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London takes centre stage as Olympics are handed over

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Published Date: 24 August 2008
THE symbolic handover of the Olympic flag to London took place tonight during a celebratory closing ceremony in Beijing.
The Beijing Olympics began as they finished, in a spectacular fusion of colour, light, fireworks, music, dance and technology.

London mayor Boris Johnson received the banner from his Beijing counterpart Guo Jinlong, signalling the end of the 2008 Games in China.

Jacques Rogge, the International Olympic Committee president, told the 91,000 people inside the Bird's Nest stadium: "Tonight, we come to the end of 16 glorious days which we will cherish forever.

Thank you to the people of China.

"New stars were born. Stars from past Games amazed us again. We shared their joys and their tears, and we marvelled at their ability. We will long remember the achievements we witnessed here.

"These were truly exceptional Games.

"And now, in accordance with tradition, I declare the Games of the 29th
XXIX] Olympiad closed, and I call upon the youth of the world to assemble four years from now in London to celebrate the Games of the 30th XXX] Olympiad."

After the official handover and the national anthem sung by the National Youth Theatre, London 2012's eight-minute slot involving David Beckham, pop icon Leona Lewis and rock star Jimmy Page began.

The full article contains 220 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Continental,

24/08/2008 15:36:20
Boris Johnson was an absolute mess with his jacket open and hands in his pockets
2

Mercian,

UK 24/08/2008 16:06:26
# 2

Agreed. But at least he never pulled eyes back
3

Media 1,

cape town 24/08/2008 16:07:27
Well done Boris! Roll on 2012.
Team GB will have a lot to offer, it is going to be awesome.

#1 MacGilcuddy
Now that the olympics is over, who cares what China does? There is oppression all over the world, from China to Iraq, Iran, Palestine and Georgia. Deal with it - The olympics were awesome and the hosts were outstanding.
All we can say is well done China and well done to the many men and women who made the games so brilliant.
4

Mercian,

UK 24/08/2008 16:08:12
# 2

That was meant to read:

Agreed. But at least he never pulled his eyes back as a lame impression of a China man....
5

JenJen,

WestIsBest 24/08/2008 16:08:46
Did you think so #2? My jury's still out on his suitability as mayor but if we're talking sartorial elegance, I thought he was quite refreshingly unstuffy compared to the other guys, who all looked like bankers. And I thought the bus thing was great, especially the music.
6

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

24/08/2008 16:16:48
4...Plenty people care about oppression thorughout the world and plenty people are dealing with it pal....your flippant remarks truly reveal the kind of personality that you are....
7

Media 1,

Cape Town 24/08/2008 16:24:33
#7 Horrible

So you didnt watch one single moment of the olympics, such is the level of your concern for the people of China? Not one item in your house was made in China such is the depths you go to ensure that you do your bit for the people of China?

Please, we are all human and we dont like to hear stories of oppression, but it exists and none of us, including you actually care enough to do anythng about it, which is why you will sit on this thread and pretend to care but cannot deny that you watched the olympics or that you use items that were made in China.
Hypocrite!
8

Neil Waugh,

OLd Strathcona 24/08/2008 17:01:51
"London takes centre stage" kinda says it all.
More Scots money going into English facilities so the "Great Britain" team can score political points for the Westminster parliament at our nation's expense. Has some interesting echoes of the Hitler Olympics.
Bring on the referendum.
9

Traquir , Alba,

24/08/2008 18:11:33

"The London bus is an iconic image that will be recognisable to anyone watching anywhere in the world and it will be in complete contrast to what has gone before," he said.

"We wanted to do a show that is irrepressibly British, iconic, eclectic and witty."

see - tinyurl.com/3lqh74

What an utter waste on a £2.5 million display
of Britishness. And to make it worst for
Scotland their main star Beckham advertised
the Olympics as:

"I'm an East End boy and I'm proud that it's happening in London. I was very proud to be involved in the first place bringing it back to England and to London."

Jimmy Page also stated :

"The Olympics is going to bring a whole spirit of optimism to London and it's going to be fantastic."

see - tinyurl.com/4zr29z

So great news for London and England, how ungrateful
that some Scots will not support this latest
British Capital "investment". It all feels like
we are going to be subjected to 4 years of
the type of "Anglocentricity and London-centricity"
which was via an independent report already
proven to be endemic in the BBC. The same
report also pointed out they were
"too preoccupied with the interests and experiences of London", what a surprise.

- see tinyurl.com/6md9t5

10

Traquir , Alba,

24/08/2008 18:11:55
The London Olympics is just another example
of Scotland building up the infrastructure
of the South East and British Capital, and of
course we are told the breadcrumbs we will get
will be sufficient for us. 2% of the contracts
Scottish companies are currently getting
is hardly even a breadcrumb -
see - tinyurl.com/3jbu2d

So just what benefit is Scotland going to get from
the London Olympics.
From the official Economic Impact analysis
of the London Olympics (see tinyurl.com/6my6gp )
we have :

"The implication of this is that for the rest of the UK (excluding London), London 2012 will have a negative
impact on GDP of c.£4 billion caused by the displacement of resources and activities towards London."

"A change in the number of businesses created is also
forecast and implies a considerable negative impact to
the rest of the UK (excluding London) resulting
from business closure or displacement towards the
London economy."

"Again this implies a huge negative effect on jobs in the rest of the UK (excluding London)"

And this report was before the massive and obscene
cost over runs from the original estimate of
£4 billion to now at least £14 billion see - tinyurl.com/6p43bv

Additionally £184 million has been taken from the Scottish lottery. see - tinyurl.com/6pyd43

On top of all that the "positive" impact we
are told the
games will means that it counts towards
Scotlands expenditure in the latest GER Report and
will do so in subsequent GERS reports !! As of
course do our involuntary contributions to Trident,
The Iraq War, etc.
see - tinyurl.com/6m9lsm

Scotland is just being treated with absolute disdain and likely the most we will get out of
this that our begging
for breadcrumbs from the masters
table might, just might mean we recover a
small portion of our "investment". Scotland
needs to be rid of these British parasites
as quickly as possible.
11

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/08/2008 18:17:47
London is one of the world's great cities and I wish it well for 2012. The little Scotlanders above are a small but vociferous minority enraged at the sight of the Union Flag proudly displayed at Beijing.
12

john z,

edinburgh 24/08/2008 18:21:54
Yes, Traquir, this is going to be a four year long english -fest.

What bugs me is they keep referring to London as the capital of Britain, which I completely disagree with. When was that decided?? Did all the countries of Great Britain get an equal vote to decide the capital of Britain. No, in some colonial english minds, London is the capital of Britain, but in reality, it has never been officially designated so by the people of Britain.

Unless, of course you regard England as 'britain'???????????????? What do you think BBC???????

Good on England to host the olympics. Good on London to host the Olympics. But please, for goodness sake can we just cut the pretence that they have any relevance to Scotland.

Meanwhile, we scots pay for Wembley and the new stadiums being built in the East end of London. How stupid are the people of Scotland.

Oh, and the unelected Prime minister Brown wants a UK football team - so that'll be all English players, and one each from N. Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, who'll sit on the bench to lend credibility to the whole exercise.
13

WL,

livingston 24/08/2008 18:25:36
#14
it meant jail if you were to wave a Saltire. That is how "free" the olympic games have become. Anyway, Team Scotland" won 3 gold and 2 silver medals. And that is great, although there is room for improvement. We will see how "Team Scotland" will do in 4 years time. There should not be a "Team GB" (sic) by that time anymore.
And Mr Rogge is just a nitwit; he should concentrate on sport and not on computer generated shows.
14

Traquir , Alba,

24/08/2008 18:27:30
14 Mercutio, FALKIRK.

"London is one of the world's great cities"

Kind of not surprising given the level of investment
channeled into the British Capital
and the rest of the South East,
including the portion which
is spun as a Scottish "investment" :

. £30 billion subway upgrade program
see - tinyurl.com/6sxrgv
. £5.9 billion on one London railway station
see - tinyurl.com/6yheht
. £16 billion For another London rail line
see - tinyurl.com/yphdwl
. £1 billion to upgrade an existing railway station
see - tinyurl.com/5sn8mm
. three quarters of a billion on a Dome !
see - tinyurl.com/6h6ezn
. Followed of course by yet another
London regeneration project £5 billion
see tinyurl.com/5l3jp3
. £6 billion Channel Tunnel Rail Link
see - tinyurl.com/4pg53n
. £2.5 billion -Roads just around the
Docklands in London
see - tinyurl.com/55wh6b
. £3.2 billion For Another Tube line
see - tinyurl.com/5qjoao
. £1 billion improvement to an existing Light Rail Line
see - tinyurl.com/6q2424
. £20 billion for a Second Thames flood barrier planned
see - tinyurl.com/5uf79a
. A £4 billion greenhouse tower over
Batersea power station
see- tinyurl.com/6ac8hn
. £9.3 billion for the Channel Tunnel -
see tinyurl.com/6s4vsb
. £4.3 billion for a 5th Heathrow Terminal
see - tinyurl.com/2h5hx6
. £5 billion Upgrade other London airport upgrades
see - tinyurl.com/5oe82n
. £10 billion Plans for Heathrow link to Channel tunnel
see - tinyurl.com/568dzq
. £13 billion for a third runway Heathrow runway
see - tinyurl.com/3bgdtt
. £9 billion for Brown's plans to transform Thames Gateway
see - tinyurl.com/4kr3pt
. £18 billion London Olympics (
including £184 million stolen from
the Scottish Lottery)
see - tinyurl.com/olympicscam

15

john z,

edinburgh 24/08/2008 18:31:02
Number 8 Media 1

I actually did not watch the olympics, as I felt it was a complete sham to hold an event deemed to be about freedom and achievement from a country renowned the world over as being a truly evil dictatorship, which tramples rough shod over human rights.

See that nice stadium - people lived in houses there until recently, when the army evicted them forcefully, so the Chinese dictatorship could put on a 'good show'.

The olympics in China- we can all pretend and ignore the behaviour of the chinese government. But to those who live in Taiwan under constant fear and intimidation from China, to those who live in Tibet, and are being hung and tortured during the games it is a very different matter.

The IOC should be ashamed of themselves- but then again they did have the olympics in Nazi Germany when Hitler was Chancellor, so no real surprises.

So yes, I did not watch any olympics for the reasons I've stated, and yes, I do whenever possible boycott Chinese goods. We are not all as shallow as you Media 1.
16

john z,

edinburgh 24/08/2008 18:32:49
Number 14

It is the Union Rag, not the Union flag.

If you want to think of yourself as a 'subject' under english colonial rule, that's up to you.
17

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/08/2008 18:33:15
Traquir I'm glad you acknowleged London as the capital,the award of the games is to that great city which has been a beacon of light to the free world.
18

john z,

edinburgh 24/08/2008 18:36:41
Mercutio,

clearly you are one of those 'little englanders'.
19

WL,

livingston 24/08/2008 18:37:34
China has Tibet
England has Scotland
20

john z,

edinburgh 24/08/2008 18:41:41
WL

How aptly put. that is the english way, isn't it. England HAS Scotland. Time to break free from English colonial rule, all the other colonial countries oppressed by England did it. Scotland has just been a bit slow.
21

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/08/2008 18:44:34
#21 No I'm Scots and proud of it but I am also British and quite happy to wish London well in hosting the Olympic games without having to be distracted by the cavilling of a few parish pump nats.
#22 If you are suggesting some equivalence between Scotland and Tibet you are surely in need of treatment.
22

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/08/2008 18:48:17
#23 I'm afraid we Scots have to admit our avid participation in the Empire the results of which will have to await the judgement of history.
23

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/08/2008 18:55:20
#26 Who is we.
24

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/08/2008 18:56:03
Or if you are not royal who are we
25

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/08/2008 18:57:49
#26 MacGillicuddy reeks!
26

Climate change is a fraud,

24/08/2008 19:04:43
Did you know that Hitler designed the modern Olympic rings?

Did you know that the Nazis came up with the idea of a 'European Economic Community'?

Vote UKIP and get us out of the Nazi EU!
27

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/08/2008 19:07:18
#30 Obviously you missed the pun.
28

Scottish/American,

Mars 24/08/2008 19:10:29
I can't believe that LONDON won these games. The crime and stabbings going on in London right now is horrendous! I mean, the YOBS are a disgrace to Britain. And the English football fans? OMG! They will bring TERROR to that land. It seems there's nothing being done about all of this! It continues to be on a daily basis!
I think it's the worst thing that could have happened is London being granted the games.
I am terrified just thinking about it. All the eyes from the four corners of this world will be upon London in 2012. It is already making me feel giddy with utter dread and dismay.
For Boris the Botched, he's a disgrace to men, never mind London! Someone needs to have a word with this guy to bloody clean up his act and I don't mean his stupid voice, I mean his clothes! He looks filthy this guy!
Oh dread! Dread! Dread! This is so wrong. I am DREADING it!

29

Beergoggles,

England 24/08/2008 19:23:25
Jesus wept. I have a lot of respect for Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and other members of the SNP hierarchy, but some people really get on my t*ts.
30

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 24/08/2008 19:34:40
We've got a tiny budget, big credit crunch, a gormless gaff ridden unelected good-for-nothing PM, useless project management (sorry - no project management), hopeless builders who will likely down tools whenever they feel like it, old useless over-filled and dirty decrepit transport systems, no chance of new transport systems, an idiot Olympic minister, a muddy hole in the ground that is barely started in Stratford in London(with only four years left), David Beckham just managing to kick a football into the crowd and some B list celeb singing off the X Factor on a red double decker bus surrounded by nutters with umbrellas. God help us. It will be a national humilation after China's perfect games and astonishing ceremonies.
31

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 24/08/2008 19:58:05
In a part of Devon recently we have a children's hospice that was appealing for funds to make the lives of these terminally ill youngsters a little more respectfully happier; while maximum lottery funding was being made available towards the bulk off the cost for the present and future 2012 London Olympic Games to enhance Brown's personal desire for "BRITISHNESS" to be accepted in his dis-united UK. This cretin has become a total disgrace at representing this Island politically.
There is barely a shred off decency remaining after his eleven years as the s0-called "Iron Chancellor which has reduced the Island to near Third World Status and should be given the heave-ho post-haste, before we have a repeat of Thatcher's 1988 disintegration and its tragic consequences for vast numbers of our citizens!
32

Westcoaster,

perth 24/08/2008 20:02:51
Why is that just about all your so called "scottish" athletes train and live in England because as a nation we would rather sit on our ar*e and complain about things instead of safe guarding and demanding facilities for our children.

Scottish athletes only have any success because of british money and English based training. Will english people in newcastle complain when they are proping up our glasgow games in 2014? i doubt it because none of them care.

Bring on the British Football team as the only players good enough to get in is sir alex as coach so i don't see what you narrow minded bods are on about. get a life
33

WL,

livingston 24/08/2008 20:24:35
#38
"Bring on the British Football Team".
1. Is there a British Football Team??
2. A "British Football Team" would not qualify for the Olympics because it has to be represent a country (although some countries, including China got away with changing the rules); so it would have to be a "UK Football Team".
34

Mercian,

UK 24/08/2008 20:43:49
# 36 It's life but not as we know it

LOL. The umbrellas were especially a funny statement to the world about the national past-time with the weather - I mean we do get a lot of rain showers - and everybody show know this...

35

JenJen,

WestIsBest 24/08/2008 20:59:12
#34, your ex-pat location kinda shows, muddle-head.

"I can't believe that LONDON won these games. The crime and stabbings going on in London right now is horrendous! I mean, the YOBS are a disgrace to Britain. And the English football fans? OMG! They will bring TERROR to that land. It seems there's nothing being done about all of this! It continues to be on a daily basis!"

1. London is some way behind Glasgow in its stabbings-per-capita rate just now. Might be worth concentrating your schlock-horror closer to home?

2. Glasgow Rangers "supporters" in Manchester eclipsed anything the other lot's done recently.

People who live in glass houses ...
36

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 24/08/2008 21:08:49
#40 Sadly the only funny thing was how our lot looked like an amateur drama company compared to the Bolshoi Ballet.
37

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 24/08/2008 21:35:57
You couldn't make it up: Sky News just reported that the Visitlondon promo video for London 2012 shown tonight in London Olympics house in Beijing featured an artwork of the notorious Moor's child murderer Myra Hyndley. Boris and Gordon are furious. Let the egits start with this London Olympic farce as they mean to go on.
38

Andra, Dundee,

24/08/2008 21:38:24
Britain will host the 2012 Olympics. Opportunities for us all - sporting and economic. Good timing - this event will help us out of an economic low (much better than overheating an existing boom).
Even nationalists will benefit - they'll find lots of things to whinge about and wallow in their sad lives.
39

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 24/08/2008 21:48:05
#44 LOL: Naivety is cheap and widely available. You all know in your hearts that the London Olympic project will be like watching very slow but very expensive car crash TV.
40

Andra, Dundee,

24/08/2008 21:58:57
#45 It's life but not as we know it
Does your same logic apply to the Glasgow 2014?
41

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 24/08/2008 22:04:51
#46 No, Glasgow has far more realistic expectations and goals to meet.
42

danbob,

24/08/2008 22:06:58
Roll up, roll up, for one night only (we hope) come and peddle your ugly nationalist anti english hate on here. Or you could be like Traquir,Alba and make a career of it.
43

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 24/08/2008 22:14:26
#48 You'll be one of the lads putting up the Nissan Huts and marque tents on the last day before the 2012 games so that the poor atheletes have somewhere to stay in the Stratford mudbath.

Maybe they can hire the Apollo theatre in Hammersmith and get Jack Dee to do a one hour appearance as the opening and closing ceremony; I imagine a reasonable rate can be negotiated (from what's left of the cash after the builders have scarpered with the rest).
44

danbob,

24/08/2008 22:16:27
49# Are you sure you have the right games? The topic is about the olympics not the 2014 commonwealth games.
45

,

24/08/2008 22:27:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

danbob,

24/08/2008 22:36:43
51# Sorry to pis* on your bonfire, but I dont support british nationlism.
47

Scottish/American,

Mars 24/08/2008 23:03:48
I'm telling you. London will be the laughing stock of the world when all and sundry come for the games in 2012. There will be murders by the boatload! English Yobs are renowned the world over for their violence and yobbery!
Mark my words: THE 2012 GAMES WILL BE NOTHING BUT A RIOT FROM DAY ONE. LONDON WILL DISGRACE ITSELF IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
Another 2 stabbings during the night!
Tsk! Tsk!
We might as well start counting dead bodies now!


48

Frank, MD,

Scotland 24/08/2008 23:10:23
A very interesting two weeks. In most parts of UK there has been undiluted pleasure at Team GB's success. In Scotland every single Scot I have met (as a friend, colleague or patient) has shared this. However the vileness of nationalist web posters has intensified. References to Chris Hoy putting his medals up his *rse for draping the Union Flag and shedding a tear for the UK national anthem are beneath contempt.

The aggression and nastiness of SNP posters continues to fill me with dread about the possible future for ethnic minorities in the nightmare scenario of an independent Scotland.

49

Alan Reid,

nz 24/08/2008 23:17:13
17 Traquir , Alba,Well said mate.
As usual we will hear nothing about your posts from Media 1. He doesn't like facts that put his beloved Union in a bad light.


Westcoaster,perth, "Scottish athletes only have any success because of british money and English based training" Good point, but it's because Scotland gets it's funding cut to prop up your England.

Media 1: try this one!
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Coe-asks-Scots-critics-to.4038325.jp#2764339
50

Alan Reid,

nz 24/08/2008 23:21:44
54 Frank, MD,Scotland , Thats garbage, there are people who put out extreme views on both sides of this argument, stop trying to smear the whole of the SNP supporters by your post.
51

A McConnell,

Edinburgh 24/08/2008 23:24:54
#54 - I am buoyed to see some sense written here. All of the hyperbolic, fanatic spite is getting pretty tiresome.

A few points, as some of you quite clearly seem to have no grasp of the current state of affairs in Britain. The suggestion that Scotland is under the colonial rule of England is, quite frankly, delusional steaming codswollop. Scotland is not an English Colony and we aren't ruled by anyone at all - we are *governed* by Holyrood and Westminster, where we elect members to represent our views. Westminster consists of the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish governing mutually, so to say we are Governed by England is also rubbish - we are governed by the British, we are governed by ourselves!

If the Scottish want independence so badly, then why did fewer than half of the people who voted, vote for the only party offering independence? It is a quite ridiculous notion.

I am proud to be British, and am amazed at how well Team GB have done, I think all our athletes have done fantastically. I hope they continue to do well as Team GB in 2012.

Additionally, why is Scottish nationalism more acceptable to some of you than British nationalism? The Scots were enthusiastic and brutal empire builders, the tip of the British spear driving into India - besides, the Empire, and British imperialism is long dead, it's a moo point.
52

Traquir , Alba,

24/08/2008 23:29:26
48 danbob,

"Roll up, roll up, for one night only (we hope) come and peddle your ugly nationalist anti english hate"

Hmm, I don't believe that anybody has stated that
they hate the English, but it is a common Unionist
trick to try and deflect racism into debate.
If you are not already a Unionist you are well
on the way to becoming one - check
out the guide on how the preserve the Union
and you will find the rest of "skills" needed.
see - tinyurl.com/5ncw8z

Just to be clear in case there is any misunderstanding
the vast majority of Scottish Nationalists including
myself have a high level of respect for England
and the English as a proud nation and people in their
own right. The criticism is being directed at
that "curious vacuity, Britishness."
see - tinyurl.com/682pbm
Do try and not to mix up England and Britain they
are not the same thing you know. Unashamedly we
nationalists are highly critical of Britain and it overly subsidized capital London. To try
and extend this to some sort of English racism
is just nonsense and rather self-demeaning.

You sir really need to up your game.

Slàinte mhòr
53

JG,

Fife 24/08/2008 23:33:49
#58 Traquir
Is that not the same comment you posted on the other thread a bit earlier? Do you just have a selection of remarks and select the closest ne for the relevant subject?
54

Traquir , Alba,

24/08/2008 23:35:19
59 JG,Fife

Perhaps if the Scotsman articles did not overlap so
much I would not have to bother :)

I am sure both of us would prefer a higher level
of journalism in this paper.
55

Traquir , Alba,

24/08/2008 23:46:23
59 JG,Fife

Also I meant to mention that my response was the
same comment from the same poster who on the other thread
was trying to imply English racism where there
was none. It is the Unionistas that appear to
have a very limited selection of canned remarks,
or haven't you noticed how shallow they are ?
56

JG,

Fife 24/08/2008 23:54:07
#61 Traquir
I'm really not in to all of the 'ist' slagging off that goes on here. If you insult me, I'll stand up for myself (and am quite capable of so doing!!) and I won't be bullied. PERSONALLY, I've been accused by nationalists as being 'not Scottish' and told 'if I don't like it, I could move!' on occasions when I've made a comment that didn't conform to their ideas.
57

Conan the Librarian™,

25/08/2008 00:00:44
Did anyone notice the wee badge on Boris' lapel?
58

John PM,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 00:24:17
The arguments from unionists are rarely new but they are always without exception hypocritical. If Traquir is pasting his posts it's because there is nothing new being said!

The SNP are not racists and never have been. Those who pretend otherwise diminish their own arguments (if they have any).

No member of the public believes it so why oh why do you keep repeating it? If you want an example of racist nationalism you would need to find an imperialist nationalism ie one which believes their country is BETTER than all others.

Scotland wants EQUALITY with other countries. On the other hand Britain wants to bully others with Nukes. While the modern Britain is different from its past racist Empire nonetheless it retains some pretensions about it's world role.

Scotland could do a lot better by removing itself from these pretensions and starting with a clean slate as a newly independent country. Claiming that those who support self determination for their own country are by definition racists is simply ridiculous. The break up of Empire was led from the ground up. Smearing the locals didn't work then and it won't work now.

Yes (before I get the predictable response) we played a part in the past Empire but now it's time to move on!

The EU and UN are the bodies Scotland needs representation in. Britain is no longer required.
59

A McConnell,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 01:02:37
The anti-war and pro-independence camps seem quite muddled to me. The not-in-my-name approach is a bit of a half cocked approach, if you're threatening independence on the basis of not agreeing with the government leading us to war - well fair enough, but I think it's more sensible to try and stop the government from going to war again rather than stepping back and removing yourself from it altogether.

The next time (if there is a next time) Britain goes to war, and you think it's wrong, you won't have such an easy time making meaningful protest. Just the backlash from the war in Iraq will make going to war again a harder decision for the government - and sticking around and trying to make all of Britain a better country isn't necessarily the easy option, but it is more noble than saying "I disagree with you, so I'm going home and I'm taking my ball (read: the oil) with me, so nyer"...
60

AriseSirHoy,

Manchester (previously Edinburgh) 25/08/2008 01:11:17
I don't really think that this is really the place for full blown independence debate, but that is what this has become so here are my two cents...


#64 - "The arguments from unionists are rarely new but they are always without exception hypocritical."

Pretty ironic seeing as I haven't heard anything new from any nationalists recently.

"Yes (before I get the predictable response) we played a part in the past Empire but now it's time to move on!"

Also fairly ironic seeing as it's usually the nationalists who bring up the topic of the Empire. Don't really like it when it's used against you so much huh?

Thing is, we could throw these kinds of arguments back and forth forever, for me they're just not what the independence debate is about. I have both Scottish and English parents, have lived in both countries, love both countries equally. I love my Scottish identity, I love my English identity, but above all I am inherently BRITISH. I love my British identity. That's just who I am. For me, to break up Great Britain because England and Scotland (and let's not forget NI or Wales in this either) can do alright economically makes about as much sense as splitting up Scotland itself.

Now I'm not saying that everyone in the UK has to feel as I do, and I'm not even saying that we should forget about independence without a full and proper debate, but there are many others like me, and until Alex Salmond and the SNP can even ACKNOWLEDGE that people like me exist, I can't really have any respect for their opinions.
61

Grant,

Scotland 30/08/2008 23:32:06
#66 AriseSirHoy

"Also fairly ironic seeing as it's usually the nationalists who bring up the topic of the Empire. Don't really like it when it's used against you so much huh?"

Yes, it is a bit like the fact it is Unionists who bring up the whole "Braveheart" thing when discussing Scottish Nationalists and independence. They don't much like it used against them either.

""I have both Scottish and English parents, have lived in both countries, love both countries equally. I love my Scottish identity, I love my English identity, but above all I am inherently BRITISH. I love my British identity. That's just who I am.""

If you are inherently British, them I'm pleased for you. It is however, utterly irrelevant to the constitutional and political debate on independence.

There is always going to be a commonality between Scotland and the other nations of the UK, especially with respect to culture, outlook and shared history. No-one denies this, and as far as I know, the SNP don't deny it either. Political and economic independence won't change any of that. It may alter the economic and political landscapes of all UK countries, but culturally and fundamentally it won't alter that commonality we have.

Indeed there is a strong commonality between the United Kingdom and Ireland. Irish independence hasn't changed that. There is a strong commonality between the Nordic countries, Benelux, Australia/New Zealand and America/Canada and so on. None of these countries are in centralised political union with one another.

I guess what I am trying to say (unsubtly) is that independence need not change your British identity. In fact, I'd imagine it would elevate it from being a faux geopolitical identity, to a fully fledged cultural one.

Arguing for the status quo on identity terms, is however, unsecure and fraught with danger. I, a fervent Scottish independence supporter, would never argue for Scottish independence on the grounds that I see my Scottish identity as pa

 

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