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Is the Union still relevant?

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Published Date: 21 January 2007
TWO senior Scottish politicians have revealed how their parties plan to fight on the key battlegrounds that will decide this May's Scottish Parliament elections.
Speaking at Scotland on Sunday's debate on the future of the Union on Friday night, the SNP's Holyrood leader, Nicola Sturgeon, and former Labour minister Wendy Alexander clashed over the economy, national identity and the position of Scotland in the
world.

Alexander showed how Labour will deal with the problematic issue of Iraq by arguing that whatever voters think of Britain's policy in the Middle East, they should not forget the 300 years that Scotland and England have stood together to defeat greater enemies, such as the Nazis.

Meanwhile, the Nationalists plan to challenge Labour on the question of why the Scottish economy is lagging behind other parts of the UK and will argue that an independent Scotland would be free to make its own foreign policy and not be dragged into "illegal foreign wars".

In front of an audience of 100 Scotland on Sunday readers, Sturgeon and Alexander began the run-up to what is likely to be Scotland's most crucial election in a generation by clashing over whether the 300-year-old Union has run its course.

For Alexander, it was a question of, even if the current settlement was "broken", there might be ways to fix it other than separation. She argued that those who wanted more powers for the Scottish Parliament could easily argue for them to be granted without breaking up the Union.

She said: "Devolution is a process. So if you favour more powers, that is fine - you can still be a committed Unionist. And if the last decade teaches us anything, it is that you do not need to tear up the Union to reform it."

In a plea which many will see as admitting the unpopularity of Tony Blair's policy towards Iraq, Alexander said: "We heard about foreign policy. It is understandable, given the last three years, to say that we don't like the foreign policy. But that is not the same as saying that [national] identity is the answer to the challenges."

She added that with Scotland needing to take its place in tackling the big problems of the world, such as globalisation, the environment and international security, Scots should not divert their energies into pondering their own constitutional future.

Turning to the SNP, Alexander said the Nationalists needed to choose which small, independent country it wanted to emulate. The SNP has often cited the success of countries such as Norway and Ireland, which have radically different social and taxation policies.

Alexander said: "Norway has high taxes; in Ireland you pay €40 when you go to see a doctor. It's Swedish public services or low Irish taxes, because you can't choose both."

For Nicola Sturgeon, the issue was one of giving Scotland the flexibility to take the lead in its own way.

She said: "The real issue is how we can use the powers of independence to grow the economy. Scotland's economic growth rate over the last 25 years has lagged behind the UK and been amongst the lowest in the European Union. With independence, we can choose policies that will make our economy more competitive and grow faster. Without independence, our hands are tied."

Sturgeon was challenged by the audience on how the SNP expected to make up the shortfall in the nation's electricity supplies if it was committed to a non-nuclear future. She replied that she hoped to make Scotland a world centre for renewable energy.

Her party was also challenged on what the point of independence would be if many powers remained with the EU, how Scotland could manage its currency, and the status of the monarchy.

Sturgeon answered that in an independent Scotland, the Queen would remain the head of state until such a time as the people voted otherwise in a referendum. She added that her own personal preference would be for an elected head of state, but that an independent Scotland would have to deal with a number of other issues first.

In a sly aside at the end of the debate, Alexander said the prospect of an elected head of state might be one of the plus points of an independent Scotland.

Meanwhile, Alexander was challenged over the Iraq war, with one questioner claiming the UK's foreign policy had made him "ashamed to be British". While the SNP has so far been reluctant to use anti-war sentiment as a campaign tool, public reaction to comments about Iraq made it clear that many Scottish voters are deeply unhappy about UK policy in the Middle East and believe it has weakened the argument for the Union. Comments by both Sturgeon and questioners, which criticised the invasion and continuing occupation, were greeted with warm applause.

The two politicians were also asked whether the Union had made Scotland a safer or a more dangerous place, another clear reference to the situation in the Middle East.

Sturgeon was wary about being seen to imply that pulling out of the UK might mean that terrorists would vent their anger on England alone, rather than the whole of the UK, instead saying that Scotland would decide its own foreign policy. Alexander insisted Scotland was safer and more secure as part of one of the most important countries in the world.

Alexander was quizzed on why Labour objected so strongly to the idea of a referendum on Scotland's constitutional future. She retorted that Scots had - by not voting for the SNP - endorsed the Union on many occasions.

One questioner, Victoria Freeland, asked Alexander why, if the Scots were so enthusiastic about the Union, the 300th anniversary was not being celebrated more. She replied that one of the features of being Scottish was the reticence to make too much of such occasions.

At the end of the debate, just under two-thirds of those present said they wanted to end the Union. The rest - with the exception of three don't knows - chose the status quo.



Page 1 of 1

 
1

williamx,

delta 21/01/2007 00:36:05

The English will dump you once the oil runs out.

2

Bill, Dunblane,

21/01/2007 00:46:55

Murdo - see you've changed the story a bit, changed the question on the poll - but......

It's still hiding the truth!

At the debate the vote was:

80% against the union

20% for the status quo

Not exactly 'just under two-thirds of those present said they wanted to end the Union. The rest - with the exception of three don't knows - chose the status quo'

Why, even when challenged yesterday to tell the truth, do you insist on your misleading, and simply untrue, description of the vote at the debate?

Shame on you! Some things haven't changed since 1707 - and you KNOW what I mean!

3

northerner,

England 21/01/2007 01:47:31

Sorry to upset you Bill, but the poll went round some English nationalists and we all voted FOR an Independent Scotlandm. It has more support in England, so we were just helping you out.

Anytime.

4

SC,

Dundee 21/01/2007 02:02:15

1, williamx,

You are absolutely right. Will the daft unionists like Alexender be honest for a second and admit there are none of their kind in England, outwith the parliamentary Conservative Party?

The English, quite rightly, look after their own national interest. This is not be confused with their general apathy (as in Scotland) about what their elected officials get up to (the EU, the Barnett Bribe etc).

But when the issue is laid bare, they will choose the best for England. At the moment, that involves keeping Scotland in - but if our poor economic performance continues, and the oil runs out, that will surely, some time, Scotland will be out.

We either go now, with a fair wind and 30+ years of oil, or we wait 50 years and get booted out with a population of 4.5m to England's 60m.

Unionists, wake up now and smell the coffee!

5

Frodo the Scot,

calton creek WEST 21/01/2007 02:34:04

Scotland,wales and northern Ireland are the modern worlds only CAPTURED countries left. Even the Mighty USSR broke back into its numerous sovereignties This coming Mays election will after 300 years give Scots the choice of being englands welfare recipient or the
new kid on the world scene. However this will take people with HUGE KAHONIES.
Are you up to it SCOTLAND/SCOTS YOUR damn right we are.

6

Bill, Dunblane,

21/01/2007 02:40:54

3 - Northerner

Upset me not a bit - very grateful for your support - if we can help you out with the same problems, let us know.

7

ric the taxi driver,

Edinburgh 21/01/2007 02:46:25

Defend the union because change is all so frightening, but without change will Scotland be a dead duck in the water?

Is it just me or does anyone else think that being Scottish and living in Edinburgh is starting to be quite interesting!

8

Frodo the Scot,

calton creek WEST 21/01/2007 02:47:31

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

9

Freeman Stand,

Wishaw 21/01/2007 02:50:50

If devolution is a "process", Wendy - what's the final product? If the process is for the Scottish Parliament to keep accruing powers (eg fiscal autonomy, control of broadcasting, immigration) the inevitable end result is what we would recognise as independence.

10

D.L.Edgcumbe,

Toronto 21/01/2007 02:56:07

The question of relevence only arises from the politicians such as Blair & Brown and those Scots who always are prepared to sell out as they were 300 years ago and such as the Barclays are now

11

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

21/01/2007 03:15:43

Quote: Is the Union still relevant........like breast implants on a bull :)

12

Frodo the Scot,

calton creek WEST 21/01/2007 06:59:25

Does anyone remember how our union partners used to give you ONLY 19 and sixpence for a scottish pound note?

13

bill, england,

21/01/2007 08:12:29

I would like an assurance that an independent Scotland would take Blair, Brown, Reid, Darling etc back to its bosom.

Promise that and you will have the vote of most Englishmen.

14

Alamo,

Glasgow 21/01/2007 08:29:54

I really can't understand why anyone in Scotland wishes to be associated with a nation which treats us as an "add-on" of mighty England. The English have NEVER accepted the "Union", preferring to see it as a take-over.
We have all had the experience of our bank-notes being questioned when we visit England. When a Scot with a broad accent is on NATIONAL UK tv, often there are sub-titles put on the screen. I can't understand the broad Liverpool accent, but I have yet to see sub-titles put on the screen.
On national ( that is UK ) news, the "North-East" is not as you would expect the North East of the UK, but the North-east of ENGLAND.
A drunk is needed on a tv drama set in England, and of course he has to be a Scot, implying therefore that there are no drunks in England.
And as for the English not liking the fact that Scots MP's can vote in English only matters at Westminster, what the hell have English MP's been doing since 1707 ? Voting on Scottish only issues!!Did the English not ban the wearing of tartan and the playing of bagpipes after our defeat at Culloden in 1745 ? Did English MP's not vote in the trial of the Poll Tax in Scotland only ?
The English dish it out, but they don't like it when somebody does the same thing back to them.

I ask you again...do we wish to be associated with a country which treats us like this ?

15

eric,

21/01/2007 08:50:15

Most of my family Live In England ,There is a Push for an Early Election down south ,The English are More Determined To Put the boot into Scotland ,They will Vote Tory,isnt that a Scary thought Scotland.They actually see scots unionists as Scots who want to stay scroungers out with the begging bowl ,can i have some more,The unionists make me feel ashamed to be a scot.

16

bill, england,

21/01/2007 09:01:58

14. Alamo, Glasgow

Living in the North of England, we don't like to be an add-on of the South. The dichotomy is as great between N and S England, and possibly greater, than that between Scotland and England.

I certainly feel more at home amongst the Scots than amongst the honeyed tones of the Home Counties set.

As far as accents go, although I am from the North Riding (now done away with by Southerners - partially renamed North Yorkshire) I went to school in the North East and my services as a translator of extreme Geordie are in demand.

Unlike us, you have a way out now. Can we apply to join you?

17

murren59,

Isle of Arran 21/01/2007 09:16:57

#16 Yes Bill, please join us. We'll set the border at Hadrian's Wall where it should be, just make sure that you are on the good guys side of the Wall.

18

Meta,

21/01/2007 09:30:35

#9, Freeman Stand. Wendy is probably aware of where the devolution process will end. She just doesn't want it butting in on her self-interested political career.

19

bill, england,

21/01/2007 09:40:58

17. murren59, Isle of Arran

I tried to sail round Arran once and ended up spending the night at Campbeltown - hope to do better nexy time!

Hadrian was too ambitious, our Brigantes wiped out an entire Roman Legion on the North Yorkshire Moors.

I suggest a line from the Humber to the Mersey, going south to include the Peak District; most of the land south of that will be underwater soon by all acounts.

20

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 21/01/2007 10:04:17

#5 Frodo the Scot

Arrant nonsense!

Try telling the indigenous populations in North America, South America, Australia, etc., that ‘Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the modern world’s only ‘captured’ countries left’.

Scots have had the power to vote themselves out the Union but have consistently refused to do so. Indeed, aside from a single seat held in 1945 for one term and Winnie Ewing’s by-election victory in 1967, the SNP failed to register electoral success until the 1970s. Are we supposed to believe that generations of Scots were completely thick? Or that they were intimidated into submission? Perhaps they were far more perceptive than the majority of posters on this thread and saw great benefits arising from the Union, the most successful of its kind in history.

All other independence/separatist movements I’m aware of – such as Kurds in Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey, the Quebec French, Tamils in north-east Sri Lanka, Catalonians, Basques, etc. – have much stronger justifications for their causes based on history and language than Scotland has. As George Orwell once remarked, a foreigner visiting Britain would be hard pushed to distinguish between Scotland, Wales and England – and there is even less of a difference now than 50 years ago. Where exactly is the cultural dimension to demands for Scottish independence?

In the absence of the cultural aspect, what we are presented with by nationalists are ‘the grass is always greener’ economic arguments of the kind spouted by political charlatans through the ages. Sadly, this is backed up with rhetoric intended to appeal to the red top tabloid-reading football fan. Crucial issues such as currency considerations and the massive costs and repercussions which would be involved in restructuring public sector administration are simply brushed aside. It is apparently far more important to exploit a silly mistake by Gordon Brown regarding which country he would support in the 2018 Wor

21

Royster,

21/01/2007 10:42:50

#20. Well said Ally. I would also just like counter the nationalist argument that the much larger England dominates Scotland. That would only be so if England voted the same way and in the opposite way to Scotland. Much of England habitually votes the same way as the Scots and the cultural difference between the north of England and Scotland is very small (see Bill's posts above). The union gives Scotland a higher profile, political stability and a large varied economy to support its public spending and infrastructure.

22

Chaplin,

21/01/2007 10:58:20

#20 excellant comment,

23

Scaramouche,

21/01/2007 11:09:30

Is the Union still relevant?

In a word ........... no!

24

Whereswally?,

Edinburgh 21/01/2007 11:36:05

Ally - well-argued sane stuff.

But, like so many people you mention the quality of our politicians. Why not have a go yourself - stand for election... and I'm not being ironic.

If more informed committed people like you got into politics we'd have fewer egotists, ideologists and soap-dodging thickies to worry about...

25

Marian,

2007 Broonmcflannel Mews, Middenborough, NL00T 21/01/2007 11:56:43

What a week it has been for knocking Scots aspirations to stand on their own two feet! This week we have been told that we are too poor to afford independence (Wendy Alexander), too uneducated (Shadow Chancellor George Osborne) and not worth considering as sportspersons (Gordon Brown) - and there are still over three months to browbeat us into submission before the Scots Elections in May!

Realistically its highly unlikely that Scotlandshire will elect an SNP Government in 2007 let alone ever get a referendum on separation/independence from the UK. Just wait and see as the UK political establishment pull out all the stops and dirty tricks between now and May to con the/their drone masses once again to vote Labour back into power - you aint seen nothing yet!

26

Alec in Chicago,

21/01/2007 12:00:17

#5 Frodo the Scot

I believe that's spelled cojones.

27

BenDover,

21/01/2007 12:08:10

Does anyone else find Wendy Alexander a bit creepy?

28

Callum,

Edinburgh 21/01/2007 12:16:02

If Scotland still wants to be part of England. You must support England World Cup. If We do not want independence we can't bleam the English.

Scottish People have a great opportunity to take the nation to independence. Are you going to let us down again?

Vote SNP

29

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2007 12:54:39

#20. Ally Scott
I think I must disagree with you Ally, although hats off for at least making a coherent argument in favour of the Union.

To answer your objections, in my view, we only got the vote in 1918, 211 years after the formation of the Union.

Within 10 years the National Party of Scotland was formed followed by the Scottish Party.

In 1935 these merged to become the SNP, and ten years after that they won their first Parliamentary seat, Winnie Ewing had her first success in Hamilton in 1967.

Issues that the early independence movement had to contend with were the formation of the Labour Party and the massive political upheaval of two world wars and the propaganda which accompanied them.

The strength of feeling for independence can be gauged from the fact that the movement has grown in popularity through it all.

I believe that any general election is usually decided by by the 'floating' voter.

Most of us vote for the first political party we are introduced to, like our football team, usually by our parents or friends.

To 'support' any other 'team' is to betray your peer group.

eg How often have the electorate of North Lanarkshire checked to see if that really was a chimpanzee, before casting their vote for the one in the red rosette?

Call them thick, or loyal, them's the facts of political life here.

Growth in any political movement is dictated by how long it takes to win over floating voters, and to keep them.

The Liberals first faded into the background with the emergence of the Labour Party.

In Scotland the Tories were dealt a near mortal blow by reaction to Thatcherism, allowing the Liberals, in some measure, to recover here, but the SNP have taken this as their cue to step into the political spotlight as the main opposition to Labour.

The significance of the present situation is that with the unpopularity of 'New' Labour, particularly south of the border, and the dis

30

Derick fae Yell,

21/01/2007 13:13:59

27 "Does anyone else find Wendy Alexander a bit creepy?"

YUP but no as creepy as her peerie bridder! 'the slithy toves that gyre and gimball in the wabe'

Thinks along Jabberwocky lines:
Annabel Goldie - a mimsy Jubjub bird?

Brian Wilson - "The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!"

31

SC,

21/01/2007 13:14:43

Ally (20),

This is indeed one of the more impressive unionist contributions I have witnessed on the Scotsmans threads. But I'm afraid you are deluding yourself to believe there is any great value in a union between two countries, no matter how similar, who do not share the same identities and always put their own 'region' first.

You say that the economic arguments can be reduced to 'the grass is always greener'. You should not dismiss the arguments so easily. We are constantly told by the Labour party - but interestingly not by David Cameron anymore - that we are too poor to be independent; a subsidised state dependent on the English. However, as far as I am aware, all other countries are able to live within our means. So if you believe the Labour Party, the Union has hobbled the Scottish economy like no other. Indeed, the grass is likely to be very much greener without the debilitating effect on the economy of centralised rule from another country.

You call for an improvement on the quality of civic life, and I commend you on this. However, when I see our best politicians (it pains me to say that about any socialist, but I'm also thinking of the likes of Liam Fox, as well as Labour Grandees) heading south to further their careers, gain more power and generally put themselves first over their country, no wonder the quality of what's left is at Jack McConnel's level!

Unlike the other territories you mention, I do not believe Scotland suffers from an injustice. We are not enslaved - save for by our own insecurity - and can leave anytime we vote for it. However, this does not mean we should not stand on our two feet. It will be better for individuals, it will be better for civic life and it will be better for the Scottish Nation.

What most unionists do not admit, is that their unionism is unique to Scotland and is not shared at all in England. The status quo is not an option. Either we completely assimilate in the UK and become de fact

32

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2007 13:23:22

"Is the Union still relevant?"

NO

33

Billy,

Germany 21/01/2007 13:23:33

You are right livilion, even labour supporting zombies are beginning to come out of their trance like states. The labour party they voted for , on automatic pilot, no longer exists. They face the wrath of an in-coming Conservative party that will
have zero tolerance for a country that wears it's hatred for them as a badge of honour. We are heading for independence wether we like it or not.

Without their Scottish arse lickers, Labour will be irrelevant, south of the border after the next election. England has had it's moneys worth out of Scotland, and the tories will be in no mood to address the balance.

34

Royster,

21/01/2007 13:25:54

#33. SC Why do you think that being in the UK makes you 'de facto English', whatever that means?

35

BenDover,

21/01/2007 13:34:01

Wee Wendy's also a right munter, is her husband blind?

36

Derick fae Yell,

21/01/2007 13:58:45

BenDover, that was uncalled for.
Actually I think her rather nice looking - just four hunder percent politically misguided

37

BenDover,

21/01/2007 14:18:36

39,I have seen her in the flesh, she's got a face like a melted wellie and the figure of a wheelie bin.

You must be one horny deviant if you think she's attractive ;)

38

Gordon, Canonmills,

Scotland 21/01/2007 14:22:54

Ally Scott - #20
"Indeed, aside from a single seat held in 1945 for one term and Winnie Ewing’s by-election victory in 1967, the SNP failed to register electoral success until the 1970s."

This has been due to:

a) the first-past-the post electoral system, which can give parties with evenly-spread support fewer seats than parties with strong local support in a few constituencies. e.g. in the 80s the SNP got 5% of the Scottish MPs at Westminster with 30% of the vote.

b) the "being-in-bed-with-an-elephant syndrome" which means Scottish representatives will always be in a minority in London.

The game's a bogey!

You ask:

"Are we supposed to believe that generations of Scots were completely thick."

No.

That's why it's well past time for us to run our own country!

39

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2007 14:24:41

#27. BenDover: No, she all talk, but her brother the Scotland Secutry talks the biggist load of guff I have ever heard. So maybe she just trying to protect her brother fom the Scot Nats.

40

SC,

Dundee 21/01/2007 14:27:29

36, try explaining where you come from when abroad to find out what de facto English means!

Only places I have found that have even a basic understanding of the difference between Britain and England is in France, the US and Japan!

Everyone can always tell the difference between the English and the Irish, despite their cultural similarities!

41

Warfrat73,

21/01/2007 14:32:54

The fact of the matter (and this isn't an argument for Union) is that even with a successful vote for independence Scotland would be in no way free of England. Hundreds of years of hegemony, ideological reinforcement of second class status, financial and institutional support of the infrastructure and the enormous weight of influence that the English economy carries would cast a very long shadow indeed.

42

James,

Dundee 21/01/2007 15:43:15

#44 A shadow that I may add still lingers over Ireland.

What I have noticed is that a lot of Uk based firms (Including the Bank of Scotland) have a large prsence o'er the water.

Uk companies will still use the 'similarities' to do business in Alba to!

43

Duncan,

Scotland without onions and bigots 21/01/2007 16:05:47

The onion is as relevant as an ashtray on a Harley Davidson.
It is interesting now to watch and read the chattering classes speaking of when we gain independence and not if!
A couple of years back it was a different story. The juggernaut of freedom appears to have gathered energy and the result is inevitable.
Even the sneering Paxman sees it as inevitable. His fit of pique when he challenged Alex Salmond on the onion debate about,"and what will you do when England decide to keep North Sea Oil," sums up his mentality.
England are not that daft.

Is the onion relevant?

NO. IT IS TIME.

44

SC,

21/01/2007 16:07:09

44, & 45,

...and?!?!

It is not the English we are trying to escape from, just a centralising British State. The English are more than welcome to do business!!

Independence is not isolation, it is about democratic control of your own government.

45

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 21/01/2007 16:34:20

A tale of the future

I was the year 2107, and old man in a town in the south of England, was seated by the fire talking with his grandson about history.

'And was there really another country up there in Northern England, Grandpa, where we have our country cottage and keep the nuclear plants and the sheep.

'Aye' that's true son. for more than a thousand years!

'And what was this country called and who lived there?'

'Well the country was called Scotland and naturally enough the people who lived there were called the Scots.'

'And what where they like Grandpa?

'On the whole they were good people. Sometimes they drank too much of something they called whiskey...the water of life I think it meant, and they were rumoured to be a bit too careful with their money. But they very creative and adventurous people...they invented the telephone you see on the desk there...oh and the television, you're so fond of and thon fax machine in my office. They invented the road surface outside the house son and the radar they use at airprts to let the planes land safely. Once steam powered trains ran on the railways...and a Scotsman invented that too. They were highly skilled in engineering and built bridges, railways and roads throughout the world. They were resposible for huge advantages in medical science, the understanding of economics and so many other things that have helped mankind to progress.'

'And what happened to them Grandpa and where did they go?'

'Well. they just sort of disappeared and became absorbed within many societies and countries of the world although they certainly have left their mark!... a bit like the ancient Romans I think'.

'And why was that Grandpa/.

'That's the funny thing, you see...they just stopped believing in themselves. Never let that happen to you!'

46

W Smith,

Middle East 21/01/2007 16:36:15

Maybe there should be a second question, loosely base on the first, and it should read, "IS THE UNION STILL RELEVANT TO FOREIGN INVESTORS AND FOREIGN COMPANIES?"

Microsoft, Google, and Dell chose to move a large part of their business to Ireland. They have contributed to Ireland's new found wealth.

So which reason best explains their decision to be based in Ireland rather than Scotland or England?

a) Ireland has better weather.
b) In Ireland the 'craic' is better.
c) Ireland has better scenery.
d) Irish politicians have, on average, higher IQ's.
e) The Irish government isn't dominated by Irish Unionists.
f) Ireland's corporation tax at 12.5% is less than half of Scotland and England's at 30%.

The answer is f) and I think more companies are going to leave the UK for countries that have more welcoming and more ambitious governments. More job losses are on their way - probably the car industry in England will take another hit.

LG PHilips and Puegoet have pulled out of England. Lexmarx and NCR have left Scotland. That suggests that the union has become totally irrelevant in some respects.

India and China are going to continue to compete with a large pool of educated, very smart workers who work for relatively low salaries. Estonia and Hungary are going to continue to bid for jobs and investment using the leverage that comes with lower tax regimes.

The point is that the unionists and the nationalists in Scotland had better get their skates on and try to stay relevent to what is going on in the world.

47

Crashnyploshnit,

Moscow 21/01/2007 16:44:32

To all those who want independence go right ahead no one likes you winging Scots anyway. Oh by the way I am a Scots too except I winge about the Labour party, the costs of the Scottish parliament (shambles that it is), stealth taxex, etx, etc. Am I doing anything about it, too right I am leaving the lot of you and emigrating to Canada.

48

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2007 17:02:10

#50. Crashnyploshnit: What to lisen to #48. Graham Simpson, read you a bed time story?

49

Duncan,

Scotland with oil in credit :) 21/01/2007 17:12:20

50 Have a nice trip. You will find plenty to greet about in Canada. Meanwhile:

SCOTS HAVE defied their reputation for being a dour bunch by coming out top in a UK optimism index.

The psychological study, commissioned to mark tomorrow as the most depressing day of the year, showed Scots are, in fact, the most positive in the UK about the future.

Scots' surprisingly cheery approach to life saw them placed ahead of the Irish, who came second, and the Welsh, languishing in ninth position. Bottom of the pile were inhabitants of the West Midlands.

continued...

The Freestyle Happiness Index, commissioned by Standard Life Bank, found that some 85% of Brits are optimistic about the year ahead. It also found that, in order to maintain this optimism, work has become less of a focus for 2007, with people choosing instead to concentrate on spending more time with their friends and family.

The Scottish Executive expressed its delight at the findings. A spokesperson referred to it as "great news", adding: "This proves, as we continually say, that Scotland is a great place to live, work and visit."

The results come ahead of the fourth Monday in January, officially recognised as the worst day of the year following research carried out in 2005. Academic Clive Arnall named the date after devising a tongue-in-cheek formula which considered factors such as post-Christmas debt, poor weather and failed new year's resolutions.

Standard Life Bank also compiled a happiness mantra for the coming year, listing the top 10 ways to become a happier person. The top tactic was to take up a new hobby, while others ranged from simply having more fun at work to getting married and clearing debts.

Comedian Des Clarke pointed to our relationship with the national football team as a case in point of Scotland's optimism. He said: "Year after year we come back and support them. You only have to look back to 1978 and Ally McLe

50

robert SHIVAGO,

livingston 21/01/2007 17:58:26

THE UNION IS DEAD.HELPED AND POSIONED BY A CORRUPT LABOUR PARTY.WE NEED A NEW LIGHT AND DIRECTION ONLY TO BE GAINED BY VOTING SNP.WE IN SCOTLAND CAN GO IT ALONE.

51

Minnie,

21/01/2007 18:18:59

"One questioner, Victoria Freeland, asked Alexander why, if the Scots were so enthusiastic about the Union, the 300th anniversary was not being celebrated more. She replied that one of the features of being Scottish was the reticence to make too much of such occasions"

Another more correct feature of being Scottish is an intense hatred of patronising Wendy Alexander type people. Is that the best answer she could come up with lol

52

Robbie,

NZ aka OZ's bst mate 21/01/2007 18:36:39

3. northerner, England
“English nationalists….all voted FOR an Independent Scotland - …….we were just helping you out.”
6. Bill, Dunblane
“ 3 - Northerner - very grateful for your support - if we can help you out with the same problems, let us know.”

Peace, love and cooperation. These two nationalists show what the future holds. Better relations between the nations of the EX UK. Everyone will get on so much better together like OZ and NZ (except in sport).

53

Robbie,

NZ aka OZ's bst mate 21/01/2007 18:42:14

49. W Smith
Not just Corporate Welfare and slave wages. There are alternatives and better ways.

54

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 21/01/2007 18:52:05

#30 aberjames, #31 livilion, #33 SC, #41 Gordon, Cannonmills


First of all, I have never suffered from the ‘inferiority complex’ frequently attributed to Scottish Unionists. Why should I? Winston Churchill once remarked that with the arguable exception of the Ancient Greeks no small country did more for the world.

I also have no doubt that Scots are perfectly capable – in theory – of controlling their own affairs. It is the practice I’m concerned about. Despite the massive vote in favour of devolution, sceptics like myself have witnessed one embarrassing fiasco after another and feel thoroughly justified in having voted against it. Engineers know that if the pilot plant or the prototype is a failure, you scrap the project or, at least, go back to the drawing board. It must be borne in mind that an independent Scotland would face massively tougher choices than those encountered at Holyrood.

The reason why I specifically mentioned the ‘cultural’ side of nationalism was because I believe that this should be a primary factor in wanting independence and not a secondary one. Any staunch nationalist should be prepared to advocate independence regardless of whether national income may decline. I realise, of course, that this may not be practical politics from a SNP perspective, but it is a worthwhile point nonetheless. In place of the left-right split which exists in most countries, politics in Scotland has been defined by a status quo (plus devolution)-independence divide for the past 20 years or so. Every opposition party guarantees that the economy will be stronger once it’s been elected and the SNP is now occupying that position.

55

Ally Scott,

Glasgow 21/01/2007 18:54:04

#30 aberjames, #31 livilion, #33 SC, #41 Gordon, Cannonmills

(continued)

What will happen to the political structure following independence? Will the SNP disband? In theory, of course, by why would career politicians wish to end their careers following their ultimate triumph? Would there be a radical re-alignment of the political parties or would Scottish Labour (with only 20,000 members, mind) still dominate the landscape? Would a split develop overnight between the economically-powerful Edinburgh and the state-dependent west? Would an independent Scotland seek to strengthen our technological base or would resources be ploughed into areas of the public sector like social work? In Labour’s defence, many dependent on the state for their livelihood would naturally be worried. But can a mindset which views Labour as the ‘establishment’ and has done for decades – this notion prevailing throughout the education system and the media – really change? Could an independent Scotland really cope with the euro and relatively low interest rates, or would this imply wealth flowing towards England? And if we didn’t change to the euro and stuck with sterling instead, would this not be an admission that we could never be truly independent of our much larger neighbour? Would we still take BBC and ITV, or would an independent government set up a SBC?

These and similar questions are never really addressed. The truth of the matter is that independence would only be successful if a sufficient number of Scots ensured that it would be. And that’s precisely where I have grave doubts. No longer could Maggie Thatcher or the English be blamed for all our misfortunes. The buck would very much stop with us.

A week or so ago, we had the bizarre spectacle of First Minister Jack McConnell appearing on Blue Peter, while much of the BBC’s flagship political programme, Scottish Newsnight, was devoted to a discussion of whether the Scottish football manager was right to res

56

fiferjohn,

benbecula 21/01/2007 19:14:35

the union is dead as long as westminister keeps raping Scotland of all her resources and gives hand outs back and tells her she is lucky to be getting them as she is to poor and stupid to look after hershelf.

57

ric the taxi driver,

Edinburgh 21/01/2007 19:53:39

hi ally, you will only find answers to your question if you take the plunge. we are all having to jump in eventually. its futile to try and hold back the tide of change until you get an assurance; it will happen eventually. We will be letting down future generations if we do not jump before we are all pushed; for instance when the economy takes a nose dive and we become seen as an even bigger liability and also when all the family silver has gone

58

strathystag,

Dundee 21/01/2007 20:14:39

I think this UK government press release gives a pretty clear picture of how important Scotland is to the economy - for now at least.

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/content/detail.asp?ReleaseID=245255...

59

ric the taxi driver,

Edinburgh 21/01/2007 20:36:51

Just another thought to ponder, Tony Blair is looking for a legacy, could it be his brilliant idea to set up a half way house "Devolution" that was always going to get rid of those Bloody ungrateful, winging, Scots after they pay us back with their OIL, well ours really! after all how could they have managed to exploit their resource's on their own. He might just have a chance here, as people are quite willing to get the wool (pun intended) pulled over their eyes.

60

Bonnie Laddie,

21/01/2007 21:11:48

Who needs a union - if you want to communicate with anyone from another country or your own - simply switch own yer computer waffle a load of thoughts and someone from another country or next door will waffle a lot of thoughts back!

Countries are becoming nigh on unnecissary - they only create conflict - divisions - hatreds and problems - but lets start making the world better by getting an independent Scotland

61

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 21/01/2007 21:15:01

Ally Scott Glasgow nbr 59...there is much truth in what you say and also many contradictions. if you do not suffer from 'an inferiority complex..and why should you anyway?..why do you say on the one hand that that you have no doubts about Scottish capability (in theory) whatever that means...and then go on to say that it is their practice that worries you. What embarassing fiascos have you witnessed? share them with us please and let us judge the merits.

Your analogy of an engineer abandoning the project that is flawed and going back to the drawing board, is perfect. That is why we are trying to negate the Act of Union...it simply doesn't work! Of course governing ourselves will be a lot tougher than playing with the 'Mickey Mouse' parliament that has grudgingly been 'given' us to keep us quiet.

You ask some good questions....
I am sure that most of us who want independence are prepared for the probability of some rough rides as we refashion our infrastructure, constitution and international relationships and yes if we wish, we can adopt the Euro or indeed any currency policy that suits us.
Yes...the wish for independence for most of us springs from a deep feeling of being Scottish (or as you call it 'cultural')...and free to make our own choices. This does not mean that we abandon the responsibility of ensuring that the necessary economics and social foundations are in place to built our restored country. Alex Salmond is correct to examine and reassure voters of these principles.

Will the SNP 'disband' after independence. More than likely! The new found enthusiasm and vitality will give birth to many new ideas and directions on how to govern our country and surely these will translate into competing political parties.

In addition to the SNP's website there are numerous other very important sources of information that allow truthfull examination of the challenges that will accompany independence.The Saltire Society website is

62

Robbie,

NZ 21/01/2007 21:29:10

59. Ally Scott, Glasgow
“ What will happen……..”
Maybe Ally if entrepreneurs had listened to all their doubters and hesitated because of fears of ‘what might happen..’ an awful lot of huge and successful enterprise would never have got off the ground.
Scots must make their own future happen - if not Scotland will continue to loose some of its ‘brightest and best’.

63

Ken M,

Stenhousemuir 21/01/2007 21:31:23

63, ric the taxi driver. You say Tony Blair is looking for a legacy. Apart from the fact that he was swept into power looking for a legacy, he will be swept out of wower without a leg, I say, to stand on.

64

Martyk,

SUSSEX SE ENGLAND GOLDEN GOOSE 21/01/2007 22:02:32

so now scots have defeated nazism and the romans. but still dont have even a stock exchange!!! jeez. feckin losers or what.

65

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 21/01/2007 22:19:44

#68 - there is a stock exchange in Glasgow. What's your point exactly?
I've not read all the comments but if some fool says we defeated nazism, it doesn;t mean we all think that. You can't tar everyone with the same brush. That's like me saying all english are dicks just because of you... the truth is the majority of them wouldn't fall under this category. You would though.

66

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2007 22:24:40

#62. strathystag: How strage looks like you can down load a picture of Mr Darling? (Does anyone know if he menttion if he dies his hair or eyebrows anywhere?) (I'm just curious.)

67

fatboyslim,

ciff richard rocks! 21/01/2007 22:34:51

The union is as useless as a chocolate fire guard and about as relevant as Cliff Richard is too modern music.

68

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2007 22:39:04

#58+59. Ally Scott.
First question;
Will the SNP disband after independence?
Well why should they? They are a mature political party, not a one issue pressure group.

In reality?
Quite possibly, but I don't think they will be the only ones.

The Conservative and 'Unionist' Party.

The Tories in Scotland might be better to not wait for independence before reinventing themselves, if they wish to remain on the political landscape here as more than a historic ruin.

The Labour party in Scotland are going to be faced with an embarrassment of unemployed Holyrood and Westminster parliamentarians looking to resurrect their political careers.

We can expect to see some political bloodletting of the 'Tommy Sheridan' variety, as scores are settled and fiefdoms created.

I anticipate that, initially at least, we will see an explosion of parties rise from the ashes of the old unionists and new alliances, and emnities, surface with the realpolitik which emerges.

As ever, the liberals will prostitute themselves to the highest bidder.

69

Martyk,

SUSSEX SE ENGLAND GOLDEN GOOSE 21/01/2007 22:40:27

read lead into thread dopey. where is glasgow se? amalgamation with london 1973. glasgow closed just after! along with cardiff and belfast! conned again ye numpties. ye"re all fantasy merchants. tossers

70

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2007 22:41:36

#68. Martyk: Why did you even bover coming on this web site if your going to insult the Scots.

Do you go on Welsh News papper sites and Northen Ireland ones and throw insults at them too?

I wouldn't go on an English news papper wed site to insult the English.

71

fatboyslim,

new york 21/01/2007 22:43:56

martyk your a muppet!
shut up with your drunken sleevering rubbish

72

fatboyslim,

new york 21/01/2007 22:45:17

74 eve
why not it might be funny reading there reactions go blogg on the daily telegraph for a laugh

73

fatboyslim,

The union a match made in heavan! 21/01/2007 22:48:53

The union is as useless as a chocolate fire guard and about as relevant as Cliff Richard is too modern music.

repeated again as i find nobody reads the one liners,
if they are before the long bloggs as everyone is too busy scrolling past them.
nobody reads long bloggs to much hassle if i want information i will find it myself

74

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2007 22:49:39

#58+59. Ally Scott.
""..And if we didn’t change to the euro and stuck with sterling instead, would this not be an admission that we could never be truly independent of our much larger neighbour?..""

Did Britain signing up to Bretton Woods after WWII mean England had signed away her independence?

When Maggie Thatcher fixed Sterling at DM3.25 was she signing away British independence?

No.

With Black Wednesday, I think just about everyone woke up to the fact that national currencies on their own are just too open to attack hostile market forces.

Even the once mighty Pound Sterling.

75

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2007 22:51:32

#73. Martyk: Ah, I get it now your a unionist who can't think of anything to say thats pro-union so you refer to insults. May I concratulate you on your very smart move, as you've possible made the cause for independce that wee bit more really to us Scots.

We don't like hearing people tell us we canny do things.

Next you'll be saying we can't look after our selfs on our own and we're so in cample of carring out daily activtys (Which is untrue).

We'll cope just fine post union.

If theres no stock exchange in Scotland We'll create oneand that will create jobs too.

So go away unless you've got something thats a bit more friendly to say and think about what your plans are for the future.

The futures bright the future is the end of the Unoin of the Treaty (May it cease to exits, 10year down the line)

76

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2007 23:10:18

#76. fatboyslim: Good Idea, I've just posted a comment.

There 10xs more stricter than the Scotaman.

Don't think they like it as its no up. Maybe I should have titled it "Vote Lib Dems", Even though I would never dream of doing that myself.

77

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2007 23:10:50

#58+59. Ally Scott.
""..Would a split develop overnight between the economically-powerful Edinburgh and the state-dependent west?..""

Is there a split between economiocally-powerfull Westminster and the state-dependent 'North'?

""..Would we still take BBC and ITV, or would an independent government set up a SBC? ..""

Yes, to both.

With digital and cable tv why would we have feeds from all over the world and not England?

78

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2007 23:20:12

#81. livilion: I think Ally Scott has left the web site.

Good night all, Sweet dreams

Sweet dreams of an indpedent Scotland.

79

Reiver,

Borders 21/01/2007 23:32:48

Same old, same old ...

Lose the chip (on the shoulder) and embrace our future within the Union, or, seceed and become a small cog in the European dream (with no import) that is not democratically run by the people of Scotland, England, Northern Ireland or Wales and we will all then lose any prospect of self-determination going forward.

The British have had the good sense to stand together in the past ... it has saved our common goals and ideals, it is at times such as now we need to reflect, review and lead our countries as one ... we are all British (old, new and mixed ... there is no pure race for Britain).

For the people thinking of secession, I urge you to think again, study our common histories and ask yourself why on earth we have not closed the possibility of secession off in the past ... or, why we should not do so now.

80

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2007 23:37:02

#82
aye Eve I reckon you're right but he'll no doubt be back for a wee shuftie at his responses.

Credit where it's due, at least if you put a reasoned argument there's some to and fro-ing.

Media-1, Martyk and their like, come on and give it ya-boo-sucks, what can you say to the village idiots?

Anyway i was half through my last response to Ally.
i'll post that and away to the ol scratcher myself.

G'night!

81

Dave M,

21/01/2007 23:57:37

No offence, Unionist naysayers, but you've had your day.

Hop on, you might enjoy being responsible and able to think for yourselves.

82

Royster,

22/01/2007 00:19:02

#64. Bonnie, Although you contradict yourself, you have a point. Perhaps the UK should become like the Linux Operating System, 'Open Access'. Anyone with a credit card can come and work, you pay a flat rate of tax (16%) on all transactions and income. Well perhaps not open access, perhaps the state should charge 5,000 quid upfront to newa rrivals' credit cards just to cover itself for emergencies.

83

livilion,

livingston 22/01/2007 00:22:37

#83. Reiver, Borders
Aye you're right, we are all British.

Isn't that what's left after you take the English away?


In England, if you are not quite what they'd call 'proper English', aren't you deemed to be British?

Fair enough, it served us well enough while the Empire was still on the go, but the UK cut its last ties to the old Empire or Commonwealth in 1972 and joined the EEC.

Since then the common market that was the United Kingdom has had steadily less importance to Scotland while the EU has steadily gained in relevance.

Whitehall dumped her old Commonwealth partners when it suited, and dropped them right in it, when we're no more use to them we'll be next.

I dare say we'd have had a similar debate at the end of the Roman era.
No doubt there would have been a conversation along the lines of Monty Python's 'But what have yer Romans ever done for us?'
'Romanes Eunt Domus'

'Tempus fugit
Sed fugit interea fugit irreparabile tempus'.

84

Dave M,

22/01/2007 00:22:50

87 Royster

Time for bo bos.

85

Bill, Dunblane,

22/01/2007 02:00:33

Aye, 83, yer a dyin' breed. And gie lonely.

86

Royster,

22/01/2007 05:53:05

#88. Livilion, Why have a go at the English? Why do you present them as a single bloc? Do you see them as an enemy?

87

murren59,

Isle of Arran 22/01/2007 06:17:37

This Herald editorial says it all...

EDITORIAL COMMENT - IN THIS SECTION INDEX

Left out in Europe
When choice is meaningless.

Hoping for crumbs from the grown-ups' table. This is the picture that emerges from a devastating report of Scottish Executive officials and the way they are treated in their dealings with European institutions in Brussels. As The Herald reveals today, they are routinely forgotten, ignored or dismissed, either by accident or design, when trying to influence policy-making for the benefit of Scotland. It would be bad enough if it were Brussels bureaucrats cast in the role of high-handed, secretive know-it-alls.

The document is all the more damaging because it is Whitehall officials who are scornful of their executive counterparts responsible for lobbying Brussels, the strategic nerve centre of the Europe Union. The document, written by Michael Aron, head of the executive's office in Brussels, gives examples of Scottish ministers being left out of EU council meetings and having to sit in another room where they must listen, but cannot contribute, to the debate. Even when allowed access to the EU's commissioners, it is on condition that Scotland toes the Westminster line. Is this what Labour ministers at Whitehall and Holyrood, celebrating the 300th anniversary last week of the Treaty of Union being ratified, mean by Scotland enjoying a Union dividend?

The timing of the report's appearance in the public domain could not be less propitious for Labour, partly because of that anniversary. With some 100 days before Scots go to the polls to elect a new government at Holyrood, the document gives substance to the SNP charges that Scottish ministers have little or no relevance in the European negotiating forums, and that decisions are made as a consequence that are against this country's interests. The revelations will be seen as a gift to the Nationalists, reinforcing their Scotland in Europe policy, a ke

88

murren59,

Isle of Arran 22/01/2007 06:19:41

contd.

Yet, according to Jack Straw, the Leader of the Commons, yesterday, it is Mr Alexander's "excellent leadership" that is causing the SNP's attempt to turn May's elections into a referendum on independence to unravel.

That strategy will be news to Alex Salmond, the SNP leader. Or is Mr Straw so out of touch he does not realise there is a First Minister responsible for running Scotland? Where does power really lie? Not that Mr McConnell comes out of Mr Aron's report well. The official points out that Rhodri Morgan, the Welsh First Minister, is bolder in his Brussels dealings by going directly to the EU commission. The Herald has argued for a long time that Scotland needs a stronger voice in Europe. Mr Aron has provided irrefutable evidence that its absence should not be tolerated. We can't afford the consequences of meekly sitting outside the headteacher's study forever.

89

livilion,

livingston 22/01/2007 07:44:20

#91. Royster
Can anybody's granny be an enemy? mine wasn't, she's dead now but she was a Cockney.

My mother in law was from Lancashire, hmmm, well.

My sister is married to a guy from Essex.
My brother's in-laws are from Cambridge.
We all get on fine.

Why have a go at them en bloc?
Maybe for the same reason you say Scots, en bloc, are too dumb to run our own affairs.

So what I said in #88, you'd refute?

Anyone living in England can be English, not just British?

If you're referring to the situation as regards the Commonwealth, and the dumping thereof, I know that was Whitehall's doing.

Again Royster, you resort to sh$tst$rr$ing rather than any cogent argument, unlike Ally Scott.

I expect you feel that you're doing your bit, for Queen and Country, to dampen enthusiasm for Scottish nationalism.

In truth, you're pouring petrol onto the flame.

90

livilion,

livingston 22/01/2007 07:48:35

92. murren59, Isle of Arran

Spot on!

91

Royster,

22/01/2007 09:57:37

#88. Cool it Livilion cat, perhaps I misunderstood your 'proper English' quote. You appear obsessed by the number of English MPs at Westminster compared to the number of Scottish. Although I can see your point, I feel this a red herring as English MPs never vote together anyway and most votes are about what is deemed to be good for the UK (including Scotland) not specifically regional matters. Scotland's influence usually depends on which party is governing. If Labour is in power then Scotland's voice will be heard much stronger in government than under the tories (which is a shame as the tories are the only true unionist party).

92

,

22/01/2007 10:49:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 306403, Article id was mapped to record!
93

,

22/01/2007 10:58:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 306433, Article id was mapped to record!
94

Andrew Allan,

22/01/2007 11:22:31

In 1560 John Knox published a Book of Discipline, in which he called for a national system of education, and eighty years later the Scottish Parliament passed the first statute to this effect.
In 1696 the Scottish Parliament passed its ‘Act for setting schools’ establishing a school in every parish in Scotland not already equipped with one.
In 1579 George Buchanan, a Scottish historian wrote a book on the nature of political authority, titled ‘The Law of Government among the Scots’, the book asserts that all political authority ultimately belonged to the people, who came together to elect someone, whether a King or a body of magistrates, to manage their affairs. The people were always more powerful than the rulers they created; they were free to remove them at will. ‘The people’, he explained, ‘have the right to confer the royal authority upon whomever they wish’. This is the sort of view we are used to ascribing to John Locke; in fact, it belongs to a Presbyterian Scot from Stirlingshire writing more than a hundred years earlier. And Buchanan went further. When the ruler or rulers failed to act in the people’s interest, Buchanan wrote, then each and every citizen, even ‘the lowest and meanest of men’, had the sacred right and duty to resist that tyrant, even to the point of killing him. Here was a powerful formula for democracy: government of the people and for the people.
The effect of this egalitarian democratic spirit on Scottish culture would be profound and long-lasting. When Englishman Gilbert Burnet visited western Scotland in the 1660s, he had never seen anything like it. ‘We were indeed amazed to see a poor commonalty so capable to argue upon points of government, and on the bounds to be set to the power of princes,’ he wrote afterwards. ‘Upon all these topics they had texts of scripture at hand; and were ready with their answers to anything that was said to them.’ Burnet also added, ‘This measure of knowledge was spread even amongst the

95

Andrew Allan,

22/01/2007 11:22:56

In 1695 was the first of many bad harvests in Scotland, tens of thousands die of starvation. Scotland’s low value exports weren’t bringing in the kind of profits the English were with their new empire and higher value import and export trading.
There were Scots who realized how the new system worked, and set out to bring some of the action to Scotland.
On 26 May 1695 William Paterson’s company of Scotland is given the permanent monopoly for Scottish trade with Asia & Africa, and a 31 year monopoly with America. Hostility from English merchants curtailed Paterson’s plans.
On 23 July 1696 the Scottish Parliament agreed to Paterson’s proposal to use the company to found a Scottish colony in Panama, on the isthmus of Darien. The English did everything possible to prevent the money from being raised, so Scots themselves were left to so.
On 17 July 1698 five ships set sail for the New World.
On 3 November 1698 the ships dropped anchor at the Bay of Darien. They realize they had only brought six months of provisions instead of nine. The English from their bases in Jamaica and Havana made sure that no more were to be had. Things got worse with disease, and then the Spanish reasserted their claim to Darien as part of Panama, seizing one of the ships.
On July 1699 just one year after setting sail from Leith harbour the survivors set sail home. Of the original 1,200 who set sail from Scotland, very few returned.
Scotland refused to quit, and sent two more expeditions, neither did much better. The last one better armed and provisioned and with more men fought the Spanish from day one.
On April 1700 with four ships crowded with men the survivors gave up and set sail for home, but never made it as two sank, and the other two were taken by the English and Spanish one a piece.
In 1704 the English Parliament passed the ‘Aliens Act’ which meant English property couldn’t be passed onto Scottish heirs. The act also banned all major im

96

Royster,

22/01/2007 13:41:21

#100. Those pesky English, eh? Always there to trip up the Scots. Of course Scotland has gained absolutely nothing from the Union and it's been all downhill since. If only the Darien scheme had worked then things would have worked out so much better. I mean the Scots never once interfered in English affairs at the behest of foreigners or self-interest.

97

Duncan,

Scotland free from bigots and onions. 22/01/2007 15:30:07

So the Scotman is a pro unionist paper, and have removed my postings at 97 and 98 to prove it. Press and blog censorship, what a pathetic way to try and win the argument, it's fuel to the fire burning bright for independence.

98

Duncan,

Scotland free from bigots and onions. 22/01/2007 15:38:26

The point that you are dliberately avoiding Royster to try and shore up your bankrupt arguments supporting this bankrupt union, is that Darien was but one example. for hundreds of years England tried every means possible to subdue and partion Scotland and failed at every turn.
The Darien scheme was their big chance to get the Scots where they wanted them, finacialy ruined, they knew that if they offered money to bankrupt and crooked landowners and so called noble men they would have their way, that and the Aliens Act ensured that they did.
If you want to see a perfect illustration of the so called benfits of union please re read post number 92 from Murren. That is the grim stark and humilating truth of this union, that and censorship and pro union bias by our English edited Scotsman. Lets see how long this post stays up.

99

Eve,

Scotland 22/01/2007 16:14:21

#92. murren59: NO Scot could say this was for the Best.

Scots and people who care about Scotland unite and make a stance for EQUAILTY.

INDEPENDENCE MUST BE THE ONLY SOULTION


p.s. I read the artcle in the front page on the hearld a thought "WHAT". Haven't quite got passed that page yet.

100

fiferjohn,

benbecula 22/01/2007 18:05:39

#96 royster
that is bull nobody in the labour party or lib dems or Tories will speak or be allowed to speak out if it is not in the interests of the south east of England .perfect example trident. must live in a labour fairy land if you believe that load of bollocks you just spouted

101

livilion,

livingston 22/01/2007 18:26:48

I take it you have heard of the political whip?

What party whip will bend to the will of 10 Scottish parliamentarians when there are another 90 with a prior claim on English matters?

Even the 'Loaded' Cabinet office has no more than 3 in 10 Scottish voices.

Hardly swamped by the 'tartan hordes', is it?

102

fiferjohn,

benbecula 22/01/2007 18:35:50

i have always in my heart since i was 18 knew Scotland was being shafted and today's article just gives solid proof that it was true . please Scotland wake up the union is destroying us we have got to win our independence and freedom to decided and act on want is best for us.wish i was more articulate so i could put it better.

103

Derick fae Yell,

22/01/2007 20:46:35

74 and 76 - go blog on Daily Telegraph

been dere, don dat. Tried ta do it constructively

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinio...

104

Eve,

Scotland (a separatist and proud of it ) 22/01/2007 20:53:58

#108. Derick fae Yell: I did give it ago as I mention in #80. I think they rejected my comment cause I mention Scottish independence, in Blog about the Lib dems. That would never happen on the Scotsman website.

P.S. Just spreading the word:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6286827.stm

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1137...

105

Duncan,

Scotland free of bigots and onions ????§ 22/01/2007 21:09:17

#68
Sheep molesting inbred yokel. BaaaaBa

106

Duncan,

Scotland free of bigots and onions ????§ 22/01/2007 21:12:14

DEREK FAE YELL. ????¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
I meant to ask on the windmill thread. How do you stop cold water circulating from your solar water heater on dark frosty nights. Thats if you get cold nights up there :>)

107

Eve,

Scotland (a separatist and proud of it ) 22/01/2007 21:16:30
108

fiferjohn,

benbecula 22/01/2007 21:21:16

he whats power and does't give a rats ass what he kills to get it.


 

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