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Published Date: 12 April 2009
PLAIN-clothes police carrying concealed guns are being deployed on Scottish streets for the first time in decades in direct response to the increased terror threat, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.
Police marksmen have also been given the green light to use unmarked cars for firearms operations in another move aimed at better protecting the public from the threat of suicide bombers.

Security experts last night welcomed the development, saying it could help avoid potentially fatal confusion and delay in anti-terror operations where plain-clothes surveillance teams track suspects while uniformed firearms officers wait out of sight.

It is believed that under the Scottish plan – dubbed "covert physical detention" – firearms officers in civilian clothing will be able to keep in very close, constant contact with suspects and, in extreme cases, open fire at a time and place that reduces the risk to innocent civilians.

But critics of the new policy complained that it had been introduced without public consultation and warned it could increase the risk to the public and even result in separate firearms units opening fire on each other.

The revelation follows anti-terror raids across the north-west of England last week, in which a dozen men were rounded up.

Scotland on Sunday can reveal that with the assessment of the terror threat north of the border remaining at "severe", Strathclyde's chief constable, Stephen House, and his force executive recently approved the new policy of plain-clothes firearms officers and their use of unmarked cars.

Tactical firearms and armed response units have been in uniform since their creation in the 1980s and, until now, have always travelled in marked police vehicles. Insiders confirmed the new tactic would allow armed officers, disguised as members of the public, to trail dangerous individuals.

Previously unarmed surveillance officers, should they have needed armed support, would have had to wait for uniformed colleagues to arrive. A former senior firearms officer said: "Basically, we are talking about the boys going into civvies."

One source close to UK special forces said: "This is a considerable departure. Plain-clothes armed officers have previously only been used in extreme circumstances where there is a major threat, such as Northern Ireland or the Middle East. Scotland, until two years ago – at Glasgow Airport – had never really had a terrorist incident and this is a sign that things have changed."

Strathclyde, which covers almost half the population of Scotland, yesterday declined to comment on its tactics.

Some police insiders, however, have long argued for plain-clothes armed officers to return. One advocate is Graeme Pearson, the former director of the Scottish Crime and Drugs Enforcement Agency. Pearson, now a professor at Glasgow University's Institute for the Study of Serious Organised Crime, said: "This seems to me to be a safer option for intervention, which will allow officers to have a greater level of control over a situation and, hopefully, allow them to do so without using violence."

Bill Aitken, the Conservatives' justice spokesman, said: "This is unfortunately a sign of the times."

His Labour counterpart, Richard Baker, said: "I think that people will recognise that sometimes the police have to use covert tactics."

The Liberal Democrats' Robert Brown said: "This is a policy issue on which there should be consultations with the police board and government.

"Politicians, who are answerable to the public, should be able to express views on this."

Patrick Harvie, the Green Glasgow MSP, said: "I think, for the sake of police accountability, they should be consulting on changes like this."

Brown and Harvie were backed by John Scott, a lawyer specialising in civil liberties, who said: "It may well be that covert armed officers need to be available. But let's talk about it. Surely this is something for Parliament to debate?"

One security insider warned the use of plain-clothes firearms teams brought new risks. The source stressed that undercover armed officers would have to work extremely carefully to avoid being mistaken for suspects during any operation involving more than one agency.

Last night, Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said: "These are clearly operational matters for individual police forces, however we support them in ensuring they have the appropriate levels of security to respond to any potential threat to the public.

"The Glasgow Airport bombing showed that Scotland needs to be ever vigilant, and the police need to be in a position to protect our communities from such incidents."

Confirmation that the force had adopted two separate but related policies, the introduction of unmarked vehicles and the adoption of "covert physical detention", was inadvertently posted on Strathclyde's website last week.

• Yesterday, a judge gave police another week to question 11 of the 12 men seized in Wednesday's terror swoops. The 12th man, an 18-year-old, has been handed over to the UK Border Agency, which will decide whether or not to deport him.


The full article contains 821 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 April 2009 10:26 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Law and Order
 
1

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 00:17:21
Excuse me I do believe that Scotland rejected the gun culture some time ago: you can call it Dunblane in shorthand.

There is no terror threat that justifies unmarked Police Officers carrying guns, all you are going to do with this is encourage unmarked criminals carrying guns too.
2

Dark Lochnagar,

http://darklochnagar.blogspot.com 12/04/2009 00:46:52
This sounds like complete overkill. Excuse the phrase, but it obviously has it's roots in the past.
3

Teofilio Cubillas,

12/04/2009 01:08:37
#1

" There is no terror threat that justifies unmarked (sic) police officers carrying guns"

How do you know? There are a dozen Pakistani 'students' in custody 100 miles south of the border - how many are there in Scottish Universities and Colleges? Given that 20% of the UK infantry regiments fighting in Afghanistan are Scottish I don't think there would be any compunction about attacking a Scottish target.
4

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 12/04/2009 01:19:41
#1. "There is no terror threat that justifies unmarked Police Officers carrying guns, all you are going to do with this is encourage unmarked criminals carrying guns too."
What a load of garbage! Go back to your agenda and your whining and let those who know what they're doing do it. The criminals Scotland is likely to see will be suicide bombers and with any luck the victims will be halfwits like you who simply aren't up to speed on the carnage that a single suicide bomber can create in a public place. If an undercover cop can shoot one down before he explodes himself, he has my blessing. Remember how two of then nearly succeeded at Glasgow Airport? If you want to be a martyr, go for it and hang around public buildings where they're likely to strike, but don't blame those Scots who would just as soon stay alive with arms and legs intact.
5

Fifi la Bonbon,

12/04/2009 01:22:25
"But critics of the new policy complained that it had been introduced without public consultation..."

Just imagine -

"Madam, I'm making enquiries on behalf of your local police force to see what you think about police officers on anti-terrorist duty carrying firearms. Are you in favour or against?"

"What? You serious? If a policeman sees terrorists I expect them to blow their heads off."

6

Fifi la Bonbon,

12/04/2009 01:24:27
"Madam, what if the police officers on anti-terrorist duty carrying firearms are in plain clothes. Are you still in favour or against?"

"Well of course they need to be in plain clothes. Otherwise the terrorists will see them coming."
7

SW1,

12/04/2009 02:05:18
As i have said many times before....The herd will not work out what's going on until they are standing in line at processing camps under martial law.......maybe even then they still won't work it out.
8

SW1,

12/04/2009 02:09:37
Even when laws come in for a camera in every room of your house(which is the real reason for the super high broadband) and mandatory RFID tagging of the individual....you people will still not get the picture
9

SW1,

12/04/2009 02:22:42
I really think you should look up the definition of fascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

10

zeitgeist,

12/04/2009 02:23:34
All law abiding Scots that believe in a free democratic society must unequivocally reject this now. I cannot believe that this snp government is following the right wing fascist agenda now being pursued by NU labour. If this attitude of big brother government is continued by the SNP I and my family will not be voting for them at the next election. I thought that a new Scottish government would be able to stand apart from the lies and propagandist deceit that now categorises our wastemonster government, but with every passing day, I and others see no real difference! Beholden to a bankster and terrorist fear agenda is not what Scotland needs - this government should take note that many in our communities are heartily sick and fed up with this.
11

Fifi la Bonbon,

12/04/2009 02:26:53
SWI - you will be interested in a secret website detailing a terrible conspiracy by terrible dark forces involving the secret introduction of a deadly chemical into our environment?

Click on this link - http://tinyurl.com/cxuth9

But do it quickly - the forces of the New World Order are on my trail and the website will disappear very soon so they can hide what they are up to.

OMG - I can hear the sound of cars driving up to the house and there's footste
12

Fifi la Bonbon,

12/04/2009 02:27:42
#12 - it's just cops with guns. Makes you safer.
13

SW1,

12/04/2009 02:29:18
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/misc/fr)pass7.gif your European passport please
14

SW1,

12/04/2009 02:34:35
Fifa....as i said to you yesterday.....that link you put up is to a disinfo site designed to humiliate any visitor and bring about the mindset that any non mainstream media site is just stupid.
For an astroturfer....your an amature
15

Fifi la Bonbon,

12/04/2009 02:41:50
SW1 - I hope you haven't been humiliated and saw the funny side. Serves you right for following a concealed link on the internet. On the other hand, conspiraloons don't really have much of a sense of humour.

What's wrong with Scottish plain clothes cops carrying concealed firearms? Surely it's better than the horrible uniformed macho hulks you sometimes see strutting about like God's gift at the station? If I was a terrorist I'd clock them straight away.

You probably think there's no threat anyway and it's all a big put up job to hoodwink us sheeple, along with the faked moon landings and Princess Diana.
16

SW1,

12/04/2009 02:42:53
and to the knuckle dragger's in the various groups out there doing their bit for this......remember how Hitler thanked the Brown Shirts
17

Fifi la Bonbon,

12/04/2009 02:49:10
SW1 - well now you've brought Hitler into the debate, I must concede to you. I hadn't thought about Hitler. Now you've said it, you're right. Hitler. And the brownshirts. Yes, you were right all along. I thought I was winning the argument, but see here, you've raised the topic of Hitler. I can't compete with an intellect like yours. Hitler. Who'd have thought it?
18

Teofilio Cubillas,

12/04/2009 02:55:53
#14

Correct - it's just a cop with a gun. You know, just like they have in France, Spain, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and other civilized countries. Nothing to see here, move along now....
19

SW1,

12/04/2009 02:59:48
keep it up ladies.....even the brain dead that go for the bulk of our population must be questioning the effort you put into marginalising anyone who says something off message.....your actually doing a better job of waking the herd up than i am :)
20

SW1,

12/04/2009 03:05:29
and for the AN*L among you who live to point out spelling and grammar I meant to say.. you're ...in last comment......anyway I'm away for a couple of hours
21

W Smith,

Middle East 12/04/2009 03:31:56
So when the SNP supporters aren't excusing Gerry Adams expenses they're on line telling us their is no need for undercover police to carry guns.

There is more to Salmonds agenda than independence.

The problem with the incident at Glasgow Airport was that even the uniformed policemen didn't have guns.

I noticed that wasn't a problem for Salmond either.

BTW
Hamas leaders carry AK-47s but that doesn't stop Nicola Sturgeon supporting them now does it?

Strange how the SNP can't support anti-terrorist undercover Scottish police carrying guns.

Funny that.
22

The grime reaper,

In The Toon 12/04/2009 04:14:53
Again just watch this it's the truth
23

The grime reaper,

In the toon 12/04/2009 04:15:16
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+matrix-+part+1+full+movie&www_google_domain=www.google.com&emb=0&aq=0&oq=the+matr#q=the+matrix&emb=0&dur=3
24

Ex-pat Alfred WIck,

New Glasgow, Nova Scotia 12/04/2009 04:23:31
You have every right to protect your country and your people. Contrary to the party line, diversity is not strength. Don't become soft on the terrorists. Sir Winston Churchill would be rolling in his grave if he could see how soft the U.K. has become!
25

Johnnyf,

Portugal 12/04/2009 04:56:53
Looking at the comments, I just wish that you didn't treat this forum as a meeting place for? Total fo**ing Shoi*e again.
OMG - in a GODless Society!
Well, OMG plain clothed bobbies wi' guns, scary as?
26

Johnnyf,

Portugal 12/04/2009 05:10:46
Well, It seems that is the end of the night time banter.
Have to look for an argument somewhere else. Oh, eh ken, on the BBC website. Git a better class o' gadgie oan there onywaiy.
27

paddy fields,

Ayr 12/04/2009 05:18:09
SAS Officers today shot MI5 officers who were watching Special Branch Officers having a shoot out with undercover Police Officers who were following Customs Officers who went up the wrong close looking for a canabis factory in a single end in Paisley!
All were wearing Gucci hence the confusion !
28

gus1940,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 07:27:53
Thanks Tony Blair.

Prior to 11/9 and Blair's subsequent ascent of Bush's backside with the illegal invasion of IRAQ there was no government-acknowledged threat of islamic terrorism agains the UK.

If there was such a threat the government kept very quiet about it.

Think chicken aand egg.
29

The Trossachs Hasher,

12/04/2009 07:43:58
Is it just the police and politicians who think there is a terror threat in Scotland or does anyone else?

Also - is there any connection between what is starting to look like police overreaction/paranoia and the death of a drunken newpaper seller in London last week?
30

Mallory,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 07:53:04
Unmarked cop cars, concealed weapons? Hardly sporting behavour.

Next thing we'll have masked polis with no identifying numbers, non-jury inquests held in secret and big brother snooping on email, telephone calls and mail intercepts as it watches us on CCTV and records our movements.

And some folk worry about year old street views on Google!
31

Thomas Aikenhead,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 08:03:26
"Policing by consent" - Strathclyde Chief Constable Stephen House must justify his decision and the Strathclyde Joint Police Board is the correct forum for this.

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/YourCouncil/Council_Committees/JointBoards/policeboard.htm

The Board has thirty-four locally elected councillors representing the twelve councils covered by this police force, members of the public are not allowed to join so we rely on elected politicians to represent us.

Contact your councillor about this policy and inform them of your views, whether in support or not.

Please let us hope that we do not have to wait until there is a tragic incident before this policy is questioned, the 'Jean de Menezes' death showed the danger of allowing 'shoot to kill' policy being introduced without explicit political approval, the G-20 Ian Tomlinson death in London showed what unrestrained police action can lead to.

32

billengland,

12/04/2009 08:29:14
The Stalinist takeover of the UK is virtually complete.
33

madrab,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 08:40:44
And so the secret police are created.

Using Anti Terror legislation of course so the Scottish Government have no control over them.

How long before the show trials begin?
34

Helen,

12/04/2009 09:03:49
Look at how the police behave when they are given a baton. (G20 protests...) An innocent guy was murdered, and some high heid yin wants to give them guns!!!!
This is the worst thing that could ever happen. Trigger happy coppers going round with freedom to shoot. This is NOT what I pay taxes for, and I object to it happening.
35

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 09:28:06
5 I think you have been in Richmond too long and your gaelic ancestors would be ashamed of you. Read what I said again, half wit, there is no terrorist threat which JUSTIFIES UNMARKED Police Officers carrying guns. Stephen House came to us courtesey of the Metropolitan Police, they have form in shooting unarmed civilians. I don't believe that the vast majority of Scots agree that the rather pathetic and easily dealt with attack on Glasgow Airport justifies introducing elements of a Police state.

36

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 09:34:12
5 Real life criminals (as opposed to theoretical ones) have caused far more carnage on the streets of Scotland than the ''enemy within'' that the UK Government rely upon as an excuse for suspending civil liberties (which took centuries to win). No one has attempted to use them as an excuse to introduce US style Policing with unmarked Officers toting guns have they. ''let those who know what they're doing do it''.. such blind faith in authority is quite sweet, but not remotely convincing.

37

Boab,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 09:39:00
Confused. What did undercover police shoot Joseph de Menezes eight times with, if it wasn't guns?

By 2011, Britain will be spending £3.5bn a year on counter-terrorism, the Home Office has said.

There was a round-up of foreign nationals last week. No public trials, no evidence presented. As far as we know, all they were doing was mouthing off over the internet. Now there are armed police being deployed in the streets. No debate in parliament, no condemnation from opposition parties.

#37 Helen: good point. If the G20 police had been armed, it could have been Bloody Sunday again.
38

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 10:05:27
What a load of emotive nonsense. Foreign nationals 'rounded up' without a trial or evidence presented. Er, people suspected of serious terrorist offences and an ongoing inquiry. What do you want the police to do in this situation, nothing? I'm sure if it was a relative of yours killed or wounded in a terrorist attack your the sort to be first in the queue whining about how useless the police and security services are. Oh, and a traditional reference to Bloody Sunday. Do grow up.
39

Draco Was a Wimp,

Observer 12/04/2009 10:10:17
#39 Observer

What's touching is your belief in the spirit of fair play amongst the criminal element. You seriously belief they don't carry guns because the police don't? Oh please.
40

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 10:11:27
'' What do you want the police to do in this situation, nothing? ''

I expect them to do their job, for which I see no justification to turn British policing methods on it's head and introduce unmarked Officers with guns. It isn't necessary.
41

ferrox,

Aberdeenshire 12/04/2009 10:13:49
Security forces have always been armed as a necessity depending on the operation - what is scary is the police Muppets - yup the woolly suits - armed walking around in public places - "They receive special training" I have shot against these Muppets at Bisley and I can assure you I would hate anyone related to me being in the location where thy used an auto - which sprays the bullets essentially uncontrolled over a wide area.
Carrying arms becomes an operational necessity on occasions for special ops in order to PROTECT THE PUBLIC - these individuals are exposed to being killed or seriously injured on behalf of homeland security and the right of the UK population and individuals, we should support them - there are many aspects NOT divulged to the public and so it should be since this can alert other undesirable factions to events under way - they are our guys our country out people our wives children and friends for gods sake support them in what they are trying to do FOR US and ours.
You try to arrest someone and he hauls out a gun and you are unarmed, not only are you in a situation of exposure but your colleagues are also placed in jeopardy – they hall out a gun they are making a statement and live or die by that stated intent –so be it.
42

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 10:13:57
42 Oh I know they carry guns and they frequently use them. You are at far more risk in certain parts of Glasgow then you are from Al Quida. But if we arm unmarked cops you are just going to accelerate the use of guns, not diminish it, which should be the objective.
43

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 10:24:32
#45 Observer

How is arming police officers who currently aren't going to 'accelerate' the use of guns by criminals?That implies you think some criminals make the choice of not using guns because not all police officers are armed. By extension, if we took away ALL police access to guns there would be less use of guns by criminals? That's daft and you know it.
44

albanman,

12/04/2009 10:30:40
No.44 Ferrox: you list your location as Aberdeenshire but you use several expressions that are very much US Republican; are you perhaps from that part of the world rather than from here?
45

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 10:30:55
46 We are getting distracted here. My point is that we do not use unmarked but armed Officers against the real McCoy, people who DO have guns and who DO cause immediate harm to others. And there is no demand to introduce them either. Why then should we acquiesce in allowing unmarked but armed Officers to be placed on Scottish streets against a theoretical risk ? And Officers who would not be under the command of the Scottish Ministers who direct all the other Police activities in the country. It's divisive, potentially dangerous, and unnecessary.
46

Adamslie3,

12/04/2009 10:34:17
the latest indy paranioa is presented at post # 47:

".....I wouldnt be surprised if Brown is planning a bombing in Scotland...."

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeziz...you peepil are nuts.

I wouldnt be surprised if men in white coats came and took you away, indy!
47

Adamslie3,

12/04/2009 10:36:07
Observer, 49

Perhaps it would be better to wait for 200+ of us to be blown up before we take the threat seriously?

I mean....then it wouldnt be a theoretical risk.
48

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 12/04/2009 10:38:18
There's an additional problem with this that hasn't been considered.

A correspondent who is on these boards regularly and who goes by the nom de plume 'Nescit vox missa reverti' has proved following 40 years, yes 40 years, at university that ALL Police Officers in comparison with every member of every other possible occupation is classed intellectually as in the 'Special Educational needs' category.

However, he forgot to say what University he was at, the title of the study, what 40 year period the tests covered, whether it was Police in Scotland or the UK, or Europe or even the world, and also where the findings can be viewed. Must just be an oversight.

But can you imagine people of proven stupidity being given guns, or as they would no doubt call them 'bang bangs'? Frightening.
49

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 10:39:04
51 Are you familiar with the concept of risk assessment ? Or proportionality ?
50

Johnnyf,

Portugal 12/04/2009 10:39:57
#35 Why does it always come down to accusations of extreme left wing politics,"Stalinist". Aren't extreme right wing governments not police states also.I have recently seen video footage of American police ladling into female(young to grannies) anti-abortion protestors with batons. If you wish to see police over-reaction and brutality, look no further than the mighty US of A. The have made it an art form.
#37 Helen, exactly the point, the police are dangerous enough without being given a free range with guns. Does anyone remember the anti-Vietnam protest in Grosvenor Square and the thuggery masquerading as police officers.
#41 Telling someone to "grow up" for alluding to "Bloody Sunday". That occasion was exactly the worst kind of state murder, we so often condemn in other countries. It was a complete over-reaction by the state
enforcers and anyone who has watched the footage and taken the time to read about it cannot be of another opinion. It would be like refusing to believe that this is actually a Sunday. One cannot argue against black and white evidence.
51

The Ayrshire Bard,

12/04/2009 10:40:38
Anyone who enters this country with the intention of killing at random deserves to be shot like a rabid dog. We've allowed the beard and sandals brigade far too much latitude for too many years and we now have a very soft underbelly.
These terrorists have declared war upon us and if found in this country should be treated as spies or assassins and executed.
52

Bejjy,

Europe 12/04/2009 10:41:48
#1 & #45 Observer,,

Are you really devoid of any commonsense in talking some of the garbage that you do. If a plain clothes police officer in an unmarked police car is armed how is anyone else to know that he or she is a police officer and armed. Terrorism is a real threat in the UK whatever you say and as other comments on here have pointed out 20% of the military serving in Afghanistan and Iraq are Scots so Scotland is a potential target for terrorists; remember Glasgow airport? You should be supporting the police and security services in their efforts of protecting the public from terrorist whatever way they go about it. You would be one of the first to criticize the security services if thousands of your fellow Scots were killed in a terrorist atrocity.
53

Active Sassenach,

Luton, England 12/04/2009 10:42:23
Position 58 in the comments, at the time of posting, probably ensures a non-read. But I want to go on the record and keep this article.

The last time armed officers were deployed on the streets in response to a known threat (let alone the possibility of one) was when an innocent member of the public was shot in the back on the London Underground.

That collateral damage would have been bad and tragic enough if a prompt conviction of terrorists on a specific plot had been obtained and therefore other lives saved. However, at the inquest into the death, the Coroner and the Jury showed severe distaste for the Police evidence. Had the Coroner not withdrawn the verdict of unlawful killing the Jury would have returned it.

Now we have the Ian Tomlinson death. Sadly, although the IPCC investigation is not complete, rumours have surfaced of a lack of Police integrity at the time of the death as what they said seems to have been undone by later video evidence.

The more armed officers, the greater the risk of a misjudgement and the unjustified death of an innocent person. We have an unarmed Police force. The Police have shown themselves unfit to be an armed force. Putting 100 concealed guns on the street is not worth a couple of micrograms of accurate intelligence and getting it is where the money should be spent.

The parents of Jean-Charles de Menezes, tragically bereaved of their son (and on Easter Sunday too) now have the horror of knowing that he died in vain.
54

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 10:50:33
#49 Observer

Woah, woah here. You can't just change your argument. First of all it was to argue against MORE officers having guns because that would encourage MORE criminals to carry guns (whether that's terrorists or normal, respectable criminals with a sense of fair play). Now you're saying you're against PLAINCLOTHES officers carrying guns. It makes no difference. The rules for using them remains the same, the consequences of using them remains the same. Either we need armed police, uniformed or otherwise, or we don't. Unfortunately we do. The law, as always, is so ineffectual and weak, that there is no deterrant to carrying and using guns.
55

Teofilio Cubillas,

12/04/2009 10:52:39
#44 "I have shot against these Muppets at Bisley and I can assure you I would hate anyone related to me being in the location where thy used an auto - which sprays the bullets essentially uncontrolled over a wide area."

Stop making comments up. Police weapons in the UK HKMP5 and G36 don't have fully automatic (or three shot burt)capability - all are single shot only.
56

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 10:54:01
56 I don't see how deploying unmarked armed Police Officers is going to prevent my fellow citizens from being blown up. I do think that withdrawing from Iraq and Afghanistan, where we shouldn't have been in the first place, will lessen the risk of my fellow citizens being blown up. I also think that the deployment of unmarked armed Police Officers will increase the risk of innocent civilians being shot. I don't think I'm the one who lacks commonsense.
57

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 10:57:45
59 If we need armed Police Officers to deal with specific risk - and we do - then they should be clearly marked. This is the thin end of the wedge, if we allow unmarked Officers to carry guns in response to the risk from terrorists, we will soon have them on the streets in response to the real risk from criminals. If more cops carry guns, more criminals will carry guns. Look at the US.
58

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 10:59:54
#54 johnnyF

Can I ask what your solution is? Or do you just like to vent your puerile theories without having thought of an alternative? If the police so 'dangerous', and therefore a problem, you must have an alternative. Either we have no police Force, which is a rational, but untested, alternative. Or we change the system we have and replace it with some sort of alternative. If the police are 'dangerous', I presume you think that all or most police officers aren't to be trusted and shouldn't hold the offices they do. Presumably you think they're all or mostly inherently bad/violent/dishonest bullies. Common sense would suggest you think we sack or jail them all, as would I if I thought they were such a bad lot. Your alternatives/solutions please or are you just content to spout vacuous student slogans?
59

Johnnyf,

12/04/2009 11:03:18
I quite agree with #59's comments on the law being week, sentencing of offender's is a joke in this country. There has been recent talk of Peter Sutcliffe being released after killing 13 women, the man would have done around two years for each life he took. At least in USA, life means life and had he been there, he would have received life for each murder.
We need a much stronger detterant for would be offenders. Unfortunately, any serious surveillance etc. is seen as a gross infringement of our civil liberties. People in UK make your minds up.
60

Los Angeles,

12/04/2009 11:03:48

You have to question the veracity of this latest "emergency."

Who can believe the rotten disreputable UK government on any matter?

They intended to time the raid to cover the mcBride revelations but that got undermined by a dozy detective.

Keep in mind we have armed police at airports every day of the week, and main railway stations, and they carry machine guns.

Until we are independent we shall have to accept the scare tactics of Westminster are serious attacks on Scotland's integrity.
61

open,

west coast 12/04/2009 11:04:19
What is amazing about this article is how so many comments support armed cops in Scotland. Are those commentators part of the system ?
With the De Menezes murder and Tomlinson death at the hands of G20 cops how anyone can trust British, never mind, Scottish police is incredible.

We have a police force NOW out of control, knowing that if they shoot an innocent victim the IPCC or Police regulatory bodies will find in favour of the police stance.Even the new Scottish Police Commissioner has moved jobs after only a short period with little publicity.

Our group have many victims of police brutality . Anyone who is yet to face the forcible eviction policy of Scottish cops, who have for years been aiding and abetting the ILLEGAL removal of families from their homes, cannot truly understand the police state we are living in.

We have police spending endless amounts of time implicated in family/civil court judgements that allow the Scottish legal system to ruthlessly control Scotlands wealth using NO JURY courts and sheriff officers and police as the thugs that despicably remove families from their homes.

British police no longer protect the public but are merely another arm of the judicial thuggery and legal mafia that continue to destroy the lives of thousands of Scots each year with impunity , supported by the political mafia at Holyrood.


LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS

CIVIL TRIAL BY JURY ANYTHING ELSE IS TYRANNY
62

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 11:05:55
#62 Observer

So presumably you're with johnnyF and the other headbangers like Helen who basically think the individuals, or most of them anyway, who VOLUNTEER to be armed, aren't to be trusted? They must be marked and floodlit to be SEEN to be carrying weapons to be trusted to use them lawfully and responsibly. I take it, otherwise, they'd just go about killing people because they're more likely to get away with it?Basically you just don't trust the police and the INDIVIDUALS who are in the police. Oh, and I see its back to being the police's fault that more criminals are armed. They encourage it by protecting themselves and the public. I disgree with you on many things but I've not ever thought you foolish. I do on this one.
63

Boy Wonder,

12/04/2009 11:06:46
Armed cops = unmitigated public disasters and murders whitewashed by the IPC.

Armed PLAINCLOTHES cops?? Start this carry-on and soon we'll all be carrying guns for "self-protection".

Have we already passed the peak of our civilisation? Because this is the downhill slope we're on if guns become more prevalent again!
64

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 11:10:09
#66 open

Can you have the courage of your apparent convictions? So, the cops who, sadly, killed Jean Charles de Menezes murdered him? They KNEW he was unarmed and wasn't going to kill them and the other people on the train yet they DELIBERATELY killed him? You believe that?
65

Bejjy,

Europe 12/04/2009 11:11:52
#61 Observer,,

More claptrap; Most European police forces openly carry weapons and there isn't the paranoia in those countries that you and a very few more of your ilk are displaying. Plain clothed and armed police officers whether in unmarked police cars or on foot have been deployed in major cities in the UK (London and Manchester) for many years now and are there to observe any potential threat and to deal with it, hopefully, before it happens. I accept that mishaps can and do occur and that innocent people become victims but thats a price that we pay for democracy. I suggest that your views are totally out of touch with public opinion and that most people want protecting from the threat of terrorism whatever it takes to provide that protection. And may I say, isn't it rather pointless and infantile in keep banging on about illegal wars, etc.; which you do constantly. Thats past and gone and people's greatest concern is about the here and now.
66

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 11:12:49
#64 johhnyF

I think it's you who need to make your mind up. You want the law enforced but don't trust the people who volunteer to enforce it as a group of people they're all 'dangerous'. Who's going to do it then? Muppet.
67

Active Sassenach,

Luton, England 12/04/2009 11:27:19
#69, Draco: If the Coroner, at the inquest into the death of Jean Charles de Menezes, had not withdrawn the verdict of unlawful killing, the Jury would most likely have returned it. If they had, further investigation would have determined if a charge of murder or manslaughter could have been brought.

As it was we had to settle for a Health and Safety conviction of the Metropolitan Police for failing to organise its affairs so as to protect the public and then Ian Blair's decision not to tender his resignation on that account.

If the Scottish Police have assessed the balance of risks from a terrorist threat against the risks of collateral damage, putting 100 concealed guns on the streets does not give adequate weight to what they should have learned from the de Menezes case.

Arming police gives the victory to the terrorists. But, if we are going to arm Scottish Police, then they must carry weapons on display so the public can keep out of their way.

I have never tried to detonate a suicide bomb so I do not know if I could do it before someone could draw a weapon and shout "Armed Police" - but I expect a trained seeker after martyrdom could.

#61, those European countries that routinely arm their Police do so openly. They also have cross fire accidents in which innocent people are killed. Criminals therefore are also routinely armed.
68

Act sensibly,

Soft Touch Britain (Scotland) 12/04/2009 11:30:41
We in Scotland have become seriously soft touch. We are a very open and inviting society. An element of the Muslim community is currently forcing this erosion of our Civil liberties and Human Rights. The accountability for any actions taken by terrorists will ultimately lie with our over stretched police and the Government. They are not at fault for Muslim extremists. Iraq is not Pakistan! When is proper dialogue with Scottish Muslim leaders going to start? Presumably, they are not anti Scottish/British? The longer established population of Scotland or the UK cannot take all the blame for poor relations between communities- we have welcomed British Muslims and much of their culture. Many of the recent racist attacks in our cities have been perpetrated by Muslims against whites (e.g. Southside of Glasgow). Extreme prejudice is more a two way problem. In Scotland in coming years we may increasingly see the race relations problems that have blighted England, Germany and France for so long. Scotland and the UK needs to be clearer about what is acceptable in our society. The equality of women and children is paramount.
69

Johnnyf,

Portugal 12/04/2009 11:32:30
#64
I strongly object to being called a "headbanger" and a "muppet". With two degrees and a PhD, I have never thought I was in either category.Why is it that people with right wing view always resort to name calling. Try some anger management therapy, Mate.
Volunteer? Handsomely paid with early retirement more like. I have no objection to the average policeman who in the main I have found to be helpful and conscientous, however there are some right bigoted b******s there as well.
70

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 11:34:58
#72 Active Sassenach

I haven't a clue why the police officers, from those that killed de Menezes to the upper ranks, lied about what happened. Presumably because they were afraid of the ensuing kicking they would have got from the armchair warriors like you or the infallible John Snow and his ilk in the media. They had no need to, a horrible and deadly mistake happened. I ask you if you believe, that aside, that the police officers deliberately killed de Menezes, KNOWING he was not a threat to them or anyone else on the train? If yes, I can't gainsay your opinion. If not, grow up. Oh, and by the way, they shot him IN THE HEAD not the back. They probably had to look in his scared eyes and kill him. You got the b*lls to do that for your fellow citizens?
71

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 11:39:47
#74 JohnnyF

I don't know what two bit institution handed out your two degrees and your PhD but it clearly wasn't one that taught you reasoned argument. And as I suspected, if you'd spent more time in the real world rather than reading about it, you might be able to come up with an adult alternative. Mate.
72

Johnnyf,

Portugal 12/04/2009 11:47:14
Oxford and Berklee in Boston actually. The PhD was a practical application, but you're still name calling, rather pathetic.
73

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 11:52:35
#77 JohhnyF

I'm sorry, I'm SO impressed. What was it, a practical application of left-wing cliches? For a man who, no doubt, rails against the bigotry and discriminatory thought of the Right, you generalise quite a bit yourself. Mate.
74

TA1,

perth 12/04/2009 12:02:48
#4 There are only 11 - one has been released without charge - but into the hands of immigration authorities. Why is this? They weren't arrested on immigratioin grounds.
And what about theose that were arrested fromt he Gaza convoy a month or so ago? 9 arrests, 6 released without charge fairly quickly - what about the other 3? Havewn't heard much about them. Are they being prosecuted or have they been released - Hmmm 9 highly publicised arrests - no procsecutions but with no publicity - keeps the fear factor up, doesn't it?
75

Johnnyf,

Portugal 12/04/2009 12:03:03
Oh, and sarcasm as well. This is upposed to be a debate about armed police not a personal slanging match.
Oh well, have to go off and have a read, book? "General Principles of Guerilla Warfare" by Che Guevara. Just kidding, have an enjoyable and peaceful Easter Sunday, no, seriously.It would be terrible if we all had the same opinions.
76

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 12/04/2009 12:12:38
I dont see the need for Police in Scotland to carry Guns as Scotland will never be attacked as we are paying protection moneys to these agents I would also Like to see scotland a military free zone all armed forces should be taken out of scotland and there families and that would make Scottish society safer but whilst we have paramilitarys here we are in danger of these trigger happy cowboys
77

,

12/04/2009 12:23:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

ZipptJeffrey,

Castle 12/04/2009 12:33:25
There was a LOT of criticism when Steve House got the top gig at Strathclyde Police. The ywas rumblings that he got the post because MI5 put pressure on the police board to appoint him.

The reality is that House isnt their to prote ct the people of Strathclyde . He is there to carry out the fearmongering of the London establishment. House has brough all the bad habits of the Metropolitan police up to glasgow and all that it entails (dirty tricks corruption, passing on crime reocrds to unchecked staff etc)

also the fact that Strathclyde Police is not being held accountable for its actions by the scottish parliamnet is a very very worrying trend that smaks almost of paramilitarism in a civillian police force. Glasgow and Strathclyde is not london, and its not Belfast. So what CC House is doing is to turn Strathclyde Policeinto a paramilitary organsiation to the detriment of Scotland. Scotsman do an article on the meetings between CC house and the unanted and unneeded Scottish MI5 regional office in Glasgow.
79

nSyratzcGlaw,

12/04/2009 12:47:55
"in direct response to the increased terror threat, "

Really ?
80

yockel,

12/04/2009 13:08:00
"Security experts last night welcomed the development"
How about naming one or two of these experts so we can make up our mind about their credentials as experts.
The logic for plain clothes and firearms in certain circumstances seems clear but this appears to be a proposal for such activities as a matter or routine. As the expert said and I have to agree, "Basically, we are talking about the boys......" and that's the problem.
81

Blackie,

overseas Aberdonian 12/04/2009 13:10:29
What has happened to Scotland. Wake up, times have changed. Britain has allowed uncontrolled immigration that is undermining our culture and way of life. It is like a disease spreading through Europe. The person who thinks that terrorist threats will go away if our troops all come home is a nutter. The extream fringe has the objective of destroying Christian civilisation. I wish we had Britain of the 1950's but our police now need to defend us and themselves, not just against these foreigners but the scum on our streets. God, lets hope for no further attacks on British soil, however I am not blind and it's comming.
82

Blackie,

12/04/2009 13:18:37
Oh, by the way Happy Easter. I don't see that mentioned in heathen Britain. There is one thing I see where I live now, that of a strong Chritian faith that seems to have eroded in Britain. Churches for bingo and pubs. I love my native land but am now glad I live here.
83

Blackie,

12/04/2009 13:23:01
If a nation forgets it's Christian roots it deserves to eventually fall to Islam, which will lead to loss of British democracy. Jail them and deport them.
84

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 13:23:54
67 I think that Police Officers should be marked as firearms officers as much for their own protection as anyone elses. If you can't see the risks associated with criminals/terrorists being unclear as to whether an Officer is armed then I don't think you've thought it through properly. The assumption will be that they are armed whether they are or not.

We are not used to associating the Police with guns unless in specific contexts and with clearly marked Officers doing the job they are trained to do. I see no reason for that to change. As I said earlier I think this is divisive, potentially dangerous, and above all unnecessary.
85

Thistledhu,

12/04/2009 13:51:15
There is some rubbish being spouted here but here is the simple realistic facts

There has been a seriouse terrorist incident in scotland

This was carried out by a well resourced Al -Queda cell

are they alone allmost certainly not will they strike again yes they will

How do we get them to continualy look over there shoulder?

have a covert armed capability its that simple
86

Budgie,

INCHINNAN 12/04/2009 13:55:06
Blackie makes some good points, but he makes the same mistake as so many others in believing that Easter is a Christian festival. Irrespective of its adoption by many Christians, it is a Pagan festival.
Check out "Ishter" if you doubt what I say.
As for those who object to armed police on our streets to protect us from these Islamic terrorists, Blackie justifiably refers to them as "nutters".
87

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

12/04/2009 15:00:39
So will these cops fire at will or will they have to wait the command of a senior officer?..

91...Aye...for the religious they should stick to "Resurrection Sunday"...being a heathen pagan I'll stick to scarfing walloping great symbols of godless fertility....yeehah!
88

lord nelson,

South Carolina 12/04/2009 15:01:27
#1 Observer, criminals are always unmarked and they always carry guns, you forget Lockerbie, I had family on that plane. I am an American and I don't want that to happen again, anywhere. There are marshals on every plane with guns and thats good, thats the nice guy on the plane by you with the cheery smile.
89

Statsman,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 15:36:44
Once they have the guns they will be used on non-terrorist 'suspects' all the time. One excuse is always used to set the precedent then the powers are used for something else. For example, a pensioner heckling Jack Straw at a Labour party conference becomes a 'terrorist'.

Sure as night becomes day, some person that disagrees with the government and has no violent intent will get shot. It's big brother's way of telling us to shut up.
90

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 12/04/2009 15:47:13
38Observer.
You must live in a fantasy world.
I would like to point out that I have seen what you never have - determined suicide bombers, often well-dressed pretty young women, blowing up cafes and bars filled with members of the public. When you stand in the rubble, watching the blood dripping off the walls and trying not to step on the hunks of meat underfoot, you may have cause to rethink your ludicrous position.

Had the attack on Glasgow been carried out by bombers who knew how to set up their equipment correctly, hundreds might have died. In other words, Glasgow got lucky. I have no doubt that had the attack been successful, you would have condemned the police for not having stopped it with one last glorious suicide baton charge as the car exploded.
As for my Gaelic ancestors, they did what few invading armies have done; on their way south into England they obeyed Lochiel's orders to leave Glasgow unlooted and undamaged and to this day the bells of Glasgow are rung whenever Lochiel's descendants officially enter Glasgow. It was a good order, as your trained bands had already fled like the cowards they were, while your ancestors were no doubt hiding in their basements, sniveling with fear. My ancestors, at least those still living in my lifetime, have never been ashamed of me, and I have given them no cause to be.
And as you're on this "Ban the Gun" kick, how about disarming our young Scottish soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and telling them to protect themselves with a Glasgow kiss or a swift kick up the Khyber?
91

Tartan Viking,

12/04/2009 16:08:27
Jackboots Smith's Britain
92

Greyhound Welfare,

South Wales 12/04/2009 16:30:41
How many times have plain clothed police shot dead innocent people and injured others. Once they have these concealed weapons they act like the criminal the police are supposed to project us from. I see no reason why Firearms police in uniform should not carry guns but visible. Haveing police whether in uniform or not with concealed weapons places the unarmed police at serious risk from armed criminals who will shoot firsr just in case that policeman has a gun hidden on him. We are getting as bad as the USA without the right of citizens to arm themselves in their own homes. Ted
93

ferrox,

aberdeenshire 12/04/2009 16:50:42
re comment 44/48 No I am absolutly a scot.
94

Number 6,

Germany 12/04/2009 16:57:54
IN Germany, and I suspect, the majority of countries, Police openenly carry their firearms in a hip holster. This clear visibility adds to their authority and is a huge deterrent to criminals.

Provided the Police are properly trained, there is no problem.

Britain should try and move forward, accept that you must take a firm hand to beat crime. Germany's no nonsense Police certainly makes Germany a much much safer Society than Britain's.

Britain's crime figures are the worst in Europe.Have you ever wondered why?
95

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 17:17:31
#98 Number 6

That's easy. Too many liberals with disproportionate influence. Too many lawyers on the make. Too many laws and no Justice.
96

lazybinman,

Fife 12/04/2009 17:21:58
Can Someone please explain to me why, we quite merrily go abroad on our holidays/business, and we see Police officers wandering round with big weapons, and we think nothing of it. Yet. Someone says we are going to give British police officers weapons, and you would think it was the end of the world.
Get a grip people. That plain clothed copper may save your life one day!!
97

P Rayner.,

London. 12/04/2009 17:25:31
Britains crime figures are , I suspect , largely the result of mass , uncontrolled ,immigration from Africa and the Carribean , much as it has been , with the adition of latin American immigration , with the USA . That the police will in the end need to be heavily armed I have no doubt but this is likely to be in response to soaring violent crime . The irony of a liberal society is that it contains within it the seeds of its own demise . I am myself opposed to the concept of armed police and the death penalty but ultimately the salvation of liberal society might depend on these regrettable steps .
98

Hardrations,

Canada 12/04/2009 17:34:27
100 lazybinman,Fife 12/04/2009 17:21:58 You put it fairly well lazybinman. Society needs protection and your not going to get it by tut tuting and whinging about the police being armed.
99

P Rayner.,

London. 12/04/2009 17:37:49
100 . Actually we don´t all merrily go about abroad thinking nothing of armed police . I admit it was some thirty years ago but I remember comparing the ugly sight of an armed French policeman in France with that of a bobby back in Britain . Perhaps times have changed since then , but not much . My impression was of an over powering bully in France , but of a reassuring presence of authority in Britain . Ofcourse too I recall being stopped by Spanish police for not wearing a seat belt . Then a policeman with a machine gun stood twenty yards behind the car while the officer speaking tome had hand on gun .This for a seat belt infraction . This is one problem of armed police .Ofcourse armed criminals need to be opposed by armed police but citizens driving through a red light ought not .
100

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 17:44:01
#100 Lazybinman

It's an issue for folk because to accept it is to tacitly accept we've lost the fight against crime. We used to be a country where all a cop needed to protect himself and the public was a wee bit wood and a whistle. Now the polis need stab vests and sub machine guns.
101

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 17:50:23
94 Firstly you have no idea what I have or have not seen so your comments about hunks of meat is irrelevant as well as melodramatic. Glasgow airport was not the intended focus of the bombers attack. They panicked and drove there as the security services were on their case. So to attempt to use that as an excuse for introducing unmarked firearms officers to Scotland's streets is unjustified. Turning current Policing methods on their head as a result of a hysterical knee jerk reaction to the terrorist ''threat'' which Stephen House has been pushing like crazy ever since he got here, is not going to protect Scottish citizens. Clever Policing and intelligence will do that, if anything will. Mainly removing our soldiers from where they have no business to be would protect both them and us from harm.

I am not opposed to firearms officers. I am opposed to covert firearms officers as that will make the situation more dangerous both for civilians and also for the officers themselves.

I would rather leave the panicking to the unsuccessful Airport ''bombers'' rather than join in myself. We didn't find it necessary to introduce half the measures the Govt have introduced recently during the height of the IRA bombing campaign, so why do we need to introduce them now.

102

Nellie,

Liverpool 12/04/2009 17:52:22
Uh? A couple of guys I used know 10 years ago, who were in the Special Branch, they routinely carried pistols during the course of their duties. So, what's new?
103

Bejjy,

Europe 12/04/2009 18:07:49
#105 Observer,,

Why you need to persist in banging on about not needing to have armed plain clothes police officers and security services officers in the fight against terrorism I don't know when so many posters here today are telling you that its been happening for a long time and was operational procedure as far back as in the troubles in Northern Ireland. The vast majority of British people want protection against terrorism whatever it takes to provide that protection.You obviously don't feel that need so I presume that you or your family will not be laying blame at anyone's door if you or a member of your family are maimed or killed in a terrorist atrocity committed in Scotland.
104

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 18:43:26
107 '' One source close to UK special forces said: "This is a considerable departure. Plain-clothes armed officers have previously only been used in extreme circumstances where there is a major threat, such as Northern Ireland or the Middle East. Scotland, until two years ago – at Glasgow Airport – had never really had a terrorist incident and this is a sign that things have changed."

If they are basing this'' considerable departure'' on the Glasgow airport incident then it is not justified.

105

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 18:58:24
#107 Observer

You seem to have lost over this. Your assertion that, for some reason, a uniformed firearms officer is somehow less likely to be shot by an armed criminal or terrorist than a plainclothes one is strange enough, but your idea that just because Glasgow airport wasn't the terrorists first choice of target it makes it somehow less dangerous is, frankly, bizarre. Why else would anyone drive a car loaded with gas cannisters at a terminal full of holidaymakers? Were they trying to check in?
106

Bejjy,

Europe 12/04/2009 19:01:52
#108 Observer,,

OK, this may be a a significant change in the approach to dealing with terrorism in Scotland but its not new to much of the UK, many European countries and, of course, the USA. I was involved in security operations in Northern Ireland during the height of the troubles in the 70's and that then covert operations by armed plain clothed security personnel were the norm both in Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. As I said earlier, many British police forces have and do employ armed plain clothed officers in both the fight against organised crime and also terrorism and I can't believe that that hasn't also been happening in Scotland for some time.

BTW. If Glasgow airport was not the intended target of the suicide bombers, what was the intended target?
107

Bejjy,

Europe 12/04/2009 19:05:46
#109 Draco was a Wimp,

My sentiments entirely, were they trying to board a plane at Glasgow airport carrying a bomb in order to travel to London where their intended target could have been the Parliament building at Westminster.
108

as13,

Sunderland 12/04/2009 19:08:59
Sorry....I haven't read all the previous posts, as they were getting a bit repetitive!

I thought perhaps the most interesting part of the arguments was the people objecting to 'not being consulted' (even the politicians in the story whingeing about this being debated etc.) Also the point raised earlier about these police officers being under the command of westminster rather than holyrood?!

Surely the police are answerable only to the law itself? That's what the 'office of constable' refers to! The fact that an individual officer is an independent executor of the law.

So, if this is the case, why should politicians be discussing the tactics and methods used by the police? When the police come under control of government....that's when things start getting scary! Not when a select few officers are armed whilst in plain clothes!!
109

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 19:22:15
Draco.

We don't at the moment have plain-clothes Police Officers carrying concealed guns do we ? Now you might think that's a good or a bad thing, but the fact is that this if we do introduce plain-clothes Police Officers carrying concealed guns it's a change to the status quo. So the question is why ? If it is being claimed that the Glasgow airport incident is sufficient justification then I don't agree. I can't see how having plain clothes Officers would make any difference when you regularly see armed Police at airports and other travel centres, and no-one objects.

What operational advantage would a plain clothes Officer have been in that scenario ?
110

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 19:26:31
110 Bejyy - this isn't Northern Ireland. It's not even London. If the Police want to start routinely using unmarked officers and vehicles I think we are entitled to know why.
111

Bejjy,

Europe 12/04/2009 19:36:14
#114 Observer,,

Good God, you are enough to test the patience of a saint. The police want to use armed plain clothes police officers in the fight against terrorism. Scotland, even an independent one, is not insular from mainland Britain so what is to stop terrorists trying to enter the UK through Scottish airports which they might see as being an easier way of doing so because of the reduced security at these airports. I have read many reports over the years of illegal immigrants trying to enter the UK through Scottish ports and airports because they have seen them as being easier access points than those in England. You haven't answered my question; what was the intended target of the Glasgow suicide bombers?
112

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 12/04/2009 19:40:33
105 Observe:
I think you're an idiot who's been nowhere and learned nothing. Congratulations on not signing up for Iraq or Afghanistan - God forbid we should run out of pontificaters who know it all.
113

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 19:42:28
#113 Observer

I really, genuinely, can't see what the issue is. Yes, it's a change from the status quo but I can't see what difference it will make to the general public if the weapons are overt or covert. As a poster above says, there are Sky Marshals on planes to the USA and Canada (oh, and by the way on some flights to Germany as well) and the passengers are none the wiser, but safer. Cops carry guns all the time when their on plainclothes VIP protection duty and, again, its not an issue. I personally think the sight of all the cops with guns makes people MORE nervous.
114

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 19:44:04
115 I think they were supposed to be blowing up somewhere in London. I don't work for the security services so I don't know precisely where.

There is nothing to stop terrorists blowing up anywhere they want Bejyy. Look at Israel, it is one of the most security concious countries in the world and yet they still have to deal with terrorism. Or look at places like Chechnya, anywhere really. You don't actually stop terrorists by having men with guns. Sometimes men with guns encourages it, even if they are our men with guns.
115

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 19:47:08
116 How can one possibly argue with eloquence like that.

17 You didn't answer the question.
116

Bejjy,

Europe 12/04/2009 19:53:16
#118 Observer,,

115 I think they were supposed to be blowing up somewhere in London. I don't work for the security services so I don't know precisely where.

They set out on their journey to cause carnage from a location in West Yorkshire and travelled north to Glasgow where if they had wanted to go to London they would have to have travelled south. Are you saying that their Satnav broke down and that they got lost? I think, as others do that you have entirely lost the plot on this one.
117

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 19:56:06
#119 Observer

I suppose in the Glasgow airport situation, it would have made little difference if the cops were uniformed or plainclothes (though an armed officer of any sort might have saved the unarmed cops and members of the public from putting their lives at risk. I would have thought that not having a uniform on gives the cops an advantage of not being such an obvious target for the terrorist. And, as I say, its not so scary for wee grannies going to Majorca with the bowls club.
118

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 20:00:42
120 They were linked with the same people who tried to set off the bomb in London's Haymarket. I'm sure the coverage in the Sunday Herald at the time explained that Glasgow Airport was not the intended target, but I can't be bothered googling right now I might later.

I don't think it's me that's lost the plot although I am in the minority. I don't think this will do anything whatsoever to counter the terrrorist threat, after all no terrorist cause has been defeated at the end of the gun in any conflict anywhere. Solutions are always political. So what is this really about ?

119

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 12/04/2009 20:02:42
What utter drivel being spouted on here with regard to terrorists. Which terrorists are we talking about? There were no terrorists at 911 or 7/7. It was the UK and US governments that carried out these murders, anyone who thinks differently is a half-wit.

The Glasgow Airport bombers were clowns, not terrorists - this was just the sort of reaction our governments were looking for.

Why won't our government have an independent inquiry into the London Bombings, or the Iraq war for that matter, we all know why. See the video links for the truth on www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
120

Nellie,

Liverpool 12/04/2009 20:08:48
#112 as13 - Spot on the button, mate!

#113/114 - Observer. Well, that depends on what kind of plain clothes officer you're talking about! Your average CID or burglary squad detective ... probably not carrying. But your operational anti-terrorist/Special Branch officer? Probably depends on their area of responsibility but, as I said, I knew a couple of them (England-based) who were routinely carrying.
121

Bejjy,

Europe 12/04/2009 20:09:09
#123 Freddie and Bruno,

Good God, another one who can't face the reality of the situation and who just wants to sit and navel gaze. I've had enough, I'm off to commit an act of terrorism, I'm going to blow myself up thats if of course an armed plain clothes police officer doesn't shoot me first. Goodnight all I'm off for a wee dram or two, I need it.
122

Nellie,

Liverpool 12/04/2009 20:14:25
#123 Freddie and Bruno - if your evidence of conspiracy by the US and UK governments is so rock solid why don't you bring a private prosecution against the UK Government in a UK Court if Law, as is your right?

Come to that, if there was a conspiracy and you can prove it, how come you're not dead already?
123

Nellie,

Liverpool 12/04/2009 20:17:13
#125 Bejjy, get me in one as well - The Balvenie is my tipple.
124

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/04/2009 20:47:49
121 Once it is known that some cops are carrying guns there may be an assumption made that they all are, increasing the risk. But then again you might be right. I'm just suspicious of changes like these being brought in for a reason which appears spurious to me.

124 I'm just going by what's in the article. It seems to be a major change to Scottish Policing.

Anyway I'm off now I think I owe Bejyy a drink for being so annoying, shame he's not here I'd buy him one.

125

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 12/04/2009 20:56:19
#126 Nellie

If you were not so stupid and went and watched the videos then you would see that a Dr Judy Wood and a top American lawyer are already taking the American gvernment to court for putting out false information. She happens to be an expert in this field and is using the evidence that she has collated to bring them to court. Nothing to do with conspiracy, it is to do with hard facts. I look at all the evidence then decide what is true and what is not. Obviously you and Bejjy are to thick to do this yourselves, either that or you are qa
126

Freddie and Bruno,

Paisley 12/04/2009 21:08:01
#126 Nellie

Maybe if you actually go and watch the videos you will see that a Dr Judy Wood, an expert in Physics, is at this moment taking the US government to court for putting out false information regarding 911 with the help of a top American lawyer. Absolutely nothing to do with conspiracy just hard evidence and facts.

I look at evidence and base my judgement on that. I could list all the facts about 911 and 7/7 on here but they are too numerous. Either you and Bejjy are too thick to actually go and watch the videos and look for the other evidence yourselves or you are just apologists for the murderers in our governments.

We will be putting these links as well as the other stuff on that site through the doors here in Paisley soon so we will let the people know what is going on and let them make up their own minds.
www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
127

Fifi la Bonbon,

12/04/2009 21:20:21
#130 - if you are going to be putting leaflets through people's doors in Paisley to tell them about the 9/11 conspiracy, would you have space to tell them about an even bigger conspiracy?

The one that is all about the efforts by the New World Order to cover up the insidious growth of dihydrogen monoxide, a killer chemical that is widely used in the preparation of ilegal drugs, and is a crucial ingredient in many of Big Pharma's most egregious errors? It was centrally involved in many shipwrecks, most notably the sinking of the Titanic.

See http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html for details.

People must be told!
128

PJ,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 21:21:32
London, the West Midlands, Greater Manchester and Nottingham account for more than half of recorded gun crime in England, 34 per cent of recorded gun crime occurred in London, at a rate of 50 offences per 100,000 people.

Shotguns can cost as little as £50 to £200, guns are replacing knives as the weapon of choice among Edinburgh gangs criminals involved in the city's drug trade are among those carrying firearms. The fact is borne out in that we now have two armed response vehicles on the roads 24/7.

Contrary to the common assumption that Europeans are virtually unarmed, an estimated 84 million firearms are legally held in the EU. Of these, 80 per cent - 67 million guns - are in civilian hands, needless to say these do not count terrorists.

So what is the unarmed plainclothes cop supposed to do? “Hold on a minute…the armed response unit is on the way!
129

SW1,

12/04/2009 21:26:48
Comment@131 i will just copy and paste what i said to you earlier.....

Fifa....as i said to you yesterday.....that link you put up is to a disinfo site designed to humiliate any visitor and bring about the mindset that any non mainstream media site is just stupid.
For an astroturfer....your an amature
130

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 12/04/2009 22:19:06
Only when their savings, their house, their car, and their pension funds disappear into the New World Order derivatives black hole, (along with their privacy, their health and their freedom) will people like Fifi realise what's going on.
The "War on Terror" is a fraud.
This security crackdown isn't to do with Muslim extremists.
It's all for you, the surveillance, the camps.... all of it.
When the bankers and their puppet politicians relieve you of everything you own, these nice armed coppers will be the complaints department.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/5096524/The-G20-moves-the-world-a-step-closer-to-a-global-currency.html
131

PointOf View,

Bonny Scotland 12/04/2009 22:34:09
5 "If an undercover cop can shoot one down before he explodes himself, he has my blessing". Come in number five your medication awaits you. Hey,, why settle for one, why not go the whole hog and have several shoot him/her just like as in the case of Jean Charles de Menezes.
132

PointOf View,

Bonny SCotland 12/04/2009 22:35:44
6 Fifa, same message to you as in number 5. F/Wit
133

PointOf View,

Bonny Scotland 12/04/2009 22:41:09
9 SW1 Absolutely spot on.

Scotland wake up call.

http://www.tpuc.org/
134

PointOf View,

Bonny Scotland 12/04/2009 22:42:23
Ireland Wake up!

http://www.tpuc.org/
135

PointOf View,

Bonny Scotland 12/04/2009 22:42:49
England wake up.


http://www.tpuc.org/
136

PointOf View,

Bonny Scotland 12/04/2009 22:43:11
Wales wake up.

http://www.tpuc.org/
137

Nellie,

Liverpool 13/04/2009 00:44:41
#130 Freddie & Bruno.
Bully for Dr Judy Wood. Now you go put your money where your mouth is and prosecute the British Government. Then we'll see if the Court thinks Dr Judy and your evidence about the Brits stands up to scrutiny, or if it's just another hot-air conspiracy theory with as much substance as the Emperor's new clothes. Forgive my cynicism but we've heard these kinds of accusations before and very few of them stand up to scrutiny.
BUT where you may have a point is when Government knows about a terrorist attack in advance and chooses not to prevent it. That happened in N Ireland a few times and it probably happened over here, too. BUT there is nothing conspiratorial about that - it's about protecting your sources of information. "Steak Knife" would not have stayed alive and inside the IRA for so long had every piece of information he gave up were acted on. They would have had to let some of that go or he would have been lost as a source for the future. Ditto Brian Nelson.
138

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 13/04/2009 01:05:03
#141

"Forgive my cynicism but we've heard these kinds of accusations before and very few of them stand up to scrutiny."

How does this one hold up in your opinion ?........

"nano-thermite in the WTC dust"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbYwPQ9pTzk
139

itsjusthel,

Blackpool 13/04/2009 02:21:09
a quote from another page "Published Date: 13 April 2009
By Saeed Shah in Islamabad
A SCOTTISH Muslim convert, dubbed the "Tartan Taleban", has re-emerged in Pakistan where he has reportedly been arrested as a terror suspect." who said there are no terrorists in Scotland? get a grip, they are everywhere.
140

Jason,

13/04/2009 06:55:49
As a non-firearm culture, Brits, including police officers are simply not accustomed to handling handguns.
"Go ahead punk. Make my day." Without adequate training, all the police can do is fantasize about being Dirty Harry. Far more likely to shoot themselves in the foot.

141

billengland,

13/04/2009 08:49:17
#143

"they are everywhere"

You can say that again. The British government is full of terrorists, particularly the Scottish variety.
142

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 13/04/2009 12:04:40
MOST CRIMINALS ARE LABOUR SCUM,
ITS A SAD FACT BUT TRUE.

IF NOT,PROVE IT.

WITH LABOUR SCUM IN CONTROL OF SCOTLAND FOR 50 YEARS,
THEY MUST BE PROUD OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO SCOTLAND.

WE HAVE WILD,OUT OF CONTROL SCUM ROAMING THE STREETS.
THEY NEED TO KNOW WHO IS IN CONTROL,OUR COPS WILL DO MORE TO STOP THIS.
THIS IS JUST THE START.

THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND DEMAND BETTER.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!

143

,

13/04/2009 15:52:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
144

,

13/04/2009 15:53:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
145

DRZ400,

13/04/2009 16:30:53
#5 You must be off your head. Arm the ones who protect us and let them shoot the nut cases who are here with the intention of harming us. It is people like you who set this country back and let the criminals rule the roost!!!

 

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