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1

Vivas,

Edinburgh 08/03/2009 00:22:40
..."poured", "soared", "gold-plated" ... did I just stumble into the Daily Mail by mistake ?
2

Fifi la Bonbon,

08/03/2009 00:34:56
Another story planted by The Tax Payers Alliance, a Tory and rich persons' front organisation which has as its mission the provision of ready made stories for lazy newspaper reporters.

Local government workers are mostly on the £15000 to 30000 pa paybands. They're the people who staff your libraries, empty your bins, collect your rent and council tax, administer your rent and council tax rebates if you're entitled to them, dish out your school meals, wipe your bum if you need it at home, register your births, marriages and deaths, teach your children, drive people to and from day care centres, track down illegal money lenders, stop restaurants, food stores and carry-outs from killing you with salmonella and the like, supervise criminals on community service, keep tabs on sex offenders, fill in potholes on the roads, teach your children, run municipal cemeteries and crematoria, maintain street lights, arrange fostering and adoption, install adaptations to your house if you're disabled, run nurseries, clear up graffiti, run the planning system, run licensing, administer district courts, and quite a few other things as well. Including reseach answers to stupid Freedom of Information Act questions from lazy reporters.

They have to do this at the whim of elected councillors and quixotic chief officers, and they have to try to be nice to the public who despise them.

And apparently they get to retire on pensions which average about £6000 a year. The rotters.
3

Soosider,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 00:35:50
Your story does not match the headline, there is no blackhole. You also misrepresent the true position, contributions paid by employers are part of current employees pay and conditions, that money is invested to raise the money to pay pensions in the future. The fund managers administer some of the best run pension schemes in the country and although are concerened by recent economic situation are confident that only if the investments that support the current paying of pensions continues at its present level for three or more years will there be cause for serious concern.
I am sorry but your story is nothing more than the rehash of an old familer story, one that does not actually exist.
Perhaps the real question you could be asking is why all workers do not have a good stable pension fund.
4

Fifi la Bonbon,

08/03/2009 00:40:04
I can guarantee that no newspaper reporter will ever do an expose on the Tax Payers Alliance. If that august body, funded out of the pockets of tax evading billionaires, ever went out of business, newspaper reporters would have to get out of the pubs and do some work.

If any newspaper reporter thinks that's unfair, then how do they think people working in the public sector feel readng all the ballix you shovel about them?
5

Fifi la Bonbon,

08/03/2009 00:47:27
I could go on about this all night. Does anyone read the Murdoch papers? I do, and this attack on public sector workers and their amazing pensions is a common theme. Even the NY Daily Post is attacking pay and pension levels for the NYPD and NYFD, dozens of who gave their lives on 9/11. And the viciousness of the attack on British public servants is no less. The Scotsman and Scotland on Sunday should be ashamed for having common cause with such filth.
6

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 08/03/2009 00:53:31
I agree with the comments above they at least put unfounded claims into perspective. Its a great name and reminiscent of the way that East Germany used to call itself democratic. An investigation into the 'taxpayers' alliance would be interesting - particularly to check if, and how many of its backers are really 'taxpayers'.
7

Arthur G,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 01:09:56
#2 fifi

The only criticism of your otherwise excellent and in my opinion accurate post is the wage bands of Civil Servants. Many are on below £15,000 admin officer, for example start at £14,700. It takes years to reach the final spinal point of this scale and even then an AO will earn under £18,000. The pension with the low conts amounts to, as you say, aroun £6,000 pa.

One could of course make much higher contributions but these prove mostly prohibitive to these lowly paid workers who have to live, pay rent/mortgages eat, heat their homes and get to and from work and do everything else tha any other wage earner has to but without the in -built contract advantages, that say,Sir Fred Goodwin has in his 'package.

One may well say, that, the civil servants don't have to make the decisions and take the risks that SFG had to and are paid accordingly but judging by his record, SFG should receive nothing and possibly should be jailed (along with Blair and Brown) and the hard working Civil Servants rewarded.

Unfortunately, in our society, inthis age the old adage of:"Freedom for the guilty; punishment for the innocent and rewards for the non-participants" seems to wring, wholly, true.
8

The Answer,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 01:14:36
" About £1 in every £5 raised by council tax north of the border is now spent boosting the pensions of local authority staff "

£539 million used from council tax to bail out public sector pensions(which exclude teachers and firefighters)!!!

£539 million x 5 = £2695 million

yet only

£1800 million council tax is actualy raised.
9

Fifi la Bonbon,

08/03/2009 01:38:39
#6 - I think it is very likely that the financial backers of the Tax Payers Alliance do their very very best to make sure that they aren't tax payers at all.

#7 - good points - I was including the wide range of local government officials in my reference to pay scales. A social worker, with a first degree and mandatory post graduate qualification, can earn over £30,000; but a home help, and they outnumber social workers by a factor of twenty, will be on £7 per hour (plus free uniform).

#8 - the figures will have been produced by the Tax Payers Alliance. You don't expect a newspaper reporter to actually check that he's being told the truth by the Tax Payers Alliance?
10

Ashley Thomson,

08/03/2009 01:49:29
the so-called Tax Payers Alliance, exactly who are they democratically accountable to ? who funds them ? who on the far-right are they linked to politically ? What salaries are paid to their staff?

can we get a journalist to investigate that instead of publishing a lazy piece on local govt pensions. The average pension of a local govy. worker is still below £5,000 a year. hardly a retirement in luxury is it.
11

The Answer,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 01:51:22
"In 2006/07, the Scottish Government was responsible for £29.9 billion of identifiable public expenditure in Scotland but with local authorities only collected approximately £3.6 billion of total revenues through council tax and non-domestic rates "

Scottish Government Publications:



tinyurl.com/clu4c3

12

madrab,

Edinburgh 08/03/2009 02:39:15
Perhaps a real journalist will investigate why Eddie Barnes allowed this piece to be printed today?

What motives did he have to do so?

Has he any links to the shady Taxpayers' Alliance?

Did he investigate their claims before putting them to print?
13

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 08/03/2009 04:52:34
Here's another:
"Tumbling stock market values mean councils are having to find an extra £20m every year for the next three years to top up the final salary pensions of councillors and local government staff."

3 x £20m = £60m, not £600m

Looks like the Hootsman journalists are lacking in the "3R's"

Reliability, honest Reporting, - och, I can't be bothered!
14

Fifi la Bonbon,

08/03/2009 05:38:40
The TaxPayers' Alliance is a tremendously successful campaign group and a blessing to all lazy reporters everywhere. Barely a day goes by without one of their spokesdroids appearing in the media, representing the views of "ordinary taxpayers".

In fact never a day goes by: the Alliance boasts an average hit rate of 13 media appearances a day and puts the links on its website to prove it.

The problem is that it isn't an alliance of ordinary taxpayers at all. It is an alliance of right-wing ideologues.

Its academic advisory council is a who's who of the proponents of discredited Thatcherite policies: Eamonn Butler and Marsden Pirie of the Adam Smith Institute, academics Patrick Minford and Kenneth Minogue, Margaret Thatcher's former economic advisor, the late Sir Alan Walters, and others such as ex-Institute of Directors policy head Ruth Lea.

For an organisation so concerned with transparency, the TaxPayers' Alliance is surprisingly opaque about its own finances. No list of donors is available. It states only that all donations are from private sources and that no single donation accounts for more that 5% of income. But 5% of what? The Alliance's 2006 accounts record an income of £130,000 – up from £68,000 in 2005 – but that seems hardly enough to sustain 10 full-time staff and offices in London and Birmingham.
15

Mallory,

Edinburgh 08/03/2009 06:20:32
Why no comments on the story about the killings of two soldiers? Have opinions, like IRA weaponry, been placed 'beyond use'?
16

madrab,

Edinburgh 08/03/2009 07:14:12
Mallory, that would mean that the editorial staff here would have to sanction the use of the word terrorist to people other than islamic fundamentalists. That would hardly do now, would it?
17

terry osser,

morden 08/03/2009 07:19:58
should revert to money purchase scheme. public sector pensions certainly for young people will not be paid. worst offenders are police--MPs are worse but not many of them--although still far too many
18

terry osser,

morden 08/03/2009 07:20:59
15 tony bliar-a future pope in waiting-single-handedly solved the oirish problem innit
19

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 08/03/2009 07:36:23
It is good that the internet exists.... nasty journalism can be instantly counteracted with Fifi's excellent account of Council workers and their tasks....... Keep up the good work Fifi.....
2009, things are defo different from 1979... stating the bleeding obvious I know, but this instant rebuttal of fake stories is important. RS.
20

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 08/03/2009 07:46:42
Simple Solution:

Change the pension schemes from defined benefit to defined contribution. Like everyone in the Private sector has done.
21

Phil C,

08/03/2009 07:52:55
Ach, that's nothing! Gordo the Magnificent has loads a money.
22

Brideun,

Culloden 08/03/2009 08:11:34
The article certainly touched a nerve. Do I detect a panic within the ranks of the public sector fearing that it shall be subject to the same economic reality as the private sector.
Indefinate job security and an index-linked pension mostly paid by others cannot go on, there are not enough wealth creators to cover the massive expenditure.
23

Soosider,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 08:29:26
very useful information and links, in the posts and regretably not in the article.
"1£ in £5.. of Council Tax.. goes to pensions." As council tax accounts for less than 17% of Councils Budgets, then the £1 in £5 equates to roughly 3% whcih sounds like an absolute bargain.

KampungHighlander
your suggestion is that a very successful and cost effective pension scheme should be changed to a scheme that has in many occasions is proving to be almost useless. I would think better solution would be for those in the private sector to have similiar pension scheme. Are you prepared to have 20% of your income going into a pension scheme?
24

oh pedeStriaN laP sheep (anag),

08/03/2009 08:30:23
22

Quite. You missed out that the public sector get paid a higher average wage than the private sector.

Trade unionism has a lot to answer for.
25

TWC,

08/03/2009 09:00:19
This time bomb has been ignored by Govrnment in spite of repeated complaints.
You won't hear this discussed at conferences.
26

penicuik1,

08/03/2009 09:20:35
So who pays for all these teachers and firefighters then if their pensions don't come from the council?
27

The Strategist,

08/03/2009 09:37:43
My own pension fund values have collapsed and the income from my savings is now not worth having.

I see no reason why the private sector should be the only one to suffer the consequences of Brown's incompetence. Councils need to remember we pay for them and if they do use our money to top up their already generous pension schemes then I think we should withhold council tax payment.
28

albanman,

Edinburgh 08/03/2009 09:47:53
Retired teachers receive pensions that are directly funded by the monthly contributions of working teachers. Like all UK employers, the local council pays a contribution each month. However, unlike with some employers, the council does not manage or distribute the pensions.

There is no 'pension pot' as with other defined schemes, which means there is no dependency on investments. By extension, this means no drain on taxpayers/councils when investments perform poorly. So long as there are a sufficient number of active teachers, there will be no problem with retired teachers receiving pensions; so we need to get Scottish parents to keep having babies :)

This may also be the situation with firefighters.
29

Hmm ...,

08/03/2009 09:52:41
... sounds like Fifi has a vested interest! And such scorn for the Taxpayers' Alliance usggests that they are making good points - which should scare public service pension-holders.

What other employers can still indulge the kind of outdated trade union practices that still operate in public bodies like local authorities and Royal Mail?

And just why would tax-evading billionaires donate to the Taxpayers' Alliance; it's not a body that they would benefit from, is it?

And, finally, why shouldn't public service workers live under the same harsh reality as the rest of us - our employers have abandoned final salary schemes, NONE of the schemes are inflation proof, contributions are kept to the absolute minimum since the stock market fell and no one thinks they owe us a living.

The trouble with the public service is that they still don't know what a hard day's work really means, they are increasingly paid ludricrously high wages for what they actually do and they are feather-bedded until retirement and eventual death. No wonder they are worried that an end will be put to this!

I have only vaguely heard about the Taxpayers' Alliance (I am not a supporter but this could change)and just why should people donate theur own money to its work? You can bet your shirt that the government isn't slipping them cash the way they do to left wing and "diversity" groups!
30

Evan Owen,

Uppergumtree 08/03/2009 09:56:12
Looks like public sector workers outnumber the rest of us on here, is it because they have more time on their hands?
31

It's me!,

08/03/2009 09:59:52
The Taxpayers Alliance is an organisation that believes the public purse exists for them to raid. They even believe that the tax and National Insurance contributions taken from employees pay should be kept by them to use. The TA say they are creating jobs but what they are doing is using benefits to help pay employees which means more of the profits are for TA members to pocket. I would have more respect for them if they paid employees fair wages from profits without public funds subsidising their businesses. Then they could say they are true business people creating wealth instead of recycling public funds. It's time the gullible politicians got wise.
32

Hugh Roscombe,

08/03/2009 10:00:12
30

No. It's Sunday. They're not at work.
33

albanman,

08/03/2009 10:02:14
No.27 Strategist: The vast majority of my pension was built up in the private sector workplace. I'm not embarrassed to say that at this time last year my pension fund was 285,000 due to my hard work and the very high pension contributions I made. As of last week, my fund stood at 102,000. I know that this is still a great deal more than most people, but this 102,000 is 37,000 LESS than was contributed.

You and I didn't complain when our pension funds were soaring, so we shouldn't point our guns at those who have defined pensions now that our schemes are sinking. When we invested our pension funds in the stock market it was a risk we took; there is always the option to invest in certificates or bonds, but most of us went for the high stock market performance portfolio. Like in any gamble, we can win or lose.

Like you, the interest from my savings isn't even meeting the rate of inflation. I empathise with you, but it was our gamble and at the moment, we're losing.

34

A Crofter,

Western Isles 08/03/2009 10:10:43
Fifi - So what's wrong with FOI? Are you saying that the public has no right to know how our public servants feather their nests?

Whoever the Taxpayers' Alliance are, many of us are greatly concerned at the growing disparity between the public sector and the rest of society, particularly when it comes to pensions.

When did you last see a serving police officer over the age of 50? You're not likely to, since they all take early retirement (citing "stress") and large numbers debunk to the Highlands and Islands to live out their two-thirds of final salary, index-linked public handouts.

And what about the growing ranks of public workers on salaries well in excess of £30K, including the Stonyrooders, who recently enhanced their own pension pots?
35

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 08/03/2009 10:29:21
The problem is that this is an extremely emotive subject, and gets caught up in right wing/ left wing ideology. Another issue is that very few people realise just how much such a pension costs.

Think about some of the figures. Someone retiring with full service on £20k a year gets a pension of £10k a year with a tax-free lump sum of £30k. All well and good you might think, but a pension at that level requires a pension pot of almost £400k. There are very few people in final salary pension schemes with 25 years or so service whose pension pot isn't worth more than their house.

Now another issue is that much of that £400k is invested in volatile instruments, such as shares. So when funds are revalued every 3 years contribution rates swing wildly. It is very difficult to budget year-on-year when costs vary. Just look at how many organisations, including the public sector had huge problems last year with the cost of fuel because of rapid changes in the price.

Finally I believe it is fundamentally dishonest of the unions to fight so bitterly for these pensions. These pensions will never be paid at the levels promised because they are unaffordable. The government knows that, the unions know that, in fact everybody knows that except for the people expecting the pension. Look at any mass marketing of financial products. They never can and never will live up to the hype once enough people join. You were cheated on private pensions, you were cheated on endowments, you were cheated on property as an investment, you were cheated on umpteen boiler-room investment scams - what on earth makes you think a final salary scheme will be different?

For people more than ten years away from retirement I see two options. Paying out on a percentage of what was promised. Say 60p in the pound. Or easier to justify politically deducting the state pension from your final salary pension payment, instead of paying it on top as at the moment. We already see moves towards this wit
36

The Ayrshire Bard,

08/03/2009 10:30:41
The big problem is not with the rank and file public sector workers, but with the top brass. It is now commonplace for council chief execs to receive in excess of £200k with a whole raft of deputies snapping at his heels with far too many on six figure salaries.
When did you last hear of a council clerk. Everybody now has a title which enables them to jump a long way above their real place in the pecking order. There appears to be no such thing as job evaluation nowadays.
#34 is absolutely correct in the comments about the police pensions. Retiring at 50 is noww unsustainable, particularly as we are all living to a much greater age then those born 20 or 30 years before us.
Personally I can't afford to subsidise top hat pension schemes run by the councils and civil service, but can see the day approach when councils will have no money left for services as they will need it all for their own salaries and pension funds.
37

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 08/03/2009 10:31:37
Getting carried away! Continued:-

We already see moves towards this with the gap between the minimum pension guarantee and the minimum state pension, meaning many small pensions are worthless.

A final thought. Very few people as I said appreciate how much their pension is worth. Very few of them understand their employers contributions. How many do you think would take up the offer if you gave a 12% payrise and scrapped any future entitlement to pension? I reckon over 90% of the workforce would accept.

Don't you think that it would be fundamentally more honest to do that and allow people to provide for their own pension than treat the workers as a political football knowing both sides are misleading them?
38

W Smith,

Middle East 08/03/2009 11:07:22
So the spongers in Scotlands Public Sector would have us believe that anyone who complains is a 'right wing' Daily Mail reader.

TOO FRIGGIN BAD!

This is actually old news.

Some Scots in the private sector, who are more likely to lose their jobs, are sick of being bled dry by work shy council workers, social workers and jobs-for-the-boys socialists employed by the local(usually Labour controlled) councils.

Lets get the Tories back in pronto seeing the SNP are not up to the task.

BTW
Mr Salmonds silence on Scotlands bloated public sector suggests he is not the man to lead Scotland to independence - UNLESS YOU WANT A FAILED STATE, CUBAN STYLE, ON YOUR HANDS.

Our Alex can quote communist MacDiarmind all he likes but Moira Salmonds over-generous pension is funded by first world capitalism and nothing to do with third world Mugabe style communism.
39

The Strategist,

08/03/2009 12:09:06
The commissariat seems intent on spending even more of our money.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7931168.stm
40

Rob,

08/03/2009 12:27:31
#36. I agree - your actual council worker and clerk is not the problem. But there's no place to work like the public service - higher salaries, longer holidays, tax funded pensions, contolled working hours etc etc etc.

The Public Sector cherry picked some practices that would suit them from the private sector - like performance pay (without performance targets) and bonuses (which accrue pension rights in the public sector but don't in the private side). There is no management of substance anywhere and the fat cats are just that - but extra fat.

It is bound to be worse for Scotland as we have a higher percentage of workers in the public sector - 1 in 4 compared to 1 in 5 for UK overall. What needs to happpen is final pension scheme capping - accrue a pot for up to, (say) £30K per annum which gives a £20k a year pension as maximum. If any employee gets above that level then they have to top it up themselves with money purchase. That gives every reasonable person a decent pension and allows the fat cats to have even bigger ones if they pay for it themselves. Whether they do or not should not be a concern for their employers.

41

Observer,,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 12:41:50
Higher pensions for public sector workers is a myth, a right wing myth, that brings the right wing looneys out to play, guartanteed. The real issue about pensions is the variance between those at the bottom of the entitlement scale, and those at the top. But hey, why bother about that (after all it would entail a redistribution of wealth to resolve it) when fellow workers can have a go at each other because some are called private and some are called public. Divide and rule anyone ?
42

jkr,

Lochwinnoch Greater Glasgow 08/03/2009 12:50:11
I do not think councillors get a pension, do they?
43

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 08/03/2009 12:55:59
#23 Soosider

I am currently saving 30% of my after tax income so that I will be able to retire in the same style of life that I currently enjoy.

This assertion that public pensions are outperforming the privately managed ones is complete nonsense.

They however do have the advantage of being able to get the Government to make up for any shortfalls.

Something the rest of us in the real world don't have.

44

Observer,,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 13:03:03
43 Ah - the real world. So in the real world children don't get taught, old people don't have home helps, bins don't get emptied, houses don't get let, libraries don't exist, no-one uses the NHS, there is no need for Police, and houses don't go on fire. That's the real world right ?
45

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 08/03/2009 13:26:58
#42 They do now. They are in the local authority scheme the same as all other local authority employees.
46

Soosider,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 13:28:05
#43
At no point did I say public pensions were outperforming private ones, what I said was that they were managed properly. Carefully, steadily, cautiously prudently, a bit like the banks used to do.
If you are putting 30% of your earnings into a pension fund then the only problem you would have is if the pension fund was not managed as above, or heavens forbid if the markets should collapse. Even then it would depend on the balance of your portofolio, as even with the present economic position if the portofolio was properly based then it should be several years before any lasting damage is done to you actual pension.
Lastly it is a myth that local government pensions are gold plated, they are prudently managed, at no point will they be bailed out by local government. It is a common mis understanding that pension payments now by both employer and employee go straight to pay pensioners, they do not, money currently contributed is to build up the pension fund.
I believe the real issue is why does everyone not have pension schemes similiar to many local government ones, it is not to do with the amount being paid in it is to do with how they are managed. It is to do withthese fund managers not falling for the exesses encouraged by previous governments both tory and labour, it is to do with fund managers and emplyers refusing to take the short term advantages of payment holidays.
I would suggets that there is need for real debate on the overall condition of pension provision in this country however I do not think this is progressed by unfounded and ill informed attacks on a part of the pension industry that is working fairly well
47

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 08/03/2009 14:04:04
#46 Soosider

There are some inaccuracies there. The main difference between private and public sector schemes are not the prudence of the managers. The managers of both have been capable of quite spectacular failings. However the local authorities always bail out their schemes. The contribution rate is set every three years, in part to fund the deficit in the scheme, and in part to cover the additional liabilities accruing over the next timescale. That is a big part of the problem. If they have budgeted for 10% contributions and suddenly have to find an extra 3% or so it can be devastating to an already tight budget. It doesn't come down if the stockmarket recovers either. It stays there for 3 years.

There are different schemes in the public sector. The local authority one is as you describe, but others, like the NHS one for instance are not funded at all. So contributions do go directly to current pensioners rather than being saved for that person's future. So a pensioner there on £20k does retire, sometimes at 55, with a promise from the state of something which could be worth half a million pounds.
48

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 08/03/2009 14:25:15
#32 Observer

I live in Jakarta, I am self employed.

"So in the real world children don't get taught", yes, but their parents pay for it.

"old people don't have home helps" yes, but they pay for it.

"bins don't get emptied," yes, but you pay the man who collects it.

"houses don't get let," yes, put by private landlords.

"libraries don't exist," Not in Jakarta

"no-one uses the NHS," No NHS here

"there is no need for Police" yes, but you pay them too, just like the bin man.

"houses don't go on fire" They do, and frequently burning down hundreds of homes at a time, the fire service invariably turns up to put out the ashes.

"That's the real world right?"

Far more many people on this planet live in the "Developing World" than in the "Developed" one.

The real world is the place where there is no free lunch.

It is nice being able to afford top class public services, but the reality is that a lot of the services that the post war generations have enjoyed have been built on the demographic bubble of the baby-boom and rising government debt.

At the end of the day someone has to pay.

The baby-boom generation is retiring and these deficits will have to be repaid.

Do you thinks its fair if current generations enjoy lavish public services, but their children and grandchildren are forced to foot the unsupportable weight?
49

Balliol II,

Dunbar 08/03/2009 14:30:40
For once comments on this subject are many of them better informed than usual. However there is confusion between different parts of the public sector. Local government officers are not civil servants, and they and their employing authority contribute to their pensions. (I paid 8% and my employers some 6%.) This cannot have been enough to pay for my part of the pension fund.
Civil servants have non-contributory pension schemes for which allowance is theoretically made in their pay scales.
What should be done, and should have been done years ago, is to recalculate the contributions, whether actual or real, so that they cover more of the cost. Allowance must also be made for longer lives.
50

Observer,,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 14:55:45
48 If you want to live in a Thatcherite society where access to services is based on ability to pay them fair do's. But most people in Scotland don't agree with that. This is a routine diversionary tactic which is dragged out from time to time by the right wing. Compared to the money being spent by the Treasury to bsil out the banking system and fund pay-offs for people like Fred Goodwin this stuff is peanuts. But it lets the looney right have a good foaming at the mouth rant.
51

Pattester,

Galashiels 08/03/2009 15:29:02
# 2 Fifi la bon bon & # 7 Arthur G

At last someone who talks a lot of sense of how badly treated wee local council employees are, especially after the recent Single Status so called aggrement. Keep up the good work and let the people know that we are not all on extremely high wages the only one in local authority to get them are the senior directors who don't even know who the worker are, and after reading the Sunday Post today I wish we all had council leader like the one in Glasgow who has finally realised that the people at the bottom of the ladder are the ones who are worse off and he has decided that they deserve a wage increase I wish the rest of the council leader were of the same opinion and not how much can we take of the worker.
52

Soosider,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 15:31:46
#47
Thanks for the comments, I appreciate that there are many different schemes in the public sector, but had kept my comments to the Council ones as that is what the article described, I also kept them to schemes within scotland.
As a contributoer to one of these council schemes I am absolutely clear that at no time has the council "bailed out" the pension fund. So I really do not know where you get your information from, a source would be helpful.
However I think my original point is still valid, if the council schemes are so good then why can not all workers have similiar.
I know what the answer is, which is ususally along the lines that private companies would and do actively campaign against principled stands, perhaps this should be directed at organisations such as the CBI or even the Tax Payers Alliance and ask them why tax payers money should be used to bail out the inadequacies of the private sector, after all we have currently committed some £1.3 Trillion to the banks so why can similair provision be made to support people who have worked hard, saved for a pension that they now find to be seriously short of what it could be worth.
53

Observer,,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 15:40:04
52 I'm in the Strathclyde Pension Fund. So are thousands of others. As far as I know we have not been bailed out by anyone and the Fund is healthy, even taking the recession into account. I would think that the SPF (which I have been able to keep on contributing to even while moving through several jobs) could be a model for how pensions could work for everyone.
54

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 08/03/2009 16:07:45
Why can't we comment on the Irish slaughtering our heroes?
55

Goat Boy,

08/03/2009 17:04:30
£600m! What a bargain! What else can you get for £600m these days?

What about a single tram line that runs for a distance of about 20 miles. That's about £30m a mile.
56

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 08/03/2009 17:06:53
#52

At the bottom of the article there is a link to a table giving changes in contribution rates for different local authorities. If a local authority has had to raise its contribution rate from 7-8% of salary to over 20% to meet the deficit in the fund over the last 10 years or so isn't that bailing out the scheme?

Go to the Strathclyde Pension Scheme website and check out the latest annual report (page 34) As at 31/3/08 the fund had assets of 9,555 million and liabilities of 10,740 million. It has a funding level 89% of that needed. Now do you think that the situation has got better or worse in the last year since that report, given there is a recession going on? If you don't think the local authority bails you out who do you think will pay the pensions that deficit represents? Or will you settle for 89% of the pension you expected?
57

Observer,,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 17:19:53
56 But the Strathclyde Pension Fund is big enough to survive the recession. And changes have been brought in to the contributions made and the way it is paid out. We are not being bailed out, so why are you claiming that we are ?
58

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 08/03/2009 17:28:54
What use is a tram system in Ednburgh when the IRA - who were never even made to hand over one bullet - can come and blow it up whenever they want?
59

frank mcbride,

lusitania 08/03/2009 17:31:20
#27, Strategist, and other "aggrieved" persons.

"The people in the public service should remember who pays their wages".

Strategist, and others, who pays your wages, other than the hard-working public.

If you have a problem with your pension rewards, then fight for better conditions. It's your employers you should be railing at, not public servants or their employers.
60

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 08/03/2009 17:31:47
Oh sorry. I forgot. It would be a useful smoke screen for Gordon to escape more bad news Maybe Labour pays them.
61

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 08/03/2009 17:40:17
I think we may be using different definitions of being bailed out! Gordon Broon isn't coming in with his white charger and giving you a couple of billion to fund your deficit. However your employer will have to pay it back over a 3 year period. That will mean less jobs, cuts to services and more services 'outsourced.' That was the point of this whole article, which many people seem to have missed. It has also been my point all along. Local authorities are on pretty fixed budgets and volatile costs play havoc with those. The problem is not the cost of the scheme, but the fact that the cost of the scheme is impossible to plan and budget for. Somehow the employees have to bear some of that risk. Somehow the employer has to convince them of the need to bear that risk.

What did you think of my proposal to offer local authority employees a 12% wage increase and stop accruing any more benefits? I reckon 90% of them would accept that. How many of them do you think would commit 18% of earnings per year (Their current 6% plus the 12% bonus)to a pension?

Pensions are inflexible, risky and very very costly. Given the choice people would not contribute to the level needed to provide the benefits they want, yet they are very happy for their employer to do so. Double standards there don't you think?

Actually I don't think its double standards. I just think political ideology and red mist gets in the way of a reasonable debate on the facts!
62

TWC,

Ex LAbour 08/03/2009 17:57:57
I don't want anybody to lose a pension but where is the money to come from.
Council Pensions will go up fro 1/80th to 1/60th next month and Glasgow will increase the minimum wage by a third therefore the pension pot has to increase to accomodate a step change in accrued pension.
Where is mr Purcell getting the money from?
63

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 08/03/2009 18:21:12
#62

Actually the change from 80ths to 60ths is not really an issue, in fact it shows a slight saving. Raising the wage for public sector workers to £7 has to be a good thing - one way of reducing inequalities is raising the bottom end rather than knocking down the top! Mr Purcell is going to get the money from increasingly hiving work off to the public sector and reducing his headcount. Isn't Glasgow pursuing that anyway?

64

,

08/03/2009 18:23:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
65

ThePeter,

Glasgae 08/03/2009 18:25:49
Gosh, I love the way that all the public sector apparchiks have gotten into this to support it
Some of them have salaries of £30,000
I would love to have that problem....

Instead I'm paying for them to have their cake and eat it.

Come the revolution they might actually have to work for a living....
66

Arthur G,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 18:30:50
#62 Purcell is trying to get the money by stealing the ideas and wotk of local trust groups who have for years been putting to gether plans and making partnerships with, for example, power companies, in order to build the likes of a mini windfarm (like the one planned for Cathkin Braes with the profits to be ploughed back into the Castlemilk and Carmunnock communities) . Purcell's mob then come in and try to squeeze out the local group and set up their own alternative. The GCC is a perfect exemplar of the 'West of Scotland Labour Establishment' corrupt and sectarian to its core. It is also the perfect example of why this lot must be flushed down the toilet of history.
67

Arthur G,

Glasgow 08/03/2009 18:35:18
# If you read the posts, presuming you are capable, rather than merely making snide comments you would realiser that most civil servants ear well under £20k a year.

I'm not a civil servant, I work for myself, I fund my own pension. Nevertheless, I know a lot of pretty poor civil servants. The CS and the unemployed are always the first and easiest targets for corrupt and failing governemnts in times of economic upheaval.

68

Busymale,

I'm alright Jack! 08/03/2009 20:58:49
Isn't it just plain immoral that as the private sector employees are struggling to hold onto their jobs and pay back debt that the public sector employees continue to live off their sweat when they can least afford it?

Surely there is a clear need to ask people to fund their own pensions rather than look your next door nighbour in the eye and ask them to continue to do it for you.

This is the problem with society - just keep looking after ourselves even if it's immoral, corrupt and lacking in integrity.

PAY YOUR OWN WAY!

69

frank mcbride,

lusitania 08/03/2009 21:14:08
#68, Busymale.

Perhaps you could look at the integrity of Private business - RBS etc, who have no problem paying for the pension pots of "Top Executives" at the expense of the productive workers.

Public pensions are right and just and, if necessary, legislation should be brought in to bring Private pensions into line.

We should all be striving for best practice, not worst.
70

The Strategist,

08/03/2009 23:36:06
#59

Who pays for my pension? I do.
71

Bigwull,

edinburgh 09/04/2009 08:17:50
Should this group not be called the "Tax Avoiders/Evaders Alliance?
68 I pay 10% of my Salary to my pension, the best I can get on retirement is half pay and that only after 40 years service, any earlier my pension is reduced accordingly, hardly gold plated is it? If you want a better pension, fight for it, don't moan/whinge about what others get.
72

Bigwull,

edinburgh 09/04/2009 08:22:55
48 We dont live in the third world you do! Enjoy your evil medieval society

 

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