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Catholic church moves into Pole position



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Published Date: 25 May 2008
SCOTLAND has become more Roman Catholic than Protestant, with its congregations now outnumbering the Kirk for the first time since records began.
Figures compiled by the independent group Christian Research reveal that in 2005 the number of Catholics who went to Mass surpassed those who attended Church of Scotland services.

A total of 215,000 Catholics went to church, compared with only 20
8,400 attending the Church of Scotland.

Attendances at both churches – and all other Christian denominations – are falling however, and the group predicts that by 2010, the number of Scots going to church on a Sunday will fall below 10% of the population for the first time from 751,100 in 1990 to 457,600 in 2015.

The change is due to the huge numbers of Catholic Polish immigrants who are boosting church attendance, raising numbers by some 50,000 people since the last time figures were published in 2002.

A spokesman for the Catholic Church said: "There are now more masses being said in Polish than in Gaelic in Scotland. At St Mary's Cathedral in Edinburgh, there are two Polish masses every Sunday. It has made a significant difference."

He claimed that the Polish-inspired revival was now boosting the Church in other areas. "In terms of vocations to the priesthood, we hit rock bottom a few years ago when we had only about four or five men training to become priests. Now there are 15 or 16."

Meanwhile, without such outside support and with an increasingly ageing membership, attendance at the Church of Scotland is now declining rapidly, Christian Research suggests.

It concludes that by 2015, only 145,700 Scots will go to church on an average Sunday. As recently as 1990, that figure would have been 320,800.

A spokesman for the Church of Scotland said: " We have half a million members and returns from congregations provided prior to last week's General Assembly found that there are at least 100,000 people involved in the life of the Church who are not included within the formal membership. Throughout the country, individual members and congregations as a whole continue to play an essential part in their local communities.

"If the attendance figures reported are accurate then it appears the wide tradition of Christian worship in Scotland is set to remain strong – continuing to dwarf the combined attendance of weekend football matches for example."

Christian Research is part of the Bible Society and its research is recognised as the most authoritative snapshot of religious observance in the country. The figures were part of a major UK wide survey of Church attendance, which found that pews are emptying at an accelerating rate around Britain as a whole.

Benita Hewitt, director of Christian Research, said: "The figures in Scotland have been changed since 2002 to reflect the numbers of Poles coming into Scotland."

The figures show that the total number of people attending a Christian place of worship is in decline. In 1990, 14.7% of Scots went to church. By 2015, Christian Research expects that figure to have dropped to 8.9%. However, Scotland is still the most religious part of the UK. While total church attendance in Scotland for 2010 will be 9.9%, in England it will be only 5.5%. In Wales, the figure will be 5.8%. Figures for Northern Ireland were not available.

Attendances at other Presbyterian churches are set to fall from 20,300 in 2015 to 18,000 in 2015. Baptist church attendance will fall from 24,000 to 23,200 over the same period. Episcopal church attendance will fall marginally from 18,500 to 18,000.

The only churches to witness an increase in attendance will be independent churches, which include the popular evangelical wing. Attendance will rise from 45,800 in 2005 to 49,700 in 2015.



The full article contains 644 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 May 2008 12:08 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Roman Catholic church
 
1

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 00:39:28
Been to CofS, RC and CofE services, as well as ecumenical ones, and find them all boring.

I pay my respects privately.
2

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 25/05/2008 01:23:08
And those who lives their lives without religion form about one-third of the population - and rising.

"Throughout the country, individual members and congregations as a whole continue to play an essential part in their local communities."

Throughout the country, individual atheists, agnostics and Humanists continue to play an essential part in their local communities.
3

,

25/05/2008 01:31:54
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4

Tiree,

Vancouver BC 25/05/2008 01:45:04
#1.
Jock, Christians believe that Christ formed a Church and a Christian community. And, if we are to believe the teaching of the Apostles, He mandated that we were to worship (break bread) together, and do this in His memory.
Yes, I agree with you, it can be boring sometimes, but I know from personal experience that when I don't go in fellowship to worship I neglect my prayer life, I get caught up in the affairs of the world, and I give little thought to my Creator, my God.
I find St. John's Gospel to be the most incredible piece of writing - bar none. In 2000 years it has withstood the attacks of cynics, agnostics, atheists and anyone else who has attacked its composition. The words of the Last Discourse of Jesus - Chapters 14 through 17 are an incredible piece of literature, as well as a remarkable promise.
And, I know personally, that it has helped me through unimaginable difficulties and distress. I didn't always feel this way, but I can only speak to what the power of it has done for me.
Usually, when I find that there is a problem - the problem is me. I need a dose of humility and compassion for those who are a whole lot worse off than myself.
What the Gospels have taught me is that we are all brothers and sisters, regardless of race, color, creed, religion. I believe this with all my heart. And, in doing so, I think that it has made me a little better as a person; and hopefully, I can leave this world a little better than I found it - in spite of my weaknesses.
Peace,
Tiree
5

doublescotch,

U.S.A. 25/05/2008 02:57:02
#4 I love St. John's Gospel. It is the most Gnostic of the Gospels and the true Communion is where Jesus washes the feet of his Apostles. My father always said the Body of Christ was for everyone. Bless you.
6

brian mcc,

the arctic 25/05/2008 03:19:02
'Figures fron N. Ireland were not available.'
The results would skew the equation.
My God is better than yours.

7

celtic4,

USA 25/05/2008 04:31:32
Catholics are Christians too. Altho I am not a Catholic, I respect their right to choose their faith. I,too, do my reverence to God in private. I have not found a church yet, in this town, that goes strictly by Biblical teaching. It is all doctrine designated by some church council. It is not the way I was raised, and I cannot abide it. More power, however, to those who chose church. I think maybe that is the reason or one of them why there's so much violence in my country.
8

Guga II,

Rockall 25/05/2008 06:02:12
The way that Maggie Broon and the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party are rapidly taking the whole country down the tubes, all these Polish and other European immigrants will be heading for home fairly soon.

With food price increases reaching 32%, and fuel at £1.37.9 a litre (and rising), they are going to find out that they are better off at home.

This is assuming that Maggie Broon hasn't had the whole population arrested as terrorists before too much longer.
9

Damy Ruby,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 06:05:10
I was brought up in a small rural village of 350 people and the church was a major part of the social scene with the church hall being used for badminton classes, carpet bowls etc. etc. Three miles away there was another village of the about the same size and with exactly the same social community and its own church. A few years ago the C of S decided that they only needed one church between the two villages and despite protests went ahead and sold of church one and forced those who still wanted to attend a place of worship to find the transport every Sunday morning to attend Church 2. As was predicted the numbers just dwindled and it’s the C oaf S who have driven those faithful away. If you multiply this same irresponsible action all the way round the rural villages in Scotland and its hardly surprisng the numbers are reducing.

10

,

25/05/2008 07:15:18
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11

donald,

glasgow 25/05/2008 07:15:34
Do churhmen like Pole dancing?
12

donald,

glasgow 25/05/2008 07:15:50
Should be Churchmen.
13

deeks rearend,

25/05/2008 07:46:24
if the 150,000 sash signing rangers supports all went to their church ,then it would be game on for both businesses .sorry churches
14

,

25/05/2008 07:47:11
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15

deeks rearend,

25/05/2008 07:47:42
donald is your last name findle
16

deeks rearend,

25/05/2008 07:47:52
findly
17

deeks rearend,

25/05/2008 07:48:28
donald do you sometimes hang about the high courts ?
18

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 25/05/2008 07:58:53
Donald, whaur's yer troosers?
19

Garry Otton,

SCOTTISH MEDIA MONITOR com 25/05/2008 08:12:55
I like the way Christian Research is described as 'independent'. 10% going to Church! You're having a laugh!

With Alex Salmond promising more sectarian schools and Islamic schools (Sunni, Shi'ah.. he didn't say), religious privilege is safe with politicians.
20

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 25/05/2008 08:20:10
Re #2 "Throughout the country, individual atheists, agnostics and Humanists continue to play an essential part in their local communities."

And Pagans. Most people in Scotland live by the values of the old religion, even if if very few actually practice it.
21

kpm,

unsworth 25/05/2008 08:49:28
Thank God Im an Athiest.
22

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 25/05/2008 08:50:04
I can understand the need for an eye-catching headline but surely the real story here is 'Tiny minority cling to medieval beliefs while the rest of the country moves on'.

23

eric,

25/05/2008 09:22:33
Im not into any of them .my mum was rc but stopped attending in 80s when they were dragging preists out for child abuse,she never went back,i respect rc or any of them i just dont think the leader of the rc church should be involved in politics or any church,
they should just stick to what they know and churchy hings like death and weddings etc etc.
24

St. Brendan,

I wish you were here 25/05/2008 09:28:49
#4 Tiree:
"Usually, when I find that there is a problem - the problem is me." should read:
Usually, when I find that there is a problem - the problem is me being religious.

#7 Celtic4:
"... why there's so much violence in my country."

Statistics is available to show that higher rate of religious adherence gives higher level of violent crimes:

http://www.thearda.com/mapsReports/maps/map.asp?alpha=0&variable=603&state=101&variable2=616&GRP=1&Var2=616

25

thinking,

Scotland 25/05/2008 09:29:49
#4 well said
#7 'I have not found a church yet, in this town, that goes strictly by Biblical teaching'
If by this you mean is there a Church that has the same organisation as in the Bible, then yes ,there is. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is organised the same, with a Prophet, Apostles etc. Try this website
http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/
26

St. Brendan,

I wish you were here. 25/05/2008 09:37:50
#25 thinking:

God was an atheist.
27

Quiksilver,

London 25/05/2008 09:44:18
The most worrying aspect is the one the report seems to have intentionally ignored - that Islam is the fastest growing 'religion' in the UK, Scotland (currently) included. And arch-traitor Salmond wants to build a mosque for them! Unreal.


28

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 25/05/2008 10:07:45
#2 well said

#4 fundamentalism eh

#25 everyone knows you're a mormon
29

psycho,

edinburgh 25/05/2008 10:13:08
I attend Mass on a regular basis and I really appreciate all it represents to me: I respect the fact that others do not share this appreciation.I have spent most of my working life as a mental health specialist encouraging clients to examine solution to the life problems which confront them and a spiritual approach has often produced lasting results.
30

ddmc,

25/05/2008 10:24:13
#22 LOL, religion is so 19th century :)
31

Mcsnagpile,

25/05/2008 10:34:52
It is comforting to rattle the drum, ring the bell and send a few dollars up to gramps.
It is relaxing to have a sanctuary in your home or garden where you can talk to the White Tiger. Whipping up excitement on who goes where on what day seems a bit dated.
The Poles will be here today and gone tomorrow.
Of course statistics for NI is withheld in the interests of national security.
32

,

25/05/2008 10:36:15
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33

davieboy144,

paisley 25/05/2008 10:39:37
I would treat this piece of "research" with a very large grain of salt.

While I do not doubt the the number of RC's in Scotland has risen due to immigration there is no evidence that they are quing around the block to get into more than a few Churches.

This report also caused a stushie in England last week with Benita Hewitt being shown to use skewed data. i.e. People were asked about going to church on Sunday but not taking into account regular attendees or people who go on other days.

Ruth Gledhill of The Times has a better handle on it

http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2008/05/latest-religiou.html
34

,

25/05/2008 10:41:46
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35

albanman,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 10:54:24
#25 Come on. Mormonism is biblical? That's a laugh!

Here are some of your beliefs that most non-Mormons have no clue about: (a)The Heavenly Father was once a human being and has several wives (b) There are lots of gods in the Universe (c)Satan is the brother of Jesus...I really like that one (d) We were all spirit children who agreed to come to Earth to be tested (e) If a Mormon man strictly obeys all the Mormon precepts he will become a god and rule a part of the Universe, having endless spirit children by his wife/wives. Where are these teachings found in the Judeo-Christian scriptures? Nowhere.

Let's not even begin to talk about the plagiarism in the Book of Mormon (supposedly written almost 2000 years ago, but with chunks taken from Shakespeare and other writings)or the ridiculous explanation as to what happened to the golden plates on which the Book was supposedly written; or the Mormon belief in multiple wives, which was conveniently dropped (sorry, the Mormon President/Prophet received a revelation)so as to allow Utah into the Union. Give me a break.

Here's another website: www.exmormon.org
36

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 25/05/2008 11:03:06
I am glad #27 raised the very valid point about Islam. It will soon totally overtake the numbers of all Christian churches/sects put together. I wonder why it has such tremendous appeal considering the same God is worshipped by Muslims,Christians and Jews alike.I think I am right in saying that Muslims and jews recognise Christ as a prophet but not as the Messiah which is the only sticking point.. In other words not a great deal of difference between them all so why is Islam the flavour of the month and not the others ?
37

leith keely,

edinburgh 25/05/2008 11:08:47
all i can say is thank god i`m an athiest.
38

albanman,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 11:10:45
Sorry about my rant in #35, but I don't suffer Mormonism lightly; it claims to be something it is not.

As to the article: more power to the Catholics whose leaders at least aren't afraid to say what they believe (unlike the Reformed Kirk which changes with the wind). I don't agree with some of what Catholicism pushes (e.g. no women ordained, no gay marriage, no artficial contraception), but having read material written by Catholics (as opposed to newspaper blurbs or evangelical tracts) I know that Catholicism has a rich and beautiful teaching regarding the sacredness of life, the origins of the Universe(it holds with evolution) and that its services can be quite beautiful, incorporating all the senses. Every religion has its dark moments, simply because it is composed of human beings; but that doesn't negate the beauty and truth that lies at the core. Although, I'm not a church goer, I have great respect for those who have faith, so long as they respect and value those who have none.
39

westview,

superstion free zone 25/05/2008 12:25:06
I read yesterday that many of the councils in England are now saving council tax cash by refusing to fund the free bus service that pupils attending faith schools enjoy. Now that the tide of superstion in Scotland is evaporating ,can we please have the same ,sane, policy here? Except for worshipers of the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster'. (Google it ). They are increasing in numbers every where
40

Calum Crubag,

25/05/2008 12:28:24
#13 - true, if Rangers' good proddies went to church more than fitba, it might make a difference.

However, good news that church attendence is falling.Is there any reason therefore for faith schools and religious observance in state schools?

Children should learn ABOUT different faiths but should not have one faith pumped into their heads from a young age. Teach them to think not to follow mindless superstition.
41

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 25/05/2008 12:32:03
Re #32 : If Champions of Europe can detect sour grapes, they certainly aren't mine. I'm glad that most people here live by Pagan values, as they're the basis of our liberal, tolerant society.
42

Nellie,

Liverpool 25/05/2008 12:32:12
#4 A few thoughts for ye.

1 Jesus didn't say that church services should be boring.
2 He didn't say which species one should break bread with - could be pigeons
3 He didn't say the "church" should be a building.

My "church" is anywhere I fancy it, be that in my house or - more probably - somewhere in nature, like a wood. It may even be in a church building, but not usually during a service! And I "break bread" with any of "God's" creatures - birds, bees, mice and rats, dogs and cats, and even humans on rare occasions.
43

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 25/05/2008 12:51:05
donald from Glasgow

I fail to see why you corrected the spelling of your feeble post.

The joke is TOO, TOO easy and not funny at all.

Perhaps you could be more positive and "contributary" and post something that actually SAYS something.

It may improve your reputation on this site.

I do this in a caring and sharing way because one would not want to think you "stupid".
44

Garry Otton,

SCOTTISH MEDIA MONITOR com 25/05/2008 13:08:07
I thought an act of faith, like praying, was offered up on a voluntary basis. So why do we force it upon children of school age? And it doesn't stop there... Why does the BBC News have to be interrupted by the half-baked opinions of religionists? 'Thought for the Day' they call this blatant piece of religious proselytising. Hardly experts in their subject are they?!
45

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 25/05/2008 13:12:50
#41 Black Douglas

When you eventually decide to travel around the world, you will be pleasantly surprised to find that most ordinarty people just want to get on and live their lives in modest comfort, with dignity and respect. That includes muslims. I know many muslims from around the world (Europe, Asia and Middle East) and they have all been good people who have shown kindness and respect to me.

Whilst most organised religions have an unpleasant side, and Scotland must be able to claim a high league placing when it comes to intolerance of others religious beliefs. But you have got to be able to divorce the rantings of a Cardinal, Cleric or Church Elder from ordinary people choosing to find comfort in their own lives from faith and belief. You cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

As for those who let children starve to death, I assume that you are referring to George Bush and Tony Blair who steadfastly maintained economic sanctions against Iraq throughout the 1990s and early part of this decade, causing millions of people to go without access to basic medical care and food supplies. Being good Christians, they did manage to be selective in their sanctions and only enforced those that killed the people. Bush and Blair allowed Saddam to secretly sell oil to the US's friend and ally, Jordan, throughout this period.

As long as people like Blair and Bush go about telling me that God guided them in their path of murdering hundreds of thousand of innocent Iraqi men, woman and children in a time of supposed peace (in the name of freedom loving people lol), then I cannot see how any Christian is in a place where they can throw stones at other faiths for not being up to scratch.

None of the organised religions has any more merit than others. That includes Buddhismm, which I see as having infinitely beter traits than other religions but still with serious flaws such as the belief that very bad deeds can be mended by giving a little sum of money
46

Buck Rogers,

in the 25th Century 25/05/2008 13:15:26
#46 continued

p.s.

Ah, the Chinese and their love of money. On second thoughts, maybe they HAVE created the one true and honest organised religion that we in the west can all happily identify with!
47

monkey man,

25/05/2008 13:42:54
Roman Catholicism is on the increase in Scotland....as are the crime figures and the dumbing down of our society. Do we see a correlation, children.?
48

catgut,

pomona 25/05/2008 13:46:05
that makes 4.5million secularists/others. so why do we allow the tiny minority of practising christians to get so much say?
49

Endangeredscot,

25/05/2008 14:25:47
25 thinking,Scotland

A church that believes Jesus Christ appeared to native Americans who slaughtered each other and left their 'writings' in 'reformed-Egyptian' in a book made out of gold found by a treasure hunter in the 1800s who was well known as a ne'er-do-well and fraudster. Said book then mysteriously taken up to heaven when revivalist-fevered populace demanded to see it.

Pul-leease!
50

monkey man,

25/05/2008 14:38:10
We have terrible religious bigotry in the West Of Scotland due to the institutionalised sectarian apartheid in our education system.

The isolated Roman Catholic school system just doesn't work either as only one of their schools appears in the top 50 of the best academic establishments in Scotland.
51

Mary Ann Fraser, of Lovat, Sawant,

25/05/2008 15:00:33
I find this article particularly in times. Especially since the Royal plate artifacts of Queen Saint Margaret and King Malcolm III, Can more will be returned to Scotland via my friends at Buckingham palace. There is no date set as of now for them to be returned, but the first to be returned will be the reliquary of King David 1, as it is a shrine which I cannot keep or sell. It also amazing how the Polish are stepping into the country more now in numbers, especially since it was a Polish garrision back in 1830 who found these treasures hidden behind the wainscott of the cabinet at Edinburgh castle.

http://www.myspace.com/therealhistoryofscotland

No doubt the return of these treasures back to Scotland, will bring in even more folks back to the old faith.
52

SmartScotUSA,

Mt Pleasant, MI 25/05/2008 15:28:55
Monkey man-
what have you been drinking? The overall message was that religious practice in Scotland is FALLING, so the argument of increasing crime and ignorance would better correlate to that fact. If you want to make a defensible and arguable position, you would have to look at the different groups to see what the trends for crime, etc are compared to the national average and other groups.
The answer to all the other rants about 'why to continue school holidays, etc. when formal religious practitioners are a minority?' is the concept of basic human freedom. Did all the Scots that believed in freedom to practice religion migrate to the U.S. 250 years ago, and left behind all the religious intolerants?
53

Jaggy,

25/05/2008 15:44:48
#49 ..... I soooooo agree with you. Organised religion is a blight on society.
54

Endangeredscot,

25/05/2008 15:48:49
52 Mary Ann Fraser, of Lovat, Sawant

Whit????
55

Geoff,

sa 25/05/2008 15:51:46
21 kpm-and I swear there ain't no heaven but pray there ain't no hell!
56

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 15:55:24
#51 Monkeyman....... The British act of settlement 1701 is an anti- Roman Catholic piece of legislation. It tells us that Britains Catholics are 2nd or 3rd class citizens. So! why bother educating all of the children together if before they go to school in the first place they are classed as being different.Sectarianism in the west of Scotland is perpetuated by state sponsored sectarianism in the form of the act of settlement. If the west of Scotland's orangemen are happy to maintain this sorry piece of bigotry,then they should be more than prepared to sponsor the Catholic school system via their taxes. I am sure that Scotland's Catholics thank them for their tax monies.
57

Geoff,

sa 25/05/2008 15:57:41
32 Champions..."I think this latest poll puts to bed for all time the theory that Scotland is a prod country"
Shouldn't that be"latest Pole..." :)
58

,

25/05/2008 16:08:06
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59

monkey man,

25/05/2008 16:14:53
Roman Catholicism is a political ideology, not a credible religious belief, therefore it is incompatible with any link to The Monarchy and is righfully barred.

As for the Orange Order, anyone who opposes this public expression of faith is of course a bigot, so i'll invite you all down to Glasgow for the cultural songs and festivities. You are all most welcome. lol
60

monkey man,

25/05/2008 16:28:35
Abu- #57

Maybe you're right about keeping RC schools out of the mainstream of the non-denoms.

That only one RC school can make the top fifty in Scotland clearly shows they don't have the intellectual prowess to add anything substantial to the mix. lol



61

,

25/05/2008 16:43:27
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62

monkey man,

25/05/2008 16:50:11
#62

You seem a bit aerated about something, so calm down.!. lol

As for The Orange, if you go to its Scottish website you'll see it is growing due to the influx of the newly-arived Protestant evangelical immigrants from Africa.

As for bigotry,I warmly extend the hand of friendship and cordially invite you to our Annual Demonstration in Glasgow in July. There will be more than 900 bands participating and with crowds of tens of thousands thronging the streets of the city it'll be a grand day.!

Did you know that GCC also helps us fund the Big Day Out.?
63

Stuart Hartill,

Isle of Man 25/05/2008 17:15:07
So the second biggest institution dying on its feet from sheer inability to engage with the real world and the biggest have changed places.
Sorry, was there a story in there somewhere?
64

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 17:17:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

Read and learn, all bigots and ignoramuses.
65

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 17:21:07
Re 65. This is what I have constantly said about religious education being a real subject in the national curriculum in schools. Teach the children about ALL religions.

66

,

25/05/2008 17:33:12
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67

Tiree,

Vancouver BC 25/05/2008 18:13:02
I believe that anyone who worships God and follows their conscience is acceptable to God whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jew, Sikh, and Hindu, Buddhist – or any other – or have no religion.

No one can pick the color of their skin, their parents, their race, or their country of origin.
I have met many people in my life; some from the aforementioned religions, some with no particular religion. Many of these were, and are, very good living people.

We meet many others who, for many reasons, have a bias, intolerance or even an intense hatred against any religion.

This particular article was concerning Christian Church attendance and I gave my views on it. If I want to give my thoughts on Shakespeare, or Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, or Buddha, for example, it would be a good idea to read reliable sources.

It’s not about religion per se; it’s about the teachings behind the religion. Catholics and Protestants have more in common than differences. The Bible, especially the New Testament Gospels and Letters give a first hand account on the teachings of Jesus Christ. To write off Jesus’ teachings because of some preacher is as ridiculous as writing off mathematics because someone taught faulty arithmetic.

If I want to express a reasonable opinion about Christianity I should at least have read a creditable version of the Gospels in the New Testament and not just believe everything I hear from writers with an axe to grind. By creditable, I mean those that are recognized as proper and approved translations from the original documents. For example: The New International Version of the New Testament; The New Revised Standard Edition; The King James Version; The New American Bible.

I would then at least have an informed view on Christianity. Who Jesus is for Christians and what it means to be a follower. Whether Church attendance drops or not can never take away anything from the incredible life and teachings of this man. And why so many millions have been, and st
68

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 18:37:24
Wonder if St. Ruth is the patron saint of blasphemy.
Wonder if St. Ranger is the patron saint of xenophobia.

Wonder why my middle name is Matthew.
69

BK,

Cyberspace 25/05/2008 18:38:10
"Catholic church moves into Pole position"
Literally, since there has been a big boost in its membership from immigrant Poles. In any case it's not the first time since records begun, it's the first since the reformation, but history or accuracy have never been strong points with journalists.
70

Calum Crubag,

25/05/2008 19:15:09
Monkey Man - Orange Order are as bad as the Catholic Church. If you want to split dark age superstitious hairs then marching publicly under huge banners of King Billy is just as 'anti-Christ' as having the Pope as the head of the church. And, isn't the Queen, whose pic is everywhere, the 'defender of the faith'.

If you worship Jesus, stay at home or in church and fkn well pray. Keep it off the streets and out of fitba.
71

Endangeredscot,

25/05/2008 19:25:56
Tiree said: " New Testament Gospels and Letters give a first hand account on the teachings of Jesus Christ."

No they are not first hand at all, that is a myth that comes from the belief the actual apostles wrote them. They did not. They were written long after they were dead and buried.
72

radge dug,

25/05/2008 19:27:19
Religion is brain death. Stop ALL religious 'observance' (brainwashing) in Scotland's schools.
73

monkey man,

25/05/2008 19:33:26
*Please enter your comment*

The so called RC Church "ethos" which it claims makes its schools unique only ensures that the children in its "care" are educationally-subnormal as the Scottish tables show.

That Scottish prisons are also overflowing with RC's in ratio to per head of the Scottish population is also telling.

Not a very good advert for a RC education is it.?
74

monkey man,

25/05/2008 19:35:34
#67

"Champions" appears to be living proof of his RC "education." lol
75

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 25/05/2008 19:42:18
Donald Glasgow
You act the size of you shoe,as opposed to your age, ether that you are just an ignoramus,did you ever learn anything throught your life,or is this just normality for you to act this way.
If you can respond with a cival answer please keep your thought's to yourself, I'm sure the other readers would appreciate it too.
76

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 25/05/2008 20:12:10
# 74 So what you are saying here is that the level of education for R C is subnormal, Why would you say something like that when it's so untrue,do you as an individual have the brains to be come a priest.
I didn't think so, priest are very well educated men,that give up their lives for God,by helping others ( IRRESPECT OF RELIGION, OR COLOUR ) the world over, so how about you then my friend,if you ever feel in need of anything,please feel free go knock on the door of ther nearest chaple,and ask the priest for help,I'm sure he would be only to happy assist you in what every way he could,or point to in the right direction where you could get help.
May God bless you in your jurney through life,keep you under his wing and protect you from harm.
He will even kneel with you and pray with you for help for the God, I think you would find this new experence very rewarding.
Please feel free to reply, I would like to kneel and pray with you, if you like maybe by this it would remove any ill feeling from your mind.
PS And that wouldn't be the so called R C Church, that's what it is,their is no so called here.
77

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 20:13:28
Prejudice against the RC church - as opposed to the literal meaning of the word catholic - dates back to one English King. A Certain Henry VIII.

Up until then the Pope was akin to the house of lords. While the Roman empire was continuing throughout Europe in an altered form, it also kept kings in check.

Christian religion and politics were inseperable. Indeed, even today we have Ministers of State.

Ministers?

And all because the Lady liked Henry.
78

Thistledhu,

25/05/2008 20:15:39
what church anyone goes to is there buisness and theres alone.

Mind you clever way to spin the real headline that all churches are in terminal decline
79

Joseph Bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 20:21:01
Scotland has given more to the scientific community in general than any other nation as in penicillin the tv phones tarmacadum to the 1st cloned mammal and so much more.
Freethinkers are needed not religious more zealots from somewere in Italy that refused to believe the earth rotated the sun and actually burned people for saying or believing it.
Forward into the 21st century not back to the dark dark middle ages.
80

monkey man,

25/05/2008 20:34:12
#77

Thanks for the offer, Stevie...but anyone from a cult I'd rather were in front of me than behind. lol

81

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 20:34:55
You see the real cause of religious bigotry in Scotland is derived from the root of power. That is politics.

Westminster to be more precise.

The royal family and the Church of England are so tied up with an attitude, enshrined in Westminster law, which is so against the ancient imperialism of Rome that the majority of this country have lost the plot.

In the west of Scotland this manifests itself in the political form of Ireland v England. How laughable when one considers that the Church of England is also a catholic church. Considering the extent of the empire, one can understand the English antipathy towards Rome.

However, the Poles are not Roman Catholic - they are catholic.
82

westview,

25/05/2008 20:37:11
Sorry *77* , you seem a decent person with deeply held beliefs ,but after the news of all the sex scandles involving priests that has come to light recently I would advise folk not to let priests anywhere near their children unaccompanied. Just to make it fair ,this also goes for salesmen of other religions .
83

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 20:59:16
How's this for a back to the future suggestion?

We establish a Pantheon in every town and village in Scotland.
84

Jock Tamson,

At the Pantheon 25/05/2008 21:12:20
Wow, folks, this Pantheon is buzzing, 24/7. They all have a day of rest and a day of worship.

Thank God they all worship on different days.

Weddings and flinging bathwater over your baby are oversubscribed at the moment but we are working on this.
85

CharlesStuart,

Buenos Aires 25/05/2008 21:15:16
Speaking about atheists or agnostics, I would like to tell you how the greatest Argentinean writer of the XX Century died in Geneva, he was most of his life a combative agnostic, but as his wife and doctor said during an interview, they told to a British scholar “In spite of Borges’ supposed agnosticism, his works are a call to the Infinite, and when one convokes the Infinite, one convokes God. And on his death’s eve they prayed together the Our Father in Anglo Saxon an order of his English Godmother, though it be. It is not a question of belief or non believe...
He was an agnostic. But his mother had also begged him the Our Father. Before he died I told him there were subjects on whom I could not speak, since I had no religious formation, but I asked if he would like a priest, so as to talk things over with him. Borges then said: "What you mean is: do I need a priest?" I answered: "No. Only if you want to talk with him on those items I cannot". It was then that he said: "OK call right away a Catholic one, so I can’t talk about God with him..."
But they call a well know Catholic priest and a Lutheran pastor as well. This is the reason why, when he died, there was an ecumenical celebration, with a catholic and a protestant priest. The Catholic priest gave him the last sacraments of the Church with his consent. Even years earlier one of his best friends, a well know Catholic theologian said Borges is an agnostic, just to “épater le bourgeois”, or in English "You must shock the Bourgeois " Borges used the same phrase, whose author was another quasi agnostic the great poet, which scandalized Paris in his times, and received the communion before he died, this was the wonderful Charles Baudelaire.
Oscar Wilde was another case, after so many pains arising from his loses and tragedies, he died as he was born a Christina more precise a Catholic. So at the end when it is the time for our departure of life, many not all agnostics, they choose to believe, push by the hope
86

Jock Tamson,

At the Pantheon - take 2 25/05/2008 21:36:24
Wow folks, this Pantheon is buzzing 24/7. They all have a day of rest and a day of worship.

Thank God they all worship on different days. That's flexibility for you. Isn't God wonderful?

Weddings and legally flinging bathwater over your babies are oversubscribed at the moment.

Pantheon recommends that all Presbyterians abandon the condom.
87

Jock Tamson,

At the Pantheon 25/05/2008 21:41:10
Get ye behind me, condom.

Oh dear, that is not what I meant.
88

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 25/05/2008 21:52:55
#83 Thanks for the kind words,but it would seem very unfair to class everyone the same,if you know what I mean,and I'm sure you do, no doubt their has been a few individuals that have commited a very serious crime,and your right it's not only priests that have did terrible things like you say,men of the cloth from other religions have also commited offences like child abouse,but forgive if I'm wrong,it seems when their is a priest involved everyone points the finger,saying see here's another priest doing the same as the other one.
Please I'm ((( NOT DEFENDING THEM IN ANY WAY ))) But it's when Father ????????? did to a child,can you see what I mean, sorry to go on.
89

Jock Tamson,

The Pantheon 25/05/2008 21:59:35
Stevie, Glasvegas. You are so transparent.
90

monkey man,

25/05/2008 22:14:47
END SECTARIAN APARTHEID NOW.!
91

Jock Tamson,

Still at the Pantheon 25/05/2008 22:29:45
91 monkey man, do you mean get yer heids together? I'll go along with that.

Togetherheid is better than apartheid.
92

Tiree,

25/05/2008 22:37:54
72 Endangeredscot
#72
Tiree said: " New Testament Gospels and Letters give a first hand account on the teachings of Jesus Christ."
No they are not first hand at all, that is a myth that comes from the belief the actual apostles wrote them. They did not. They were written long after they were dead and buried.
----------------------------------------------------
This is not the case. They were written by disciples of the Apostles. Read the Biblical commentaries of some renowned Scottish theologians such as Wm. Barclay.
Wm.Baillie for a start. Read Barth; Bultman and many experts on Biblical criticism. Read the Penguin Classic on"The Earl Church Fathers." Paul's letters were probably the first circa 60 A.D. while some of the Apostles were still living. Luke, who was a fellow traveller with Paul was living then. John, a disciple of the Apostle John, got his material first hand. Sorry, no myth. Just as John said in his Gospel, quoting Jesus in Ch 14:25-26 "I have said these things while I am still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all that I have said to you."
John was exiled to Patmos and was still alive circa 90 A.D.
Peace,
Tiree
93

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 25/05/2008 22:39:43
91 monkey man..........as a Scottish Protestant I object to your blatant anti Catholic bigotry.It is people such as you who are creating the sectarianism in our country.
I and most Scottish Protestants believe that Catholics, Jews and Anglicans have the right to their own form of schooling. As far as I am aware ,the Catholic schooling system is one of the best in the world.I know that it is also true that many thousands of other faiths attend Catholic schools.

What is your problem with Catholics? Do you have a problem,or are you just one of those "blast from the past" biblical bigots who just hate Catholics because your soul is poisoned with hatred and bigotry? Why can't you just grow up and accept the fact that our Catholic neighbours are equal citizens in our country and that they have every right to have their own schools. There does not seem to be a problem in England with the Catholic schooling system,or America or France ,Sweden Germany or any other country in the world except Scotland,where we have your type of hate filled bigotry. Scotland does not want you or your kind, so do us all a favour and please leave. I bet you did'nt attend any church service this morning,true to form.
94

Jock Tamson,

The Pantheon 25/05/2008 22:41:28
Oh, Tiree.

There is a life outwith the bible.

And never forget that life is dangerous to your health and leads to death in all cases.
95

jerrymanders,

25/05/2008 22:42:29
Let's hope this is an end to "comprehensives". These schools are nothing but protestant out posts. I went to one. 500 protestants, 25 Catholics. Terrible.
96

Jock Tamson,

The Pantheon 25/05/2008 22:49:47
I'll put it another way, Tiree.

I go through my life with my own recognition of right and wrong. I do not try to hurt people. This is inane. Get my drift?

Dogmatic repetition of ancient gospels is a turn off. Preaching is a turn off.

Get my drift?

And I am not Galactic Cannibal.
97

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 22:55:14
Dear Lord
98

Jock Tamson,

Dear Lord 25/05/2008 22:56:03
Please
99

Jock Tamson,

Dear Lord 25/05/2008 22:56:27
Please
100

Jock Tamson,

The Pantheon 25/05/2008 22:57:49
Thank you. See? Even the Lord suffers the little children.
101

,

25/05/2008 23:03:48
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102

,

25/05/2008 23:08:44
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103

Scottish Quine,

Portlethen 25/05/2008 23:15:43
Everyone is entitled to believe in what they wish, as long as they don't try and ram it down other people's throats. Religion is to blame for so much crap going on in the world, it's such a shame we can't just let each other get on with it. Unfortunately religion matters to so many other people that they would rather purposively inflict it on others than let them have their own independent thoughts on religion and God. Religious beliefs will be the downfall of too many. The sooner the Muslims realise that we are not interested in their beliefs and the sooner they realise they should stop trying to forcibly make us belief, the better.
104

Jock Tamson,

The Pantheon 25/05/2008 23:36:13
Don't want to depress all you folks but I watched my father die of old age. Organ failure as it is otherwise known. Carphology kicked in at the end and I likened it to being as the biblical analogy to being like a child before entering the kingdom of heaven.

As far as I am concerned the bible is nothing more than a civic version of the highway code. Life for Dummies, if you like or not.

Same goes for the Koran
105

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/05/2008 23:54:09
Anyway, on topic. God bless the Poles.

I grew up with the second generation of them in Perth after the war. Perth cemetary still has the Polish memorial crosses in prime position as you enter. A fitting tribute to a persecuted nation.

Come on ye Poles.
106

Joseph Bloggs,

Edinburgh 26/05/2008 00:24:07
Faith is governed by 4 constants.

PLACE = Where you were Born.
TIME = When you were Born.
ENVIRONMENT = Into what kind of region/community/what religious views(if any)your mother and father were and how strongly said beliefs are.
POLITICS = How your politics are dictated.

I would like to say that it dismays me to see so called Christians to berate each other then play the New bigotry card. Before Jack the Mac Scotlands ex WORST Minister breathed life into this terminally ill dinosaur i had the fortune to watch sectarianism (in the mainstream of Scottish society) wither and die into glowing embers.Roman Catholics best mates with Protestants WOW you had to whisper about it it was so new and fragile.. BIGOTRY .. Was it dead ? (apart from certain football(soccer)ground's) Unfortunately not why? because since that bitter little man blew his filthy fire accellerant breath on those dying embers and lit the bonfire which lit the back to bigotry campain its back behind the sectarian parapets fighting for the moral high ground.
NEWSFLASH None of the Celtic/Ranger persuasion own though celtic think they do (think again! how can the vatican hold any moral high ground?) its your fellow Scots you 2 are fighting ...open your eyes.....THINK.
The bigotry card is like the joker in the pack it is only used as a last resort when you cant use nothing else,its a weak card for a weak mind how can you call someone a pap ish ba ssa and then play it? How can you call someone a dirty orange pro ddie cur rant bun and then play it? THINK.
All i see for this anti bigotry campaign is colder relations between the communities viewed with suspicion and hatred for each other worse than when i can ever remember.
What do the two communities hope for?
Can someone from the Catholic side please try and tell us what they want ?
The same question to the Protestants what do you and your community want?
Is their an answer as all i can see is 2 sets of Scots that hate each
107

McHoot,

Brisbane 26/05/2008 00:25:44
Maybe it's time to bring the Stuarts back? Then they could close (or is it open?) the lion gates at Traquair House. Or perhaps a wee bit burning at the stake for heretics?
108

Tris,

26/05/2008 00:32:12

#27


I'm really glad you're in London and not Scotland.

109

monkey man,

26/05/2008 00:40:37
#94 & #103

Yes, you've got me bang to rights as I really am as an appalling "bigot" for wishing to see children of all faiths and none, and of all races and creeds, being educated together everyday in the same classroom.

I'll get my KKK hood pressed and ironed for tomorrows cross-burning. lol

From both your views I can only summise that if separation and apartheid in our Scottish education system is legitimate due to religious belief then you would have no objection but also support and uphold the "right" for separate schools on the basis of skin colour.?

As to this spurious argument that because sectarian apartheid in education is tolerated elsewhere therefore it should also be tolerated here, South Africa seen nothing wrong on schools based on degrees of skin pigmentation. Was that acceptable.?

RC schools in Scotland simply don't work academically, they are a failure and contribute nothing to Scotland intellectully, morally or socially. That only one is good enough to make the top 50 in the country says it all.

I've also already referred to the fact that a disproportionate amount of RC's make up our prison population. That "special RC ethos" they were imbibed on in their separate school was a geat help to them wasn't it in preparing them and grounding them for life.?
110

JC,

Deepest Kent 26/05/2008 01:14:25
Well, it certainly puts a different perspective on Scotland.

It's now, officially, a CATHOLIC country!!!! The Pope will be proud, so the "peeple's team" will have to adopt what the majority of Scots believe in...................Catholocism!!!!! That will certainly screw up any reform (sorry for the pun) that Re-aRangers have in store!!!!!!!!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, h, ha, ha!!!!!!!
111

monkey man,

26/05/2008 01:23:58
# 111 JC

Only an idiot would believe these daft polls that are newsfillers for the papers. lol

Then again, by your post you could easily have went to an apartheid school not in the top 50 in Scotland. ?

Go on, tell me you didn't.? lol
112

Joseph Bloggs,

26/05/2008 02:11:58
111
No tomorrow you will wake up and find Scotland the same as it was before you read an article Online.
You will need to curb your enthusiasm for the Scottish inquisition the day they send out religious vigilante snatch squads who kick in peoples doors in the dead of night and drag away the nonconformists and religious unwanted as if it comes to this day im sure you will play an integral part.
Some might say this will never happen ......... thats what they said about Nazi Germany/Mussolini's Italy and look who the Reich's and Musso's church was then aswell. Coincidence?
113

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 26/05/2008 04:42:26
# 110
Look in the mirror dude the only bigot you will see is yourself,what a waste of human tissue, I flush better down the toilet than what you are looking at in the mirror,SAD BUT TRUE.
i HAVE LOT'S OF PROD FRIENDS,sure glad your not one of them.
114

Cyril,

New Zealand 26/05/2008 04:45:26
Many are turning to the Catholic Church in this country. Catholic schools are excellent here and fully supported by the State. A person here is judged by what they are and not by their family, race , religion, or education. There are few bigots here thank heaven.
115

Endangeredscot,

26/05/2008 10:47:07
93 Tiree,25/05/2008 22:37:54

To paraphrase the wonderful William Barclay - "I don't care what William says!" - The authors of the gospels are not explained to the average churchgoer- they are allowed the myth that the authors are who they say they are. The actual authorship of any of these books is in serious doubt, and the only conclusions people can make are from assumptions and from references to people who share the same name (or have two names but are conveniently referenced to by one of them John Mark for example.)

The Book of John is an enigma (and a fascinating one) in itself, where it has been accepted that the phrases in it "the one who Peter loved" and "the other disciple" refer to the author of the book, John. But this cannot be the case if you study the other books, or indeed Revelations. You will know this of course, but what irks me is that the lie, the myth, that the books are of the words of the people they claim to be only serves for the purpose of an authorative authorship in the minds of the ordinary follower.

To say they were written after the event by others is to admit they are not the actual words of the people they claim to be in the popular and accepted sense. It is this kind of 'oh well if they think that let 'em' philosophy that does much harm to the Christian message because it sows the seeds of doubt. Neither you nor I can say with any certainty who the authors are, but we can at least agree they were not Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as understood by the vast majority or as we were taught in school and church.
116

monkey man,

26/05/2008 10:55:45
#114 Stevie,G

Sadly, you sound a very bitter and angry man and I feel sorry for you. I'd suggest your so-called "faith" isn't very consoling or comforting if this hatred you espouse is what drives it.

Have a nice day now.!
117

Encephalon,

26/05/2008 12:04:28
Protestants and Roman Catholics-like two bald men fighting over a comb!
118

Encephalon,

26/05/2008 12:13:40
"SCOTLAND has become more Roman Catholic than Protestant"

Er no it has not.

Although the numbers say that both sides have well and truly lost hands down to the agnostics, atheists etc-
sorry to disappoint you bhoys but that headline is a gross misrepresentation of the facts as it fails to take account of the other Protestant denominations-Baptists, Wee Frees, United Frees, Episcopalian, Methodists etc.

Scotland is still Protestant-at least nominally.

Something to bear in mind before the Cardinal presumes to think he has the authority to dictate to the rest of us!
119

Vin,

Dublin 26/05/2008 16:22:23
...Hey monkey man... Did you attend one of the Top 50...??
We avid readers of your diatribe (you might want to google that big word) have our doubts....
120

Vin,

Dublin 26/05/2008 16:24:51
...Hey monkey man... Did you attend one of the Top 50...??
We avid readers of your diatribe (you might want to google that big word) have our doubts....
121

westview,

wee free planet 26/05/2008 16:25:20
France and the US by law have severed the connection between church and state. In the UK the head of state and the established church is one and the same person. QE2 and the the Church of England rule over all the UK. This may suit the Tory Party even in its New Labour form but to have the Church of England rule in a free Scotland is nonsense. Disestablish the C of E now and be fair to Scots ,whether catholic ,protestant , buddist, or aétheist.
122

Vin,

26/05/2008 16:26:52
...Hey monkey man... Did you attend one of the Top 50...??
We avid readers of your diatribe (you might want to google that big word) have our doubts....
123

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26/05/2008 17:12:47
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,

26/05/2008 17:28:05
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26/05/2008 17:39:19
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126

St. Brendan,

I wish you were here. 26/05/2008 18:05:01
Why is there no statistics on Atheists out under a clear sky? What are you afraid of?
127

Calum Crubag,

26/05/2008 18:23:55
Momkey man - Orange Order/ Catholic Church = different cheeks, same arrse.

Iain Paisley has more in common with the Pope than he has with most of us. I wonder how many Orangies keep the Sabbath holy and refrain from sex before marriage? Wouldn't it be interesting if Rangers refused to play on Sunday? And no Prods celebrated the Popish/Pagan festival of Christmas?

Alternatively, we could all just leave religion in the dark ages.
128

Phillip,

26/05/2008 18:25:21
I am sick and tired of the claim that Islam is surpassing Christianity in total numbers. It's hogwash.

According to the most recent numbers released this year by the UN, the total number of all Muslims (Sunni, Shia, Druze, Sufi, and everyone else) all lumped together for the first time was a larger total than the numbers of a single Christian Denomination - the Roman Catholic Church.

It took combining all the different and warring factions of Islam (many of whom don't even consider each other to be muslims) to get a number larger than just the Roman Catholic Church.

To make it even funnier, the numbers given for muslims are even in doubt because most of the totals were provided by the governments of muslim countries and were not independently verified. The total number of muslims simply matched their population figures. Since it's illegal for anyone to be anything other than muslim in their countries they claim that everyone must be a muslim. It didn't take any account those who truly consider themselves another religion or athiests but who hide this fact from their governments in fear of prosecution & the death penalty.

If Christians reported their numbers the same way then Italy, Spain & Portugal would simply provide their total population figure as Roman Catholic & the UK would list everyone as Anglican.

Muslims are only overtaking Christianity if you assume that every single muslim believes the same thing, that every last person in every single Muslim nation is actually a devout muslim, AND if you decide that only Roman Catholics get to be called Christians.

Islam is not growing because of converts, it is growing because of birth rates.
129

monkey man,

26/05/2008 19:05:55
# 126 Champions

It is only due to the Glorious Revolution in 1688 and King William's supreme victory at The Boyne, the greatest historical event in these British Isles, that ensured civil, religious and democratic rights for us all that we enjoy today.

Again I warmly invite you all to celebrate your right to freedom of worship at our massive Orange Demonstration in memory and honour of King William in July in Glasgow.

See you all there.!

130

senza nome,

26/05/2008 20:23:37
Monkey man: On the contrary, the Battle of the Boyne wasn't even the most important of the Williamite wars.That was the Battle of Aughrim in 1691.No doubt you will be out prancing the streets on the 12th. of July.In fact the Battle of the Boyne was fought on July 1st. by the old, inaccurate Julian calendar.It wasn't until 1752 that the more accurate Gregorian calender was introduced in Britain.It moved the date by 11 days, hence the discrepancy.The Gregorian calender was named after the man who introduced it, Pope Gregory X111.So the only reason Orangemen celebrate the 12th. of July is because the Pope said so.Have a nice day!
131

monkey man,

26/05/2008 20:30:08
#131

Yes, and now you'll be also telling me that The Boyne victory was only a small irrelevant battle in a wider European war and also that the Pope demanded that bells be rung to celebrate William's defeat of James. Yaaaaaaaaaawwwwwnnn.!

Get over it, William's victory gave us all the freedoms we take for granted today. C'mon down to Glasgow in July to celebrate as well.! lol
132

senza nome,

26/05/2008 23:50:31
That's the truth but you'd prefer your own myths.What freedoms did he introduce? One man,one vote? Votes for women? No, he was just as much interested in maintaining the power of the landed aristocracy as James was.Oh, and he ordered the Massacre of Glencoe.Nice man.
133

Bigwull,

edinburgh 27/05/2008 08:13:54
I also do believe Williams army had the Pope's blessing too.
134

Thistledhu,

27/05/2008 13:45:17
ah yes king william the king who could barely speack english who selected his male staff on their looks
(when challenged as to why he had appointed a admiral who had never been to sea he repleid he is a very handsome pretty man!!!!)
135

Thistledhu,

27/05/2008 13:52:58
and the battle of the boyne where french mercenaries fought dutch and german mercenaries
136

monkey man,

27/05/2008 14:26:18
I think this poll where RC's outnumber Protestants was taken when all the Bears were down in Manchester. lol
137

John1,

Stirling 28/05/2008 13:59:35
Much wandering from the point as usual in these erudite debates. Allow me to wander also. I have a direct line to god through Jesus Christ. the church exists to support me in that and I, as a member of the church (rather than any denomination) have a duty to help others. Organised religion is run by human beings and has the inevitable flaws inherent in any organisation run by humans. Remember that the church is a hospital for sinners, not a cosy club for saints. To find out how a Christian should behave, read Matthew Chapters 5, 6 and 7. It sounds a lot but in my bible is less than four pages long. I recommend it to all, Christians and(especially) non-christians. As for Muslims, at least they regard Jesus as a prophet, which is a start and shows that they will be aware that he said "No-one can come to the father except through me." He also said "Love your enemies", which those whose way of evangelising on behalf of Islam is to go in for suicide bombing might like to consider.

 

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