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Hodge attacks Salmond's Chessmen gambit

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Published Date: 27 January 2008
UK CULTURE minister Margaret Hodge has dismissed Alex Salmond's demand for the Lewis Chessmen to be returned to Scotland as "nonsense".
Writing in today's Scotland on Sunday, she accuses the First Minister of "creating conflict, not culture" with his call for the artefacts, found on a beach in Lewis in the 19th century, to be "seized" from their home in the British Museum in London.

And she suggests that the chessmen do no necessarily belong in Scotland anyway, pointing out that they were made in Norway and buried in Lewis at time when the Western Isles belonged to Norway, and were on their way to Ireland.

Hodge's intervention came as Scottish Culture Minister Linda Fabiani yesterday travelled to London to view the chessmen and met museum officials to discuss the artefacts' "repatriation".

Fabiani rejected Hodge's comments, saying: "This type of uninformed and dismissive attitude is not helpful.

"The reality is that under the current Treasure Trove system, the Lewis Chessmen would have stayed in Scotland and been displayed in Scotland's museums."

In spite of the UK Government's refusal to budge on the issue, Fabiani said she would continue to press the case for the return of the chessmen, which date back to the 13th century.

"I viewed the Lewis Chessmen at the British Museum – the set is a wonderful treasure which was found on the Isle of Lewis around 1831.

"The Scottish Government believes that it is unacceptable that only 11 Lewis Chessmen rest at the National Museum of Scotland, while the other 82 remain in the British Museum, and I shared this view with the British Museum."

Hodge suggests that Salmond has ignored the role of modern museums in sharing their collections with as wide an audience as possible in order to make a political point.

She writes: "It's not hard to imagine someone overseas wanting the glorious mummies and antiquities in the National Museum in Edinburgh sent back to Egypt, or the Burrell's Impressionist paintings repatriated to France.

"And maybe we could redress the balance still further. How about slapping in a claim for the pink granite of the Albert Memorial in London to be stripped out and 'sent home' to Mull? It's a lot of nonsense, isn't it?"



The full article contains 376 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 January 2008 10:05 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

Jimmy the Pie,

27/01/2008 00:33:49
Just keeps getting better!! Alan Johnston now - who's next? Should be worth staying up all night while it's still legal and typing away!! Anything to say Lord Foulkes????
2

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 00:38:03
Hmm.Fragments of similiar chessmen found at Trondheim.
A theory that they were on their way to Ireland.
And somehow a wee shelter was built for them in Lewis.
Were the people who first put forward this theory based in Oxbridge?
Scotland as we all know, was a barbarous nation that should have been easily conquered by the extremely civilised Nation to it's South.
And of course any sort of artistic ability evaporates the further it gets from the wee triangle of Oxford Cambridge and London.
3

,

27/01/2008 00:52:22
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4

AJM,

27/01/2008 00:58:37
If you bought anything of importance in Scotland in good faith and legally, keep quiet because Alex will be after you. Well not exactly, only if you are in a British institution.

Perhaps if Alex Salmond really believes in this policy he should start returning all items that originate on foreign lands back to that country irrespective of whether they were bought or that the country that now claims them had jurisdiction at the time.

Start now act in good faith, show leadership, show yourself to be a leader of of an ideal. Start handing them all back unilaterally.

No it will not happen because he is mischief making thats all, no grand idea, no culture, no thought apart from pseudo anti England. Will this be going down well overseas, nope, they all have items that should be returned, thats why it is very quiet and taken very diplomatically. This is all to try and deflect away from wind turbines.

Actually the best place for these pieces if they are to go anywhere would be back to Norway, where they were made and whose countrymen they were for.
5

AJM,

27/01/2008 00:59:29
#3 Jwil They certainly were not on there way to Edinburgh.
6

,

27/01/2008 01:05:42
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7

,

27/01/2008 01:13:28
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8

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 01:14:58
4
AJM
Read my post.
I could go into a... Nah.
If you wish to debate;-Learn to spell.
And think.
9

democrate,

central Scotland 27/01/2008 01:15:31
Ms Hodge's use of words like "nonsense" and "slapping" tend to betray a level of discomfiture. I wonder why?
10

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 01:18:49
My God. It's a cold day in Hell when I welcome you Fakey.
You do know the difference between there and their.

I hope.
11

,

27/01/2008 01:19:11
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12

AJM,

27/01/2008 01:19:55
#6 A proud doonhammer
I remember you could get a set of moulds and resin and make your own replicas, who would care.

Fabiani "This type of uninformed and dismissive attitude is not helpful." Why o why did not Alex brief the woman that they were not going to fall over themselves to further spurious and silly SNP games. Grow up.
13

Guga II,

Rockall 27/01/2008 01:20:14
The so-called British Museum is nothing more than a repository for stolen goods. Every stolen artifact should be returned to their original homeland, including the Elgin Marbles.

That's the problem, of course. Hodge is well aware that they are in possession of stolen property, and knows that the British Museum would be nearly empty if the artifacts were returned to their legal owners.

As for her stupid statement that the Lewis chessmen were on their way to Ireland, where did she dream that up? Did some Viking from the spirit world come to her in a dream?

#6 More like the Tuvalu Downhill Ski Coach.
14

mesmiths,

fife 27/01/2008 01:24:18
I ATTACK THE SCOTSMAN'S ANTI SALMOND GAMBIT
15

,

27/01/2008 01:24:19
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16

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 01:26:54
13
Guga
The Eagle Standard of the 45e Ligne taken by Sergeant Ewart at Waterloo.
Who does that belong too?
17

,

27/01/2008 01:27:18
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18

An Beal Bacht,

27/01/2008 01:28:10
Wendy Alexander has been silent on this issue perhaps because the only move she knows is the fool's gambit!
19

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 01:29:20
16
Typo :-(
20

,

27/01/2008 01:29:39
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21

AJM,

27/01/2008 01:30:58
#8 Conan the Librarian
What am I meant to think about, AS is posturing thats all.
Perhaps you could respond to the point rather than nit picking. Would not like to bring back books overdue to your library.

SNP cybernats on the back foot?
22

,

27/01/2008 01:31:54
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23

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 01:33:33
17
That would be up to the Egyptian government, who cared for their past so much that steam trains were powered by burning mummys
24

Jimmy the Pie,

27/01/2008 01:34:45
Ayrshire Scot

Any thoughts on the latest donations scandal involving New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party???
25

,

27/01/2008 01:34:46
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26

AJM,

27/01/2008 01:35:43
#13 Guga II, Rockall
Almost all large museums have this problem the SNP would want us to believe that this is a curious British Museum issue.
27

,

27/01/2008 01:36:54
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28

Jimmy the Pie,

27/01/2008 01:39:14
So as Wendy has already admitted her guilt in breaking the law, why do you think she hasn't resigned yet??

Looks obvious doesn't it?
29

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 01:39:53
21
AJM
I thought you were another kneejerk unionist, who do appear on these threads by the bucketful.
Prove me wrong.
Convert me.
30

AJM,

27/01/2008 01:42:06
The Museum of Scotland did not want this raising as the St Ninian's Isle treasure should be returned to Shetland, should it not?

They have got a brand new museum that they would look lovely in.

Oh what a tangle web we weave if at.....
31

livilion,

livingston 27/01/2008 01:45:52
4 AJM,27/01/2008 00:58:37

So how do you know where these chess pieces were made and where they were bound for?

Just because there's a set like these in Norway, what's to say those weren't produced by some Viking artists on Lewis and shipped back to Trondheim?

Where does the Ireland idea come from, did they arrive with the original delivery note?
32

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 01:48:58
Ayrshire Fakey, where is the original?
Can't be much fun stalking somebody when they aren't there....?
33

AJM,

27/01/2008 01:49:41
#29 I doubt I will, but this issue is serious beyond AS and a few ivory pieces, as others have pointed out they is plenty of stuff in Scotlands museums that could be repatriated. I would personally love local items to be displayed locally, it would help tourism tremendously, that includes items that are in Edinburgh/London that should be in the Hebrides, Orkney, Shetland, Birmingham or Rotherham. But AS is not asking for the St Ninian's treasure to be sent back to Shetland, he appears not believe in the principle only the posture.

Converted?
34

livilion,

livingston 27/01/2008 01:50:30
#25 Ayrshire Scot™

It stopped about a year ago and hasn't kept time since.
35

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 01:52:00
31
See 2
36

AJM,

27/01/2008 01:54:43
#31 livilion,livingston
You are right, these experts are only trying to have an educated guess, interpret what they see, they are probably not far off as, I have never heard of any great disagreement.
However as with any such items what I see in them is the beauty and skill of the creator.
37

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 02:01:46
33
Hehe
Fair enough AJM .
As I said before there are many nutjobs out there.
My main point was that a theory made by Anglocentrc er ..."experts" in the Nineteenth Century,does not relate in any shape or form to the reality...
38

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 27/01/2008 02:27:08
I think we may have entered a phase where Westminster is now saying no to any and all demands from Salmond and Holyrood. And of course, what can he do? Nothing! Well.....not quite nothing.

As Holyrood is already beginning to gather and Westminster is about to get a lesson on, the ultimate arbiter is the people.

Salmond is well aware of this and will find ways of appealing to them directly over as many issues as possible. He is of course in a win win situation.

If he gets his way the SNP looks more and more powerful and Holyrood grows in stature at Westminster's expense, if he doesn't get his way Labour and Westminster look like dinosaurs refusing to recognise the new politics in Scotland.

The more Westminster says NO the more the Scots begin to get the idea that perhaps Westminster is superfluous to the equation, especially as Salmond will generally pick issues which have wide support amongst the people and even in Holyrood, as is the case with the elections for example.

Salmond is not our Prime Minister for nothing you know. You may have noticed he has a bit of a flair for the politics.
39

Willie Macleod,

Wick 27/01/2008 02:29:59
And the new Scotland moves on to what.. the same tribal sectarian name calling abuse and smears this is not what we fought the referendum for to turn on ourselves
40

Edward,

27/01/2008 02:40:14
'UK CULTURE minister Margaret Hodge ' Now theres a contradiction to start with!
Who the hell does this upstart idiot think shs is telling us that we create conflict buy asking for the Chessmen to be returned to Scotland!
I think there are a few that are loosing sight of the realities.
The Fact is these pieces were found in Scotland and should have been displayed in a Scottish museum
The Hebrides were in Scotland in 1831. All this talk of the Hebrides originally being Norwegian and the pieces were made in Norway is just a smoke screen by the Westminster government. Lets take for example the Gold and other artifacts found from the Spanish Armada that foundered of the coast of Britain. These belomged to Spain , were made in Spain, so why are they in the British and other museums. Hodge is as usual coming out with crap! Westminster is getting uptight because Scots are asking for artifacts found in Scotland to be returned to Scotland, artifacts that shouldnt have left Scotland in the first place!
41

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

27/01/2008 03:46:25
Its probably being pedantic but then it is up to each nation to ask to reclaim their stolen artefacts is it not.

Should we give all our artefacts away and ask for someone else to display them for us permanently? - No.

I would imagine Egypt would rightly like to see many relics returned and probably does so quite frequently.
42

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

27/01/2008 03:51:08
Its that old establishment/westminster thing isn't it!

You can't can't run your economy (Empire) and you certainly can't display your own heritage (culture)

Nothing like displaying culture as long as its not the culture you don't want displayed in the origins of that culture Mrs Hodge!

Take language etc etc
43

langtonian,

scotus 27/01/2008 03:53:33
Having visited the National Museum of Scotland to view on the first day,"Silver made in Scotland"-it runs from 25 January-Sun 27 of April well worth a visit,very difinitive,interesting,educational.It was a revelation to myself,in particular the skills involved to produce and hallmark,over a period of some five centuries,the greater volume of which artefacts were/are Edinburgh based,most interesting and well worth a visit.

44

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

GREECE WANT THE ELGIN MARBLES BACK 27/01/2008 05:07:44
Mrs Hodge.

Are you now claiming that citizens of Greece are creating conflict?

"It's a lot of nonsense, isn't it?"

You like the rest of your party treat people of other cultures with contempt and this contempt is about to put you out of a job at the next election. Thankfully

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=A2HTJR0EF0QJLQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/27/welgin127.xml
45

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

27/01/2008 05:11:43
Its this British imperial attitude that allows us to believe that half of the only surviving relics of the Parthenon sculptures should be ours.

I am glad I was born or raised to believe in cultural imperialism or theft.
46

langtonian,

scotus 27/01/2008 05:40:23
The reality of Salmond's "norse saga" is that it is plainly yet another ploy,these peurile attempts to divert attention away from a 9 month old pregnant manifesto that is heading for abortion.

Visit the NMS, view the "Scottish eleven" of the Lewis chessmen, go to the NMS shop and buy a COMPLETE replica set. Laymen, from a short distance away will be hard put to tel the diffeance.
47

An Beal Bacht,

27/01/2008 05:55:16
Hodge is quite right - they were sent by my great grandfather Bjorn (many times removed) to my great auntie Grainne (many times removed).

My uncle Callum (many times removed) was carrying them to her when he got stranded on Lewis after a long drinking session with the McLeod branch of the family and, after eating tainted oysters, got the flux and died.

My cousin Angus (many times removed) - after cremating uncle Callum (many timed removed) - buried the chessmen in his honour.

Please understand that my family makes no direct claim on the chessmen - just a general claim that they be returned to whence they came - in uncle Callum's honour.

Slainte
48

langtonian,

scotus 27/01/2008 05:58:02
A hypothetical question.?

Given that Alex Salmond was no longer able to continue as First Minister of the SNP,-Scottish Executive,for whatever reason,what then would be the prospects of the SNP being able to win any future election,given even the largest ever spend ,by any party in Scotland,and that was of course with A.S.at the helm of the good ship SNP.Lifebelts alround.!
49

Haleakelaman,

Auld Grey City 27/01/2008 07:19:02
Why is everyone being taken in by this diversionary non-news?
50

,

27/01/2008 07:52:33
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51

,

27/01/2008 08:07:36
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52

Hamish MacBeth,

27/01/2008 08:35:13
#4 AJM,I think it was the Aberdeen Museum that recently gave back Maori tatooed heads to the tribes here in NZ.
Also when I visted the Cairo Museum a few years ago I thought it a shame that it was'nt that big. Maybe the London Museum should give back some of the Egyptian artifacts they "acquired"?
53

donald,

glasgow 27/01/2008 08:37:38
Hodge is a name for an English country bumpkin. See "Drunner Hodge".
54

donald,

glasgow 27/01/2008 08:38:24
Sorry "Drummer" Hodge. That was Labour bummer.
55

Alannah,

27/01/2008 08:59:15
Alec, please can you do something about education and the health service and stopping wasting valuable time on gimmicks like this? No doubt I will be accused of some appalling unionist agenda for even saying so, but I honestly believe you are out of touch and people are simply keen for you to get on and do the job you were elected to do i.e. govern Scotland!
56

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 27/01/2008 09:01:46
As already mentioned, Patricia Hodge's government does not practice what she preaches.

Greece has one small piece of the Elgin Marbles and wishes the remainder returned but the U.K. government completely refuses. Remember, unlike the Lewis Chessmen which were found washed up on a beach, the Marbles were plundered by Lord Elgin!

The Kelvingrove Museum has already set a good example by returning the Lakota Sioux death shirt, and the University of Aberdeen and Glasgow Museums have returned Maori shrunken heads to New Zealand.

The British Museum, like Patricia Hodge, has an ingrained imperial view on this matter.
57

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 27/01/2008 09:08:45
#13 Conan - "The so-called British Museum is nothing more than a repository for stolen goods. Every stolen artifact should be returned to their original homeland, including the Elgin Marbles."

If Lord Elgin (A Scot) had not bought the Elgin marbles from the Greeks in the 18thC they would probably no longer exist. The Parthenon had been used as a gunpowder store during the Turkish occupation and had exploded - destroying massive areas of the structure, Elgin rescued them at a time when nobody in Greece cared about lumps of ancient stone. Similarly, when the Lewis Chessmen were legally bought for the British Museum, they were in danger of being burned by local people as 'witches'. If you think this is far fetched, remember that the very last Great Auk in the world - a sort of giant guillemot standing 3 ft high, was killed and burned as a witch by the residents of St Kilda.

In those days, Britain was an island of reason and culture in a global sea of ignorance and savagery. In many ways, it still is. Try going to Kenya and suggesting they stop butchering the children of other tribal groups with machetes and spears. Try going to Afghanistan and suggesting they stop blowing up the Bamian Buddhas with high explosive. Try going to an SNP meeting and suggesting that everyone in Britain belongs to one larger family of human beings with the same rights and responsibilities. In every case, when people retreat into their little tribal and nationalist loyalties - 'we'r ain folk' they become more atavistic, more xenophobic, more fixated on the parochial. The Lewis Chessmen belong to the wider world and should remain with the institution that rescued them from being burned by ignorant peasants as 'things of the devil'. In Salmond's world, the word 'devil' has merely been replaced by 'The English!'.
58

Mikey,

27/01/2008 09:14:01
So the fake Ayrshire is still stalking, eh? This piece of lowlife, who is too stupid to even make up a name for themself, then postulates on what is right for Scotland? Typical thick unionista who sees lies, sleaze and bluster as the only way of life.

Just like Hodge in fact. Isn't it strange that one fake should defend another?
59

livilion,

livingston 27/01/2008 09:40:18
58 Tweedmouth,Coldstream

Ah, the voice of reason speaks.
Coldstream's very own Alf Garnet.

So the British Empire wasn't really about sending warships around the world to exploit the resources of other peoples for the material benefit of some landed gentry back in Ol' Blighty, and looting whatever they could get their hands on as 'spoils of war', they were actually being sent to preserve their history and cultures?

Fair enough the danger has now passed, time to return those artefacts the superstitious natives back then couldn't be trusted to look after for themselves.
60

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 27/01/2008 09:47:18
Hodge says "It's not hard to imagine someone overseas wanting the glorious mummies and antiquities in the National Museum in Edinburgh sent back to Egypt."
They should have been sent back years ago.
61

Nikostratos,

27/01/2008 09:54:09
Nationalist only understand one thing.......'No' any other response is seen as a sign of weakness and only emboldens them to press for more and more unreasonable demands to foment civil unrest amongst the population.

Their strategy as ever is to create as much unrest and disaffection with England as possible in the expectation of rendering the 'Union' in to pieces.

Hodge is right 'No' to the Nationalists morning noon and night.
62

gus1940,

Edinburgh 27/01/2008 09:58:20
#58

Regarding Xenophobia, observing the London media it always disgusts me that its outpourings contain so much hatred and derision fo all things foreign.

I'm not saying Scotland does not have xenophobes amongst its population but it has always struck me that one of the great differences beween the cultural outlook of Scotland and England is that Scots in general do not hate and look down on all things and people foreign.
63

Pilrig.,

Livingston 27/01/2008 10:02:15
Ayrshire Scot hasn't changed his moniker to Ayrshire North Brit.

I wonder why .
64

Pilrig.,

Livingston 27/01/2008 10:02:16
Ayrshire Scot hasn't changed his moniker to Ayrshire North Brit.

I wonder why .
65

Pilrig.,

Livingston 27/01/2008 10:06:56
Ah such nostalgia...the empire the Sun never set on...enough to inspire me to put up a put a flagpole in my front gairden and run up a Union Flag : )
66

Mirrorman,

27/01/2008 10:10:52
I'm all for old relics being repatriated. You can have Brown, Darling, Martin, Browne and all the other Labour Messmen back anytime.
67

Aesop,

TheScottishPatient .com 27/01/2008 10:12:23
"Maybe we could redress the balance still further. How about slapping in a claim for the pink granite of the Albert Memorial in London to be stripped out and 'sent home' to Mull? It's a lot of nonsense, isn't it?"

And this is from the Minister of Culture? They sure can pick em down in London,
68

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

27/01/2008 10:20:49
58

So you are saying that with hindsight, it is OK to keep artefacts from foreign countries, on the grounds the artefacts may have been destroyed otherwise. Presumably you think going into Kenya et al OK if there is something of cultural value worth taking and keeping indefinately?

Presumably you think the Terracota army worthy of 'rescuing' and not returning thereafter?

Britain may have been an island of culture and reason but lets face it, this was neither widespread among our population, nor pertinent to those who secured the Empire.
69

livilion,

livingston 27/01/2008 10:21:00
49 langtonian,scotus
Hypothetically, most folk in this country support their political parties in the same way they support their football or rugby teams.

Their local 'team' is more or less imprinted on them at birth and they will support them, no matter what, right to the grave.

What I find remarkable is the huge growth in support for the SNP when usually the tide of voting patterns only varies by a few percentage points with each new generation.
This inspite of a universally hostile popular media.

As old cloth cap socialists die off and young voters find no difference between the mainstream unionist parties the worry for unionism must be where is new blood to come from?

As far as Whitehall is concerned this is no bad thing because, hypothetically, all they want is to hold up independence long enough to screw all the resources out of the North Sea oilfields they can, to pay for rebuilding their own infrastructure and economy in the South East and inside the M25 in particular.
70

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

27/01/2008 10:21:42
70

No thanks mirrorman
71

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

27/01/2008 10:25:37
58

British reason was imperialistic, resource led, divisive by nature but better than that of France, Portugal or Spain.

It was not then or now something very much to be proud of - many people died. The only real thing of worth that we left was a better infrastructure than the others.

lets face it, the Middle East is hardly a success story, Sudan is not a success story - shall we go back for more?
72

Miss H,

27/01/2008 10:47:18
The point of the matter is that the Lewis chessmen are just one of many attractions in the British Museum. They have 82 of the 93 pieces, while the rest are in Edinburgh. The focus of the campaign to have them permanently sited the wetsren isles is that it would be a unique selling point for the islands. There is no reason why they could not also go 'on tour' as other artefacts do.
73

langtonian,

scotus 27/01/2008 11:56:49
#73livilion
Found your comment an interesting read,

However there is no indication of a view taken relative to my original posed hypothetical question at,
#49.

If First Minister Alex Salmond of the Scottish Executive was not in that position at the time of the next election,what is the take on such a situation vis-a-vis the outcome of such an election.

Would the SNP continue to enjoy the same level of support? particularly as it is unlikely they will have as large (the largest)available budget to buy media support.

74

Burd Tina,

27/01/2008 12:04:17
76 Miss H

I agree absolutely. If the British Museum wants to borrow some chessmen for an exhibition I'm sure that the Lewis Museum will be happy to lend them to it.
75

 Ayrshire Scot™,

27/01/2008 12:26:42
"creating conflict" - is this the same Margaret Hodge who was on about "British houses for British people" or some such recently in relation to immigrants getting council houses?
76

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 27/01/2008 12:28:24
#62 Livilion

Leaving aside the personal slurs and 'ad hominem' attacks (look it up) - always the sign of a weak argument and slovemly thought -
the British Empire was a historical development at a time when the French, Spanish Belgian, Dutch, Russian and German empires were all exploring, conquering and exploiting the world. just as the Romans, Greeks, Chinese, Carthaginians and Muslims had done in previous centuries. That is what human societies do; they conquer weaker or more undeveloped societies. Today the American Empire rules and in 50 years the Chinese will be ruling you.

The difference between the British and many of the others were that the British left voluntarily and bequeathed countries like India with systems of law, education, sanitation, civil service, railways, language, medicine, agriculture etc. They also unified 400 former princely states under one law with habeas corpus, human rights and parliamentary law. They also left voluntarily and between 1945 and 55 established more than a hundred independent nations with parliamentary governments and independent judiciaries.

Take a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire

To take just one example, it was Britain which ended the global slave trade. We cannot look back and judge another age in hindsight - it just doesn't work. The Scots and English who ran the empire were fervent Christians who really believed they were taking civilisation, medicine, law and reason into the uncharted places. In many cases that is exactly what they did. When Livingston was in Africa he found it easy to navigate between villages - he just followed the trail of skeletons of people butchered in tribal warfare - or from malaria and disease. So what has changed?

The British established museums both here and in colonies, studied languages and cultures (often for the first time), preserved the best of what they found. Before Napoleon and later the British dig up Egypt- there was no Egyptology, no muse
77

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 27/01/2008 12:43:35
Nu Sleazy Labour & unionist parties: out of touch

SNP: finger on the pulse of Scotland

Times they are a-changing...Scottish pride grows & independence is coming.
78

kimba,

27/01/2008 13:01:03
The Lewis chessmen are of British,so what's the problem.
79

kimba,

27/01/2008 13:02:40
81. Good for you,pity 52% of scots want to stay in the UK!
80

Greig frae oz,

The Emerald Tower 27/01/2008 13:03:18
Harden up ye yellow bellied wee gits.
If its found in Scotland it belongs to Scotland, same with oil.
If you are happy to give it all away get out and stop being a hanger on.
For Christs sake Wallace and Bruce drained their veins so we could call ourselves Scots, and you ungracious cowards want to give it all away.
Take a long hard look at your pathetic whingeing carcases and know why the SNP are in power.
You lot are a dying breed, thank god for small mercies.
81

kimba,

27/01/2008 13:04:49
OH, have you heard, gordy is bringing in a "Britishness test" if you don't take it or fail,you will be asked to leave the UK.
82

kimba,

27/01/2008 13:05:42
Some of you scots are oot the door!
83

kimba,

27/01/2008 13:07:07
84,as said by the women on a saturday night,lol.
84

 Ayrshire Scot™,

27/01/2008 13:13:17
87. Kimba

how odd, I have yet to hear from your "lawyer" Ms Ronin, adddress you gave for her 'solicitors office' as '70 Norton Road, Stockton' (coincidentally, upon googling, an address of a social services day care centre for the mentally impaired of Stockton). What is happening, is Ms Ronin ill?
85

kimba,

27/01/2008 13:20:59
89,you are a simple soul,if you think I would give you my solicitors address you are more deluded than I thought,as for not hearing from her,you will,when she is ready,have a nice day.
86

kimba,

27/01/2008 13:22:17
88, totally agree,it should be English culture.
87

 Ayrshire Scot™,

27/01/2008 13:23:39
90. But Kimba, dear, you posted 6 times that your lawyer was Ms Ronin, of Ronins Solicitors, 70 Norton Road, Stockton. When confronted with the fact that this address is in fact a mental health day care facility, you then said Ms Ronin's Solicitors was on the top floor above the mental heath facility. Would you like a link to your own posts?
88

weh,

27/01/2008 13:25:39
Look-lets be clear from the outset:-

1. Hodge is only the monkey acting on runner beans instructions!

2. As I have posted before, bean WILL NEVER grant the scots ANY further powers and do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING which they request!

We Scots have, by allowing other nations to act on our behalf for 300 years, have NO-ONE but ourselves to blame, and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING we can do about it!

Now-all go back to your servants quarters and watch big brother on the Bean Broadcasting Co, theres a good chap!
89

kimba,

27/01/2008 13:28:55
92. Indeed I did, but more fool you, as I said when she Is ready you will hear from her,in the mean time please keep posting your insulting remarks.
90

kimba,

27/01/2008 13:30:39
93. Well at least some of you have got the message.
91

wordsworth,

27/01/2008 13:44:50
Kimba yeah heard about that, lol,are you up for that Scotland
92

wordsworth,

27/01/2008 13:51:49
Scotland take that as a "no" then
93

langtonian,

scotus 27/01/2008 14:22:59
#84Greg frae oz The emerald Tower
It's alway's fine to have such rational,creative input,particlarly from someone who possibly has previouse at Botany bay,or is it from The Emerald Tower in the Wizard of oz? if the latter then of course you do have a restricted lifestyle, being cooped up in a tower is strictly for mentally afflicted persons,you just take your pick, and keep taking the tablets

Dinnae over excite yersel laddie or y'ell burst y'boiler.


94

Highland Mighty,

27/01/2008 14:38:10
Are the SNP STILL moaning about these chessmen??

They are Norwegian and no amount of coordinated ranting by SNP activists will change that fact.

By pursuing this, Salmond is opening the floodgates for claims by 'rightful owners' of artifacts in our museums.

How about all the Napoleonic exhibits in Scottish museums, such as Napoleon's death mask and his private silver tea service? Are we going to send them home?

Here's an idea, why not concentrate on something IMPORTANT to Scotland, Salmond?
95

AJ Fife,

27/01/2008 15:06:09
Alex Salmond 1 Paranoid Unionist Tw@ts 0

How Scotland's finest ever leader must laugh!:D
96

,

27/01/2008 15:49:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

 Ayrshire Scot™,

27/01/2008 15:50:42
KIMBA

I feel I must point out to you that a poster called "Reader" on the Snnday Herald (Alex Salmond thread) has just posted stating that you are insane. I feel this is a job for your lawyers, Judith Ronin and Co. Here is the link to this fiend's attack on you

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.1997287.0.0.php
98

,

27/01/2008 16:13:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
99

Ike,

Glasgow 27/01/2008 16:55:00
I just can't see where the Scottish Government hope to progress on this one. Artefacts of all kinds have been looted across the world across time, by every temporary power. A better policy would be to commit to enhancing the properties which cannot be contested like Linlithgow, Melrose Abbey, Dunnotar Castle to name but 3.
100

Ike,

Glasgow 27/01/2008 16:56:58
Mr Salmond has played cleverly so far but this is a poor move when he has so many alternatives.
101

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 17:09:46
106
Que?
102

,

27/01/2008 17:20:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
103

GMCD,

dundee 27/01/2008 17:22:09
With Salmond "putting in a word" in for a SNP donor - you'd think the SNPites would be keeping thier heads down on any suggwestions of sleaze....
This just proves that either the SNP is a one man party or Salmond jsut not trust any of his numpty colleagues.....
104

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 17:30:47
106
1.f3 e5
2.g4 Qh4

105

,

27/01/2008 17:39:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
106

WL,

livingston 27/01/2008 18:47:01
The English museums are full with items which they have stolen from every country on the earth. Why do they get away with that ???????
107

Westcoaster,

perth 27/01/2008 19:08:21
114

EVERY museum in the world is like that, Don't you start to take some moral high ground you think burrell found his collection, you think livingston paid for stuff he got on his travels, both thieving jocks like the rest of us... wembley turf, goal posts>
108

Fenland Farmer,

Cromwell's England 27/01/2008 19:17:45
38

"Salmond is not our Prime Minister for nothing you know."

Salmond is not your Prime Minister he is your elected First Minister.....Brown is the non elected PM. However, unlike the Chess Set he WILL be returning to Scotland sometime in the next 24 months along with the rest of the Mafia. Free of Charge!

Have a look at his next Great Idea in today's Mail.
109

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 27/01/2008 20:01:43
115 'Jackie Priset'
If anyone on this forum is being 'pathetic', 'foolish'. 'parochial' and 'moronic' it is you - as someone who makes offensive assertions but offers NO EVIDENCE or debatable facts. Take note, debate and discussion are the basis of civilised discourse; name-calling, ad-hominem attacks and offensive remarks merely define you as what you are - if you are still confused, read your posting again then go take a look in the mirror.

It is not possible to arrive at a conclusion over something like the British Empire - it is too vast for any human being to understand. It covered 40% of the planet and governed 2 billion people (at a rough guess). There were atrocities, wars, economic rip-offs and appalling injustices; that is what ALL empires are about. But there was also the bringing of parliamentary democracy to formerly primitive or autocratic states. There was enormous benefit in terms of medicine, transport and education, the abolition of slavery, the creation of the Commonwealth. Without the empire and the commonwealth it is doubtful that the allies would have won WWII - and a world in which nazism and fascism had triumphed is appalling to even think of: the Jews would have been annihilated, Russian would have been reduced to a slave state - as would Britain. The Empire and its Commonwealth have been a force for enormous good; the evils which it perpetrated were small by comparison. If you don't agree - go read the Wikipedia summary mentioned earlier.
110

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 20:39:59
Meths

Do not pass go.
Do not collect salary.
Mate.
111

Pilrig.,

Livingston 27/01/2008 20:40:45
118 - "Without the empire and commonwealth...Russia would have been reduced to a slave state"

Nonsense. the Third Reich was doomed as soon as the first jackboot trod on Russian soil.
Hitler in 1941 made the same mistake as Napoleon did in 1812.
112

Strathturret,

montrose 27/01/2008 21:11:22
118
Look at the casualty figures for WWII. Britain and US did not defeat Germany, the Russians did. We lost 360k dead, US 330K dead. Russians >20 Million.

Its one of Britains myths. Remember Churchill wrote the history to immortalise himself.
113

 Ayrshire Scot™,

27/01/2008 21:51:04
119. It was AM2 in the dining room with the blunt cut n paste. I win
114

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 22:04:34
122
I'm fortifying Indonesia.
115

 Ayrshire Scot™,

27/01/2008 22:29:40
123

a naive tactical blunder, if I may say so. North America has only 3 point of attack, yet yields 2.5 x more reinforcements than Australasia
116

Highland Mighty,

27/01/2008 22:42:03
Jackie Priest, your astonishing failure to grasp any historical fact is only matched by your unfailing deathgrip-style belief on 'The History of the World According to Alex Salmond'.

Keep it up!
117

Senga Jean,

27/01/2008 22:45:09
The Unionist cause is well served by this anti Scottish bile. Keep the intended or unintended insults coming. You hasten the day of Independence.
118

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 22:53:11
124
But I like nasi goreng.
Nobody gets my nasi goreng.
119

Highland Mighty,

27/01/2008 22:55:58
126. What are you on? Is it prescription?

Ah, just realised who you REALLY are....don't you get bored making up new usernames? You must be on 30+ nowadays!
120

Conan the Librarian™,

27/01/2008 23:11:58
128
Good evening Highland.
Which particular aspect of Scottish Independence shall you be ridiculing tonight?
121

Highland Mighty,

27/01/2008 23:44:36
129, Tonight, conan, I shall be particularly ridiculing the infantile rantings of the nationalist crowd as usual.

What the **** is wrong with you lot? You keep coming up with bizarre complaints about this 'big bad UK' which have no relevance or resemblance on reality!

Scotland isn't perfect but then neither is England (which it surely would be going by the vast sums the nationalists claim they have "stolen" from us).

And here's a news flash from a person who travels far too much for his liking: Ireland is far from perfect either (a rich rich and a poor poor plus lots of EU aid - I'm no beggar and I will not accept taking aid from Europe). As is Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark (pretty countries but with taxes so high, body organs need to be signed over for a coffee). As is the US ("What is this 'public' funding of which you speak?"). And as is the Netherlands (see Scandinavia).

Independence is unnecessary. It is a romantic ideal based on wistful dreams of mist-covered glens and tales of battles from 700 years ago.

We do well out of the UK as an hour's research of this internet gadget will clearly show you. Yes, devolution isn't perfect but it clearly isn't finished yet either. I'm a big fan of the federal system, having seen it in detail on my travels, as it allows states to benefit from their success yet be protected when it all goes wrong.

Take your head our of the early-Middle Ages and bring it into the 21st Century where you will see that 'big is beautiful', whether you like it or not.
122

Winters,

28/01/2008 00:04:22
When Scotland has its independence, all the SNP camp-followers can form a fighting force and rescue the Chessmen. Then there could be a national holiday and they could be carried with ceromony back to Edinburgh where mass crowds could proclaim Alex Salmond, the new Wallace.
123

langtonian,

scotus 28/01/2008 00:46:49
The SNP are observed set to experience an allegorical, "those that live by the word sword, expose themslves to a self inflicted severe wounding by the same weapon"

The SNP nine month sojurn as the party, with First Minister Alex Salmond leading the Scottish Executive suffering from a flawed party manifesto,triumphaly presented 9 month's ago as a "teflon coated" route to many halcyon years of SNP domminance .

Currently they are now exposed to all the media spotlight for the same very reason's they have been castigatting all other parties and people.

Hang on to your hats has to be the message to all SNP voters,it could be a very rough ride for the immediate fore seeable future.
124

Riley Hamish,

Edina 28/01/2008 01:03:25
Ah telt ma faither that the post code wiz wrang, ........but did he listen ????
125

I'mallymax,

upvinesass, scotland. 28/01/2008 03:42:23
Seems to me you've heard just about evrything you need to hear Hodge!

We're taking them back and that's it.
Or would you like another assemblance of arms in the highlands and the lowlands so that that we can come down and kick your ass again?
126

subrosa,

28/01/2008 17:41:01
# 109

Bitter but not twisted I hope.

 

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