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Expenses: Furniture ferried from Glasgow to London under deal between Scottish Labour colleagues

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Published Date: 24 May 2009
THE curious case of a luxurious £1,124 bed that travelled from Glasgow to London has uncovered a bizarre expenses pact that was brokered by two Labour MPs when they shared a second home in the capital.
For a year Michael Connarty MP and Ian Davidson MP shared a London flat, provoking comparisons to "The Odd Couple" played by Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau. While there they brokered an expenses agreement that saw furniture being ferried across the c
ountry courtesy of the Westminster allowances system.

Scotland on Sunday can reveal that Connarty claimed a £1,124 bed on his expenses, which was delivered to the Glasgow flat of his friend and colleague Davidson.

The peculiar arrangement was part of an agreement that was reached between the two politicians when Connarty was Davidson's tenant in London.

Instead of him paying Davidson rent, it was decided that Connarty should put furniture bought by his politician landlord on his Commons' expenses.

Connarty defended his use of taxpayers' money saying that he did not think that his MP's salary of £64,000 was "a lot of money".

"I do not agree with the argument that I'm a better MP than you, because I'm a cheaper MP. I've been 17-years an MP and I've worked my butt off. At the end of the day I don't think that £64,000 is a lot of money.

"I don't do it for the money (but] I want to live at least comfortably."

The complex arrangement saw Davidson buy the bed, a £1,099 plasma television and a £250 CD radio alarm clock for the flat.

Connarty then claimed the items that Davidson bought on his expenses and wrote his landlord a cheque for the money when he had been reimbursed by the Commons.

Connarty's cheques were taken by Davidson as a payment for letting him stay in his London flat.

Last night Connarty said Davidson, the MP for Glasgow South West, had bought the bed for his own use and had it sent round to his Glasgow flat so that he could then drive it down to London to install it in the flat.

The bed that Connarty slept in while they shared the flat in London had also been bought in Scotland.

Connarty, the MP for Linlithgow and Falkirk East, spent £1,114 on the bed and bed frame that he bought in Falkirk and had delivered to his constituency home there before Davidson took it down to London.

Connarty claimed the second bed on his expenses, but did not hand that money over to Davidson because he took it with him when he eventually moved out of the London flat.

Connarty also claimed for two sofas, which cost more than £600 each and were delivered to his Falkirk address. He then paid Davidson for one of the sofas out of the money that he had been reimbursed.

Davidson picked up the items from Connarty's Falkirk house and drove them down to London in a van that he had hired.

Last night Davidson said: "I told him 'I'm taking stuff down to London. We will get it delivered to my house and taken down to the London house we were sharing'. We did this, because if you ever try and get stuff delivered to London, you don't know when it is going to arrive.

"I got the stuff, hired a van, picked the stuff up from my house in Glasgow and picked up stuff from Mike's house (in Falkirk] and drove it down to London."

Connarty stayed with Davidson from October 2006 until November 2007. As well as paying for Davidson's furniture, he paid three months of his mortgage – a sum that he also claimed from his Commons' expenses.

Both MPs said the deal had been cleared by the Fees Office, the Commons' authority responsible for expenses.

When Connarty moved into another flat that he has bought in London, he took the "Falkirk" bed and one of the sofas with him as well as kitchen equipment such as pots and pans that he had claimed but not paid Davidson for.

Last night Connarty said: "The agreement was that I would share the mortgage. He didn't charge me rent. I paid three months (of the mortgage]. He didn't claim when I put the mortgage in. But he claimed the rest of it (the remaining nine months].

"The rest of the time, he asked by arrangement that I would put through these claims for things he had bought to furnish the flat.

"It does not seem to me to be an odd arrangement. It seemed perfectly reasonable that I should buy some furnishings for a flat I was living in, if, in fact, I was not paying for a flat of my own."

Connarty added: "I did (this] with prior agreement with the person in the finance department."

Both Connarty and Davidson claimed that the arrangement would have cost the taxpayer more if Connarty had rented a place on his own.

Connarty said: "I probably claimed less in that year then I have ever claimed before or after. Because on that claim was around £2,500 for the mortgage and then furnishings."

Davidson added: "All that was put in writing to the Fees Office – both of us – and it was agreed. They knew everything that was being done. We discussed this with the House of Commons authorities. It was perfectly clear to them that it would have cost much more for Mike to have gone into rented accommodation for a year. There was a net saving for the taxpayer."

Meanwhile, it emerged yesterday that the Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin claimed £50,000 on his expenses to rent his sister-in-law's farmhouse, just over the road from a home part-owned by his wife.

Jenkin, a former Tory deputy chairman, has been allowed until this August to pay his wife's older sister Mary Fraser, who lives at Moniack Castle near Inverness, using his second home allowance.

The arrangement was allowed even though a recent Commons rule change states MPs must not use family members as landlords.

Jenkin, MP for North Essex, is married to Anne Jenkin, a PR consultant who is a former girlfriend of Richard Curtis, the screenwriter.

Jenkin and his wife live in Kennington, south London. But he nominates a substantial Essex farmhouse as his second home which is owned by Fraser.

On the other side of the road from the farmhouse is a country house, whose registered owners are Anne Jenkin and Mary Fraser. Their mother lives in the country house.

It also emerged yesterday that Paul Goggins, the Northern Ireland minister, allows the director of a leading charity to live rent-free at his London home, which is financed by the taxpayer.

Goggins shares the house in south-east London with Chris Bain, who is the director of the Catholic aid charity Cafod and a friend since university. The two men have lived together for 11-years. For the last three years, Goggins, the MP for Wythenshawe and Sale East, has designated the London property as his second home and claimed almost £45,000 in expenses for it.





The full article contains 1208 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 May 2009 7:45 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Politicians' expenses
 
1

,

24/05/2009 00:00:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

kirk 1,

24/05/2009 00:03:44
They must think we're buttoned up at the back.

3

Jimbo2,

24/05/2009 00:05:41
No doubt Connarty and Davidson will be able to produce a receipt for the van hire.
4

kirk 1,

24/05/2009 00:10:47
Aye the same receipt as Devine used for an electrician.
See the Herald for that story.
5

Jimbo2,

24/05/2009 00:13:51
On the subject of Connarty: He can also, no doubt, produce the alarm clock he claimed £249.99 for. Only thing is, the company he claims to have bought it from say they've never sold the item as it doesn't exist.
6

kirk 1,

24/05/2009 00:17:47
# Would £250 have been the limit at which no receipt was required by any chance?
7

subrosa,

24/05/2009 00:27:41
# 6

Aye you're right. Fancy that!
8

Jimbo2,

24/05/2009 00:33:31
How Connarty and Davidson saved us money by only claiming expenses of almost half a million each over last three years...

Michael Connarty
Constituency: Linlithgow and East Falkirk
Party: Labour
Majority: 11202
Total expenses 2005-8: £493,089
Rank: 5 out of 646

2007/8
Total: £183,466
Second home: £23,083
London supplement: £0
Office expenses: £29,147
Staff: £81,455
Others: £49,781

Previous years
2005-06: £151,854
2006-07: £157,769


Ian Davidson
Constituency: Glasgow South West
Party: Labour
Majority: 13896
Total expenses 2005-8: £474,041
Rank: 18 out of 646

2007/8
Total: £170,014
Second home: £23,083
London supplement: £0
Office expenses: £26,679
Staff: £79,814
Others: £40,438

Previous years
2005-06: £155,349
2006-07: £148,678
9

,

24/05/2009 00:40:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/05/2009 00:44:31
Not bad at all really. Mr Connarty is being a little shy with the true figures...67k for his job but plenty little 'extras' to be had along the way if you know how to fiddle the system.

Central belt Labour has for a long time been the gravy train to Westminster, cash and the ultimate peerage to life them clear of their backgrounds.

Looks like the promotion prospects are diminishing by the day!
11

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 00:48:23
Michael Connarty said:

"I do not agree with the argument that I'm a better MP than you, because I'm a cheaper MP.

He must have been talking to triple Gold Medallist Eric Joyce, the only MP out of 650 to cost more than Connarty last year.
12

Ronald Penman,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 00:50:27
Oh Rufus Grahamski from the Black Lagoon - are ya there?

Not bloomin likely !

Yet more tales of NEW LABOUR
piggies with their fat snouts in the money trough.


And has anyone heard from our dear friend,one David Marshall ?
13

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/05/2009 00:55:57
Seems Jim Devine (ex-trade unionist..working people's man and all that cr*p) has possibly fiddled a bill for 2157 quid from an electrician that does not exist...on top of course of his fiddling of furniture money from Connarty and a parliamentary investigation into his expenses!

Can't beat the ex trade unionists on how to work they system comrade!
14

Iainbroch,

24/05/2009 01:07:10
re 3

Perhaps it was a Party Van? Sounds like the Van Hire Company did alright out of it though! Considering the number of times this furniture got moved!

At least they would not need to submit a huge cleaners claim for it as the furniture does not seem to have been in any one place long enough for it to gather dust?
15

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 01:11:10
#13 Nevsky

Variation on an old insurance scam, perfected by roofing contractors.

Check the "storm damage" and hand you two quotes on difference letterheads, the real although grossly inflated one is the cheapest.

Who says it can't be done with invoices?


16

Ronald Penman,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 01:15:20
And ah hear that our dear "friend" and NEW

LABOUR "socialist" Ian MacCartney MP has come over all

funny. Poor soul has had to retire permenatly to a

darkened room after having to pay back all

those "expenses".

He says his reputation was tarnished . NEVER !!!!

Missing you already COMRADE!
17

Warden Resurrected,

24/05/2009 01:27:06
The Labour party grass roots want representatives chosen by the grass roots.
18

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 01:28:42
17
Warden Resurrected

"The Labour party grass roots want representatives chosen by the grass roots."

Then maybe they should vote SNP.
19

Jimbo2,

24/05/2009 01:53:10
#11.

Falkirk has the most expensive MPs in Britain. Joyce and Connarty, between them, have claimed over a million pounds in expenses over last three years.

Eric Joyce
Constituency: Falkirk
Party: Labour
Majority: 13475
Total expenses 2005-8: £526,325
Rank: 1 out of 646

2007/8
Total: £187,334
Second home: £22,466
London supplement: £0
Office expenses: £21,392
Staff: £87,907
Others: £55,569
20

Brianwci,

24/05/2009 01:56:49
This expenses row is killing the Labour Party. There is no way out.

Even possibly genuine situations look worse the more the MP in question tries to explain it.

Alex Salmond's 20 MPs looks like being surpassed never mind reached.

The SNP grows more powerful as the union is weakened. One last massive push between now and Holyrood 2011 could see Independence.

Amazing times.
21

Iainbroch,

24/05/2009 02:02:55
re 20

Now Fib Dums Malcolm it is okay to lie Bruce has been caught doing a Marshall. Oh dear!snicker! snicker!
22

Warden Resurrected,

24/05/2009 02:04:28
18- many grass roots already did, that is why the SNP got into power at holyrood. What I am saying is they should take the opportunity to take the party back for the ordinary grass root members.
23

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 02:12:25
22
Warden Resurrected

"What I am saying is they should take the opportunity to take the party back for the ordinary grass root members."

I confess to being a little facetious. I do know what you mean. And I fully agree with you. Scotland's politics would have been a lot healthier if there had been a truly Scottish Labour Party forty years ago.
24

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 02:25:01
22 In an independent Scotland there will be a new party of the left. You need to project ahead.
25

Anonym,

24/05/2009 03:44:11
"At the end of the day I don't think that £64,000 is a lot of money."

You'd only be able to afford 256 alarm clocks!

If they cost £250 each, that is.
26

donald,

glasgow 24/05/2009 06:17:41
During the 1820 Insurrection the insurgents carried a banner proclaiming, "Scotland Free or a Desert". Scotland is not yet free and Labour's scorched earth policy has destroyed its own grass roots and made Scotland an Industrial and rural desert, whilst they seek the fat cat life in London town, home of the City of London and the English Queen, who have nothing to fear from them.

Time to weed them out now.
27

steve 1511,

aberdeen 24/05/2009 07:12:51
connarty and eric joyce experts at fraud
eric joyce lives in south croydon london his wife teaches in south croydon his kids go to school in south croydon how can he represent the people of falkirk west,
VOTE THESE TWO TROUGH FEEDERS OUT
28

,

24/05/2009 07:43:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

James,

Dundee 24/05/2009 07:44:11
We send these people to allegedly serve our needs in a foreign Paliament, when all they do is serve themselves.

As the Proclainmers would say

"We're cap in hand.
We fight when they ask us,
We boast we cower,
then we beg for a piece of
What's already, ours".

Let's take our country back and bring governance closer to the people.


30

James,

24/05/2009 07:52:23
"You may condemn me to immolation on the scaffold, but you cannot degrade me. If I have appeared as a pioneer in the van of freedom's battles - if I have attempted to free my country from political degradation - my conscience tells me that I have only done my duty. Your brief authority will soon cease, but the vindictive proceedings this day shall be recorded in history".

James Wilson, Weaver, 1820

He did more for his country in those words than Joyce or Connarty have done in a lifetime of preening, posturing and avarice.
31

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 24/05/2009 08:17:55
hanging them on lamposts would to good for these trough snoutters
32

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 24/05/2009 08:18:48
it would also make the lamposts look very untidy
33

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 24/05/2009 08:21:21
Where are the unionist numpties???? :o)
34

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 08:24:20
I see from the Independent on Sunday, things are getting even worse for Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon.
It appears he's asking advice from His Holiness Comrade Blair!!!!

"Gordon Brown has called Tony Blair into Downing Street as he desperately tries to rescue his leadership from a series of crises. The meeting on Thursday lasted more than an hour, coming amid the continuing outcry over MPs' expenses and warnings from ministers that Labour faces its worst performance in decades at next month's local and European elections.

There was also continued speculation that Mr Brown could face a challenge to his leadership in the wake of the double poll on 4 June.

The timing of the meeting, with Mr Brown's future in doubt, triggered talk in Westminster that the premier was asking Mr Blair for help. Sources said that they did not discuss election timing or strategy, but the conversation did cover domestic politics. The day after the talks, it emerged that Mr Brown will launch a "national plan for Britain" as part of his fightback."
35

Linda,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 08:35:26
Where is the supine Scottish press coverage of Lib Dem Malcolm Bruce employing wife and then claiming thousands on two houses at the one time or Eric Joyce failing to pay £40,000 capital gains tax as reported on front pages of English papers thismorning.
36

,

24/05/2009 08:36:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

,

24/05/2009 08:39:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Pilrig,

Livingston 24/05/2009 08:48:10
Surely we don't expect Connarty to exist on the same standard of living as the common herd he represents ?
39

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 09:04:56
#36 Linda

Thanks, I will go and check out some English papers.
40

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 09:23:37
#38 The Black Douglas,

I've been ready for "Britishness Day" that Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon announced many months ago.

In this new era of prudence, I made heaps of Butchers Apron bunting, shorts, hats etc.

I bought in heaps of tripe and jellied eels for the Morris Dancing event I had planned at our street party.

The tripe has begun to fester, a bit like the Union.


New Labour Sleaze - Time for a relaunch(again) with bold policies!!!
41

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 09:30:40
Looks like Jim Devine, of The Connarty Devine Furniture Trading Company, is sinking firmly into the smelly stuff!

This particular smelly stuff will be getting examined by the Polis!!!

From The Herald,

"ONLY A couple of tube stations from Westminster, the apartment blocks on Southwark Bridge Road, central London, seem an ideal home for MPs.

The mile-long stretch between the Thames and South Bank University is also the location for numerous companies of varying sizes.

One such enterprise appears to be Eastern Electrical Ltd, a firm whose name is printed on an invoice submitted as part of Scottish Labour MP Jim Devine's second home claims.


The £2157 repairs bill was dated June 2007 and paid by the Westminster Fees Office a month later, according to Devine's end-of-year allowances statement.

However, a Sunday Herald investigation can reveal that there are serious doubts over whether Eastern Electrical Ltd has ever existed."


NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - WE DO WORKING CLASS FRAUD!!!
42

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 09:41:24
29
kyle laffertys mullet

"I'm surprised nobody is asking what Plod is doing about all this..."

They are probably not because they are aware that the Met and the CPS are in the process of forming a joint panel to examine allegations of criminal acts and determine whether there is a basis for further investigation leading to possible prosecution. The panel begins work in the next few days.

Having said that, and for all the ill-informed ranting on the topic, proving criminal fraud is not so easy. See the following piece in The Times -

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6289751.ece
43

redcliffe62,

24/05/2009 09:46:05
i wish pollies of all parties just admit they were in the trough and resign. today, not at the next election.
minus their pay off and a gold leafed seat at wastemonster high, where the primary school kids go after leaving the house of commons.
anyone who steals over 5,000 pounds needs to go as the line in the sand.
this is fraud pure and simple, and the only query the met has is who not to arrest as those that have not broken the law sadly seem to be few and far between.
they have got a solid 20 who did not steal, does that mean the other 600 are guilty or does anyone else wish to PROVE he was honest as well?
44

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 09:50:50
45
redcliffe62

"...does anyone else wish to PROVE he was honest as well?"

I note that you favour abolishing the the presumption of innocence. What next? Indefinite detention without trial, perhaps? Summary execution?
45

Jay Kay,

24/05/2009 09:55:09
Well these two dishonourable scum bags should be seated at their respective desks in their surgeries come tomoorow morning, I would suggest the good people of Glasgow South and Falkirk take the issue up directly with the Mp's face to face, lets see the cheating lying theiving scumbags worm their way out of that, I wonder if their office can accomodate 50,000 disgurntled, unemployed constituents, constituents who, thanks to the Labour party have lots their jobs, their homes, the breakdown of marriages and the split up of famillies, I wonder if the right honourable gentlemen can justify to these people why £64,000.00 a year just isn't good enough.

I am expecting an ambulance to be on standby and the right honourable gentlemen to be on life support by this time tomorrow.
46

Jay Kay,

24/05/2009 09:58:39
Bribe scandal former leader jumps off cliff


SOUTH Korea's former president Roh Moo-hyun has ended his own life in the wake of a corruption scandal which tarnished his "clean" image.


Labout (note not a spelling error) Mp's take note, there are plenty of cliffs up in the highlands just waiting for you to visit.
47

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 10:05:09
48
Jay Kay

Rabid!
48

GM,

24/05/2009 10:09:46
TWENTY HIGHEST EXPENSES CLAIMANTS

Total claims 2005-08 (excluding travel)

Liam Byrne £ 478,536 LABOUR

Joan Ryan £ 469,893 LABOUR

Dan Norris £ 450,985 LABOUR

Shahid Malik £ 446,314 LABOUR

Charlotte Atkins £ 443,244 LABOUR

David Wilshire £ 438,377 TORY

Tom Levitt £ 436,686 LABOUR

Diana Johnson £ 436,632 LABOUR

Fabian Hamilton £ 435,999 LABOUR

Jacqui Smith £ 434,909 LABOUR

Margaret Moran £ 434,456 LABOUR

Ian Austin £ 434,409 LABOUR

A. Rosindell £ 434,149 TORY

Andrew George £ 434,062 LIBDEM

Dawn Butler £ 433,865 LABOUR

Roger Godsiff £ 433,298 LABOUR

Tim Farron £ 433,260 LABOUR

Peter Hain £ 431,905 LABOUR

Norman Lamb £ 431,683 LIBDEM

S. Hesford £ 431,527 LABOUR

Source: The Sunday Times 17.05/09
49

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 10:13:47
50
GM

"TWENTY HIGHEST EXPENSES CLAIMANTS"

Just because claims are relatively high does not, in itself, mean they are excessive or illegitimate, far less fraudulent.
50

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 10:14:43
#46

Maybe 42 day detention without charge???

A Rendition flight to Cuba maybe???

Torture and abuse???

Oh New Labour Sleaze should find that easy as they've already done it!!
51

GM,

24/05/2009 10:15:47
@51

and where have I suggested any such thing?
Merely posting information that is readily available in the public domain.

What people draw from the list is up to them - although it does appear that fraud was the first thing that jumped into *your* mind...
52

Martyk,

24/05/2009 10:16:03
It is pretty obvious there have been some criminally fraudulent goings on here. However it is also obvious that were mps to be led away in handcuffs by the hundreds ( yes hundreds ) as their behaviour may warrant , then this would have a seriously de-stabilising affect on the political situation in the UK. This cannot be allowed to happen. Like it or not. So expect a few sacrificial lambs to end up in court and the rest to go quietly at the next election. Thats reality. It stinks but its better than the alternative of possibly even civil disorder.
53

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 10:20:43
Connarty said "I've been 17-years an MP and I've worked my butt off" - Jeez-O, spare us that guff! I deal with MP's so-called 'work'for MY living; most of it cosists of 'my constituent hit a pothole' or 'he thinks the grass is a bit long' or 'the street light has been out for 3 weeks and Old Mrs McGlumpher is concerned that there might be a nasty accident' kind of stuff. As often as not written in very poor English. Do we really need to pay £100+k, a year, for 650 people to act as a conduit for local authority whinges? Is this REALLY what members of our National Legislature are for?
54

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 10:25:06
53
GM

"What people draw from the list is up to them..."

Raw data such as this is misleading. As your friends at The Telegraph know very well.

"...although it does appear that fraud was the first thing that jumped into *your* mind..."

Or so would like to imagine. Readers not encumbered with your prejudices will have noted that fraud was the last thing I mentioned.
55

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 10:28:11
54
Martyk

"It stinks but its better than the alternative of possibly even civil disorder."

Well said! The hysterical idiots trying to incite mob violence are far more dangerous than a few grasping MPs.
56

GM,

24/05/2009 10:43:32
@56

"Raw data such as this is misleading..."

what do you mean by that? Misleading to what? Misleading to the idea that 'its a lot of our money to be spending on expenses (excluding travel) - roughly 7 or 8 million pounds in a few years and counting only 3% of the number of MP's'?? Is that not an inference that can reasonably be demonstrated from the list or is it a misleading one?

Your 'defences' of those who may or may not have personally benefited from the expenses regime in this thread do appear at odds with the vast majority of the population. Generally that might imply one of two things -
1 - you have some personal interest yourself
2 - typically on the internet you find a person saying black when everyone else is saying white in a distorted and vain attempt to appear 'different' or 'intellectually superior'.


The 'Raw data' as you put it certainly does illustrate one thing and that is so called 'socialist' or 'left leaning' MP's account for 16 of the top 20 claims. One might have expected a list of champagne swilling Tories no?
57

Warden Resurrected,

24/05/2009 10:50:09
26-Nice rhetoric and would be good with any substance which is lacking. The Labour Party is heading for a wipe-out, these things happen with bad leadership. What you haven’t said is the Labour Party grass roots are likely to have their world ripped from under them as the Labour Party debt will have the party folded. Without a substantial opposition a nation has what can almost be described as a dictatorship. Independence on this footing will not create a rainbow of political parties which would benefit Scotland. PR has not had the positive effect people said it would have and doesn’t share power out to the people away from the big cities.
I looked at a proposed Scottish constitution by the SNP from 2002, it is a joke. Some ideas are made obsolete by what has happened with this expenses scandal. It still allows a change in prime minister without an election, something SNP supporters have been deriding the present Labour government over. The issue over the monarchy is ludicrous, imagine you were in favour of the crown and wanted to stay with those who would have it, why the vote over the monarchy after the independence vote when your nationally is already fixed. Principle eight is a nonsense too, who in their right mind allows a substantial minority bring about a referendum at the drop of a hat, that’s government by opinion poll almost, which is no government at all.
58

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 10:51:45
#57 Electric Hermit

Rubbish!

If apologist weasels like you had their way...The Bourbons would still be in charge in France...Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, ou la Mort!
59

GM,

24/05/2009 10:57:59
@57

"Well said! The hysterical idiots trying to incite mob violence are far more dangerous than a few grasping MPs."

yup, electric hermit displays his superiority again -

Others (meaning a chunk of the general population) are 'hysterical idiots'

Whilst those MP's (and its probably about 90% of them if not more) who have fleeced the expenses system and then worse, tried to stop the truth from coming out, are just a 'few grasping MP's'...

Nice spin mate, if it is that, rather than an innate inability to grasp the size and weight of this current scandal engulfing Westminster.


Thanks for that Hermit, keep defending them - it does illustrate one thing that's for sure, which I will leave to the rest of the contributors here to work out - with one clue -


Hermit promotes individualism rather than sheep mentality, but on the other hand would prefer the 'sheep' to maintain 'civil order' even in the face of the most corrupt goings on ever discovered in the history of parliament. Sounds like an MP doesn't it? perhaps a failed ulster unionist MP?

LOL!
60

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 11:03:13
58
GM

"what do you mean by that? Misleading to what?"

You need to learn that there are two sides to every transaction. Simply saying what something cost is not any indication of its value. Just to take a simple example for your guidance, one MP might claim £20,000 in travel expenses while another claims £2,000. Carelessly or maliciously presented this raw data could easily give the impression that the first claim is excessive. Which is what much of the media is currently doing.

But data is not information, far less knowledge. It becomes information only when it is put in a matrix with related data. Such as the fact that the first MP lives in the far north of Scotland, while the other one lives in central London.

You are representative of those who, manipulated by the media hype, take as your starting point the simplistic notion that every expenses claim by every MP is inherently wrong. The real world is a bit more complicated than that.

"Your 'defences' of those who may or may not have personally benefited from the expenses regime..."

A puerile straw man.

"One might have expected a list of champagne swilling Tories no?"

Only if one was given to "thinking" in terms of facile stereotypes.

Much as some would like to make it so, this is not a party political issue. It is basically an issue of bad management. A failure to implement adequate and effective controls. And this involves the whole Westminster "machine".
61

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 11:05:40
60
The Col. of Monte Cristo

I note that you wish to be counted among the mindless mob. You show every indication of being fully qualified.
62

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 11:10:55
#59 Warden Resurrected

Q) - "who in their right mind allows a substantial minority bring about a referendum at the drop of a hat"

A) - A democrat.

The alternative is the Status Quo...A periodically elected dictatorship, with a rather dull and repetitive back catalogue.
63

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 11:15:26
61
GM

"Others (meaning a chunk of the general population) are 'hysterical idiots'"

Those ranting about shooting politicians or stringing them up from lamp-posts may fit your idea of rational human beings. We are not all so foolish.

"Thanks for that Hermit, keep defending them..."

Another puerile straw man.Seems to be all the brain-dead Angry Villagers have to offer. Still, it must be easier than trying to come up with a rational defence of the hysterical ranting and celebration of mob violence.
64

alanh,

ek 24/05/2009 11:30:38
I wonder if the taxman will look into this as surely they are avoiding declaring income thru this ruse
65

Number 6,

Germany 24/05/2009 11:32:10
"Aye, but their the party uf the wurkin man, are they no" ?
66

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 11:32:20
#63 Electric Hermit,

I think you have misjudged the mood of the Mob.

The "mindless mob" are those who would continue voting "Labour" despite every shred of evidence gathered in the last twenty years...Pointing to a total betrayal of every value and principle that they once claimed to hold dear.

Amounting to metamorphosis into a beast somewhat to the right of the pre and post Thatcher Tories, led by a shower of vain, bloated, self-seeking charlatans.

My Mob are made up of individuals and we know what we are trying to do.
67

GM,

24/05/2009 11:51:22
@62 & 65

'Electric Hermit'
now that moniker does actually ring a bell from way back when...

yes,
I recall now, and the repeated us of 'straw men'...

'Electric Hermit' = "AM2" AICMFP



Anyway back kind of on topic... I posted a list of the top 20 expenses claims and it is *you*, my friend, who has made it party political - with every response you have made to my original posting @50

The point I really hoped to get across was the near £8m cost (excluding travel) for only 20 MP's out of the total.

Whatever the legality or morality of the claims, its still a vast amount of money, and money which we know in many, many cases should not have been claimed or paid. The largess of our representatives is exposed for all to see, coupled with the £100,000 attempts to cover it all up.

I for one, am glad of the expose, as you should be... but in typical AM2 fashion you mount a spinning 'defence' of the indefencible. Perhaps your 'MP roots' are shining through that thinnest of veneers you have.

Have a nice day AM2, I'm sure others will be along shortly to ridicule yet another of your 'benefits of the union' contributions on this thread.

68

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 11:52:28
68
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"The "mindless mob" are those who would continue voting "Labour" despite every shred of evidence gathered in the last twenty years...Pointing to a total betrayal of every value and principle that they once claimed to hold dear."

You are referring to a different thing entirely. Regrettable as it may be that some people unthinkingly put party loyalty before the interests of Scotland and its people, these are not the mindless mob whose hysterical over-reaction to a media-hyped expenses "scandal" has them ranting about shooting and hanging MPs or attacking them in their constituency offices.

This kind of overblown rhetoric is as irresponsible as it is idiotic. Let's keep a sense of perspective here. What we are talking about is an expenses fiddle. At worst, a betrayal of trust. These are not mass-murderers or child-molesters. They are ordinary people whose all-too-human failings led them to take advantage of an expenses scheme which was so badly designed and administered that it almost demanded to be ripped off.
69

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 11:55:39
69
GM

"...it is *you*, my friend, who has made it party political..."

By explicitly stating that it is NOT party political. Whatever I write, you read the opposite. Is there a name for this condition?

70

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 11:57:22
69
GM

"...but in typical AM2 fashion..."

Who the hell is "AM2"? You've lost it completely.
71

GM,

24/05/2009 11:58:02
@65

actually AM2, I don't think I've seen a massive upsurge of the 'hang em high' brigade on any forum, paper or through discussion with other folks.

I assume its just your usual attempts to deflect from the real point.

You assume when a person says "hang em from a lamp-post" that they mean that literally. Sorry my ulster unionist chum, but these are almost without exception figures of speech.

I sometimes wonder what rosy cossetted world you actually live in not to see the difference.

I would also point out that nowhere will you find any reference from me personally inciting any kind of mob violence, so it does appear that your own very real prejudices about me are glaring for all to see. I challenge you to find *a single* reference from me to bringing any kind of violence to MP's.


I would refer you back to my list at 50 and perhaps this time you can make a contribution without abuse.
72

Warden Resurrected,

24/05/2009 11:58:42
64-The people as de facto government fantastic. Every issue voted on allowing for the total electorate to speak on every issue. The Status Quo and a periodically elected dictatorship will look and feel like a luxury after the first few weeks. Imagine the people taking to it, what next, paint drying as an Olympic sport, gold medal again for Scotland.
People like choice yes, they just can’t handle too much choice without their brains going into meltdown.
73

,

24/05/2009 12:06:00
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74

GM,

24/05/2009 12:07:11
@70
"At worst, a betrayal of trust. These are not mass-murderers or child-molesters. They are ordinary people whose all-too-human failings led them to take advantage of an expenses scheme which was so badly designed and administered that it almost demanded to be ripped off."


Wrong again AM2
These people who are our representatives are not expected to have the same 'all too human failings' as the rest of us. They are supposed to be respected upstanding and ideological members of society who we choose to represent us as a whole.

If the system was as 'dodgy' as you imply then why did *not one* of them decide to correct the situation or bring it the publics attention earlier?

Why did MP's battle to hide the truth?

You also miss the point that the 'system was so badly designed'... but it was they themselves who put it in place for goodness sake! Thats the reason for the outcry - not because someone bought a duck house, but because they were *able* to claim this back and got their 'expenses' paid and they wholly thought they were entitled to it!!

'Demanded to be ripped off'... nicely put that the MP's who designed, claimed within, and tried to hide the 'system' were then all willing to 'rip it off'.


"At worst a betrayal of trust" - utter b o**ocks and you know it.
but hey lets get references in to rapists and child molesters to make it all seem ok.

Who's being hysterical now?
Personally I see them not as rapists but more in line with benefit frauds, thieves and con men. But hey, I'm just one of the village idiots. Perhaps if they faced the same sanctions as benefit frauds, thieves and con men some of the public's anger would be assuaged?


AM2, that post of yours is the most apologist yet.
75

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 12:08:16
#62 Electric Hermit, - "But data is not information, far less knowledge. It becomes information only when it is put in a matrix with related data. Such as the fact that the first MP lives in the far north of Scotland, while the other one lives in central London."

OK, suppose an MP who lives with his wife and children in Croydon but has a constituency in central Scotland, was to be the highest or second highest travel expense claimer in each of the past 7yrs.

His office and second home are within a 10min walking distance of two main line train stations with direct, interconnecting and sleeper services to London but a £40/50 taxi ride or a £10/15 bus+train expedition from the airport.

Grounds for suspecting that this fellow might be misusing our hard earned tax-dollars?
76

RDavis,

Vienna 24/05/2009 12:11:57
"I've been 17-years an MP and I've worked my butt off. At the end of the day I don't think that £64,000 is a lot of money."
What a bloody cheek that means he has had 17 years of claiming expenses, I wonder is his constituents would agree £64K isn't a lot of money....come the revolution!
77

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 12:16:41
77
The Col. of Monte Cristo

Looks like you are beginning to get the idea. Each claim/payment has to be assessed on its own merits in the light of all the information relating to that claim/payment.
78

Ronald Penman,

Glasgow 24/05/2009 12:21:55
Oh dear, its not a good weekend for the Galloping Major! NEW LABOURS finest - and biggest "expenses" claiment - has, to quote him directly, "shafted myself", after admiting to the Mail on Sunday that he
"made an error" when submitting claims to the tune of ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY THOUSAND POUNDS!

On the cover, and over two complete pages inside,Joyce is revealed in all his Glory! - Including the fact that he attacked, and was subsequently convicted for
a vicious assault on a female school teacher.
A nasty piece of work !

Also newspapers are speculating that up to 325
of the crooks at Westminster will have to be cleared out by the time of the next election. So much for the "few bad apples" contrivance. And yet the Archbishop of Canterbury moans it should all remain secret.....
79

GM,

24/05/2009 12:24:26
The Labour MP who claims the highest expenses in the Commons has confessed that he may have charged £160,000 too much.

Eric Joyce admitted he had claimed more than £120,000 from his second-home allowance on a house in London where he lived for eight years with his wife and children.

He also agreed he may have blundered by not paying £40,000 in capital gains tax when the property was sold for a £130,000 profit.

Nor did he pay capital gains tax when he sold a small flat in his Scottish constituency, listed as his 'main home', around the same time.
80

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 12:26:04
78
RDavis

£64k is a lot of money if you currently make £15k. But it is not a lot of money if you could potentially earn £150k.

Whatever the Angry Villagers may believe, nobody goes into politics for the money. You would struggle to find a single MP who would not enjoy a significantly greater income if they were not in parliament.

And let us not lose sight of the fact that, bad as the allowances and expenses system may have become, it is rooted in the most worthy intention that politics should be open to all and not the preserve of the independently wealthy as it once was.
81

Warden Resurrected,

24/05/2009 12:38:54
Fantastic news Mr sas wicks the tory supporter who has seemed to have gained more information from Westminster than is possible on the disk which he sold to the sleazy Telegraph is owing £7 million all over the place from a number of failed businesses - he's a crook. What is more he is friends with a number of tory grandees which he has made sure are not on the disk - crook again. This man makes the members of parliament look amateurs.
82

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 13:09:25
#81 GM

And into the Valley of death...rode the Mad Major.

http://tinyurl.com/olsxha

http://tinyurl.com/r7h99v
83

Martyk,

24/05/2009 13:18:30
I am old enough to remember when Britain was held up to be a paragon of incorruptibility in public life along with the Scandinavian countries and one or two others. I have no interest in scoring party political points here or anywhere else on the matter. But when I heard on Radio 4 during the week that the UK was now regarded as third most corrupt nation in the EU after Italy and Greece I must say I was genuinely shocked and saddened. That it should come to this.
84

Martyk,

24/05/2009 13:22:11
By the way. Is it true that Tony Blairs expenses details have been accidentally shredded? Anyone heard anything of this ?
85

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 24/05/2009 14:16:35
#82 AM2

"Whatever the Angry Villagers may believe, nobody goes into politics for the money. You would struggle to find a single MP who would not enjoy a significantly greater income if they were not in parliament."

Lets put your theory to the test, lets have a General Election then a year later you can tell us all about the MPs who were not re-elected and how they have gone on to more lucrative professions.
86

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 24/05/2009 14:24:43
#82 AM2

Continued,

I doubt that many like Ian Davidson will fall on their feet.

Not many openings for "Class Warrior" these days.
87

Curley Bill,

24/05/2009 14:43:56
#82 AM2

"Whatever the Angry Villagers may believe, nobody goes into politics for the money. You would struggle to find a single MP who would not enjoy a significantly greater income if they were not in parliament."

Rarely have I read such unadulterated tripe!
One only has to peruse the details of the MPs to see that they consist of untested lawyers, social workers, old school tie wearing hooray henrys, jumped up shop stewards and political careerists who have merrily crapped over their constituents for years.
I would suggest that it is the minority who would prosper out in the big, bad world of private employment.
You sir, Electric Helmet or whatever you call or yourself this week, have as much grasp of lucid debate as Brown has of his 'moral compass'.
88

mr broon,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 14:52:25
Unless the PM shows some bottle and redds out these parasites he will go down as one of the most ineffectual in history!

89

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 15:01:24
The Charge of the Sleaze Brigade.

Half a lie, half a truth,
Half a fudge onward,
All in the valley of Greed
Rode the six fifty.
`Forward, the Sleaze Brigade!
Charge for the trough!' he said:
Into the valley of Greed
Rode the six fifty.

`Forward, the Sleaze Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the PM knew
someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to cheat and lie:
Into the valley of Greed
Rode the six fifty.

Allowances to right of them,
Freebies to left of them,
Pensions in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Straight to the Banknote's Smell
Democracy can go to Hell
Yell'd the six fifty.

Flash'd all their chequebooks bare,
Flash'd as they flipp'd in air
Sabring the voters there,
Charging a fortune,
while All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the cigar-smoke
Right thro' the lines they broke;
Duck Island Clock and Moat
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six fifty.

Taxman to right of them,
Fraud Squad to left of them,
Careers behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While trougher and fraudster fell,
They that had scammed so well
Came thro' the jaws of Gread,
Back from their evil deed,
All that was left of them,
Left of six fifty.

When can the infamy fade?
O' the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Condemn the Claims they made!
De-select the Sleaze Brigade,
The Dishonourable six fifty!
90

Willie Mor,

24/05/2009 15:13:33
Scotland should be proud to have a Labour MP with the highest expenses in the whole of the United Kingdom.

That, together with the fact that his wife who teaches in Croydon, and has his children educated there,shows what total commitment our Falkirk MP has to Scotland and his constituents.

Yes, fearless in his fight against poverty and for social equality, the good citizens of Falkirk should be grateful to have such a man living and residing within their community!
91

James,

Dundee 24/05/2009 15:17:58
Labour was elected in 1997 to 'meet the challenge ...make the change' .....amended to 'screw the challenge...keep the change'.
(Copyright Kinnochio &co.)

They have in fact betrayed all who begged for change after the Thatcher/Major years.

The poverty gap has widened, and those of us lucky enough to still be in gainful employment, are endebted as never before, and our children will have to emigrate or face an economic desert.

I fear (well I hope actually) that they meet the same fate as the Canadian Conservative Party and are wiped out.

Its what they deserve after all, as they talk Socialist and play the Tories game. They have been found out now, and if they had any shred of integrity, they would GO NOW!!

A Free, Independent Scotland moves closer by the day.



92

James,

Dundee 24/05/2009 15:21:14
p.s Welcome back AM2, still in charge of an army of Straw Men I see?

The Angry Villagers ill have the last say, but thats not what you want is it?
93

,

24/05/2009 16:01:41
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94

Curley Bill,

24/05/2009 16:15:24
The third horseman in Labour's apocalypse has arrived:

'All Salmond has to do now is set foot in Glasgow North, or Paisley and Renfrewshire North, or Linlithgow and Falkirk East and mention the word “expenses” and the votes will start to swing his way.'

Unbelievably, the above was written by Jenny Hjul who, in the Sunday Times, tears the Labour Party to shreds.
Thingd must be grim for the champagne comrades when such a fervent 'socialist' turns on them.
95

,

24/05/2009 16:23:22
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96

,

24/05/2009 16:36:14
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97

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 17:05:55
#97 Curley Bill - "The third horseman in Labour's apocalypse has arrived"

The apearance of the Fourth Horsman has been foretold in todays Mail on Sunday:

Opinion Poll

Q) How would you vote if a general election were held tomorrow?

SNP - ....................32%
Labour - ................20%
Conservative - ........8%
Lib/Dem - ................8%
Green - ...................2%
Others - ..................4%
Will not Vote - ......25%

Using electoral calculus they projected only 13 seats for labour, 9 for the lib/dems, 2 for the Tories...for some inexplicable reason, they neglected to mention how many the SNP would get.

24 less than whatever the total is, A handsome majority I would imagine.
98

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 17:29:48
#99 The Black Douglas

I checked the list of 26 labour MP's, who would get the chop if the Poll was mirrored in a general election.

He is Doomed! ;-)
99

,

24/05/2009 18:29:23
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100

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 18:30:33
97
Curley Bill,

"Thingd must be grim for the champagne comrades when such a fervent 'socialist' turns on them."

There is nothing surprising about a socialist turning against the British Labour Party (aka New Labour). Any socialist would find this this lot repellent.
101

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 18:35:00
102
Best of British

"How this tawdry system of rules has made a victim of another fine, upstanding British parliamentarian!"

You've got it a bit mixed up. The "system of rules" merely facilitated abuse. But if a system is open to abuse, it will be abused. That is something the self-righteous hypocrites who are getting all frothy-mouthed about this issue need to learn.
102

,

24/05/2009 18:48:14
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103

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 18:49:34
If the New Labour Sleaze comrades had put the same effort into sorting out the country's problems, as they had into trading furniture, fiddling expense receipts and generally defrauding the taxpayer the economy might have been in better shape and we might not be the laughing stock of the world.

But look on the bright side - independence is getting nearer by the day!!!
104

,

24/05/2009 18:52:36
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105

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 18:56:31
105
Best of British

"We even had some lunatic on here some time ago claiming he crushed a car that didn't belong to him..."

There is is a fine line between the cleverly cryptic and the totally incomprehensible. look behind you and you may still be able to see that line as it fades into the distance.

106

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 18:57:45
The Devine-Connarty Furniture Trading Company will be held up in years to come as one of the greatest expense frauds ever.

What brilliance!

What foresight!

No doubt the Harvard Business School will write endless books about the scheme.

A bit like "Ponzi Pyramid Trading", BCCI fraud, Maxwell's Pension Theft.

New Labour Sleaze - Nobody does fraud like us!!!
107

,

24/05/2009 18:59:08
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108

,

24/05/2009 19:00:19
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109

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 19:13:43
110
Best of British

"What sort of frothy mouthed, swivel-eyed oddity would claim he crushed a car he never owned?"

Is this something to do with the MP's expenses furore? I don't recall hearing anything about claims for cars being crushed.
110

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 19:15:45
British,

The Devine-Connarty Furniture Trading Company are listed as having their office in Falkirk with a sub office in Livingston, a branch in London, 3 flats (or 2nd homes as they are known in the HoC). They'll give you receipts for anything you want (for a price of course).

If you need any laws changed they can put you in touch with intermediaries (or Lords as they are usually know) who, for the piddling sum of £80,000, will get any law amended that you want!! This part of the business is known as Devine-Connarty Facilitators Ltd, and are based at any address you care to make up!!


Yes this go ahead, dynamic group of companies are leading the way in sleaze and corruption!!


NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - SLEAZE IS WHAT WE DO BEST.
111

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 19:20:53
#105
Best of British


The DVLC are so proud of their car-crushing exploits, they make surreal video's of them.

Car-crushing is restricted to property belonging to tax avoiders, once a DVLC operative spots one, he must first fill out Form AM2 and voilà...the car is turned into a cube!
112

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 19:22:00
I see from The Telegraph some more sleazy details are coming out!

4 beds in a 1 bedroom flat???

What kind of perversions were going on there I wonder??

Was Mr Jacqui Smith filming proceedings???

Was Nigel Griffith starring as the porn star???

I'm surprised there are no receipts for cleaning etc??

The mind boggles!!

"Among the purchases made by Angela Smith, the Labour MP for Sheffield Hillsborough, were four beds for her one-bedroom London flat.

In her first year in Parliament, Miss Smith, whose husband Steve Wilson works for her as a researcher, claimed £7,800 under the additional costs allowance (ACA)."
113

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 19:24:42
114
The Col. of Monte Cristo

What has car-crushing to do with MP's expenses. I seem to have missed some part of The Telegraph's maliciously orchestrated revelations.
114

,

24/05/2009 19:26:39
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115

,

24/05/2009 19:27:59
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116

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 19:28:14
117,

I think Paddy O'Poison had is car crushed for evading tax on it (a common unionist failing!)
117

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 19:30:51
#119 should have been for #116.

I'm not very good with figures ( a common New Labour Sleaze excuse for expenses fraud!)
118

,

24/05/2009 19:30:58
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119

,

24/05/2009 19:31:56
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120

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 19:34:30
#118
Best of British

It would seem that all this car-crushing has thinned the ranks of AM2's, making training replacements a matter of some urgency.

http://www.shrewsbury.ac.uk/docs/AM2_Application_Form_April09_onwards.pdf
121

,

24/05/2009 19:35:00
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122

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 19:37:38
I see New Labour Sleaze are planning to means test pensioners, so only the poorest get £250/year Winter Fuel Allowance.

That should free up some cash to pay expenses.

If a few pensioners freeze to death that's a small price to pay for keeping our comrades in the style they've become accustomed to!!

A radio alarm costs £250 you know!
123

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 19:39:31
117
Best of British

"Poor Andy Burham! Forced by the fees office to claim simultaneously for not one, but two "second" homes in London!"

What inane drivel is this? How could the Fees Office "force" anyone to make a claim.
124

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 19:42:37
119
Jimmy Le Pie

"I think Paddy O'Poison had is car crushed for evading tax on it..."

I'm not aux fait with the nicknames. Who is "Paddy O'Poison"?
125

,

24/05/2009 19:42:56
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126

,

24/05/2009 19:43:33
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127

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 19:44:51
Its good to see that Scottish New Labour Sleaze MP's are striving hard to be the best.

From the MoS,

"The Labour MP who claims the highest expenses in the Commons has confessed that he may have charged £160,000 too much.

Eric Joyce admitted he had claimed more than £120,000 from his second-home allowance on a house in London where he lived for eight years with his wife and children.

He also agreed he may have blundered by not paying £40,000 in capital gains tax when the property was sold for a £130,000 profit.

Nor did he pay capital gains tax when he sold a small flat in his Scottish constituency, listed as his 'main home', around the same time."
128

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 19:49:46
#127 electric,

Paddy O'Poison is an odious creature who used to post regularly on here. After being continually humiliated he left vowing never to return. He then went on to set up a website dedicated to all things unionist.
He works on here as a part time censor/statistician and party enforcer.


He hails from the lovely city of Derry in Ireland and has bought a nice white horse after his car got crushed. (It's not so easy to crush a white charger!!)
129

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 19:52:52
Another loyal comrade getting a hard time in the Telegraph!!

"Debt collectors were sent to the offices of Sir Peter Soulsby, where his wife Alison works for part of the week as his secretary, after he fell behind with his rent in October 2007.

The fees office agreed that the Labour MP for Leicester South should not be liable for the £472.59 bailiff’s bill and reimbursed him.

Sir Peter had arranged for the fees office to pay the £2,423 quarterly rent and service charge for his constituency office, close to Leicester’s city centre, direct to the landlord.

However, a request from Sir Peter’s office for the amount to be paid “went astray” and he slipped into arrears. He blamed the landlord because of a dispute over service charges."
130

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 19:54:19
#29
Best of British

Electric Hermit does not appear to be an obscure science fiction, comic book or old movie character and made no attempt to discredit the opinion poll at #100 so perhaps could be given the benefit of the doubt...provisionally.
131

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 19:57:38
128
Best of British

"Sorry Electric, I thought you were seeking above to deflect blame from our Best of British parliamentarians, in our iconic British parliament, by suggesting this was all the fault of the system..."

Of course it is the fault of the system. There can be no abuse of a system unless that system is open to abuse. And the more open to abuse a system is, the more likely it is that fallible human being will be tempted to take advantage. That doesn't make the abusers any less culpable. It merely acknowledges that there is another aspect to the issue.

Take an analogy. You leave your house with obvious indications of your absence, an open window and a ladder conveniently propped against the garage. Your house is burgled. The fact that your stupidity played a part in that burglary does nothing to diminish the culpability of the burglar.
132

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24/05/2009 19:59:19
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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:01:29
134 Electric Pelmet,

If you leave your house with obvious indications of your absence, an open window and a ladder conveniently propped against the garage. Your house is burgled.

Try claiming on your insurance??

If your a New Labour Sleaze MP you can always claim on your expenses as some have already done!!!!
134

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 20:02:32
131
Jimmy Le Pie

"Paddy O'Poison is an odious creature who used to post regularly on here."

This is all news to me. Especially the stuff about the car-crushing. I am still a bit puzzled as to why tis was even raised, as it seems to have nothing whatever to do with the topic.
135

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 20:03:52
Oops I have just realised that I am a character from an old movie as was my recently deceased previous Moniker.

I assure you all, I have never had a car crushed in anger.

Though I was fined £40 last month for neglecting to sign the SORN declaration, for one of the rustingg hulks in my front garden.
136

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 20:05:07
136
Jimmy Le Pie

Sad to see you descend into infantile name-calling. Despite an earlier misunderstanding, I had taken you for one of the more mature posters here.
137

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:07:44
139 Electric Helmet,

Don't take it personal. I'm dyslexic!!
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The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 20:10:56
#136 Jimmy Le Pie - "If you leave your house with obvious indications of your absence, an open window and a ladder conveniently propped against the garage. Your house is burgled."

Shhh!...I think he has found out where I live...the bit about the rusty cars, was to throw him off the scent.
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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:11:52
#141 Legend,

No you've got that wrong.

You need more food in Scotland because it's colder and you need more calories.

I see you're still running with your spelling mistake.

That could cost the union dear. You must try harder.
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24/05/2009 20:13:57
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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:14:25
Wow where did all the red come from???
145

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24/05/2009 20:14:38
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24/05/2009 20:19:02
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The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 20:19:27
That is the fastest red ink I have ever seen...Has Uncle Hoots adopted an auto delete system, based on the New England witch trials?
149

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 20:20:37
148
Best of British

Or the Glenrothes Election Data.
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24/05/2009 20:21:00
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24/05/2009 20:21:44
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Pentland,

Ex Embra 24/05/2009 20:23:01
£64,000.00 a fair wage for working your butt off? So the minimum wage will get a hike now?
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24/05/2009 20:23:26
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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:26:21
Can you claim 'repartee' on expenses???

Can you claim 2nd 'repartee' on expenses???

If 'repartee' is dead can you still claim???
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24/05/2009 20:28:16
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The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 20:30:36
#155
Pentland,

Michael Conarty claimed for three replacement Butt's in the last Parliamentary session alone...Jim Devine is renting one of them for £1,450 per month as a Second Home.
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 20:30:40
143
Best of British

"Who designed and voted the system into effect?"

The shambolic system that now exists is largely the creature of successive executives. Back-bench MPs had little or nothing to do with it. The defects in the system can be put down to a number of factors. Tinkering rather than grasping the nettle of meaningful reform is certainly part of the problem.

Also, the expenses and allowances scheme has been used as an under-the-counter alternative to proper salary increases for MPs by governments, Labour and Tory, too afraid of the kind of hysterical shenanigans we see now to do the job properly.

Some commentators also suggest that the expenses system has been used by the increasingly power-hungry executive to "buy-off" back-benchers and make the more pliant. There is a hint of truth about this. And, in such circumstances, it would suit the executive to allow or even encourage abuses which members would fear to have exposed.

All human interactions at every level are transactions of power. Never mind "follow the money" or "cherchez la femme". If you want some insight, just look at the way power is traded.
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24/05/2009 20:31:14
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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:33:00
#158 Legend,

Are you saying Ian Paisley and Alex Salmond are one and the same??? And they have a bacon curing factory???

Well I never.
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24/05/2009 20:33:59
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hoblar,

24/05/2009 20:34:20
Hey.

labour are the real story, if it was the SNP then this paper and most of the others in the media who back the losing new labour brand would fill page after page with their deluded bile.

The media has no problems when it comes to anti SNP spin, and the reason they are bereft of reasons to do this is because it is 'New'Labour (and the Tories, but they'll gain westminster regardless) who are making the NEW headlines.

Ensure that the unionist parties, completely unaccountable electorally in Scotland get no votes, and let's keep the momentum of the rise of the SNP.

if England had an alternative to the unionist political parties, the vote would be a given, Scotland is very lucky indeed.
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24/05/2009 20:34:35
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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:37:15
#163,

I would use the Devine-Connarty Furniture Trading Company's( cash only - no receipts!) van's if I was selling hot dogs in Buchan Castle.
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24/05/2009 20:37:21
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hoblar,

24/05/2009 20:37:37
Oh, and Jim devine is a useless politician, and no wonder, he came in when Robin Cook died, not because he had any skills but because he was in the right place at the right time-he still reduced Cook's majority by 10,000 a mere 8 months after Cook was voted for in a General Election.

The people of livingston will punish this useless article when they get the chance.
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24/05/2009 20:38:28
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24/05/2009 20:40:13
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The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 20:41:17
#165
Best of British

How does one hire a non-existent Company with a non-existent address and a non-existent phone number...and where do you send the cheque?
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24/05/2009 20:42:33
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hoblar,

24/05/2009 20:43:25
What a troller.

Well done, but not one single inhabitant of scotland will vote for new labour token efforts like Devine and the greedy guts who has the Falkirk Lithgae seat.

So your efforts might are for nowt, people like yourself that can't handle the greed of new labour, a party that rose to electoral success by out torying the tories and promising to end SLEAZE, are given the wake up call....you already come across like someone who has been thrashed, just like the buffoons you love so much that have messed up the uk economy and ripped off the public purse.

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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:46:44
#169,

If they are blood brothers why aren't they called Ian and Alex Salmond, or Ian and Alex Paisley??

Or are they doing it like that for tax reasons???

I thought Ireland was independent apart from a couple of chicken runs up the North East corner??
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24/05/2009 20:47:45
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Sgian Achlais,

24/05/2009 20:47:51
72Electric Hermit, 24/05/2009 11:57:22
69
GM

"...but in typical AM2 fashion..."

Who the hell is "AM2"? You've lost it completely.

=========================

LMFAO
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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:50:05
#175 British,

Of course and as New Labour Sleaze are setting the pace in the expenses stakes, they are the party to follow.

What a fool I've been!!
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The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 20:52:05
#172 BoB

Could it be that this Eastern Electric Company is a front for the "A Team" and a big black van just appears from nowhere...Hannibal Smith and co get the job done then vanish off into the sunset.
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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 20:52:52
I think I'll have to go.

Word has it Susan Boyle is appearing on Britain is Bankrupt on STV singing Rule Britannia to the tune of God Save the Queen while wearing a Butchers Apron miniskirt!!

Back soon!
177

Sgian Achlais,

24/05/2009 20:55:57
Vote Labour if you do not care about your country.

Vote Labour if you do not care about yourself

Vote Labour if you not care about good government

Vote Labour if you do not care about the world your children will inherit.

Vote Labour if you want to live (or continue living) in poverty and unemployment.

Vote Labour if you support wasting money

Vote Labour if you are really easily fooled

Vote Labour if you want a government of liars

Vote Labour if you are a numpty
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24/05/2009 21:00:54
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24/05/2009 21:01:41
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The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 21:02:17
#180 Sgian Achlais

The ranks of the Numpties may be getting depleted... From the MoS.

Q) How would you vote if a general election were held tomorrow?

SNP - ....................32%
Labour - ................20%
Conservative - ........8%
Lib/Dem - ................8%
Green - ...................2%
Others - ..................4%
Will not Vote - ......25%
181

GM,

24/05/2009 21:07:18
===================================

AND THE QUOTE OF THE DAY AWARD GOES TO -

===================================

"electric blanket" AKA "AM2"

Here it is in all its glory from post number 116 -
"What has car-crushing to do with MP's expenses. I seem to have missed some part of The Telegraph's maliciously orchestrated revelations."


Of *course* the Telegraphs revelations were *entirely* malicious and lets not miss the use of the word 'Orchestrated' as if the revelations are in some way a fabrication!!!


What a beauty!

If I was in any way similar to some failed ulster unionist MP who regularly takes posts from the Scotsman columns as 'post of the day', then this would be my post of the *year*


Its an absolute howler - yes, we can all see its the Telegraph to blame for he whole mess!!!

oh my god my sides are bursting.

Nice one AM2, I've never seen such an embarrassing set of posts from you since "there will be no council tax freeze".
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 21:28:03
184
GM

You are a seriously confused simpleton. I was the one who made the comment you refer to, not this "AM2" that you are so strangely obsessed with.

And "orchestrated" does not mean "fabricated". Get a dictionary. Then ask a grown-up to show you how to use it.
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24/05/2009 21:39:32
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GM,

24/05/2009 21:54:49
@185

Thankfully, being the grownup that I am with access to the internet, I managed to look up the dictionary definition of 'orchestrated' and among the more musical meanings is -

"2. to arrange or manipulate, esp. by means of clever or thorough planning or maneuvering"


so, you are saying that the Telegraph "arranged or manipulated by means of clever or thorough planning or maneuvering"...

whoops!
Isn't that what our MP's have been doing with their expenses?

and please Hermit, how about a post where you don't try and belittle me or everyone else through abuse or name-calling... do you think you could do that? or is everyone else intellectually insignificant compared to your own musings on the topic of MP's expenses?

I'm not sure how you could believe that since we have moved from your own presumptions that the top 20 claimants is somehow insignificant, through to everyone else being hysterical comparing our MP's to rapists and child abusers (even though they are not), now on to it all being the Telegraph's fault.

Quite, quite bizarre, but here you have it for all to see and read.
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24/05/2009 21:55:07
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24/05/2009 21:57:36
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GM,

24/05/2009 21:58:00
@186

lol!

never have I seen such a series of ill-timed and ill-conceived posts as Electric-Toasters, since, well, since AM2 agreed there would never be a council tax freeze. I'm tempted to cut and paste his contributions into a database for future reference but then again, I'm not the failed ulster unionist MP.

Perhaps I should set up a blog though, in defence of MP's claims and Electric Hermit can come along and post a myriad of contributions.
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24/05/2009 21:58:46
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 22:06:22
186
Best of British

"The real issue in all this is the jolly unsporting and frankly un-British bad grace shown by the Telegraph in publishing all this!"

Not the "real" issue. A separate but related issue. As a number of posters here, and commentators elsewhere, have noted The Telegraph is drip-feeding this information in a manner deliberately designed sensationalise the issue and maximise the benefit to their circulation.

Anyone who imagines The Telegraph, or any of the predominantly right-wing press, as being selflessly committed to the public good is seriously deluded.

Information is power. And only a fool turns a blind eye to the way that power is being used.
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24/05/2009 22:09:12
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 22:11:35
187
GM

"so, you are saying that the Telegraph "arranged or manipulated by means of clever or thorough planning or maneuvering"..."

It is glaringly obvious to all but the most blinkered that The Telegraph is manipulating the release of this information. Are you really so dense that it hasn't occurred to you to question the way it is being done? Or are you just distracted by the shiny baubles?

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
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24/05/2009 22:14:04
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 22:14:05
187
GM

"I'm not sure how you could believe that since we have moved from your own presumptions that the top 20 claimants is somehow insignificant, through to everyone else being hysterical comparing our MP's to rapists and child abusers (even though they are not), now on to it all being the Telegraph's fault."

This goes beyond straw man to downright lies. And you have the hard neck to whine about politicians' dishonesty. Hypocrite!
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The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 22:15:00
#195 Electric Hermit

Telegraph now saying that Nine Cabinet Ministers claimed expenses to hire accountants to help them organise their expenses claims and tax forms.

Should they suppress that information?

and if so, why?
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24/05/2009 22:15:01
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 22:16:16
190
GM

"Perhaps I should set up a blog though, in defence of MP's claims..."

That would certainly be another way of making a complete fool of yourself.
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24/05/2009 22:17:31
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24/05/2009 22:21:16
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 22:21:21
200
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"Should they suppress that information?"

What a daft suggestion. Lack of transparency has been a large part of the problem. Why would you want to encourage it?
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GM,

24/05/2009 22:22:15
@197

so I see you can't make a contribution without name-calling and abuse.
Shame really as it undermines any credibility you might have had.

The Telegraph are a business. Business attempt to maximise profits. Unfortunately or otherwise, newspapers nowadays trade on sensationalism and circulation figures reflect that. The editors *job* is to increase circulation. If he chooses to print *true* stories that are *in the public interest* who are you or I to decide what strategy he adopts to carry out the publication of truth?

I wonder if what you are getting at is censorship of the press?
Is that it?
It certainly reads that way.

now lets compare MP's to the Telegraph -

MP's are not 'a business'
They are public servants unlike the Telegraph

I think those are the only two differences we have to mention to confirm that your continued attacks on the Telegraph in all this mess are as unjustified as they are stupid.
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 22:23:09
201
Best of British

I accept that you are only able to focus on one aspect of any issue at a time. Just don't expect others to adopt such a blinkered attitude.
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24/05/2009 22:24:17
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 22:27:25
206
GM

"...who are you or I to decide what strategy he adopts to carry out the publication of truth?"

I am not one of the sheeple who meekly accepts whatever the media dishes out and never dares or even thinks to question their motives. You will know what you are.
207

Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 22:27:40
No sign of David Marshall's expenses being published??


I wish they'd hurry up!!!
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 22:32:33
206
GM

"I wonder if what you are getting at is censorship of the press?"

Fool! The press is already censored. Or are you really naive enough to imagine the likes of The Telegraph tells us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

The Telegraph is telling us exactly what its proprietors and their clients want us to know in the way that suits their purposes. There are no "White Knights" here. And Santa Claus doesn't exist.
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24/05/2009 22:33:22
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GM,

24/05/2009 22:33:23
@209

Ah well, here we are back to square 1 -


Hermit is intelligent and capable of rational thought and individualism.

We are all 'Sheeple' - a bit dim, stupid and following a 'flock' for the sake of it without question or independent thinking.



Well, Hermit,

here are 2 questions for you -

Did the Telegraph publish lies?
Do the MP's deserve any level of privacy in their expense claims?

*please* try to give a simple yes or no answer to each and *please* no abuse this time.


I, and I think others, might actually believe that its *you* who is the sheep - brainwashed to follow party propaganda, and when the proverbial hits the fan, deny everything and blame everyone and everything else.

After all, thats what you've done all day today. Its been moderately entertaining.
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Jimmy Le Pie,

24/05/2009 22:34:59
I see Mrs Jacqui Smith, 2nd Home Secretary, gave her husband Mr Jacqui Smith a £250 I-phone (presumably to watch is porn films on 24/7!) as a thank you present.

Of course we, the taxpayers actually paid for it!

I thought that was very nice of us!!!
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24/05/2009 22:40:53
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 22:53:27
213
GM

"We are all 'Sheeple' - a bit dim, stupid and following a 'flock' for the sake of it without question or independent thinking."

If the shoe fits...

"Did the Telegraph publish lies?"

I haven't suggested any such thing. But even the truth can be manipulated to create a particular impression. It is called propaganda. Thoughtful people question not only the accuracy of what they are told, but also the manner in which the information is presented.

"Do the MP's deserve any level of privacy in their expense claims?"

A case could be made. But I wouldn't be the one making it. Only complete transparency will suffice.

"I, and I think others, might actually believe that its *you* who is the sheep - brainwashed to follow party propaganda..."

What party? What propaganda?

"...deny everything and blame everyone and everything else."

That's you listening to the voices in your head. I can't be answerable for your imaginings.

Several posters here have commented on the way The Telegraph is orchestrating the release of information. More than a few have been critical of the hysterical over-reaction and hypocritical self-righteous cant that characterises much of the discussion around the issue. If I, and others, can see aspects and facets of this issue that you are blind to, that is your failing, not ours.
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Vivas,

Edinburgh 24/05/2009 23:06:50
#214 Jimmy .. it would have to be an (ahem) "hands free" device for Mr. Smith.
215

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 23:08:14
217
Vivas

".. it would have to be an (ahem) "hands free" device for Mr. Smith."

Ouch! :¬D

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The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 23:13:17
#216
Electric Hermit

If you are all for transparency, why are you criticising the Telegraph for revealing what Parliament sought to suppress?

If what the Telegraph is saying about Labour MP's is false or impossible to substantiate, they risk being sued.

And if they omit to tell us what the Tory MP's were up to, it is within the power of the Government to redress the balance.

If anything they made a bigger deal of the Tory Moat cleaning and Duck Island, than the rest of the "greedy chancer" type claims put together and for all we know there may be 200 labour MP's who racked up twice and three times as much in claims for frivolous non-essentials.

Therefore my conclusion is that the Telegraph has no intention of bending or manipulating the facts of the matter.

Unless they have Dynamite on Brown up their sleeve and are Blackmailing him with it...which I think unlikely in the extreme.
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 23:23:32
219
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"If you are all for transparency, why are you criticising the Telegraph for revealing what Parliament sought to suppress?"

I'm not. Try ignoring the voices in your head and just read what I have written. When you do, you may realise that what I have criticised is the manner in which the information is being released. Not the fact of it being released.

To be more accurate, I am not so much criticising as questioning. As a general rule I have no problem with media exposés. But I am not foolish enough to believe that there isn't something in it for those doing the exposing.

While it obviously doesn't even occur to some here to query The Telegraph's methods and motives, I always will. I can't even imagine NOT questioning the stuff that is fed to me by the media.
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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 23:27:28
219
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"If what the Telegraph is saying about Labour MP's is false or impossible to substantiate, they risk being sued."

Has someone suggested that it is false? Certainly I have made no such suggestion. But I am not a credulous fool. I do not simply accept everything at face value.

Trust no-one! Question everything! Not bad rules to abide by.
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Sgian Achlais,

24/05/2009 23:29:51
221Electric Hermit, 24/05/2009 23:23:32
219
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"If you are all for transparency, why are you criticising the Telegraph for revealing what Parliament sought to suppress?"

I'm not. Try ignoring the voices in your head and just read what I have written. When you do, you may realise that what I have criticised is the manner in which the information is being released. Not the fact of it being released.

=====================================

If Labour has not committed such massive volumes of sleaze then spent years trying to suppress the information the telegraph could not be able to print it.

Lets be clear some newspapers not, so far away right now, have been known in the past, present and future (and if they have a future)to continue to support their political preference to the point of deference.

I cannot recall you complaining about unbiased reporting on here in the past.

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The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 23:32:23
#220
Labour lies

After checking out Dantes Inferno, it seems he has a second home reserved for the lot of them.

http://tinyurl.com/p36okm

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Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 23:33:17
219
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"And if they omit to tell us what the Tory MP's were up to, it is within the power of the Government to redress the balance."

I haven't seen anything to persuade me that The Telegraph is being overtly partisan. As I see it, revelations about Tories have been notable for their ludicrousness, while revelations about the party in power are always going to be regarded as having more news value just because they are the party in power.

As I have stated more than once, I do not see this as a party political issue. That some people want to misrepresent it as such is just one aspect of the distorting hype surrounding the whole affair.
222

GM,

24/05/2009 23:39:31
We should all really stop wasting our time, after all -

1 - its the voices in our heads
2 - we are all sheeple
3 - only electric blanket has the wherewithall to pass valid comment
4 - we are all 'fools'
5 - the press (for some unknown reason to sheeple) actually spin the release of information to suit their circulation
6 - we are all politically motivated whereas Electric AM2 is far too wise for that
7 - its all just hype, nothing to see here, move along, move along



I prostrate myself at your feet Electric Kettle - oh to have your insight, intelligence and propensity to dish out abuse to those who seem intellectually inferior!

What a piece of work you are - no really, its been very illuminating having this debate.
223

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 23:40:16
219
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"Therefore my conclusion is that the Telegraph has no intention of bending or manipulating the facts of the matter."

You really do have a serious comprehension problem. I haven't seen any suggestion that The Telegraph is "bending or manipulating the facts". As I have explained repeatedly and in terms accessible to your average six-year old, it is the manner in which the facts are being presented which leads me to be suspicious of the publisher's motives.

But I have abandoned all hope of you ever understanding this distinction. It seems to suit you to believe the first and simplest version of things that pops into your head. That is your problem, not mine.
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GM,

24/05/2009 23:42:35
I might actually have it sussed -

AMElectricCarvingKnife2 works for The Scotsman and is foamy mouthed with envy at the old fashioned 'scoop' the Telegraph has run.


nope,
sorry,
how could I be so foolish

If the Scotsman had been sent the list of expenses they would have published a 10 page damning indictment for purchase of toblerones by SNP members and shredded the rest.
225

Sgian Achlais,

24/05/2009 23:44:02
It is laughable to blame a political parties enemies in the media for reporting that they are corrupt when they are evidently up to the necks in scandals daily.

The current labour party are a disgrace to the socialist movement. I have no real problem with the Labour parties manifesto's over the years.

I have a problem with the constant failure to deliver what they claim to be about. In Scotland more than anywhere the Labour party machine has been lining its collective pockets at the expense and to the detriment of the public.

All those with an invitation to trough like good little piggies justify the excesses and waffle and spin the sound bites but they have done nothing for the constituents they represent.

Easy guide

Look where Labour do well with big majorities. Look at the conditions that the loyal support survive in.

With a massive majority in parliament they could have achieved anything they wanted. They could have improved things for the workers and normal families.

Instead they spend billions on illegal wars for oil interests in Iraq, supported friends in Nuclear industry, put the population under surveillance and tried to introduce Id cards,

Lost all our details, sold most of the gold at rock bottom prices.....oh yeh, And bankrupted the country in all but name.

Prudence & Socialism

226

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 23:44:06
223
Sgian Achlais

"If Labour has not committed such massive volumes of sleaze..."

This is not a party political issue. Why do you insist on misrepresenting it as such?
227

GM,

24/05/2009 23:44:45
@229

yup, we are all the ones with 'problems' mate - what a completely arrogant person you truly are.

Honestly, if you told me you were an MP I couldn't be *less* surprised.
228

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 23:47:29
226
Labour lies

"It was BOTOB\Yeah 1\Electric Helmet who was banging on about there has been no proven criminal intention by our fine upstanding (Labour) MP’s."

Actually, it was an article in The Times which pointed out that it would be extremely difficult to prove criminal fraud. I have posted a link to the article twice. If you had bothered to read it you might not be so obviously ill-informed.
229

Sgian Achlais,

24/05/2009 23:48:15
New Labour under Brown will be the first documented occurrence of "Spinning in the Grave" after the coming election wipe out.

They will blame everyone but themselves. They will claim they were innocent of a stitch up.

Ask any prison warden....That is what all the crooks say!
230

GM,

24/05/2009 23:49:50
@233

still no real comprehension on your part - or perhaps there is but denial denial denial is all you know -


If someone had published lists of Tories spunking taxpayers money on coke and prostitutes we would have shrugged and said - 'same old'...


but its *labour* my friend.
Yes *labour* - the working mans party, with a left leaning outlook of socialism and sharing the wealth.
*That* is why they are being picked out for so much ridicule and abuse. The expenses scandal for labour is more abhorrent to their own supporters and traditional core voters than the tories.

Can you at least acknowledge the damage is worse for them?
231

Sgian Achlais,

24/05/2009 23:51:15
211Electric Hermit, 24/05/2009 22:32:33
206
GM

..... There are no "White Knights" here. And Santa Claus doesn't exist.

=======================

Are you sure BLOCKEM & BOTOB are not either White Knight or Grand Wizards.
232

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 23:52:49
232
Sgian Achlais

"It is laughable to blame a political parties enemies in the media for reporting that they are corrupt when they are evidently up to the necks in scandals daily."

This is not a party political issue. The allowances and expenses scheme was the same for all MPs. It was the product of at least forty years of inept tinkering, at the very least, by governments of all hues.
233

GM,

24/05/2009 23:53:54
@229

perhaps you could actually explain in detail what you mean by 'the manner in which the facts are being presented' by the Telegraph and we would all have a better understanding of what you are trying to say.

Surely even one so arrogant as yourself can see you are failing to get your message across - and despite all your abuse, I can guarantee, I and others here are not intellectually bereft or have the political understanding of 6 year olds.

I am genuinely interested to know what you think the Telegraph have done wrong.
234

GM,

24/05/2009 23:56:33
@239
"This is not a party political issue. The allowances and expenses scheme was the same for all MPs. It was the product of at least forty years of inept tinkering, at the very least, by governments of all hues."

so why do you think any of the MP's involved in this scandal are not to blame, but rather its the system and a rather unfortunate list of facts being presented daily in the media?
235

Electric Hermit,

24/05/2009 23:57:41
234
GM

"Honestly, if you told me you were an MP I couldn't be *less* surprised."

I don't for a moment doubt your capacity to imagine any kind of deranged nonsense. Or that it becomes fact in your wee mind the very instant you imagine it. Poor soul!
236

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/05/2009 23:58:06
229
Electric Hermit

It's not my lucky day, is it? Er, Bel Paese?
237

Sgian Achlais,

24/05/2009 23:58:06
239Electric Hermit, 24/05/2009 23:52:49
232
Sgian Achlais

"It is laughable to blame a political parties enemies in the media for reporting that they are corrupt when they are evidently up to the necks in scandals daily."

This is not a party political issue. The allowances and expenses scheme was the same for all MPs. It was the product of at least forty years of inept tinkering, at the very least, by governments of all hues.

==============================

Good then we agree it is the fault of Westminster and the problems of corruption, sleaze and troughing are endemic or should that be epidemic of Westminster politics and the best way to rid ourselves of this would be to return to self government and use a better system in Scotland.

See you at the Independence Party in 2011.





238

Sgian Achlais,

25/05/2009 00:02:03
If an MP was to be caught shof lifting in Tesco's for items costing less than £20. That MP would be sacked.

Nobody would be blaming the system of security measures in Tesco's.

We expect our representitives to act in our interest. Not to fleece the taxpayer.

They are our representatives not our rules or lords.

If they did not know it was wrong then we have an even bigger problem with the political elite in the UK that we think.


239

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 00:05:40
240
GM

"I am genuinely interested to know what you think the Telegraph have done wrong."

This remark proves that you have either failed to read or failed to comprehend the explanations I have already given. Understand that this is your failure, not mine. There is nothing complicated or arcane about the idea of questioning the methods and motives of the media.

I am actually quite dismayed that so many people who claim to be neither "intellectually bereft" nor politically immature nonetheless show such reluctance (or inability) to challenge the media messages being presented to them.
240

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/05/2009 00:05:48
Electric Hermit

Labour facts...next to the checkout?

Tory facts...on the Top shelf?

You are seeing things that are simply not there or being deliberately obtuse...in order to accuse others of being intellectually challenged.

Well, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to shoot you!
241

GM,

25/05/2009 00:06:23
@242

EH,

I really am going to give up on you.
I could go back through my posts and questions to you but all I have received in return is abuse and name-calling.

Somehow you think its me who has little capacity for rational thought and debate, despite all the side-stepping you've done and abuse you have dished out. I'll leave those who have read, will read and some who have followed this thread to decide for themselves whose stance is based on a firmer grasp of the situation with respect to MP's expenses, and the logical conclusions derived from it.

Perhaps I will look back in the morning to see if you have decided to respond to any of my questions with an honest answer... and despite asking, oh at least 7 or 8 times, without abuse.
242

GM,

25/05/2009 00:13:14
@247

no EH,
I fully understand why we should not accept what the media prints at face value. Christ, I read the Scotsman online and know only too well that a shovel of salt is required when reading any political story here.

What I am asking you is **what you think the Telegraph have done wrong on this occasion** - spell it out for me.

To help you see my point of view here is my explanation of how I feel the Telegraph have acted -

1 - They receive the full unadulterated list of MP's expenses for the last 'x' years
2 - this information has been fought tooth and nail to get and was only going to be released in an edited version, despite the best efforts of our own MP's
3 - they print selective parts of those claims over several weeks to keep interest, circulation, management and shareholders happy
4 - they don't appear to me to have been politically partisan in any way shape or form and in fact, more tory heads have fallen than labour

I truly do not see on this occasion what their hidden agenda or collateral motive might be

They got a good old fashioned scoop and are milking it to make money - which in case you hadn't forgotten is what newspapers are still all trying to do.
243

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 00:13:58
241
GM

"so why do you think any of the MP's involved in this scandal are not to blame..."

You are an evident idiot and so totally unqualified to represent my views as well as incapable of doing so honestly.

MPs are adults and responsible for there own actions. It takes a dullard like you to suggest otherwise. And it takes a dullard like you to fail to see that the expenses system is ALSO part of the problem.

That's two things. MP's conduct AND a system so flawed that it actually encouraged abuse. Two things! Two separate but related things. Only two! See if you can hold both in your head at the same time. Even just for a moment.
244

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/05/2009 00:17:37
249
GM,

I don't know about you.

But I am utterly convinced that Salmond has eaten 367 hamsters, the SNP have reneged on 10,000 promises, failed 17million families at least a dozen times and betray every last one of their voters half a dozen times a week.

I know all this is true because I read it in the Scotsman / SoS.
245

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 00:21:20
237
GM

"If someone had published lists of Tories spunking taxpayers money on coke and prostitutes we would have shrugged and said - 'same old'..."

You might. I certainly would not. Thus far, the revelations about expenses don't leave either the Tories or Labour with a toe-hold on the moral high ground.

"but its *labour* my friend.
Yes *labour* - the working mans party, with a left leaning outlook of socialism and sharing the wealth."

I live in Scotland. I have never had any illusions about the British Labour Party.
246

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/05/2009 00:25:32
#253 Electric Hermit - "I live in Scotland. I have never had any illusions about the British Labour Party."

You some kind of anti-English racist?
247

GM,

25/05/2009 00:26:35
@252

you know what count, thats all true but its bedtime for me.

I am just a bit tired of EH's nonstop abuse -
I've tried my very best to hold back but now I don't really care - hes just an apologist p *ri ck who has done nothing much more than pompously a r#se around on this thread like a strutting peacock and arrogantly dish out abuse to those he clearly feels are beneath his level, whilst at the same time attempt in a very poorly thought out way to portray the media and 'the system' as at fault for our greedy b'stard MP's own personal abuses.

I'm not going to waste any more time on a 'dullard', idiot, fool like him.

night!
248

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 00:32:51
244
Sgian Achlais

"Good then we agree it is the fault of Westminster and the problems of corruption, sleaze and troughing are endemic or should that be epidemic of Westminster politics..."

While eschewing the purple prose, I have been saying all along that it is a Westminster issue, rather than a party political matter. I have also been critical of those who take a partisan stance.

My view is that in order to effectively deal with an issue it is necessary first to properly understand it. The hot air, hype and hysteria surrounding the expenses issue is a serious impediment to such understanding and, therefore, to rectifying the problems.

"...and the best way to rid ourselves of this would be to return to self government and use a better system in Scotland."

I have actively campaigned and consistently voted for independence for nearly half a century. I hardly need you to preach at me.
249

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 00:39:14
246
Labour lies

"You are partially right..."

You still haven't got it, have you? Don't dispute the matter with me. Take it up with the author of the article you so assiduously avoided reading. His name is Robert Wardle. He is a consultant with the law firm DLA Piper and a former director of the Serious Fraud Office.

I'm sure he'll be interested to know your qualifications.
250

FerryPort,

25/05/2009 00:41:48
"Jenkin, a former Tory deputy chairman, has been allowed until this August to pay his wife's older sister Mary Fraser, who lives at Moniack Castle near Inverness, using his second home allowance"

Oh my god! Have any of you visited Moniack Wine? I think almost defo I've been on a guide by this sister.
She wore a head scarf and an old fashioned day coat, told us there was only so much we could see whilst supporting the redest viened nose possible.
The only other member of staff was a tattered kilted marbled mouth gent who showed us into the drinking room. They drew sap from trees to make wine, which Queen Vic had drunk to avert baldness.
Unfortunately our kids got to the drinking room before us. Full of minature samples of the produce on shiny siver trays. Unsupervised, they were quite drunk.
251

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 00:43:53
250
GM

"What I am asking you is **what you think the Telegraph have done wrong on this occasion**"

I haven't said The Telegraph has done anything wrong. I seem to remember telling you before that I cannot be answerable for the strange things conjured from your imagination.
252

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 00:45:37
250
GM

"I truly do not see on this occasion what their hidden agenda or collateral motive might be"

I believe you.
253

Electric Hermit,

25/05/2009 00:52:19
255
GM

"...'the system' as at fault..."

If it is any comfort, you are far from being the only shallow-minded fool who imagines there is nothing wrong with the MP's allowances and expenses system. Fortunately, wiser heads prevail and when the Angry Villagers get bored and go home we will hopefully see some meaningful reform of the system you think is OK.
254

hoblar,

25/05/2009 09:53:24
Q) How would you vote if a general election were held tomorrow?

SNP - ....................32%
Labour - ................20%
Conservative - ........8%
Lib/Dem - ................8%
Green - ...................2%
Others - ..................4%
Will not Vote - ......25%

From Mail on Sunday.

This is Scottish voting preferences, and they are the ones that matter, I am not interested in the England votes merry go round between the red and blue tories.

I don't want to 'reform' westminster, merely remove this place from the Scotland equation, and that is vital for Scotland to progress and prosper in the long term, and the Scottish public, in spite of the media flogging their dead horses are coming around to how our families are best served.
255

puskas,

East kilbride 30/05/2009 10:54:12
Round them up .. Speaker leading the way chained as the other. Scotland Yard is not far away from Westminster ... A record for a Gonga....

All rotten tomatoes can be found free at the fruit market used as the criminals do the long walk
256

puskas,

East kilbride 30/05/2009 11:32:49
No262, hoblar,




"So right."
257

nostress,

grangemouth 21/06/2009 21:31:16
"I do not agree with the argument that I'm a better MP than you, because I'm a cheaper MP. I've been 17-years an MP and I've worked my butt off. At the end of the day I don't think that £64,000 is a lot of money."

Bejasus and gommorah...that's a lie for a start! Have you seen the size of Connarty's butt? Doesn't look like he's been working that much at all if you ask me. As for thinking £64,000 isn't a lot of money? Well, maybe not in your corrupt little world Mikey, but I reckon 80% or so of your constituents might just disagree with you there. Especially, when you take into account the £600,000 odd you've managed to claim on expenses over the past 4 years. Now, that's serious dosh Michael!

 

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