Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Time for Nationalists to fight dirty with negative campaign, says former SNP leader

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 18 October 2009
SCOTLAND'S Nationalists were urged by a former leader of their party to fight dirty by campaigning hard on the theme of "Bankrupt Britain".
The call at the SNP conference came from Gordon Wilson, leader of the SNP from 1979 to 1990, in a keynote Donaldson lecture on the history of the party.

Dr Wilson said the SNP had to offer a vision of the future that neither unionism nor devolut
ion could satisfy.

But he went on: "Let us never forget that negative campaigning has its place."

He focused on Labour's tactic in last year's Glenrothes by-election, when it highlighted care charges increased by SNP-led Fife Council – or the "grievance politics" deployed in the current Glasgow North East by-election.

"Labour are past masters at this," Wilson said. "Again and again in its early days, the SNP was far too positive and visionary for its own good.

"We had to learn from Labour to be more streetwise."

Labour was portraying public spending cuts as "SNP cuts" and concealing its own responsibility for them, he added.

"Let's go further than blaming Labour," he said. "A perfect storm lies ahead for the next ten to 20 years as the British state is submerged in public debt. What about blaming the union itself?

"A Britain is Bankrupt campaign, along the lines of It's Scotland's Oil, or Say No To The Poll Tax."

To loud applause he said: "Destroy faith in Britain, and the only sensible alternative is independence."

Dr Wilson told activists to learn lessons from the party's experiences of the 1970s.

"As we go into the independence referendum, do recall what happened to Scotland's oil wealth, and the procrastination and double-dealing by London's establishment over it and devolution," he said.

"London has the template in the drawer ready to use. Be prepared – whatever the decisions taken by the Scottish Parliament, do not ignore Downing Street.

"Number 10 is clever and unscrupulous – there is more than Mandelson at work. The British establishment will be mobilised – count on it."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 17 October 2009 10:56 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

polls,

Scotland 18/10/2009 00:21:00
An interesting suggestion, however I believe that parties will benefit from a positive message.

Negativity is damaging Labour at the moment, their continual politicising of the Megrahi issue continues to be questionable.
2

Fifi la Bonbon,

18/10/2009 00:46:24
It would be interesting to learn what a positive campaign from the nationalists would look like.

Am I the only one to see an irony in something called the "Donaldson lecture?" I presume this is named after the Blessed Arthur Donaldson, for some time Leader of the nationalists in the sixties, but less talked about since it transpired that he was detained on MI5 information that he allegedly conspired with the Nazis with a view to being the Scots equivalent to Quisling should they have succeeded in invading Great Britain in WW2?



"Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again...."
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2009 01:32:51

None the point of playing the game of schoolboy tactics, and using "Bankrupt Britain", as the theme!
We are not all ignorant, we know that "Bankrupt Britain", started in America, we became the pawns of the fall, why not do the honour of telling us tour remedies of rectification, or do you not have the answer to the question of us the voters?



4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/10/2009 01:33:48

None the point of playing the game of schoolboy tactics, and using "Bankrupt Britain", as the theme!
We are not all ignorant, we know that "Bankrupt Britain", started in America, we became the pawns of the fall, why not do the honour of telling us your remedies of rectification, or do you not have the answer to the question of us the voters?


5

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/10/2009 01:36:18
You don't need a negative campaign to counter the apologists for the sick and dying Union.

You only need a negative campaign when you have nothing positive to say. Like our Unionist chums.

Look at #2 as a classic example.

Because there is not a single positive thing about the Union that Fifi is able to articulate, she resorts to racking the muck bins of history no matter how irrelevant or off topic.

Rather Pathetic
6

Cynicus Unbound,

18/10/2009 01:37:28
"Time for Nationalists to fight dirty with negative campaign.."-HEADLINE

There are many CyberNats here who "fight dirty with negative campaigns."

Ask Rufus.
7

Alan B,

18/10/2009 01:47:57
Did he actually say 'fight dirty'. For all the quotes that term is never in quotes in the article.

Or is he just advocating that the snp should also campaign negatively. ie Point out the sheer mess the uk is in.

Labour have tried to portray iceland and ireland as bankrupt nations without the irony that the UK is also in a dreadful fiscal situation. So bad the term bankrupt britain is being used.

As such it is very relevent and should be pointed out how big a mess the uk is in.

Although personally think the reason for independence is more to do with scotland underperformance within the union. And the fact that labour and the tories will do hee haw about it as they chase votes in the south.
8

Alan B,

18/10/2009 01:50:11
While i think the snp should highlight the negatives of the uk they should not do a labour and get involved in sheer lying to convince voters to vote their way. The snp must keep up a certain level of ethics and not lower themselves to labours standards.
9

Fifi la Bonbon,

18/10/2009 01:50:20
#5 says "Because there is not a single positive thing about the Union that Fifi is able to articulate...." and while the rest of what she says is abusive nonsense, there is some truth in that point.

Nationalism is an aggressive force, an emotional spasm. People feel passionate about nationalism, they even kill people over it, as they do over religion. It is a faith. Look at the heat and anger in so many nationalists' diatribes as they slag off everyone else who is not a true believer.

By contrast, arguing that nationalism is wrong and misguided is pretty boring. Most of us who feel that way are surprised to have it labelled as an "ism" because it isn't an ideology. Those of us who are politically active anyway are uncomfortable about being defined as "unionists".

And we are shocked at being hated and reviled by people who seem to be fellow Scots and who claim to be patriots.

It seems that the least we can do in defence is a little light mockery. Which is an excellent excuse to encourage people to enjoy yet again the rantings and ravings of everyone's favourite nationalist, McGlashan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odsnKKz2-dU
10

Fletty,

18/10/2009 01:55:55

The SNP don't really have to do or say anything.

Labour are destroying themselves.
11

redcliffe62,

18/10/2009 01:58:46
negative campaigning works.
in my view had 2007 campaign continued for another week then the snp would have fallen behind labour as the media pushed labour hard.
and labour cannot really show the benefits at this time for what they have achieved, so more negativity is on the ay. rather than simply counterpuching, hitting below the belt to start would be the correct approach so labour has to try to justify why the actions of the last 12 years should be allowed to continue.
12

famous 15,

Edinburgh 18/10/2009 02:06:32
Personally I think the SNP has got what it takes to win the hearts and minds of the Scottish people. They are at one with people of Scotland and no amount of Johnson Press dirty sticky pseudo journalism will alter that. (Someone should tell the Scotsman and its fellow travellers that bold lies are not the best.) Lie,if the must, but test it on their own weans first.
13

hoblar,

18/10/2009 02:12:36
Of course the 'fight dirty' headline failed to be the reality within the article.

The SNP do need to make harder points as they have politicians a plenty capable of doing so, not necessarily negative rather than not allow Labour to make nonsense statements and get away with it.
14

,

18/10/2009 02:17:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

Fifi la Bonbon,

18/10/2009 02:20:53
#14 - would you deny that many nationalists hate their fellow Scots who don't fall into line? If you would, you can't be reading these comments columns very much!
16

Fifi la Bonbon,

18/10/2009 02:22:05
#12 - I think you're going to feel awfully let down as we fail to have our hearts and minds won by Mister Salmond.
17

Alan B,

18/10/2009 02:25:28
#Fifi la Bonbon,

"Nationalism is an aggressive force, an emotional spasm"

There is an obvious great stupidity in your argument.

Firstly nationalism in this case as you know refers to scotland becoming an independent nation. As such you are claiming every independent nation and the desire for a country to keep its sovereignty is therefore "an aggressive force...".

That argument backs up the posters point about you and other unionists of not being able to put forward any sort of case for the union.

It also demonstrates Wilson point that labour supporters arguments are based on a dirty type of campaign and argument. ie yours that independence for scotland is somehow "an emotional spasm" and not simply that they view that as a far better way to run the country.

Lastly the thing that is very obvious from these forums is that the unionist argument is based itself on a british nationalism. We can see that aptly demonstrated by the story regarding the orange order.

Finally if you were to take your argument to its logical conclusion you should be opposing the british state and supporting a federal europe with scotland a member of that union. As that would move away from the concept of the nation state which you apparent do not support. (unless of course it is this bizzare and failing union).

That is the biggest problem with the unionist argument on these forums. There is no logic.
18

Alan B,

18/10/2009 02:29:51

"would you deny that many nationalists hate their fellow Scots who don't fall into line? If you would, you can't be reading these comments columns very much!"

You could easily reverse that. By reading these forum you can see unionist hate fellow scots for wanting the best for their country. You included as we can see from your post in #9.

We can see it from all the nazi jibes etc. ie if you do not support a union that fails scotland you are a nazi support. If you want the best for your nation, your a nazi. How grown up. That is the level of unionist argument that you get on these forums from the typical labour supporter.



19

Fifi la Bonbon,

18/10/2009 02:34:28
#17 - that's twisting words. I said that nationalism is an aggressive force, an emotional spasm.

That is why so many nationalists hate their fellow Scots, people like me.



20

Fifi la Bonbon,

18/10/2009 02:44:00
#18 - people who aren't nationalists have never, as far as I can recall, evinced hatred for nationalists. What would be the point?

The worst we do is poke gentle fun, like posting up links about McGlashan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlSqCpHJObs

Now read what I wrote at #18 again. No, read it. With your eyes. Say the words out loud if it aids comprehension.

I didn't say that if you are a nationalist you were a Nazi. I did say that Arthur Donaldson was somewhat dodgy.

And that's a matter of historical record, and so ironic when nationalists describe non-conforming fellow Scots as "Quislings" and traitors as they often do.


"Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain..."
21

Kenny A,

18/10/2009 02:44:20
My pennys worth

I think this speach by the SNP could be taken in two ways and with the bias of the Scotsman have an idea of what they wish us to believe.

Firstly negative politics is a bit of blame the other person not us.

IOf the SNP generaly believe resorting to the tactics of other parties is going to work they are wrong.

With the Orangemen being encouraged to vote labour the last thing the SNP require is talk of fighting dirty.

There is enough dirt and filth in politics without what I have regarded as a fairly honest if at times unrealistic party decending to the levels of others.

By Fifi's posts which are usualy rabid but are reasonable tonight sadly it seems that this tactic may have some merit however.

I just wish a decent Independant with no interest in politics but a genuine desire to help people in the UK and also gain Scotland independence would spring up from somewhere.
22

Fifi la Bonbon,

18/10/2009 02:56:33
I'm surprised that anyone could possibly think any of my comments were rabid - I thought the injections had worked - but if the nationalists carry on expressing such hatred for fellow Scots who don't agree with them on the question of their campaign to break up our country, then nobody could describe their approach as anything but negative.

Do us all a favour and stop the hatred! Or I'll post another McGlashan film! I'm serious!
23

Kenny A,

18/10/2009 03:28:41
Fifi

Sorry about the injections, that was a good reply by you.

Going to show my ignorance here what is a McGlashlan film. Sounds kind of scary.
24

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 18/10/2009 04:21:53
We'll leave fighting dirty to Maddox and his Labour friends. like the author of this headline that attributes Gordon Wilson as saying "Fight Dirty", which he doesn't say.

If having a negative campaign is "Fighting Dirty", then by Labour's own admission, they have been fighting dirty for decades.
25

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 18/10/2009 04:48:43
Wilson is right the british are past masters of Lies Deceit and miss information.
However THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE ARE DONE WITH THEM AND ARE LEAVING THE disunited kingdom in OCTOBER 2010. Have a nice day..............................................
26

Parallax,

Hong Kong, China 18/10/2009 04:49:25
What is obvious is that the Engs have ran as far as possible with a note based on Consumerism and expansionism and greed.

What is needed is a Dialectic approach with a friendly neighbour free of the Eng weighted laws. A tax on watching TV has the world laughing ...

If Trump has said anything - with his actions - it is that he wants out of USA and into Scotland.
And he will make the move -
For his children.
And Scotland will have a Clan of Vikings born of a Scottish mother, educated in the USA, with proven skills at creating gold from ashes, left by others - after they crashed and burned.

The Dialectic approach of Scotland competing with the Engs will bring the Engs out of their pubs and into education & creativity instead of beggars picking pockets.

Scotland has no place to go but up - whereas the Engs have no place to go but down - if there is no change.

The last time I was in Scotland - in 2002 - Bristol was a sewer of alcohol & urine on the street.

If the Engs continue - Scotland will be the same - as if the change was not already obvious.
In USA 33% of the hospital beds are filled with alcohol related problems making $ for the hospital owners. Tobacco is another ...

I don't come back to write just to play.
Many of us ancestral Scotts, not only Trump, want to return - with our life's savings - but be damned to return to the same conditions we left.
Even after 300 years - Scotland is home.

I've been writing Engs here as in China the tonal word 'ng' means reversal. It is the sound often heard coming from the toilet area in the morning...
27

Rob Veers,

18/10/2009 05:31:08
I look at the headline, and then at what many people post on here already. I have to wonder how a party could run a none “negative” campaign and end up with follower who are a mirror image. The truth is the campaigning is filled with illusion. You don’t have to say something in a negative fashion for it to negatively affect people.
28

Observer,,

Glasgow 18/10/2009 05:38:24
Fantastic idea. I am so fed up with the SNP being nice. It makes them a middle class party which is why I haven't joined them. ''Negative campaigning'' is no such thing - it is pointing out the truth. The SNP stuck themselves into a position where they thought they could persuade people into independence by showing good governance - and then a global recession sneaked in which they didn't anticipate and have not been very good at dealing with.

I just want independence and will vote for whatever party gives me that option.
29

Rob Veers,

18/10/2009 05:40:42
#26. Parallax
It is because diaspora Scots are habitually shy in investing in Scotland that has left Scotland with so little opportunities and the conditions so often reported.
30

Observer,,

Glasgow 18/10/2009 05:45:43
Labour are just incredibly good at street fighting politics. They always have been. The SNP need to match them because the areas of Scotland which have the most votes is not in the North East or Perth or any of these other places it is here in Glasgow and the West central belt. You don't win here by being nice.
31

Kenny A,

18/10/2009 05:56:49
30 Good points, but I dont wish to vote for any party who goes down the line of dirty fighting, especialy the greens who throw enviromentaly PC camel dung at people.

Think the SNP should stick to the moral high ground and not attempt to fight gutter dwellers in their own environment.

That probably came across a lot harsher than intended, but fighting fire with fire as they say does not always work and can be very destructive.
32

Rob Veers,

18/10/2009 06:20:44
#31. Kenny A
Moral high ground sounds good to me. I don't see the connection with the snp though. Moral high ground didn't get them where they are today, the MacCrone report and oil did. Scotland's version of a gold rush, high ideals sprinkled with 99.9% nonsense. Most people ended up with very little benefit from the product there too.
33

Rob Veers,

18/10/2009 06:44:40
#30. Observer
Make your mind up Observer, you've not joined them and then you are them and then they're being too high moralled and then they should stick with their high morals.A believer who doesn't believe enough, an apt name you've got there, the observer. The doer would be an all too different ball game.
34

Kenny A,

18/10/2009 07:20:23
32 Rob

To be honest most of the time neither do I. However they seem the most honest of a fairly bad bunch.

Their entire existance was based on the premis of an independant Scotland and I think this is now fading into the background in order to gain votes and bluntly power.

Perhaps this is in order to persue their avowed (man that came out of nowhere) policies or sadly just for the individual gain.

The high moral ground part, possibly a slightly raised hill, since the days of Donald Stewart there have been very few moral politicians, all seem to have their own agenda which they persue rather than the views of their constituants which regardless they should take into account and act accordingly on their behalf.

I think possibly you were a bit harsh on observer. For myself I like to look at matters before making a decision, sadly I am not very patient and often just react. The fact is however is as you pointed out those who do things get things done.
35

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

18/10/2009 07:44:11
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

The real point of this story is "Gordon Wilson succumbs to galloping senility".

If Britain is "bankrupt", then so, artihmetically, is Scotland.

Rerun the oil campaign of the 70s? Go right ahead. It failed last time, and meanwhile in the last 30 years the easy, cheap-to-produce oil has been used up. Production peaked in 1999 and has been heading downwards at 4-5% a year ever since.

Nothing like reliving the past for the Nats, is there?
36

Rob Veers,

18/10/2009 08:10:35
#34. Kenny A
Perhaps you are right about me being a little harsh on Observer over what seemed to be indecision, sorry Observer. The truth is I’ve not been on here long and I feel a great degree of pressure from those who are making less kind comments. I made a comment yesterday about the use of the word traitor and how you would have to consider most Scots in the past few generations and those who had changed sides to the snp too. Observer for some reason called me a troll which I found to be a little cruel.
The issue of independence is born in the hearts of men, and women, and the idea never leaves you. The truth is I want an honest political party to bring this about. You’re right they do look to be the most honest of a fairly bad bunch, unfortunately not very good at looking after a budget. I guess I will need to cross my finger a little bit harder.
37

Rob Veers,

18/10/2009 08:16:27
Can anyone tell me why an obvious nationalist supporter is acting the part of an overt unionist and trying to cause so much friction. Their initials are GCLM.
38

Rob Veers,

18/10/2009 08:18:20
#36. Rob Veers
*my fingers a little bit harder.
39

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 18/10/2009 08:28:26
Negative campaigning does work, but only with strong media support - hardly likely to come the SNP's way. The SNP have made a great start to open, positive government - steady as she goes and it will pay off with the electorate eventually.

You cannot fool all the people zall the time.
40

Ben Thehoose,

18/10/2009 09:15:29
Beginners start (and end) here:

1. The ONLY nation in these isles is the British Nation.
2. This has been so for over 30,000 years.
3. Over time several aliens have tried to separate us.
4. The indigenous Brythonic-Gaelic speaking Picti/Briti impressed and resisted Caesar.
5. Later aliens invaders/colonists included Saxons, Angles, Normans & the Scotti.
6. Treaty of Union is best understood as an attempt to resume the old unity.
7. Sadly the SNP is now playing the traitors’ game of divide-and-rule.
8. Separation is akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
9. Divorce is rarely the first solution to a failing relationship.
10. A Federal UK, forming the USGB, is our best hope.
41

GMCD,

18/10/2009 09:28:49
So everything is the Union's fault so the Union must be very important to Scotland..???
And who will be to balme when the Unionis gone? The SNP are "blameless" in evryting they cack-up...

Some honesty from all parties would be interesting!!!
42

,

18/10/2009 09:44:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

Brodric,

18/10/2009 10:01:11
There is much truth in what Wilson says.

Politics is a funny old thing. Like any other area of thought when you are arguing for a point of view, you often have to negate the point of view of others. To a large extent I find the meanderings of the UK parties in parliament, at worst, rather boring and childish. But this is how it is at the moment.

Now, I like Alex Salmond. He is astute and he is clever - in the meaning of the word clever. But, we have to reach a point where we are more deliberate about the what we want for the future and this includes righting some of the wrongs of the recent past. I think Salmond can be both positive - and manage to put across the injustices - and how we can change these for the future in a positive way. He has a lot to deal with, with hype and counter-hype about Scotland's inability to manage financially - but it can't be worst than we have at present.

There is a long list to state - and to change - for Scotland. Oil, being the principle one and how Scotland has been starved of any real investment from that money. Bridges for one; rail links; MOTORWAYS - for God's sake we are in the 21st century and the whole of Eastern Europe has them! Not to mention a divorce settlement when we split from the Union.

Give the man a bit of credit and trust. And please will some of the contributors above stop being so negative. Remember William Wallace and how that sa,e attitude 'helped' him.
44

Scottish Stoic,

18/10/2009 10:28:23
#40

I don't think your description of Britishness would fit well with second and third generation immigrations and Britons of Irish descent (by Irish, the identification of the current sovereign state of Ireland) as it totally ignores them. I think we need to realise what it means to be British has changed and that you can't simply turn the clock back to an age where Britain was centric to the lives of every one of it's inhabitants to the point that one time, the safest Tory seat in Scotland was in Glasgow.
45

viking nz,

newzealand 18/10/2009 10:33:55
nae punchin below the sash
46

puskas,

East kilbride 18/10/2009 10:36:31
The Labour Party getting the backing of bigots.

50,000 orangemen mobilising to save the union?

Certainly cannot be he Tories... Or will it be a split vote?

A warning to all decent citizens of Scotland.

This bankrupt mob similar to Westminister have no vision for Scotland other than keeping our country in the dark ages..

When the GE comes remember the unionist parties in their own constituancies will not be able to bus any supporters from outlying areas' EG England.

This battle can/will be won by SNP activists on the streets.
My Scotland will be for all law abiding citizens no matter colour, crede,(religion)to progress our nation across all potential divides.
47

Scottish Stoic,

18/10/2009 10:42:07
In terms of whether to use negative campaigning. Remember, that Scots will only vote for independence if they have the confidence that as a nation we can go it alone. If we don't have that confidence then independence is an uncertainty that frightens us. It has be pointed out that we are getting a bad deal out of the union. It could be pointed out that a bad deal is better than no deal which is what independence is unless we are convinced otherwise.

48

Allan(handofgod137),

18/10/2009 10:51:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOZ807MN6G0&feature=related

Is this fat n'ecks latest speech?
49

Ben Thehoose,

18/10/2009 10:56:10
#46 Scottish Stoic.

You are right! Due to immigration what is meant by being British is changing-for the worse!

Immigrants came here attracted by the BritishWway. Sadly, because part of the British Way is tolerance, the very way that attracted the migrants is now being undermined by them. Just consider the effects of demands for Islamification of our ways for proof.

The BNP has a good following because it alone is emphasising these dangers. It is sad that it takes an extremist to throw the spotlight upon what polite society refuses to recognise.
50

mark mccann,

18/10/2009 11:16:02
The sash wearing sect coming out against the SNP is a publicity dream. Then again, considering the previous posters; Ben the hoose, Fifi, and the rest who wail and gnash their teeth, predicting doom and gloom for the temerity of wanting our own country back. Having the Orange Order against you is hardly a surprise.

Hate-mongers! Unite against the SNP, for they tell the truth! If the truth is known, we are doomed!

W#nk#ers!
51

Lys Alf,

Scotland 18/10/2009 11:19:04
Fredom for Scotland!
52

Gary Inserik,

Nova Scotia 18/10/2009 11:19:53
"British Way is tolerance"

And the Scottish way is compassion - something roundly condemed by Scottish Labour activists even though their masters in Westminster more or less agree on a certain event that happened not so long ago.
53

BlackDouglas2,

The UK is bankrupt 18/10/2009 11:40:54
Didn't take long for my message to get through!

This is not negative, it is the truth!

My idea, sorry Gordon Wilson's idea, makes sense for lots of reasons.

Firstly, by being only positive the SNP has allowed the unionists a free run against independence for a generation. The unionists were engaged in frighterning people through anti-independence propaganda and false economic statistics and it has worked to some degree.

The unionists have for example claimed that Scotland has a deficit. This is not true but if there was a deficit it wouldn't be paid by England. England would have a deficit too. This has gone unchallenged.

We should be talking about the mountain of debt the UK has stacked up about how the pound is drowning the economy through London printing money and how the City has helped bankrupt the UK through fraud which was aided and abetted by Downing Street.

London merchant bankers or a healthy Scottish NHS? Where should the money have gone? Illegal wars or Scottish schools? Where should the money be going? Trident or jobs? What should our economy prioritise?

Once people realise the UK is bankrupt that puts the case for independence on an equal footing. Up till now the unionists have developed a whole raft of anti-independence propaganda. Well, the SNP only has to tell the truth to counter it: Britain is bankrupt and we need to get out.

What most economists and politicians don't get is this. There isn't going to be a recovery. Things are going to get worse and then stay that way. Why should Scotland stay on board the Titanic?

Neutralise the unionists propaganda by telling the truth about the failed British economy and then people will listen to the truth about independence. We have a way out, the unionists only have failure to offer!

I urge all nationalists to terrorise these propaganda shills by telling the truth about the failed British state. This is not negative, it is the truth.

This is a first class opportunity to star
54

BlackDouglas2,

The UK is bankrupt 18/10/2009 11:41:18
This is a first class opportunity to start to turn the corner. It's near the election, it's near a referendum and it's time to fight them at their own game. The people know we are for a bright future - what they don't know is the truth about Britain - it's dead!
55

mad world,

18/10/2009 12:08:25
'Destroy faith in Britain'? What a completely idiotic approach..
While many people in the UK are trying to deal with the recession, this fool thinks it's a good idea to go around shouting about how bad it is for political benefit! And what of those abroad looking in thinking of investing in the UK, Wont they be put off by this appraoch? Clearly an ill thought out rediculous thing to do!
To be honest, i think this would cost SNP votes, not gain them...

56

Scottish Stoic,

18/10/2009 12:20:36
#51

The sense of belonging to this Isle called Britain gives me a kinship to the folk down south. It saddens me what is happening down there and I don't condemn the English folk who are white and are minorities in the area where they live for voting for the BNP but I don't think the politics of the BNP in it's current form have any place in the national arena.

Being British isn't a slavish devotion to an entity could the British state or allegiance to a monarch, it is about a sense of belonging and kinship to people for the reason of having the same outlook and values. As you said immigrants were attracted to the UK in the past with this 'British way'.

Unfortunately this British way has changed by immigration, globalisation, the pursuit of individualism as typified by Thatchers 'There is no society' and integration into the EU amongst other things.

There is no longer an anglo-centric mono-culture. It has been replaced by a multiculturalism where every identity and culture is equal. I used to be a unionist but I've turn Scottish nationalist because I just can't stomach that being brought up in central Scotland believing that for instance looking down at folk who don't speak the Queens English to the letter and to to view folk from the Highlands as chuchters and sheep-shaggers yet not to have any problem with immigrants who bring their language and customs of their homelands with them. It reeks of cultural imperialism and it has brought into question what I believe in.

Before anybody jumps down my throat with accusations of racism, whether Scotland becomes independent, in a looser union or in the same, we will need immigrants with skills. Rather than looking abroad, why not look down south with non-white English who are sickened with the racism that they encounter down there. The selling point of moving to Scotland and accept most likely a lower standard of living is a true sense of acceptance and belonging, a sort of Scottish way. IMHO, this can onl
57

Scottish Stoic,

18/10/2009 12:21:57
....MHO, this can only be done with a strong Scottish culture that everybody shares. We should be proud and celebrate our culture, not be ashamed of it.

As I mentioned last night, I came across a Canadian punk band called the Real McKenzies who put on a Scottish accent and do covers of Scot's Folk songs. They are not born in Scotland but have an affinity for Scots culture. If that affinity with Scotland is strong even with the separation of an ocean, why can't that affinity of being Scottish not being strong by being in this country though you may not have been born in Scotland?

Just a thought and apologies as it has went off on a bit of tangent.
58

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 18/10/2009 12:32:33
"And what of those abroad looking in thinking of investing in the UK, Wont they be put off by this appraoch? Clearly an ill thought out rediculous thing to do!
To be honest, i think this would cost SNP votes, not gain them..."

Hey moron, no-one is investing in Britain. Just ask Jim Rogers (one of the world's most famous investors) who is advising people to leave the UK and telling us that the pound is dead. Oh, what about the hedge funds and banks shifting to Switzerland?

The reason no-one is investing in the UK moron, is because it is bankrupt. People know that London is printing money because it can't afford to pay its debts. So, why have a pound in investment when by next year that pound will only be worth 50p.

The business of the SNP is to talk about Scotland's future. It has the right and indeed the responsiblity to tell Scots that Britain is going down the tubes. Scots should protect themselves by growing food, buying gold and voting for independence.

Independence is now about financial survival for families!
59

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 18/10/2009 12:56:54
A positive campaign is always better because it shows up and contrasts the low expectations and tactics of your opponents. The SNP are pursuing the right strategy right now and forever, simple honesty. If you believe in what you are saying you will always defeat those who don't.

A lot of the stuff supposedly against the SNP is actually anti-Scottish because it makes the assumption that Scotland is incapable of the normal powers of independence. Labour now have the embarassing sight of the Orange Lodge cozying up to them while in terms of the rights of the Scots they have effectively the same policy as Tories, UKIP and the BNP.

This coalition of horrors is going to eventually convince the people that there is something deeply rotten at the heart of Britain and there is. The British state has a xenophobic racist attitude towards foreigners which has its roots in bigotry and the dreams of Empire.

The SNP are the exact opposite to this lot and they therefore only have to remain true to their own principles to offer a direct and obvious contrast.
60

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 18/10/2009 13:37:22
61 JoeMiddleton,Edinburgh 18/10/2009 12:56:54

I think you're being lured into the idea of this being 'negative'.

The bottom line is that it's the truth: Britain is bankrupt. People have to know the truth. You can't not tell the truth because you're ever so nice and telling the truth is not the done thing when it suits you politically. That's just stupid and willfully inept.

This is a massive story which is going to impact on the lives of everyone - hugely.

The problem is that the fog of propaganda is so thick that we are like the proverbial frog getting slowly boiled to death. Britain is bankrupt and people are in clear danger. They must be told the truth and the truth.

Scotland can get out and go for a brighter future. The truth and a positive message.

Ignoring these tactics is not only stupid but dangerous for our population who need to take action to protect their families!
61

,

18/10/2009 13:58:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

hoblar,

18/10/2009 14:02:24
The snide British nationalism of the multi posting fifi clown is rather ugly and off putting, designed as it is to be insulting to a sizeable proportion of Scottish voters.

Also, it is rather hilarious that these few unionist supporters fail to see how their particularly ugly brand of British nationalism as representing the most abhorrent type of nationalism.

Wishing to be an Independent country with an autonomous government isn't a nasty or snide ambition, it is the most natural way most nations prefer to be governed by and Scotland is going in that direction, particularly over the last few years as the union gets found out as being far from being a collection of countries with common purpose.

63

hoblar,

18/10/2009 14:07:55
"Destroy faith in Britain'? What a completely idiotic approach."

Er, the uk government have been at the forefront of this 'idiotic approach' my man.

They have wrecked the economy have they not?

Left us poor punters in unprecedented debt.

The England only editions of newspapers, with their stupid editorials that they think Scots don't get to see, while gung ho supporting Britain, are so against our country, and so keen to misinform their public target audience, it makes a mockery of any idea of Britain being unitied.

The Scottish media in general slags of the Scoittish Government rather than all Scots (as the Telegraph would do) and it is all about their fear of the SNP.

Just like the few trolls here, nothing to say but pooping their pampers over the SNP.
64

,

18/10/2009 14:08:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
65

,

18/10/2009 14:09:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
66

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 18/10/2009 14:17:00
Time for headline writers to reflect the article.

Time for articles to reflect what was actually said.
67

Jock Tamson,

S 18/10/2009 14:21:04
64, hoblar.

Yon Fifi is a refractor. Refraction is a bit like redaction but the method is to shed bent light.
68

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 18/10/2009 15:13:20
International investors urging people to leave the UK. The pound is drowning -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68w506LH3BE
69

,

18/10/2009 15:24:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
70

mad world,

18/10/2009 16:01:41
#65
while the uk governments handling in my opinion hasnt been good by any means, they aren't exactly the ones that have knackered the economy at this point!
this was caused by the US property market! The UK is not alone in suffering! And for all those that are suffering we need a positive enviroment! Anyone who has an understanding of economics knows that!
71

Daniel Salaman,

London - Nicosia 18/10/2009 16:21:31
Braking out of the Union its not a good idea who said that Scotland will be better of. Quite honestly reading Scottish comments are full of complains one after the other England which so hated by some scottish who are known to be << fanatics >> they are never satisfied no matter as to how much your union partners gave to Scotland. Now who has ever stopped Scotland to develop a healthy Economy a healthy industry, scotland's Chances are just the same with all its other partners. I love Scotland just as much as i love its people and i am sincere with my feelings and i am wishing Scotland nothing but the very best . But i am terribly worried with this party NSP and in particular with its leader that doesn't inspire me with confidence at all ,as he sounds to me to be very immature and without any particular knowlage in politics . I am astonished that people in Scotland take this foolish peanut brains man seriously. Not for all the money in the world i could imagine this man ruling our beloved Nation. What people must come to understand is the fact of reality, as this man is just a romantic ideologist without any political serious and mature substance. Adolf Salmond is not a politician and if he is believed to be he will only drive Scotland to the point of no return.If he ever comes in power and claims independence in a periot of 10 years 3/4 of scotland's population will immigrate due to poverty and possible (Dictatorship)or luck of freedom and Democracy.
72

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 18/10/2009 16:58:27
72 mad world,18/10/2009 16:01:41
"#65
while the uk governments handling in my opinion hasnt been good by any means, they aren't exactly the ones that have knackered the economy at this point!
this was caused by the US property market! The UK is not alone in suffering! And for all those that are suffering we need a positive enviroment! Anyone who has an understanding of economics knows that!"

--------------------------------------------

You're talking total mince. The reason the economy is knackered is because of many years of government borrowing. The debt repayments have been massive and passed on to the taxpayer. The cost of wars and weapons systems and debt have been put on to industry and individuals and so they have become uncompetative. Manufacturing has been exported because of it. Borrowing money has caused house prices to become overinflated and the population had to borrow more to buy. As they thought they're house prices would go up forever they borrowed against home equity and also took out credit cards. Britons now have more debt than the rest of the EU combined.

This has nothing to do with US house-prices.

What then happened is that in London and New York deregulation caused Main Street banks to speculate on derivatives. The underlying assets in those derivatives were falsely evaluated. These fraudulant evaluations were given AAA status by both the City and Wall St rating agencies. These derivative were then traded between the banks who took out real money in terms of commissions and bonuses while the derivatives market rocketed to $700 trillion. That's more than 10 times global GDP. Naturally that imploded on the balance sheets of the banks. Instead of admitting that they are insolvent they are using fraudulant accounting practices, again passed by London and Washington, to hide their losses. In the meantime they are getting bail-outs from the taxpayer to try and plug the holes in their balance sheets.

The holes are too big. The ban
73

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 18/10/2009 17:02:04

The holes are too big. The banks will collapse but not before the taxpayers are indebted for generations to come. The banks should have been allowed to collapse and their 'assets' traded at discount.

Until they are the banks will not issue credit and will continue robbing accounts with high interest rates and charges.

That's why the economy is in a mess. It was Brown and his fraudster bank buddies. And they didn't just screw us but the same with lots of other countries who believed the City was operating according to sound money practices.
74

hoblar,

18/10/2009 17:22:47
The SNP need to speak loud and clear against the likes of the useless and idiotic candidate for Labour in Glasgow NE who has recently lied by stating that he would fight in Westminster on issues......drumroll.....that are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament.

The SNP must ensure and be outspoken about Labour politicians avoiding their atrocious record at Westminster when fighting a Westminster election, we need to hear the issues that westminster politicians can affect, not some mickey mouse pretence that a Westminster politician is there to oppose the Scottish Government or even influence it.

There are two parliaments, only one is related to the issues in Glasgow NE by election, the election that Labour have avoided and thereby shown contempt for the Glasgow NE constituents and voters.
75

hoblar,

18/10/2009 17:34:40
New in the Hootsmon:

BBC defends Humpty Dumpty decision

BBC defends decision to change the ending of nursery rhyme Humpty Dumpty
Published Date: 18 October 2009

The BBC has defended a decision to change the ending of nursery rhyme Humpty Dumpty.
A version used on the CBeebies channel was altered so rather than "couldn't put Humpty together again" all the King's horses "made Humpty happy again".

The broadcaster said the change was made purely for creative reasons rather than trying to give a soft version of the rhyme for children.

A spokeswoman said: "We play nursery rhymes with their original lyrics all the time and the small change to Humpty Dumpty was done for no other reason than being creative and entertaining."

Labour MP Tom Harris told the Independent on Sunday: "For goodness sake. Obviously children will find it far too violent, distressing and horrific that Humpty should not be put back together again.

"This is what happens when adults try to make these kinds of judgments."

He told the newspaper that he had also seen Little Miss Muffet changed on the channel, so that she made friends with the spider instead of running away.

But the BBC spokeswoman said that alteration was made for similar creative reasons and there was "nothing more to it than that."

No commentary allowed so far, but great to see Tom harris, the Labour Numptie Humpty Dumpty expert get a quote again.

This unionist is against the Scottish voting system at Holyrood and tried to interfere with it because it didn't guarantee a labour victory.

I wouldn't bother putting him back together when he falls off his perch.
76

Queen D,

18/10/2009 18:16:50
"I'm surprised that anyone could possibly think any of my comments were rabid - I thought the injections had worked - but if the nationalists carry on expressing such hatred for fellow Scots who don't agree with them on the question of their campaign to break up our country, then nobody could describe their approach as anything but negative.

Do us all a favour and stop the hatred! Or I'll post another McGlashan film! I'm serious!"

That came from the Nippy Sweetie , have all you nasty Nats been rude and evil to the lady?
Far be it from me to suggest that she /he posts in an attempt to goad anyone into an unguarded comment, but lets face it, the Scotsman has been caught out before.
Respond not to those who are only spoiling for a fight or a means of irritating you into saying " Awa an bile yer heid , ye pillock ye" ( I like that English word! even more than tumshie!)
77

Curley Bill,

18/10/2009 18:49:35
#16 Fifi la Bonbon:
'#12 - I think you're going to feel awfully let down as we fail to have our hearts and minds won by Mister Salmond'

You know the old saying, Fifi, "Grab 'em by the balls, and their hearts and minds will follow!"
78

Jo Public,

18/10/2009 19:36:46
I hope the SNP don't lower themselves into fighting dirty like the Labour party have done for years. The SNP have positive ideas, the Labour lot are so negative. Please don't inflict another term of Gray, Curran and Brankin on us please.
79

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 18/10/2009 20:00:05
This is an example of how dirty unionist propaganda works. There is nothing negative in what is being proposed, that is just the slant that the unionist journalist and his unionist editor is putting on the story. If politically minded get duped how do you think the population feel?

The fact is that Britain is bankrupt. That is an important fact and people need to know it. Scotland should be preparing its exit strategy. Problem and solution.

Before we have talked about why we want independence. Now we need to talk about why it is a good thing and why the union is going to be extremely impoverishing.

Some otherwise intelligent people who are talking about not wanting to be negative. Well, what you are really suggesting is that we perpetuate a lie to Scots. A lie that the British economy is healthy when its not.

People need to know.
80

morris,

edinburgh 18/10/2009 20:04:39
My own feeling is the SNP would be failing in their duty to not emphasise the inadequacies of Labour and the Union, but I would not classify doing so as being negative.eg Vote Labour or LID and guarantee a Tory government in Scotland which nobody wants !

It depends of course upon what they accuse Labour of (which usually bears a high degree of accuracy) as compared the Labour tactics (if you can call it tactical) of attack everything whether justified or not,and make it up in the absence of substance as you go along,reaching conclusions which are inaccurate and often diametrically opposite that which is factual.

Now that's positively NEGATIVE !
In truth if Labour could defend the Union they would do so. They don't in any meaningful sense .Draw your own conclusions!
81

BlackDouglas2,

Britain is bankrupt 18/10/2009 20:05:34
76 Hoblar

"The SNP need to speak loud and clear against the likes of the useless and idiotic candidate for Labour in Glasgow NE who has recently lied by stating that he would fight in Westminster on issues......drumroll.....that are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament."

Come on Hoblar - he didn't lie at all, be fair. Let's not be like the shills on here. This poor fella just didn't know which powers were reserved and which not..

I get the feeling that this fella is getting slaughtered.
82

morris,

edinburgh 18/10/2009 21:08:22
83 Whilst Labour clearly have to attack the SNP record at Holyrood since they dare not campaign on their own record at Westmidden, it is even more disingenuous than the Glenrothes seat was, because even if the Labour candidate was successful, he would not be able to do anything about these issues he had campaigned on, because Westmidden cannot interfere in matters devolved to Edinburgh, and he cannot speak in Edinburgh either,so every thing he says is an insult to the electorate ,because he cannot represent them in such matters at all,or..............the other way to conclude this is they would look foolish indeed voting for a Labour candidate who campaigned on issues he has no authority to vote on.At least he is only accused of being disingenuous in that case, and
presumably Labour are counting upon their electorate being stupid and not being able to work this out.
Whichever theory you run with it shows Labour as hopelessly out of touch with reality.They are for the high jump sooner or later and I dont mean Olympic gold!
83

langtonian,

uphall 18/10/2009 21:49:29
#20Fifi la Bonbon#
Encapsulated in a nut shell-perfectly.
84

Reject London,

DUNDEE 18/10/2009 21:52:03
Labour in Scotland are a completely impotent force - there sheer existence is to gather enough MPs to keep the Tories out of power in London - they offer no vision for Scotland and have caused immense harm to Scotland's growth over the decades.

I agree - let the nation realise just who this immoral and shambolic Blair/Brown era has left the union on its knees - starting to sell off its assets to get through the coming years.

UK - OK? - No not really.
85

livilion,

livingston 18/10/2009 23:45:31
#2+#20Fifi la Bonbon

You envoke Godwin's Law.
Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel?

As a fervent British Nationalist yourself Fifi, you should be well aware of your side's traditional penchant for black shirts and 'projecting force' into other folks' back yard.

Edward VIII of England, the Union Movement of the 6th Baronet of Ancoats, Sir Oswald Mosley and their blue blood fellow travellers come readily to mind.

Frankly, I would have thought that Unionists like yourself would be keener to keep that particularly sordid cupboard locked well shut.

g'night.
86

Brianwci,

19/10/2009 00:41:41
Highlighting aspects of the Union and/or opposition policies which have a negative value for Scotland is not fighting dirty.

It has a valid place in any campaign but the main thrust of the campaign must be a positive sell of SNP achievements/policies and Scotland's huge potential and magnificent record in world affairs.

In short we DO need to return to the days of Dundee East and West Lothian/Govan style campaigns.

Loud, Bold and Informative. Such campaigns intimidate and demoralise the opposition and enliven the Home Troops.

We have the arguments and the prime facts, let's get them out into the market place a la Dundee East.
87

hoblar,

19/10/2009 11:57:42
The hopeless British nationalism of the dreadfully incompetent commentators fifi, langtonian and the timberkak effort is the kind that we know sits uneasy with us liberal minded Scots.

The Orange Order no doubt approve though, so they do have some fans.

Wave that union jack by all means, but not in my face.

ta
88

Miss H,

19/10/2009 15:23:48
2 It looks like the past two national elections in Scotland which the SNP won and Labour lost.

Cheers!
89

JC1,

Glasgow 21/10/2009 16:20:53
Isn't there an ununhabited island where we can put all the aggreived nats so they can leave the rest of us alone while they moan aggreived and alone?
90

peter1958,

Glasgow 27/10/2009 13:32:38
Dunno what the fuss is about - the nats have never fought a clean campaign yet!
You don't honestly think that we in the Labour Party give a monkey's spit about how the SNP campaign in any given election do you? They do what they do and we do what we do!

Frankly, I like my elections to have a bit of spice to them and if mud can be thrown in both directions so much the better.

One of my "dream debates" would be Mandelson v Salmond - no holds barred, no subject taboo, no lawyers required! Now that could be entertaining.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.