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Gaza chaos leaves 38 Egyptians in hospital



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Published Date: 27 January 2008
AT LEAST 38 members of the Egyptian security forces were taken to hospital, some in critical condition, as they attempted to restore control over the chaotic frontier with the Gaza Strip.
Egyptian riot police and armoured vehicles restricted Gaza motorists to a small area of Egypt yesterday as cross-border confrontations intensified.

The move came after the border was breached by Hamas militants last week.

Egyptian foreign minis
ter Ahmed Aboul Gheit complained of "provocations" at the border, a thinly veiled reprimand of Hamas, and said that while Egypt is ready to ease the suffering of Gazans, this should not endanger Egyptian lives.

Gheit said up to 12 riot police and 26 border guards, including two senior officers, were in hospital, some in danger of losing their lives, due to "actions by Palestinian elements" since Friday.

"These provocations cause us concern and our Palestinian brothers should note that the Egyptian decision to host them and ease their suffering should not result in threats to the lives of our sons in the Egyptian forces," he said.

In the West Bank, meanwhile, moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas stuck to his tough conditions for resuming contact with Gaza's Hamas rulers, dimming prospects for Egypt's proposal to have the two Palestinian rivals come to Cairo for talks on resolving the border crisis.

Earlier, Hamas had accepted Egypt's proposal, and Hamas hard-liner Sami Abu Zuhri accused Abbas of trying to bypass Hamas. "His statements are a rejection of the Egyptian initiative," Abu Zuhri said.

Abbas reiterated yesterday that he would only talk to Hamas if it retreats from its June takeover of Gaza.

On the Gaza-Egypt border, traffic of cars and pedestrians remained heavy yesterday, four days after Hamas militants blew down the border wall, sending hundreds of thousands of Gazans rushing into Egypt.

In an attempt to restore some control, Egyptian armoured vehicles blocked the main street of the Egyptian border town of Rafah, causing a snarled traffic jam of honking cars filled with Gazans shopping for fuel, food and consumer products.



The full article contains 346 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 January 2008 9:18 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Middle East conflict
 
1

Howie,

Lammermuirs 27/01/2008 00:33:44
Let's face it, this violence by the Palestinians against the Egyptians is not unexpected. This is how the Palestinians have always dealt with their problems. I feel sorry for the Egyptians who have been injured. What a disgusting way to treat the Egyptians after they allowed them into their country to stock up.
2

Lynne,

USA 27/01/2008 01:11:20
That's the way it has always been with the Palestinians. Lets see who they blame for this now. It looks like the Egyptians do not want to be reponsible for them either.
3

Michaela,

Canada 27/01/2008 01:47:23
This violence by the Palestinians towards the Egyptians is clearly a good indicator of how far away these people are from being a civil society.
4

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 27/01/2008 02:03:03
#4 Dragon

Come on now. They are 'starving'. Thats why they bought cigarettes.
5

James Donald,

Praha 27/01/2008 02:21:35
From "The Economist" January 26th 2008 page 37 "The Gaza Strip - Busting the Blocade" -
"The Qassams, which rarely kill but keep over 20,000 Israelis living near Gaza in permanent fear, continue to fall. Israel's collective punishment of the 1.4 million Gazans, and its missile attacks on militants that often kill some civilians too (65 Gazans died in the first three weeks of January), merely draw ever louder ondemnation at home and abroad".
"Sanctions may not work, but they look tough to the Israeli public, and Mr Olmert needs to look tough. Next week a final report on the 2006 Lebanon war is expected once more to be highly critical of his performance, and political rivals are sniffing blood".
6

Wallace MacP,

Alberta 27/01/2008 02:44:08
Dragonhead is right - what exactly was taken into Gaza besides the camels, cows, goats, cigarettes, motorcycles, electronics, etc.? We may soon find out.

For a supposedly 'starving' people they looked pretty healthy to me, certainly healthy enough to beat up on the Egyptian security people. For Pete's sake, aren't these Gaza Palestinians grateful for anything?

What are the camels for? Maybe Hamas is creating a camel cavalry!!!



7

britfree,

camelon 27/01/2008 03:29:58
you stole it .you know you did. every decent person knows you did. you know every decent person knows you did. (rumsfelt moment over,phew)its what drives you into such deafness to what decent people tell you . i dont mean the people you buy like mubarak or the brutalist dahlan but those who see through your bluster to the dark heart of zionism
8

britfree,

camelon 27/01/2008 03:43:39
wallace mac fakey i think that you would prefer to fight starvelings or mabye they could just give in and allow the european invaders that arrived there so recently even easier pickings .your concerted fakeyness like some zionist call centre from hell fools nobody
9

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 27/01/2008 04:30:41
Poor little Brit

So much hate. So many lies.

Yawn
10

Lynne,

USA 27/01/2008 05:28:56
Wallace MacP...the Palestinians have great PR. We all know that many pictures taken in Gaza have been "staged" for the Press. I doubt they used all the electricity and ran out of food so fast from the blockade.
11

Swordsman,

Dublin 27/01/2008 06:25:26
I Find it hilarious that the citizens of the biggest consumer market on the planet (Good ole US of A!)are castigating others for stocking up on goods after being denied basic human rights for weeks!
Doubly funny when you consider that the US have propped up the most odious regime in the last 50 years (outside of S.Africa)and more than contributed to the instability in the Middle East no end..Whoops! there goes my Visa to the beacon of free speech!

12

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 27/01/2008 11:24:01
#13

True, the US has propped us the most odious regime in 50 years.
But Margret Thathcher has been out of office for quite a while now
13

LD,

West Midlands 27/01/2008 11:44:59
I like what Archibald wrote in the other thread. In case some posters miss his or her post, here is the reference: http://news.scotsman.com/world/Egypt-vows-to-fix-Gaza.3706717.jp

"Now Egypt is frantically trying to fill the breaches in the wall while Hamas is bulldozing more breaches. This could get ugly.

Must congratulate Hamas for orchestrating this mass flux of humanity into Egypt, another propaganda coup, particularly when UNWRA and other agencies admit that the Gazans weren't anywhere near starvation and there were plenty stocks of food available and electricity.

There was an article in the Kuwait Times that there were so many Gazans mobbing Egyptian stores that Egyptians actually went into Gaza to buy bread. My, my isn't it amazing how easily propaganda can look like truth."
14

,

27/01/2008 12:26:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

britfree,

camelon 27/01/2008 12:33:05
tikun posts short post brifree claims credit
16

,

27/01/2008 13:47:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

Roberta Burns,

27/01/2008 16:27:23
Sneaky Israeli and US underhand attacks on Egyptians to blame Gazans and grab headlines
18

Dáithí,

San Jose 27/01/2008 18:03:38
#13 - Swordsman

>"I Find it hilarious that the citizens of the biggest consumer market on the planet (Good ole US of A!)are castigating others for stocking up on goods after being denied basic human rights for weeks!"

What are they stocking up on, injured Egyptians?
19

Dáithí,

San Jose 27/01/2008 18:14:08
#13 - Swordsman

>"I Find it hilarious that the citizens of the biggest consumer market on the planet (Good ole US of A!)are castigating others for stocking up on goods after being denied basic human rights for weeks!

And I see that the US, with the biggest consumer market on the planet, are bracing for another wave of Irish immigrants, ready to join!:

http://www.irishabroad.com/Home/Articles/New-Wave-of-Irish-Arriving260108.aspx

Are these Irish immigrants coming to the US because they have had their basic human rights denied?

No, they're just looking for a better deal. It's not about 'denial of basic human rights', it's about getting a better deal. People everywhere do it.
20

lielayer,

27/01/2008 19:16:08
The siege of Gaza has failed

While hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are streaming into Egyptian Rafah and Hosni Mubarak is having trouble reestablishing the border, while Hamas has succeeded in ending the siege of Gaza via a well-planned operation and simultaneously won the sympathy of the world, which has forgotten the rain of Qassam rockets on Sderot, Israel is entrenching itself in positions that look outdated. The prime minister speaks about the need to continue the closure on Gaza, and the cabinet voices its "disappointment" with Egypt - as if there were ever any chance that the Egyptians would work to protect Israeli interests along the Philadelphi route instead of thinking first of all of their own interests.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=948081&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4
21

57Nomad,

california 27/01/2008 20:29:41
We've heard all along that the animus of the Palestinians toward the Israels has to do with a series Israeli depredations wreaked upon them.

What did the Egyptians do to them that cause them to put so many Egyptians in the hospital? Is this a warning to Egypt? Hamas is an arm of the Iranian/Syrian axis. They consider Egypt to be an apostate country. They are opening another front.
22

Dáithí,

San Jose 27/01/2008 20:33:40
#22 -

>"The siege of Gaza has failed"

Looks like the siege of Egypt has taken its place. This time, the occupying army are Palestinians.
23

Dáithí,

San Jose 27/01/2008 20:39:20
FREE OCCUPIED EGYPT!!

News Item:

Egypt has repulsed the first wave of Palestinian occupiers! Over 38 Egyptians have been injured fighting off the first wave of the attackers!

Brave Egyptians have been trying to fortify the wall from the Palestinian invaders, but they continue to breach the wall.

We demand compensation for the 'Egypt 38'! As we speak, brave Egyptian protesters are descending on the UN and demanding an impartial investigation of the human rights violations caused by the invading Palestinians.

Free the Egyptian 38!

Free the Egyptian 38!

Free the Egyptian 38!
24

Dáithí,

Occupied Egypt 27/01/2008 21:03:04
FREE OCCUPIED EGYPT!!

News update:

Imperialist Palestinian Storm Troopers are beaten back!

Repairs to the walls breached are making excellent progress. Imperialist Palestinian storm troopers have been found to possess copious amounts of money and are using it to bribe unsuspecting Egyptian merchants.

When these poor merchants refuse to cooperate with the imperialists, they have been attacked and injured, many of them critically. The entire world is shocked at the illegal invasion and occupation, world leaders from Libya, Syria, China, and North Korea are meeting at the UN to condemn these human rights violations!

More news will be forwarded as it is fabricated.

Free the Egyptian 38!

Free the Egyptian 38!

Free the Egyptian 38!
25

Dáithí,

Occupied Egypt 27/01/2008 21:35:55
FREE OCCUPIED EGYPT!!

News update: Invasion connected to deaths of over a million Egyptians!

Over 1,000,000 Egyptian deaths are attributed to illegal and immoral Palestinian invasion of Egypt, FOE can reveal!

A scathing report soon to be released by the prestigious organization ‘Doctors Against Illegal Occupation and Needless Imperialistic Aggression (DAIONIA)’ will state that in ‘real’ numbers, deaths due to the illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of Egypt are over one million (1,000,001).

From the Report:

“DAIONIA used the same methodology that we used to determine deaths in Iraq due to war and found that by claiming ‘One Million’, as opposed to mere thousands, it has a much more beneficial effect from a propaganda position.

We started with the ‘Egyptian 38’. Since it was the intent of the invading imperialist Palestinian storm troopers to kill them, we count them as dead. Since they have friends and family that might be suicidal due to the stress of the death of their 38 friends, we have included all of them to raise the number to about 200,000. These were very popular Egyptians and pillars in their communities.

We also included anyone who might have, or might, die of disease, starvation or crime - since there’s no proof yet that the invading army didn’t carry disease. Clearly, people wouldn’t have starved had the imperialist Palestinians not used their suspect pool of funds to take food that could have been used to feed starving Egyptians. That’s another 200,000 and gets us to about 400,000.

Finally, we have to include the Egyptians that may have shortened lives due to the stress involved with living in fear of future imperialist Palestinian aggression. We took a SWAG and came up with an additional 600,001 – so that put us over one million and providing the necessary psychological impact of the true extent of the invasion."

More news updates to follow on FOE!


Free the Egyptian 38!

Free the Egyptian 38!

Free the Egy
26

Dáithí,

Occupied Egypt 27/01/2008 22:23:01
Death in the Newsroom!

From the offices of 'Free Occupied Egypt'

The death toll as a result of the illegal and immoral imperialist Palestinian invasion and occupation has reached 1,000,002, as reporter Fidel McCastro died while typing "Free the Egy...".

He was overcome with wrath while reading the latest death figures from the Palestinian front and suffered heart failure. This death is clearly related to the invasion and has been added to the official figures.

He is being replaced by his brother, Raoul McCastro.
27

Finnking,

Lempäälä 27/01/2008 22:41:15
Daithe

Hey, relax, it could be worse.....
"In a raid on the attackers' village on Friday, Israeli forces shot dead a Palestinian stone thrower during clashes with rock-throwing youths.

Meanwhile, the air strikes against militants in the Gaza Strip continued early Friday morning. Israel Defense Forces say that four of the five Palestinians killed were involved in rocket attacks against Israel. "


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/948281.html
28

Finnking,

Lempäälä 27/01/2008 22:45:50
And then there's:
Israel vs. Palestinians:

* SIPRI 1997: 13,000 killed (1948-96)
* B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in The Occupied Territories [http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualties.asp] 9 Dec 1987-May 2003 (cross-ethnic killings only)
o In Occupied Territories
+ Palestinians: 3544
+ Israelis: 532
o In Israel
+ Palestinians: 106
+ Israelis: 610
o TOTAL
+ Palestinians: 3650
+ Israelis: 1142
+ TOTAL: 4792
* 1st Intifada:
o 28 May 1992 [Glasgow] Herald: since Dec. 1987
+ 904 Palestinians k by Israelis
+ 88 Israelis k by Palestinians
+ 473 Arabs k by Palestinians
+ TOTAL: 1,465
o 9 Dec 1992 Irish Times: since Dec. 1987
+ 1,121 Palestinians k by Israelis
+ 103 Israelis k by Palestinians
+ 535 Arabs k by Palestinians
+ TOTAL: 1,759
29

Dáithí,

Occupied Egypt 27/01/2008 23:27:17
FREE OCCUPIED EGYPT!!

FOE has discovered a massive disparity in casualties!

Our last post showed that over one million Egyptians have died in the latest Palestinian incursion yet NO Palestinians have died. This disturbing and unfair disparity in casualties must be addressed!

“Look at World War II” stated one Egyptian citizen “The Germans and Japanese suffered a disproportionate amount of casualties for a war they started. How fair was that?”

The possibility of raising the issue to the UN is to be discussed at a Minister’s meeting next week. Appealing to the UN should provide dramatic and immediate results! We demand parity of casualties!

Free the Egyptian 38!
30

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 27/01/2008 23:31:54
#30 FInk

Same lies, new day

More criminals are killed by police than police by criminals.
Obviously that means the police are in the wrong.

More Germans died in WWII than Brittish.
Obviously the Brittish were the evil aggressors.

But when you want to look at statistics that matter,
80-90% of the Palestinians killed are combattants.
Over 90% of the Israelis killed are NON-combattants.

But why deal in truth when your lies and hate keep you warm at night.
31

Lynne,

USA 28/01/2008 00:20:38
If you do not like the consequences of war, THEN DON'T START ONE!!! Simple as that.
If you do not like tha amount of people killed for launching rockets into Israel, THEN DON'T LAUNCH ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL.
It's as basic as A B C .
32

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 28/01/2008 00:35:35

#33 Lynne

I would be interested to know how you justify the type of behaviour by you people in the attached.


http://www.imeu.net/news/article007663.shtml
33

britfree,

camelon 28/01/2008 00:36:46
it was all theft . all of it not a stone not a blade of grass that dosent belong in truth to someone else gangs of armed men and women bully and extort threaten ( and worse) to violate the most precious .and then they call it title i know the history of your presence in the middle east on this day of all days promise the world you will cease your cruelty
34

Lynne,

USA 28/01/2008 01:12:28
James Donald

Why is it ok for this

1. I would like to know why you think it is ok for 5% of the children in Sderot have post traumatic stress system from constant barages of rockets.
5. Why it is ok for Hams, Hezbollah and Iran re for the total destruction of Israel.

2. Why it is ok for Nazrallah to tell the world and Israelis he has body parts of Israeli soldiers

If you want to talk about callousness and crudeness, Nazrallah is the picture of it in the dictionary. He is gloating about dismemberment and mutilation.
Depraved doesn't even define him.

Then you have Ahmadinejad boasting Isreal "is doomed to collapse". You and your ilk are the only people who believe that his nuclear work is for peaceful purposes!!

And then there's Hamas..a charter written with the words to destroy Israel.

If you do not think that Israel is in a struggle for survival..It is useless to even talk to you..
How much proof do you need?



35

Lynne,

USA 28/01/2008 01:13:25
Sorry ..that is supposed to read 75% of the Children in Sderot have Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome
36

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 28/01/2008 01:19:48
#37

"75% of the Children in Sderot have Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome"

....What do you think the percentage is for the ENTIRE population of Palestinian children?

http://www.imeu.net/news/article007663.shtml
37

Lynne,

USA 28/01/2008 01:31:22
I DON'T CARE!!! You seem to think it's ok for children to be human shields, used by adults, and if this isn't the worst form of child abuse..that you condone, why should I care. It is for the problem of the Palestinians and the people who approve and appease them.
DON'T LAUNCH ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL. The entire population of Palestine could be well, healthy, and "normal" if they learned to love life and their children and not death.
How do you think they have gotten away with this garbage all along? DEATH is what they are brainwashed to look forward to, and that is why they turn their children into suicide bombers..for this GLORY. It is a sick society, not looking to get well. They believe what their leaders twll them, the children believe what their teachers teach them, and if their was peace tomorrow...how many generations would it take to change the mindset?


38

Lynne,

USA 28/01/2008 01:35:05
James, I'll tell you what your tell me.. This is a middle east source..means nothing..I do not believe it because where it comes from.
39

Let's have the truth,

28/01/2008 01:46:18
#39 Lynne

You posted:

"They believe what their leaders twll them, the children believe what their teachers teach them, and if their was peace tomorrow...how many generations would it take to change the mindset?"

.....That could be an accurate description of ANY society, the US, UK, Israel, Iran, Russia. It was also true of Nazi Germany.

http://www.imeu.net/news/article007663.shtml


40

britfree,

camelon 28/01/2008 01:53:20
do you want the truth lynne idont care anything for the fate of any single person who supports the ethnic hatred of the zionists age nor gender not withstanding shocking iknow but then i have read the war journals of ben gurion and know well the nature of the enemy the palestinians face
41

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 28/01/2008 02:06:14
Israel's birth rooted in terrorism:

1947: A Year of Terror
Jan. 12—Four killed by Irgun terrorist bombing of British headquarters.
Jan. 13—Arab kidnapped and castrated by Jewish terrorists.
March 1—Sixteen Britons killed by Jewish terrorists/Britain invokes martial law
March 10—Jewish informer killed by Jewish terrorists.
March 11—Two British soldiers killed by Jewish terrorists.
April 8—British constable killed by Jewish terrorists.
April 8—Jewish boy killed by British troops.
April 8—Jew beaten to death by Arabs.
April 22—Eight killed in Jewish terrorist bombing of the Cairo-Haifa train.
April 25—Five killed in Jewish terrorist bombing of British camp.
April 26—British police official killed by Jewish terrorist.
May 8—Three Jewish shops in Tel Aviv whose owners refused to contribute to Jewish terrorist groups burned down by Jewish terrorists.
May 8—Jew killed near Tel Aviv by Arab terrorists.
May 12—Two British policemen killed in Jewish Jerusalem.
May 15—British policeman killed in terrorist ambush.
May 15—Two British soldiers killed in terrorist Stern Gang attack.
May 16—Two British police officers killed by terrorists.
May 18—One Jew killed, one wounded by Arab terrorists.
June 5—Jewish terrorists introduce letter bombs in Middle East.
June 28—Four British soldiers killed in Jewish terrorist raids.
July 3—“Anti-terrorist” Jewish families beaten up by Irgunists.
July 18—British soldier killed by Jewish terrorists.
July 19—Another British soldier killed by Jewish terrorists.
July 20—Yet another British soldier killed by Jewish terrorists.
July 23—65 Jews killed when Haganah sinks immigration ship.
July 26—Two British soldiers killed in booby trap.
July 29—Three Jews executed by hanging. Jewish terrorists retaliate by hanging two British soldiers.
Aug. 5—Three British police killed by bomb; plot discovered to poison the water supply of non-Jewish parts of Jerusalem with botulism and other bacteria.
Aug. 10—Four Jews killed in Arab t
42

Let's have the truth,

28/01/2008 02:10:10
continued

Aug. 12—Five Jews, four Arabs killed, others injured, in spread of violent incidents over three days.
Aug. 15—Twelve Palestinians killed in raid by Haganah troops.
Aug. 18—Shops of five Jews in Tel Aviv destroyed by Jewish terrorists.
Aug. 23—Five Arabs of one family—two men, a woman and two children—killed by Jewish terrorists.
Sept. 7—French foil Stern Gang plot to air bomb London.
Sept. 21—British messenger killed by Jewish terrorists.
Sept. 26—Four British policemen killed in Irgun terrorist bank robbery.
Sept. 27—Illegal Jewish immigrant killed by British.
Sept. 29—13 killed, 53 wounded in Irgun terrorist attack on British police station.
Oct. 4—Two Jews killed in ambush, two Arabs killed in retaliation.


......And it continues today
43

Lynne,

USA 28/01/2008 02:28:32
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2000/In+Memory+of+the+Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+a.htm

44

Lynne,

USA 28/01/2008 03:00:57
What country's birth is NOT rooted in terrorism and revolution?
Even the US revolted against the English. You left out suicide bombers who hit weddings, High Holy Day dinners in restaurants, snipers, pregnant Jewish women killed in their homes with her other children.
School buses bombed with children on them, bus stops with people waiting to go to work or school, Jews being killed driving home from work or visitng friends. I urge to to go to that link. And when you read that a sniper killed a 10 month old girl being push in a baby carriage..think of how depraved that that animal had to be.
45

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 28/01/2008 06:25:06
# 46

"What country's birth is NOT rooted in terrorism and revolution?"

....So I take it you approve of the Palestinian's struggle. After all, what they do to achieve their aim is no worse than what was done by Israel.
46

Dáithí,

San Jose 28/01/2008 06:56:01
#47 - lhtt

>"So I take it you approve of the Palestinian's struggle. After all, what they do to achieve their aim is no worse than what was done by Israel."

If you are buying into this logic, then the reverse is also true - you should approve of the Israeli's struggle.

I take it that you will find reasons why this applies to Lynne but the same does not apply to you.
47

Let's have the truth,

28/01/2008 08:13:58
# 48

"I take it that you will find reasons why this applies to Lynne but the same does not apply to you".

......One would not have to look far as Israel's "struggle" is supported and armed by the most sophisticated weapons the world has ever seen.

A little different to the firecrackers lobbed across the border from Gaza.
48

,

28/01/2008 08:47:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

lielayer,

28/01/2008 08:52:44
48
Dáithí

A Colonizing Project Built on Lies

It is not an easy life when it must be lived, defended, justified everyday, every hour-before the world and before the bar of one's own conscience-with lies, cover-ups, deceptions and sophistry.

But this has been the particular burden of Zionists as they conceived their plan for a colonial-settler state in Palestine, as they went about executing this plan on the backs of imperialists powers-with wars, massacres and ethnic cleansing-and, later, as they have persisted in their plans to dispossess the Palestinians of the last fragments of their rights and legacy whose Canaanite roots were more ancient than Isaiah, Ezekiel, David and Moses.

http://www.counterpunch.org/alam0418.html

50

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 28/01/2008 09:55:52
lielayer: "dispossess the Palestinians of the last fragments of their rights and legacy whose Canaanite roots were more ancient than Isaiah, Ezekiel, David and Moses."

Indeed, this is another layer of lies among the many you have spread.

If the Palestinian and not the Israeli "legacy" is Canaanite in origin, how come we speak a Canaanite language -- indeed the only branch of the Canaanite subfamily of Semitic languages that is not extinct -- while they speak Arabic, a different Semitic language that does not belong to the Canaanite subgroup?

For that matter, why do multiple genetic studies show that most Jews, whether Ashkenazi or Sefardi, are most closely related to the Lebanese and Syrian populations, and also very closely related to Palestinians?

Why do all reputable studies by scholars using scientific methods, real evidence, recognized academic standards, etc., in areas such as linguistics, archaeology, history, anthropology, etc., as well as population genetics, come to the same conclusion -- that most Jewish communities throughout the world today have their origin in the land of Israel, AKA Canaan?

Lielayer, we know who we are, where we came from, and where we live today. As it happens, the international community, through bodies such as the League of Nations and the United Nations, has given international legitimacy to our claims as well. We're not sitting around waiting for your permission to be who we are or to assert our right to self-determination in our homeland. Nor do we expect you to ask for our permission to live as a free person in Scotland or wherever you live.
51

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 28/01/2008 11:46:25
Lie Liar

It is only because Israel has built a fence to keep the barbarian horde out that they now commit their War Crimes with rockets.

Suicide bombers, snipers and other means of massacring civilians is the ply and trade of the cowards you support.

52

britfree,

camelon 28/01/2008 11:59:10
yeah tikun i preferred the tactics of the seventies more scope for resistance the tunisians prefered yankee dollars and so ended up behind a wall. tactics can be changed
53

britfree,

camelon 28/01/2008 12:11:57
the studies ive seen give the askenasi central asian DNA still it wouldnt matter if they had 100% hebrew claret theres still the the matter of the theft rape murder torture and mutilation of the only people who have legal tenure of the land as opposed to a 2000 year old fantasy
54

,

28/01/2008 12:13:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

britfree,

camelon 28/01/2008 12:37:37
listen im actually worried that any body might buy this guff. father abraham was not jewish, he was blue for a start .oh i see a totally differant hitorical period and thats gonna give some russians and europeans the right to ethnically cleanse with ruthless barbarity the rightful owners of the land of palestine . definitely not on my watch soldier! break out the katushyas
56

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 28/01/2008 14:24:23
#56 Lie Liar

The problem with the haters, like you and Brit is that you have to post propaganda and lies, because the facts are NEVER with you

Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews.

NOW READ THE CONCLUSION

Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs.
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

Gotta hate the truth. Its the real enemy of you two.
57

lielayer,

28/01/2008 14:56:51
58
Tikun

"Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians."

Jewish immigration into Palestine, which had been a trickle during the 1920s, turned into a flood during the 1930s. When the Palestinians resisted the colonization of their country, they were brutally suppressed, and soon large tracts of Palestine passed into the effective control of Jewish immigrants. In 1948, the United Nations-where American pressure was used to garner the votes-stepped in with a partition plan. It gave 55 percent of historic Palestine to Israel, including most of the coastline and best agricultural lands, though Jews made up only 31 percent of the population and owned less than 7 percent of the land.
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SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 28/01/2008 15:11:36
britfree: "the studies ive seen give the askenasi central asian DNA"

You show me your studies, I'll show you mine. It sounds like you are simply regurgitating the unscientific and now thoroughly debunked speculations about a Khazar origin for a significant portion of Ashkenazi Jewry. No modern genetic studies place the origins of Ashkenazi Jewry in Central Asia.

BTW, some conclude that, contrary to popular opinion, Ashkenazim are more closely related to Palestinians than are Sefardim. Of course, Ashkenazim and Sefardim are more closely related to each other than either group is to non-Jewish populations. But according to some geneticists, Palestinians tend to be somewhat more closely related to Ashkenazim than to Sefardim. Perhaps this could be explained by historically higher levels of tolerance, less persecution, and thus higher rates of intermarriage, conversion to Judaism, assimilation, etc., in Mediterranean (i.e., Sefardi) countries than in the more harshly oppressed and thus insular Jewish communities of Northwestern and Eastern European (i.e., Ashkenazi) countries.

britfree: "It still it wouldnt matter if they had 100% hebrew claret"

Hebrew claret? Claret generally comes from the Bordeaux region of France; as far as I know, there is no Israeli or Hebrew claret. The Rashi winery in California does market a kosher claret; perhaps that's what you meant.

britfree: "theres still the the matter of the theft rape murder torture and mutilation of the only people who have legal tenure of the land as opposed to a 2000 year old fantasy"

Well, shucks, I've never participated in any of that stuff, and frankly, I don't know anyone who has.

The fantasy is your own. Of course no one is perfect and there have been more than enough atrocities on all sides, but our record compares favorably to the Palestinians' on all these counts, to say the least.

Remember the recent study which hypothesized that Israeli soldiers are racist based on the fact that we
59

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 28/01/2008 15:12:50
continued...

Remember the recent study which hypothesized that Israeli soldiers are racist based on the fact that we *don't* rape Palestinian women?

As for "legal tenure of the land", what does that even mean? Israel is sovereign where it is, and this isn't a legal issue but a political one. And if you have or anyone has some issue regarding the ownership of this or that piece of land within Israel, you're welcome to take it up with the Israeli courts.

lielayer: "The Zionist goal was to possess Palestine, where they could establish an exclusive state for European Jewry."

Wrong. That was never a goal. Exclusive state? European Jewry? What in the world are you talking about? The fact is, Zionism established an inclusive, pluralistic state for Jews (regardless of ethnic background, culture, or religious tradition) as well as non-Jews.

lielayer: "In order to possess Palestine, they would have to dispossess the Palestinians."

Wrong again.

lielayer: "It is true that the Jews did not have membership in Europe's master race, or if they did-through centuries of assimilation-this was not conceded by the Europeans. Still, they were a biblical people: it was from their chosen seed that Jesus had sprung. In Europe's hierarchy of races and peoples, this placed the Jews well above the Arab inhabitants of Palestine."

You seem to be forgetting that quaint little European habit of anti-Semitism, including everything from mild to severe discrimination to massacres and pograms to the Holocaust, itself. Your argument is a little hard to defend when, just three years before Israeli independence, much of Europe was hard at the work of exterminating as many Jews as they could, as quickly as they could. This wasn't the fate of Arabs under German occupation. As a matter of fact, a number of Arab leaders, including the Palestinian leadership under the Mufti of Jerusalem, were sympathetic to and even eager collaberators with Nazi Germany.

lielayer: "The Jews were Isr
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SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 28/01/2008 15:15:43
continued...

lielayer: "The Jews were Israelites, children of Jacob, 'born of the spirit,' while the Arabs were Ishmaelites, children of Hagar, an Egyptian slave. In the words of John, the Hagarites were inferior: they were 'born of the flesh.'"

Perhaps this "born in the spirit"/"born in the flesh" stuff is Christian doctrine, I have no idea. It sure isn't Judaism.

It is true that, particularly in Britain, there was a philo-Semitic tradition alongside the anti-Semitic tradition, that philo-Semitism derived in part from certain Christian beliefs (as did anti-Semitism), and that in some cases, this was mixed with, influenced by, and contributed to, anti-Arab bigotry.

OK, so while your country was occupying mine, some of your government officials, military officers, etc., harbored religiously influenced irrational and romantic notions that made them more sympathetic to Jewish national aspirations while others harbored religiously influenced irrational and romantic notions that made them more hostile to Jewish national aspirations. And all of this was set against a backdrop of British government policy and the League of Nations Mandate, both of which were officially supportive of Jewish national aspirations. (The Mandate was, after all, first and foremost a mandate for the "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people".

This is all very interesting, but neither European sympathy nor hostility, neither philo-Semitism nor anti-Semitism, detracts one bit from our basic right to self-determination in our homeland. This is our right regardless of how you feel about us.

As far as we're concerned, except as they might affect us negatively, Europe's (and really, Christianity's) problems with how to relate to The Jew as some unreal, mythical creature, the hero and villain of your biblical stories and morality plays, are your own demons that you need to work out for yourselves.

In other words, some Europans have weird attitudes about
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SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 28/01/2008 15:36:41
continued...

In other words, some Europans have weird attitudes about Jews? Work these problems out for yourselves. Don't expect us to compromise our rights, compromise our land, remain in exile forever, or otherwise make unreasonable accommodations for your demons.

lielayer: "Jewish immigration into Palestine, which had been a trickle during the 1920s, turned into a flood during the 1930s."

That might make for a neat story, but it isn't exactly true. Jewish immigration to Palestine in 1925 was higher than during any single year throughout the 1930s and 1940s until Israeli independence, with the exception of 1933-1935.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 28/01/2008 16:22:04
#36 Lynne,USA - I can only assume that this frankly confusing post is a response to my post #7, which is the only one I have made on this thread. My post is a direct quote from "The Economist" so quite what your point is and where you get all this guff, I don't know (maybe you are hearing voices or seeing things that are not there).
Israel is no more in a "struggle for survival" than you are the Queen of Sheeba given that it has the backing of the most powerful and heavily armed nation on earth. Get a grip FFS.
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,

28/01/2008 16:22:39
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,

28/01/2008 16:26:16
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Tikun,

Greater Nashville 28/01/2008 17:48:32
#59 Lie Liar

"It gave 55 percent of historic Palestine to Israel, including most of the coastline and best agricultural lands, though Jews made up only 31 percent of the population and owned less than 7 percent of the land."

Facinating how you lie baldfacedly.

The Mandate of Palestine, which IS 'historic Palestine' consists of all of Israel, the WB, Gaza and all of Jordan.

The truth is that 80% of Historic Palestine was given to the Aindigenous Arabs in 1927 so the remaining 20% would be for the indigenous Jews.

That you want to keep up the Arab land stealing is obvious. That you needd lies to do so just shows the weakness of your cause.
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28/01/2008 18:49:58
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Tikun,

Greater Nashville 28/01/2008 19:40:50
#68 Lie Liar

Again you post bald faced lies.
Jordan compromises 80% of Historic Palestine.

So every time you try to use some invented figure, you leave off the 80% the Palestinians were already given.

That you need to lie to make your case shows the weakness of your cause.

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/images/1923-1948-British-Mandate.pdf
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,

28/01/2008 19:57:54
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69

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 28/01/2008 20:11:54
#70 Lie Liar

Cant adddress the truth, huh, just keep parrotting your propoganda
Proof of your lies is below. Read and lose the hate

Jordan compromises 80% of Historic Palestine.

So every time you try to use some invented figure, you leave off the 80% the Palestinians were already given.

That you need to lie to make your case shows the weakness of your cause.

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/images/1923-1948-British-Mandate.pd
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SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 28/01/2008 20:33:31
lielayer, re 65-66, 68, 70.

It is really quite rude, obnoxious and absurd for you to presume to tell Zionists what are Zionist goals, and to get it so wildly wrong. If you wish to know, ask us. We'd be happy to tell you. It is also a copyright violation and intellectually dishonest to quote long passages from someone else's article without attribution.

Don't you have any ideas of your own?
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lielayer,

28/01/2008 22:57:35
With predictable regularity, the Holocaust capital was used to stifle any talk of Israeli injustice towards Palestinians. The West had been complicit, directly and indirectly, in the Holocaust, this most unique of all crimes. And since their guilt and remorse over this crime was correspondingly deep, this could be exploited to Israel's advantage. In the decades after the second world war, there were few Westerner who dared to see past their guilt; the movies and media made sure that time did not diminish these feelings of guilt. And those who did were quickly muzzled with charges of anti-Semitism.

The Holocaust capital was used to make the Palestinian claims of victimization untenable. This became a logical impossibility. The Jews-and, therefore, Israel-were the super victims, who completely overshadowed all other victims. How, then, could any people claim that they were the victims of the Jews? It became a logical contradiction to claim that you were the victims of the world's super victims. The Palestinians did not have a prayer: their plaints would never be heard in the court of Western opinion.

It was not enough that the Palestinians should be denied victimhood: the power of the super victim was used to denounce them. The Palestinians could not assert any rights-to their land, their freedom, or dignity-if this went against the interests or needs of the super victims. The Palestinians had acted immorally in seeking to restrict the free immigration of Jews, who were fleeing persecution, and whose flight was their only alternative to Nazi death camps. By refusing to share their land with the Jews, the Palestinians had actually contributed to their extermination. In other words, the very existence of the Palestinians-at least during the 1930s and 1940s-invited charges of immorality.

http://www.counterpunch.org/alam0418.html
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Tikun,

Greater Nashville 28/01/2008 23:54:00
#70 Lie Liar

Cant adddress the truth, huh, just keep parrotting your propoganda
Proof of your lies is below. Read and lose the hate

Jordan compromises 80% of Historic Palestine.

So every time you try to use some invented figure, you leave off the 80% the Palestinians were already given.

That you need to lie to make your case shows the weakness of your cause.

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/images/1923-1948-British-Mandate.pd
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Tikun,

Greater Nashville 29/01/2008 00:04:14
What is a Palestinian?
Posted: April 25, 2001
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Ever since I wrote a column last October called "Myths of the Middle East," readers from around the world have asked me what is meant by the term "Palestinian."

The simple answer is that it means whatever Yasser Arafat wants it to mean.

Arafat himself was born in Egypt. He later moved to Jerusalem. Indeed, most of the Arabs living within the borders of Israel today have come from some other Arab country at some time in their life.

For instance, just since the beginning of the Oslo Accords, more than 400,000 Arabs have entered the West Bank or Gaza. They have come from Jordan, Egypt and, indirectly, from every other Arab country you can name.

The Arabs have built 261 settlements in the West Bank since 1967. We don't hear much about those settlements. We hear instead about the number of Jewish settlements that have been created. We hear how destabilizing they are -- how provocative they are. Yet, by comparison, only 144 Jewish settlements have been built since 1967 -- including those surrounding Jerusalem, in the West Bank and in Gaza.

The number of Arab settlers is based on statistics collected on the Allenby Bridge and other collection points between Israel and Jordan. It is based on the number of Arab day workers entering but not leaving Israel. The numbers were published by the Israel Central Bureau for Statistics during the administration of Binyamin Netanyahu and subsequently denied as "recording errors" by the Ehud Barak administration.

Of course, the Barak administration had incentives for denying the high illegal immigration numbers, given its heavy political reliance on Arab voters.

Is this a new phenomenon? Absolutely not. This has always been the case. Arabs have been flocking to Israel ever since it was created and even before, coinciding with the wave of Jewish immigration into Palestine prior to 1948.

Winston Churchill said in 1939: "So far from being persecuted
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Tikun,

Greater Nashville 29/01/2008 00:05:10
Winston Churchill said in 1939: "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

And that raises a question I never hear anyone ask: If Israel's policies make life so intolerable for Arabs, why do they continue to flock to the Jewish state?

This is an important question as we see the Palestinian debate now shift to the issue of "the right of return."

According to the most liberal claims by Arab sources, some 600,000 to 700,000 Arabs left Israel in and around 1948 when the Jewish state was created. Most were not forced out by Jews, but rather left at the urging of Arab leaders who had declared war on Israel.

Yet, there are far more Arabs living in these territories now than ever before. And many of those who left in 1948 and thereafter actually had roots in other Arab nations.

This is why it is so difficult to define the term "Palestinian." It always has been. What does it mean? Who is a "Palestinian"? Is it someone who came to work in Palestine because of a bustling economy and job opportunities? Is it someone who lived in the region for two years? Five years? Ten years? Is it someone who once visited the area? Is it any Arab who wants to live in the area?

Arabs outnumber Jews in the Middle East by a factor of about 100 to one. But how many of those hundreds of millions of Arabs are actually Palestinians? Not very many.

The Arab population of Palestine was historically extremely low -- prior to the Jews' renewed interest in the area beginning in the early 1900s.

For instance, a travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal.

The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000
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Tikun,

Greater Nashville 29/01/2008 00:05:43
The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

"The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property," the book states.

Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906.

Why was the Muslim population so low? After all, we're told that Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam. Surely, if this were a widely held belief in 1906, more of the devout would have settled there.

The truth is that the Jewish presence in Jerusalem and throughout the Holy Land persisted throughout its bloody history, as is documented in Joan Peters' milestone history on the origins of the Arab-Jewish conflict in the region, "From Time Immemorial."

It is also true that the Arab population increased following Jewish immigration into the region. The Arabs came because of economic activity. And, believe it or not, they came because there was more freedom and more opportunity in Israel than in their own homelands.

What is a Palestinian? If any Arabs have legitimate claims on property in Israel, it must be those who were illegally deprived of their land and homes after 1948. Arafat has no such claim. And few if any of those shooting, bombing and terrorizing Israelis today do either.
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britfree,

the west bank of the dichty burn 29/01/2008 00:37:29
winston snot said this .winston snot said that . some book that tikuns got (the library want it back) says the european incomers were right by some twisted logic to terrorise ambush murder mutilate and steal their way into a state on land they held zero title to except in some mumbo jumbo covenant which THEY believe but surely not rational humanity lets leave religeon out of it and deal in 1st principles of law
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Lynne,

USA 29/01/2008 02:50:32
As usual britfree...you don't know what you are talking about. Presented with facts, and you STILL don't know what you are talking about.
I have stated and will state again...Zionists BOUGHT land from the Ottoman Empire and Arab landowners. There was no invasion, no conquest or theft of Arab land. No Arabs were driven from their homes, and the Arab population grew. NO LAWS WERE BROKEN.. but whay should truth mean anything to an "eduvated person" such as yourself. Facts mean nothing either to you. You just parrot all the lies over and over waiting for people to believe you. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE FACTS. Even though you would like to.
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Lynne,

USA 29/01/2008 02:52:12
"educated"...was the word....
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lielayer,

29/01/2008 09:43:18
79
Lynne

"There was no invasion, no conquest or theft of Arab land. No Arabs were driven from their homes, and the Arab population grew."

When the occasion demanded, Israel's victimhood would also be used to justify violence against the Palestinians. After all, the Israelis argued, we are victims of the greatest, most unique crime in history: nothing we can do could even begin to equal that. Among others, this logic was employed by Chaim Weizmann, the first president of Israel, when protesting the West