Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Kirk wants extra powers for Holyrood to increase taxes and give cash to poor

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 14 December 2008
THE Kirk is backing moves to hand more financial powers to the Scottish Parliament so that MSPs can vote to raise taxes and give more cash to the poor.
Senior figures in the Church of Scotland say they support moves to increase direct taxes and argue that giving Holyrood powers over all financial matters would be the best way to bring this about.

They claim that Scotland places a higher priority
on redistribution than elsewhere in the UK, and suggest that Holyrood should be able to act on that.

In evidence to the Calman Commission, which is studying possible reforms to the Scottish Parliament, the Rev Ian Galloway, convener of the Church and Society Council, said: "Only an increased fiscal authority would give the Parliament the capacity to reflect that in its policies."

The evidence stated: "We believe that a substantial move towards fiscal autonomy would better enable the Scottish Parliament and Government to respond to Scottish concerns and give effect to distinctive priorities.

"If a Scottish Government were elected on a commitment to redistribute wealth, more levers should be available than the current power to vary income tax.

"Further, if the Scottish Parliament wished to target benefits in new ways, it should have that power. This would also ensure a greater degree of fiscal accountability and responsibility."

In its evidence, the Kirk confirmed it would like to shift more weight on to direct taxes – such as income tax and National Insurance – and away from indirect taxes such as VAT.

Galloway added: "We are clear that, as a matter of principle, we would hope that the balance of taxation could veer more towards the direct rather than the indirect because that is coupled with social justice outcomes."

The Kirk also claims that the current welfare reform programme will not work as well in Scotland as it does in England.

Last week, the UK Government announced plans to compel benefit claimants to look for work or face having their benefits cut.

Deputy leader of the Scottish Tories, Murdo Fraser – who is a member of the Kirk – criticised the hierarchy's position last night.

He said: "I suspect that the Church hierarchy are out of touch with the opinions of the grassroots membership.

"I suspect that there are not that many Church members who want Scotland to become the highest-taxed part of the United Kingdom with all the implications that would have for the future growth of the Scottish economy."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 13 December 2008 9:36 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 13/12/2008 23:03:59
This thread ought to be interesting. When religious leaders make comments which don't match the SNP's agenda, the “CyberNat hordes” tend to be scathing and tell them to butt out of politics. Now let's see if they're consistent!
2

Lurking from home,

13/12/2008 23:35:05
It's pretty despicable that the Calman Commission can collect evidence from everyone except the payrolled civil servants directed by the Scottish Toon Cooncil (head honcho A Salmond).

Having said that, religion and politics are as compatible as oil and water.

Which is why, presumably, Tone didn't find the Church of Rome until he was out of office.

3

Professor-Quincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,

13/12/2008 23:50:31
"THE Kirk is backing moves to hand more financial powers to the Scottish Parliament so that MSPs can vote to raise taxes and give more cash to the poor."

YEAH RIGHT!

How naive can you get. Taxes may go up, but they are a tad naive if they think that any of the cash would go to the poor.

The money would be spent on more pressing things like Salmonds trip to the Ryder cup, or his trip this weekend to Catalonia to investigate internet domain names.

4

Conan the Librarian™,

14/12/2008 00:17:58
So you agree there are a "horde" of cybernat posters.

Unlike yourself and the borderline psychotic who posts under many monikers.
5

Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org,

http://www.oilofscotland.org 14/12/2008 00:23:40
SKINT SCOTS STRIKE OIL - "Scotland The Only Country in the World to Strike Oil and Get Poorer"

North Sea Oil is the Largest Industry in the U.K. Scotland Produces more oil than Kuwait?

Scotland would make about 12 Billion per year 14.4 Billion in 2008.

At 12 Billion that is an additional £2300 per man woman and child that resides in Scotland.

Currently the Scots get 0 revenue from North Sea Oil.

For more information http://www.oilofscotland.org

or

If you are support the Scottish Labour Party and disagree with the Kirk's announcement or want to say
the oil prices have recently dropped! but for how long?

http://www.scottish-labour-party.co.uk


6

Conan the Librarian™,

14/12/2008 00:24:33
3
Leave Marx alone eh?

Go back to MAD, that was almost funny.
7

Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org,

http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf 14/12/2008 00:32:04
The Kirk has always been the voice of reason and fairness in Scotland and do its best to look after the welfare of its people.

This pressure is welcomed.

However as the Scottish Parliament is GIVEN NO OIL REVENUES and is already given about a billion less per year than what is documented in the GERS report.

The Kirk should direct should direct some of this pressure South of the Border to people who are holding Scotland's Real Wealth !

A Wealth that has been acknowledged in this document on the Scottish Economy that Westminster has KEPT TOP SECRET from THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE for over 30 years

http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf
8

Paddi,

14/12/2008 00:47:19
There's few people using the Kirk under the age of 80, they neither represent the people nor are entrusted by the people to speak up for them. If they want to do something about the poor then they have millions uopn millions, distribute some of that.
9

whomthegodswishtodestroytheyfirstmakemad,

14/12/2008 01:03:56
The Kirk is a joke,they dont believe anything in the book which gives them supposed authority. Why should we listen to you answer me THAT ?
10

Jimbo2,

14/12/2008 01:37:19
These pedlar's of superstition should keep their opinions to themselves, they have no place in politics. The church's meddling in politics has caused the deaths of countless millions, right up to the present day.

Next thing you know they'll be baying for an upper chamber at Holyrood and demanding that they be given the right to have representation there.

They should stick to doing what they do best, giving hope and succour to the weak minded Blairs & co of this world, convincing them that they will some kind of afterlife if they adhere to their chosen church's sectarian ways.

Talking of weak minded; There's someone who calls him/herself ProUnionist who's put a propaganda video on You Tube.

tinyurl.com/5e6cuc

According to one poster, he/she likes to censor or remove comments from those of and independence bent.
11

,

14/12/2008 01:56:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

FrancesP,

14/12/2008 02:49:00
1. AM2, what is the point of your obsessively detailed analysis - also seen on your blog - of every tiny facet of the 'CyberNat' mentality? Your implicit proposition seems to be that "CyberNats are discourteous and contradict themselves - therefore the SNP is a very bad thing and the Union is a very good thing". That seems to me also to be a very obvious logical fallacy.

There are a lot of rude, boorish and inconsistent Unionist posters around, in case you hadn't noticed - so if it's just these character traits that bother you and not the political affiliation of the individuals concerned, why not be a bit more even-handed in your critique?
13

subrosa,

14/12/2008 04:28:06
# 12

I think he's got a 'insult the SNP' compulsive disorder - definitely some form of obsession with nationalists.
14

Nevsky,

Moscow 14/12/2008 05:12:14
12 Francis#

AM2 and 'detailed analysis' are words you will very rarely find used together.

He is an ulster orangeman who is also a used car salesman!

Hardly a success in life really! So whatever he has to comment on...take it with a large pinch of ornage/ulster salt!
15

Nevsky,

Moscow 14/12/2008 05:17:15
Bit of a blow for the Unionists with God coming out in favour of independence!

16

,

14/12/2008 05:25:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

donald,

glasgow 14/12/2008 07:38:15
"THE Kirk is backing moves to hand more financial powers to the Scottish Parliament so that MSPs can vote to raise taxes and give more cash to the poor."

Labour would never allow it. Religion is just for football fans to keep us divided.
18

Rodster,

Glasgow 14/12/2008 08:31:01
On the economic front can one of you Unionist Labour mob answer this for me ?
If Traitor Brown is such a financial genius and the entire world is copying his ideas on saving the world ,
why is the £ collapsing amongst all the other currencies if he is so wonderful and so right??
19

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 14/12/2008 08:35:15
The Kirk should stick to religion.
20

beckypumps1,

Fife 14/12/2008 08:49:53
21 said The Kirk should stick to religion. Well said.
21

Wardog™,

14/12/2008 08:58:00
1 AM2, Scotland,UK 13/12/2008 23:03:59

"..When religious leaders make comments which don't match the SNP's agenda,....."

Can you detail further or are you purposely trying to cover your unionist tracks
22

The Tin Man,

14/12/2008 09:19:35
SNP increasing taxes and giving cash to poor?

hahahahahahahaha.

Wrong political party for that idea - fiscal policies to the right of the Conservatives.
23

,

14/12/2008 09:21:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

GB's Dairy,

14/12/2008 09:28:47
AM2

As a "son of the manse" I've got to ask you who is going to run the communal contry-wide soup-kitchens if not the Kirk? D'ye no ken that a famine, possibly even a plague of boils or locusts, is going to hit the North of Britain?

I find your contributions, unintentionally, entertaining and amusing and often wonder how an ostensibly intelligent individual could post such absolute and blinkered tripe.
25

The Tin Man,

14/12/2008 09:33:47
#26 GB

Computers process data as a series of binary numbers.

Owls have large eyes in order to assist their night-vision.
26

GB's Dairy,

14/12/2008 09:39:16
I will have no truck with this nonsense of "giving cash to the poor" unless it's for poor top executives of banks to carry off to their tax havens!!
27

GB's Dairy,

14/12/2008 09:40:38
27 The Tin man

Your most intelligent and relevant posting ever..
28

The Tin Man,

14/12/2008 09:43:10
#26 GB

Thank you.

Personnally, I believe that your posting #26 was the most relevent, intellegent, level-headed, unbiased comment I have ever read.
29

TWC,

14/12/2008 09:43:24
The question is should Scotland control its own Finances -- the answer is YES and if that requires Independence -- Fine that's what we'll do.

The church still matters to me, and I hope that other churches etc will also make their opinion known.

Today newspapers & television are guiding the unthinking voters so anybody who can make peole think before they vote is welcome.

Scotland needs different policies or we'l have another 50 years of downward spiral.

Merry Christmas
30

GB's Dairy,

14/12/2008 09:45:39
30 The Tin Man

If you meant "relevant" and "intelligent" you are probably quite correct!
31

The Tin Man,

14/12/2008 09:49:52
#32 GB

Unfortunately, they didnt do speling good at the borstal.
32

Wardog™,

14/12/2008 09:59:57


OMG - I just looked out the window and the sky does indeed seem to be falling in........

Has anyone received their £5000 tax bill from the SNP?

I hear Labour are preparing one for every one come 2010/11.

Neatly after a general election.....


33

Wardog™,

14/12/2008 10:12:00
24. Tinman

Freezing Council Tax
Introducing a Local Income Tax System based on ABILITY TO PAY
Local Government Agreement giving Greater Accountability
Forth & TA Bridge Tolls Scrapped
Making a decision on the New Forth Road Bridge
More Police on the Street
Record Funds to cap Public Transport Fare
Carbon Index on Future Budgets
New Drugs Rehabilitation Bill
Cutting Small Business Rates
New Money for Community Climate Challenge Fund
Extra Captial Spending for Edinburgh
New Health Screening Programmes
Phasing out prescription charges
Reducing hospital waiting times
Tackling Poverty Fund of £145m.
Dealing with Alcohol Misuse with tough new measures
Dealing with Smoking, Obesity & Heath in Scotland's Young
Promoting Europe's Largest Wind Farms & New Hydrogen Plant
Giving the go-ahead for Scotland first commercial Tidal project.
Increasing Energy Efficiency Funds
Reduced class sizes in Early Years
50% more nursery places for 3-4 Year Olds
Extending Free School Meals Pilot
Universities and Colleges Investment of £1.7bn
New Partnerhsip between Universities & Government
Grant Support for Students of £509m.
Scrapping the Endowment Fee
Improved Rail Links, Giving the Go Ahead for the Borders Railway
Dualling Sections of the A9
Increasing Social Housing through HomeSTAKE
Control over Fisheries Conservation Measures
Supporting the Scottish Fishing Industry with Action Plan & Funding
Extending NHS Screening Programs for Men
Setting up the Scottish Futures Trust
Reducing Classes for P1-2 to 18
Introducing PiP's, saving Buyers £7M annually
Reforming Health Boards
Introducing tighter Smoking Advertisement Rules
Introducing new Baccalaureate Qualification
Mandatory Jail terms for carrying a Knife


The SNP is not a party that has come from the left. It doesn't have the same folk memory of industrial politics. But somehow it has managed to promote a political agenda closer to the social democratic soul of Scotland than the party of the ne
34

Wardog™,

14/12/2008 10:12:33
cont.

The SNP is not a party that has come from the left. It doesn't have the same folk memory of industrial politics. But somehow it has managed to promote a political agenda closer to the social democratic soul of Scotland than the party of the new plutocracy that calls itself Labour. Thatcherite it ain't.
35

jdships,

Edinburgh 14/12/2008 10:12:54
7 Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org

"The Kirk has always been the voice of reason and fairness in Scotland and do its best to look after the welfare of its people. "

Are you saying this tongue in cheek or has your education on Scottish history been sadly negelected ?
Religion with its " There is only one God but my God's better than yours " attitude down the years has caused more wars and strife than any other faction.
How can they claim to represent the people of Scotland from their position in society ?
I have no problem with those who are "Kirk minded" just do not want to be represented by the Church of any denomination .


36

Grant,

Scotland 14/12/2008 10:16:36
#34 Are yoiu sure it is just £5,000 Wardog?

What with the UK widely seen as a bankrupt, basket case, "beggar" economy amongst its European and global competitors - a textbook example of how not run an economy, I think it will be much more than that.

The collective banking guarantees, PFI debts etc aren't tacked on to that. I saw an analysis that suggested that the real level of debt is nearer 140% of UK GDP.

After the antics of some during the last election on deficits, subsidies and black hole - with regard to Scotland........

Schadenfraude? Na...not a bit of it :-)
37

Wardog™,

14/12/2008 10:31:12
38. Grant

Indeed..... Labour won't keep up this 'global spin' for much longer as the details of Brown's largesse is revealed and the UK lags behind other economic on their way out of recession.

Watch the pound plummet.

What a bunch of rogues new labour are

38

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/12/2008 10:44:46
1 There is a significant difference between Church leaders pronouncing on matters of ethics and personal morality, and expressing a solicited opinion on social policy.

Those people who would silence the Church just because it is the Church are showing precisely the same kind of intolerance they usually accuse the Church of showing.
39

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 14/12/2008 10:50:50
10 the Church in Scotland not only support redistribution of wealth, they also support a non nuclear agenda, they opposed the invasion of Iraq, and they provide daily support and relief to many people on the margins of society including asylum seekers who would otherwise be left destitute.

I am an atheist myself, but that doesn't mean I see the need to attack the Church whenever they come into view. It is possible to respect what they get right, at the same time as opposing the very many things they get wrong.
40

Wardog™,

14/12/2008 11:09:49
41 Observer.

"...not only support redistribution of wealth, they also support a non nuclear agenda, they opposed the invasion of Iraq, and they provide daily support and relief to many people on the margins of society including asylum seekers who would otherwise be left destitute......"

If only there were a political party that also held these views........ pondering


41

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 14/12/2008 13:27:14
The Church of Scotland, like every other religion in a democratic society, has a perfect right to offer views and opinions to politicians.

However, when it comes to actually governing Scotland, The Kirk, Scottish Catholic Church, and every other religious body, should leave it to the government.

The Kirk forgets that during the Reformation it was only to happy to avariciously grab the assets of its predecessor religion, the Scottish Catholic Church, and afterwards made sure it held on to every bawbee!
At that time, neither The Kirk nor the Scottish Catholic Church were ever great believers in the redistribution of wealth, except back into their
own coffers!
42

The Tin Man,

14/12/2008 14:20:22
#42 Wardog

The SNP's proposal to cut corporation tax by half, to 20%, would be a very serious step toward wealth redistribution. Probably not in the direction you are meaning, though.

By the way, which services would be cut to finance the serious LIT tax-cut? Charity funding is already suffering due to the CT freeze (effectively a tax cut).
43

Wardog™,

14/12/2008 15:12:21

46 Tin Man

Corporation Tax is 21% for the vast majority of businesses.

Don't tell me your an unreconstructed socialist idealist and think that by avoiding letting small businesses grow you redistribute wealth....

A strong economy allows governments to redistribute wealth based on an ability to pay.

Unfortunately Labour over 12 years have abjectly failed to do that.

TWELVE YEARS

LIT is based on an ability to pay.

Maybe you could detail to all those that pay over the odds to keep the rich comfortable in their big houses why they should supplement them.......

I mean really, a socialist party advocating a Tory property tax even although the poorest in our society rent accommodation, still they are advocating that the property they rent is somehow an indication of 'wealth.

Get off your high horse will ye.

Councils are ultimately responsible for how they spend their funds and in agreement with the Scottish Government agreed to freeze council tax.

Rightly so.

By the way, which services would be cut to finance Labour's borrowing?

To date we're looking at a £1BILLION shortfall here in Scotland., with absolutely no redistribution of tax burden to compensate.....

Faux and hypocritical socialism at it's finest.

Labour RIP 1995








44

Rodster,

Glasgow 14/12/2008 15:42:37
#44 David Banks great info David , obviously they do not allow postal votes there or the spooks enough time to "fix " the result
45

Charles1234,

14/12/2008 15:50:47
Some more analysis on local by-elections showing that the swing to the SNP has actually INCREASED since Glenrothes in comparison with 2007 when every commentator was saying the SNP was riding high.

-----------------------

http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/12/14/in-the-sunday-papers-7/#comment-881118

Some interesting comparative Scottish data here.
In the three Scottish council by-elections in 2007* the combined results were:

SNP … 3236 … 35% … +1%
LAB … 1913 … 21% … -3%
CON … 1602 … 17% … -1%
LIB … 1770 … 19% … +3%
OTH … 656 … 7% … 0%

* Those being Midstocket in Aberdeen in August, Helensburgh in Argyll in October and Lochee in Dundee in November.

A 2% swing to the SNP from Labour in what people view as a very good year for the SNP.

Now look at the four last Scottish council by-elections in 2008* which were all held on the night of or since Glenrothes. The combined results were:

SNP … 6360 … 36% … +9%
LAB … 6807 … 38% … -1%
CON … 2001 … 11% … -1%
LIB … 1314 … 7% … 0%
OTH … 1248 … 7% … -8%

* Forth in Edinburgh and Baillieston in Glasgow in November (night of Glenrothes); and Ballochmyle in East Ayrshire and Kilbirnie & Beith in North Ayrshire in December.

A 5% swing from Labour to the SNP.

And as you'll see from the seats the four latest ones are in supposedly core Labour territories whilst the three 2007 ones are in more SNP core territories.

Considering the supposed narrative has been the SNP falling back to a resurgent Labour it seems that analysis may have to be reappraised on the basis of the SNP enjoying a larger swing from Labour recently in Labour territories than in 2007 when it was a "good year for them".

And since they are on the night of or since Glenrothes and throughout the country it would appear that Glenrothes may have to be seen in isolated local terms rather than as an indicator of the national mood.

It may also make Labour have second thoughts about going into an election as t
46

,

14/12/2008 18:17:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

BIG EYE,

Paisley 14/12/2008 19:27:30
50

Is that not the exciting thing, this bias of the media in favour of Labour against the SNP?

It is not new, it has been there for years but in their desperation to shore up an increasingly discredited union it becomes more desperate by the day.

What must really worry is that in May 2007, against a barrage of anti SNP propaganda Scotland elected a SNP government...ever since and particularly in recent times it is getting more and more ridiculous.

To SNP supporters I merely point out the Baltic countries where the Soviet controls became so stupid that the people just turned off and independence followed shortly thereafter.

That's the trouble with massive lies...they eventually catch up with you!
48

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 14/12/2008 20:44:26
Typicle answer from another one of the unionist, cannot move forward, idiots. Murdo Fraser is a buffoon who cannot keep up with Scottish Political change. Best he moves to england where he will be at home with his unionist friends.
49

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 14/12/2008 22:47:54
Laudable aims by the Church of Scotland but they must realise that too many tax payers in Scotland are servants of the public sector and where does the money come from to pay for this sector? From tax payers from the private sector.

If more support isn't provided to ensure this sector survives the current problems then the Church will require a much bigger "begging bowl". So lets hear it for private enterprise for once?

I recall when we could shop in M&S for goods made in the UK, eg from DAKS factory in Boness. Just try it now I challenge you to find one article of clothing made in Britain? The corporate greed of the likes of what was once an icon of the UK retail sector makes me livid. When they post their next round of profit warnings just beware its the far East who still will retain their margin at our expense.

A national institution is now a national disgrace and you have only yourselves to blame!
50

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 14/12/2008 22:49:37
#50 - and you really think this is change for the better. You must live in cloud cuckoo land in Ayrshire.
51

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 15/12/2008 20:09:13
The Kirk never seems to learn from experience. Remember the Berlin wall coming down and the delight of East Europoean countries that the experiment with "socialism" was over. Labour has amply demonstrated that with socialism taxes increase the public sector increases (In Scotland an incredible 25%) and cronyism and nepotism hit new highs with who being at the back of the list? That's right Wendy's two-year-old poor deprived weans. It's not that largesse is NOT directed at the depraved sector - it is in buckets. However the sermon for today is that the more money politicians the more they need for their own aggrandizement and to funnel into their own voting sectors. But the wages of sin are death - the more you reward failure, the more you get. Handing over another 3p in the pound would have the same effect as reducing VAT by 2.5% - i.e. nothing or worse.
52

Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org,

15/12/2008 21:58:51
#37 Wardog in response to your response on the #7 posting.

I would agree the Church and Religion has in history has been a major influence on Wars.

However in recent years the Church has lost its political control over the population.

Therefore the rulers of the land have to go it on their own.

Like Tony Blair with his "Texas brain washed rants about the need to take Saddam on Again".

A hell bent belief that he has tried to off load as a "god like calling". When it was probably just the result of a Texan Brain Wash.

Maybe that is why he wants to be a Catholic, so he can ask the Pope for forgiveness for the countless Iraq and British lives he is responsible for, before he dies?

Who needs Religion to create Wars now-a-days when you have the feckless out of control LIEBOUR PARTY.

If Tony Blair and www.scottish-labour-party.co.uk felt they had the right to secretly and illegally move Scotland's borders from Berwick-upon-tweed to Carnoustie in 1999, with consulting the Scottish People.

http://www.oilofscotland.org/scottish_politics.html#Scotlands_marine_boundries

What will Tony Blair and Labour Party Do Next "Go to War with Iraq on the strength of a pack of lies" against the will of millions of British protesters.

A vote for http://www.scottish-labour-party.co.uk is a vote against Scotland



53

Truth Teller www.oilofscotland.org,

15/12/2008 22:32:38
WITHOUT consulting the Scottish People.
54

donald,

glasgow 16/12/2008 07:45:34
John Reid, Brian Wilson and Tory Blair is the Church of Engerland at prayer.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.