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Published Date: 05 August 2007
SECTARIAN chanting by Rangers fans at yesterday's SPL opener in Inverness threatens to derail the club's season before it has even started after the introduction of new rules banning the singing of offensive songs in Scotland.
The Ibrox club are facing a possible fine or even being stripped of points after supporters spouted a series of hate-filled songs and slogans throughout the televised game at the Caledonian Stadium.

Fans shouted "F**k the Pope" at the end of a re
ndition of the The Sash and openly used the phrase "Fenian bastards" in another chant as their team strolled to a 3-0 victory. The words are clearly audible on television footage.

SPL delegate Alan Dick will refer to the sectarian singing in his first report to the league on Tuesday, the tone of which will determine what action will be taken against the club.

Under new legislation introduced by the SPL last month to clamp down on the unacceptable behaviour of certain fans, clubs have been warned to expect severe sanctions if their followers step out of line. Depending on the nature of the breach, clubs face a warning, a fine and the possible deduction of points.

If Dick's report hammers the Glasgow side's supporters for singing songs that are offensive on the basis of amounting to religious insults, the matter will be referred to an independent commission chaired by senior lawyers.

It is the latest incident involving Rangers fans singing sectarian songs, which on two previous occasions has seen the club fined more than £20,000 by UEFA for inflammatory chanting. The fines were imposed after encounters with Villarreal in March 2006 and in Pamplona five months ago.

"The club is wholly committed to continuing its effort to eradicate inappropriate behaviour," said a Rangers spokesman. "We will look into the circumstances surrounding today's game."

Yesterday's developments will also come as a huge embarrassment to the Ibrox club, which launched its own anti-bigotry campaign just ten days ago after it was hit with a fine of £13,000 by Uefa and warned about its fans' future conduct after sectarian chanting was heard during a game against Villarreal in the Uefa Cup.

Rangers' assistant manager Ally McCoist said he was terrified the team would also be docked SPL points.

He said: "Everyone at Ibrox is committed to showing Rangers in the best possible light on and off the field and that's why we're launching Follow With Pride," he said. "The club is constantly under the spotlight and our fans, more than anyone else, realise the importance of setting high standards of behaviour. We want to get that message across and show what a fantastic club this is."



The full article contains 456 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

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04/08/2007 23:58:58
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2

Carronbear,

Auckland 05/08/2007 00:00:55

Watched the game on the net and the chants were clear. I think Rangers now need to stop taking tickets for away matches until we can sort this mess out. You don't hear this at Ibrox anymore. Before our friends from across the city start trying to claim the moral high ground, you have got the same issues with your away support.

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05/08/2007 00:05:05
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Cammy,

Edinburgh Hibby 05/08/2007 00:14:21

I have some sympathy for Rangers, as they do seem (at last) to realise that they need to cut out these cancerous people from their support.

They have made some good headway and we all know how difficult it is to get these type of stupid lowlife to stop their disgusting behaviour.

What I want to know is what we're all paying the police for. They insist on charging our clubs huge amounts for they level of officers they specify at our games. Yet seem unable to carry out their job when it's right in front of their faces.

Lets punish these people in the courts, which is where they truly belong.

7

walter_get_it_right,

n ireland 05/08/2007 00:17:43

i think you find celtic do this also at their games and sing songs about fighting the british army for 800 years, i find these songs offensive, so what are the spl going to do about them,???

yes i know rangers can sing songs that would be offensive to catholics, but in my view the sash and derrys walls are folk songs just like the soliders song is the national anthem of irish republic.

the scottish football association, has to come out and say to BOTH RANGERS AND CELTIC which songs are and are not allowed....

8

North of the Border,

Edinburgh 05/08/2007 00:22:49

This is a complex issue.
I think that there can be little doubt that the chants referred to in the article are completely unacceptable but where are the boundaries to be drawn ? Is "The Sash" unacceptable ? "Derry's Walls" ? "Build my Gallows" ?
Don't get me wrong, I want the idiots removed from football grounds as much as anyone but there doesn't seem to be much clarity about what is and what is not unacceptable. Indeed there are arguably issues of freedom of expression here.
And is it right that such complex matters are being left to football administrators ?

9

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05/08/2007 00:25:58
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10

Jaggy,

05/08/2007 00:27:35

I'm very impressed by Alan Dick. It usually takes days for these reports to arrive at the SFA/SPL. And yet his was done and dusted within minutes of the game finishing. It would of course be uncharitable to suggest that his report was written prior to the game.

On another point, Celtic FC when criticised for the antics of their support used to claim that they could not control the away support. And everyone seemed to accept that excuse. Strange how that does not see to apply to Rangers.

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05/08/2007 00:27:57
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05/08/2007 00:32:41
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13

irnblu,

Norwich 05/08/2007 00:35:41

Not defending FTP but in all honesty can't see whats wrong with any other chant, to do with football or not. Many songs, (Blue Moon, Blaydon Races, You'll Never Walk Alone, The Sash, Fields Of Athenry) rouse the crowd to rouse the team in many different ways, cultural, political or even football related.
Especially popular with football fans the world over and since time began have been songs and chants that have nothing to do with supporting the team but everything to do with winding up and deliberately upsetting the opposition supporters. It looks like enough people in these ultra-PC times can't wait to be offended to justify their own agendas.
Old Firm, New Firm, Manc, Scouse, Cockney, European, a football fans life is all about crowing over others especially your local rivals, abuse goes with the territory.
Lighten up. Can't take it, don't dish it. Don't like it, diddums, get with the program.

14

Samuel,

05/08/2007 00:45:26

toddboy, you have no right to complain about any of this behaviour since your own expose you as a bigot with your crude stereotypes and bile.

15

Samuel,

05/08/2007 00:48:47

#12 Your behaviour indicates that you are on a par with the bigots.

How ironic.

16

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 00:52:26

The fact is that NONE of Celtics songs are aimed at the Protestant faith, whereas many of Rangers songs are aimed at the Catholic Church. The 800 years song is not sung at Celtic Park, and even if it was its not a sectarian song! Irish Republicanism was founded by Presbyterians and has never been associated with this vile secarianism. We have demonstrated through our history (Jock Stein, Danny McGrain etc) that we dont care what a persons religion is/was or might have been as long as they wear the colours with pride and play football the Celtic way they are acceptable to our club...Rangers on the other hand!

17

Jack Slim,

05/08/2007 00:53:51

Scotland has got a deep, DEEP rooted problem that shows no signs of going away, despite all these so-called 'campaigns' that the SFA have set in place over the years that are supposedly having a great effect.....

If you need any further proof of this just read the 100-200 comments that will appear below me on this page, most of which will include absolute crap from people using this as an excuse to slate oposing teams and making semi-sectarian comments themselves.

I'm not an expert on Scottish football but it seems to me that Celtic and Rangers are both guilty of this, as are a number of other teams' fans in the SPL, so this isn't anything new. But to have sectarian chants at a FOOTABLL match (a game supposed to be for entertainment and enjoyment, including for families), in fact the OPENING match of a football season....it's just pathetic.

18

Samuel,

05/08/2007 00:55:52

#16 Sailor Pat

What about "sad orange B", which I heard at Parkhead on a few occasions just last season and away too.

What about your away support also just last year singing "till there are no protestants at all".

The Irish Republican Army did persecute protestant communities. Go do a search.

19

North of the Border,

Edinburgh 05/08/2007 00:56:46

The idiots need to be rooted out on BOTH sides:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM_ax89ge-w

20

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 00:57:40

irnbru, how can you equate any of the Celtic songs you mention to the Sash? It is a triumphalist dirdge that is anti-Catholic to the core! No rangers supporter I know would ever want it sung at a football match! I agree that its all about one upmanship but there's acceptable songs and unacceptable songs and frankly most Rangers songs are unacceptable...

21

nearlyneurotic,

F.F.A.F.FootballingFansAgainstFraud !! 05/08/2007 00:57:44

See if the Ibrox boiling throngs that sing these sectarian songs along with the other abusive chants realised they were the main reason why no one wants to touch their club with a 10 foot barge pole,they`d probably stop.
The only reason that Sir Wantaway cannot get shot of Rangers Football Club is entirely because of the type of bigots that attend their games,yesterday being a typical example.

Lets say that,with an educated guess, about 98% of Rags fans at the game yesterday want Sir Wantaway to chuck it and let someone else who has Rags best interests at heart to take over at the top.

Those 98% of fans actions yesterday ensured that that will never happen.

Imagine somebody ploughed whatever it took to make Rags the best outfit in Europe into the club.
Then to sit back and watch the fans in the terraces have them banned from major competition.

Best get used to Sir Wantaway being in charge for the next 19 years.
Unless that is, he just ups sticks(no pun intended)and walks away leaving the bigots to sort it out among themselves.
Then we`d all be in for a right old laugh!

22

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05/08/2007 00:59:17
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BlueNose NZ,

Auckland 05/08/2007 01:01:16

As a Rangers fan who sat down to watch this game at 2330 last night on braodband, I couldn't believe that after just over 2 minutes of the game the same old chants were being blasted out. The same chants that we have been warned could and will cost points if they are continued to be sung.

Am I the only Rangers fan with any brains! Maybe the club should do a little IQ test before distributing away tickets. Or better still after this two fingered slaute to the club and the authorities perhaps Rangers should refuse away tickets for the next match.

If that does not work then although I hate to say it, the only way to stop it is for points to be deducted. A fine for the club is not going to affect the people who continue with these offensive songs as it is not a direct measure on them personally.

24

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:02:24

Samuel, I dont want to go into the rights or wrongs of the so called IRA campaign as it has no place here. And Orangism, as far as I can tell, isn't a religion. And if you had them marching down your street you might see them as something altogether different again! But that's not the point, the point is that there are songs that we sing that others might find offensive but there are NO secartian songs sung at CP!

25

Samuel,

05/08/2007 01:07:00

I'm not excusing anything and admit we have a problem with a section of our away support, but the Celtic fans on here such as Pat are spinning a lie that they have no sectarian problem.

Celtic fans were guilty of sectarianism, racism and signing about murderers in the cities that they murdered in. Feel free to ask me for example.

nearlyneurotic and toddboy display their own bigotry and sickness with their remarks.

It is clear that both clubs still have some idiots to be weeded out. We have three of Celtics on here right now.

26

Paris Reds,

Boston, MA 05/08/2007 01:10:22

"We will look into the circumstances surrounding today's game."

...the circumstances surrounding the game were that a large number of unpleasant low-life bigots just happened to be in attendance. Always have been always will be. Likewise the other half of the OF.

Will be interesting to see if the SFA are finally going to put their money where their mouth is.

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05/08/2007 01:10:41
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05/08/2007 01:11:02
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Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:12:33

IRISH REPUBLICANISM IS NOT SECTARIAN! The fact that we sing Irish Rebel songs cannot be equated with the Billy Boys or old Derrys Walls (great that there's no London in there!). I think you'll find that the IRA were quite happy to kill Catholics as well as protestants. It was about British rule not protestant rule. Now the UVF/LFF/UDA on the other hand....only killed prods when they interfered with their drug dealings...

30

Bob dublin,

05/08/2007 01:13:23

It seems to me, that if the choir at the Inverness game were "true fans",, and know that they will put their team in jepardy,,possibly costing points, and maybe down the road a championship,,then the deep rooted hatred means more to them than the team.
There now has to be a photo ID system put in place.
More cameras ,than the streets of London, at the grounds.
Ban all that are guilty me lord

31

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:13:47

Sam, FTP is not sectarian?????

32

Samuel,

05/08/2007 01:16:14

todd, I've seen your previous posts where you talk abou Celtic as we.

Hard luck!

It was a poor attempt, but I've noticed you before.

Your generalisation that "Rangers fans are scum" tars them all with the same brush, regardless of the fact that many don't subscribe to such views.

As such, you have displayed prejudice with your bigoted stereotypes and have exposed your true self.

Thankfully, many Celtic fans are not like you, even if they too have an embarrassing minority.

33

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:16:48

And Sam I wholeheartedly agree that Fenian can be any faith...that's a good thing! Dont you see that???

34

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05/08/2007 01:18:08
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BlueNose NZ,

Auckland 05/08/2007 01:18:21

Samuel is right, okay this thread is about events yesterday and I made my thoughts known about it @ #23.

I concede that the problem at Rangers is significantly worse than at Celtic, but guys you just cannot make yourselves out to be lily white all the time.

Society today demands that if even one person finds something offensive, however trivial you may think it is, it has to be addressed. Your club (if it is Celtic) obviously feels there is a problem to some degree and have brought in Billy Connolly to be a spokesman. You need to accept it like your team has and we ALL need to work together to some sort of solution instead of going into denial.

36

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:18:31

Whereas Orange can ONLY be one faith (whatever that might be - I for one think there all F*cked up)...dont you see that???

37

Samuel,

05/08/2007 01:18:54

Pat, I never said FTP wasn't sectarian. I never even mentioned it.

However, Celtic fans do still sing "orange b" and "till there are no Protestants at all", both of which are sectarian.

38

Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 01:19:24

The only poster that seems to "get it" so far is BNNZ.

Its not about the other, its about ourselves.

39

nearlyneurotic,

F.F.A.F.FootballingFansAgainstFraud !! 05/08/2007 01:21:10

I asked the question a few days ago why Walter Smith nor David Murray took anything to do with the "Follow with Pride" media announcements last week.

I now know the answer.

Yesterday the Rags boiling throngs in attendance at Inverness were only giving the two fingered salute to McCoist,Kenny Scott and Sandy Jardine leaving Wallee and Sir Wantaway to retain a semblance of authority and respect.
Cowards or very shrewed...take your pick.

40

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:21:54

BNZ you are right. There are levels of wrongness (if there is such a word, probably not) but we both have our edjits and we'll have to deal with them. But the point is we go to (mostly) Catholic Europe and are welcomed whereas Rangers go and sing FTP and wonder why they are meeting with increasingly hostile fans....its not rocket science!

41

North of the Border,

Edinburgh 05/08/2007 01:22:42

"I think you'll find that the IRA were quite happy to kill Catholics as well as protestants." - are you for real ?

So chanting in support of a terrorist organisation is perfectly acceptable at a football ground ? Is this acceptable behaviour ?:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXTyjsvkMTE

For as long as anyone is prepared to defend this, there is indeed a major problem afflicting Scottish football.

42

Gandalf the Great,

Slayer of Orcs 05/08/2007 01:23:28

Lets have no more of this "old-firm" nonsense.

There is no "old firm", this is just lazy journalism.

We are Celtic, famed the world over with fans that are welcome everywhere.

They are Rangers (no-one likes, we don't care) who are reviled everywhere.

I know that there is a benign majority of Rangers fans who deplore them, but it is their vocal ORC minority who shame their club and who shame Scotland.

I wonder whether protestant Scotland has the courage to deal with this disgusting institution called Rangers, or whether we will continue to be told "yous ur jist is bad as thame" and let them off the hook again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.....................

43

irnblu,

Norwich 05/08/2007 01:23:30

Sailor Pat, a lot of songs, Championees, 2 In A Row, are a "triumphalist dirdge". The Sash, FOA and countless thousands of others are anti something/one. Of course you think some songs are unacceptable, that's the point, get with the program.

44

nearlyneurotic,

F.F.A.F.FootballingFansAgainstFraud !! 05/08/2007 01:24:59

Rangers banner of

"Follow with Pride" should be replaced by;

"Wallow in Disgrace".

45

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:25:14

And Sam the song you refer to is Northmen, Southmen (a great song) and that little add on is not sung at CP. It maybe by Away fans but not by decent Celtic fans. Certainly not in my experience...

46

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:28:44

North of the B. I wasn't justifying what the IRA did, I was making a point about sectarianism. F*ck the POPE is sectarian, Rebel songs are not. End of story. And if you dont like the fact that rebel songs are sung in Scotland then tough...

47

Samuel,

05/08/2007 01:30:02

Pat, Rangers haven't really had any trouble from away fans in "catholic" Europe, despite Celtic fans trying to using internet forums in order to spread hatred and cause violence between Rangers and fans in Israel, Italy and Spain.

I think any decent human being would agree that such attempts to stir up trouble do not paint the celtic fans involved in a good light.

48

Samuel,

05/08/2007 01:34:24

Gandalf

Your attempt to take the moral high ground fails snce Celtic fan sites mention that ORC stands for Orange Racist C**ts.

You have made yourself out as a bigot for using it.

49

BOB THE RABID DOG,

Carstairs Crew 05/08/2007 01:36:31

Rangers came first.

Rangers have won more trophies.

Rangers have more fans.

Rangers have the best stadium in Scotland.

Rangers fans are better looking.

Worldwide renow-ened as the number 1.

RFC

They are the people.

50

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:37:55

Sam, what are you on? Celtic fans dont have to stir up trouble for Rangers in Europe! Go on You tube and listen to the bile that Rangers away supporters sing/chant in Europe! You think singing FTP in Europe is a good thing to do??? So its all Celtic fans stirring it up? Right! thats what the problem is......edjit!

51

BlueNose NZ,

Auckland 05/08/2007 01:39:11

The thing I just cannot understand is that the songs started after just 2 minutes FFS!

I think the club although they are 'doing their bit' need to get really tough. They must have a record of who and what supporters clubs received tickets for ICT and with that in mind ALL of them should now be blacklisted for the rest of the season from away games tickets.

That way you know for sure you got ALL the people who were signing (more or less). It also means that for the rest of the travelling fans and supporters clubs they will be left in no uncertain terms that if there is any unsavoury singing at the game they are going to then they will be black listed also. Shame on the good fans who travel but you have to be cruel to be kind sometimes and it puts the onus on them to speak out at the games and point out offenders.

Thats not rocket science either!

52

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05/08/2007 01:39:32
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53

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05/08/2007 01:43:16
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54

Samuel,

05/08/2007 01:43:23

Pat, I hardly think that foreign fans understand what a group of Scottish accents mean by fenian.

I repeat, we have no real problem with oppositionfans in Europe.

55

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05/08/2007 01:43:42
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BlueNose NZ,

Auckland 05/08/2007 01:46:49

Sailor Pat

I'm on your side with this FTP issue, totally and utterly unacceptable.

I'm not religious in any way shape or form BUT I recognise that the RC faith particularly in Europe is very very strong, the people are deeply religious and it is a complete slur and insult for a bunch of fans to invade their cities and utter such words about their religious leader.

57

Samuel,

05/08/2007 01:46:58

Bob, if you harm the club you are not supporting them. Please understand this. You will help others deduct points and cause shame for our club if you persist.

Please, I ask you for the sake of our club, stop cauing us trouble. We don't want it.

I would support Sir David Murray if he rejects away tickets to protect the club.

Please don't give our enemies ammunition.

58

BlueNose NZ,

Auckland 05/08/2007 01:49:07

#54

Therein lies the problems that Rangers face.

I've only been here 2 years btw and was home at Christmas - glad I missed you.

59

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:49:08

And the holy virgin has what to do with this????? Bob you are an idiot nothing more nothing less

60

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:51:39

BNZ and Sam, you need to weed out the Bobs of this world if you are ever to be taken seriously by the world! I know that we have idiots too and I'm sorry if my defending rebel songs at CP isn't right in your eyes but it will never equate to FTP!

61

Samuel,

05/08/2007 01:53:25

We know this already Pat.

62

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:55:26

Sam BNZ, now you know what it was like growing up in Belfast. But despite the Bobs I'm proud to have many friends of all faiths and none!

Ex-RC! All faiths and None! Hail Hail!

63

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 01:58:23

I long for the day when I can stand in a bar or football ground as we can at Rugby matches, and enjoy a great game (as long as the hoops are on top LOL) of scottish football without fear of idiots like Bob threatening violence on all around him!

64

Samuel,

05/08/2007 02:04:09

We can agree on that. Where we differ is on where we draw the line. I'd rather see the whole of the non-football/political/historical nonsense gone.

It's got nothing to do with football, Scotland or the 21st century. The tit for tat nature of rivalry keeps it all alive but it aint relevant.

65

HibsJoe,

Manchester 05/08/2007 02:08:36

I think it isnt enough to simply look at the words of a song, you also have to look at the context and meaning behind the song.

Sailor Pat, your point that rebel songs arnt sectarian is missing the point. Rebel songs might not be as blunt in their hate as FTP or Billy Boys but they are offencive in the context of a SPL game. You have to look behind the words at the intention of the song and in the case of rebel songs the intention is to offend people. Its no longer acceptable to hide behind the mantal of "cultural songs". In the same breath the Sash doesnt directly refer to acts of violence against Catholics but everyone gets the picture, were all well aware of the meaning behind the words.

In certain contexts certain songs are acceptable. I myself would struggle to be more pro British but still when Rangers come to Easter Road and sing Rule Britannia and God Save the Queen, songs that in other contexts im very fond of, I boo. I boo because I understand the meaning behind the words, its not an exspression of love for Britain, rather its a crude attempt to insult Catholics. Sadly for them, some of us Catholics are pro British. At the same time I boo Celtic songs, not because I have any hate for Ireland. Not atall my family is from Monaghan, rather I boo because, while FOA may indeed be a nice song it is being used as a means of causing offence.

66

David W.,

Detroit 05/08/2007 02:09:07

Simply amazing. Just earlier today I'm in a Scottish shop in Michigan and was talking to the proprietor. He's from Ayr. For grins, I asked him, "Celtic or Rangers?" He says, "Neither, they're both too much trouble for Scotland. Ayr United."

I told him there is still too much trouble, but it is slowly fading. And then this. Incredible. I know this will wind some people up since Celtic has its rubes, too. But Rangers still seem to have a bigger problem with it. The game in Israel, causing problems at Osasuna and now this. Throw in comments on this thread from idiot Bob. I also think Celtic as a club have moved more affirmatively to stamp it out.

No, we're not saints (pardon the pun) and the Old Firm need to fix the problem. But this latest shows that Rangers have some truly bad fans to deal with. And at a Caley game, no less! WTF?

67

nearlyneurotic,

F.F.A.F.FootballingFansAgainstFraud !! 05/08/2007 02:11:43

McCoist stood up at the latest"Follow with Pride" campaign on 26/7/07 and took the plaudits for bravely declaring that if necessary he would personally intervene at games where Rags supporters were chanting and singing sectarian and other abusive chants.

Where was that bravery yesterday Ally?
Go all weak at the knees did we?

Actions speak louder than words.
If you dont prevent it you are condoning it.

And yesterday Ally you did nowt,zilch,nada,nuthin.

When the going got tough you got off your mark.
Another one that talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

68

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 02:12:32

Sam, you're right but there are levels of acceptance. We are a Scottish club with strong Irish roots and we sing all sorts of songs in memory of that link. I dont believe that any of our main stream songs should be construed as offensive. On the other hand, as BNZ has admitted, many of Rangers songs are just down right anti-Catholic! But then the problem with loyalism, as opposed to republicanism, has always been that it is anti-papal. The Irish link will always have elements of republicanism about it. I for one dont have a problem with that but I can understand some (including Celtic fans) who do. But as I've said before, FTP and Sean South dont register on the same scale for me....one's a sectarian disgrace and the others a fine rebel song. Sorry if you disagree!

69

Jed Zeppelin,

Dundee 05/08/2007 02:16:12

...for far too long now the old firm have paid only lip service to the cancer of sectarianism...and all with a knowing nod and a wink... now the chickens are coming home to roost...

they'll be ok tho, the sfa don't have the cojones to deduct points off of the old firm... if it was one of us poor wee 'diddy' teams tho you can bet they'd throw the book at us...

70

thewelshhahaha,

no Wales 05/08/2007 02:17:50

not the clubs fault....... very dificult to stop human will. If these songs break any GB laws then the polis have to do summit - rangers =celtic = business. sports entertainment, not a political party or some social work outfit

jesus, if I go buy a celtlic strip and go do a dunblane somewhere are celtic responsible in any way, NO!! but you can just see the headlines eh, celtic fan runs amock in school - journo are stirring it

once and for all it is not the clubs fault... any kind of kundt can support / follow anything they choose to

71

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 02:18:05

Proud to be an Irish Republican in the finest tradition of Wolfe Tone et al! Protestant, catholic and dissenters (I'm the latter, btw!)....

72

Samuel,

05/08/2007 02:19:30

HibsJoe and David

I thank you for your balanced and sensible points.

I agree with much if not all of what you say.

I'd love to see all the non-football/historical/pseudo-historical crap gone. I'd Welcome Sir David Murray rejecting away tickets but this could harm the smaller clubs to the tune of £300k per match, but I care more about my club, its reputation and of course, selfishly, our points total.

I have had words with the idiots at away games. They do seem to be a shrinking minority but sadly nowhere near enough. These people can be rather intimidating when they are in a group.

The police don't help, which is terrible since they are paid to do a job and there are appropriate laws to weed these people out. The club are doing a lot including bringing our own stewards to away games, but I think a self imposed away ticket ban.

73

Sailor Pat,

London 05/08/2007 02:19:32

Good night and may your God go with you....ZZZZZ

74

HibsJoe,

Manchester 05/08/2007 02:23:17

Doesnt it strike anyone else as weird that Old Firm fans know so little of the actual history of Irlenad?

Especially the Papacys role in Irelands history?

Its was Pope Adrian who in 1155 made the King of England the Lord Protector of Ireland.

It was the then Pope who had mass said for William of Orange, sent both money and troops and even his personal battle standerd to be carried into battle by Williams half Catholic army at the Boyne.

And if thats not enough only some eighty years ago the Papacy excommunicated all IRA members and anyone who participated in resistence against British rule.

And yet Rangers fans sing FTP while Celtic fans bring Vatican flags with them???!!!!

That makes no sence to me what so ever.

The Papacy has never endorsed republicanism and on occasion has done everything in its power to stamp it out and yet Celtic fans literally sing the praises of the Pope. While one of the most consistent supporters of unionism has been the Catholic church and Rangers fans curse the Pope at every oppertunity.

Bloody mad if you ask me.

75

Samuel,

05/08/2007 02:29:29

HibsJoe,

Very interesting and highlights the ignorance. I am guilty of that too, but not the hypocrisy since I don't partake.

Thanks for the info. Most enlightening,

76

nearlyneurotic,

F.F.A.F.FootballingFansAgainstFraud !! 05/08/2007 02:30:55

If any Rags supporters were wondering what would be the main talking point of their first game of the season go and check the story that talks about their game.

So far its got #10 posts only..and 3 of them are mine!!

77

Pat the Hat,

Baile an tSaoir 05/08/2007 02:31:37

I came on to say that I think the offensive songs issue is nonsense. I don't care what a bunch of pig-ignorant, uneducated knuckledraggers sings about my faith, my country, my culture or my club. They are so far beneath my consideration that they are of absolutely no consequence.

The PC brigade are trying to turn football into Cotswolds Sunday afternoon cricket on the village green.

I do find it interesting, however, that the two links posted so far that purport to show "sectarianism" among Celtic fans show raucous, indeed offensive behaviour for those looking to be offended, but not a syllable of sectarianism. lol!

As for the rabid dog, keep 'em coming, moron, you are doing our job for us – and only the bluenose from NZ has the intelligence or the wit to see it. Woohoo.

Still, as I have stated any number of times, it's a crock. But it's a crock that is going to see Rangers sink without trace. The process is now irreversible.

78

Pat the Hat,

Baile an tSaoir 05/08/2007 02:34:16

I should have added Samuel to Bluenose NZ roll of decency. Well done, mate.

79

nearlyneurotic,

F.F.A.F.FootballingFansAgainstFraud !! 05/08/2007 02:36:15

This story has been printed so that posters can post their disgust at Rangers Football Club and their supporters actions in Inverness yesterday.

Champions Celtic had nothing to do with those disgraceful scenes yesterday at the Caledonian Stadium,I`m afraid.

80

Vinny less a 1 point & a goal = 7 in row,

Good Auld Kirkie 05/08/2007 02:37:10

Morning all, NN, Pat, a la, before I jet of on my hols.

Its really, really sad and poor that this was inevitable, and yet we thought that this wouldn't happen.

Yes Celtic do have a minority of supporters who indulge in activities which aren't pleasant and bring shame on the club, frankly all clubs do, although the proportion is in line with how big your club.

But again, as said on some many occasions, the most important factor in all this situation is the leadership from the TOP.

My colleague NN briefly touched upon it. Leadership from the top, at Celtic its The Honourable Brian Quinn, former Assistant Chief Govern of the Bank of England, rather small and inferior organisation, and our Lordship SDM at the helm over at IBOX.

How does the leadership of these two guys differ. Search the net and you will find the Panorama Programme from two years back were The Mighty Quinn swept the floor with SDM and Lawrence Mc Intyre.

Now the point in hand, is that Rangers FC, in order to implement the actual law of the land, in that offensive and sectarian singing is now a criminal offense and should in effect be dealt with by the Law, The Police, The Authorities and The Courts, but Rangers FC, for some bizarre reason, decided that the best management decision to make, was that they would now introduce self policing and self discipline policies?????????

I mean really. Its like criminals shopping fellow criminals.

Rangers FC, SDM in particular, in order not to upset the masses and hordes, again, took the easy option out. Which really shouldn't be an option, as Strathclydes Finest should intervene, without being asked. However, everybody, yet again buys it, and Rangers, overnight, without having to arrest or subsequently take to court any of their own fans, as Celtic FC and Mr Quinn in particular have been committed to doing, and have done so at Glasgow Sheriff Court on a number of occasions over the last five to ten years, but remark

81

Samuel,

05/08/2007 02:40:50

cheers mate.

It's a tough job arguing the clowns who are going to harm our club and its reputation when the police won't back you up and then you get others lumping you in with them.

I will not abandon the club because of those backward clowns. The club is doing a lot but the ultimate "cure" is to reject the away allocation which will hurt the smaller clubs, but it may be necessary.

82

Big Stevie,

Sydney 05/08/2007 02:43:54

Sad but not surprised to hear of Rangers fasn antics at Inverness. The difference between Celtic and Rangers problems is this. Yes Celtic have a problem with a section of their away support who indulge in "add ons" to songs which are clearly not acceptable.

Rangers on the other hand have almost no songs in their repetoire that do not contain religious or racist content.

Celtic fans can sing all day about a Grand old team and you'll never walk alone but if you're telling Rangers fans not to sing unacceptable songs, I would love to hear what exactly it is they are supposed to sing.

Rangers have allowed this problem to fester and grow over the last 120 years and are only paying lip-service to anti-bigotry initiatives because they are at the end of a bayonet.

The problem begins and ends with RFC and it is they ho must take decisive action. If it means banning away fans then so be it.

83

Pat the Hat,

Baile an tSaoir 05/08/2007 02:52:05

Samuel – you make a very good point. I would rather see Celtic refuse tickets for away games than risk seeing a few Buckfast Provos endanger the club's league position in order to cause offence.

If the club does that, however, I'm not sure that Scottish football could withstand the loss of revenue.

On the other hand, maybe the fans of small clubs would turn out more if they thought Celtic (and your lot) would be more vulnerable without the fanbase.

Just a thought! And so to bed.

We have a flag to unfurl tomorrow! Woohoo!

84

,

05/08/2007 03:53:19
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85

The Sheikh,

Dubai 05/08/2007 04:12:20

Giving Rangers a Monetary Fine will not affect the Morons singing these songs. The only way to get to these people is to deduct points from their beloved Team. Having Celtic sitting above them in the league is the best punish possible

86

David W.,

Detroit 05/08/2007 04:37:34

Cheers, Samuel. The clubs can't control everyone. What they can do is start yanking season tickets if someone is caught doing anything truly offensive. They can also limit the purchase of away seats. The people who sing the songs and make the salutes tend to be rabid fans, sadly. Hit them where it hurts.

87

Jock,

Fawkirk = Expect the unexpected 05/08/2007 04:41:25

Yet again the vast majority miss the point; we are still going over old ground here with the defence of songs that have nothing to do with football and tribally high jacked by plastic Orangemen to express their hate at another faith.
I have said before the supporters associations who hand out these tickets to fill buses for away games that are televised need to be brought to book by the clubs.
SENTANT are paying clubs vast fees to cover these games and need to be involved about transmitting this vile through our homes and across the world.
I missed this orange order side show at Inverness as I was on route to Motherwell, but this comes as no great surprise to me that the Gers still have fans uneducated to the tolerance of the RC faith.
There are some who profess all things Orange and need to be educated into the 21st century, what more can Rangers football club do to try and stem this vile that is embarrassing the club and the good decent Rangers supporters who follow the club.
Monitor the ticket allocation for away games would be a start. The televised games are there biggest problem, but can be sorted out by the associations and the club when distributing these unwanted tickets to Joe Blogs and the rest of the fellow jolly tour bigots.
Rangers and decent Rangers supporters should not be tagged along with these morons who embarrassed the name of Rangers football club at Inverness yesterday.
Celtic still have some supporters who are of the same mind set but fly under the flag of Rebels and political freedom fighter banners. Not acceptable you cannot shout about your neighbours smoke while your own fire is still producing the same.
The supporter associations are the key to removing these unwanted individuals.

88

Prince Myshkin,

Gold Coast, Australia 05/08/2007 04:42:00

As a Celtic fan, I really don't want to see my team several points in front of Rangers as a result of them being docked points. It really is a worry when, as Bluenose NZ has already stated, the sectarian chanting could be heard loud and clear - TWO MINUTES INTO THE NEW SEASON.

I think Rangers should get a warning on this occasion, in the hope that the morons will finally get the message. If they don't and continue to spout the sectarian bile, then it looks like points will be deducted and, as I say, I for one don't want that.

89

Gandalf the Great,

Slayer of Orcs 05/08/2007 04:54:36

As has been documented time and time again...read posts 53 and 54 and this debate stops here.

There is no point in discussing it anymore. If you want to understand the problem in Scotland, they are the only 2 posts you need to read.

This type of moron exists in the Rangers supporters only.

Sure, Celtic, Hearts and others have their share of bigots but the vicious, obnoxious offensive and repulsive are the domain of Rangers.

For financial reasons, Rangers have tried to move a little....but far too little and far too late.

Rangers Football Club are a disgrace. The Scottish Constabulary are a disgrace. The Scottish judicial system is a disgrace.

If Scotland, our politicians, our Judiciary, our Police or our football officials actually wanted to stop this they could do it in a month.

Close Mordor for a month. Ban Rangers from playing for a month and use video evidence to deal with these creatures.

I bet you the cowardly Orcs would get the message and David Murray, being hit in his pocket (the only place he hurts) would fix the problem.

Unfortunately, protestant Scotland will do nothing as usual.

Old Firm? You must be joking! No right minded person could possibly group Celtic in with these morons.

90

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 04:57:33

Jock,
Agree with almost all of your post (88), but you wandered into the trap I warned you about. You can see from my entry (85) that I do not consider some elements of the Celtic support to be above reproach, and you would be perfectly entitled to berate them if they produced a similar display, but this article in no way concerns Celtic. Do you work for a Scottish newspaper?

91

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 05:18:38

Now here's a thing.
The SPL has given everyone fair warning of their expectations for this season.
If they are determined to rid our game of it's archaic poisons then the most effective message would be to strip Rangers of the three points they earned yesterday. Nobody would be left in any doubt.
As a Tim, I would not want that to happen. I'd prefer to see us win the league on the park.
But we could be entering a minefield. I don't see how The Fields of Athenry could be offensive, but I'm sure other people may think it is.
Are we gonna get SPL approved songbooks?

92

Tam O' Shanter,

05/08/2007 05:35:22

Rangers are gonna pay heavy for burying their heids in the sand for too long.
What goes aroond etc.........

93

Albert Kidd's 86 allstars,

Melbourne 05/08/2007 06:02:14

#90 Nice try Gandalf, the only real problem i have with your post is that you say it's only Rangers fans that behave this way.

That is the real reason this will never go away in Scottish football, This ridiculous It wisny me attitude that both sides of the OF have towards each other mean that the idiots like the ones you pointyour finger at can do and say what they like. After all the onlyt thing they need to finish their blilious rants with is something declaring the other team is far worse or just as bad as they are. Like that holds any kind of weight as an arguement. Until both sides of the OF divide STOP just pointing across no mans land and lobbing these petty and frankly embarrassing slights at each other in the name of parity this will never go away.
I'd suggest if you are a decent person (as many on these threads seem to be) you ignore the mudslinging and try to stick to the Football, after all Ireland, Britain, and religion have nothing to do with it whatsoever...

Enjoy the Football fella's but remember It's only a game eh?

94

Celtic Bhoy,

Carlisle 05/08/2007 06:34:48

I hope the Scottish League punish these neanderthals severely. I will say the exact same if it is my team.

Sectarianism the cancer of Scotland. Lets rid!

95

Alamo,

Glasgow 05/08/2007 06:36:01

All the pleas from Rangers , Celtic etc "high heid yins" have not, and never will, get through to the mindless scum who profess to follow their team.
As soon as any member of the public could possibly hear these words when he/she switches on the tv / radio, then deduct 6 points, and award the match and points( should they have lost ) to the opposing team.
But...that will never happen, because the old firm have too much financial clout within Scottish football. The SFA, whether they admit it or not, need 2 strong Glasgow clubs, and they know if they penalise the old firm too much, they will eventually put themselves out of a job.
The ordinary supporter who doesn't join in the chanting, must by default, agree with the chanting otherwise he / she wouldn't attend a match.

96

Born to roughneck,

05/08/2007 06:45:32

The sad thing is that this is all about 'religion' yet none of the bigots could ever call themselves Christian. That goes for the knuckle dragging morons singing about a long dead king on a white donkey to the pious, stern faced catholic peado priests.The old firm should be shut down and forgotten about.

97

Garenne,

France 05/08/2007 06:59:40

What's Blair doing in the ME when he didn't even try to bring reconciliation between Protestants and Catholics in the Scottish religious war zones. Suspending teams for three matches for the first offence and for the season for subsequent offences would force club chairmen and supporters to take serious action: offenders should be obliged to attend weekend sports camps where mixed teams would enable them to get to know each other, joint outward-bound activities would help... But the problem is much wider: firm action should be taken against discrimination in schools, in the work place, the role played by some education authorities, by Orange Lodges..., the five-second sound-bites by the present pope reduced to church policy denigrating Protestants...
Blair would have been far better occupied working towards religious reconciliation in Britain or at least mutual respect (including Muslims)... than prancing around in Jerusalem.

98

Graecus,

South East Asia 05/08/2007 06:59:43

What a storm in a tea-cup!
Ragers have always been the team supported by loyalist Scots, while Celtic have a largely foreign-loyalty Southern Irish orientation.
The Sash and Derry's Walls are legitimate expressions of ethnic solidarity bewtween Ulster-Scots and their mainland cousins.
Rangers' management are craven - no surrender!~

99

Robert Bonaly,

East Lothian 05/08/2007 07:05:59

Never mind the build up of a warning and then a fine, the only way we have any hope of the message getting through is by a points deduction right away. There is nothing else that is going to work with these bigots. So come on the SFA bear your teeth for once and get to grips with this or is that too much for Mr Smith to contemplate ?!?!

100

,

05/08/2007 07:08:43
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101

Scoop in the City,

05/08/2007 07:10:51

Hey Albert #96 - We agree on something at last.

One of the more worrying thing about all these posts is the debate on whether the sash is sectarian or whether the Old Brigade is sectarian.
The question of course should be whether they have any place at a football match in the 21st century.

Who is worse amongst you? You're having a laugh - right?

102

Bootboy,

05/08/2007 07:12:52

The bottom line is there is no place in football for ANY of these songs.

YOUR AT A FOOTBALL MATCH NOT A WAR!!!

Sing football songs instead of songs about fighting catholics/protestants/potato famines or whatever else.

Or is it too much from the brain cell to take.

103

Rabbie Burns,

Down South 05/08/2007 07:14:00

Compared to wars between different muslim sects in Iraq and conflicts elsewhere in the world, this really has been blown up out of all proportions. Yes, sectarianism (please define someone) is out of order. It would also be highly desirable to go to a football match and not hear swearing but this happens at every single match. I suppose this is another witch hunt against Rangers yet what about the Celtic fans who gleefully sing anti-British songs? Get a grip SFA and focus on the football - you'll never eradicate singing and swearing, however wrong we might all judge it to be.

104

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 07:18:09

Graecus,
It may surprise you to learn that I and many Celtic supporters have no problem with The Sash and Derry's Walls. Sing yer wee heart oot...

105

1875 Always 1 better than the Hertz,

05/08/2007 07:31:29

Stay within the guidelines Mr Smith and don't let anyone deter you from the path. Give Rangers a first official warning and inform them that if it happens again then they will then be fined and if again they will be docked points then if again relegation.

Stay within the guidelines or they will have you in the high court.

On Rangers themselves, why can't they identify the culprits as they know who they sold the tickets to. Get the season tickets of every so called fan into ibrox and remove them from the mailing list for all away matches endof

106

big big fun,

here 05/08/2007 07:32:27

rangers again will come up with some excuse and the fellow masons at the sfa will give them a slap on the wrist.

107

1875 Always 1 better than the Hertz,

05/08/2007 07:34:06

#105

What has FTP got to be added at the end of a folk song for?

What has "we're up to our knees in fenian blood" got to do with football?

Read the article and stay on track to eliminate these morons.

108

mill fi the pans,

adelaide 05/08/2007 07:34:37

only been here a year and miss scottish fitba a lot,however when you here the same bigotted chants from the old firm(celtic aren,t much better)it makes you realise that the s.f.a are bottlers.they have the power to end this by deducting points from these teams but continue to bury their heads in the sand.its time to stand up to the bigot brothers and send a crystal clear message.now everyone knows the real reason why both celtic and rangers have,nt been invited into the english premiership.

109

Dubai,

05/08/2007 07:36:22

get a life. Rangers win 3-0 look like a championship threat so here we go again because some people sing songs. It really is pathetic how offended the new PC Scotland can get. What happened to sticks and stones etc. Who really gives a sh...t about what songs are being sung unless you want to make a point. And some of the earlier points about the IRA wait another 30 years until until all the memories fade. By that time some of the current Sinn Fein politicians may be prepared to tell where all of the bodies are. The wee boy that Irishmen murrdered in Watford would be in his late twenties by now. Ireland's shame.

110

STEADYEDDIE,

EDINBURGH 05/08/2007 07:37:45

STCKS AND STONES WILL BREAK MY BONES BUT NAMES WILL NEVER HURT ME ENOUGH SAID

111

donald,

weegieland 05/08/2007 07:41:05

Time to ban the OldFirm.

112

redandwhitehoops,

05/08/2007 07:43:02

Rangers should have points deducted, as a stern message to their stubborn, idiotic fans who continue to voice sectarian chants. I don't have a problem with the sash or derry's walls, as such, although I don't see what they've got to do with Scottish football or their relevance to life today. I do have a problem with hearing FTP, and thats what the points deduction should be for. If the SFA have the courage to do this once, it'll stop immediately, otherwise Rangers could end up relegated.
Furthermore the next time the stubborn, idiotic Celtic fans sing or chant IRA, they too should be hammered with a points deduction...at this rate maybe Hibs will win the SPL.
Ally where were you today?, I thought you were going to march into the crowd and stop the sectarian singing... oh well maybe next time

113

Gandalf the Great,

Slayer of Orcs 05/08/2007 07:43:23

No matter how many of you apologists for Rangers try and deflect away the criticism by playing the "old firm" card, you will never convince anyone with an ounce of decency that the core of the problem is not Rangers Football Club.

It is clear that Celtic, Hearts and others have problems and no-one denies this. However the source of all of the sectarianism is centred around Mordor.

I fully agree that it is idiotic of some Celtic fans to sing about "soon there will be no protestants at all" but once we root out this song, there are no others that could be considered sectarian.

If it upsets some people that some Celtic fans are pro an Irish Republic then the problem is theirs.

Whether people think that a football ground is an appropriate place to sing republican folk songs is another debate.

This debate is about sectarianism and Rangers are the source and the predominance of the problem. Sort out Mordor and everything else will sort itself.

Protestant Scotland is at last under pressure, but I won't hold my breath for it to act.

Once the weak-willed stop using the "Old Firm" tag to try and dilute the appalling record of Rangers Football Club by trying to include Celtic into their vile behaviour, we might see some progress.

114

,

05/08/2007 07:51:30
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115

Dubai,

05/08/2007 07:52:55

Protestant Scotland is at last under pressure? It has been under pressure for 200 years with Irish immigrants who have never been happy with the Irish social security arrangements. Is anybody familiar with the original term "blacklegs" when Irish labour was used to take the bread out of Scottish mouths?

116

Albert Kidd's 86 allstars,

Melbourne 05/08/2007 07:55:35

Thank you Gandalf for once again proving my point... You really need to actually Read my post and respond with something along the lines of, yes there is no place for bigotry and sectarianism in Scottish football.
I hope you noticed the FULL STOP at the end of that sentence...

117

1875 Always 1 better than the Hertz,

05/08/2007 07:56:14

#115

Agreed this article and the match was about Rangers and Rangers alone. Gordon's committees should be sitting sometime next week as the report will be available by Tuesday. The committee should recommend an official warning to Rangers football club and with anymore occurrances they will be fined and eventually points docked and relegated. What rangers should be doing in the meantime is identifying the culprits as the know who they sold the tickets too and ensure they don't get tickets for any other away matches for this season.

This will be stopped

118

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 07:56:38

Dubai,
And from which Arab's mouth are you currently taking the bread?

119

Albert Kidd's 86 allstars,

Melbourne 05/08/2007 07:58:16

Dubai you are alos, like 80 odd % of the posters on any OF thread, proving my point beyond all reproach, thank you for all being so petty and myopic, you really are a credit to bigots everywhere...

120

Sláine,

05/08/2007 08:02:32

After being extensively warned by their own club and the SPL that sectarianism and bigotry in the form of chants and songs would no longer go unpunished, Rangers supporters stuck the middle finger up at the Scottish footballing world yesterday when fans at the opening SPL match proudly voiced their defiance in the form of disgustingly bigoted and inflamatory songs and chants aimed specifically at those of the roman catholic faith.
With prior warning, absolutely no provocation and the knowledge that such behaviour will result in heavy sanctions this season, still the moronic few managed on the opening day of the competition to drag their club's name through the mud risking points deduction from the off and embarrassing those that proudly helped launch Rangers' anti bigotry campaign 10 days ago.

Them's the facts folks, NOTHING but then ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the reigning SPL Champions Celtic despite all the pathetic, childish and ultimately futile attempts to paint Celtic supporters with the same filthy bigot brush by supporters desperate to try and defend the indefensible...

...and the cry was "They're as bad as us"

...Fortunately for all decent people, that one just doesn't wash anymore, not even it seems in the traditionally malleable Scottish media.......

121

gerry2,

05/08/2007 08:03:17

It was always going to be difficult for Rangers given that the club's directors for over 100 years practised blatant religious prejudice in their ban on Catholics playing for them.

I wonder to what extent wee Ally's latest pronunciations are influenced by the filthy lucre?!- quite a bit I would think.

122

GerryGilli,

GerryLand 05/08/2007 08:03:56

Oh, God! If it was only the sectarian chanting! When was the last time any of you were at a football game where some moron next to you wasn't spouting off that the ref is a *#!**, the linesman a *#!**, the whole opposing team is a *#!**, the ground, the pitch, the stand - did you ever here some of your own supporters say 'Aye, he was offside' or 'Aye it was a foul, right enough' when it's your own team? The foul-mouthed obscenities that are all over a stadium nowadays are symptomatic of the drop in standards in society as a whole, surely? BTW Britain is one of the most securalist countries in Europe (the world even!) - no-one goes to church, no-one believes in religion, no-one cares - except on Saturday when their football team is playing - huh?? What's this sanctamoniuos nonsense about 'Protestant Scotland'? It's all nonsense: so "F**k the Pope" should be banned, but "F**K anybody" per se is OK, huh?? If the SFA wants to stop the bad behaviour and foul-mouthed dirges, or sectarian songs et al, then it must deduct points without warning, from all the culprits - who needs any more warnings? Everybody's aware of the problem! Surely, it's the only way any of the fans (in this case Rangers) will ever learn. IN fact it might even make the league more interesting that it has been for years!

123

JJ52,

05/08/2007 08:13:14

When both Rabgers and Celtic get points deducted,only then will fans beleive the SFA are serious. They will use every means to hit Hearts, who have a very small minority( unlike both the OF). But that's because the SFA are scared of the OF.

124

Dubai,

05/08/2007 08:21:22

120 in Lagos Nigeria at moment paying taxes. 121 fact: many people in Northern Ireland are looking for relatives bodies. Are they bigoted? I have worked with pretty well every nationality in my career. Am I bigoted because i have an opinion on Ireland? Is it bigot behavior for me to be still outraged at the unpunished murders of women and children by the Irish RA.

125

Scota Nostra,

On a boat in the Firth of Clyde 05/08/2007 08:23:07

I wonder how many"of the loyal and true" Rangers supporters who attended yesterday's match complained to the police or stewards? One way of solving this problem is for the real supporters to complain loudly and often until it stops. If the police in London can send plain clothes officers into the crowds to identify the wrongdoers, then why can't the Scottish police stamp out this nonsense which makes Scotland a laughing stock throughout the football world?

126

Dubai,

05/08/2007 08:25:22

Or should I only be outraged if it was a Protestant woman or child.

127

1875 Always 1 better than the Hertz,

05/08/2007 08:28:38

#125

Small minority or not your lot are not beyond reproach here. You know it's been going on for some time and you now know the rules so deal with it.

This will be sorted this year

128

BOB THE RABID DOG,

Carstairs Crew 05/08/2007 08:29:41

Let's all listen very carefully today at the songs being sung at the piggery.

129

Mobat,

05/08/2007 08:37:58

Investigate and if found guilty fine 3 points, next time fine six points, next time 12. same applies for any other club, the real supporters will then police this.

130

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:39:41

131

Rangers arent playing today.

They played yesterday.

131

BOB THE RABID DOG,

Carstairs Crew 05/08/2007 08:40:56

Cheer up celtic fans.

You're that scared of Rangers winning the league you want us to have points deducted.

And for what? The only people "offended" were not even at the game.
If any celtic fan is upset by our songs, Don't Watch The Game!!!!

132

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:41:15

132

Too lenient.

They have been warned repeatedly.

I'm sick of this.

It shames Scotland.

The Club played a key role in creating this problem.

Close them down.

They can "apply" to re-join football when they embrace civilisation.

133

BOB THE RABID DOG,

Carstairs Crew 05/08/2007 08:41:31

#133 There's only one piggery as you well know...

134

Albert Kidd's 86 allstars,

Melbourne 05/08/2007 08:41:41

#126 You can be offended by anything you like Dubai, you just should not use it as you and so many of your ilk do to try and justify the pathetic behaviour that is constantly displayed by both sides of your bitter little divide...
I am absolutely aware that It is only Rangers fans that have been caught this time and traditionally the rangers 'support' is more vociferous in their inflamitory and vilifying comment, but the problem is NOT who said what and when.
You both do it and use the actions of the other side to justify your own stupidity. Your reply to my post has nothing to do with the article itself but everything to do with the point i was making, thank you for being so blind to your own predjudice and thus proving my point even more...

135

Shug,

05/08/2007 08:43:32

How on earth are clubs supposed to stop fans singing sectarian or otherwise abusive songs? Fining the clubs or docking points is hellishly unfair on the clubs. Presumably what they are hoping will happen is that peer pressure from other fans will sort out the bad ones. Optimistic I think. A much better option would be to ban the fans, all of them e.g. problems this Saturday, then must play next home game behind closed doors. If its an away game then no away support allowed into the game.

From what I have seen of Scottish Football games there seems to be too much focus on Rangers when the chat at Hearts/Hibs games, to take but one example is just as bad.

136

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:43:47

134

The game is watched in many places all over the world.

Your behabviour shames Scotland.

Filth.

Close them down.

PS: straight football, I reckon Celtic will win by 10 - 12 points. However, with points deduction for filth, Gers may see relegation or closure.

137

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:45:02

138

Rangers....because they are far far worse than all the rest combined.

Rangers....because the Club played a key role in the creation of the problem.

138

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:45:44

137

both do it?

Rangers AND Hearts?

139

Sláine,

05/08/2007 08:46:19

The 2 options in dealing with this blatant display of defiance by the supporters of RFC are;

1. The SFA hammer RFC in line with all their indications prior to the season's start and deduct 3 points from rangers and give sufficient proof that they mean what they say.

OR

2. Ally Mcoist and Walter Smith do the honourable thing and make it publicly known that if it happens again they will remove the team from the pitch and forfeit the game in progress AND will KEEP ON doing so until the moronic minority truly get the message.

That should sort it once and for all...

#131 - Listen as hard as you can, don't miss one second, maybe you'll learn something, I could be wrong, but I don't think so, see we're smarter than that. We know the importance of winning the league and qualifying for the Champions League thus widening the financial gulf between us and rangers, your fellow followers obviously don't...

...Ah well, they say that ignorance is bliss...

...that must make RFC the most blissfull club in the world.......

140

Alex.,

05/08/2007 08:47:26

I don't want to be ruled by Mecca, Moscow, Rome or London. These songs are sung to wind the opposing side up and yesterday the Rangers supporters were seeing how far they can go and whether the threats to deduct points will be carried out. Let's see what happens. Or will it be another warning and punish a 'lesser side' later for accusing a player or side of being gay?

141

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:48:45

No individuals were identified.....says ra Northern Polis!

No chance of solving complex murder cases up there then.....if hundreds of vermin can chant FTP in front of scores of Polis....but ra Polis didnae see it!!!

Maybe we need new Polis up there too. Polis that think chanting FTP is unacceptable.

Where's Chris Patten?

142

Mobat,

05/08/2007 08:49:46

138

unfair on clubs c'mon, the so called fans that do this are the dross of society. Dropped points, missing euro football, losing revenue is what will make this happen.

although I don't disagree with games being played behind closed doors or a ban on away fans.

How did we stop racism at games anyway? can't the same process be applied? or is sectarianism Scotland's racism??

143

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 08:50:16

See the usual suspects and their altar egos are about,lets get one thing straight,this is a Protestant country and The Queen is Defender Of The Faith.If you don't like it go somewhere more accommodating to your needs,like rome.

144

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:50:27

136

Yep, and it will soon be closed after the filth's disgusting behaviour yesterday.

145

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 08:50:41

Dubai, (why?)
That you may be paying taxes in Lagos does not detract from the fact that you are working in a country that is not your own. Your small-minded and one-sided view of economic and social history obviously does not permit any rational consideration that you yourself may have left your home in order to seek a better life. Cheap jibes about the British welfare system in Ireland don't cut it pal. You are a deluded fool, and I don't think any of the more intelligent contributors to this thread will thank you for the handfuls of ignorant bile you choose to lob from Africa.

146

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:51:07

146

Aye...that's the stuff that'll get RFC closed. Well done.

147

Micropacer,

05/08/2007 08:52:31

Both Rangers and Celtic have the same problems with their away supports.

The away fans tend to be the hardcore that wont change their "fun" away day antics for anyone.

Last time Celtic played at Pittodrie they were singing about the IRA. Rangers sung FTP.

Two sides of the same coin - hence "Old Firm"

If I was running these clubs id stop accepting Away tickets for a while - it costs them nothing just the other SPL clubs. It also stops these knuckledraggers spouting their bile!

148

nearlyneurotic,

F.F.A.F.FootballingFansAgainstFraud !! 05/08/2007 08:52:45

Someone ought to inform the government and their scientists that there has been another serious outbreak of foot in mouth,this time north of the border at the Caledonian Stadium.
Early signs are that environment agencies are concentrating their efforts on the source of this outbreak as being at Edmiston Dive Govan.
Ipox is the home of Rags F.C. and a statement released from their Chairman confirms that they are fully co-operating with the Government and all of its clean up agency departments as requested.

Sounds kind of familiar that statement.......

149

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 08:52:57

146
(Sorry to descend to this guys)
Who conferred the title "Defender of the Faith"?

150

Sláine,

05/08/2007 08:53:07

#143 - So that makes it alright does it?

Tell me, do you think that the best way to find land mines is to do the bouncy-bouncy with your fingers in your ears?

"yesterday the Rangers supporters were seeing how far they can go and whether the threats to deduct points will be carried out"

...tic tic BOOM.......

151

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:53:08

145

RFC - the Club! - played a key role in the creation and maintenace of their problem.

They worked long and hard to be recognised as THE gathering place for Scotlands bigots.

The have sowed....now they reap.

Close them.

152

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:54:38

152

John....please...no.

153

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 08:55:59

151

NN

LOL! Very good.

I foresee Davie with another power point presentation.....taking all steps necessary blah blah blah!!

Close them.

154

Sláine,

05/08/2007 08:56:39

152

John...please...yes.

155

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 08:56:48

chata change the record and swear allegiance to the Queen and the Crown.

156

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 09:00:43

Defender of the faith was confirmed by Parliament,don't they teach history at denominational schools ?

157

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:02:21

152, 157

Well....if we go there....let's recognise that the faith she defends is the antithesis of RFC.

158

greengoblin,

05/08/2007 09:03:34

Celtic FC was created in order to help poor and badly treated people in Glasgow. These people were being discriminated against not because they were Irish or Catholic, but primarily because they were 'foriegn' or 'different'.
It is very sad that some people want to hold on to these medieval predjudices. Imagine an American Football team in founded by black people 100 years ago. Do you think it would be tolerated that opposition teams sing KKK songs?
The IRA songs are unneccessary, but are a reaction towards the oppression that Ireland suffered under the English. Hate breeds hate. It must stop now.

159

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:03:43

159

Looking at your various posts, and those of others, I am relieved that I went to a School with standards.

160

FTH22inarow,

Edinburgh 05/08/2007 09:04:40

Both sides are as bad as each other, its Glasgows problem not Scotland, you will not here any fof that kind of bile at Tynecastle on Monday night from either set of fans.

161

Adso,

05/08/2007 09:05:23

The police are well paid for policing our matches - how come they cannot see any of the hundreds that chant their bigotted nonsense? I thought sectarianism was now against the law - no?

162

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:05:25

158

that's your problemo, son.

Who's promulgating sectarianism right now?

Clue: FTP was loud and clear on TV, radio, and broadband yesterday afternoon.

Which School s did they go to?

163

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:05:51

163

Both sides?

Rangers AND Hearts?

164

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:06:25

164

Yep....we need new Polis too.

165

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:07:12

161

Solution is obvious: close RFC.

166

ordinaryperson,

Greenock. 05/08/2007 09:07:25

You watch the SFA and SPL. It will be a little fine and nothing else. They do not have the guts to deuct points off the the old firm, when either of them commit offence but the rest of the teams, they will throw the book at them.

167

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:07:55

158

Lizzie Saxe Coburg Gotha is a commoner like you and I.

168

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:08:28

169

Only RFC have offended.

Why punisg CFC?

169

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:08:40

* punish

170

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:11:04

How about this?

For their filth yesterday. let's deduct FOUR points.

171

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 09:11:54

What is sectarian about singing in support of the Crown and its great victories,exposing those who are seditious and would see the Crown brought down,never! God Save The Queen.....or is that sectarian also.

172

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 09:13:25

Who's promulgating sectarianism right now? thats easy chatadiddy your schools.

173

Hugh Hefner,

London 05/08/2007 09:14:05

I would hate to see Rags-MiddenFC deducted points because it will take the shine off of our title win. The third humiliation in a row should be he sweetest but not if dirtbagminginfacesFC have points deducted!

Simple as that!

174

Young Asa,

Fife 05/08/2007 09:14:31

This garbage should have been sorted out 40 years ago when both tribes were responsible not only for singing their garbage but for carrying knives etc , urinating / spitting on everybody and everthing in sight and terrorising every stadium they visited.

Todays problem is a pretty tame one in comparison.

Both clubs should be been closed down and thrown out of Scottish Football years ago

175

Hugh Hefner,

London 05/08/2007 09:15:21

174 - its not mate - think you will find that its the other stuff that was deemed offensive!

I like pies too - but Im skinny not sure why!

176

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 09:18:12

Lizzie Saxe Coburg Gotha is a commoner like you and me,really here's me thinking She is our Queen and your a tim,how wrong can one be,I blame the funny separatist schools.

177

Finbar 71,

Nottingham,UK 05/08/2007 09:23:52

How sad that 2 minutes into the game the brain deid brigade start their filth.Rangers will be hammered by this as will any team's fans who break these rules.Decent Rangers fans in conjunction with the Police need to deal with this or the club is finished.No amount of finger pointing elsewhere is going to change what happened.The club need to id away fans and right the wrongs that they have created by nurturing this for 120 years.Yes steps have been made however noone from Rangers has came out and said this must stop as it is morally wrong.Meantime on to the pitch- was very impressed by Rangers and Ferguson looks rejuvenated.Look forward to the return leg in Zeta.Hail hail.

178

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 09:27:58

Finbar I think you will find that if Rangers were to challenge any sanctions in court,they would be set aside and quashed.What court in this land is going to condemn people for singing in support of the very institution that the Courts represent.Yes thats right the Crown.

179

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:29:43

179

Aye....she's the Imposter in the Palace!

Numerous successions have been shown to be fundamentally flawed.

She is no more "royal" than you and I.

Lizzie Saxe Coburg Gotha is a German commoner.

180

,

05/08/2007 09:30:50
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181

,

05/08/2007 09:32:44
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182

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:33:25

177

Why close CFC wehen they have done nought wrong, Asa?

183

Mercutio,

Falkirk 05/08/2007 09:33:50

180 comments about this shows we are still the best wee sectarian country in the world, with both these Football "Clubs enjoying" the proceeds

184

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 09:42:04

186

No, it shows that one group (usually Gers) argue their "right" to sing sectarian filth at football matches, whilst others are angry about their bigotry, and angrier that the "Authorities" acquiesce in their filth.

The tide is turning.

The good people are beginning to make progress.

Scotland's shame will soon be beaten.

Close RFC.

185

Hibz seven,

05/08/2007 09:46:10

What we should be talking about at the start of the season is "football" and how different sets of teams win their games and how fans cheer them along.

I am embarrassed at times when I hear songs (at any football match) have nothing to do with football. Indeed, these songs give our nation and footballing culture a bad reputation.

Football is supposed to be a friends and family day out were you can enjoy the game and hopefully see your team win. Hate is a strong word to use at any football match and should be kept off the terraces.

Football is a “sport” and every individual should be aloud to enjoy that sport without hearing offensive material from the terraces.

186

ochone, ochone,

Sauchie, Clacks 05/08/2007 09:48:29

the Scotsman should think shame of it's self, (if that's possible), there are comments, not to mention attachments here that should lead to the contributers beeing banned at least until theu grow up, which in most cases will mean the rest of their lives.

Highlight the bigotry, but don't let the bigots loose on here as well.

187

Young Asa,

Fife 05/08/2007 09:53:45

#185 For the reasons stated. You obviously havent been on the receiving end ..or you think its acceptable...You are as bad as each other and the fact that the subject of the old firm continues to be discussed in public in this manner is no longer acceptable to me. Presumably you never stood on the terracings among them. I will never ever forget the experience of warm urine running down the back of my legs thanks to a beer bellyed glaswegian who thinks its ok behaviour.

188

,

05/08/2007 09:56:52
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189

Waitin´and hopin,

On top 05/08/2007 10:02:25

No one in their right mind can condone the sectarian singing that took place yesterday by a minority of clowns. some idiot said earlier that it was 98% of the support, such mindless comments are unhelpful. Rangers are doing all in their power to stamp out this bile but they need help and they aren´t getting it from thr Police. To say that the Police couldn´t identify any of the offenders not only blows away the 98% theory but makes you ask if they can be bothered.Rangers hould only sell tickets to members and insist on more arrests and meaningful prosecutions.
Further, there is nothing to be gained by the so called Celtic support taking a moral high ground on this, they sing anti British songs which are equally offensive particularly when a large part of them live in Britain ad take the benefits of it.

190

Mercutio,

Falkirk 05/08/2007 10:02:54

Any of the posters from both sides of the sectarian divide read Gerald Warners article.

191

,

05/08/2007 10:07:20
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192

samcdonald22,

Its Wrong 05/08/2007 10:07:42

If the rules say you cant then you cant! You arnt aloud to drink and if u do you get thrown out the ground, so we choose not too!

At the end of the day the sun goes down

193

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:08:13

193

The sectarian divide?

Nah...it's just good v evil.

Look closely.

Some here favour bigotry.

Some are against.

194

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:09:41

192

Substantiate your claim that " large part of them (Celts) live in Britain ad take the benefits of it."

195

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:10:54

190

Can you answer my question, please, Asa?

196

Concrete Overcoat,

aghast 05/08/2007 10:12:14

I dont go to football anymore, i have better uses for my time but follow it through the media and if i were a Rangers supporter i think i would read/watch what was being said about my team.

If i did then went to a game and sang something that i knew was POTENTIALLY going to get my team into trouble, what kind of supporter would i be....??

I never believed it before but it now looks like there are people out there who use Rangers as a vehicle to congregate and spout anti-catholic bile.

Please Celtic fans dont show yourselves up today.

197

David1,

05/08/2007 10:13:10

I agree with the other comments suggesting stopping taking the away tickets.

Rangers (and everyone else) can only realistically be held responsible for what goes on in their own grounds. Rangers had no powers to throw out the bigots in Inverness' ground yesterday. The police did have the powers, but took no action that I could see from my view in the North stand.

Stop the away support attending.

198

Samuel,

05/08/2007 10:15:17

As I have already stated, I'd like to see all the religious/historical/politic/Republican/Loyalist stuff cut out of modern Scottish football and would favour Rangers rejecting the away ticket allocaton, even if it would sadly cripple the smaller clubs.

I would like to point out to gloating Celtic fans that Rangers fans have no racist problem despite your lies and Celtic are not as innocent as you'd like us to believe since we heard you lot sing about "orange b's" on many occasions home and away just last season as well as all the terrorist loving nonsense.

I say this not to bring Celtic into this story, but to respond to the crude lies and gloating point-scoring of Celtic fans who are exercising gross hypocrisy.

I say once more, all of this religious/political/Republican/Loyalist nonsense needs to be cut out from modern day football.
Remember that the people suffering most today are us decent Rangers fans who have all been tarred with the same brush as the idiotic intransigent vocal minority who the rest of us were trying to shut up. Sadly the police turned a blind eye wouldn't assist us, which lead to a few of us being threatened by this.

Also, the SFA/SPL can't really punish anyone till they publish explicit guidelines about what is or is not acceptable. As I said I's favour all of this religious/political/Republican/Loyalist nonsense being banned.

It's 21st century Scotland FFS.

199

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:15:32

Question all Gers should be asking this morning:

It's 2007, WHY hasnt The RFC Board rooted out this crap?

WHY should ordinary decent football fans (Gers and others) be subjected to this filth?

WHY have the Board allowed these people to prevail at Rangers for sooooooooooo long?

WHY did the Club work so long and hard to build up this mindset?

WHY has the Club not apologised for it's role in cultivating bigotry?

200

Plonker,

05/08/2007 10:15:39

Unbelieveable. Rangers seem to have being doing a lot to educate the masses. They also seem to be sincere - they have to be given the possible punishments in this modern area.

However, one wonders what took them so long - why did they have to wait until effectively legislation forced them into action ? In many way, RFC deserve these eejits.

201

Mercutio,

Falkirk 05/08/2007 10:16:12

Chatanooga you are obviously a self righteous prig.

202

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:17:13

Samuel 201

Why did so many Gers make ape noises each time Bobo and Didier got the ball at Ibrox?

Why did they do the same each time Marvin Andrews got it when he played for Livi?

Please explain.

203

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:17:31

204

Thanks. I accept your surrender.

204

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:18:15

203

They DO deserve them.....they cultivated bigotry and badness at their Club through much of its putrid existence.

205

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:19:32

Samuel 201

Alternative approach: close RFC.

They've been warned repeatedly.

Close them.

206

Penfold69,

Edinburgh 05/08/2007 10:20:23

What song were the rangers fans singing about jock stein, and what is this shameful period in celtics and scotlands history he is supposed to have known about?

207

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:20:42

But David 200, you studiouisly ignore the fact that The Rangers FC spent decades cultivating bigotry and badness.

Close them.

208

,

05/08/2007 10:22:30
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209

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:24:46

209

Additional Info:

sad passing of mrs jean stein
Paul Cuddihy
IT is with great sadness that Celtic Football Club announce the passing of Mrs Jean Stein, wife of Celtic legend Jock Stein.

Mrs Stein, who died yesterday (Thursday, August 2), will be sadly missed.

The thoughts and prayers of everyone at Celtic Football Club are with the Stein family at this sad time.

The Club would also request that the privacy of the Stein family is respected at this time.

210

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 10:26:14

Samuel,
Some fair points there. I wouldn't fancy telling a mob of bears to shut it without any back-up. The Police certainly have a role to play here.
I would take issue with your comments about the OO, who do not constitute a religion, but a virulently anti-Catholic organisation. Denials will be treated as obfuscatory at best.
Nevertheless, good luck to you and other Rangers men like you.

211

seeker of the truth,

at home... 05/08/2007 10:27:04

I was going to enter this debate, but then realised that, as I'm a protestant, season-ticket-holding, supporter of the World-famous Celtic, I'll be hated by the majority of posters from both sides of the 'divide'. Aw well, c'mon the Hoops!!

212

the boke,

05/08/2007 10:33:04

The answer is simply and yet will Rangers get the support they need? Remove our away support for the entire season as a first step. You can hardly call them inspiring yesterday more like embarrasing. THIS WONT happen as being the team with the highest away average in the SPL other teams will not support it, with the understandable exception of Celtic. Video the singers and ask the public to identify and then at least publicise their names (name and shame). If this is really a crime and an item of high priority why dont the police go under cover as a pair arrest a few numpties at one game, prosecute and hey presto nae mare chanting. I dont think this will happen as it will suit far more people and punlic bodies to slowly stew Rangers and soak them dry of fines and points whilst achieving nothing for the public interest. Another thing if we are serious about this and its not just an anti Rangers crusade will all offensive chanting be reported by the 4th official or is it only swearing and mud slinging by Rangers fans that is offensive? Is whos the ******* in the black, We hate jimmy hill hes a ****, sheep ********* ******** (Neil Lemmon anyone). Somehow I think stopping all this will be much to complicated for the authorities much easier to go for the highest profile and juiciest target.

213

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:34:07

214

Come on in....truth seeker. Have your say.

You'll be welcome here amongst decent people.

214

MickyFinn,

Central scotland 05/08/2007 10:35:12

I wonder if the SFA SPL and Gordon Smith will have the bottle to hand out a points deduction to Rangers.
Some how I doubt it.

215

Mercutio,

Falkirk 05/08/2007 10:35:45

#206 Chatanooga I would like to refute your inference of surrender but by using the word for denial it might set you off on the wrong track, you are not only self righteous but pompous and full of cant.

216

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:36:36

215

RFC are pursued NOT as the "highest profile and juiciest target", but as the worst bigots in Europe.

RFC are - by far - the worst in Scotland.

I reckon they're worst in Britain and Europe too.

Just close them.

217

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 10:38:31

#214
Seeker,
You've got a season ticket. You're a Tim. Religion doesn't come into it.

218

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:41:15

218

Aye, of course you refute it, Sir, but you surrendered nonetheless.

You cannot match me in debate, but you do not have the integrity to admit that I am right.

Your only option is the gracious withdrawal, otherwise known as.....surrender.

219

,

05/08/2007 10:43:52
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220

David1,

05/08/2007 10:45:51

Rangers can only root out the bigots at Ibrox.

It was up to ICT and the police to throw them out yesterday.

If the other clubs want to continue to enjoy the revenues from the travelling Rangers support then they must do more.

If Rangers are docked points then I believe they will have no alternative but to stop taking away tickets, which is effectively a financial penalty to all the other clubs (with the exeption of Celtic).

ICT and others cannot afford to lose that revenue.

221

gerry mac,

05/08/2007 10:46:11

anybody watch groundhog day on tv last night?

222

MickyFinn,

Central scotland 05/08/2007 10:46:51

Unfortunately the so called rangers fans involved in this chanting etc are inbred with this hatred from an early age. Just go onto Bebo or likeminded sites and find their websites all full of sectarian guff.
Sad that in 21st Century stuck in the 17th!
Sectarism is Scotlands Shame.

223

Samuel,

05/08/2007 10:47:54

Chatanooga, they did not make monkey chants. That's one the lies often put about. They were booed that game. Larsson was not booed, thus proving your inconsistency.

I did however, hear some monkey chants directed at Russell Latapy, a black ex-Rangers player albeit my an admittedly small minority of Celtic fans in last season's League Cup tie against Falkirk. Despite those few idiots and the disgraceful Mark Walters incident which some Celtic fans have equally disgracefully tried to revise, I do not think that Celtic have any real racist problem and neither do Rangers.

224

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 10:48:04

#222
Leaving it all behind was precisely the point of my post, mate.

225

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:49:28

223 David1

that's all true, son, but again you studioisly avoid the fact that The Rangers FC worked long and hard to cultivate bigotry amongst their follow followers.

Punish RFC.....they caused it.

226

seeker of the truth,

heading off to Paradise... 05/08/2007 10:52:02

Am just about to leave for the game today. Me, a Jew, a Moslem and a Sikh (he's really a ManU fan) all ready to Hail the Hoops. The funny thing about this post is...it's the truth! Allez les Verde st Blancs!!!!

227

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 10:52:16

226

Sorry Samuel....you're lying.

I heard them do it.

Scotland heard them do it.

Marvin Andrews spoke out when he joined RFC about the treatment he had had art Ibrox previously.

You can only recover from your problems if you face facts, Samuel.

Lies wont help you.

228

FreeAethist,

05/08/2007 10:59:00

Sadly, #227, like most places where institutional racism was/is 'normal', Scotland probably won't move on until injustices are recognised and resolved. My family, like many others, had to leave Scotland because of discrimination and lack of opportunity for the 'natives'. Football simply reflects these divisions. Cheers!

229

happysnail,

Stirling 05/08/2007 11:04:14

Would someone please like to tell me where Celtic FC is mentioned in the piece at the top. I have searched everywhere, not one word about Celtic.

230

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

05/08/2007 11:05:17

You will hear pro-IRA songs at away Celtic matches, but I'm tired og saying this , being pro -IRA is not the same as anti-protestant.

Pro-IRA is not a religious or anti-religious stance.

It is a political stance.

231

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 11:06:03

#231
I hear you, but I think that we both know that there will never be a Scottish "Truth and Reconciliation" process. So we move on, onwards and upwards.

232

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

05/08/2007 11:07:10

Many people , including most Celtic fans , find pro-IRA sentiment deeply offensive.

But pro-IRA sentiment does not involve any attack on any religion.

233

Mercutio,

Falkirk 05/08/2007 11:08:06

#221 Chatanooga, surrender is capitulation and I say No. Your debating skills exist in your one track imagination as Kipling would say;
Here is a health, my brothers, to you,
However your prayers are said,
And praised be Allah Who gave me two
Separate sides to my head!

I now withdraw.

234

Malc.F,

france 05/08/2007 11:12:32

Just an idea. Why don't the SFA deduct Rangers 3 points for yesterdays vile rascist chanting to be restored at the end of the season if there are no repetitions.Could make for an exciting end to the season.The only problem is that it may take until the end of the season for the implications to penetrate the thick skulls of the perpetrators.
I am not a Celtic supporter but I agree that Celtic's songs are more about British oppression of Ireland than sectarian and rascist abuse, but it would help if they showed their hated rivals the way by stopping singing these songs if only to show that they have always been more tolerant and better liked than Rangers by the truly neutral atheist like me.

235

David1,

05/08/2007 11:12:43

228

The problem is that Rangers punishment will result in the smaller clubs being punished financially too.

We are all in this together, with the exeption of Celtic who will feel no pain if Rangers are docked points.

I fully understand your view on punishing Rangers from a Celtic supporters pov, but please recognise the problems that that punishment would lead to for the other clubs.

Its up to us all to effectively police the travelling support at our grounds, or risk losing them.

236

Albert Kidd's 86 allstars,

Melbourne 05/08/2007 11:16:57

Chatanooga, I would like to refer you to every other post i have put up on this thread today, Just to make it easier for you they were #'s 95, 118, 121, and 137.
People like you, whether Rangers or Celtic in affiliation ARE THE PROBLEM, stop pointing the finger at everyone else and accept that the real problem lies with ALL OF YOU who perpetuate this inane slanging match that has been going on for over a century, Celtic are as Guilty as Rangers for past transgressions and as this is the entire basis for your loathing of each other, it's high time you all, that's Celtic and Rangers Fans, just got over it and stopped.

237

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:17:10

236

See ya!

238

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:18:59

239

Sorry, son, you're mistaken.

You're deluded.

If my anti bigotry comments here have offended you then.....TOUGH - YOU'RE THE PROBLEM.

I despise the bigots and the bigotry - if that gives you a problem then YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.

239

We don't care!,

Earth that has evolved through millions of years 05/08/2007 11:19:25

Unbelievable that a 2000+ year old book of embellished stories can still cause so much trouble. Religion is the source of most evil and starts the majority of wars, you just have to read the claptrap on this page to see that. For safe use your brains and look at the scientific proof and if you need some kind of faith to get through your life keep it to yourself, now shut up and lets get on with the football.

240

,

05/08/2007 11:21:32
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241

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:22:18

237

Some sense there, Malc....but I'd favour an approach that showed the filth that we mean business.

Deduct FOUR points for yesterday's bigotry. They won three for their victory, but go back one. Last in the league on the first weekend. Brilliant!

Oh, and promise them that the punishment doubles each time they re-offend.

3, 6, 12, 24......ie relegation\closure.

That's the RIGHT punishment for bigotry in Scottish Football in 2007.

242

,

05/08/2007 11:23:28
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243

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:24:31

243

Do you have a problem with the Boys of the Old Brigade being sung at Celtic away games?

244

Mandela,

jJohannesburg 05/08/2007 11:24:46

The chickens are coming home to roost. Its the MAJORITY of rangers supporters who are bigots NOT the minority.....you lot will never ever learn.Hell mend you.

245

,

05/08/2007 11:25:01
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,

05/08/2007 11:25:49
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Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:25:56

242

Those who sang and chanted bigotted filth were as fond of the Bible as you are, heathen.

They are heathens like you.

248

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:26:41

248

My guess is that I attend Prod Church more often than that s***.

249

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:27:25

249

Explain why hating a football team is bigotted.

I despise bigots and bigotry.

250

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:28:01

249

Aye...that's the stuff that'll get RFC closed. Well done!

251

Gazzza,

Berkshire 05/08/2007 11:28:18

I cannot believe that some people are saying that CFC have not offended. Every time they sing their IRA parodies they offend the vast majority of British People not just Rangers Fans.

Religion for me is something which deserves respect as does the leaders of all churches whether that be Pope Benedict, The Queen of England, The Chief Rabbi or whoever however the IRA who cared not about creed or colour and killed innocent people indisciminently were nothing but filth who deserved to be smitten from the midst of all. That the UK showed a pathetically poor attitude in dealing with them effectively is simply unfortunate.

So as far as I am concerned Rangers need to sort out their act and take severe action against anyone found making these unacceptab;le chants and Celtic similarly should rid their club of all those who continue to in any way chant in support of the IRA

252

!,

UK 05/08/2007 11:31:12

There is no place for sectarian chanting in football but i guess in scotland it's ok because scotland is so screwed up. How can you call yourself football SUPPORTERS if you behave like that.

253

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:32:36

255

True....fans of The Rangers FC should hang their heads in shame.

254

Albert Kidd's 86 allstars,

Melbourne 05/08/2007 11:32:37

Chatterbox, #241, Thank you for helping to further prove my point about finger pointing and the insidious and frankly boring repitition thereof.
It truely amazes me that so many of the Old firm supporters have no idea that they are as bad as each other, I will leave you all to it as nothing i say seems to make any difference, This problem will never, NEVER go away while people like you and most others on these threads continue to question only the opposition and not themselves. Thank you once more for giving me absolute creedence to think of you all (idiots on these threads that is, I recognise many OF supporters are just that and not merely haters of the other side) as bigots and fools I'll go back to the Embra threads where at least most of the time is spent talking about football, not religion or simply which team has worse fans...
While The Chief...

255

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:33:07

254

Who says that fans of CFC have not offended?

You?

256

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:33:47

254

Gazza

WHY are YOU saying that fans of CFC have not offended?

257

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:35:43

257

You've plainly NOT read my posts.

Suggestion: if you're gonna attack someone....read his posts first! Seems obvious to me!

I say Gers are the worst....because.....Gers are the worst! And I evidenced my point.

Does that upset you? Thenm YOU have a problem.

258

Pud Pu,

NYC 05/08/2007 11:36:05

i cant sleep cos some mexicans outside are havin a party. noisy bams.
i woke up and read this.
Murray and king wattie et Super ally have all nailed their colours to the political mast with their backing of our glorious union and our lovely majesty. the orange shirts and the brilliant 1707 celebrations as well as the anti sNP stuff shows which side they are on ie MINE. They haave all repeatedly moved into political arena which some say has no place i football but i know it dus.
Anyway. Cumberland came saw a slaughtered the Highland rebels. they were better off at the end of it with nice place in British empire doing work for the greata English masters.
Well done lads at yesterdays match. great singing. some of us WILL fight to defend the british way of life.
Roman despotism versus protestant libery. I know which i want
Rule Britania and remember Cumberland and Monk

259

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:37:10

257

Albert

I'm a Celtic supporter - NOT an Old Firm supporter.

260

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:39:14

261

Rangers and their fans are the antithesis of Protestantism.

Which part of the King James inspired the FTP chants?

261

Gazzza,

Berkshire 05/08/2007 11:39:49

Why is it that people can go and watch football in England and not be caught up in this religion thing.
I attended games at Goodison for many years and religion was never mentioned. We had the same rivalry with other clubs as is there in Scotland but I tell you what if someone had try to bring religion into football they would have been unceremoniously kicked out the stadium and would not have been welcomed back.

What is more the people of England to a man detest the IRA and some of us find it hilarious that a bunch of people in Glasgow fly an Irish flag even though they are Scottish. If any one tried to chnat there pro IRA garbage they would find themselves thrown on the same scrap pile as the other morons.

262

ordinaryperson,

Greenock. 05/08/2007 11:41:39

Chatanooga.
You miss my point. I know CFC have not commited any offence yet. I am saying that the SFA and SPL will treat them lightly compared to other clubs who offend in the future. They run the SPL and will not get punished there

263

,

05/08/2007 11:41:57
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264

Samuel,

05/08/2007 11:42:21

Chatanooga, it may disappoint you, but I was at the game in question and Balde was booed,as was Agathe, or heavy and late challenges. There were no monkey chants, unlike when Latapy played against Celtic. I have never heard Marvin Andrews make those claims.

Either way, neither club has a racist problem, although Scotland and UK do have a growing racist/islamaphobic problem, due to the current political climate.

Also, you seem to claim that Rangers started this problem, whereas Ranger started purely as a football club without any bars and despite what many believe, Catholics have played for Rangers throughout their history {Catholics who signed for Rangers before Johnston include, before the end of World War I: Pat Lafferty (1886), Tom Dunbar (1891-1892), J Tutty (1899-1900), Archie Kyle (1904-1908), Willie Kivlichan (1906-1907), Colin Mainds (1906-1907), Tom Murray (1907-1908), William Brown (1912), Joe Donnachie (circa.1914-1918) and John Jackson (1917). Thereafter, Catholic players prior to Mo Johnston's signing include: Laurie Blyth (1951-1952), Don Kitchenbrand (1955-1956), Hugh O'Neill (1976), John Spencer (1985-1992). (Bill Murray, "The Old Firm - Sectarianism, Sport and Society in Scotland (John Donald Publishers, 1984) pp 64-5}.

Also, and I'm not trying to score any points, but merely to clarify matters and disprove your lies, Celtic did start out with a Catholic identity, which isn't a problem, but they did have a sectarian signing policy which they got rid of when it was felt it was holding them back from success. The myth of "all-inclusiveness" in 1888 is rather transparent if you read what Brother Walfird wrote in your founding articles. All-inclusiveness, is very much a late 20th century and onwards notion.

Rangers developed a Protestant identity in response to Celtic's Catholic one because the indigenous Scottish people and press wanted a Protestant club to rival Celtic and Queens Park, the original choice, we

265

,

05/08/2007 11:42:38
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266

'Hezza,

05/08/2007 11:42:52

Bunch of midless bigots - as I've said before, they should get docked 3 points every time sectarian chanting is heard from more than, say, 30 fans. It would self-police very, very quickly.

267

WhoshaggedalltheBhoys?,

Ulster 05/08/2007 11:43:43

Calum Gluebag , i reckon you , and people like you are the root cause of the problem. You are the haters . You live in Britain yet you all sing about how much you hate the British .And to Sailor Pat , Irish Republicanism IS sectarian . I have witnessed it first hand over the years in Ulster. They have killed and maimed in the name of "freedom" . Decimated the very towns and cities they claimed to be fighting for . They embarked on a sustained sectrian murder campaign which spawned incidents such as Kingsmills , where they lined up the workers outside their van and sperated the Catholic driver (whom the told to run up the road ) and the Protestants , then they shot dead 10 innocent protestants in cold blood. The massacre at the Mountain Lodge Pentecostal church in Darkley when the cowardly IRA entered the place of worship and shot dead 3 church elders in cold blood. The IRA's border campaign where they actively sought Protestant families with one son then killed that son thus ensuring the family died with him enabling Catholics to take over the land left behind. The list could go on and on but a few examples are sufficient . Don't come on here acting all holier than thou when , in reality , you're just as bigotted as the rest .

268

Pud Pu,

NYC 05/08/2007 11:44:11

its just amazing reading the posts how so manay of you have fallen for the snakes in the grass. they'll get inside us and destroy us. the british protestnt way of life that cromwell fought so hard for will be lost. remember - our Dutch brothers will not come and rescue us this time

269

Not Me,

..a station on the candy bar express....... 05/08/2007 11:45:39

-John-

How are you - it is of course no surprise that you are here today fighting the good fight......I am only a little saddened that once again some Rangers supporters have provided you with so much ammunition.....

Bob the Rabid Dog

Whilst i am happy to accept that you have a right to Freedom of Expression - surely with that right come some responsibilities such as not being offensive, rascist or sectarian......

.....anyway the simplest of points is that whether you agree with it or not you (and I) have been asked to stop chanting such slogans by the footballing authorities and whether you like it or not it is their game and they could very well decide eventually to take away our baw........and then you will have let Chatanooga and his ilk win......surely that cannot be what you are hoping for.

Song moment - New world Man - surely you can see why.....

270

,

05/08/2007 11:46:06
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271

Pud Pu,

NYC 05/08/2007 11:46:25

269 - self police my ass. there are no grasses amongst the teddy bears . we are united

272

Samuel,

05/08/2007 11:47:43

Patrick O'Shaunnessy, your point-scoring effort backfires somewhat since Cetic fans were singing "orange b" several times, home and away, last year.

273

John Thomson1,

05/08/2007 11:50:14

Gazzza,
It's clearly obvious that you have no knowledge in this area of the game. Save your pontifications for the kids. If they're under 5.

274

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 11:51:59

268 No that was Richard the Lionheart,the popes murderer in chief masquerading as a crusader,crusader for what,if you dont become a tim your gettin done in,very civilised and tolerant.

275

,

05/08/2007 11:53:29
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,

05/08/2007 11:54:12
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Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:54:17

274

SOB?

What's the problemo with that?

278

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:55:08

278

cant you see your team will soon be relegated\closed?

279

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:56:27

NM272

Thanks.

Good WILL prevail over evil.

The evils will either shut up or their evil club will be closed.

280

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 11:58:02

280 not a keyboard gangster,just a pest and you know what happens to pests,where's the fly spray!

281

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:58:06

Samuel 267

No claim no blame - shame on you.

Each time Bobo\Didier got the ball there were ape noises.

Sad.

282

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:59:09

267

Samulel

You said I had told lies. Show me.

283

Princeton,

NJ 05/08/2007 11:59:41

As a Celtic fan, I admit we have a similar minority of morons who embarrass our club. While they may be a smaller minority of fans, that fact is irrelevant.

The fact that this happens only at away games tells us something. The only solutions are (a) use CCTV to identify the perpetrators, or (b) take stewards to the away games and identify the idiots by seat number and then ban them.

284

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 11:59:46

Samuel 267

List the known Catholics RFC played in the first team in the 40 years after WW2.

285

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:02:19

Samuel 267

Rangers didnt develop a Protestant identity.

They developed an ANTI CATHOLIC identity.

That's entirely different.

Do you understand that, Samuel?

The reality will dawn if\when you answer # 286 truthfully.

286

We don't care!,

Earth that has evolved through millions of years 05/08/2007 12:09:38

Chatanooga

hea·then: Spelled Pronunciation[hee-thuhn]

1. an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the God of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan.
2. an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person.

I do hope you meant definition #1, if so that's ok with me, if you meant #2 then you can go and F*** yourself with yir auld story book, and while yir at it away and jump on your cho choo and thump it somewhere where people give a f***.

287

,

05/08/2007 12:10:46
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288

Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 12:12:16

289. BOBO UMBONGONDO

I prefer you as numeru uno fatbasturdo.

289

Samuel,

05/08/2007 12:12:39

Chatanooga, they are listed in the post above. Celtic with a sectarian signing policy in 1888 and onwards until it hindered them, were founded and based upon an anti-Protestant identity.

I am merely pointing out facts, but you seem to be trying to score points.

We all know the issues and it's time to be moving on and we no longer want or can tolerate this Catholic/Protestant/Republican/Loyalist nonsense. It's the 21st century FFS. Give it a break.

290

Not Me,

..a station on the candy bar express....... 05/08/2007 12:13:23

-John-

Your point at 287 seems to me to be dealing in semantics .......

Surely the whole point of Protestantism is the fact that it was "anti-catholic" - could the same not be said about an overtly Catholic identity that it is anti - well, everything else.

Did the pope not recently state that only Catholics were true Christians? where that would leave the non christian community i don't know but as a statement it would seem to suggest that non catholic christians are just wasting their time.....

......you know in the getting into Heaven thing..... I was actually told as much by a Catholic priest prior to my wedding - still, moving on.

Message to the True Blues out there. Do you want the Rangers to win the league this season? Do you think it would be harder or easier for this to happen if the Rangers are deducted points? It really is that simple......

Song moment - I will follow (with pride)

291

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:14:15

288

I meant #2.

292

,

05/08/2007 12:14:53
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,

05/08/2007 12:16:18
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Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:17:11

291

Samuel

Are you unable to debate in truth?

Let me ask you again:

List the KNOWN Catholics RFC played in the first team in the 40 years after WW2.

Answer, please, Samuel....and TRUTH this time, please, if you're capable.

295

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:20:12

NM 292

Protestantism = Christianity = love thy neighbour

Rangers = anti catholic discrimination = hatred.

296

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 12:20:42

chattadiddy tim malloy kirrie tim,you must be a newby,it's your keystrokes that give you away,all one of you.fudscudder.

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,

05/08/2007 12:20:42
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Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 12:23:23

299. numeru uno fatbasturdo

Changed back have we. Try another of your many characters. I know them all.

299

,

05/08/2007 12:23:45
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David W.,

Detroit 05/08/2007 12:24:43

Bob and Pud, you sadly cling to your British and Protestant way of life, which is a relic. You can ptractice what you want as far as religion goes. Organized religion is mostly for fools anyway. But this crap about being the sterling majority in Scotland makes you both a couple of idiots.

I know, you have no persoal achievements to brad about, so you need to make salutes and sing songs to feel like a man. Losers.

301

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 12:26:38

Shameful singing by the idiots that call themselves football fans.

Deducting points is not the answer. CCTV and jailing is the answer. Get these scum off the streets of Scotland.

302

Samuel,

05/08/2007 12:27:54

Chatanooga, Can't you read the post in question? It lists several. Are you illiterate? Or are you just ignoring it and trying to score points.

I think your repeated behaviour and lies along with your persistent and petty point-scoring have exposed yourself as a bigot.

Please move on. You and all the sectarian hordes on both sides are holding Scotland back. Please drop your bigoted nonsense and move on.

Scotland does'nt want to hear your bigoted Catholic/Protestant/Republican/Loyalist garbage. Please ditch this trash and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

We are not interested in your sectarian lies.

303

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 12:28:33

Here's a wee test,does any Celtic supporter agree with the sentiments of the chattadiddy tosser and his altar egos who know all,except he knows sweet fug all.

304

,

05/08/2007 12:28:50
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,

05/08/2007 12:29:56
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Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 12:30:18

305. numeru uno fatbasturdo

One of your characters will agree. Which one?

307

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 12:32:22

Guys we can argue the pros and cons of religions all day. If you believe something then thats it. It's your belief. Respect beliefs don't try and debunk them and ridicule them because by doing that all you invariably do is strengthen belief. Spending hours, days, months years decades trying to pointscore is getting us nowhere.

Instead of pointing fingers at each other, why not just go and support your team and focus on the football.

leave it to the police and authorities to start weeding out and jailing these hateful bigots (on both sides btw) forget the points deduction. Thats not going to solve anything.

308

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:32:33

304

Oh dear, Samuel.

How sad. You really are committed to your truth aversion, arent you?

The answer to my question is one: O'Neill.

Now, Samuel, please explain to us why The RFC played only one known Catholic in the first team between 1945 & 1985.

WHY??????????

309

,

05/08/2007 12:33:30
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Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:34:05

309

Because the Authorities have failed to handle it.

Decent people MUST speak about about this FTP filth.

email the SFA.

Write to them.

Write to your MP.

To UEFA.

I have.

311

Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 12:34:25

Come on fatbasturdo. You want me to paste up the list so ye can choose 1?

312

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:34:42

311


You have multiple persona disorder.

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05/08/2007 12:35:15
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Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 12:37:08

315. numeru uno fatbasturdo

Why dont ye ask BOBO?

315

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 12:37:55

312...

You are right to write Chat...but let's leave with them to do something.

Arguing on forums just riles and intensifies the bigots even more.

Chat would you want to see points deducted?
I'd rather Celtic won the league on merit than by default.

316

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 12:38:04

chattadiddy did they teach the three r's at the separatist school,or was it just bigotry,you must have been top of the class at that,all of your personas.

317

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 12:38:26

315...

I will pray for you my son.

318

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 12:40:10

For the record I am not as Tim Malloy spin off...I am the original Tim Malloy that's been posting on here for years.

Just using my full title, thats all.

319

ExiledCelt,

unknown 05/08/2007 12:40:21

The fact that Rangers fans like to sing about being up to their knees in the blood of fenians, leaves me only with feelings of pity for them. To extole their vitriolic hatred for the Catholic peoples of Scotland and Ireland has been their ancestral inheritance, it is completely unrealistic to think that their behaviour and beliefs could be transformed over the course of a close season. Furthermore, to say that this behaviour and these beliefs are held by only an ignorant minority, is someway far from the truth. It has only been over the course of the past few years that certain journalists have forced the issue into the spotlight, and with great reluctance the powers that be have half-heartedly attempted to do as little as possible to deal with it. Only by drawing the attention of UEFA, to their behaviour, have Rangers fans forced the SFA and the Scottish establishment to admit that this racist element in our society is a problem that can no longer be ignored. Maybe in ten or twenty years time this country will celebrate and cherish the contributions of its Irish, Catholic Scots. Untill such times, we forgive and pray for you.

320

Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 12:40:27

318. numeru uno fatbasturdo

chattadiddy? That sounds a bit like one of your creations doesnt it?

321

,

05/08/2007 12:41:11
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322

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:41:22

Tim 317

I'd deduct FOUR points for yesterday.

Recurrence....more serious punishment.

In truth, I'd like them closed.

323

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:42:48

320

Forgive me if I test that, Tim:

The name of your Promary School, please?

You stated it a few days ago....

324

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:42:56

* Primary

325

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 12:43:48

Thank you Mister Malloy,my apologies if you are the real Mr Malloy,I always did respect your fairness.

326

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:44:56

You off then, Samuel?

Frightened of the truth, son?

Read this and weep:

One of first Catholics to sign for Rangers
ONE OF the first Catholics to sign for Rangers FC has died in Dundee, aged 76.

Laurie Blyth signed for the club in 1951 and played for their reserve side.

He was released after a year when the club learned of his religion, and joined Dunfermline Athletic.

Born in Dundee, he was educated at St Joseph’s School and played for junior clubs Lochee Harp and Lochee Violet before signing for the Glasgow club.

After leaving Dunfermline FC he returned to Dundee and played for the city’s junior sides.

He was a meat porter with Swift & Co until his retirement 11 years ago.

Mr Blyth is survived by wife Helen, children Laura, Eric and Helen and one grandson.

It is believed he was only the second Catholic to sign for the club—preceded only by a player called Dr Kivlachan who played for the Gers before the first world war.

The third Catholic to play for the team, South African Don Kichenbrand, had to keep his religion secret during his time with the club.

It was only when Graeme Souness signed former Celtic player Mo Johnston in 1989 that the club’s sectarian signing policy was finally consigned to history— causing fury amongst supporters.

Fans were photographed burning scarves and season tickets, while a car pulled up to Ibrox stadium carrying a wreath “mourning” the loss of the club’s 116-year tradition.

327

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 12:45:46

324

Fair enough Chat you are entitled to your opinion.

Don't you enjoy old firm games?

Also don't you think its better to root out the bigots individually than to penalise players and the club itself.

The police and stewards should be weeding out the bigots and jailing them. Thats the answer in my opinion.

328

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 12:47:06

Chat it was my secondary school not primary school...and it was St Tams in Scotstoun...St Thomas Aquinas if you are after the official name.

329

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 12:49:45

330

You're the man!

Thanks.

Forgive me for havin to check.

330

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 12:54:53

328...

I think you'll find RFC had several catholics playing for them in the very early days.

They only really became "an orange/protestant" club because of the rise of Celtic which at that time was mainly followed by irish catholics.

After Celtic's six in a row domination in the early 1900s...non celtic, non catholic, non irish football fans resented the domination and decided to follow Rangers as the "protestant" club.

331

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 12:55:46

No probs...Chat, fair question given the amount of imposters around.

Right off to watch the real team.

Come on the hoops....

332

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 12:56:30

Being a Scotstoun born and bred man,I happen to know that St.Thomas Aquinas,is not in Scotstoun it is in Jordanhill,my best man and best mate was a pupil there,but he survived the trauma.

333

David W.,

Detroit 05/08/2007 12:58:26

Celtic just raised the Championship banner. Woo! Championeeeees!

334

Barnacle Bill,

05/08/2007 12:59:39

Chatanooga-While I accept that most of what you say is valid I would want to point out that in order to move forward we cannot constantly hark back on the sins of the past. That is not to say that those sins should be forgotten but it is pointless constantly whipping those who are trying to effect, much needed, change with those sins.

The constant bickering from each side that the other side either is or was worse than them will not move anything forward. It is time to allow those who have a decent and productive vision for the future to be given a chance to rid the clubs we support of the mindless imbeciles who have been attracted to them over the years. I do believe that anyone caught spouting such vile and offensive nonsense should face criminal proceedings but I also believe that right minded supporters should also challenge such behaviour.

335

Timothy Malloy Esq,

Paradise....where else? 05/08/2007 13:00:48

334

its officially scotstounhill

336

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 13:03:11

336

Yep....so STOP IT.

337

leith keely,

sunny leith 05/08/2007 13:05:56

rangers and celtic are well named amongst non old firm fans ie "the cancer twins" and that is what they are, when cancer is present it should be cut out and removed with a very sharp knife but that will never happen because the people who walk the corridors of power at the s.f.a. are wearing aprons or brandishing crusifixes, get these clowns out of scottish football!, i doubt any other league in the world with a sane hierarchy would entertain these morons even the irish leagues north or south wouldnt allow them in and one of the main reasons why they were refused entry into the e.p.l. is the poisonous sectarian baggage they both carry.

338

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 13:12:57

No,Scotstounhill is where the train station is,just on Anniesland road.St Tams is to the north of Victoria park on Westland drive, which is Jordanhill,you sure your not a ringer ?

339

Barnacle Bill,

05/08/2007 13:13:04

338-We are trying and will continue to do so until it is erradicated from our support, I acknowledge that the problem is larger than some would wish to admit but it is diminishing, hopefully with the club taking a more pro-active approach to indentifying the perpetrators (not before time) the removal of such people will speed up. One person spouting this is one too many. I hope you are doing likewise amongst yours.

340

Alamo,

Glasgow 05/08/2007 13:13:47

As I said in post #97:-

The ordinary supporter who doesn't join in the chanting, must by default, agree with the chanting otherwise he / she wouldn't attend a match.

Why would any decent person wish to associate themselves, albeit ever so slightly, with bigots?
Even if they don't sing/chant they still attend the matches, so are therefore condoning such behaviour by being there.

341

Not Me,

..a station on the candy bar express....... 05/08/2007 13:24:12

Timothy Malloy Esq. seems to me to have the correct answer.....

-John-

Fair point regarding the love thy neighbour stuff earlier.

Does make me wonder what motivates the Pope to say such mutterings and for Priests to (first handedly) back it up.......moving on......

To the True Blues out there - Follow with Pride - nothing else.

Song moment - What Have you done today to make you feel proud.......

342

Media 1,

cape town 05/08/2007 13:28:33

Its a pity that a few people are sabotaging the Rangers fan base. Perhaps clubs should now look for systems that permit only season ticket holders to enter away grounds.

That way, clubs will be protected against saboteurs.

But good result for Rangers. Perhaps the only hope that other teams have of keeping up with Rangers is the hope that the saboteurs manage to do enough to get points deducted.

343

,

05/08/2007 13:30:09
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344

awol,

05/08/2007 13:33:03

this article was written specifically about "f*** the pope" and "up to our knees in fenian blood", two offensive sectarian remarks within two chants sung by rangers fans during a match between rangers and ICT. IF and I say IF similar remarks are heard by the authorities today, another report will follow I am sure, but today ladies and gents this is about rangers history spewing forth and no longer being seen as acceptable....FINALLY 2007 and we get some decency from the authorities.....Uefa keep an eye on this please....to those fans of this club who truly abhor the fans behaviour yesterday, I feel for you I really do but for the rest ...

345

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 13:51:55

343

NM

Dont want to do religuous debate here, NM, but The Pope was right.

If you wanna discuss, less find an appropriate place.

346

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 13:52:59

All,

I'm saddened to report that I heard a clera outbreak of filthy sectarianism at Celtic Park this afternoon, and hope that the Authorities take appropriate sanction.

It was after 7\8 mins.

Anyone else hear it?

347

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 13:56:57

332 Tim,

pleased you put "protestant" in inverted commas....as they are NOT a Protestant Club.

They are the antithesis of Protestantism.

348

,

05/08/2007 14:09:03
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349

,

05/08/2007 14:57:20
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350

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05/08/2007 14:57:38
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351

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 14:58:14

Isnt it sad to see numerous displays of sectarianism at Celtic Park today?

The Authorities MUST act against these bigots NOW.

352

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 14:58:40

352


Did you enjoy seeing the flag unfurled?

353

,

05/08/2007 14:59:16
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354

We don't care!,

05/08/2007 15:00:15

Yes my membership of Mensa and my degree are testament to my intelligence numpty, anyway GO KILLIE.......... HaHa HaHa HaHaHaHaHaHa....... repeat

355

,

05/08/2007 15:00:34
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356

,

05/08/2007 15:00:42
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357

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 15:01:27

358

I guess that leaves us one point ahead of the Enron Evils after yer threee is deducted for your usual sickness.

358

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 15:01:38

* three

359

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 15:02:06

357

You disguise it well.

360

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 15:02:56

354

Been talking about Scottish Football all along.

The biggest cancer afflicting the game: bigotry.

361

,

05/08/2007 15:03:09
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362

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 15:03:35

363

Will RFC be closed by that time?

363

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 15:03:58

365

Well said.

364

JPB (Norn Iron Supporter),

Toronto 05/08/2007 15:09:17

John Sick boy (arm chair supporter) so what was the biggoted singing ya heard on yer telly, you obviously dont go to games. Mommy not let ye??

Let us all in on it, if we are losing points I guess you lot are in on it as well??

So what was the singin bout??

365

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 15:19:18

Clydesdale Bank Premier League Table

05 August 2007

_________P GD PTS
1 Falkirk 1 4 3
2 Dundee Utd 1 1 3
3 Motherwell 1 1 3
4 Celtic 1 0 1
5Kilmarnock 1 0 1
6 Hearts 0 0 0
7 Hibernian 0 0 0
8 Aberdeen 1 -1 0
9 St Mirren 1 -1 0
10 Inverness CT 1 -3 0
11 Gretna 1 - 4 0
12 Rangers 1 3 -1*

* Rangers had four points deducted for fan sectarianism at Inverness on Sat 4th Aug 07.

366

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 15:20:51

Booing surely not at the piggery,don't you mean oinking !

367

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 15:20:56

368

Four outbreaks of the Billy Boys from the Killie supporters.

368

numeru uno fatbasturdo,

pie shop 05/08/2007 15:23:47

And an outbreak of foot in mouth for the bheggars.

369

Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 15:28:11

Celtic drop a couple of points and the headlines are forgotten.

Reminder;

Rangers on rack as sectarian chanting mars win

Murray admits police probe is 'slur' on Rangers

McCoist pledges to boot out bigots

Police search Rangers in corruption probe raids

370

Gilbie's Boy,

05/08/2007 15:28:47

Having read a lot of the tripe on this board, and writing as an ex-Rangers supporter (who packed it in in the late 70s because of the bigotry and poisonous atmosphere at the games), I have to say that I hope that Rangers ARE docked all three points from yesterday's game.

So, there we are - no ancient history lessons, no accusations against any other club, just an honest opinion. If it is not stamped on now, UEFA will throw Rangers out of European competition, which would be far worse for the reputation of Scotland.

I have 2 sons and would never dream of taking them to a game while the morons are intent on spoiling it. If folk are after a solution, why not ASBO the nutters with a condition that they report to a named police station for the duration of the games?

The football authorities will only have one chance here and this is it. Dock the points and send a strong message. Do nothing and look weak.

GB

371

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05/08/2007 15:29:56
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372

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05/08/2007 15:30:56
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373

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 15:32:51

Good post 376.

a timely reminder that decent people gave up on RFC a long long time ago as they worked long and hard to position themselves as the Bastion of Bigotry.

Some good examples of their "clientele" on display here.

374

Silence of the Yamz,

Edinburgh 05/08/2007 15:33:13

The only way to sort out the jacks is to dock points and then relegate them for a season. This will go on and on until the jacks get it into their tiny brains.

375

PAT ROLLER,

Streets of shame 05/08/2007 15:36:23

Why is this idiot 377 allowed to continually post religious nonsense by the moderators.

376

thomas,

midlothian 05/08/2007 15:36:57

historically speaking the rangers fans that sing these outdated songs are anti-scottish and should be dealt with as such. maybe the politicians will earn some respect if they are treated in the same manner as the songs suggest.
half -time could be used for public flogging of these individuals caught in the act.
would'nt that be entertainment of the highest quality?
bring back the birch to deal with religious intolerance.

377

victor ian,

05/08/2007 15:39:23

surely you have to be spectacularly stupid or downright deranged to be a travelling ger these days.

rangers will get off with a warning. and the next time. and probably the next time after that.

meantime, big heid gordon smith and his barmy plans to revolutionise scottish football will go after a couple of dives in order to "clean the game up".

oh the absurdity of it all.

378

thomas,

midlothian 05/08/2007 15:47:43

numero uno fatbastardo.
what an eloquent title you have.
scotland is a country not protestant as you suggest
but rather diverse in its make-up at this time.several erst-while minorities have expanded their numbers to the point where soon protestants and catholics will be visible minorities similar to other countries in the world
what is required by us all is to accept this fact and mix and blend with the people that live in this little country of ours. scotland is beautiful except for the minority who shame us with their pathetic behaviour
when football or soccer is played.

379

Brian,

The Laughing Academy 05/08/2007 15:51:44

This article is about Rangers fans who once again disgraced themselves and Scotland in their usual sectarian manner. Celtic FC weren't present at Inverness yesterday. Please keep that little fact in mind.

Its beyond argument that RFC is the centre of bigotry in Scottish football giving their decades long history of anti-Catholic sectarianism which, incidently, the SFA and Scottish society in general not only turned a blind eye but willingly complied and accepted. Ergo, the bulk of the problem lies within RFC and their supporters.

But surely the biggest hurdle in solving this insidious problem is in the main one of attitude. This attitudinal obstacle lies in what is perceived as the received wisdom. The received wisdom is the oft repeated mantra put forth by the Scottish media, Rangers supporters and, more ominiously, by those professing to support other clubs. This mantra has been posted many times today, and can be summed up thus:

"They (Celtic and Rangers) are as bad as each other".

Not only is this a barefaced lie, and not only is it weak and cowardly.... it also serves a useful purpose on two fronts:

i) It deflects and dillutes the guilt of the main sectarian perpretrator - Rangers FC - by adopting the fiction of the "Old Firm".

ii) It deflects, denies and absolves all the bigots of the other clubs, of which there are many. "It is a Glasgow and west coast problem" is but another fiction.

Being a well travelled Celtic supporter for many many years anti-Catholic bigotry is certainly not confined to RFC supporters.

Thankfully, the overseers of the beautiful game on the continent do not possess the blinkered views and attitudes of many in Scotland and have an impartial and balanced take on things, and as we all know have since acted accordingly. If the deniers had been correct then Celtic FC would have been in the UEFA dock with RangersFC... but we were not, and quite rightly so.

380

JPB (Norn Iron Supporter),

Toronto 05/08/2007 15:53:37

K Tim:

Thought you had a bit of sense from previous posts, just stick to the football kid as all the other stuff will soon be forgotten.

It is early days and we will see after the first month or so how the season may pan out.

Hopefully the SFA use a bit of sense (some hope) and dont ruin the season with something as stupid as points deductions.

381

spider pig,

05/08/2007 15:53:44

So chat..we understand your thoughts on RFC and sectarianism. but what are your thoughts on todays game? Are you not a wee bit embarrassed ? Was strachan not going to take you forward this season ? I would say that today was a step backwards...tell us what you think?

382

Silence of the Yamz,

Edinburgh 05/08/2007 15:59:19

Good post #383. Rangers are sectarian root and branch; the fact they don't see anything wrong with cancerous bile like the 'the Sash' speaks volumes. Their fans are despicable neanderthals. Maybe the worst in world football.

383

Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 16:05:48

379. PAT ROLLER

Why is this idiot allowed to use a dozen different log-ins?

384

DougRFC,

Brazil 05/08/2007 16:05:56

How sad to Scottish...I wouldn't invite any of my friends to read these posts day-in, day-out, never mind take them to a match! Disgraceful.

Anyone here who thinks they are above those morons from yesterday are sadly mistaken.

385

Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 16:08:33

384. JPB

You thought I had a little sense? Yet you begin posts addressing "Celtic s***".

Ha!

386

Kirrie Tim,

05/08/2007 16:13:27

Where are you Mr Roller?

Away to run Hi jack this perhaps?

387

Gilbie's Boy,

05/08/2007 16:17:38

Quick question to the supporters of RFC who insist that there is nothing wrong with the songs and/or "add ons" - will you still insist on singing them if your beloved club is docked points, thrown out of the Scottish Cup and banned from Europe?

The answers will give the rest of us a useful gimpse into the way you think.

GB

388

Pilrig.,

Livingston 05/08/2007 16:25:07

No alternative to 3pts deduction every time a sectarian/racist song is sung in the SPL , regardless by whom.

389

spider pig,

05/08/2007 16:30:25

383
Very enlightening.
Do you not think that having separate schools increases sectarianism? Do you not think introducing such a divide encourages religious negativity? I believe that religion and education should not be entwined and separating children from a young age limits them in embracing dissimilarity. You create a wall between religions before children even have a mind of their own.
I know many Celtic fans as well as Rangers fans that are bigoted so please don’t tell me that the problem has nothing to do with Celtic.

390

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:31:38

384

the stupidity is with those who do the bigotry.

391

,

05/08/2007 16:33:22
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392

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:35:13

393

to solve your difficulty with separate schools, would you like to see ALL children educated TOGETHER at Catholic Schools?

393

Not Me,

...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...... 05/08/2007 16:35:43

-John-

Hello Hello in itself is not sectarian.......

You hear it all the time at games in Engerland......

its only the F word that isn't allowed.

It is an interesting argument that Irish Republicanism is not in itself sectarian whilst the F word is - I R is not because some protestants were involved but F is (even though some protestants were involved).

-John- you seem quite obviously to be religious and the poep was correct......ha ha ha .......the Catholic Church is like BP - a very succesful company - indeed perhaps it is more like Enron - built on nothing but lies......

Jesus was a good man - but that was it - a good man.....the rest is nonsense......

....anyway - where were the all conquering heroes today - Spatak Moscow in the windscreen - how scared are you all.......

Song moment - Back in the USSR..............

394

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:36:03

395

OMG....my anti bigotry posts have really upset you!

395

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:37:24

397

Sorry NM....said before ....dont wanna do religion here.

It upsets the natives.

I'll leave the religious stuff with you.

396

the boke,

05/08/2007 16:39:38

I take it the rabid anti sectarian mob of a certain team, like me earlier about Rangers, will condem equally Pee-tics singing "Whos the m***n in the black" during todays humilation by Killie? No I didn't think so. No that chant is only a charming old Irish folk song of a ditty so it is, sung by titties on the wrong side of the city.

397

Not Me,

...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...... 05/08/2007 16:41:48

Brian

ha ha ha

You only want the alcoholic to change because you have not owned up to the fact yourself.......

....it is the first step in any change process - and you have missed it......

Why did you give up drinking - were you upset at the drunk you had become - did you have a problem being drunk? No. I had no problem being drunk it was everyone else who thought i had a problem being drunk.......

....you obviously think you have no problem......

....have another drink on me.

Song moment - Blame it on Milk and Alcohol....

398

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:41:51

400

Who's the Mason in the black?

Upsetting you?

Diddums!!!

399

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:43:25

401

For many here, only when RFC get closed they'll realise they have a big big problem.

400

Not Me,

...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...... 05/08/2007 16:46:17

All evidence to the contrary -John-

The Pope was right?

When was that then - not sure he (in his many guises) has ever been right......

Still - I do agree that bigotry should be stopped - how do you feel think the majority of the world feels when they are quite openly told that they have got it wrong - could that not be construed as bigotry - after all what does WATP mean?

address any responses to the Vatican.

you seem to have written everywhere else......

Song moment - Paper back writer..... got a wee Beatles thing goin.

401

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:47:30

404

You still doin religion, NM... yawn.

402

Not Me,

...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...... 05/08/2007 16:48:07

Why does the F word upset you then -John-?

403

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:48:37

404

Beatles thank, NM?

How about All You Need is Love.....rather than F*** THE POPE?

404

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:48:55

406

Which F word?

405

Silence of the Yamz,

Try again jack... 05/08/2007 16:49:23

Since when are Freemason's a recognised church or religion? Have I missed something?

406

Not Me,

...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...... 05/08/2007 16:50:01

Botred with religion -John- shurley without it there would be no bigotry (of a religious nature) and then you would be really bored......

yawn..................

407

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05/08/2007 16:51:29
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408

Gilbie's Boy,

05/08/2007 16:52:21

Hmmm... no responses to #391 yet - interesting.

GB

409

Not Me,

...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...... 05/08/2007 16:52:57

-John- you are right - all you need is love.....

pretty much what Jesus taught.....

Lennon & McCartney the 13th and 14th......

where is your love -John-.......

has it left the building?

or is it reserved for those who think like you?

Song moment - Like a Bird on the Wire.....

410

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:53:21

410

Still PLENTY of bigotry to talk about, NM.

Religion....there's a time and a place....and this aint it.

I'll leave it with you.

411

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:54:05

413

Yep.....but I despise bigots\bigotry....is that OK?

412

Brian,

The Laughing Academy 05/08/2007 16:54:11

#393 - "Do you think that having separate schools increases sectarianism?"

No. RC schools originally came about because of anti-Catholic bigotry... Catholics weren't welcome into the newly joined publicly funded schools many years ago. Hence we went our own way.

The question you should be asking yourself and many others is why is it only Scotland that possesses such bitterness toward these highly successful schools? It is a problem in no other country.

Catholics make up 16% of Scotland's population. 20% of children go to RC schools. Yet only 57% of young Catholics actually attend RC schools. Therefore RC schools appeal to many outwith the Catholic population. Why would anybody want to dismantle such a successful part of public education?

Surely the biggest divide in society is between the rich and poor. Where is the outcry against private education?

413

Not Me,

...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...... 05/08/2007 16:55:01

You know the F word.

You hate the F word.

Somehow it consumes you.

Song moment - WHY.....

414

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:55:02

412

they find this stuff complimicated.

415

Chatanooga,

05/08/2007 16:55:24

417

Which F word?