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Salmond: 'Stone of Destiny is fake'



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Published Date: 15 June 2008
THE First Minister has made the astonishing claim that the Stone of Destiny is a medieval fake.
Scotland's iconic coronation stone has been seen by tens of thousands of people since it was returned from Westminster Abbey to Edinburgh Castle in 1996.

But in a move which is sure to re-ignite debate across the country, Alex Salmond has made public his belief that the relic is no more than a replica.

The SNP leader, a keen historian, is convinced that the stone, which was looted by Edward I in 1296, was a forgery created to dupe the invading English forces. If so, it would mean that the true stone – which, according to legend, originated in the Holy Land and was used by Jacob as a pillow – still remains undiscovered.

Salmond's intervention comes as a £6m film starring Robert Carlyle and Billy Boyd, which chronicles the retrieval of the stone from Westminster Abbey in 1950, is about to hit cinema screens around the world.

There have been suggestions that a copy of the stone was made during the daring episode, which was led by a group of students, including Ian Hamilton, who went on to become a QC. Many have claimed that the late Glasgow stonemason and councillor Bertie Gray made a forgery of the stone, which was handed back to UK authorities in 1951.

But Salmond favours the argument that a patriotic monk at Scone Abbey duped the English monarch at the end of the 13th century in a hoax that has lasted for centuries.

"There are two questions that are key to the mystery of the stone," he said.

"Did the Abbot of Scone meekly surrender Scotland's most famous symbol to Edward in 1296, or did he allow him to ransack a substitute?

"Was it the real Stone of Destiny that turned up on the altar at Arbroath Abbey in 1951 after being repatriated by Ian Hamilton and friends, or was it a replica made by bailie Bertie Gray? On balance, my view is that the Abbot of Scone furnished Edward with a substitute.

"What I believe cannot be in doubt is that the stone currently in Edinburgh Castle is the one that lay in Westminster Abbey for 700 years."

But Salmond has rejected the idea of using science to get to the bottom of the mystery.

He said: "Neither question can ever be finally answered – and that is why the mystery of the stone is one best left unsolved."

Westminster Abbey spokeswoman Victoria Ribbans said: "Our belief has always been that the stone is genuine and we have no reason to believe otherwise."

The stone was removed on Christmas Day 1950 by four Scottish students, Ian Hamilton, Gavin Vernon, Kay Matheson and Alan Stuart.

In 1996, the British Government decided that the Stone should be kept in Scotland when not in use at coronations, and crossed the border on that summer.

The Stone of Destiny was returned to Scotland with due ceremony in 1996
The Stone of Destiny was returned to Scotland with due ceremony in 1996
From Jacob's pillow to Nats' touchstone

IT IS a mystery that has provoked fascination and wild speculation for more than 700 years.

According to mythology the Stone of Destiny, also known as the Lia Fail, originated in Palestine and was transported through Egypt, Sicily, Spain and Ireland before arriving in Scone in the 9th century where it was used when Scottish monarchs were crowned.

Legend has it that it was used by Jacob as a pillow in biblical times. According to others, it was used as a coronation stone by early Gaels in Ireland, and as a travelling altar by St Columba. It has even been linked to Robert the Bruce and to the Blarney Stone.

The existing documentary evidence describes the stone as round and concave, as would be expected of a seat or throne, while others have suggested the stone was black, shiny and intricately carved. Yet the object at Edinburgh Castle is shaped like a plain grey slab or block.

Professor Ted Cowan, one of Scotland's most senior historians, remained unconvinced by the medieval replica theory. The Glasgow University academic said: "I have discussed this matter with the First Minister and I know his views on this. It is perfectly fine for him to believe that the Stone is a replica, but there is the whole matter of proof. How credible is it that you can just make a replica of something like that in five minutes because Edward I of England is coming to steal the real one?"

A spokeswoman for the British Geological Survey (BGS), an independent organisation which specialises in testing and dating stones, said it would be more than willing to take a fresh look at the artefact.

But the BGS said previous research on the Stone indicated that it was "lithologically similar to the Devonian sandstones exposed around Scone Palace".

Mineralogist Dr Neil Fortey said it strongly resembled sandstone from Quarry Mill on the Scone estate.

The First Minister is championing the view that the Stone of Destiny is a fake. Alex Salmond has revealed he believes the iconic artefact is little more than a 13th-century replica.

The Stone was famously stolen from Westminster Abbey on Christmas Day in 1950 by four Glasgow University students and taken to Scotland. The story is told in a new film, titled Stone Of Destiny.

The Stone was returned to a repaired Coronation Chair for the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in 1953.

Former Lib Dem MSP Donald Gorrie has long questioned the Stone's authenticity and called for a "sensible scientific study".

The late writer and historian Nigel Tranter believed the object Edward took to London was "a lump of Scone sandstone".

Historic Scotland has always claimed to be "confident" that the Stone is genuine.

The full article contains 950 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 14 June 2008 10:54 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Al Ford,

Insch 15/06/2008 00:01:58
Does it matter? What matters is that the object in question is generally and reasonably considered to be the Stone of Destiny. What happens to it therefore seems to matter to a great many people.

On the two occasions upon which I saw it when it was displayed within the English coronation chair it seemed to me that what it symbolized for many was such that it should not be where it was.

We were told that the Stone of Destiny could not be returned to us, but eventually it was returned nevertheless. What is believed to be impossible at one point in time becomes possible at another point in time. We were told that we could not have a parliament again, but there it is, boldly standing defiantly before the gates of the royal palace. We are told that we cannot have independence, but the fact that the Stone of Destiny is back in our hands may be taken to represent the fact that our destiny is in our hands, as those who removed the Stone from Westminster Abbey in 1950 sought to demonstrate.

Since the Stone was returned to Scotland officially in 1996 substantial constitutional change has occurred. One wonders what constitutional changes will take place over the next 12 years. One thing is certain: constitutional change is certain within that period and beyond.
2

SNPfighter101,

15/06/2008 00:12:27
MR. SALMOND YOU MAKE ME WISH TO CHANGE MY SCREEN NAME!
First you want to build national pride and then declare a massive part of history to be fake?
3

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 00:47:46
Mr Salmond is also a Historian.

Every Historian has his/her opinion about the course of history and the myths and theories that exist with history.
4

Highland Mighty,

15/06/2008 00:51:28
"But Salmond has rejected the idea of using science to get to the bottom of the mystery."

That says it all.
5

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 01:02:30
Highland Mighty.

He said: "Neither question can ever be finally answered – and that is why the mystery of the stone is one best left unsolved."

If the history behind something is more interesting then the public will respect and take more interest in it.
6

,

15/06/2008 01:32:09
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7

,

15/06/2008 01:32:17
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8

Senga Jean,

15/06/2008 01:32:54
Alex Salmond wishes a modern Scotland to be be Independent and is not in favour of historical keich. I support him totally.
9

Joseph Gibson,

Stevenston 15/06/2008 01:56:14

Sorry... I do not support the SNP in an Independant Scotland. They claim to be this and that, but people forget what nationalism is! There priority should be Scotland and the scottish people first, not having our people multicoloured as our tartan as they have said, thats not nationalism! and I honestly believe that once Scotland is Independant, everything we've achieved throughout history will be gone! and what right do we have to it when we just throw it away!!!!???? NONE. Because we'd join the EU, and already the EU is a fale, and a US wannabe. And hurting Scotland's heritage.

Sorry had to say this. Yer, every historian has their opinion.
10

Colin P,

15/06/2008 02:43:47
There is one train of thought which persists throughout all your cryptic sh1te, and that is...the true Stone of Destiny will be unveiled once Scotland becomes independent once again.

Sort of romantic history, yes, but we Scots have a knack for that, don't we?
11

Guga II,

Rockall 15/06/2008 03:02:44
"The Stone was famously stolen from Westminster Abbey"

This is the Hootsmon repeating the lies and propaganda once again. The stone was not "stolen" from Westminster Abbey, it was stolen from Scotland and retrieved from Westminster Abbey.

You can't steal your own property.

The stone should never be allowed to cross the border again.
12

FrancesP,

15/06/2008 03:13:24
A typical misuse of language in the opening paragraph. The First Minister was not making an 'astonishing claim', he was reiterating a widely held - if not universally accepted - viewpoint. An 'astonishing' claim would be something more along the lines of "George Foulkes is radioactive haddock, claims Salmond".
13

Willie Macleod,

Wick 15/06/2008 03:17:57
Real or fake It does'nt matter this stone is irrelevant,

What matters the scottish people who were oppressed by their Kings Queens,Clan Chiefs,Lairds and all the rest of their kind up to this very day.
14

Willie Macleod,

Wick 15/06/2008 03:29:52
#27 cont.. And the Church who collaborated those oppressors.
15

W Smith,

Middle East 15/06/2008 04:05:31
1) It must be comforting for those who have lost their jobs in East Kilbride to know that the First Minister feels he should prattle on first about Trident and now about the friggin Stone of Destiny!

2) In Italy some catholic churches claim to have 'real pieces' of the cross and or nails from the cross, etc.

In my opinion, this is a load of superstitious nonsense and the Stone of Destiny is of the same ilk - but it proves superstition is alive and well in Scotland.

3) Funny how The Scotsman can't bring itself to talk about Jacob, THE JEW, who was supposed to have first used this stone as a pillow.

While sleeping Jacob is said to have seen angels descending and ascending on a ladder.

Mind you this is the newspaper that ran the healine "With friends like Israel - Who Needs Iran?".
16

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 04:49:23
29
"In my opinion, this is a load of superstitious nonsense and the Stone of Destiny is of the same ilk - but it proves superstition is alive and well in Scotland."
Ah. The first Minister debunks a myth, yet you use the story to denigrate your countrymen.

Why?
17

Willie Macleod,

Wick 15/06/2008 05:16:55
#30 Conan Morning Conan or hav'nt you been to bed like me.

Just off now to get a few hours sleep.

Catch up with you later

Omnia vincit Amor

18

Kenny A,

15/06/2008 06:18:49
Mr Gibson at 21

What exact colour is a Scotsman.

Red haired Celtic (a myth by the way), Blond Scandanavian or dark middle eastern looking like the Picts were reported to be.

I will assume you are on about immigration not a persons colour.

Apart from that the rest of your post makes little sense.
19

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 15/06/2008 06:44:05
As I understand the old coronations, the King stood upon the stone holding his sword while his lineage was recited by a monk to all assembled. There would never have been any shiny backsides upon it. While it was held at Scone it was not from Scone hence if it is the same as stone from the local quarry then the abbot could have easily got another stone for Edward to steal. Time Team had better come North and do some digging. Will Charles be Charles III or Charles IV of Scotland?
20

puskas,

East kilbride 15/06/2008 06:53:32
The Apache American indian originated from the middle east ..

Fact or myth ?
21

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 06:57:52
### 17 ####

Senga Jean

DO come to Einburgh, and in particular, the Royal Mile and Princes Street, where the tourists and natives are bombarded with enough Scottish kitsch to last several lifetimes.

All the tartan tat shops withkilts for £19.99 draped around the doors, the hellish canned bagpipe musak, 'Scottish' (made in China) knick-knackery........

To think that but for Sir Walter Scott who started all this 'heritage' drivel in 1822, followed with Victoria and 'balmorality', then Harry Lauder, Andy Stewart and the White Heather Club, then the Corries with the dirge-like, backward-looking 'Flower of Scotland'

---- we wouldn't have had all this 'Scottish kitsch' at all.

Still, it keeps the tourists and the natives happy.
22

spiderman,

Argyll 15/06/2008 07:18:02
The scientific evidence shows that the stone is typical of Scone sandstone. Therefore it's not from Palestine. It's a fake. What's the problem? Salmond's right!
23

1745,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 07:18:32
What Alex Salmond says is correct anyone who has studied Scottish history knows that the real stone of Scone is made of black basalt and is inscribed with hieroglyphs.The stone was hidden from the English and tradition says that one family in Scotland holds the key to it's location not to be revealed until Scotland is free.Edward knew he had been sold a pup,for he had ordered a golden chair to be made to hold the Stone but when he saw the lump of sandstone , he had the chair made of wood.
24

Bramley,

15/06/2008 07:21:33
The only "astonishing" thing about your story is that you seem unaware of the history of the stone. There are many books and articles about it. Try using Google to find out more. I don't always agree with Salmond but on this one, he's absolutely right. The Scots passed off a fake on the English King - it's nothing but a "cludgie stane".
25

izzie,

dundee 15/06/2008 07:35:31
Charles will become George VII and William King Billy whatever - Why is this paper ignoring the Wendy Alexander donations story as featured in the Herald??
26

mrsbruce,

Livingston 15/06/2008 07:48:35
So the arguement that a fake was not handed to Edward is based on the assumtion that they couldn't make a replica in 5 minutes.

It looks like local stone, there there's a bloomin' good chance t IS local stone.

If an army is marching over a hill, someone would have noticed, and mentioned it, giving them time to 'dispose' of the original stone.

Methinks they had enough gumption to grab a lump of local stone and go 'There you are mate'.
27

redandwhitehoops,

east kilbride 15/06/2008 08:10:59
The Scotsman printed a booklet on the "Scottish Wars of Independence" a few months back,as a saturday supplement. According to their booklet, the real stone was likely to have been spirited away before Edward arrived, as it was well known he was on his way to get it, after touring Scotland destroying and pilfering the symbolic relics of Scotland's Nationhood. This is my belief also, especially after seeing the stone, which looks like a standard block of sandstone. Edward took it, as the genuine stone, although he probably knew it to be nothing more than a lump of sandstone, because to have done otherwise he would have acknowledged that he had been denied the real one. The stone in the castle is the one from westminster, it's just that neither are or were the real Stone of Destiny. Which is Alex Salmond's point.
28

lulach mac gille coemgain,

15/06/2008 08:12:29
One thing is for sure - fake or otherwise - there is more intelligence in that stone that all of the Labour party put together!
29

Richardinho,

15/06/2008 08:23:02
The most important implication of the stone not being the real one is that it means every English monarch crowned on it is not a legitimate Scottish monarch.
30

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 15/06/2008 08:23:24
If The Scotsman were not so ignorant of Scottish affairs generally it would know that this story is not new and "astonishing". This theory that the Westminster stone is a fake has been around for generations, and is backed up by a fair amount of circumstantial evidence. The Abbot of Scone had six weeks' warning of the approach of the English army and had ample time to hide the original and substitute a block of local building stone. We in the Scotland-UN Committee knew this when we had the issue of the Stone of Destiny raised in the United Nations back in the 1980s, which raised a fair amount of dust internationally. Whether the Westminster stone was genuine or not was not the central point. The issue was that a Scottish national heirloom was being paraded under the backside of the English king in order to demonstrate Scotland's subservience - centuries after the English had been forced by treaty to abandon all claims on Scotland. More to the point would be finding out what happened to the ceremonially carved stone that was discovered in 1912 in an underground chamber on the site of King Macbeth's castle in Perthshire, and was taken to London for examination, since when nothing has been heard of it.

31

,

15/06/2008 08:23:49
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32

john z,

edinburgh 15/06/2008 08:27:07
Some people are missing the point. The notion that the stone of destiny may be fake has ben around for a very long time. Alex Salmond is merely saying that he is of the opinion that that particular viewpoint is correct.

Either way, I look forward to the film, as I think this is one of the great yarns of a modern age - six Scottish students nicking the stone of destiny from under the English throne in London - what a hoot. It's a pity Glasgow (or any) University doesn't produce free thinkers like that anymore.

Mind you, if they did it now, they'd probably be held under the 42 day rule, as suspected terrorists, then sent to Guantanamo bay.

Real or fake, it is good the stone is no longer kept UNDER the English throne in London - which is where it never should be. If any royalty want to sit on it, they can come to Scotland, and show some respect this time around!
33

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

15/06/2008 08:27:32
Salmond's £2000 grant for first time home buyers is also fake.
34

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

15/06/2008 08:29:35
Salmond's primary school class size reduction is also fake.
35

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

15/06/2008 08:31:51
Salmond's proposed unfair local income tax is also fake. What is local about it?
36

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

15/06/2008 08:33:52
Salmond's green credentials are also fake as was witnessed by his recent air and car trip to Manchester and his car trips to George Street.
37

Alberto.,

15/06/2008 08:36:55
I may be the odd one out here!

It may be due to something in the water - or the air, possibly by being more concerned about the 'here and now and the future' over all else, but, somewhere in the depths of my mind, considering the state of the Country and the World in these days of enormous Political control - and great failures, it, seems to me that there are far more important issues that should be grabbing the attention of the 'Alleged' political leader of the Country, than his apparent serious, and seemingly overwhelming concern for a piece of masonry - no matter its interesting history to the Country!

Come along First Minister, each to his own field - i.e.Politicians for a better NOW and a better FUTURE - leave stonework to those who deal in such matters - like the DIY stores and such, who are no doubt far more expert in that / their field than any politician.
38

Mikey,

15/06/2008 08:44:04
Lia Fail is a fake? So what? Most Scots have known this for years. Even SLAB boys know this but are terrified to say so in case they let it slip that Scotland was independent until 1707.

I would rather we debated the 'Great Michael' than Lia Fail.
39

Boy Wonder,

15/06/2008 08:51:13
Of course it's a fake! It's been commented on as such for centuries!
40

Ananurhing,

15/06/2008 08:55:06
I thought it was fairly common knowledge that the stone is a fake. The original was supposed to be made from black igneous rock, and intricately carved. It was allegedly hidden in Dull church in Perthshire along with the Scottish crown jewels etc. Then hidden under Dunsinane hill.
In '96 when Micheal Forsyth paraded the return of the fake stone, I had premises on the Royal Mile. A friend and myself painted a fifty foot long banner with the statement, BEWARE GEEKS BEARING GIFTS! Slightly inebreated at the time.
Unfortunately, or probably thankfully, my wife removed the banner early in the morning, before the parade.
After she'd finished slapping me, she pointed out that had it been left in place, we would have had visits from more EDC inspectors than you shake your business rates final demand at. She was of course quite right.
Shame though. I felt Forsyth's role in this was quite facetious and objectionable.
41

Steve,

15/06/2008 08:55:48
The real stone of destiny is in a building somewhere on the north bank of the river tay. Is is encased in plaster, and is disguised as part of the building. It will be revealed when Scotland regains her independence.

42

,

15/06/2008 09:08:53
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Reason:
43

foulkes had my name removed'the t0sser',

Scone palace staff toilets 15/06/2008 09:15:57
Get it tested properly and lets see what happens.It may very well be a fake but I think for the sake of Scottish history we should at least keep an open mind!
44

A big boy dun it an ran away,

15/06/2008 09:23:21
Geeza break you guys need tae git oot the hoose a bit mair.
45

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 09:27:15
Alberto (52): "it, seems to me that there are far more important issues that should be grabbing the attention of the 'Alleged' political leader of the Country"

Agreed. The simple fact that Salmond views this as an important issue is surprising. To provide perspective, how would Scots feel if, say, David Davis began to discuss the possible location of Harold Godwinson's body after the Battle of Hastings? Devoting nationalist attention to a possibly spurious piece of stone which, even if genuine, was removed from Scotland in the 13th century, is irrational.
46

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 15/06/2008 09:41:50
This story is not news, it's just a well padded out version of something that most sane people knew to be true, and could have been covered in two sentences.
47

Melly,

Sussex 15/06/2008 09:44:04
The real Stone of Scone was buried up in Kinnoull Hill before the English got to Scone. Everybody in Perth knows that.
48

King O The Picts,

BLIND UTOPIA 15/06/2008 09:52:04
When it comes to people innocent until proven guilty.
When it comes to artifacts I am with Alex fake till proven real.
Any one with even a rudimentary history of Lea Fail knows that the real stone was Jet it was round it had characters carved on it, and in no way would a man of religion of old let a treasure such as this fall into the hand of his enemys.
With you on this one Alex.
I stood next to this lump of rock at the castle and I felt nothing from it absolutely nothing not even a twitch.
I cant give you more than this, my guts tell me FAKE.
49

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 09:56:56
Salmond's mischief making is nothing knew as many similar claims have been made down through the ages?

IF, as he claims, the real stone was saved and the suspect 'Stone of Scone' forceably removed from medieval Scotland is not the genuine talisman of the Scots Kings, then the coronation of each and every English monarch at Westminster Abbey ever since has been completely devalued in its significance!


50

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 09:59:51
This is an outrage:



Wendy Alexander faces Holyrood ban after watchdog's guilty verdict
Electoral commission admits: 'We allowed politicians to break the law on election finances for five years'
By Paul Hutcheon, Scottish Political Editor
Comment | Read Comments (76)
LABOUR LEADER Wendy Alexander faces a Holyrood ban after a parliamentary sleaze watchdog found her guilty of breaking the rules on MSPs' conduct by not declaring donations to her leadership campaign.

The Sunday Herald understands Holyrood's standards commissioner Jim Dyer has issued a report to a parliamentary committee stating Alexander should have declared most of her £16,000 leadership campaign war chest as gifts.


51

Grant,

Scotland 15/06/2008 10:05:20
A more appropriate headline would be; "First Minister agrees with what most Scots think about the Stone of Destiny - Shock" or "First Minister speaks common sense about the Stone of Destiny".

#Alberto (52) and Fairfax (61)

Who says Salmond believes this to be "important"? He has stated his opinion on the matter - and I believe that was at a relevant function he was attending in his capacity as First Minister. Nothing more. He didn't make a statement in the Scottish Parliament on the issue, neither has he instructed the Scottish Government to issue a consultation document on the matter. I sincerely doubt he is using vast swathes of his time as First Minister to pontificate on the issue.

I suppose the chippy Unionist media in Scotland may make a great deal of hay with his opinion, but as has been stated above, this is not something that is exactly "new" to most people in Scotland who have a passing interest in the issue. I was still at Primary school when the Stone was "returned" to Scotland in 1996 and it was common currency back then to refer to it as a fake - and increasingly that is with very good reason.
52

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 10:10:05
61. Well said, the First Minister should not answer questions put to him...in the context of interest in this story from journalists at the moment because of a film about to be released..... and clearly answering the question has wasted at least 30 seconds he should have devoted to something we Unionists approve of... such as detaining people without charge, ID cards, more nuclear weapons for the Clyde...
53

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 10:10:49
69. I believe Wendy may have been detained without charge by the UK Labour leadership, she may be released in 6 weeks... we are campaigning for her
54

Iain's,

Barcelona 15/06/2008 10:13:26
They say that, here in Spain, there are enough pieces of the True Cross to built Noah's Ark.

I am equally sure that the Stone is not Jacob's pillow.

So what!
55

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 10:25:40
72. Whp's get the technicoloured pillow case then?
56

Englebert Humperdinck,

Here and there 15/06/2008 10:26:58
Why is no one who sells this alchohol to under age drinkers being made to take some kind of responsibility. The Government have it all wrong. They need a strict ID policy and need to be policed. If any conrner shop or off-licence or who ever gets caught selling alchohol to under agers why not hit them where it hurts? In the pocket.
Lets say a fine of a full years revenue and lose their trading licence completely? I am sure that would encourage them to check ID and not come up with their usual excuses of "They looked over 18". Although in most cases kids can always find someone older to buy it for them anyway. So! I dont think this problem will ever be solved.
57

Englebert Humperdinck,

Here and there 15/06/2008 10:31:13
Oops! Wrong post. Must be too early!
58

Rudolf The Red,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 10:31:29
The real stone is to be revealed when Scotland is free? Like in 1314? Scotland was free for hundreds of years and it never turned up.
59

John PM,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 10:38:22
This 'story' has been cut and pasted from the Times to offer an alternative to the latest Wendy Alexander bombshell. Here's the original comments:

Alex Salmond has said he believes the Stone of Destiny on show at Edinburgh Castle is a fake, provoking a row about the authenticity of one of Scotland’s most famous cultural icons.

The first minister is convinced the original stone was hidden by the abbot of Scone 700 years ago to prevent it being looted by the English.

Salmond believes a worthless block of Perthshire sandstone was passed off as Scotland’s coronation stone when King Edward I’s army stormed Scone Abbey in 1296.

The stone on display in the crown room of Edinburgh Castle sat beneath the coronation throne in Westminster Abbey until 1996, when it was repatriated by the Tory government.

It is regarded as a powerful symbol of Scottish independence and was stolen by a gang of nationalist radicals in 1950.

“If you’re the abbot of Scone and the strongest and most ruthless king in Christendom is charging toward you in 1296 to steal Scotland’s most sacred object and probably put you and half of your cohorts to death, do you do nothing and wait until he arrives or do you hide yourself and the stone somewhere convenient in the Perthshire hillside? I think the second myself,” said Salmond.

He believes the original stone, used for the coronation of Scots kings for 500 years, may have been a fragment of meteorite. Medieval chroniclers described it as round, black and polished with carved symbols. According to legend, the Stone of Destiny was used as a pillow by the biblical patriarch Jacob when he dreamt of a ladder to heaven.

“At least one chronicler describes the stone as a shiny black object and you would think that if something was to be seen as Jacob’s pillow, Scotland’s most sacred relic, it would be very unusual to the medieval eye,” said Salmond.

“I have a hunch that the sort of thing that would go down as the Stone of Scone wou
60

John PM,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 10:39:21
“I have a hunch that the sort of thing that would go down as the Stone of Scone would be more like a meteor or something like that — something very unusual, and a lump of Perthshire sandstone, interesting and nice, doesn’t seem to be that.”

Salmond also argues that Robert the Bruce would have demanded the stone’s return if he had thought it was the genuine article.

“He didn’t do that. Why not? One explanation is that he knew it wasn’t the right stone — and the right stone was lost, mislaid or out the way and he just thought this isn’t worth the bother.”

Salmond said there was no certainty either that the stone taken from Westminster Abbey in 1950 was the stone that now lies in the crown room at Edinburgh Castle. He believes a former Glasgow councillor and stonemason, Baillie Robert Gray, made copies of the stone when he was given it by the four to repair after it broke into two pieces during the raid. He suspects Gray may have kept the real one.

“There’s no question that Bertie Gray made copies,” said Salmond. “It’s like the Loch Ness monster — it’s certainly a puzzle and a mystery which is best not definitively answered.”

The first minister’s intervention comes on the eve of the premiere of a Hollywood film, starring Robert Carlyle and Billy Boyd, about the theft of the stone from Westminster Abbey by nationalist radicals in 1950.

The SNP hopes the film, which is being billed as Braveheart II, will boost its campaign for independence. The movie is based on the book about the incident by Ian Hamilton, one of the gang who went on to become one of Scotland’s top QCs.

Hamilton, whose book The Stone of Destiny is published this week, said he was convinced that the stone in Edinburgh was the genuine article.

“Had it been a substitute for Edward to carry off it would have been produced when the king \ regained his kingdom. It wasn’t,” he said. [Unless they suspected that England would try and steal it again and preferred to leave a worthles
61

John PM,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 10:40:16
“Had it been a substitute for Edward to carry off it would have been produced when the king regained his kingdom. It wasn’t,” he said. [Unless they suspected that England would try and steal it again and preferred to leave a worthless blockof sandstone in English hands and below future English thrones. - JPM]

Geoffrey Barrow, a professor in Scottish history at Edinburgh University who taught Salmond medieval history at St Andrews, added: “When Edward came to Scotland in 1296 his conquest of the country was so sudden that people were suffering from shock. I don’t think anyone would have thought up the idea of hiding the stone.”

[So the Scots were too thick to think of such a wheeze, sorry but I don't buy it. JPM]



62

Mcsnagpile,

15/06/2008 10:53:16
Everybody of the secret golden sporran elite knows that when a white stag is fired out of Mons Meg at 2:00am the real stone will ascend form the depths o’ Roslyn under heading conspiracy No 2. After which the true Laird o’ Faun Doon will emerge to claim his staen and oil rigs and we will be back tae auld claes an porridge before ye ken it.
63

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 15/06/2008 10:54:26
#43. If it is fake(and it probably is) not only are all those monarchs crowned at Westminister not lawful Kings/Queens of Scotland but every King and Queen from Robert Bruce onward were not lawful monarchs by your reckoning. This makes the stone irrelevant to the present and may turn up on the'Antique Road Show'.
64

A big boy dun it an ran away,

15/06/2008 10:55:31
It's Sunday have you guys no got the grass tae mow
65

Roy,

15/06/2008 11:02:58
I've just had a quick word with Jacob about this. He said it was a damned uncomfortable thing and he was glad to get rid of it and replace it with a nice eider down pillow.
66

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 11:09:24
86. Buttock massage - no stern untoned...
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/06/2008 11:12:43
#2 I don't think that Salmond used the word "fake". That originated from the sensationalist headline writer.
68

Braes of Glenmiller,

The Mists of History....... 15/06/2008 11:41:47
The true story, with tongue in cheek, can be viewed here....

http://surrealiteeeee.blogspot.com/

Besides what is fake these days? Apart from a Labour party election expenses sheet.
69

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 11:44:15
Drum Major (84): "If it is fake(and it probably is) not only are all those monarchs crowned at Westminister not lawful Kings/Queens of Scotland"

Or alternatively basing the right to kingship on poorly fashioned lumps of masonry is silly. It's probably time to remember some wisdom from a great film mostly filmed in Scotland: Monty Python and the Holy Grail -- "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government."
Ditto for patio slabs.
70

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 11:49:25
72 - George Bernard Shaw once said that there were enough pieces of the True Cross around to build a battleship.
I suspect also that there are enough Holy Grails around to stock a wine bar.
71

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 11:51:34
85 - later on , if it disnae rain !
72

,

15/06/2008 11:53:46
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73

,

15/06/2008 11:58:07
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74

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 11:59:07
A Voice (95): "Imagine the humiliation and hurt to the Sassenach establishment to discover that even stealing the records of Scotland and removing her coronation stone has not subdued this nation."

Yes, it's truly stunning. Are those the wails of English women, crying in shame at Anglo-Saxon humiliation? Well, no, I think I'm hearing laughter: "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government." Ditto for patio slabs.
75

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 12:03:38
"Terribilis est locus iste"

There's another Lia Fail, it's on the top of the Hill of Tara, and it's shaped like a phallus...

The late Wendy Wood knew of the whereabouts of the "real" Wee Magic Stane", I'd sus that it's a meteorite, like that contained in the Kabaa in Mecca, an Egyptian benben stone with heiroglyphs. Jacob (if he existed) would have communicated in the dominant language of the Middle East at that time - ancient Egyptian.

Maybe it's all a myth, everyone likes myths, there are modern ones such as the idea that Celts never existed or that Scotland is an Anglo-Saxon country.
76

Calgacas,

15/06/2008 12:04:36
Nick Aitchison gives an excellent account, bringing together history, mythology and archaeology, in his book called called "Scotlands Stone Of Destiny", worth a read.
77

Schot,

15/06/2008 12:12:01
We must be humble. We are so easily baffled by appearances
And do not realise that these stones are at one with the stars.
It makes no difference to them whether they are high or low,
Mountain peak or ocean floor, palace, or pigsty.
- MacDiarmid
78

,

15/06/2008 12:22:11
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79

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 15/06/2008 12:34:17
Who cares? It's just a piece of rock, and it's up there with the Turin Shroud and grave of St Patrick in terms of great fakes
80

donald,

glasgow 15/06/2008 12:35:04
The, Perthsire sandstone, taken to Westminster, was a cesspit cover, for bums of English Kings and Queens to sit on for 700 years. The real Lia Fal was, of course, black marble creosite. Edward came back three months later and sacked the surrounding area for the genuine article, but kept the Lavvy Pan lid for his Throne anyways. The Stane was to be returned after the Treaty of Northampton. The Scots did not bother to collect it, knowing it was a fake: although the London mob was going to refuse to allow its delivery.

Everyone and his auntie knows that Baillie Gray made a few copies and a bummer was returned to Westminster. The sculptor noticed a crack, which the retrievers thought was down to them. It was in fact a reminder of the Stane being blown up by Suffregates. Bailie Gray rejoied it wa a metal tube containing a cheeky not about the Queen's derrier sitting on stolen property.

Not faraway rom old sculptor at Sauchiehall Street, the Arlington Bar in Woodlands Road claims to have the real one, left in the cellar and now on display, thanks to its Dublin manager. I have sat on it declared myself the King of the Scottish Socialist Republic.
81

Neil,

Glasgow 15/06/2008 12:42:56
Well OK it almost certainly isn't the biblical "Joseph's pillow" but so what. If we assume that magic doesn't actually work & that it & any other such stone is a stone vested with ritual significance then what does it matter.

It has been Scotland's only Stone of Destiny for 700 years which makes it older than most countries national symbols.
82

Aqwes,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 12:50:02
Most likely it's the real thing. Has there been any rumour of it being otherwise before the modern era? I would suggest that the idea that fakes were made is a ploy to maintain some sort of national pride; a way of getting "one up" on our neighbour to the south when clearly they had gotten "one up" on us.

The replicas are face-saving devices.
83

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 12:54:20
Aqwes,Edinburgh

The real stone and the one we currently have are made from different stone.

It was suppose to be marble but the one we have is similar to sandstone.

Salmond has rejected science to prove it but he was right to do so because it if it was proved a fake then what is its worth?
84

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 13:07:14
102 grave of St Paddy ? where's that ?

The Turin Shroud is a little more complex than to dismissed as a mere fake. Fake it might be ( in the sense that the image isnae Jesus) but 'mere' it aint !
85

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 13:09:05
104 - err, JACOB'S pillow. and he must have got a sair heid using that lump as a pillow !
86

Mcsnagpile,

15/06/2008 13:24:11
Everybody knows it teamed up with Mike Swagger
87

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 13:45:21
A Voice (101): "Your agenda fairfax is plain for all to see"

My agenda is a simple one: I'm an English academic, with Scots family and friends, who wants the Union to end. Your political ramblings probably damage the independence cause, which I support. I want Scotland to become a modern republic, not reduce itself to the pathetic Ossian-style nationalism to which you seem to aspire.

"You make great claims to being a lecturer or something at some uni. yet when challenged to do so you cannot make reference to any work or papers you may have published."

I'm a mathematician at Cambridge -- hardly a great claim, since there are so many of us -- who prefers to remain anonymous. Given AM2's experience, I don't think I'll be changing that. Still, to give an arch reference to my work, you could consider concentration of measure; I'll leave the rest to you.
88

A big boy dun it an ran away,

15/06/2008 13:50:58
Cumon doon aff the computer noo luv yer soups ready
89

Frank K,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 13:55:44
When you think about it, the Scots forces would have had many weeks' notice that Edward I and the English forces were coming. Knowing Edward's track record both here and abroad, do you really believe that the Scone clergy would leave the original stone lying about? A central symbol of Scottish Nationality & Independance? No way - yet to just hide it would bring the wrath of Edward I down on them even more so. Why not make a replacement - Edward I wouldn't know any better. Let him take that, with sufficient protests from Scone! Of course its a fake! But whether it is the fake that Edward I took to London, or another fake created in the 1950s 'retrieval' - that is the question at issue! By all accounts, the Lia Fail was black shiny Onyx carved with intricate Pictish symbols. It is told that Robert the Bruce (suspecting Edward's intent) placed it in the keeping of the Lord of the Isles - to be kept hidden & safe until Scotland needed it again.
90

,

15/06/2008 13:55:47
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91

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 14:04:59
Traquir (114): "Of course this news has just been broken by an English Newspaper not a Scottish
one - Telegraph see - tinyurl.com/54wl8e"

The correct link is:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2131258/North-Sea-oil-will-last-for-100-years'.html

Perhaps the First Minister should replace the Stone of Scone with some of the oil-bearing rocks from the North Sea: they're much more useful to Scotland than tired myth.
92

busbyfh,

15/06/2008 14:26:20
Have it tested Alex , the truth is out there.

PS - Did the English not copy the copy to the copy just before giving us the stone back a few years ago. Sandstone from Kent ?
93

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 14:31:10
busbyfh (117): "PS - Did the English not copy the copy to the copy"

Oh no! We've been found out! To be frank, few knew of the Stone here in England, and fewer cared.
94

busbyfh,

15/06/2008 14:51:01
Tongue in cheek of course # 118

By your remarks I take it English history was not tought in your schools. I have suspected as much for years.

Beware Cromwell !

95

posh dundonian,

near dundee 15/06/2008 15:04:15
now way is that dockie on kinnoull hill.
its at the tap o' the la' hill in dundee.
wee eck should get sumdee to mak' a new one ken.
96

Who Dares Wins,

15/06/2008 15:04:47
What does Alex Salmong know?

Did he read a library book on the subject? Did he regurgitate someone elses opinion?

My guess is that this charlatan has done no original research, is there no subject this embarassment to Scotland won't pretend to be an "expert" on?
97

busbyfh,

15/06/2008 15:09:05
# 121

Pseudo Govan ?
Holiday recently in Manchester ?
Head still bandaged ?
98

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 15:09:31
busbyfh (119): "By your remarks I take it English history was not tought in your schools. "

English history was indeed taught, but not Scottish myth. I recall some surprise when, visiting Westminster Abbey as a boy, being told that the Stone of Scone was still there, not least because it seemed to be irrelevant: what does it matter that Edward I took a possibly spurious stone? What would it matter if he'd taken the "real" stone, with its dubious quasi-history? It obviously had significance in medieval England and Scotland, but its importance should be long past.
99

Tiger Earl,

cordoba 15/06/2008 15:11:42
Whether the Stone of Destiny is Scone sandstone or brought from the Holy Land is irrelevant. What is extremely relevant is that it was taken by Edward I and held for centuries in England as a symbol of Scottish subjection. Its rightful place is in Scotland, and if it is "lent" to the English for the next coronation, better make bloody sure you get it back!!
100

A big boy dun it an ran away,

15/06/2008 15:14:13
Ah've made yi's aw a wee cup aye tea so yi's can aw cam doon, an if yi's hurry up ther'll be a choclit biskit left.
101

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 15/06/2008 15:15:29
Boy, has this story elicited MUCH comment - most of it actually serious and not silly.

But even Dr. Wilkie's interesting and seemingly informed post at #44 is questioned, perhaps justifiably, by another poster.

Like the relics and remains of Catholic saints and martyrs found in many of their churches, is it not the "belief" in the miraculous qualities and genuine nature of the relic that invokes miracles whether the relics in question come from a dubious provenance.

Maybe the "belief" the this Stone of Scone is genuine will quell some of the furore in this thread.

But then, the nationalistic temper of this vexed and ever-recurring subject will just impel those with a republican nature to voice their democratic right to an opinion.

Also, it is publicity for the upcoming movie that no amount of money could buy.
102

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 15:23:02
YAWN.
103

LEAL,

15/06/2008 15:23:59
why no story about Wendy and her fraud?
why no story about scotlands oil reserves?
how much is the daily tax take on scotlands oil?

104

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 15:29:55
Mikko.

If you have nothing constructive to mention then please keep yourself from commenting.
105

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 15:30:46
Tiger Earl (124): "What is extremely relevant is that it was taken by Edward I and held for centuries in England as a symbol of Scottish subjection."

That's certainly true, and clearly Edward I still has significance for Scots, given his appearance in the de facto anthem Flower of Scotland. I suppose England should be flattered by its central role in the Scottish story, but the obsession isn't always healthy.

"Its rightful place is in Scotland, and if it is "lent" to the English for the next coronation"

It has no significance here in England -- we have better medieval relics. For example, when every new archbishop of Canterbury is enthroned, the 6th century Gospel book in Corpus Christi Library, here in Cambridge, is used. It's the oldest illustrated Latin Gospel book on the planet, and much more beautiful than rough hewn masonry. If there is still a King of Scots after Elizabeth, then perhaps he will be crowned on the Stone in Scotland.
106

democracy,

Scottish Borders 15/06/2008 15:36:21
#14 monkey girlie, Do you actually think that the posters of this article, even the anti snp, take any of YOUR remarks seriously, dragging the debate down with your childish little innuendos!
Obviously a hater of fat or overweight people, so I am assuming that you are a slender little crossdresser!!!
A fake symbol of power? A wee laughable parliament!
That is much better than being a huge laughable foreign parliament, and the BIGGEST joke of all is, guess who????
107

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 15:46:51
#129 If you have nothing to contribute to all our problems today apart from views on a worthless piece of rock, please keep it to yourself.
108

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 15:52:28
This Stone of Destiny rap is as bogus as King Arthur's Sword that can "onlu be pulled out of the rock by the chosen one". If you're a wee Scot who likes Horlicks and a wee fairy tale at night, I've no problem with that but keep the nonsense to yourself between your own four walls.

Ps. Ironically Sean Connery (the Self Proclaimed King of Scotland) actually played King Arthur. Now that is funny. Yawn.
109

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 16:02:53
Mikko (135): "Ironically Sean Connery (the Self Proclaimed King of Scotland) actually played King Arthur."

I'd forgotten that, as part of my general attempt to forget all films containing Richard Gere. Still, I agree that Sean should be King of Scots, but on condition that he star in a remake of Zardoz in the Edinburgh Festival. We could work the Stone in somewhere, I'm sure. Charlotte Rampling can be in it too.
110

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 16:12:35
#136 LOL!
111

Exiledlassie,

15/06/2008 16:15:05
How come this is making such a headline?
The thing in Edinburgh castle bears no resemblance whatsoever to the ancient descriptions of the Stone. It isn't black, it isn't carved, it is Scone sandstone etc.

The ideal that it is a fake did not originate with Mr Salmond.
Surely the really interesting questions is Where is it really?

112

Paddi,

15/06/2008 16:22:22
Wendy's a fake, actually where is she?????
113

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 16:23:03
#139 Now come on Methalions, yes we have our disagreements but admit it, like me you loved a Milky Bar when you were 8 years old; I know I did!
114

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 16:24:49
Exiledlassie (138): "Surely the really interesting questions is Where is it really?"

It will be appearing in the Edinburgh remake of Zardoz (cf 136), together with Excalibur, the True Cross, and two of the extant foreskins of Jesus.
115

A big boy dun it an ran away,

15/06/2008 16:26:07
The fitba's cumin on so mind and switch yer computer aff before cumin doon the stairs.
116

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 16:31:28
Methalions (142): "Zardoz - the worst film I've ever had the misfortune to see. "

John Boorman certainly wasn't at his best. Still, I can forgive any film with a young Charlotte Rampling, Beethoven 7, and a big stone head. Getting that many actors to intone "The p*enis is bad, the gun is good" with straight faces must have taken some effort (or vast quantities of sodium pentathol, it being the early 1970s).
117

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 16:42:16
And what about Sean's costume? Crossed bandoliers holding up a pair of speedos, the ensemble finished off with a pair of thigh boots.

What Meths wears to his gigs I believe;-)
118

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 15/06/2008 17:01:08
The Stone of Destiny taken to Westminster, if it had been the correct coronation stone, could nevertheless have been of local Scone sandstone. Scone was, I believe a seat of the kings of the old Pictish Kingdom, so the stone could have been there for a long time before.

What makes me think it is not real is that the Picts were incredible stone carvers; look at the many Pictish carved stones, the Sweyno stone, the Maiden stone, not least the many in Angus and Pertshire, at Aberlemno etc. If this had been used for Pictish coronations, surely it would have ranked as one of the most venerated stone objects and would surely have been carved with crescent moons, arrows, animals, combs, mirrors, warriors or some other symbols for which they were famous.

I don't think that being Scone sandstone that is the problem, it is the lack of symbols carved into it. I think it was an ordinary building block that was taken. On this I agree with Salmond.
119

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15/06/2008 17:04:35
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,

15/06/2008 17:05:43
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15/06/2008 17:13:09
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,

15/06/2008 17:13:45
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15/06/2008 17:15:36
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,

15/06/2008 17:18:17
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125

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 17:19:01
Now, now. It's a time for peace and healing. God knows I've had my fun along with many others showing up the SNP for the fools they are in so many places but I also voted for them last time and still want them to succeed. So SNP don't mess it up by going all parochial. You have the unionists on the run now. We can always make fun of them on a new issue but sooner or later if you really mean it for Scotland then go for it. Stop dithering. Look at the egit Gordon, for god’s sake.
126

Geoff,

sa 15/06/2008 17:19:13
The Scone oh Questionly is a Cake!
127

Western Gael,

15/06/2008 17:22:38
Ah, Scotland, happy Scotland, so blessed by the fortunes that her First Minister can find time to worry over the provenance of the Stone of Destiny. Would that I could be likewise favored by the fates!
128

lulach mac gille coemgain,

15/06/2008 17:24:45
I hear that all the Loud Moanin’ done in Scotland is just Wendy Alexander ‘Fakin’ it’ !
129

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 17:26:33
#154 thanks for totally spoiling my dinner!
130

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 15/06/2008 17:30:14
One further comment on the 'Stone'. Despite what was said when it returned north, I do not believe that it is politically acceptable for it to be returned to Wesminster Abbey for a coronation. I think those responsible for the organisation of such ceremonies are going to have to carry out a coronation in Scotland. After all, independent or not, we already have a Crown, Sword of State etc to carry out the procedure. St Giles Cathedral is a suitable venue. There is no reason why their cannot be a coronation in Scotland as well as England. Charles II had two coronations. It would be good for tourism not only at the time but afterwards as well. What is the point of having the Scottish crown if it is not used once in the monarch's lifetime.
131

Geoff,

sa 15/06/2008 17:54:35
Changeing that slightly-
"The Scone oh Questionably is a Cake".
I thought that was quite a clever play on words!
Unappreciated and unloved! :(
132

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 17:58:37
A few years ago they asked me to do a phone in on the Loch Ness Monster on Sport Talk radio. One question was about the "CIA pods growing alien beings in Loch Ness". It was hard to answer but I did my best on live radio.

#157 comes close to that one.
133

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 15/06/2008 18:02:31
#56 #120. Sorry about the delay. I have been elsewhere in the meantime.

When we raised the issue of the Stone of Destiny in a United Nations committee in Paris in the 1980s the Glasgow Herald gave it front page treatment, and it raised a riot on the Herald's letters page for weeks afterwards. The paper's political correspondent took it direct to the UN, where the correctness of the story was verified.

The story of the stone that was found by shepherd boys in an underground chamber on Dunsinnan Hill in 1812 was reported in the local newspaper along with a description of the object as of black basalt-type stone, finely worked with runic inscriptions, and high enough to sit on. This tallies exactly with the traditional description of the Stone that has been handed down through the ages. It also agrees with the pictures of the Stone that appear on the mediaeval Scottish coinage, and which bear no resemblance to the Westminster stone. The late Hugh (?) McKerracher of Dunblane, a well-known local historian, wrote it up in an article for the Scots Magazine, mentioning the Scotland-UN initiative in Paris.

Unfortunately the documentation of the United Nations action is not among the Scotland-UN papers that have been posted on the internet (there are so many hundreds that it would be impracticable to publish all of them, and the site is in the throes of a major updating at the moment). I can only suggest that you contact the website and leave your email address, and a copy of the Stone of Destiny paper will be sent to you as soon as possible:

info@realmofscotland.com

www.realmofscotland.com

134

Geoff,

sa 15/06/2008 18:04:03
159 Methalions-thanks Meths-you're such a comfort.
135

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 18:11:29
#161 Nessie takes a wide view: Celtic look good but Rangers aren't half bad either. She's not quite made her mind up just yet.
136

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 18:19:21
Geoff, the stone of Jaffa? Pip Pip hurrah!
137

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 15/06/2008 18:20:26
#165 Not necessarily. Nessie is nothing if not a pragmatist.
138

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 18:21:55
167
A fair weather fiend?
139

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 18:24:02
136 - you havenae see "Walk Hard", the bogus Johnny Cash biopic yet ? 2 hours wasted oot of my life when I saw that pile o keech back in January
140

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 18:31:13
170
"Faster pussycat, kill kill" is a contender, Shirley?
141

Geoff,

sa 15/06/2008 18:41:38
166 Conan-:)
168 Conan-a fair weather fiend or the Knock Less Lobster
142

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 18:44:39
170 naw it was so bad it was enjoyable. Walk Hard repeats and flogs to death alleged funny bits. Avoid at all costs.
143

Geoff,

sa 15/06/2008 18:51:36
176 Meths-ah well meths,to paraphrase the words of the immortal OW"The only thing worse than being laughed at is not being laughed at!"
144

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 18:57:44
177
Good game against the Welsh Geoff, was in a pub crawl and only caught bits of it.
145

Geoff,

sa 15/06/2008 19:04:20
178 Methalions-fine meths. Lovely time of the year here weatherwise. Hope u are well.
146

radge dug,

15/06/2008 19:11:12
Where is the Lia Fàil?

Who cares?

Wonder why the Sos didn't lead with the Wendy Alexander story that the Herald used?
147

Geoff,

sa 15/06/2008 19:12:37
181 Conan the l-twas indeed. The Welsh are a great side to watch
186 Meths-ouch-lotsa suncream time! -its our winter with daytime temps in the moderate 70's.
148

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 19:13:26
185
AM2, I'm sure many that post here will say so.

So what do you believe then?
149

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/06/2008 19:16:36
185. AM2, do tell what is crackpottish about thinking that the stone may have been switched at Scone, or that it might have been (as it was documented as a polished black stone) meteoritic?

Seem not very outlandish thoughts/ speculations. I have heard more outlandish things of late, such as Iraq had WMD ready to go at 45 minutes notice, Britain was not cooperating with rendition, Iraq was involved in 9/11....
150

An Beal Bacht,

15/06/2008 19:16:39
The lump ae sandstone IS a fake. Aw thon stories aboot it comin fae Palestine are just keech made up by the Vatican. MI5 have been searchin for the real wan for years because the Bilderberg Conspiracy need it to consolidate their control ower humanity. But we're no gein it up. Naw - they cannae have it It's oors.

When the rightful King returns the stone shall be revealed and humanity liberated fae the dark forces. Aye!
151

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 19:21:10
193
Do tell.
152

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 15/06/2008 19:23:56
Salmond's finally lost it. Who gives a fhock if it's a dud? He's a dud.
153

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 19:24:31
194
You forgot the bit about him eating children's guinea pigs...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/animals/animals-headlines/alex-salmond-killed-your-guinea-pig,-blair-tells-scots-children-20070502109/
154

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/06/2008 19:26:00
195. Conan

Meths appears in todays print and online Sunday Herald:

http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.2342312.0.alas_journalists_are_no_longer_in_charge_of_the_asylum.php
155

brownlie,

15/06/2008 19:28:55
194 AM2

Are you familiar with the expression "Fools laugh at their own folly"?
156

,

15/06/2008 19:34:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
157

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/06/2008 19:36:05
203. Wendy Alexander and must be a laugh riot then
158

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 19:36:55
202
Thanks Ayrshire. Where is oscar...?
159

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/06/2008 19:42:42
208. Detained without charge....summat about a car?
160

brownlie,

15/06/2008 19:42:46
204 AM2

No!
161

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 19:45:34
211
42 days?
162

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/06/2008 19:48:24
214. Fraid so. But he is getting £3000 a day.
163

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 19:49:42
215
That's an awful lot of Volkswagens.
164

A Better Way,

Republic of Scotland 15/06/2008 19:53:12
The Scotsman described the Stone of Destiny as a"Nats Stone". Well I am sorry but they are wrong again. It is the property of the Scottish People. If the right wing rag with an English Editor means that they are disqualified from owning the stone, then their assumption is right.

Whatever it actually is, its definately not for a foreign queen to sit on to be crowned. Alex Salmond is merely commenting on what most historians believe. The Stone of Destiny could be a fake, but unlike the Unionist totalitarian state we Scots are entitled to our opinion. The Unionist Traitors will have the option of going to live in their beloved London if they dont want to be part of a Sovereign State of Scotland. As for our friend who only supports the SNP if it gets rid of people who are of a different origin, wanting to be Scots. Then the old saying goes if you dont love it LEAVE, If you do love it WELCOME. The issue of Independance has absolutely no relevance to our future after Independance. Like all countries our political system will be open to all, except Unionist Traitors
165

catgut,

pomona 15/06/2008 20:03:28
Do you need to crown kings in a republic?
166

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/06/2008 20:05:08
218. Even kings need dental care
167

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 20:05:45
218
Only when you are playing draughts.

But I ken whit ye mean;-)
168

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 20:09:10
219
Another sheer dentalist post from Ayrshire.
169

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 20:14:45
221
Nice AM2.
Do you still have the Traction Avant?
170

Nikostratos,

15/06/2008 20:23:45
#221 #217

Thats because he is a German.

JOKES FROM GERMANY

Knock, knock.
Who's there?
The police. I'm afraid there's been an accident. Your husband is in
hospital.

A man walks into a pub.
He is an alcoholic whose drink problem is destroying his family.

Why do women fake orgasms?
Because they want to give men the impression that they have climaxed.

Two men are sitting in a pub.
One man turns to the other and says: 'Last night I saw lots of strange men
coming in and out of your wife's house.'
The other man replies: 'Yes, she has become a prostitute to subsidise her
drug habit.'

Two cows are in a field. Suddenly, from behind a bush, a rabbit leaps out
and runs away.
One cow looks round a bit, eats some grass and then wanders off.

Why are there no aspirin in the jungle?
Because it would not be financially viable to attempt to sell
pharmaceuticals in the largely unpopulated rainforest.
171

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 20:29:24
224
Niko
TAKE YOUR MEDS NOW!

Phew...
172

Nikostratos,

15/06/2008 20:31:06
"Herr Ober, nehmen Sie sofort den Daumen aus meiner Suppe!"

- "Entschuldigung, mein Herr, aber ich habe da ein Geschw?r. Und der Arzt hat gesagt, da? ich es warmhalten soll."

- "Dann stecken Sie sich den Daumen doch in den Arsch!"

- "Tu ich ja, aber ab und zu mu? ich ja auch servieren."

=============================================

"Waiter, would you please get your thumb out of my soup?"

- "So sorry sir, but I have a boil and the doctor told me to keep it warm."

- "Well why don't you just stick it up your ass?"

- "I do sir, but I've got to serve customers occasionally..."
173

Braes of Glenmiller,

Spade and hidden... 15/06/2008 20:37:42
True location...

http://surrealiteeeee.blogspot.com/

..where reputattions and "legends" are told told GTF

Regards,

Dr Strangebear
174

,

15/06/2008 20:48:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
175

Media 1,

cape town 15/06/2008 20:49:59
How apt! One fake calling another fake.
176

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/06/2008 20:51:00
229. Said the flake...
177

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 20:51:05
228
And what do you propose COE'67?
178

Media 1,

cape town 15/06/2008 20:57:00
Europe 76

We have NOT been ruled by England since 1707, we have been in partnership with England since 1707. There is a massive difference.
You see, you actually believe that Scotland is this wee dog that is at the mercy of the big dog England, because that is how you see yourself. Whereas I believe that Scotland is an equal player whose place at the big union table is one of massive importance. Scotland in my eyes, is no wee dog, she is a real player in a real partnership!
179

BK,

Cyberspace 15/06/2008 20:57:47
Sop my comment was censored because I suggested the the queens coronation might not be valid because one end of her was sitting on the wrong stone while the other end was being crowned!
180

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 20:59:48
232
psst...
It's 67;-)
181

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 21:10:26
Good Evening Kent2.
How are you today?
182

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 21:15:39
232 Media 1,cape town.

Equal?

Did South East of England not get a boast from Scottish Oil while Mrs Thatcher was closing down our Industries?

Does English Members of Parliament not dominate the House of Commons? 59 Scottish MP's against over 500++ English MP's?

Is it not England who is wanting to spend billions that we do not have for another generation of Nuclear Power Stations?

Is it not England who is asking for councils if they are willing to host nuclear waste?

Is it not England who wants to spend billions that we do not have on a new generation of Trident?

All which the Scottish Goverment is against.

Can I ask where the equality is when it is obviose England holds the balance of power?

183

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 21:17:11
236
Hmm.
So the recent report about the Anglocentric BBC has passed you by AM2?
184

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 21:19:40
238
Are they nearly done?
185

Media 1,

cape town 15/06/2008 21:20:20
Thomas

Scotland is a very important player in the partnership! I see Scotland as a BIG nation, not some little whimpering dog like you see her!!

If you want to adopt the wee whimpering attitude because victim mode is your style, then go right ahead, but leave the rest of us to hold our heads up high.
186

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 21:29:28
244
Funny name.
Your views are so much more refined and acceptable.
187

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 21:34:29
Evening Meths
Quite sunny, had a barbecue.
188

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 21:38:17
Media 1,cape town

"but leave the rest of us to hold our heads up high."

For what?

Are you proud that Britain during the Empire Era killed thousands and forced our culture upon our colonies?

Even now in Iraq are you proud that Britain has contributed to the destruction of a country?

Terrorists was never a major concern until Britain attempted to play the 'World Power'

The Nationalists will keep bringing the Scottish National Party back into power until we are Independent.

Least the Nationalists are able to say I don't want to be apart of it (Britain). Scotland can do better solo.

Pfft. Equality? I never heard of it here.
189

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 21:38:39
255
Methinks he has posted here before...
190

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 21:44:36
262
A C@nt?
191

r1niceboy,

yankeeland 15/06/2008 21:50:08
The original stone was supposed to have been the one jacob rasted his head on when he dreamt of a ladder ascending to heaven. That stone was black basalt. The one the English stole in the 13th C. was probably a random piece of masonry. Consider the fact the same crusading types would see a plank laying in the holy land and decide it was a piece of the true cross. They were given a random piece of fallen architecture and told to bvgger off.

The students who stole the stone from westminster broke it, and the one they returned was whole.

Who knows where the original is, if it ever existed. Salmond knows that controversy is the new test of faith, and will do everything possible to keep an argument raging.
192

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 21:51:09
263 Ken Wyles-Thenoux.

Compare the situation now from the IRA issue.

Has Britain ever put in so much effort to deal with the IRA compared to battling the Islamic Terrorists we face today?

No course not. Today, it has gone out of hand by far. We have lost the plot and now are sending soldiers abroad when we should be securing Britain and put more resources into ensuring that we are not harmed.
193

indune1,

Canada 15/06/2008 21:51:35

Hah! The Portgies lost and Turkey - game lil' bugg*rs prevailed!

Meths and Conan, how are ye today? Hot and humid here with violent thunderstorms. All right if you are safe and under cover. Cheers.
194

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 22:00:01
Ken Wyles-Thenoux.

Because Britain has lost the plot and right now is heading towards a possible reccesion while having to serve in Iraq and Afganistan.

I and others, some who are not Nationalists want to jump ship now before we are dragged into further rubbish.
195

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 15/06/2008 22:01:52
SCOTLAND SHOULD BE SCOTTISH ONLY. let everyone come and visit and the go to their home.
if you can't claim 1000 years of heritage then no citizenship. or at least something like that. we scots have our own characteristics and no one else is quit like us. it's taken me 74 years to know that. oh yeah i am 185 all muscle. gym 3 times a week and jujitsu 2 times. ain't nobody like me except maybe in scotland
casey purvis
196

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 22:11:11
Ken Wyles-Thenoux.

I'd rather stay in Scotland and continue to support Independence.

2010 boy I am feeling lucky ;-)
197

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 22:12:28
275 P. Cech impersonating Malkowski !
198

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 22:28:43
Ken Wyles-Thenoux.

Propaganda?

You will have to wait till 2010 when they present the Bill in Parliament, then if they don't you may call it propaganda.

Have you suggested that each SNP supporter must be as intelligent as a 16 year old to vote for the SNP?

My, what a quick way to make 'friends'

Ah, you forget to mention that Lib Dems and several Labour figures support the age reduction.
199

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 15/06/2008 22:51:41
Just how gullible are you lot? To ensure that the stone retrieved from Westminster was a fake, a fake was substituted for it. This ensured that the 'fake' is a genuine fake! Anyone who thinks the current stone is a genuine fake can be assured that the fake is genuine! Therefore, we have a genuine stone in Edinburgh Castle.
200

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 15/06/2008 23:32:09
#145. Voice well done flushed them out again. As predictable as the rising sun. Troll HQ has scraped through the bottom of the barrel.

Loved the way you sent the faifax one crashing to earth in flames.

Alex has them dancing a merry jig.
201

Brianwci,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 00:23:45
Fake or no fake, Salmond's comments and articles like this will boost the film's ticket sale's worldwide and therefore Scottish Tourism (a la Da Vinci Code). Well done Alex.....he never rests.

I was told by Wendy Wood back in the 60s that the Stone was fake and on another occasion by Arthur Donaldson, SNP Chairman at the time. The whereabouts of the real stone were known to only a handful of Scots. According to Wendy and Arthur the real Stone will be produced on the first day of Independence.
202

MichScot,

USA 16/06/2008 00:58:56
It seems to me that the present stone does not match either of the descriptions mentioned as being in the old documentation. So it IS possible that this one is some hastily substituted forgery, since the English probably had no real description of it. It could have been something left around from a building project or one that was about to be underway--and that project did not have to be on the premises.

And since Edward supposedly also destroyed almost all the old Pictish papers, I would think that there would be those Scotsmen around who would do such a heroic deed as to substitute something else the stone. The Scottish spirit has been, historically, one of strength and pride.

Just think of the preacher's wife who hid the Honours of Scotland under the floorboards of the church in Kineff.
203

MichScot,

USA 16/06/2008 01:07:54
It saddens me to read the so many people have no pride in their heritage.
A wise man once said that to conquer a people, all that is really needed is to destroy a sense of pride in their national history and to make their women feel shame in their men.
204

Edward,

16/06/2008 01:57:31
THis is actually a non story
If anyone cares to read the piece carefully they will find that Alex Salmon's comments are anecdotal and are not in any way an official statement or expression
But this paper being what it is , has jumped on it and dressing it up to be something that its not
205

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 16/06/2008 04:46:23
Australia 18, Ireland 12. A good game with the right result.
206

An Beal Bacht,

16/06/2008 08:12:40
198 AM2, Scotland,UK 15/06/2008 19:23:52 wrote:

"Or maybe not. Perhaps the real An Beal Bacht is buried up Kinnoull Hill. ;-)"

The real An Beal Bacht is alive and well and residing at John Smith House.


BTW;

Harmonia
11/07/08
ABC Glasgow, Glasgow

OSAKA INVASION featuring Scotch Egg, Bogulta, Ove Naxx, Maruosa
12/07/08
ABC Glasgow, Glasgow

Harvey Milk + Oxbow
13/07/08
Stereo, Glasgow

Nina Nastasia
03/08/08
Stereo, Glasgow

Acid Mothers Temple
08/08/08
Nice N Sleazy, Glasgow

Jason Molina
11/09/08
ABC Glasgow, Glasgow

Ladyhawk
26/09/08
Nice N Sleazy, Glasgow

Camille
20/10/08
ABC Glasgow, Glasgow

Chatham County Line
20/11/08
The Arches, Glasgow

Slainte
207

Mr Lucky,

My computer 16/06/2008 09:43:22
It's entirely possible that the Great Leader is right and the Stone is nothing than a privy cover; he's not the only historian that thinks it's a fake. Does it matter? No, of course not, the Stone of Scone is a symbol of Scottish Nationhood whether it is really the Stone of Destiny, or not.

Since we origionally borrowed it from the Irish I wonder why they've never asked for it to be returned to Tara?
208

Fairfax,

16/06/2008 10:08:59
A Voice (145): "That really sums up your agenda on here. England is better than Scotland."

Not in all things, but England does have better medieval relics: the historicity of a dubious stone mass is not Scottish nationalism's finest hour. I've only just seen your long diatribe -- certainly an interesting portrait of your mental health. On the other hand, perhaps you're a closet Unionist, since your nationalist ranting is almost too extreme to be genuine.

Still, I'm bemused that you believe me to be a Unionist. To say again: I want Scotland to become an independent state, preferably a republic, and to say adieu to English-obsessed victimhood and the silly mysticism of patio slabs.
209

Phil the Flooter,

16/06/2008 10:31:41
145 etc AVFFS

Sounds like Fairfax has REALLY p....d you off..

There is a 'fake' Stone on Boot hill at Scone Palace, but surely a nice Black one carved with symbols would be more photogenic for the Punters to be photographed alongside. If we have to have fakes , they could at least show a bit of imagination.
210

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 16/06/2008 10:37:41
#162 Dr. James Wilkie

Thank you for further commenting on the subject of the Stone of Scone.

Now if only post #56 sm753 would come back to this site and read your later comments then perhaps that person would see that you have provided means for all of us to further investigate this vexed subject of the Stone of Scone/Destiny.

And why this thread devolved into a discussion of the movie "Zardoz" is beyond me - although some of the comments were hilarious.

Dr. Wilkie

One can only hope that the time you took to add another posting will comfort skeptics such as sm753 @ #56 and he or she will have the courtesy to read it.

Also, your posting has been renumbered to #38 for some reason. Lately, the Scotsman has been doing that and it confuses some of us.
211

Herne the Hunter,

All of Scotland 16/06/2008 11:27:04
The First Minister is absolutely correct the stone is a medieval fake ,it is in actual fact the plug or door to the floor chamber where the real Stone of Destiny was kept. The time is now right for the true story of both stones to be told .
To find the true description of the Stone of Destiny, we must look at the great seals of the Scottish Kings prior to Bruce.There is a illustration in the letter D of David in the Kelso charter showing the king sitting on a round stone, in fact all the seals show the kings, including John Balliol, sitting on a round polished stone.
Then we must also look at Walter de Hemingford's description of John Balliol's coronation that describes the stone thus,"Concavus, Quidem ad Modem Rotundae Cathedrae Confectus"

Edward the First did not take it to London, Edward the second did. At the treaty of Northhampton the Scots were asked if wanted it back and Robert the Bruce said no they did not want it, that should answer the question.
212

Sedov,

Scotland 16/06/2008 11:33:44
We should rename them - The Salmond Stones
213

HughB,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 11:48:29
It is very funny that it took the whole English army to steal the stone from Scotland (whether it is a fake or not), and it only took 4 Scots students to take it back for Scotland.

It is very tragic, however, that thousands were executed by Edwards army in pursuit of a "fake" stone, and that also if it is a fake, then none of the monarchs since Edward stole it would have legally been crowned King or Queen of England and Scotland.
This is why it is portraid as the authentic atricle by the establishment, and also in an effort to show how useless Edwards efforts were.
214

HughB,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 11:50:48
Of course, it also means that the real stone has remained in Scotland over the past 700 years, and so has the seat of Scottish power, even though the English try to make out that by taking the stone, they hold power over the Scots.
215

alba-cridhe,

16/06/2008 12:03:18
#303 - you really ned to get a reality check mate

this 'patio slab' was enough for one of Englands 'Greatest' kings to want to nick, and important and symbolic enough to keep it in the seat of power for the whole country.

as for the 'fence posts' of stonehenge....
216

Phil the Flooter,

16/06/2008 12:07:02
Why do some of you let Englishmen wind you up so much?

Pathetic.
217

Fairfax,

16/06/2008 12:14:28
alba-cridhe (310): "this 'patio slab' was enough for one of Englands 'Greatest' kings to want to nick"

It was extremely important for Edward I and his immediate successors in the medieval period, for the obvious reason that they wanted to dominate Scotland. It has had almost no relevance, at least to England, for several centuries. I'm surprised it has any relevance to Scotland.

"as for the 'fence posts' of stonehenge...."

I'm an Avebury fan myself, but standing stones do at least have the merit of engineering ability. It would be better for Scotland to care about Callanish, say, than the Stone of Scone.

218

alba-cridhe,

16/06/2008 12:24:47
#312

Would be interested to know why something of no relevance to England would need to kept under lock and key in westminster abbey for so long?

Seems like we can all place a high value on pieces of rock?

You arrogance is amazing, not only purporting to represent the views of what is or is not relevant to England you now want to tell the Scots what it would be better for them to care about.
219

Fairfax,

16/06/2008 12:56:37
alba-cridhe (313): "Would be interested to know why something of no relevance to England would need to kept under lock and key in westminster abbey for so long?"

Force of habit, I suspect. There was no English outcry, to my knowledge, when John Major returned the Stone, nor was security particularly high during the 1950's removal.

"You arrogance is amazing, not only purporting to represent the views of what is or is not relevant to England"

It's a view given on a forum, nothing more. If you believe my view of the Stone's modern irrelevance to England is true, then please exhibit evidence otherwise. The only English news reports on the Stone I can recall were those at the time of Major's return of the Stone: the dominant impression was very much one of surprise that the Stone was an issue in Scotland.

"you now want to tell the Scots what it would be better for them to care about."

Absolutely: almost anything would be preferable for Scottish nationalism than taking the Stone of Scone seriously. This is archaeology reduced to the level of Braveheart.
220

Mr White,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 14:02:10
So we have a pointless lump whose integrity has been called into question? Sounds like modern politics....
221

voltaire's janny,

16/06/2008 16:50:35
If it's a fake it's a 700 year old one.

The modern significance is in the fact that English Edward stole it (or the fake) expressly to subordinate the Scots and their monarch to his pretensions. Symbolically and literally under his erse he famously said (of Scotland) on one of his punitive campaigns, that a man did himself good to be rid of a turd.

"Bon besoigne fait qy de merde se delivrer"


So fake or no, this source of cringe needs to be where it now lies. As to its authenticity, I'm with Alex. It has been described as black, possibly from a meteor with glassy texture and carved all over in scenes and figures. The lump of rude sandstone that lay beneath her maj the Q for so long may indeed by a fake. OUR fake.
222

Fairfax,

16/06/2008 18:04:13
Voltaire's janny (316): "The modern significance is in the fact that English Edward stole it"

He took it as a spoil of war, certainly. I'm surprised his victories 700 years ago still engender such bitterness. What would be your view if, say, England petitioned France to return the Bayeux Tapestry, on the grounds that William the Conqueror humiliated the English? Would this strike you as reasonable?
223

H215,

New York 16/06/2008 18:35:27
I'd be ashamed if the Scots WEREN'T clever enough to hide the real stone. And what's with the "15 minutes" remark - it would have been days that they'd have known Edward was coming.

Here's hoping it was the toilet seat they fobbed off on him. That's what I'D have done! LOL!
224

dude,

wishy 16/06/2008 23:14:49
taken from http://www.philipcoppens.com/stone_destiny.html

If the real stone was substituted with a copy in 1950, then this would make the stone in Edinburgh Castle… a fake. But even if that were the case, there are those who doubt that the stone taken by Edward I in 1296 was the real one. Author Pat Gerber believes a fake stone was given to him, with the real stone secreted somewhere nearby. It may explain why Edward I sent a raiding party of knights back to Scone on August 17, 1298. They ripped the Abbey apart in a desperate search. But for what? The real Stone? Whatever they were looking for, it is known that they returned empty-handed. Furthermore, Gerber and others point out that the Treaty of Northampton in 1328 included the offer of return of the Stone. But the Scots did not ask for the insertion of that clause. Edward III offered it again in 1329, even suggesting the Queen Mother could take it to Berwick. Offered a final time in 1363, again, the Scots did not seem to want their talisman back. Did they know the “real one” was false?

the plot thickens, this story could be up there with roslin

225

alba-cridhe,

17/06/2008 07:55:37
Oh dear Fairfax - you don't quite get it do you - this is not archaology.

The Stone is part of Scotlands heritage and is more than a lump of rock, it has a value, symbolism and significance placed on it by many in this nation which far exceeds its physical value.

You can value your engineered standing stones or your aesthetically pleasing 6th century gospel book, we Scots are not unfamiliar with great feats of engineering or beauty – you only have to look around the country to see them.

I would not expect a man of numbers to understand something as complex as a nation of real human beings, with hearts and emotions but that is where the importance of the Stone lies. Those who value it do so because of what it represents and what we understand about ourselves and our nation.

Its relevance to England has been outlined in a number of the previous posts, and the fact that you yourself have spent so long on this forum in particular would indicate that despite what you would have us beleive - the stone holds some relevance to you too.

I wonder what Freud would say......
226

Fairfax,

17/06/2008 09:07:39
Alba-cridhe (314): "Oh dear Fairfax - you don't quite get it do you"

I really don't. I suspect that the Stone would now be insignificant if it had not been taken as a spoil of war by Edward I, in which case its importance ultimately rests in the campaigns of Edward I 700 years ago.

"the fact that you yourself have spent so long on this forum in particular would indicate that despite what you would have us beleive - the stone holds some relevance to you too."

It does now, in the sense that Scotland is relevant to me, and I had obviously underestimated the force of the irrational. Beyond that, I really am partly bemused by this. To take my earlier hypothetical example, what would be the Scottish reaction to English conservatives demanding the return of the Bayeux Tapestry from France, on the grounds that (i) it was probably made in Canterbury, and (ii) was a sign of English humiliation in 1066? Would this strike you as understandable "symbolism and significance"? What would be your view?
227

Schot,

17/06/2008 09:17:57
"This is archaeology reduced to the level of Braveheart." - fairfax

It isn't symbolism or archaelogy, it is symbology but that is no reason to be dismissive. Ignore the importance of symbology and you won't understand history enough to change it. Callanais has been co-opted as a Christian cross by the local community due to it's shape and inspite of it's age. In many ways what is believed is more important than what is true.
228

Fairfax,

17/06/2008 10:08:36
Schot (316): "Ignore the importance of symbology and you won't understand history enough to change it."

I don't deny its importance. In a sense, my wish to use mockery to deride the Stone is an acceptance of its importance to some Scots. As I said before, I want Scotland to become a modern independent republic, not reduce itself to Ossian-style nationalism.

"In many ways what is believed is more important than what is true."

Sometimes, but going too far along this route can lead us astray. Valuing fiction above truth is a dangerous path, particularly for nationalism: the sleep of reason produces monsters. Ultimately, I prefer history to myth, despite the beauty of the latter.
229

,

17/06/2008 10:11:40
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alba-cridhe,

17/06/2008 10:12:26
Fairfax

You can suspect what you like, we will never know - if that is your logical conclusion of what would have happened without king edward then you stick with it, the other equally logical conclusion would be that, as something that was significant over 700 years ago it would still be significant today whether it was (allegedly) nicked or not.

"what would be the Scottish reaction to English conservatives demanding the return of the Bayeux Tapestry from France"

There would be no "Scottish" reaction we are a nation of lots of different people who react differently to different things, not a homogenous mass of one opinion. Like you we probably wouldn't care too much, chances are, however, that we wouldnt bother to search out a story on a website about and use it as an excuse to try and belittle a whole nation.

Your biggest issue here is that you want to take the fact that lots of people feel strongly about a stone which you don't understand and turn it into some evidence of "Scottish" backwardness. Yes it may be irrational, but we are people after all and everyone is irrational in one way or another - its what makes life interesting.

That said - i'm off to enjoy mine, it has been good talking with you. All the best.


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Fairfax,

17/06/2008 10:49:29
alba-cridhe (319): "Your biggest issue here is that you want to take the fact that lots of people feel strongly about a stone which you don't understand"

That's absolutely correct: I neither understand nor approve of nationalist myth of this form. If Scotland wants symbols of its greatness, I'd hope it would turn to men like Smith, Napier, Maxwell and Kelvin, not to a dodgy stone.

"and turn it into some evidence of "Scottish" backwardness."

I don't want to turn it into evidence of Scottish backwardness: my fear is that its importance is a sign of a disturbing tendency in Scottish nationalism.
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Schot,

17/06/2008 10:50:45
Fairfax,
Avebury is mostly an important site because so many people regarded it as magical. There are more important archeological sites in England for a rational purist. If Avebury was to be bulldozed for rational reasons then you would presumably feel an emotional response.

My grandfather made my mother walk thirty miles to shake the hands of the students who liberated it in the 1950's. That wasn't an emotional response, it was a rational demonstration for independence.
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Fairfax,

17/06/2008 10:57:53
A Voice (318): "The decision to return the Stone of Destiny to Scotland 10 years ago caused consternation among the Church of England authorities, it has emerged"

I don't recall any consternation in the CofE, unless that's journalistic prose describing mild surprise. In any case, the CofE is almost the archetype of marginal opinion in England . . .

"The Stone’s hiding place had always been a secret known to a very few trusted people."

If you believe this, then I hope you avoid shopping on eBay! I'm always surprised at the longevity of such claims, but stupidity is a renewable resource.
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Fairfax,

17/06/2008 11:05:49
Schot (323): "Avebury is mostly an important site because so many people regarded it as magical."

Some people certainly do, given the silly books on sale there. However, its beauty and importance can be appreciated without believing in magic.

"If Avebury was to be bulldozed for rational reasons then you would presumably feel an emotional response."

Absolutely. However, that does not imply belief in its magical properties.

"That wasn't an emotional response, it was a rational demonstration for independence."

I think it's a bit of both, but I have no problems with this at all.
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voltaire's janny,

17/06/2008 15:47:01
Stone in Embra? Real (old) fake
Real Stone? Dunno, but black and polished is consensus of historical sources.
Significance - symbolism (not symbology you tards)
Why? Edward 1 wanted to subjugate Scottish crown and people. He died, a failure, cursing Scotland across the Solway, near Lanercost. His son and grandson had to be forced by the Bruce in battle, then in politics to relinquish their claim.

And the stone? As stated elsewhere the politicking included offers to return the lump of rude sandstone from under the English throne, but these were declined.

And now? Fake or not it should not lie 'neath Anglo-German erse and its significance even as a 700 year old confidence trick is important simply to emphasise that we are not an adjunct to south Britain but an ancient nation re-asserting our bartered sovereignty.
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Herne the Hunter,

All of Scotland 18/06/2008 10:10:46
Strangely Robbie the Pict had a lot to do with the stone of Scone being returned to Scotland. His tirade of letters helped. His letters to the Queen,the Chief Constable of Perthshire stating there had been a theft,
Letters to John Major offering to buy it back by a consortium in Skye and asking who was the owner of said object so that they could make the offer,all helped its speedy return. Also of course wee Mikey Forsyth thought it would bring the Scots back to the Tories,silly boy!. It was wee Mikey that called it the stone of Destiny .The duke of York and more importantly the Lord Lyon King of Arms called it's correct name the Stone of Scone when it was officially handed over. Of course David (windy) Breeze of Hysterical Scotland jumped on the band wagon and called it the stone of Destiny as well,he never did learn latin, the lad ,but he saw the tourist pounds coming into the castle.
Come on people it has been tested many times by eminent geologists and they all say its a piece of Perthshire sandstone that went down to London and did well.
Historical legend tells us that Fergus the first brought it from Tara to Dunstaffinage it had come via Galethea (Spain) from Egypt and it was a black basalt stone of pure silicon, so the legend goes. Not the stane wi two rings that were used for lifting it so that you could access the bottle chamber where the real stone was kept.... Its a 700 year old con job by accident,it was left on the altar by the monks who had spirited the real stone away. When the English troops arrived ,and hey Sir ponsonby-smyth this must be it. Penny dropped yet!
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Morrigan,

cardiff 18/06/2008 12:18:49
Interesting discussion.
I've heard before that it was fake so was surprised to see the shock horror story heading.
There are a few inauguration stones around. There is one at Kingston-Upon-Thames where Anglo-Saxon Kings were crowned. Tara in Ireland also has one although I believe there are others around the country.
Also there is one at Dunadd although this is a replica, the original is buried beneath it for protection.

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Ybot,

Lymington Hampshire 23/06/2008 20:09:46
Cannnot comment on the issue of whether the stone is a fake.

However, what I can say is that the stone, when stolen, was taken to my grandfather and kept in the outside shed for a while. To quote my mother it was in a hessian sack, very heavy! His daughter, Elizabeth Stewart was involved in this!

I have a nice momento of the occasion, from Elizabeth, left to me in her will, a solid silver replica chair complete with stone!

Any one ekse like to comment who can remember the incident?

Toby
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ArthurJ,

UK 23/06/2008 22:54:03
For those who want to know more, please search for "the truth about the stone of destiny" and discover both its true history and future.

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Schot,

24/06/2008 00:30:01
2 Fairfax:

Apologies if some of us still hold grudges for the national anthem implication of 'hammerer' in history. You've spoke less foolishness than my compadres have credited you with. Still, a representative republic ? Nein, danke. There is no democracy that isn't participatory.

Would you choose to adopt Scottish nationality if you were here on the day ?
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Bruce Harper,

California, USA 26/08/2008 19:00:52
I am wondering: Has anyone ever did a thorough search of the River Tay for the Stone of Scone? I've heard it may have been hidden there. Couldn't a team with sonar and other euioage search for it? Detect the meatal rings? I've never heard of anyone doing that as yet.
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Bruce Harper,

USa 26/08/2008 19:02:52
Oops! I just realized 2 mistakes: those words are supposed t be equipage ...and metal!

 

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