having had dealings with high ranking police officers, on the right side of the law for 18 years, from Scotland yard downwards, I wouldn't trust a copper in front of me, let alone out of my site. AND, WHO WATCHES THE WATCHMAN, BUT, THE WATCHMAN!!! Same as the medical profession. Scratch my back and I will scratch yours!!

60

conservative,

Fife 02/09/2007 22:30:23

Short working hours.
Retire young on a super pension courtesy of my taxes.
The opportunity to take compassionate leave, stress leave, anything-you-don't-like-leave.

And striking into the bargain!

Go on boys (and girls) - milk it why don't you.

61

conservative,

Fife 02/09/2007 22:32:06

#57, timbrusky

This is Scotland -hadn't you noticed?
Noone here given a flying whatever for Texas (where is it by the way?).

62

Suck--McCrunchie.,

http://www.stirlingpark.net for public contracts? 02/09/2007 23:49:44

49. JG

I am sure they know she is working - but I think the 'light duties' thing is to cover them from someone getting a recurring injury, and they don't really seem to police themselves much.

I don't doubt that the 'overtime fiend' earned what she claimed, as she bought a German convertible and covered the deposit for a buy to let flat

I have drank with them in the Police club in Lochinch in Glasgow quite a few times, and when it closed a large percentage drove to other places where a blind eye was turned to after hours drinking and the drinking and driving to get there. One was a bowling club and the other a pub on Paisley Road West.

One night we stayed until the morning, then went to a city centre hotel who provided breakfast free in their staff canteen, which had more than a few uniformed cops there.

Regarding taxation, the 40% threshold is far higher, as when I was a consultant it was beneficial to effectively be a company that employed myself, and share the profit with my family who became employees too.

Two years ago the ceiling for this per person was about 37 thousand, so I guess your 33 thousand figure is the taxable figure after the tax free allowance, or the band for the standard marginal rate.

63

Navvy,

03/09/2007 02:51:20

The miners, ex-miners and their sympathisers have got it wrong. They, an unelected few tried, repeatedly to hold the country to ransom. They intimidated, bullied and sometimed injured any who did not agree with them. They followed Arthur Scargill's lead and who knows who provided him his agenda. They were, thank goodness, out smarted and a bye product of their stupid arrogance and lust for enelected power was the almost complete demise of our coal mining industry.

Had they not tried to hold the country to ransom we would have had fewer gas fired power stations and would be less beholden to Russia for our gas today.

64

possum,

Australia 03/09/2007 03:28:28

What a bunch of numptys, how long ago was the miners strikes? it wasn't pretty on both sides, move on and get a life what we have here is a shocking ability to live so far in the past - what is real life about that!! Why use this as an excuse to police bash - I would like to see how you would all cope walking into a room with a rather ripe corpse, or dealing with the death/murder of small children or adults alike, maybe finding a couple of junkies who on shooting up had a bad batch and just died where they sat for all the world looking as if they were just taking a nap - add to that the high risk of infection from whatever is being spat at them etc. What they have to deal with is horrid, they deserve to be paid accordingly, same goes for the nurses. Granted there are the few wasters in the force (pick any one) but they are generally in the minority and often not particularly liked by those that are not just in it for the money. I would hardly like to imagine what would happen if the police were to go out on strike for just a couple of hours even, you would all soon change your minds. Thank goodness I am no longer living over there - and for your information the police over here can strike, there was talk years ago and they were taking about bringing in the army...some good that would do half of them are criminals themselves. Though some would say that we are all a bunch of criminals over here.

65

Wanda,

USA 03/09/2007 03:53:04

Over here the police have what they call "Blue Flu" and they all call in sick. It is
something they feel they should do to get decent pay.
Over here they carry guns and they are in danger every moment. I childhood friend was a policeman and it is a hard job.
I respect the job they do and of course every job has a few bad eggs in the batch but on the whole they are hard working honest people who just want to Protect and Serve.
Give the Bobby a break and let him/her make a living not just an existance.

66

Wanda,

USA 03/09/2007 04:10:56

backshift: I hate that ya'll are having trouble but here in the states each City has their own PD and each has different pay scales. That means policemen are always shopping around for the District that pays more and that leaves alot of areas short handed.
I think they should all have the same pay scale but some Cities have more money.
Keep up the good work and be safe...over here they would say "watch your 6" watch your back.
You can always move here to the States and risk carrying a gun!!!

67

The Daleks,

03/09/2007 05:23:21

Who do we call when we're in trouble?

Not the police, if we have any sense.

Despite those on here who defend "the boys in black is the new blue" many people, in both the working and middle classes, have little, if any faith in "the service."

If the ultimate strike breakers are now seeking to go on strike themselves, they can expect little public sympathy.

They all knew exactly what they were getting into when they took the job on, so there's not much point in bleeting about it now. And at the end of the day,the pay and conditions are much, much better than this bunch of under-educated call centre refugees could get anywhere else.

By all means plods, go on strike. It will make excellent TV viewing when they send the army in to sort you out.

68

moring,

Melbourne Australia. 03/09/2007 06:35:26

As an ex copper I know just what the situation is like,
we, the public need the police more that the police need us, remember they lay thier lives down to save us at times and we expect them to do so.
A copper leaves home to start his/her shift expecting to see the day out,Who says they will, a copper might be dead in the line of duty.
All police deserve much more money if they are to do thier job properly give them 25% more not the insult of 2%

69

Horrible Cankers esq,

03/09/2007 08:20:54

All this anger?...no sense of community policing....no visible signs of cops doing their job.....not enough officers in touch with their community and too many intent on glory chasing. Kids grow up in areas of deprivation..hating the police and they dont know why...they dont even know what the police do until they turn up at the door again with a warrant for their father/brother.

70

FLUB,

Cowdenbeath 03/09/2007 09:10:26

Can anyone explain to me what the miners' strike of 1984-5 has to do with the current Police pay negotiations? Most of those currently serving would be schoolchildren at the time. I was on the picket lines as serving cop than, and it was not pleasant, and for the general information of all, those who claim they saw masked officers, removed numbers, and the usual ridiculous cliche, soldiers in Police uniform, are liars fantasising about some shadowy Eastern European state that the NUM seemed intent on delivering us into.

I was there starting duty at 3am every day for almost a year; I was there when the miners welfare clubs were opened and the pickets were fed full of drink to fire them up so that they would be inflamed into acting in ways they would not normally; I was there when some misguided students from a local university decided to join the picket lines to show solidarity, and we had to rescue the girls from being indecently assaulted, and reduced to tears by the obscene comments directed at them from the pickets; I watched the news in horror as striking miners in South Wales murdered a taxi driver taking strikebreakers to work. Is murder excusable in furtherance of a trade dispute?

In any case, is it realistic to expect that ex-miners now 23 years older will joyfully line up to assault striking policemen? Behave your self.

The current negotiations revolve around direct political interference by the Government into an apolitical service, which discharges its duties without fear, favour, malice or ill will, trying to maintain a system which has created modest, if regular pay structures for 27 years. The idiotic attempts to foment hatred based on events long finished does none of us any good. Everyone has a horror story.

Ask your selves, what do you want from the Police? Then go and tell the Chief Constables, and the politicians - remember they work for you. It's no good having a go at junior cops, they are not allowed to get

71

wisdom,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:30:48

#64.....Texas ?....part of Mexico invaded and occupied by a bunch of freebooting Gringo Freemasons in the early 19th century.Currently occupied and administered by the US.Famous for it's association with the Bush family and ex governor who ran up large electricity bills,reformed alcoholic and freemason,George W.Bush.

72

Billy,

Germany 03/09/2007 10:36:07

The first "Spokesman" to call for strike action
must be arrested immediatley for incitement to commit a criminal act. Let them strike who would notice the difference.?

73

wisdom,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 10:39:12

All those trusty loyal servants of the state are coming out of the woodwork,good,honest,reasonable men.....the police ARE servants of the state and VERY political....trying to persuade the Scots that they are not is a waste of time.True the miner's strike was a long time ago but let's all remember that we saw the police in their true colours then,as did my grandfather and other Scots in 1926...The tactics,uniforms and methods may change,they may even hand out sweeties to our children and smile at old ladies BUT their mission has not changed....to keep the multitudes in order and make Scotland a safe and stable place for respectable,hardworking capitalists to make their fortunes.

74

FLUB,

Cowdenbeath 03/09/2007 11:02:48

#76 Wisdom - any relation to Norman? At least he could make a living as a clown!

The tone of your posting suggests something quite preposterous. It IS the function of the Police to maintain order, and they are legally empowered to do so. The established system lends itself to free market capitalism, and due to the reluctance of the electorate to radically alter that system, that is the system that the Police police.

Is it your position that the Police should then refrain from their duty, in order to assist or facilitate the overthrow of the current political system by revolutionary (i.e non-democratic) means to accord with how you desire society to be structured?

75

wisdom,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 11:36:58

hello Flub.....It is amusing to note how folk from your stable always become SO personal....Hot under the collar are we?on the contrary those postings which slavishly and blindly support the status quo are the preposterous ones,what are they afraid of?.At least we agree that the mission of the police is to maintain order....but legally empowered? by whom?....the established free market system has been imposed....and the electorate are too busy working their butts off to support it and pay their outrageously high monthly bills to fatten the pockets of those benevolent ,honest,reasonable capitalists..They sould take some quality time off,stand back and assess the situation.They may then see it in a different light.The police for the most part come from the working classes but surrender their moral judgemnt to serve this system in return for an above average wage for men of with their level of education....Duty...careful there...many men have ended up in front of a judge and jury for carrying out their duty.The current system of government and banking was ushered in by a revolution...the GLORIOUS|ONE,I believe....DEMOCRACY ? a word which has been prostituted by every scoundrel seeking to justify his actions. we've had the DDR,now we have democracy in Iraq......we live in a Monarchy...the US ? you get the democracy you pay for....yes it is time for change...the time and manner of that change is outside the control of humble beings such as you and me.

76

PC McGarry#452,

999 Letsby Avenue 03/09/2007 11:51:27

51: Errrr..right then.

77

JG,

Fife 03/09/2007 12:58:57

#78 Wisdom

Ehh?

78

FLUB,

Cowdenbeath 03/09/2007 13:09:01

#78 So, like most revolutionaries, you secretly, or in your case, not so secretly, despise the working class and think they should stay at the level your proposed caste system would have them at and never rise above it?

Throughout my time as a cop, the government have tried to gentrify the Police, introduce means by which to increase pay based on 'performance' or other ridiculous notions, but this is the first time I've seen a proposal to base a Police officer's pay on his social class!

You're not from the official side of the PNB are you by any chance?

79

Joe90,

Erehwon 03/09/2007 14:24:13

Mr 'Wisdom'
You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder concerning the police. One or more of them must have hurt you really badly for you to be so vitriolic. So all policeman are ill educated, lower class layabouts who are overpaid for what they do? My son was fortunate to be educated in a well known public school to a reasonable standard and joined the police to serve his community - not a job I would have wished for him but it is his choice. He has undergone extensive training at Tulliallen and needs to have a pretty good grasp of current law. What about you? There is a great deal of public spiritedness and integrity in the lower ranks of the Scottish police forces which is exploited by the present government. Few policemen want to strike and such action would be unnecessary if the government gave, at least, pay rises in line with inflation. Woudn't it be nice if we could all get pay or pension rises in line with those MPs vote for themselves!!
Incidentally, I do not believe that Suck McCrunchie's police woman friend 'earned' £30000 in overtime. More likely that that was her all inclusive salary, especially if she simply sits around all day!! I wonder about the gender of 'Suck' - he/she seems to have only female police friends. What about family men, doing a dangerous job and trying to pay today's exorbitant mortgages AND bring up a family?

80

wisdom,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 18:52:52

~81....hello Flub,there you go again!who is the revolutionary?...not me...I said nothing about despising the working class or maintaining any caste system...or basing pay on social class,it is a fact however that most policemen could not find comparable employment or pay outside the police force....the educational requirements are minimal yet the pay surpasses that of lots of graduates teachers,nurses and university staff who are better qualified academically...we live in a society where policemen receive better pay and benefits than teachers!The police are rewarded so generously because they play a key role in maintaining the status quo and making society a safe and stable place for investors.I have friends who are serving and former policemen and I listen carefully to their loose tongues...marriage ,children,mortgage,family becoming accustomed to the benefits,lodge membership...even if the individual wants out he has too much to lose...put your conscience and morals on the back burner do the job and take the pay.As a former policemen you could no enlarge on this.

81

wisdom,

Edinburgh 03/09/2007 19:10:42

#82...Hello Joe...I can't recall any policeman hurting me personally.But then I am not the sensitive,emotional or thin skinned type.Neither do I recall saying that all policemen were ill educated lower class layabouts....Like your son I also had the dubious benefits of a public school education and as for your question WHAT ABOUT YOU?..I am a graduate in business studies who chose to take up soldiering,not out of any sense of duty but because I enjoyed the job.....I will agree with you that there is a great deal of public spiritedness among the lower ranks of the police force in Scotland and there are many fine individuals in their ranks...and as you say it is exploited by the state...it would be refreshing to see the police force 'wake up' and instead of being used as instruments of the state make common cause with the communities around them...then we would all live in a much better society

82

Tartan 12,

Victoria 03/09/2007 22:26:32

I am writing from the Antipodes. Our police force in Victoria is also arguing for a pay increase. I was under the impression that the general public here found lots of fault with the rank and file of our police force, however if the posted comment here is anything to go on then Vic Police have very little ill comment to deal with.

Of course we don't have the huge population to deal with, as do your Police, but the tyranny of distance is something we need to deal with. (Victoria being the smallest mainland state in Australia, but the whole of the UK could be fitted within our borders with some room left over.) Our police deal with the general public in a respectful and public spirited manner as do most of yours, however you must be aware that the Police no matter in Australia or Scotland or back of beyond are employed by the state and are only instruments of the state legistlature, and when they speak the members have to jump. If you have a problem with the police look beyond the uniform see the person under that does he/she really want to do this or that or are they simply following orders.

If the police member doesn't do as order like a soldier the commander doesn't take too kindly to insubordination, so do you suggest that the whole of the rank and file "use their feet and get out" or do they try to change things from within using the only tools they have available.

The Police in any country are open to temptation and most are disciplined enough to follow the dictates of their morals or do they succumb to the temptation of taking what they can, mostly no. And those who do succumb are soon found out and weeded out. The Police do a dirty job, cleaning up your mess, keeping the roads clear, attending burglaries, road accidents, picking up your children after they have gone astray; the Police are necessary in any society because human nature is what it is, if we pay them commensurate with the work which we expect them to complete,


 

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