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SNP prepares for battle over North Sea cash

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Published Date: 18 May 2008
THE SNP Government is demanding talks with Westminster on transferring billions of pounds of annual North Sea oil and gas revenues north of the border.
In an escalation of cross-border hostilities, Finance Secretary John Swinney has also written to Chancellor Alastair Darling arguing that Holyrood should set its own levels of petrol duty and road tax.

Drivers and hauliers have backed the move but
Treasury sources dismissed the demands, saying major changes were unlikely. Swinney's letter, which details the Nationalists' response to the Chancellor's budget statement earlier this year, also cites a motion agreed by the Scottish Parliament earlier this month which voices "disappointment" at some of the decisions taken in the budget and regret that measures to tackle fuel poverty are insufficient.

On the transfer of valuable oil and gas revenues, Swinney says: "Such a change would mean that we could finally invest these revenues in the future wealth and success of Scotland after decades of unfortunate policy decisions by the UK Government that have seen oil revenues directed towards filling the black hole in Britain's finances rather than being invested in the sensible manner that has been adopted elsewhere.

"The transfer of oil and gas revenues would form part of discussions between officials on a move to greater financial independence for Scotland."

Swinney also criticises the "consistent failure" of the UK Government over decisions on fuel and vehicle excise duty.

He adds: "There is the need to recognise that people living in rural areas are disproportionately affected by increased fuel prices because of the greater distances involved and fewer alternatives to the car.

"While those who live and work in urban areas have the choice of which vehicles they can use, such choice is not available to farmers and others who live in rural areas.

"I request that in the future you agree for decisions on fuel duty and vehicle excise duty to be taken in Scotland given that we would take greater consideration of the rural impact of such policy levers, and the impact on our haulage industry."

The Finance Secretary previously wrote to Darling prior to the UK budget statement in March calling for a meeting between officials to discuss a move to greater financial independence for Scotland. He added: "I would be grateful for your confirmation that you are content for such meetings to now take place".

Road users backed the move. Phil Flanders, the Scottish director of the Road Haulage Association, said: "It's a very positive idea and it's right that the decisions on road tax and fuel duty in Scotland should be taken according to Scottish needs. Bring it on, as they say in politics.

"Our Northern Ireland colleagues have the option to go south and fill up and save a few hundred pounds a tank. We don't have that here."

Neil Greig, head of policy in Scotland for the Institute of Advanced Motorists, said: "It's an interesting idea and I can imagine it being very popular. It will be very relevant to drivers in rural Scotland. It is a sad fact that the people who have little or no option to choose public transport and who are the ones most reliant on cars are the ones who must spend most to drive."

He added: "However, the question will be what the money is spent on. Right now, little of the money raised from drivers is spent on roads."

A Treasury spokesman could not confirm whether Swinney's letter had been received but added: "We will be replying to Mr Swinney in due course."

A source at the Treasury signalled that Whitehall would be unlikely to give the SNP what they wanted.

He said: "The position on taxation is already set out very clearly in the existing legislation. I don't think we should be expecting any changes."

Scottish Labour reacted with scorn. The party's finance spokesman Iain Gray said: "This is nothing short of political posturing from the SNP and it's a blatant attempt to divert attention away from their statement this week that exposed the party's lack of ideas to take Scotland forward."



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1

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 18/05/2008 00:22:56
Demanding, now that isn't John Swinneys style.
2

Edward,

18/05/2008 00:51:11
At last a Scottish Government that works for Scotland as opposed to the previous bunch who just didnt work
3

Cincinnatus,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 00:56:19
The challenge then is do we want to squander that wealth on the fripperies the SNP are currently funding. Rather than focus on a creating a sustainable and profitable economy.
4

,

18/05/2008 00:56:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

mesmiths,

fife 18/05/2008 01:12:29
WARDOG #2 WOW. How long before that news is burried away, under the usual unionist dependency arguments, never to be mentioned again.

Labour should note that we the people don't see such moves as this one from Swinney, simply, as 'picking fights' or 'aggitation'. We see them as natural actions of a government that puts Scotland first and last and which is not in fear of masters in London.
6

Guga II,

Rockall 18/05/2008 01:26:46
"Scottish Labour reacted with scorn."

That is about what you would expect from the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch).

This Parcel of Rogues don't give a damn for the Scottish people or for the effect extremely high fuel prices have in rural Scotland. They don't care that all the money from Scottish oil is stolen by their political masters in London to subsidise the English. They don't care that none of the money is being placed in an oil fund for the future development of Scotland.

The Labour Party in Scotland are bought and sold for English gold, and have as much consideration for the Scottish people as the traitors that sold us out in 1707.
7

,

18/05/2008 01:33:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

gerad,

greenock 18/05/2008 02:44:12
Please give us a chance to prove we can Independent. Come on Brown call a Election.
9

Hugo of Garven,

18/05/2008 07:51:27
"SNP prepares for battle over North Sea cash"

If you don't ask, you dont get.
10

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 18/05/2008 08:35:13
THE UNION with england is DEAD!
11

Cludgie,

18/05/2008 08:48:14
Well, it's this simple... If your next door neighbour came into your house and plugged in an extension cable which ran to his house and started running all his power from your house, you might be a little miffed. Time to unplug Whitehall's extension cable (umbilical noose) and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Here's a deal for Darling... we retain our own oil and gas revenues and London stops the "subsidies"... although the only reason they are able to provide aforementioned, is because of the wealth they have robbed from Scotland's natural resources.
12

Alan B,

18/05/2008 08:59:51
For all the false claims about the snp causing fights this is the first contentious issue.

The snp is right however. There policy seems to have been stability in the first yr and now start standing up for scotland.

In england they have been fed the line scotland are subsidy junkies. Scottish unionist politicians have also lied to the people of scotland about this aswell. Mccrone showed that labours own internal report showed that scotland would have been one of the wealthiest countries in the world if we went independent, but still went to the electrate saying it would be economic meltdown.

Putting the issue of independence aside for a moment, scotland must move to fiscal autonomy asap.

That would put at a stroke an end to the lies about subsidy junkies. It would put to an end english moaning about scotland being subsidy junkies re-educating them in the process, removing much of the bad feeling between certain sections of the populations. It would also allow scotland to benefit from the goldmine in the north sea before it is too late. Aswell as the advantage of allowing us to set fiscal policy to improve scotlands woeful economic growth.
13

Alan B,

18/05/2008 09:02:25
Brown is supposedly scottish. Allowing scotland to keep its oil wealth is in scotlands advantage.

Will brown put scotland before his career?

I am not holding my breath.
14

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 09:04:15
In the last year Norway has taken in around £7,500 per head of population in oil revenue to be used as they see fit.
Scots were probably taken in for a similar amount by the UK government who squandered the lot.
15

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 09:14:57
#17 Auld Twa

However, petrol is about the same price in Norway and Scotland. The fuel-duty grandstanding really is just jumping on a populist bandwagon and proclaiming that the price of fuel is unfair, with the knowledge that fuel duty would not change if it was under the Sct Exec's control.

If Scotland did get all the N. Sea oil revenue, it would miss out on the financial revenues raised in the SE of England. Six-of-one, half-a-dozen of the other.
16

Toast,

18/05/2008 09:30:36
And what about backdating our oil revenue 30 years,reducing corporate taxation would make Scotland the no-one destination in Europe for corporate headquarters and Edinburghs financial industry would give london a good run for its money,the only downside would be more parasitic bankers moving north.
17

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 18/05/2008 09:33:13
#18 Tin Man

That's hardly a forensic financial analysis! How about giving some figures to back up your point?
18

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 09:35:18
Alan B (15): "In england they have been fed the line scotland are subsidy junkies."

If oil revenue is included, then Scotland certainly isn't subsidised -- even before the recent increase in oil prices, oil income roughly balanced higher Scottish public sector/welfare costs. However, what would Scotland's position be without oil? I suspect many English readers do not accept the view that "It's Scotland's Oil!", in which case the economic argument is somewhat different.
19

Alan B,

18/05/2008 09:35:19
#The Tin Man

"If Scotland did get all the N. Sea oil revenue, it would miss out on the financial revenues raised in the SE of England. Six-of-one, half-a-dozen of the other."

The thatcher monetary experiment that generated the finacial wealth for the south east of england was based on north sea oil.

If u look back to the 70s britain was in economic meltdown (sout east included). The uk had to hold out the begging bowl to the imf for emergency load to keep us afloat.

The labours mcrone report showed that scotland would be one of the wealthies countries in the world if we went independent at that time.

An snp question to the tory treasury in the mid 90s about the how much scotland contributed compared to what we take out. this showed that scotland has contributed an excess of £27 billion (believe it was based on 90% of oil), for a period between i think 79 and 95. that was like england giving £270 billion to the us as a pressie. As income tax from scotland would have been roughly 200million for a 1p in the pound at the time that was like u giving away a 1/3 of all income tax.

The fact is ireland who was significantly poorer than scotland in the 70s and Norway who was roughly the same are now both significantly wealthier. A heavy price for the union.
20

Alan B,

18/05/2008 09:43:20
#Fairfax

Good Morning.

" I suspect many English readers do not accept the view that "It's Scotland's Oil!""

did u get the links about the £27 billion u asked for on Friday? Was not sure if u had left before i posted them.

It is either in scottish waters or it is not.

U are right without oil then the economic argument changes.

My biggest arguments are not oil per se. But the under performance of the scottish economy. To address that i think scotland needs control of fiscal policy and also the address monetary policy.

Monetary problem being too high interest rates for the scottish economy by using sterling because of the higher growth and inflationary pressures from the south. (the north of england have a similar problem).

u will notice the eddie george (the govenor at the bank of england) comments about unemployment being a price worth paying in the north to control inflation in the south.

I can understand where he was coming from as his remit was righly inflation control. But the underlying problem was the failure of governments to address north south divides.
21

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 09:46:35
Alan B (22): "If u look back to the 70s britain was in economic meltdown (sout east included). The uk had to hold out the begging bowl to the imf for emergency load to keep us afloat."

The IMF loan, in 1976, was in many ways the beginning of monetarism, since its conditions encouraged the reduction of public spending that had caused Britain's problems in the first place. Oil was welcome income, but would have simply been wasted without the beginning of the end for massive susidies to inefficient heavy industry dominated by union leaders more interested in Marx than Adam Smith.

"The thatcher monetary experiment that generated the finacial wealth for the south east of england was based on north sea oil."

Oil was, of course, important in the late 1970s and early 1980s, particularly to the Treasury, but the financial wealth of SE England really wasn't based on oil. Why do you believe this to be so? It is true that oil was important to Treasury income, which increasingly spent it on welfare as the zombie industries of heavy industry were allowed to wither.
22

Alan B,

18/05/2008 09:46:49
#Fairfax

this is one of the links i posted. this was on the bbc site about the £27 billion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/politics97/forum/answers.shtml

search for 27 billion and see the answer rather than the question.

also

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199697/cmhansrd/vo970205/debtext/70205-22.htm

The fig i believe were based on 90% of oil being scottish which was the high end of the uk range of the oil divide (which was something like 80-90%).
23

Brian S,

London/Edinburgh 18/05/2008 09:51:06
I'm with the SNP on this one.
24

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 09:53:09
#22 Alan B

The changes brough about by the Thatcher government also helped to generate the finacial wealth that we see in Scotland, now. However, that was two decades ago, and the World has moved-on.

Ireland is not Scotland. Ireland was a predominantly agrarian society 20 years ago, Scotland was an urbanised, industrailised society. Ireland has an entirely different outlook on social security.

I am not really qualified to comment on Norway, but it is a beautiful country, and Bergen definately looks nothing like Glasgow, and I don't think it ever will.
25

Alan B,

18/05/2008 09:59:32
#Fairfax

I consider monetarim to have started in 79 with the election of thatcher. this was becuase of the failure of labours inflation policy ie income policy to control inflation.

Monetarim is the targetting of the money supply to control of inflation. Britain first targetted M3 and then when the correlation between M3 and inflation did not really materialise we targeted M4.

Monetarism was not really about fiscal policy. but moneratists beleive it should be run along with supply side policies. It was really an abandonment of Kenyes. Going back abit now in my knowledge but it was argued becuase of the break down in the trade of between growth and inflation in the late 60s known as the phillips curve.

We do not really pursue moneratism any more as Lawson moved to inflation targetting in the late 80s. although it is the same tool (interest rates) for the same end.

"Oil was welcome income, but would have simply been wasted without the beginning of the end for massive susidies to inefficient heavy industry dominated by union leaders more interested in Marx than Adam Smith. "

Agree

"Oil was, of course, important in the late 1970s and early 1980s, particularly to the Treasury, but the financial wealth of SE England really wasn't based on oil."

I see where u are coming from. What i meant was oil helped keep the uk afloat financially at the time to allow thatcher to bring in the supply side policies. It were those supply side policies that transformed the se economy. Without oil wealth it would have been near impossible for thatcher to do what she did.

Heath actually tried a very light weight thatcherism but backed of when trouble started.

Would thatcher have been able to have interest rates at 17/18% (against correct me if my memory is wrong of the early 80s and cut taxes if it were not for the oil wealth).

I guess what i am saying is without oil thatcher would not have had a platform to transform the south east so quickly. Many people i
26

Alan B,

18/05/2008 09:59:54
cont..

Many people in the north (england included) believe that run a london first or pro south economy.
27

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 10:00:33
Alan B (23): "did u get the links about the £27 billion u asked for on Friday? Was not sure if u had left before i posted them."

I did (for which thanks), but I'm still a sceptic on this: I'm not convinced these calculations have correctly costed the Scottish welfare state, the public sector, although it's certainly a difficult estimate -- I don't know the answer, as yet. Of course, if oil is excluded from the equation, then there has been no nontrivial subsidy.

"u will notice the eddie george (the govenor at the bank of england) comments about unemployment being a price worth paying in the north to control inflation in the south."

This is a divide, but the Treasury often took the opposite view: inflation in the South had often been greatly worsened by government policies (before the 1980s) which, essentially, printed money to avoid unemployment in heavy industry, overwhelmingly to the benefit of the North (both England and Scotland). If you believe George was wrong to take the view that unemployment in the North was justified to avoid unemployment in the South in the 1980s and 1990s, do you also view the earlier opposite decisions were unjustified, when inflation had been the price for supporting the North.
28

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 10:00:34
#21 Fairfax,

I believe the above study only allocated around 82% of UK oil resources to Scotland - somewhat at the lower end of the scale. I'm not sure why English people not accepting the position of oil and Scotland really makes any difference to the argument.

Oil was tremendously important to the finances of the Thatcher Government for a great proportion of its time in office. Nigel Lawson, in his memoirs indicates the central position of these revenues. The idea it was a successful industry to be milked.
29

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 10:06:19
#25 AlanB

I think this may be the link you are after:

http://tinyurl.com/57hswf

It takes account of total government expenditure on Scotland - and by dint of extent, the size of Scotland's public sector and all other issues associated with Government spending in Scotland.
30

b.allan,

alba 18/05/2008 10:06:20
Go John Swinney!! Get us our money back from those treacherous people in Westminster.
31

Alan B,

18/05/2008 10:06:55
#The Tin Man

I agree we have to move on. But i think it is important when we look to the future we understand our recent economic history.

McCrone while no longer relevent for today is important as it shows what unionist parties have down against scotland interests.

I heard Brian Wilson on tv a few yrs ago when mccrone story broke (snr labour in 80s) argue that everyone knew scotland would be very wealthy if we had gone independent in 79.

However labour lied saying it would be an economic meltdown. That is the point. Poeple like him would privately know scotland would be better off independent but would run election campaigns saying the opposite.

It shows that labour of the john smiths, cooks, browns could not be trusted.

Even tony benn was on record as saying scotland would just waste the money and needed england to run them. And he was supposedly one of the real democrats.






32

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 10:09:41
The extremely interesting book, bu Murkens and Keating (2002) "Scottish Independence: A Practical Guide", in its own calculations also notes that Scotland ran a large surplus throughout much of that period too - the only part of the UK to do so, each and every year.
33

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 10:10:22
Grant (31): "I'm not sure why English people not accepting the position of oil and Scotland really makes any difference to the argument."

I suspect that many of the English begin from the axiom that oil was, and remains, a UK resource, in which case Scotland has, arguably been subsidised by England.

"Oil was tremendously important to the finances of the Thatcher Government for a great proportion of its time in office."

That's certainly true: from 1979 until, roughly 1985, I would say, slightly more than half the length of Thatcher's administration. However, following that, the restored economic health of the general UK economy, and in particular SE England, began to eclipse it.
34

Al Ford,

Insch 18/05/2008 10:14:53
This is an entirely legitimate move by the Scottish Government even though Mr Swinney will be in no doubt as to the nature of the response which he will receive from the UK government. A positive response would be helpful to the Scottish economy. A negative one will be electorally advantageous to the SNP.

If you make use of the technology at your fingertips by taking a look from time to time at what the provincial governments of Canada, e.g., do by way of revenue raising, you will not take long to realize that oil revenues are not per se inalienably and necessarily the province of central government. Tell the Canadian provinces that they cannot raise their oil revenues and see what happens.

So, even though Scotland is not yet independent, it is not unreasonable or inappropriate for the Scottish Government to be raising the question of oil revenues now, together with bringing forward the other very sensible proposals reported above, which would appear to have widespread support, as one would expect.
35

Alan B,

18/05/2008 10:15:11
#The Tin Man

Off course ireland is different and so is norway.

However the point is ireland was poorer in the 70s and is now richer (without oil).

Norway was had similar wealth and is not richer with a huge oil fund.

Scotland had a goldmine and has little to show for it with a slow growing economy.


Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

all have higher gdp per capita ppp than the uk. Showing small countries are outperforming the big ones in europe.

why have we performed so poorly against other small nations why? are we unique in that we just cannot do better. or is it something to do with the way the union has not served our interests.

Take monetary policy. Interest rates in the uk have been too high for the scottish economy for most of the last 30yrs. (north of englands too). Governments will not make the structural changes necessary to address the north south divide so that interest rates are more in line with nothern needs.

High interest rates when u have slow growth and low inflation kills the economy. If u have low growth and low inflation u lower interest rates. That is how u tend to manage western capitalist economies.

Take the euro. interest rates in euro countries are lower and have been for 30 odd yrs (over a period of time). it would most likely be beneficial for scotland to join but we are restricted from doing so. Economic madness.
36

Earman,

Dumfries 18/05/2008 10:16:57
Please please please would the Labour Party in Scotland just THINK what Scotland and its people could achieve if only they - SLAB - would grab with both hands this opportunity to truly represent Scotland instead of the Union. I just cannot believe that each and every Labour MSP is so blind and deaf to simply ignore what they MUST see and hear going on around them. Please, for your Nation's sake, wake up and start to be part of the process towards a dignified, inclusive and properly conducted negotiation towards independence. Surely our people deserve your support and encouragement, rather than the petty and negative comments and assertions currently on offer!
37

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 10:18:19
Alan B (28): "Would thatcher have been able to have interest rates at 17/18% (against correct me if my memory is wrong of the early 80s and cut taxes if it were not for the oil wealth)."

Inflation was also high at this point, so the nominal rate was much higher than the real rate. However, I certain agree that oil income was vital to the Treasury until, say, 1985. As to whether taxes could have been cut without oil wealth, I'm less sure. It would certainly have meant reduced public services and higher unemployment in heavy industry areas (obviously affecting the North more). I suppose I feel that, in some ways, oil wealth was a mixed blessing in the UK in the early 1980s: it would have been better to reduce the State. There is also the detrimental effect of becoming a petrocurrency, which harmed exports and, in particular, manufacturing.
38

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 10:18:44
Fairfax

Go and have a Google at International UN maritime law and explain why most English folk think or believe 90% or all North Sea natural resourses exploited by the UK doesnt belong to Scotland??

And while youre at it try and explain to that idiot Federalist that if Scotland gave up its national identity it would give up its right to own and exploit its own natural resourses.
39

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 10:19:03
#36 Fairfax.

The figures I have for 1985, from the book referenced above, show that in 1985, NS oil accounted for 10% of total UK Government incomes, halfing in the following two years, so you may well be right. Scotland's position in absolute surplus continued for several years after that however.

How, in all fairness can we have "UK resources" (North Sea oil in the Scottish defined sector of the Continental Shelf) and "English resources" (financial wealth from SE England). We either have full UK resources and no talk of subsidies, or we apportion resources to the various parts of the UK and work from first principles in that position. As a nationalist I favour the latter.

Seems to me a case of "what's yours in mine, but what's mine is mine". A very convenient argument.
40

Alan B,

18/05/2008 10:22:22
#Fairfax

"That's certainly true: from 1979 until, roughly 1985, I would say, slightly more than half the length of Thatcher's administration. However, following that, the restored economic health of the general UK economy, and in particular SE England, began to eclipse it."

I think that is the point. Rather than use a scottish resource to transform the scottish economy which was in a complete mess with high unemployment throughout the 80s, it was used to transform the south of england.

This is not nationalistic per se as the north of england got little too.

Lets take a specific policy. thatcher had a tax give away called mirus. Interest rate tax relieve. this was a subsidy to those that bought their own home. Home owership was much higher and rising in the south rather than the north. This was a specific subsidy that favoured the south.

The result of subsidising credit was to have higher interest rates. monetarism as we have discussed was to control the rate of growth of the money supply. if u subsidise credit ie money supply, and u want it to grow at a certain rate then u need to raise interest rates to make the effective cost of credit the same.

Higher interest rates for industry and the higher rate of the pound that is caused was more damaging to the northern economies than the south because of their economic make up).
41

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 10:23:46
Foulkes (41): "Go and have a Google at International UN maritime law and explain why most English folk think or believe 90% or all North Sea natural resourses exploited by the UK doesnt belong to Scotland??"

Certainly: that law applies to the UK, not to England or Scotland, so the current view of international law is that oil has indeed been a UK resource, not a Scottish resource, althought it would, of course, overwhelmingly become so if Scotland seceded.
42

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 10:26:38
#44 Fairfax

UK Law, however already delineates a Scottish and English share of the UK Continental Shelf. The Continental Shelf Act 1964, as amended by the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968.

Indeed, the precedent is already there.
43

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 10:29:10
Grant (42): "How, in all fairness can we have "UK resources" (North Sea oil in the Scottish defined sector of the Continental Shelf) and "English resources" (financial wealth from SE England)."

That's a good point: if one is a UK resource, then all are UK resources. However, that does not imply that we cannot speak of subsidies to particular regions of the UK. For example, East London was subsidised in the 1980s.
44

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 10:32:02
Grant (45): "UK Law, however already delineates a Scottish and English share of the UK Continental Shelf. "

It certainly does, but that does not imply that those areas then become Scottish and English resources at present: the ownership, under international law, resides with the UK.
45

Alan B,

18/05/2008 10:35:15
#Fairfax

Part of the problem with the uk is the tories are southern based party and have no interest in addressing the north south divide. Labour went on and on about it in the 80s but then dropped it with blair as the party seeked power by wooing middle england.

Some of this is structural as the uk was run in a very centralised manor. similar to france rather than germany.

u are rightish. so based on the right wing theory of crowding out. from an econmic perpective should the government and public sector depts etc not have been better moving from the high growth south east (london) and basing themselves say in manchester disributing government depts and institutions like bbc and bank or england through the uk.

from a keynes point of view would it not have been better to move this aggregate demand generated by the public sector and private sector that gravitates to the centre of power to somewhere like manchester that is truely middle britain.

This would have the advantage of allowing lower interest rates by reducing the inflationary impact of the south thus letting the whole uk grow more quickly.
46

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 10:38:46
#46 Very much so. Scotland isn't a region of the UK however. It is fair to say areas like Edinburgh and Aberdeen (City and Shire) more than likely subsidise poorer areas of Scotland like Dundee and Glasgow.

#47 Maybe not, but it already sets the precedent and kind of unbalances your view that many people view the North Sea resource as a UK resource, when legally and implicitly it isn't.

The boundaries themselves may not change, but the English and Scottish legal boundaries already follow international legal principles on the issue.
47

Alan B,

18/05/2008 10:43:32
#Grant

i think glasgow is made to look worse as it does not include the wealthy subburbs which in other cities are included in the city boundaries. loosely talking u would say the wealthies parts of glasgow would be Milngavie and Eastwood but are not actually part of glasgow.

The poor areas are more likely to be ur greenocks on the west coast and lanarkires in the central belt.
48

The Tin Man,

18/05/2008 10:45:26
#38 Alan B

Of course, you are correct (although the Faroes do suffer by comparison). However, if you extend that reasoning, you are proposing an economic argument for Milngavie declaring independence from Castlemilk.
49

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 10:49:33
44

Thank you for explaining yet another union benefit for Scotland. Scotland has indeed lost control of its resourses to Westminster hence why Swinney has to ask Westminster for them back.
And yet Scotland doesnt get a share of what you refer to as the SE English resourses Scotland gets the Barnett formula instead which actually equates to approx the same as 90% of todays NE oil revenues on crude oil alone ie approx 30bn.
So we appear to be subsidising the UK with our income taxation and local taxation our VAT our fuel cost taxation our National Insurance our road tax our company tax our TV licence tax our savings tax our inheretance tax our capital gains tax etc etc.
I think we can happily let England keep its SE income in exchange for our own.
50

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 10:50:59
#50 Very true AlanB. I would think of Milgnavie and Giffnock as part of Glasgow, but they aren't part of the Glasgow Council Area. I even class Lenzie as part of Glasgow....
51

Alan B,

18/05/2008 10:52:25
#51

Not sure how u work that out?

Are u replying to #38 as ur reply seems to have little to do with what i posted, with regard to scotland economic under performance and my views on monetary policy ie interest rates and currency.

52

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 10:55:49
#54 Alan B

No, I was replying to your GDP comparison between the UK and selected, smaller country's.
53

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 10:57:28
55

No matter how good the UK GDP is it doesnt affect the calculations within the Barnett formula so what good is a favourable UK GDP to Scotland???
54

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 10:57:33
#54 Alan B

I would think that interest rates in an indepedent Scotland would either be set by the European Central Bank, or the Bank of England.
55

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 10:59:15
57

Why not the RBS??
56

Nikostratos,

18/05/2008 11:00:16
Typical snp stirring......If they want to do things such as these. Then they best have their silly referendum asap .
57

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 11:00:50
#56 Foulkes

Out of interest, is there a similar formula for, say, Northumbria?
58

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 11:01:41
#58 Foulkes

Highly unlikely, mate.
59

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:01:44
59

Should have had the referendum in 1707.
60

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:02:11
61

Why??
61

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:02:50
60

Havent heard of one have you??
62

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 11:05:34
#57 That is an interesting point actually.

Whilst I'm not completely sold on the idea of EMU, there is anecdotal evidence that Scotland is on a similar business cycle to the Euro area, which has an impact on the conduct of monetary policy. Monetary policy in the UK is purely designed for the benefit of SE England, which is out of step with the rest of England and Scotland too.

The monetary policy of the Euro area is primarily designed for the economies of France, Germany, Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands and incrteasinly Poland. Germany and Belgium (the former being the largest economy in Europe) have a similar economic structure to Scotland in that they are largely post-industrial and suffer many of the same economic problems as Scotland does -slow economic growth. As a result, monetary policy in the Eurozone is largely going to be used as an economic stimulant.

This contrasts with UK monetary policy, largely utilised to slow down an overheating London and SE England.
63

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 11:07:35
#56

You are talking about a commercial bank. I think you mean the government. However, the Scotish enonomy would become considerably more dependent on the exchange-rate between whatever currency we had, and the $US,as oil is trades in $US.
64

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 11:10:02
#64

I would imaging there is such a thing, just not so widely advertised. After all, a Scotish gov would need a similar mechanism for funding in Sutherland and, say, Aberdeen.
65

Alan B,

18/05/2008 11:11:03
#55 U have lost me. Why by showing that small countries in western europe have outperformed big ones even the uk does it mean that Milngavie should be declaring itself independent.

My simple argument is
1)for a long time we were told that small nations could not compete with big nations. this has turned out to be false.
2)scotland has not done well economically with growth less that 2% over the last 30yrs on avg.
3)scotland has done less well than other small nations when u look at our growth rate.

as such we have to ask why and what changes can be made to address that. My conclusions are
1)take control of fiscal policy. why did films like brave heart and rob roy film in ireland. tax breaks. despite all the talk scotland could not compete and did not have the levers of power to effect change.
2)review our monetary position. ie euro
3)take economics decision for scotland by scotland. ie when scotland was in recession in the 80s we could not vote out the then government but when the south had a recession in the early 90s the tories did not last long.
66

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 11:14:55
Alan B (48): "Part of the problem with the uk is the tories are southern based party and have no interest in addressing the north south divide."

There's some truth to this, but recall also my argument above: for many years, the South had seen policies which benefitted the North. Still, I agree it's an important problem.

"u are rightish. so based on the right wing theory of crowding out. from an econmic perpective should the government and public sector depts etc not have been better moving from the high growth south east (london)"

Agreed. To some extent, this has occurred.

"This would have the advantage of allowing lower interest rates by reducing the inflationary impact of the south"

It would have been generally good, but its effect on the south's economy would have been relatively small, I suspect.
67

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:16:40
66

Are you referring to 58?? if so then why should it matter if Scottish currency depends on the US dollar the English pound or the Euro?? exchange rates fluctuate in and out of favour for all countries depending on various global commercial and financial situations. It wont be long before the Chinese Yuan becomes a major player. Maybe we should tie our currency to the Yuan as a future investment??
68

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:17:50
67

Are you referring to local taxation by any chance??
69

Alan B,

18/05/2008 11:18:33
#The Tin Man

"I would think that interest rates in an indepedent Scotland would either be set by the European Central Bank, or the Bank of England. "

There are 3 choices:

1)scottish currency: has the advantage that interest rates would be set for the benefit of the scottish economy. disadvantage is currency fluxations with our markets in uk and euro area.
2)sterling: interest rates within this area have been too high for scottish economy. There is no government action to address the north south divide to alievate this problem.
3)euro; interest rates within this area are much more closely aligned for the needs of the scottish economy. it removes currency fluxations within the euro single market. has the disadvantage that uk will have a different currency and hence fluxations.

While no option is perfect i would say the euro is the best option for the scottish economy. It would be better if the rest of the uk was too join to but we should not wait. I also worry if the uk joins that scotland gets locked in at too high a rate.

The problem with the situation at the moment is the scottish parliament cannot decide to join even if it views it in scotland economic interest. Jack Mcconnell supported the euro. Labour officially supports the euro but cannot join for political reasons. The lib dems support it too. So there is support for it within the political parties but they will not consider it even if in scotland interests.
70

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 11:18:46
Grant (49): "kind of unbalances your view that many people view the North Sea resource as a UK resource, when legally and implicitly it isn't."

Being legally Scottish does not imply it's not a UK resource. After all, would you argue that UK resources in England, being governed by the laws of England, are therefore entirely English, implying no Scottish share? My point here is that legal jurisdiction does not imply ownership at present, although I obviously agree that it would after dissolution of the UK.
71

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:21:02
72

I believe the Euro is inevitable whether Scotland remains within the UK or not. I believe our political masters are only waiting for a favourable exchange rate to avoid another black Wednesday.
72

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:24:48
73

The UK doesnt share its resourses. Each region raises its own resourses in the form of local taxation the rest goes to central Government except in the case of Scotland like I said we get the Barnett formula in exchange for all our local resourses hence the imbalance.
73

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 11:26:42
Alan B (72): "While no option is perfect i would say the euro is the best option for the scottish economy."

That might be so, but my understanding is that this could not be an immediate choice: there would be several years of qualifying under ECB rules. Therefore, at least initially, Scotland has to choose its currency. To my mind, the natural choice is to drop Sterling, possibly following a short transition period.

"The problem with the situation at the moment is the scottish parliament cannot decide to join"

There is the interesting legal point that Scottish law does not have legal tender for notes: essentially all notes (including Bank of England ones) are, as it were, rather like cheques in status. With that in mind, as far as I can see, there would be nothing to stop the Scottish Government deciding to move to the Euro, although it would then have to fund Pound-Euro currency volatility.
74

Alan B,

18/05/2008 11:29:48
Fairfax

"If you believe George was wrong to take the view that unemployment in the North was justified to avoid unemployment in the South in the 1980s and 1990s, do you also view the earlier opposite decisions were unjustified, when inflation had been the price for supporting the North."

I do not take the view he was wrong. Just that it exposed the problem by which interest rates were too high for scotlands economic benefit.

He was only the messenger and he was wrongly shot down at the time. I liked the honestly. The problem was the it was the governments job to address the structural problems that caused this to exist.

Government since my economic knowlegde early 80s (maybe late 70s) have failed to address this issue.

With regard to policies before that 50s, 60s and 70s it is before my time to really comment on the printing of money and the reasons. I am well aware though that british monetary policy post war is generally seen as poor particularly 60s and 70s.



75

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 11:33:17
#73 Fairfax

""Being legally Scottish does not imply it's not a UK resource. After all, would you argue that UK resources in England, being governed by the laws of England, are therefore entirely English""

Well, it's not really the same thing. There are resources that are under public ownership (ie owned by the state) which may be under English jurisdiction in England, which Scotland would be naturally due a pro-rata share of, on independence. These are shared UK assets, but only by dint of the fact that Scottish taxypayers have paid a share of them. But I don't lay a Scottish claim to the financial wealth generated in London, or any other private economic, taxation generating activity that takes place in England, or anywhere else.

Anything legally defined as Scottish "is" Scottish, and that doesn't necessarily imply "ownership", either.
76

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:42:20
78

How about a share of the gold reserves within the Bank of England are we entitled to a share based on population ratio or assets given to the UK over 300 years or a share based on the Barnett formula??
77

Alan B,

18/05/2008 11:42:54
#69 Fairfax

"It would have been generally good, but its effect on the south's economy would have been relatively small, I suspect."

In trying to address the north south divide i am not trying to hurt the south just sort out the slow economic activity in the north.

If government were to

1) have moved government north to manchester. moved the foreign office to edin, defence and all associated expenditure to newcastle, treasure and renamed bank of england (uk central bank) to glasgow. (2000 high paid jobs with bank of england atleast it was early 90s). BBC to manchester. whitehall to liverpool.

as well as all this spending and associated jobs that come from it. it would also attract the private sector that is drawn to the power centre.

2)the public companies that were privatised. why was bp head quartered in london. it was said if the uk government moved the energy dept to aberdeen it would move headquarters.

bt had something like 200,000 employees most in the south.

3) the government should have reversed the tebit test. rather than just telling people to get on their bikes they should have encourraged companies to do so. immigratiion to solve southern labour market tightness could have been addressed by companies moving north.

a lower corporation tax could have encourgaged this if need be.

4)build a fast train from london to glas/ed. there was motorway from lon to carlise but not to glas until last decade. edin links south are crap.

when euro tunnel was getting built there was the whole thing about link to scotland. they sold the trains bought for scottish link to canada i believe.

5) government should ensure policies do not harm the north. eg mirus, even tax on flights; not the best way to encourage more direct flights.

6)if inflation in the south is a problem preventing the rest of the country having lower interest rates and having lower economic growth. take specific measure to address southern inflation.

eg a)restrict cre
78

Alan B,

18/05/2008 11:43:19
cont..

eg a)restrict credit ie mortages by proportion of salary.
b)raise tax for london only to remove the spending powers. can be dressed up for the higher london expenditure. (3% lit :) )

make the structrual reforms necessary.


79

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 11:46:12
#79 Yes, we'd be due a share of these assets, as well as the liabilities (national debt etc). Then there is the defence estate, diplomatic estate, government investment and real estate and all other capital.

Normally a population or wealth based share is the formula used to distribute the assets and liabilities, Scotland's share would be about one twelfth in such circumstances. That is a cost that rUK would have to bear, but I'm not sure that would be too problematic for them to do.
80

Alan B,

18/05/2008 11:50:47
#76 Fairfax

"but my understanding is that this could not be an immediate choice"

as i say i would like the discussion to start within the sp about the merits or disadvantages of the euro with an economic assessment.

Off course transitions are important, this is something to be discussed and we should try to seek the best way forward for the scottish economy. I would prefer more of a direct switch over to the euro (yes that may not be possible but should be explored).




With regard to ur second point. That is why i think fiscal autonomy is so important. If only defence was the shared power of the big expenditures then scotland would not have to fund any fluxations beyond defence and even here that could be minimal as scotland could pay scottish regiments in euros etc as that would be the currency where they are based.
81

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:54:23
82

So you say when the UK Parliament dissolves the act of union the split in resourses would be based on population ratios? but international law regarding natural resourses is based on geographical location and not on political treaties.
Isnt Gold a natural resourse??
82

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 11:59:39
#84 No, I'm not talking about natural resources. I'm talking about assets and liabilities in the charge of the UK Government - gold reserves (well, what's left of them since Gordon Brown sold them at the bottom of the market) are held at the Bank of England.
83

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:02:32
85

But Natural resourses are national assets if in public ownership are the Gold reserves in public ownership as well as the oil fields?? and dont liabilities belong to those who incurred them?? i.e local dept belongs locally??
84

Alan B,

18/05/2008 12:05:21
#86

Grant is not arguing that oil should be split with the rest of the uk on population terms. Something like that if in scottish waters is scottish and vice versa.

He arguing about accumulated resources. ie gold reserves.
85

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 12:08:41
A currency tied to ther US dollar would be good for one part of the economy (oil revenues), whereas a the Euro would be best for the rest of the economy. A bit of a conundrum.
86

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 12:12:43
#86 Foulkes

The oil reserves are owned by whatever company has bought the particular block exploration licence. Oil production is taxed as it is produced, minus development costs. The UK dosn't have any state oil companies, and when it did, BP, Britoil, and British Gas were disaster areas.
87

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:14:31
87

I know what he is trying to argue but you Fairfax and Grant are trying to be too clever too urbanite and trying too hard to look knowledgable you keep tripping over the fundamentals. The truth and real problem is there is no legal precedent to the break up of the Union the closest we have is the break by Ireland from the union which resulted in them loosing 6 counties to the UK by gerrymandered theft.
India lost control of what is now Pakistan.
Youre arguments are based on wishful thinking untested laws unwritten laws gentlemens agreements and good faith.
At the end of the day we will get exactly what we negociate for on the day and we had better be united and in a position of strength.
88

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:19:50
89

Disaster areas?? how so?? didnt everybody involved including the Government make a profit then??

89

Alan B,

18/05/2008 12:21:35
#Foulkes Off the CyberNat

"Fairfax and Grant are trying to be too clever too urbanite and trying too hard to look knowledgable"

wrong, i am just putting of starting working :)

My arguments are based more on my understanding of economics.

I am not lawyer and u are correct my views on how we share out assets are based on u would split them along populations lines basically. Within things like oil based on where it resides. (similar to a coal mine in yorkshire is english or fishing rights etc).

U are right i have no concept of the law here. I do not even tend to involve myself in that type of discussion. I just like arguing for what i see as the merits of independence.



90

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 12:21:47
Indeed, a Scotish gov would have to negociate a percentage of the Bank of England's gold reserves, if it's currency split from the pound. The law of possession would give the Bank of England a strong bargaining position.
91

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 12:22:54
#90 I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. There is no "ready-reckoner" at hand on how to dissolve a country, that is no doubt true. There is however, plenty of precedent, there are well established legal principles and laws on the establishment of new states (eg international law regarding maritime boundaries).

You are right about the position and importance of negotiations, when it comes to the point of break up. But your points about the similarity of oil reserves and gold reserves at the BoE are confused, as #89 points out the position of oil differs from that of other public assets such as gold reserves and government capital. Sure, it is all up for negotiation, but this is likely path. Indeed if a neutral abritrar were to rule on the issue - perhaps the UN, maybe the EU or the ICJ in The Hague, then well established and equitable principles would be used.

92

Alan B,

18/05/2008 12:24:44
#The Tin Man

"The UK dosn't have any state oil companies, and when it did, BP, Britoil, and British Gas were disaster areas"

While i agree with privitisation there is no way u can say they were disaster areas. What do u base that on.

The only time i remember bp being in trouble was a long time after privisation when the guy who destroyed railtrack took over. Then the guy browne sorted them out and transformed the company.
93

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 12:26:06
#93

"The law of possession would give the Bank of England a strong bargaining position."

I doubt it, given this is a public UK shared asset currently. When it comes to splitting assets, shared in this manner, the law of possession has no regard for the matter.
94

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 12:26:39
#91 Foulkes

No. BP and Britoil were not profitable. Of course, the revenues for the government still came from taxation of oil production, just as it does today with a privatised BP (which swallowed Britoil). Although I am not sure if BP is that active in the N. Sea any more (they sold the Forties field, for a start).
95

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:29:27
89

The natural resourse belongs to the country based on geographical location. I.E the coal mine Gold mine Silver mine Copper mine Oil field all belong to the nation they reside in.
A company leases the right to exploit that resourse by paying the Government for the right to do so and keeps the profits made from that resourse less tax.
Companies do not own the resoures only the profits gained from it less tax.
96

Alan B,

18/05/2008 12:30:21
#The Tin Man

I do not think england would be that difficult to negotiate with. It is not in their interests. Scottish unionist politicians are more likely to sell scottish interests within the uk.

If scotland walks away with a share of the assets and liabilities based on population say 8.* then england are not going to argue over pennies.

It would be in both countries interest to have a close friendly relationship.
97

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:33:28
97

BP still makes a profit from the Forties field now in full production and worked by Apachecorp. BP runs the refinery the oil comes into and leases the pipelines from the Forties field into Grangemouth.
They pulled out of production in the North Sea not because it wasnt profitable but because they needed to liquidise their assets in order to buy up more profitable assets abroad particularly in Azerbaijan and Alaska. They simply went where the profits were bigger.
98

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:34:56
99

The only precedent we have is Ireland and like I said they lost 6 counties.
Imagine trying to negociate Independence if we had a New Labour party or Tory party in power in both parliaments??
99

Grant,

Scotland 18/05/2008 12:40:24
#101 No, I mean there is an international precedent. What happened in the UK and Ireland in the 1920s, is in no way comparable to today.

Although one aspect is interesting. The then UK Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time of Irish independence (Philip Snowden, or Churchill, I think) waived the requirement of the Irish Free State to take on a proportion of the UK national debt at that time.

I don't know about you, but I can't see the UK doing the same for Scotland, today.
100

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:40:32
101

And further try and compare that with what kind of deal Scotland would get if it had enough SNP MPs in Westminster to swing the balance of power and had full control of the Edinburgh parliament to boot.
101

Alan B,

18/05/2008 12:41:10
#97 The Tin Man

"No. BP and Britoil were not profitable."

Did some googling when u said that. First of all Britoil was the name given to the company when it was privitised in 82. BNOC the name of the nationalised company which included stuff that was not privitised.


"But at the end of the 1970s the BNOC chairman was still to complain that BP had made £1bn profit on the North Sea and paid only £180m in tax. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/aug/16/guardianobituaries.rogercowe

That suggests that u were wrong about BP not making a profit as a nationalised company.
102

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:43:51
102

So what is different?? are our politicians more reliable?? honest?? trustworthy?? Honourable??
The only real difference is Ireland had to fight a war of Independence where as we should get a chance to vote for it without bloodshed but even that isnt guarenteed is it?? What if a majority of SNP MSPs hold a referendum get the mandate to negociate for Independence and Westminster refuses??
103

Alan B,

18/05/2008 12:46:38
#Foulkes Off the CyberNat

As i say i am completely sold on the idea of independence. That is why i will argue the economic case for scotland on these forums.

There used to be a saying that if scots thought with their hearts they would go independent, if they thought with their heads they would remain in the union.

I want to challenge the argument that we would not be better off independent. That is why i take the line i do.

With regards to the splitting of assets. I do not know the legal stuff. I just look at it simply as dividing everything fairly. As such assets and liabilties should be shared out along population lines. With natural resources (yes they are assets too but a different kind) belonging the country where they reside.
104

Alan B,

18/05/2008 12:49:58
#105 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

To some extent that is why i would like to move to fiscal autonomy first. Manage change.

105

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 12:51:05
#104 Alan B

Indeed, I could be wrong, but I am sure that both company's relied on state subsidies for a while. If BP and BG were the serious cash-cows that they are today, I doubt that even Thatcher would have proposed privatisation, but I could be wrong on that, too. Anyway, a National Scotish Oil Co. is pie-in-the-sky.

When you say "It would be in both countries interest to have a close friendly relationship." I don't think anyone would argue with you. The question is, how close?
106

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:51:27
106

The legallity of it may be decided during the negociation stage by mutual agreement and new legal precendent set on the day.
Like I said try and imagine the negociations being conducted between say the Tories and the Tories or Labour and Labour or The Tories and Labour or the SNP and the Tories or the SNP and Labour or the SNP and either the Tories or Labour with the SNP holding the balance of power in Westminster.

Legal precedent can be made on any of those scenarios now which one would benefit Scotland the most??
107

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 12:52:54
107

Oh aye of course get as much control as possible before negociations is always a good idea.
108

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 13:04:16
Grant (102): "I don't know about you, but I can't see the UK doing the same for Scotland, today."

I suspect the opposite, depending on the deal, of course. I would take the view that a clean split, giving Scotland all UK assets currently within Scottish territory, with all other UK assets and territories staying with the UK remnant, would be a sufficient inducement to waive the national debt percentage.
109

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:10:08
#The Tin Man

"When you say "It would be in both countries interest to have a close friendly relationship." I don't think anyone would argue with you. The question is, how close?"

I say that because there is a unionist argument that support for indendence is driven by a dislike of england. Where i think many might get fed up with scotland place in the union, the arguments about independence are really about what is good for scotland.

For me it is not good democratically to be in a situation where scotland voted labour for 17yrs completely rejected the tory party but had to put up with tory rule for these 17yrs.

Democracy should be about choosing ur democratic representatives and chucking them out when the people just that they have failed or there are better options.

It is about having the powers to make decisions that could benefit the country ie having the power to join the euro if seen to be in our benefit.

Scotland has underpeformed within the union and i feel there is a better way. Other small countries give evidence to suggest that we can do better.
110

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:12:29
111

A general rounding off of assets in exchange for a debt free Scotland?? that is certainly a possible starting point for negociations but I think they will have to still get into a lot more detail than that.
What about International assets?? embassies sovereign territories such as military bases and airfields etc??
111

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:15:24
#Foulkes Off the CyberNat

Give them the nuclear weapons but lets keep the code. Give us a strong start in the negotiations :))
112

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 13:17:23
This is the beginning of statements of position for Scotland to take back its own resources that rightly belong to it and to manage those resources for the benefit of ourselves. The UK state will quite rightly want to hold onto as much as possible for as long as possible because they represent the 9needs and interests of 90% of non Scottish population. It is that simple.

The pointless ramblings of those against Scotland having control and access to its own wealth are only from those who somehow think that decades of deception, propaganda and thft from the UK state can somehow be ignored or is unimportant.

No Free thinking person who actually has any belief in democracy can morally argue for the continuation of the treaty of Union which holds its treaty 'partner' with such contempt.

The UK political state had and still has a clear and continued policy to deceive the UK public, principally the Scots, over the value and impact and use of North sea oil revenues.

The sheer scale and criminality of this ongoing deception should not be underestimated. Nobody in their right minds should vote for a political state formed on treaty that blatantly lied and deceived us to this scale and for such long a time.

It was only just recently that Blair stated an independent Scotland would be "more like Albania". Unionists like Blair are a poison in our society, as he knew that this is a bare faced lie planted to deceive.

The worst are the Scots quislings who also knew and know these facts and yet try to lock us into this unequal treaty so that Scotland props up an Anglo political state.

Its a shame that an Englishman like Fairfax trying desperately to justify the Greatness of England when they have been cup in hand for so long. Why cant you just manage your own affairs without a Scottish crutch?

Fairfax and others take the position that lying to our entire country and to the World about Scotlands fiscal position can be somehow discounted. It cant and it mus
113

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 13:17:56
cont.

Fairfax and others take the position that lying to our entire country and to the World about Scotlands fiscal position can be somehow discounted. It cant and it must not. It is a morally bankrupt position and no amount words can undo the years of deception. People like Fairfax are also quislings to the ideals of the treaty union and to what could have been an open, fair and equitable partnership.

We now know that the UK state not only does not care about Scotland it has been working largely against our interests and deceiving us. There is no cure for this malaise except to govern ourselves.
114

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:19:22
114

Aye right enough we could always threaten to sell the code to the highest bidder during the negociation stages. We could also offer to let them keep the unionist MPs for nothing.
115

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 13:20:24
113: "What about International assets?? embassies sovereign territories such as military bases and airfields etc??"

I'm proposing that all UK-assets outside Scottish territory would remain with England, in return for no Scottish share of the UK national debt. I'm assuming that, by the time an independence referendum occurs, the Trident fleet will have vacated Faslane, since England cannot risk its nuclear fleet being located in the territory of a potential enemy.
116

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:20:48
#David MacVicar

Fairfax from what he has posted before is not a unionist. He does not support the continuation of the union.

Personally i find his posting interesting.
117

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 13:24:21
David MacVicar (115): "Its a shame that an Englishman like Fairfax trying desperately to justify the Greatness of England when they have been cup in hand for so long. Why cant you just manage your own affairs without a Scottish crutch?"

England has a trillion pound GDP, approximately: one of the reasons I support Scottish independence is its likely trivial effect on England. However, suppose you were correct, and that Scotland's crucial contribution were revealed: a poor, humiliated England, reduced to penury before the glory of Scotland. Do you honestly believe that would be a good future, for Scotland or England?
118

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:25:29
115

Yer right of course but I put most of the blame on the media rather than the politicians for this deceipt. The media could easily have exposed the lies and corruption decades ago but has allowed itself to be state controlled. We do not have a free press and that has also been part of the great lie which is now more transparent. Politicians are expected to lie and deceive but a so called free press is expected to expose these lies and deceipts and keep the balance by keeping it in check not perpetrate the same lies and deceipts or even ignore them.
119

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:27:38
120

It also has a couple of trillion of personal debt and massive tax burden not to mention the most expensive property market in the world.
Dont fall for your own propaganda.
And lets face it yer GDP figures are based on Government statistics and are party political therefore cannot be reliable.
120

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:29:17
#Foulkes Off the CyberNat

I would say much of the deception is due to scottish unionist politicians rather than england.

Scottish unionists tend to want a union at any price and are therefore willing to hide things that do not support there case.
121

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:31:46
#122 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

England is a rich country. The arguments for independence should be made based on what is good for scotland rather than anything about england.

England would still be a rich country without scotland, there is no argument about that. Yes things were different in the 70s etc. But today the position has changed.

122

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:32:28
123

I dont differenciate between Scottish unionist and English unionist politicians. All are loyal to the Westminster establishment before all else a free press is supposed to be loyal to the facts.
123

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 18/05/2008 13:33:19
Here's a wee article that shows what the Norwegians think. Just imagine - this could be Scotland (and then some).

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/business/article1985422.ece
124

roughrider,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 13:34:52
Scottish Labour reacted with scorn. The party's finance spokesman Iain Gray said: "This is nothing short of political posturing from the SNP and it's a blatant attempt to divert attention away from their statement this week that exposed the party's lack of ideas to take Scotland forward".
This is the sort of response that the people of Scotland have come to expect from the likes of Ian Grey and his party of westmonster servants.
Keep up the good work Grey,your bad mouthing the SNP on such a serious matter shows the contemt which you and your selfseeking selfserving liebour party of sleaze and corruption have for the electorate.
125

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:36:32
#125

Scottish politicians should be loyal to their electrate and their country. The english too.

England tries to get a good deal for their country and i understand that. Scottish unionist politicians do not stand up for scotland.

Since we have had a scottish parliament for the last 9yrs scotland could easily have voted snp. We only won be a small margin. I think we have to look at our own country rather than blaming england for that.

Yes i agree with the media.
126

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:36:42
123

England are just as capable as Scotland to go it alone there is no argument there but initially after Independence England will have to adjust from controlling UK assets and incomes to only controlling its own which means a short to medium term down turn for them which no doubt they will recover from and florish as and Independent nation within Europe.
Scotland on the other hand is going to experiance the exact opposite at the beginning of the changeover. We are going from controlling no assets to controlling all of our own assets and will thus florish from day one. Thats the difference in our outlooks.
127

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:37:34
#roughrider

Saw Ian Gray on the tv defending wendies position and he was a complete joke.

128

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 13:38:03
Foulkes (122): "It also has a couple of trillion of personal debt and massive tax burden not to mention the most expensive property market in the world."

UK personal debt is closer to £1.5 trillion, but it's certainly too large, and I hope we shall see a 30% reduction in property values, at least. I don't see either to be a substantial economic problem. What will Scotland do concerning its own high personal debt?

129

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:39:41
128

Nope I dont believe English politicians work any better for England either they work for their respective parties and the establishment over the concerns of their own constituents.
The so called party rebellions which always amount to nothing when the crunch to vote comes proves that beyond all doubt.
130

roughrider,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 13:40:39
130 Alan B.
Saw him too, squirming and tic,tic,tic,ing like mad .
He looked ridiculous but hilarious at the same time .
lol
131

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:43:06
131

Manage it personal debt much better with control of its own assets than it ever could with control over nothing dont you think??
Scotland can bring in its own legislation controlling credit card and bank loans for a start.
Even with a 30% reduction the UK housing market will still be more expensive than anywhere else in the world and London will remain the most expensive city in the world to live and work in.
132

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:43:26
#129 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

I doubt england will have downturn due to scottish independence. (more likely becuase of the debt levels labour have left).

The bigger issue for them will be will it jepordise their seat at the UN security council. Will it risk G8 membership etc.

But that is really up to them. It is better for us to have an affluent market with which to trade.

"We are going from controlling no assets to controlling all of our own assets and will thus florish from day one."

While i think independence would be economicall advantageous to us. It must be managed carefully and we must be careful with transitions. It will not all be plain sailing.



133

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:49:05
135

I dont doubt it will jepordise their position within the G8 and the UN security council which would be a downturn for them wouldnt it?? wouldnt mean much to us though.
It will not be plain sailing??? At least we will control the rudder the sails the engine and the direction as opposed to being just a member of the crew.
134

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:51:21
131

UK national debt mounts closer to 2.1 trillion at the latest estimate.
135

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:52:19
#Fairfax

"What will Scotland do concerning its own high personal debt?"

Much of the personal debt is due the housing. Scotland should move to a more sustainable housing policy. I really do not understand the view that 20% inflation in house prices is good.

The problem for england is that with most of the jobs in the south, it attracts people to move down there. There simply is not the supply of housing. This is made much worse by immigration. England is a densely populated country.

In scotland it is much easier to have a good supply of housing (there is much more space). although we have had a relatively poor housing stock.

I would control debt levels by enforsing the level of mortgages against salary. (eg 2 times salary etc).




136

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:55:39
#136 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

I do not think leaving the G8 and UN security council would actually have a downturn on english economy (in the short term anyway).

I also believe it would actually not effect there place here anyway.

G8 has italy and canada so why?

It suits the US to have England as an allie on UN security council. If germany and france want to decide to push for a EU membership of security council that would have more of an effect.
137

busbyfh,

18/05/2008 13:55:52
Well we might as well get something while we can.
As soon as the oil and gas starts to run out make no bones about it , WE WILL BE GIVEN OUR INDEPENDANCE - AND IT WILL BE ENGLAND GIVING US THE BUM'S RUSH.
138

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:55:57
138

Of course a successful Independent Scotland comparred to a not so successful England may encourage the immigration Northwards which could be a 2 edge sword.
We will have to watch that one and gain more control over our immigation policies than the present UK policies allow. We simply couldnt handle immigration by the millions.
139

Alan B,

18/05/2008 13:57:49
#Foulkes Off the CyberNat

"At least we will control the rudder the sails the engine and the direction as opposed to being just a member of the crew."

Agree as it will give us the tools to succeed.

Whether we do will depend on us and our political leaders.

140

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:58:12
140

They kept us within the union for over 270 years before Oil and gas became and issue must have been something else that encouraged them to hang on.
141

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:58:51
142

As it should be.
142

Alan B,

18/05/2008 14:01:22
#141 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

Immigration to scotland from england probably would happen to a bigger degree if scotland could transform it economic performance.

It is more likely to happen in the north of england. People in newcastle would consider it if the job opportunities were better there.

143

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 14:04:08
121 - There is cause and effect. The Government held all the cards and still does. The continued distortion over identifiable verses non-identifiable spending (and how both are calculated) is a good example.
144

Alan B,

18/05/2008 14:07:16
#Foulkes Off the CyberNat

"They kept us within the union for over 270 years before Oil and gas became and issue must have been something else that encouraged them to hang on."

Different reasons at different periods in history.

Britain whole colonial system was about controlling much of the world. This fell apart after the 2nd world war partly as the US pressurised the uk not to hold people against there will.

So much of the time i think it was due to a imperialist mentality.

Before that was to probably stop wars and defend england. ie all the religious stuff.

Post 2nd world war i think aswell as colonial mentality still there i think it had a lot to do with security. Would scotland go communist/socialist?

Seemingly from what i remember britain offered northern ireland back to the republic if they were to join nato and give up neutrality.

It also suited england for defence and nuclear bomb locations.

145

Alan B,

18/05/2008 14:11:32
#147 cont..

Also remember true democracy only really happened post world wars, with universal educations system, modern communications, voting age and granting woment the vote
146

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 14:15:25
As scotland has managed to unemploy 10,000 males since the SNP came to power last may, will England still be expected to pay the social security cost's if a UK asset of oil and gas revenue is gifted to the scots?
147

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 14:20:11
120 Fairfax, Apologies for calling you a unionist.

I did not say England is or would be poor nor would I wish it. Why would Scotland want any poor neighbours?

My argument was that Scottish and English unionists created a long running deception about Scotlands wealth all the while knowing that Scotland was a net contributor to the UK while officially stating the reverse.

If we look back now and see how everything unfolded and how the economy of the South was restored using revenues and international loans secured in part with low interest rates from Oil and gas, the sheer scale of the deception becomes clear.

The deception imo is four fold:
Lie about our wealth to keep us in the union.
Make us look that we are continually supported by the South - a blatant lie.
Revenues were essentially used to regenerate the infrastructure and economy of the South, the result is there for all to see.
The industrial North was dismantled for a mix of reasons, including viable industies steel and fishing - dismantled or sold off. They now say Scotland is a one trick pony with few diverse industries, too dependant on oil. A situation the unionists themselves created!

148

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 14:24:44
149 The Answer

Giving back something that does not belong to you is not much of a gift, more of contrition but without the remorse.
149

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 14:25:21
Foulkes (136): "I dont doubt it will jepordise their position within the G8 and the UN security council which would be a downturn for them wouldnt it??"

It's hard to say -- they're probably irrelevant to the vast majority of the English population. England has a GDP sufficient for the G8 on its own -- but what, if any, practical purpose is satisfied by the G8? The Security Council seat was not vacated by Russia, following the fall of the USSR and much greater decline. However, (i) it's only a matter of time before further expansion of the permanent membership, and (ii) what advantage does this bring in practice?
150

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 14:33:41
David MacVicar (150): "how the economy of the South was restored using revenues and international loans secured in part with low interest rates from Oil and gas, the sheer scale of the deception becomes clear."

What low interest rates? Generally, Britain's rates have been on the high side: this is one criticism made of Sterling, by Alan B above, for example. Further, the wealth of the South is based on the private sector, not the public: all that was required was deregulation and the end of the punitive pre-1979 tax system. Now I agree that oil wealth, particularly in the 1979--1985 period, was partly used to fund those tax reductions, but that had a positive effect on the entire UK, not merely the South.
151

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 14:41:46
#151
If there was the slightest chance scotland would get the oil and gas, salmond would of been doing the rounds of scot loving nations around the world.

I think he is the most stupid man in scotland, last week he had the chance to hold an election on independence, if it had gone ahead and he won it, salmond would of been sitting around the table dividing UK assets with darling, brown and browne,three fellow scots!
In future salmond is going to sit at a table full or tory English MP's. Game set and match to England I would say.
152

Alan B,

18/05/2008 14:49:45
#The Answer

Cannot understand where u are coming from.

Why would he rush to hold a referendum?

He needs to build support for scottish independence that is not going to happen overnight.

There is a big risk if u rush in and lose then even all the momentum towards more powers for the sp is lost.

Personally i think the snp would have been better focussing on getting fiscal autonomy first. But that is a dry argument for most. Swinney did that and that is why salmond has the popular touch.
153

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 14:56:48
#155

Well if it was true that 500 million quid a day is going south to bail out the English, and election held now , would cost the English a shed load of cash.

500 million a day, 180 billion a year, 2 years to build up support at a cost of 360 billion, interesting to know he has scots first and foremost in his mind.
154

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 14:58:27
153
Fairfax.

I was speaking about the UK credit rating internationally AA / AAA to get low loans for borrowing.
155

Alan B,

18/05/2008 15:03:44
#156 where do u get 500 million a day from.

156

Alan B,

18/05/2008 15:04:13
#156 what position do u support?
157

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:22:49
152

Russia is in a far more prominant and politically influencial position than England would ever be outside of the UK. I think we can safely assume the constituent parts of the UK wont hold a seat within the security council nor the G8.
Not a guarantee of course politics is a funny animal and there is no precedent to our situation as yet.
158

Alan B,

18/05/2008 15:27:52
#160

With canada, italy both members of the G8 why would england even if totally independent (ie minus wales and ni) not be part of G8.

France would population wise is also a member and is likely to be similar to England.


The UN security council is a different matter. Germany and Japan were both excluded as the were on the wrong side in the ww. This is much more open for reform. But again france is there. The US would most likely support english membership of the security council.

I think membership is most likely threatened by EU seat than anything else.


159

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 15:30:57
160

get real, scotland is 8% of the UK, England will keep it's seat at the G8, Security council etc, it will also gain the eu seats used by scots meps at this moment.
160

brownlie,

18/05/2008 15:31:30
154 The Answer

It is precisely because we do regard Salmond as the most stupid man in Scotland that us unionists are so highly regarded by the Scottish electorate.
161

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:34:09
161

The criteria for being a member of the G8 is more financial than political the criteria for being a member of the security council is purely political and is based on international political influence and not a little corruption.
162

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 15:34:36
The Answer.

If you are the answer, then: 'How to post nonsensical rubbish backed by wild assertions?' must have been the question.

500 million a day?

Three fellow Scots? Broon hates Salmond and Salmond and Blair hated each other, Blair and Broon etc are Brits 1st and last.

If someone holds a diametrically opposite political belief in a constitutional matter than it does not matter what country of Birth is, especially when those persons think the country is only region.

One side is arguing for a Scottish political state and country (this side has English and Scottish proponents), the other is arguing for a British state with Scottish and English etc regions (this side also has English and Scottish proponents).

It doesnt matter who is in government it matters what side of the debate they are on.

In the SNP yellow and Green corner:
The SNP have set policy on a referendum, set a date, published it, were elected, promised a full term in government for the public to judge their capacity to govern and deliver, started an ongoing debate for ALL on the impacts of different approaches to our constitutional setup - backed by the greens.

Plan - Action - Consistency - Delivery. AKA Scottish democracy in action.

In the red, yellow and blue corner:
Set out a policy that no referendum is needed or wanted, none were elected, promised to vote against any referendum plans and refused to take part in any 'conversation', suddenly thought a debate on devolution as important, started one but refused to debate independence and refused that the SNP or Greens could join, passed control to the UK political state (*). One element in the face of political collapse, panics, calls for an immediate referendum, despite their party facing bankruptcy, calls it a tactic and that the SNP are yellow.

No Plan - Reaction - Bias - external political control - U-turn - No delivery. aka British democracy in action.

(*) It is possible that the commission and therefore th
163

Alan B,

18/05/2008 15:37:59
#164

So as i said why would the rest of the uk not be a member of the G8. It would be bigger financially than canada and italy. Would probably be roughly the same as france.

Plus the fact who cares about the G8 anyway it is largely past its sell by date now anyway. It was a capitalist club against the USSR.

It is now just a talking shop. It would not really be missed if it disappeared. WTO etc are more important.

164

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 15:43:17
#164 Foulkes

Not that it matters, but I thought that membership of the UN security council was based on having a substantial collection of atomic weapons, with the aim of preventing a disaster if one of the members got all hot and bothered about something.
165

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 15:43:56
161

The words of MR salmond

As regards Britain's place in the world if the United Kingdom was shorn of Scotland, Mr Salmond said that he thought that our permanent seat on the UN Security Council would probably be maintained but added he didn't think that ordinary people cared much about that issue.

And in the councils of the European Union, he believed that the Scotland-less UK would retain its voting rights but, in addition, would have an independent Scotland voting with it on most issues.

As regards Britain's place in the world if the United Kingdom was shorn of Scotland, Mr Salmond said that he thought that our permanent seat on the UN Security Council would probably be maintained but added he didn't think that ordinary people cared much about that issue.

And in the councils of the European Union, he believed that the Scotland-less UK would retain its voting rights but, in addition, would have an independent Scotland voting with it on most issues.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1548946/The-English-should-be-our-best-pals%2C-says-Salmond.html

166

Alan B,

18/05/2008 15:49:10
#The Tin Man

There are 5 permanent members of the security council.

US, France, UK, Russia (was USSR) and China.

It was created at the end of ww2. The same time the UN was created.

It was the major winners in WW2 plus china.
167

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 15:49:30
Wanted to say

(*) It is possible that the commission and therefore the UK is in breach of the Council of Europe's rules of political expression of minority peoples and cultures to which the UK has ratified.

- Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/157.htm

"The Parties undertake to adopt, where necessary, adequate measures in order to promote, in all areas of economic, social, political and cultural life, full and effective equality between persons belonging to a national minority and those belonging to the majority. In this respect, they shall take due account of the specific conditions of the persons belonging to national minorities."

A good question for Eeddie.
168

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 15:53:56
170
Why dont you or the SNP get the lawyers onboard, I'm sure you will get legal aid!
169

Alan B,

18/05/2008 15:54:50
#170 explain why u think this has been failed.
170

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 15:57:07
#168 The Answer

Interesting link. I would disagree with Salmond saying that independence was the only answer to the West Lothian question, though. I think that Scottish MPs would loose their right to vote on English, Welsh & N Irish matters pretty quickly after a Conservative government was formed. The currrent situation only exists because it very handy for the Labour party.
171

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 16:00:02
#169 Alan B

I though China was voted-in during the 1970's?
172

Alan B,

18/05/2008 16:02:00
#The Tin Man

I would agree that independence is not the only answer to the west lothian question. It just may be the best.

Realistically for scottish mps to lose there right to vote on english matters, would take alot of tidying up of the devolution settlement.

Much of it is in a mess, with bits of powers here and bits there.

Also the financial settlement would have to be changed ie barnett.

Dev max together with fiscal autonomy would be the easier way to begin sorting out the west lothian question.

It is also complicated by having different powers for wales and ni.

173

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:02:02
173

Hardly democratic though is it and goes against the principle of the act of union.
As long as Westminster controls any function of Scotland then Scottish MPs must have the same rights to vote within Westminster as other MPs.
Only when the Scottish Parliament takes back all of its responsiblities does the act of union dissolve and Scottish MPs no longer have any rights of influence within Westminster.
The West Lothian question is actually answered within the act of union.
174

Alan B,

18/05/2008 16:03:31
#The Tin Man

u could be right. i just know the 5 permanent members and that the un was created at the end of ww2.

just assumed the permanent members were from then.

i will check thanks for the correction.
175

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 16:04:37
168
More powers to hollyrood will not come cheap, top of the list will be less scots at westminister as a minimum price.
For me , the sooner there are no scots at westminister the better.

176

Alan B,

18/05/2008 16:06:57
#The Tin Man

This is the first link i found when i googled.

"The Republic of China (ROC) was one of the founding members of the United Nations and a permanent member of the Security Council from its creation in 1945."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations
177

Alan B,

18/05/2008 16:10:25
#The Tin Man


Just read the rest of the link and there is more to it than the quote i posted.
178

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 16:13:01
#176 Foulkes

I think you are over-reacting a bit, there. If MP's can't vote on a by-pass around Methil, why should the predominantly Labour Scottish MP's get to vote on a by-pass around Chelmsford?

It is a mess, and needs to be sorted-out. Remember that devolution, as it stands today, was instigated to suit the Labour party, although it back-fired on them.
179

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 16:29:51
#170 explain why u think this has been failed.

The key words are: promote, in all areas of poliitical life....hall take due account etc.

The UK run Calman commission
a) Refuses to acknowledge the view 'take due account of' a large minority of Scottish political opinion and its elected government.
b) excluded the SNP and the greens from the process.

Why do think its not in breach?
180

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 16:33:59
#180 Alan B

Thanks.

181

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 16:34:03
170. I should say do you think its not in breach and if so why not?
182

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:47:15
181

Because the act of union doesnt allow for a seperate parliament outside of Westminster but its very clear as to what should happen inside the Westminster parliament.
I kept telling folk that devolution was a joke and this is one of the reasons why.
183

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:51:02
178

Westminster will give the bare minimum of powers to Edinburgh it can get away with in order to stiffle the push for Independence that is something these so called devolutionalists should remember.
And devolutionalist max's or midi's will have to fight very hard to get anymore powers within the union.
It yer a devolutionalist min or a status quo kind o guy then this government is for you.
184

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 17:10:45
187

I want scotland out of the union fullstop, it's time the nat's realized there chickens are going to come home to roost, independence for scotland also means independence for England.

185

Fairfax,

18/05/2008 17:40:54
David MacVicar (170): "It is possible that the commission and therefore the UK is in breach of the Council of Europe's rules of political expression of minority peoples and cultures to which the UK has ratified."

It is possible. It's also possible that the Council of Europe routinely generates well-intentioned wish-lists that are too non-specific to functions as law, and is any case, a toothless bureaucracy. Have you read your link in full? For example, Article 10 includes the following:

"In areas inhabited by persons belonging to national minorities traditionally or in substantial numbers, if those persons so request and where such a request corresponds to a real need, the Parties shall endeavour to ensure, as far as possible, the conditions which would make it possible to use the minority language in relations between those persons and the administrative authorities."

I therefore suspect that Scotland is in breach of this, since it does not ensure that Scots vocabulary is omitted when communicating with the 10% of Scotland comprising English people. It's terrible: someone said "outwith" to me yesterday in Strontian, despite my being English -- I could feel my rights being breached . . .
186

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 18/05/2008 18:34:45
This has been a good debate and one of the very few I have scrolled through and read most of. The absence of trolls in particular the vile one has been most welcome. And then we get to #149 and it starts slinging around the rhetoric, troll HQ must have been on the phone.

115. David. An excellent point and well made. People on the outside looking in are bemused by the attitude of the unionist camp and the words of Cameron and Brown who will do, "all in their power to save the union," given that they are both potentialy Prime Ministers when UDI is declared that power also includes the use of force and not for the first time.

Apart from the oil, which we now know will be of enormous benefit, see here: http://tinyurl.com/6dha2o
the problem has always and will always be, that bred into the DNA of Englands establishment and a fair number of it's populace is the instinct that England rules Scotland and actually owns it.

You do not have to look very hard to find that attitude amongst the English chattering classes. Hence some of the sneering sarcastic insults frequently directed over the border and usually said from the safety of England.

If in doubt please look at the remarks in the Daily Telegraph on line whenever this subject comes up.

It has come as a tremendous shock to the snobby elite of this so called UK that we here in Scotland are soon to tell the UK to go and take a running jump.


IT IS TIME.

YES WE CAN.

ALBA GU BRATH.
187

David MacVicar,

web 18/05/2008 19:20:42
189 Fairfax.

Very droll. I do agree that the general vagueness of the treaty limits its ability to actually do anything. The so called commission could be a good test case but I guess that the commission is a busted flush and a complete waste of taxpayers money now anyway.
188

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 19:31:42
# 190

Nothing troll about 10,000 extra scots males becoming unemployed since the SNP took power, but as usual westminister picks up the tab and will get the blame!

But what is the SNP going to do? 10,000 males unemployed in one year of a snp executive is bad.
189

livilion,

livingston 18/05/2008 20:01:41
192 The Answer
Press Release
14 May 2008
May labour market statistics for Scotland

Office for National Statistics (ONS) data released today reports an increase in employment and a fall in unemployment levels.

Commenting on the ONS figures, Scotland Office minister David Cairns said:

"These latest figures are very encouraging. In difficult global economic conditions, a quarterly rise in employment levels and a quarterly fall in unemployment levels are testament to the Government’s consistently responsible macroeconomic policies.

“The strength of the Scottish labour market over recent months and years reflects the fact that we have made economic stability a priority; and today’s publication of the draft Legislative Programme will build on that with measures to promote financial stability, growth and economic resilience across the United Kingdom.”

Total employment in Scotland rose by 5,000 over the previous quarter to stand at 2,537,000. The Scottish employment rate is unchanged on the previous quarter at 76.5 per cent, which continues to be above that of the UK and almost all countries within the EU.

Employment
The Labour Force Survey (LFS) indicates that the number of people in employment in Scotland in January - March 2008 was 2,537,000. Employment was 5,000 higher compared with the previous three months and down 1,000 compared to the same period last year. The employment rate amongst those of working age was unchanged over the quarter and down 0.2 p.p. over the year, to 76.5 per cent. In international terms, the Scottish employment rate remains above the UK average and the corresponding rate for the majority of other EU countries.

Unemployment
ILO unemployment in Scotland was down 6,000 over the quarter January - March 2008 to 124,000. The level was down 7,000 compared to the same quarter last year. The unemployment rate was down 0.2 p.p. from the previous quarter to 4.7% per cent, which is down 0.3 p.p. over the year.

http://www.sc
190

livilion,

livingston 18/05/2008 20:05:03
192 The Answer
David Cairns MP does not appear to share your views.
191

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 20:15:03
193 + 194

Just read the Labour Market Report for May (page 34)

The facts are there to see.


466,000 more people in England are in employment than a year ago!

-1000 less people in scotsland are in employment than a year ago!

234,000 more males in England are in employment than a year ago!

-10,000 less males in scotsland are in employment than a year ago!

13,486,000 males in England are in employment!
only
1,327,000 males in scotsland are in employment!

5.78 million is the size of the public sector UK wide

4.8 million public sector workers England

yet a massive

586,000 public sector workers in scotsland

compaired to only

486,000 in Yorkshire and The Humber (which has a larger population than scotsland )


Labour Market May 2008
tinyurl.com/6blszk
192

,

18/05/2008 20:56:40
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Reason:
193

,

18/05/2008 21:05:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
194

,

18/05/2008 21:06:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
195

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 21:16:07
198

hmmmm,

I think your that guy with sore knees and a passion for beans!
196

roughrider,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 21:28:02
192 The Answer,Glasgow 18/05/2008 19:31:42
You come across as a typical labour Troll.
Your mob have had 300 hundred years to get it right
and the best liebour can offer is a selfseeking lying ,law breaking , westmonster crawler like Ubendy.

As for am2 ,HA,HA.
197

,

18/05/2008 21:28:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
198

The Answer,

Glasgow 18/05/2008 21:35:20
200

I cant wait untill the burden of scotland is offloaded from the backs of the English, 10,000 unemployed in the last year under the SNP executive, what about the so called feel good factor!
199

,

18/05/2008 21:36:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
200

Eve,

Scotland bonnie Scotland 18/05/2008 21:59:41
Iain Gray must be confused, he appears to be discribing the Labour party.

Keep up the good work John Sweeny!

AM2 greater than, less than: Why do some folk like you compare things that are differnt in every level as they should be in preoportion with each other.

Scotlands a Country and takes up 1/3 of the main land iland. It can be compared with an area for England which is NOT only part of England BUT also a smaller land surface which just happens to more populated.

Land size comes in to it you know.

Any way I'm tierd and busy so wish every one sweet dreams of Scottish indepndence.
201

Eve,

18/05/2008 22:02:04
Opps sorry Just realise that it's less than greater than. my sequencing must be bad the night.

< Less than symple
> Greater than symble.
202

Sanny,

Glasgow 19/05/2008 14:29:16
202 The Answer:

Well well now! So you see Scotland as a burden. No doubt it is a burden that Westminster is prepared to shoulder until they have completed the rape of Scotland’s resources.

The Value of Scotland’s oil will continue to rise as will the price of oil throughout the world. The latest news is that Saudi has now past peak production, as have many of the ME fields. I believe Mr. Bush has taken pleasure in telling them so. Scotland has past peak production in the reserves currently being exploited; however there are some fields not yet tapped for various reasons, but mainly cost and tax make them poor investments.

The increasing Oil price and a sensible tax policy will make many of our resources viable and encourage further exploration. There is still a great deal of wealth to be extracted form the North Sea.

If only the “Labour till I die” idiots of my native city would engage their brain and realise this Alexander/Brown Party have nothing to do with Socialism and have abandoned all the principles of the once proud Labour Party that served the working man!! Incidentally “Home Rule” for Scotland was a founding principle of the Scottish Socialists that created the Labour Party.
203

Hickory,

US 19/05/2008 15:31:40
Well now. We 'ave here an explosive mix. A pile of cash an' the flyin' monks. Whot Ya mean I canno 'ave it? I lost me laptop Ya know an' I need annother.
204

Chris42,

19/05/2008 17:30:50
Alan B
I enjoy your posts but I'm curious to know how why you would imagine 'fiscal autonomy'under devolution, do you realistaically envisage a UK govt agreeing to Scotland receiving the oil revenues?
205

Endangeredscot,

19/05/2008 17:46:47
207

Whit?
206

Hickory,

US 19/05/2008 18:56:11
209

'ave Ye seen me laptop? It's just like the one me
wife 'as. We get 'em free Ya know. The oil money
could buy the nice'ns.
207

Nikostratos,

19/05/2008 21:40:28
SNP prepares for battle over North Sea cash



Handbags at dawn Eh! girls...........


Alex is a pacifist Dave Cameron certainly ain't best of luck..

 

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