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Only one in 13 police are on the beat in Scotland



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Published Date: 04 November 2007
ONLY 7.5% of Scottish police officers are available for frontline duties despite record recruitment, according to shocking new figures obtained by Scotland on Sunday.
More officers are on holiday or doing paperwork than are on patrol at any one time, the disturbing statistics from the Scottish Police Federation (SPF) reveal.

Scotland currently has more than 16,000 police - the highest ever - but a combination of holiday, rest days, paperwork, training, court duties and sickness means only a maximum of 1,200 are directly serving the public.

Years of mounting bureaucracy imposed by ministers are being blamed by the SPF for the scandal. They claim the 7.5% figure is a theoretical maximum and the true figure is nearer 5%.

The revelations will heap further embarrassment on the new SNP Government which recently watered down its election promise to recruit an extra 1,000 police officers. The SNP now claims the officers will be "additional", claiming they will be freed from other duties while keeping overall numbers stable.

Scottish police have previously refused to release figures for numbers of officers on operational duty for fear of encouraging crime and disorder. But the SPF is also locked in a pay dispute with the government and wants to prove officers are over-stretched.

The SPF says Scotland currently has 16,240 officers, of whom:

• 7.8% are on holiday;

• 31.4% on rest days.

• 16.6% in court, training, or off sick;

• 11% doing paperwork.

The remaining 33.2% are available for operational duties but have to be split into four shifts to cover a 24-hour period. Although that puts 8.3% on duty at any one time, the SPF say that comes down to 7.5% as a result of officers taken off the streets to process prisoners they arrest.

One officer, who asked not to be named, said: "To be honest, I'd put the figure nearer 5%. Sometimes stations are virtually deserted, especially if something big is going on in another division.

"Paperwork and ridiculous training courses take up so much time, but even more basic things like not having enough cells and having to transport prisoners across town just add to the headaches."

Norrie Flowers, chairman of the SPF, told Scotland on Sunday: "We have been saying these problems exist for years. Modern-day policing is much more complex than it ever was and this needs to be taken into consideration when staffing levels are looked at."

The SPF produced the figures as part of its response to a Scottish Parliament inquiry into the effective use of police resources.

Annabel Goldie, Scottish Conservative Leader, said: "When you see this evidence the scale of the SNP betrayal over its broken police pledge only grows.

"The evidence is depressing and paints a worrying picture of just how stretched the thin blue line has become.

"The money is there, there are young people who want a career in the police, the training college is underused and can turn out more than a thousand officers a year, the police want more resources, and the public wants substantially more police."

Norman Brennan, a former police officer and founder of the Victims of Crime Trust, said: "When I joined the force there was a bit of bureaucracy but if you arrested someone you could be back out on the beat within a very short time. Today, it can take you hours, even with the most-basic of arrests.

"We need a complete overhaul of the policing system in the UK and a return to commonsense ideas.

"If we could reduce paperwork by 50% then that would put more officers back out on the streets which is exactly what the public wants."

David Sinclair from Victim Support Scotland said the lack of a visible police presence on the streets was "obviously a concern". "The fact that there are just 7.5% of our police officers out on the streets at any one time clearly needs looking at," he said.

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "As we set out to Parliament just last week, we are committed to making 1,000 more officers available in our communities. But this is not simply about numbers on the payroll. It is about ensuring a genuine improvement in how policing is delivered in our communities. This will involve substantial additional recruitment but also improved retention and the smart redeployment of existing officers."

The full article contains 744 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 November 2007 10:08 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Law and Order
 
1

Kathy Athey,

Lewis 04/11/2007 00:19:08

• 16.6% in court, training, or off sick;

I wonder why that was grouped.

Is there a statistic it is preferred we cannot see?

S McC

2

Calum Miller,

Prestonpans 04/11/2007 00:27:26

Why lump "in court, training, or off sick" together? Neither the courts nor the training courses run at night so what is the % off sick? How do the sickness rates compare across the different forces, here and abroad? If the sickness rates are not being managed then little point in throwing another 1000 bodies at a failing system.

3

Jock MacSprog,

04/11/2007 00:38:17

hmmm, they do have time though to send 2 PCs to check why you havent renewed your tax disc on time. So they are excellent tax collectors. That is a priority after all, public saftey is at risk !

4

Boy Wonder,

04/11/2007 00:39:34

Well, it's not like we didn't know about this, if not the full extent of it!

And Hannibal the Cannibal Goldie jumps up tp point her finger at the SNP??

Wrong target, hen. Blame the previous administration for allowing things to get as bad as they have, that led to the SNP making the pledge.

The police needs to be forced to free up the men required to fulfil that pledge. After all, crime stats are going down, aren't they? They keep telling us that anyway!

5

Jock MacSprog,

04/11/2007 00:46:36

wonder what percentage of traffic wardens are "on the beat" at any given time. How is it that this particular "public service" is fully staffed and manages to blanket every square inch of our cities ?
priorities ?????

6

Union mutt,

04/11/2007 00:55:10

What is the snp government going to do about it...Or are they tied up with the St Andrews day celebrations

7

,

04/11/2007 01:05:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1113589, Article id was mapped to record!
8

Spotter,

04/11/2007 01:17:48

the SNP will sort out this shocking stat left by Labour

9

druidh,

04/11/2007 01:25:21

Let's see. 1,000 ADDITIONAL police officers, but a ration of 1:13 on the beat? That would mean only 77 visible beat policemen?? I think the SNP have it right by first of all ensuring we get that 1:13 ratio down to something ore sensible. Let's make better use of the resources we're already paying for.

10

Canada,

canada 04/11/2007 01:32:24

In my father's day and his brothers they came from the mines or the highlans and did the job. Effectively! Now they have women partners, no absolute use in a riot situation, any man will be looking after his weaker half, stress leave, maternity leave, sensitivity training: give me a break. When I was a bairn an the polis showed up, they commanded respect, we were feart and all was well. And we're all so victimised by it. Waken up Scotland.

11

Grandson of Winged Messenger,

04/11/2007 01:36:01

It would seem that this story proves that the SNP are right to abandon the alledged idea of employing 1000 "new recruits" (did they actually say new recruits in their manifesto?) and concentrate instead on redistributing existing personnell within the police force in order to obtain the goal of more cops on the street.

Perhaps it's about time that people (other than the partisan supporters like me) realised, and perhaps even acknowledged, that the SNP are governing rather well.

12

Geordie Peebles,

04/11/2007 01:43:09

I'm trying to work out Annabel Goldie's point here.

Is she just wanting 1000 extra police officers so that we can have only 1 in 14 police officers on the beat? She hasn't even addressed the issue of paper work and bureaucracy.


Andy Dufresne said "Where are the extra 1,000 police?"

Erm, is it 2011 already?


Union mutt said "What is the snp government going to do about it...Or are they tied up with the St Andrews day celebrations"

You may like to check out this site http://www.scotland.gov.uk

For this.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2007/10/29081843

And this.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2007/06/06094601


And this site http://www.scottish.parliament.uk

For this.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/officialReport...

"First, we will provide funds for substantial additional recruitment. I make it clear that additional recruitment will take place and that new bobbies will be on the beat. Secondly, I am only too aware that too many experienced and highly skilled officers leave the service at a time when they have much more to offer. Retaining their talents and skills, which cannot be taught in college but which can be learned on the streets, is vital, and we will retain them. Thirdly, we will enable existing officers to maximise their potential by cutting the red tape that has enmeshed them in recent years. We will allow our officers to protect, guard and patrol instead of being desk-bound, processing,

13

,

04/11/2007 02:02:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1113661, Article id was mapped to record!
14

thomas,

midlothian 04/11/2007 02:17:34

since mrs.thatchers time when, the police were legislated out of crime, and the running of the country handed to the professional classes, the police as an effective detterent to crime have been a.w.o.l. is it any wonder we have what we have?
grow up. get real. effective policing is what we need . not politicians saying what will happen. as soon as the police said ; you will need to contact a lawyer , this is a civil matter . we were done for!

15

Richardinho,

04/11/2007 02:19:49

11% of the time doing paperwork;

Given that this paperwork allows them to have a database of records which will may help them in future investigations, this doesn't seem a massive amount to me.

The actual statistic is one in thirteen AT ANY ONE TIME.
Given that 100% would mean all police officers working 24 hours a day with no holidays and no time spent in training, in court or doing paperwork-EVER- I think this statistic is a little( no, make that VERY-) misleading.

16

Richardinho,

04/11/2007 02:21:34

Incidentally, this also throws a different light on the SNP's stated intention to introduce 'the equivalent' of a certain amount of officers. Much ridicule was poured on this, but if changes could be made which made 26% of police on the beat at any one time, that would be as good as doubling the force.

17

Silver Shred,

In the jamjar 04/11/2007 02:30:29

This is an idiotic article! Rather than being a disclosure to "heap further embarrassment on the new SNP Government" it does precisely the opposite - demonstrating clearly that the first priority should be to re-deploy officers on the beat.

Clearly a concept too subtle for the somewhat feeble brainpower of the writing staff at SoS - though perfectly obvious to the rest of us.

18

Klempner,

04/11/2007 02:45:58

7 union mutt,You are aptly named
11 Canada
Political correctness in the UK has reached the point that where,although we may agree with what you say we cant actually admit it. ps I did not say that.

19

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 04/11/2007 02:57:26

# 19 and is that not pathetic .................

20

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA vote HILLARY CLINTON for US ..Pres 04/11/2007 03:36:02

Only one in 13 police are on the beat in Scotland
----------------------------------------------------

So what is the SNP (SleazeNationalParty) doing to correct this safety problem??

And how will an Indedpendent Scotland DEAL with this issue,

DUHhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOT a bunch of dreamers,

GC

21

49th State,

Cooking pop corn in the kitchen 04/11/2007 03:41:30

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. If you want more police on the streets, make sure you have plenty of doughnut and coffee shops out there for them. Officers on the beat are fickle, and their needs must be met by the community.

22

49th State,

Cooking pop corn in the kitchen 04/11/2007 03:43:04

#21

G C

Did you read the news about pot in Scotland, I thought it might be disturbing for you.

23

Guga II,

Rockall 04/11/2007 04:16:55

#21 Galactic Cornball. Why don't you try magic toadstools for a wee change?

24

T. MacIntosh,

Toronto 04/11/2007 04:36:45

#15
The motive to thatcher legislation of the cops out of crime was narcotics traffic.That is a well known fact here.She paid for it when the american feds caught her.Hard.
Maybe they should revamp the cop systems to where it doesn't take hours to process an arrest,then they can get back to the streets where they belong.Is there not an auxillary force there?
I hope it is clear the last thing english wants is an honest Scotland which has an identity of itself.

25

Gregorf,

04/11/2007 06:30:25

I blame the Welsh

26

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/11/2007 07:10:09

This ratio would improve if the SNP honoured its manifesto commitment.

27

an interested party,

04/11/2007 07:57:34

I am trying to think , even a corner shop open 12 hrs a day only serves the public 50% of the time, compared to a office based civil servant who servers the public less than a 33% of the time (not management clearly)

statistic being used to confuse again it would seem

whenever a police man is asked they always always
proffer , not enough resources, or cash or equipment
to enable them to do there job properly, mainly cause if they didn't folks might realise they already have that and just are badly managed.

28

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for any of them. 04/11/2007 08:14:28

40% of police are on restdays/holidays. So that leaves 60% available for duty (unless on a sickie). That yields a much higher perecentage of available staff actually on the beat. This is a silly statistic as it produces an invalid conclusion.

29

A Better Way,

04/11/2007 08:19:37

The numpties have done it again. Every week we get more evidence of the lack of ability the Numpties have to manage any parts of responsable Government. The Unionist clowns on this forum who would even attempt to justify the Actions of the LibDem/New Labour Government are simply liars who couldnt lie straight in bed. The lot of you keep justifying Independance from the Cabbage Unionist Parties who are more pre occupied with making pathetic attacks than what is good for Scotland than actually helping solve the problem. No Wonder the Unionist Political Parties are being shunned by the large majority of Scots. Get used to barracking for Unionists out of Government because as the two recent polls prove they wont be back in Government.

30

I'm no really here,

04/11/2007 08:24:40

We need BOTH more efficient use of the police AND more police recruited specifically for on-the-beat.

31

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 08:26:14

Clearly the SNP can't be blamed for this situation. NuLabs Stalinist inclination towards forms, statistics, beancounting, performance indicators and diversity recording have led to the situation where the police do more recording than doing. The restrictions placed on them in terms of human rights legislation are all NuLabs doing. The SNP can rectify this and truly get cops back on the streets , but I suspect they are all mouth and no trousers,

32

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 08:33:40

#4 Jock MacSprog

I hate to remind you, but corroboration is one of the fundamentals that makes Scots Law different from English as was guaranteed by the 1707 treaty. I'd have thought the Nats would consider this a sacred cow and that any proposed change to make our law more like England's would have set off a great gnashing of teeth (imperialist oppression, destruction of Scots institutions blah, blah)

Agree with you re the traffic wardens though. Living in central Edinburgh, I can go days without seeing a cop (let alone on foot) but the blue meanies go around in packs. I often wonder why the council can manage to provide this 'service' so well.

33

BM,

Scotland 04/11/2007 08:35:45

True email sent to the Police in Leith. (Anonymised correspondence from a member of the public.)


Dear Sir/madam/automated telephone answering service

Having spent the past twenty minutes waiting for someone at Leith police station to pick up a telephone I have decided to abandon the idea and try e-mailing you instead. Perhaps you would be so kind as to pass this message on to your colleagues in Leith by means of smoke signal, carrier pigeon or ouija board.

As I'm writing this e-mail there are eleven failed medical experiments (I think you call them youths) in West Cromwell Street which is just off
Commercial Street in Leith. Six of them seem happy enough to play a game which involves kicking a football against an iron gate with the force of a meteorite. This causes an earth shattering CLANG! which rings throughout the entire building. This game is now in it's third week and as I am unsure how the scoring system works, I have no idea if it will end any time soon.

The remaining five walking abortions are happily rummaging through several bags of rubbish and items of furniture that someone has so thoughtfully dumped beside the wheelie bins. One of them has found a saw and is setting about a discarded chair like a beaver on speed. I fear that it's only a matter of time before they turn their limited attention to the bottle of calor gas that is lying on its side between the two bins. If they could be relied on to only blow their arms and legs off then I would happily leave them to it. I would even go so far as to lend them the matches. Unfortunately they are far more likely to blow up half the street with them, and I've just finished decorating the kitchen.

What I suggest is this. After replying to this e-mail with worthless assurances that the matter is being looked into and will be dealt with, why not leave it until the one night of the year (probably bath night) when there are no mutants around, then drive up the street in

34

BK,

Cyberspace 04/11/2007 09:04:50

#2
"Neither the courts nor the training courses run at night"
No, but if a policeman spends hid day in court or a classroom he is obviously not available for night duties, so the effect is the same.

35

george alexander,

north lanarkshire 04/11/2007 09:06:14

This is an interesting article highlighting a serious problem within the force. However, I simply cannot work out how this conclusion "The revelations will heap further embarrassment on the new SNP Government" can be arrived at.

If anything the article demonstrates that the SNP are using the correct approach. I despair of the quality of journalism in Scotland when even a situation that is entirely the making of the previous administration is used as a stick to beat a party that actually seeks to address the problem.

36

eric,

lothian 04/11/2007 09:13:22

Awwwww bless

37

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 09:14:42

My favourite of the bit of the article is the lazy and corrupt oink harking back to the glory days of limited paperwork when you made an arrest.

The glory days of the fit up and selling info to the hardened crims. Someone down at the freemasons lodge the oink attends dislikes a certain young man for illegal reasons, just a secret handshake and problem solved.

The Oinks are too stupid to record information accurately and quickly. And they're lazy.

If you are stupid and lazy and worried about a future career as you have no skills, the police for you it is. The time at the station is the lazy oink trying to stay there for as long as possible, when the politician asks him. "Hey, oink, are you taking the p*ss back here and skyving by not going back out." "No sir, paperwork."

Mace them in the face if they spend less that 22 hours a week on the beat. Get back to the glory days of employee disciplince for skyving.

38

Hotel Yorba,

Glasgow 04/11/2007 09:16:06

No.34 -

39

Cadgers,

Perth 04/11/2007 09:18:50

#5 Well said BW. I expect the new Liebour/libdumbs to open their mouths and let their bellies rumble, but Annybel?

40

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 09:20:14

#38 Andy

Can you tell me what your own profession is that is so efficient, value for money and socially useful? Please feel free to tell, so the police can learn from you.

41

dg,

04/11/2007 09:21:21

The conclusion to this article, that there are few officers available for patrol duties is, in my experience, true. I was amused by the story I heard recently about a new sergeant arriving at a police office for his first early shift. Concerned that no cops had appeared by 7am he enquired with the civillian station assistant, to be told that they were the shift.

Can't help noticing a flaw in the stats though:
'31.4% on rest days.'
and
'The remaining 33.2% are available for operational duties but have to be split into four shifts to cover a 24-hour period.'

In my day, there were 3 shifts to cover the 24 hour period, the 4th one was the one on rest day......

42

Onecuppeter,

Falkirk 04/11/2007 09:21:42

If they are not out catching criminals and thats what we are paying them for, what is their point exactly. Either get their lazy backsides onto the streets or get rid. Its no wonder the police have lost any shred of respect local communities ever had for them. I do not know anyone who has a good word to say for them.

43

AF,

04/11/2007 09:24:15

Silly use of statistics.

Assuming police officers work a 40 hour week, and there are 168 hours in the week, that means that on average, even if you sent every single officer out on the beat for their whole shift, and didn't allow them any holidays, you'd still only get to 24% "available for frontline duties"

Wonder what the equivalent figure is for SoS journalists ?

44

madrab,

edinburgh 04/11/2007 09:28:36

These figures don't add up. How can 31.4% be on a rest day at any given moment? Are they only working a two day week? Also was no overtime worked last year?

45

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 09:35:25

45 Draco

There are parts of Edinburgh where people will not venture into at night. Where cabbies will not pick up.

The violent crime hotspots are known, we can presume to the police as well.

Similairly the police claim they have to arrest people for misdameanaurs to make arrest targets. BS if you ask me.

A police officer claiming a shortage of crime, pull the other one.

They are getting their heads down for the next break, actively looking for excuses to pursue the soft crime so they can get back to the 'go slow' with a coffee back at the office.

To answer your question though, if you need inspiration look to our soldiers. Less money, harder work, better results because they have some pride, sense of duty and management that doesn't let lazy oinks take the p*ss.

The cops are just their for the overpaid posts, high overtime. They have no sense of duty to go out and work for the money. They might get hurt. Best to just leave the hot spots alone and arrange to be somewhere else, preferrably in a cozy car with it's radiator on at max or eating a sandwhich back at the station.

46

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 09:40:29

Draco

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1208642003

Get it up ye.

Been that way for years. Lazy oinks getting their heads down.

47

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 09:45:13

Draco

I presume you are a lazy copper. Maybe you can pick up sum tips from here.

http://www.anotherconstable.co.uk/blog/2005/09/lazy-coppers/

48

Phil C,

04/11/2007 09:49:07

This is not a party political question any more than why are so many teachers off with stress?, or how many administrators does it take to change a lightbulb in the health service?, or how many nurses to change a bed?,........

However, Labour must take a huge slice of the blame. This country (Scotland and/or UK) has been governed by two parties for many decades. There is nothing Labour have been busier at than creating new laws, creating more paperwork and creating more need to 'cover your arse'. Legislation to 'protect the employee' makes it near impossible to weed out the wasters. Often rule changes are for the right reasons, but rarely do they help. For all their perceived sins, the Tories at least try to cut bureaucracy. The SNP have been in a very weak governing position for 2 seconds and some wallies on here and elsewhere seek to blame them!

The problem is one inherited from the States- Lawyer power and the compensation culture. Why oh why we base anything on their culture I'll never know. Lawyers clamour for 'justice' when each time it means a bigger pay cheque for them. I suspect that the fear of greedy litigation ties up 50% of administration time. It is a no-win situation (except for lawyers and compensation recipients) and if the SNP can start to chip away at the lack of common sense in evidence today then great. This work should have started 40 years ago!

The police provide a good service but it could be so much better and more cost effective with less paperwork. We need to sort the lawyers first though.

49

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 09:59:56

#47 Andy

No answer from you. Says it all really.

50

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 10:03:38

50 Draco

See 46.

So, you have been outed as a lazy copper and your excuse for not working is that someone didn't provide their name and address on a interweb forum.

Sais it all really.

Get back to work you lazy oink!

51

The Strategist,

04/11/2007 10:03:44

There's no doubt that real law enforcement is very often frustrated by the so called PC brigade of lawyers and indeed some elements of Govt particularly local Cllrs.

The problem with that is as someone else once said "Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous media which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"

52

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 10:09:55

#51 Andy

No, I was just trying to see if you would give us an indication of your own professional contribution to society. You make sweeping generalisations about the work ethic of another profession, implying that your contribution is greater and more efficient. Not to answer shows you to be, at best, juvenile, more likely to have another agenda.

53

HBOS Customer,

at home 04/11/2007 10:15:12

What an abuse of statistics. Why not do the same calculations for doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers etc? Of course when you need 24 hour cover there needs to be more staff involved and in a 4 shift system, only one shift can be on at any one time so that rules out 75% of the staff straight away.

What silly and lazy journalism.

54

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 10:21:36

53 Draco

The police force is lazy. That is the subject of the story. It has been that way for years, top police management acknowledge it.

You cannot deny that fact and so you seek to find silly and irrelevant reasons to deflect attention of what is a innefectual police force through lazy oinks.

What other profession offers salaries of £30-40k after 10 years with only a few high school average grades and no requirements to put effort in?

You have been outed as a lazy copper. They should be judged on how they should be, not how bad other professions are.

55

Salty,

Midlothian 04/11/2007 10:27:39

31.4% on rest days ?

What company or buisiness could afford or remain solvent with this level of staff paid leave ?

56

terry osser,

london 04/11/2007 10:29:24

same problem here and were spending a fortune but still they are rarely sighted.

however did you see the number at old bailey with waste of space ian blair

57

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 10:30:36

Your generalistaions need to be taken in context. I criticise if I am a position to do so, I do no criticise entire professions (with the exception of politicians who, with very few exceptions, I loathe as a group). From your comments, it is obvious that you think you do a harder, more efficient and socially useful job. I'm just wondering what that is, that's all. You're obviously not THAT confident in your own contribution that you refuse to tell me.

58

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 10:32:29

#57 Wini

A 'rest day' is a day off. I take it you work without them?

59

James,

Dundee 04/11/2007 10:33:10

Why 4 shifts required?

Most 24.7 'Industries' get by on 3 shifts.

Work till 60-65 with the last years as desk jockeys and eating pies at football matches.

60

cabrach loon,

inverness 04/11/2007 10:36:34

not surprising ewhen you see all the total waste and needless investigations to prove commonsense reasons all because of the Health and Safety rubbish that seems to be destroying life in Britain, there is more to policing than wearing these yellow coats and now half the country seems to where them so where are the police?
SNP reduce the paperwork please and let the police work! be seen and be in the offices available. We know Nulab has destroyed the UK so how about Scotland making the break and getting our quality of life back - we don't need to emulate England or Wales for this let's do it ourselves. and stuff the EU

61

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 10:37:06

59 Draco

Tell me what you do that is better than the politicans. If you don't tell me then all politicians are good by default.

See how moronic the above argument is. Then aplpy that principal to yours.

And get back to work you lazy oink!

62

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 10:41:07

59 Draco

You are definately a lazy policeman who's fat and useless.

Tell me, do you feel guilty that people are scarred for life, get kicked unconcious regularly on the streets because you don't do your job well?

63

Atomheartfather,

too far from home 04/11/2007 10:42:57

Sorry children, all this "blame SNP, blame Labour" etc misses the point. The revelation that only 8.3% of police are on the front line is the story for EVERY area of economic activity in our dear western society - and in EVERY country. I work in the arts - as an artist - and help run an artist-led community service on a grant of £16,000 a year. In front of our workshop is an arts centre on half a million a year in which 90% of the staff have nothing to do with producing art. But our way of working is deemed inappropriate because we refuse to deliver business plans, organise targets, write long-winded health and safety documents etc - we simply get on with the job in a safe, hazard-free and professional way.

This, I suspect, is also the case in education, the health service, the ambulance service and even, given the huge amounts of money spent on advertising, in the car industry.

This is the modern world, folks. Until you learn to run things yourselves - ie without the need for 200 mile long line management - and without "skiving" - you should accept that this is how things are. I don't blame the politicians. They simply reflect the calibre of voter, I'm afraid.

64

Phil C,

04/11/2007 10:45:12

#57 Wini, aka Fiddler on the roof, aka God! Have you sought help? Some psychiatric facitilies are second to none, except the ones they're second to.

65

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 10:45:25

#63 Andy

I am set a task of whatever nature, I address it as honestly as I can, without fudge or self interest and deliver as good a result as I can, hopefully to the benefit of another person. And I do that pretty much on a daily basis. I think I make a fairly useful contribution to society. I don't think the average politician delivers the same result.

You still won't answer. You resort to childish insult and sweeping generalistions, thus making your opinions pretty worthless at present.

66

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 10:51:18

#61 James

Depends on the length of your working day. 2 shifts working 12 hours, 1 shift day off. 3 shifts working 8 hours, 1 shift off. Easy.

67

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 10:52:19

68 Draco

Stop pursuing this line of enquiry officer and get back to some relevant work.

The Police Force is inefficient, not just because of bearacracy but because lazy police officers can abuse the system for personal gain.

68

Phil C,

04/11/2007 10:57:11

#66 Atomheart

In the main, I agree with you but you are wrong in not blaming the politicians. If they do nothing then who does? Labour have been the masters of over-regulation for years, usually influenced by trades unions or lawyers. For some wierd genetic or tribal reason, too many people still vote for them!

69

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 10:58:20

#70 Andy

Yes, there are lazy police officers (oinks is so mature, don't you think?) Yes, there are inefficient officers. Yes, procedure within the polce service make for inefficiency.

I have another 2 questions for you then, although I doubt you'll answer them either. Do you agree we need the police? If so, and you clearly think that EVERY police officer is stupider and lazier than you, have you considered joining to improve the service?

70

Phil C,

04/11/2007 10:59:28

Andy & Draco- would you give it a rest!

71

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 11:02:09

#73 Phil C

Sorry. Just don't like to see yappy gobsh**tes getting away with their nonsense without challenge.

72

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 11:05:16

72 Draco

Look at how Nurses, Paramedics and Soldiers perform on less money and under similair circumstances. They do exceptionally well and are well respected amongst the general population.

Perhaps you should look to yourselves and not to others for the answers.

If you present yourself at the interview for a Policeman you should do the work if you accept the over paid post and all the perks.

I you do not present yourself at interview you cannot be blamed for being a lazy policeman. Simple logic.

73

Tommy Trout,

Las Pesqueras, Alicante 04/11/2007 11:07:38

This ratio is not only in Scotland but applies across the whole of the UK.
Que the De Menezes shooting...it took 4 hours for the armed response team to eventually get to Stockwell tube station. The excuse being given, they were just coming on to their shift. I know the traffic in London is bad, but!!!! However, you can't blame the police too much, wouldn't you rather sit in the station doing paperwork than have to pound the street in all weather watching you don't offend the PC watchdogs?

74

Phil C,

04/11/2007 11:08:20

#74 Draco

The best thing is to ignore his type. They might go away.

75

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 11:09:55

77 Tommy Trout

If police officers don't like the work, resign and get a job at Tesco.

It is about personal responsibility. Take the high pay, high over-time and good pension, do the work. If you subsequently discover you hate the job, quit and give the job to someone who will work for the money.

76

Paul Voltaire,

04/11/2007 11:10:15

Whatever happened to the thief-takers of old?
Charlie Barlow will be turning in his grave.

77

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 11:20:11

#78 Andy

Whatever it is you do, and obviously so well and with such unrestrained vigour, I'm glad you think its making a more useful contribution to society. Good on you.

78

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 11:27:12

81 Draco

Let's assume I am a lazy good for nothing, just to pursue your argument to the logical conclusion.

No-one dies, get's maimed, lives in fear, loses personal property, has their communities ruined as a result of my inaction.

As it happens I work for myself studying for my masters in mechanical engineering. I get no pay, and live under the poverty line.

Nurses have to pay to train themselves as do teacher and soldiers paid a pittance while they train.

Sitting on my arse all day for 30-40k would be a godsend sometimes.

We pay police officers 20k a year to train them, but not other necessary and useful professions.

The police has always attracted the lazy and stupid, it is seen as good money for nothing.

79

Suzi B,

04/11/2007 11:33:26

I can see the solution to this problem so clearly...

Jock Macsprog at #6 says of traffic wardens that 'this particular "public service" is fully staffed and manages to blanket every square inch of our cities.'
Those of you better at statistics than me could work out how much of a traffic wardens day is wasted when there are no parking offenders about, so surely they could job share with the boys in blue and bring about a mega-force on the streets of our towns and cities! And I'm sure there would be no traffic wardens out there who would object to being able to carry a truncheon and handcuffs!

80

Connor,

04/11/2007 11:34:03

Andy Dufresne was a great character from a great film, maybe the greatest of films. But what he didn't have was a chip on his shoulder, he had hope. I'm afraid the character in these posts with the same name does Andy Dufresne an injustice. Perhaps he would care to tell everyone what he does that makes him such an expert on the police, all of the police. And the childish insults are little better than pathetic. And no, I'm not a police officer.

81

Stirling Sentinel,

English Voice 04/11/2007 11:37:38

Don't rely on the SNP to solve this one. They couldn't negotiate themselves out of a paper bag. The answer is a National UK Police Force for crime etc, and a separate Traffic Police Force (including the wardens) for Traffic offences. Most European countries have this separation with different uniforms etc. Much more efficient.

82

Connor,

04/11/2007 11:39:32

Ah, I see that you are student study for a degree in mechanical engineering. Well, there are 3 areas where people can, if they were like you, make sweeping generalisations and make petty insults. How many fat, lazy, stupid students, mechanics or engineers do we all know. Well, I work in an engineering industry and there are a good few - as there are in every occupation.
Andy, thanks for clearing up the mystery, the chip on your shoulder needs mending but no doubt in your studies you will encounter the phrase " Judge everyone else by your own high standards" and perhaps you will be worth listening to. Until then, I'm afraid you're not.

83

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 11:41:57

#81 Andy

I'm sorry that you think your intelligence and qualifications are not, for the moment, getting the monetary recompense they deserve. Jealousy and bitterness are no reason to right off an entire profession of men and women as lazy and stupid. I would have thought a man who much have some degree of intelligence as to study for an engineering degree would never make such a sweeping statement. That you feel you can comment, without, I presume, having any real knowledge of the intricacies of modern police work, is also quite surprising in a supposed academic. Your obvious dislike of the Police Service and police officers, would indicate to me that you have underlying issues that you need to take a wee look at.

84

Utter Shambles,

04/11/2007 11:47:35

Your journalist has totally missed the real reasons for the shortage of Police on the beat; and the answers are out there if he'd cared to look. Its a UK problem not just a Scottish problem. The UK Labour govt are only interested in statistics, and unfortunately have a breed of Chief Constables who's only interest is their careers, so will carry out their wishes. So for example car crime or vandalism becomes a major problem in an area and is making the crime figures look bad, a squad is put together to deal with it. If its successful those type of crimes are solved and reduced, so the crime figures/solvency rates look good. Problem is these squads take away numerous front line officers, and therefore allow other types of crimes to flourish. And it repeats itself as more squads are formed to tackle those. Tragically most politicians, chief constables and journalists really have no idea of pro active policing, and its the public who suffer!

85

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 11:49:02

86 Draco

Please try and hide your own insecurities.

My complaint is not they are all lazy and stupid, my complaint is that the profession has always attracted this bunch and has for years never addressed it.

See 47 and top police management expert opinion if you need a better source then me.

I've no doubt that having a high proportion of lazy and stupid people demotivates borderline staff.

But let's not hide the problem or make excuses. The fat, lazy skyver needs weeding.

Sorry you find commenting on facts problematic, but if the police stop apologising for the fat and lazy amongst them and start addressing the problem rather than blaming others, that would be a welcome start on the cultural change drastically required.

86

Ms Fiona,

04/11/2007 11:56:16

#88 Andy, contrary to your opinion there are plenty of people who wll have a go at nurses, teachers, paramedics, etc as anyone in the 'front line' is fair game for people like you, who obviously hold a grudge. There may be some fat lazy coppers, though I think the fact you call them oinks lets us know where you are coming from. But the fact is it would be a whole lot worse out there if it wasn't for the Police. Most cops that I know would far rather be pro active rather than ticking boxes and sitting around in court all day either waiting for no show witnesses or until the accused pleads guilty at the very last minute. That's something that needs to be sorted out, but I do not blame the cops for it, it is the system they work in.

87

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 11:57:43

#88 Andy

When has anyone sought to justify laziness or inefficiency in the police service? If you can find that anywhere in what I've said, do so. I've only pointed out that your ridiculous generalisations are, themselves an indication of intellectual laziness and, probably, an underlying prejudice. Not good attributes in academic.. It's maybe no wonder you currently find yourself currently unemployed and poor. You don't appear to have the skills required. Bye.

88

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

04/11/2007 11:57:45

From what I have seen there is little evidence that more police on the beat reduces crime. The biggest fear is being caught, which may mean that some if not a large part of the desk bound work is actually going to some good use. We had more than enough police in my home town but they would often just drive by when assaults were taking place...

As for the police themselves, ,there should be no more until there are better ways of dealing with corruption: i.e. loss of pensions and jail time if they fit someone up. At present they always walk away into the world of early retirement. Quality NOT quantity is the answer.

89

Andy Dufresne,

04/11/2007 12:05:17

89 Ms Fiona

Many, many people have had the usual problem of informing the police of a routine crime only to be told they are not going to do anything.

No-one has ever had a routine medical condition only to be told the health services are not going to do anything about it.

No-one has ever had the problem of needing a war to be fought and not having a soldier prepared to do it.

No-one has ever had a fire only to be told the fire service are not coming.

The Police deserve the disgust of the public. The employees are as much to blame as the system.

90

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 04/11/2007 12:11:36

#92 Andy

I hate to disabuse you, but the vast majority of the honest, sane public are NOT disgusted by the police. They are frustrated, sometimes disappointed in the service, yes. But that vast majority appreciates that MOST police officers are only trying to provide the best service they can, hampered by nose-poking politicians and dodgy management, for their fellow citizens. Only criminals, juvenile anarchists and ravers like you think otherwise.

91

Ms Fiona,

04/11/2007 12:14:24

#92 Away you go, people complain about nurses all the time, and the fire Service is very popular with congenital moaners. And housing departments and social workers are all useless too. And did you see the 'story' about the shocking fact that only 3 teachers have been sacked for incompetence. Nope, you just have it in for the cops that is plain to see. Now you might have a point about failure to deal with low level crime but your presentation leaves a lot to be desired.