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Moderator says anti-English bigotry is 'like sectarianism'

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Published Date: 17 February 2008
ANTI-ENGLISH bigotry in Scotland is on a par with sectarianism and should not be tolerated as part of a "healthy society," according to the leader of the Kirk.
The Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland also claims in an Address for Lent on race relations in the UK that anti-English "banter" during sporting occasions could be harmful as it might lead to more sinister behaviour.

The Rt Rev Sheilagh Kesting warns that anti-English attitudes are stoking growing anti-Scottish resentment south of the Border. In perhaps the most controversial passage of her address, the Moderator urged people to think twice before making racially tinged remarks during sporting events.

"There is a thin line between banter and something which is more sinister," she said.

"In Scotland, we have got used to football as a context for perpetrating sectarianism so I don't think we can pass off lightly anti-English remarks which are made during matches. It is too easy to dismiss this as healthy rivalry. It is not.

"Caricatures that seek to diminish others that are barbed with prejudice and misinformation are not part of a healthy society. It is nobody's business to be disrespecting one another simply because they are English or Catholic, or whatever."

The Kirk leader made her comments after taking part in the Moderator's annual visit to London. She said: "The conversations I had with many of the people I met prompted reflection of whether the changed political situation will affect relations between our countries.

"It is time to reflect on attitudes: the things we accept, perhaps unthinkingly, that we use to strengthen our sense of identity; the caricatures that are underpinned by humour in thinly disguised prejudice. There is certainly a lot of anecdotal evidence that there is anti-Englishness abroad in Scotland today.

"The principle behind sectarianism is the same one that feeds anti-English feeling. It is the principle which seeks to narrow our identity to only one feature, like religion, race or nationality, and which makes that one feature the totality of how we see one another."

The Moderator was surprised by the attitudes of some people she encountered during her visit to London.

She said: "There are anti-Scottish sentiments being expressed in England. I think the political climate is making it more likely. What compounded the thing for me was in London people were asking me, 'What is Scotland up to?' There was a sense of bewilderment about what was happening in Scotland."

Kesting revealed she experienced anti-English sentiment during her childhood in Stornoway on the Isle of Lewis. She said: "I grew up in the north-west, in a part of Scotland where English people tended to settle and there was an antipathy towards them. They weren't altogether welcomed."

The Moderator's views were backed by anti-sectarianism campaigner and Glasgow minister, Reverend Elisabeth Spence.

The Sense Over Sectarianism project member said: "If you say something which is sectarian, people will spot it and challenge it because of the high-profile campaigns which have raised awareness that it will no longer be tolerated.

"People still laugh off anti-English remarks as just a bit of fun, but they are nothing of the sort. They are racist and offensive."

But David Ward, the English-born convener of the Glasgow branch of the Saltire Society, which aims to protect and promote Scottish culture, believed that anti-Englishness was actually in decline.

Speaking personally, he said: "I think that since devolution there has been a change whereby, if people have grievances, they tend to blame the Government and Parliament in Scotland.

"Before devolution, problems were usually blamed on London. Resentment against the Westminster Government was often mistakenly expressed as anti-Englishness, but that is not the case now."

Tam Ferry, a spokesman for the Association of Tartan Army Clubs, felt it would be a sad day if banter between Scots and their southern neighbours was lost.

He said: "In football, you have got to be able to laugh at yourself and others.

"There are some aspects of anti-Englishness which go too far and we would never condone that. But good-natured banter and mickey-taking are part and parcel of the atmosphere at games."

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "There is no place for discrimination or extremism of any kind in 21st-century Scotland and the Scottish Government is determined to do everything it can to stamp it out. A modern Scotland should be all about acceptance and celebrating diversity."

COMMENT: The union jocks

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 February 2008 10:41 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Anti-English bullying
 
1

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 00:02:55
Well over to you SNP
2

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 00:14:59
A bunch of spotty billy-no-mates with a complex over a battle fought 700 years ago.

Truly a force for us to be concerned about.

3

subrosa,

17/02/2008 00:17:13
So us Scots are to blame for the English being anti-Scottish? Where's she been for the past 100s of years? It's always gone on and always will although I agree with the Saltire Society spokesman that it's more relevant to poltics than personal nowadays.
4

Steve,

Bo'ness 17/02/2008 00:20:42
Of course anti-English sentiment exists, and it is wrong. No denying it, but it has existed for hundreds of years. Trying to lump it upon the shoulders of an open democratic party (with many English members!) is typical of desperation of the unionist establishment. Because lets face it, this story is more about hurting the SNP than any apparent upsurge in anti-English sentiment. And it's all getting a bit boring now.

If anyone actually has evidence of anti-English sentiment in the SNP, let's see it. Otherwise, give it a bloody rest.
5

Leerie the Lamplighter,

17/02/2008 00:21:12
The average football chanter couldn't spell "sectarianism".

Posters of the "Scandinavian folklore character" tradition seem to suffer a similar educational disadvantage.

With sincere apologies to the poster, Eve, who is sydlexic.
6

,

17/02/2008 00:21:59
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7

,

17/02/2008 00:26:16
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8

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 00:26:29
subrosa.

"So us Scots are to blame for the English being anti-Scottish?"

Most English people don't know, or care, where Scotland is.
9

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 00:27:48
4#

Steve

I know you never no for sure who is posting on these sites but check these boards out tomorrow night
10

,

17/02/2008 00:31:05
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11

Senga Jean,

Scotland 17/02/2008 00:31:10
Anti-Scottish sentiment is to be accepted because we are "up to something". Sorry but what the Scots are up to is the realisation that they are not a pale shadow of another nation and wish to enter the real world. As for incomers in the Highlands and Islands many second generation friends readily admit that their parents mistook the traditional slow and cautious responses of the natives for dullardly and thus enmity was created. When Scottish Independence comes along these issues will not have importance because we will all be pulling together for Scotland.
12

Carlo,

Fort William 17/02/2008 00:32:59
Anyone who claims to be an SNP supporter and spouts anti-English sentiments is not welcome!! in, around or near the party.
Take your small minded bigotry elsewhere.....all true aspirants to Scottish independence welcome the dialogue and the future trade of our british cousins.
13

,

17/02/2008 00:34:59
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14

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 00:40:25
#11

Less of your stock in trade soundbites it really is boring for us readers
15

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 00:42:21
14#

Jim Cruickshank (the cat) was a great goalkeeper but I think you are on the wrong thread
16

Sue Grabbitand-Runne,

17/02/2008 00:42:47
Warriston Row 33
17

,

17/02/2008 00:46:25
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18

,

17/02/2008 00:52:36
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19

,

17/02/2008 01:00:10
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20

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 17/02/2008 01:12:03
#8 Jim Rockford,17/02/2008 00:26:29
"Most English people don't know, or care, where Scotland is."
Spot on. Historically there has always been more anti- Scottish, Irish, Welsh, French, Ozzie etc., name calling and put-down jokes coming from Southern England, especially the capital that was ever reciprocated. Aggressive 'racism' or/and sectarianism usually is the practice of the great unwashed who don't vote anyway and would certainly not be welcomed in the SNP or most political parties.
21

Scunner,

Ellon 17/02/2008 01:15:44
Nothing better than seeing England get beat at Football/Rugby etc. Does this make me a bigot or racist? Not at all. I have many English friends. One of the things about the UK is that we love to see others fail.
22

Merouane,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 01:18:41
#24. Nothing wrong at all. It's certainly not unique to the UK either, most football fans across the world like to see their closest rivals fail.
23

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:25:41
Robbie,

Cheers, mate!

I think it's a good thing to be able to laugh at yourself. If you can't take it, don't dish it out!

Engerlanders are not good at taking it.

I am a Unionist, for my sins.

In the words of the New Seekers song - I'd like to teach the world to sing. . .


And the English to farking grow up to understand there is intelligent life North of Watford Gap.
24

,

17/02/2008 01:28:35
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25

Jimmy the Pie,

17/02/2008 01:30:50
Thought AM2 would have been right onto this thread, spouting his anti-SNP bile.

26

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 01:32:42
I take it the Rt Rev Kesting has not been to a footbal match recently.
27

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:32:52
#24,

My niece is a Hibby. I'm a Jambo. My niece doesn't care who beats the Big Team in Edinburgh.

I still love her.
28

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 01:33:24
Accusations from bigoted Britnats hardly needs any defence from SNP supporters. Being in favour of the rights of your ane kind to run their own affairs and make decisions is hardly anti english.

As you mouthpieces for Westminster would know the SNP has many members who have embraced our Nation, that originate from many other countries including England. That point is neither pro English or anti English because unlike Britnats we can accept others whatever their political,religous or colour of skin. Theres quite a few Britnats on these forums who have posted anti muslim crap on these sites.

As for the Church of Scotland, its time we faced the fact that it was them that supported the Scottish People in their fight to resist the traitors who were signing away Scotlands sovereignty, until they received assurances by the English Government that they were assured of the continued dominance of the Scottish church.

They were just one more part of the parcel of rogues who sold our rights to rule our own land.

Kosovo is about to be officially recognised by the UK Government after it declare UDI. That was never negotiated and agreed by the Serbians, therefore a precedent has been set where it will only take 40% of the Scottish People to vote for Independance before we can declare UDI. I would like to remind you Britnats the latest ICM poll states that is already achieved so we are closer than we have ever been before to our democratic goal. By the way a quick fact for you Britnats to choke on: The Scottish and English Parliaments were never ever disolved as was the requirement of the Act of Union. That basically means we can declare the real Scottish Parliament Open at anytime. Trust traitors to get it wrong again, hence that includes all britnats who post on these sites. That means we will soon have an exodus of perhaps as many as 100 Scots moving down South while quite a few Thousand will be returning HOME to their Mother Scotland. A fine trade I would say.
29

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:38:58
#30,

The tannoy announcements at any SPL game leave you in no doubt about what is unnacceptable behaviour.

Consequently, you can be indignant about the "patronising announcemnet", sit back and enjoy the game. Without being sworn at, spat on, stabbed, bottled . . . .

And your problem is?
30

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 01:40:49
32#

Is declaring UDI against the wishes of 60% not a bit undemocratic and leads to things like civil wars -
31

,

17/02/2008 01:41:55
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32

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 17/02/2008 01:42:03
#32 is surely an agent provocateur, or an absolute fruitcake,creepy!
33

,

17/02/2008 01:47:03
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34

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 01:48:00
#30

Dont think I have one Jim - football has moved on a bit, you say you are a Jambo, if you go to matches you will know things are not as bad as Rev Kesting perhaps thinks they are.
35

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:48:33
#35 is surely an absolute fruitcake.

The SNP does that to their devotees.

How much brainwashing can a person take?



(Lights blue touchpaper and retires a safe distance)
36

,

17/02/2008 01:51:59
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37

,

17/02/2008 01:53:23
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38

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:57:19
#38,

Scotland , even in the 70's, was never "hard" enough for Irish style sectarianism.

Most Rangers and Celtic fans don't know what the inside of a church/chapel looks like.

They just belong to a blue or green "tribe".
39

,

17/02/2008 02:00:27
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40

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 02:01:00
#39,

Please give us more of your wisdom?
41

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 02:02:45
Disputer,

Turn off the CAPS LOCK.

My eyes are bleeding!
42

,

17/02/2008 02:03:30
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43

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 02:08:07
The cloning trolls have surfaced at 39 and 47.

G'night, all.
44

brian mcc,

the arctic 17/02/2008 02:08:12
Want to hear some real anti-english phrases?

Come to Ireland
45

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 02:08:14
44#

We seem to be at cross purposes.
46

Insomniac,

17/02/2008 02:10:28
The comments from the SNP are worrying. That viewpoint is really silly.

I do agree that the problem is about racism and anti-English sentiment being handed down from parent to child.

Alex Salmond and the SNP do try to foster and encourage this sentiment of ill-will. Their snide comments are often thinly veiled racism.


47

baffies away,

17/02/2008 02:15:50
#53

Total and utter nonsense. Back up your rediculous statement with facts.
48

Insomniac,

17/02/2008 02:25:11
Oh come off it baffies away the SNP are very adept at stirring up anti-English feeling. A lot of their members openly hate the English.
49

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 02:27:03
57#
no
50

baffies away,

17/02/2008 02:27:04
#56

Back up your statement with facts, quotes, anything, can you do that? Are you capable of constructing an argument?
51

democrate,

central Scotland 17/02/2008 02:27:49
Get back to the thread please. The good lady asked "what is Scotland up to?" Whoops; have we Nationalists rocked somebody's boat? I do not believe that Scots naturally hate English or any other ethnic breed. The problem seems really to be that we Scots forgot to stay in our rightful lowly place and had the gall to question why our neighbours have the right to determine how we live, and felt that we might like the chance to make decisions for ourselves - they don't like it up them, do they?
52

Richardinho,

17/02/2008 02:32:26
I believe you should generally be nice to people. However I note this quote from the article;
'Kesting revealed she experienced anti-English sentiment during her childhood in Stornoway on the Isle of Lewis. She said: "I grew up in the north-west, in a part of Scotland where English people tended to settle and there was an antipathy towards them. They weren't altogether welcomed."'

Is that not understandable? If rich incomers are buying up housing, forcing prices up and locals out, is that not a good reason for feeling a sense of resentment?

People are constantly being told 'not to be racist', but how are they supposed to deal with what are often real feelings of being swamped and alienated by foreigners?
53

,

17/02/2008 02:44:12
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54

rawhide ,

Glasgow. not anti english 17/02/2008 02:46:25
53 Insomniac= idiot
If you ONLY had a brain?????
55

TommyKaye,

UK 17/02/2008 02:59:13
SO THIS WILL BE THE OPINION OF A LADY WHO:

BELIEVES A MAN FED 5000 PEOPLE WITH TWO MACKEREL AND TWO BOTTLES OF WATER.

BELIEVES THAT A MAN WALKED ACROSS THE SEA AS IT WAS HELD UP BY A GOD

THAT SOMEONE CREATED ALL LIVING THINGS BUT NEVER MENTIONS DINASOURS WHICH WERE AROUND A WEE BIT EARLIER.

YES SHE LIVES IN THE REAL WORLD DOESNT SHE!
56

,

17/02/2008 03:04:10
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57

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 17/02/2008 03:12:04
Hello All and Pict,

I must say that Elisabeth Spence shows a great deal of ignorance, when she used the term 'racist' in the context of anti-English sentiment.

Unless we're all back in the 19th century again, it is NOT possible for a white Scot to be 'racist' against a white Englisman/woman: both are white and so of the same 'race'.

She should have said that anti-English sentiments are ethnic bigotry, or Ethno-racism, but to say it's racist is plainly wrong and very silly.

On a more sour note, the Pict illustrates why a great many Canadians have been let down by their public education system: the anti-semitism which the Pict displays, is something one might here from a member of Hamas, Hezbollah, KKK, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, or the John Birch Society.

Such hatred of Jews is nothing new of course, but one would hope that given the overwhelming evidence of just who the real terrorists are; Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran's Revolutionary Guard, et al, Pict would have at least a desire to couch his/her anti-semitic and bigoted words in a more subtle phrasing.

Ah, I see my mistake!

More subtle phrasing would actually require and education, study, research, and a LOT of reading multi-syllabic words, in stack after stack of BOOKS!!!

Tsk, tsk, tsk, I should know better than to require such common sense, excellence, and forethought, from an anti-Semite.

Cheers from the Rockies
58

,

17/02/2008 03:24:12
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59

,

17/02/2008 03:26:41
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60

Roberta Burns,

17/02/2008 03:32:01
She said: "There are anti-Scottish sentiments being expressed in England. I think the political climate is making it more likely. What compounded the thing for me was in London people were asking me, 'What is Scotland up to?' There was a sense of bewilderment about what was happening in Scotland."

She should have asked the anti-Scottish englands 'whitsamatason urufeart?' Why did she feel she had to come back up here and spew forth about anti-englishness? Ye just canny help some folks.
61

Roberta Burns,

17/02/2008 03:34:09
Even Berwick would rather be Scottish. Take note, hen.
62

Robert Dunn,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 03:45:23
What about the AntiScotish bias of the Royal Mint.
Recent Examples:-
a) Advert for coins dated 1930s described as part of a series of Kings of England(not U.K.)
b) Stating , in advert for £5 Trafalgar coin, that "all British coins had been produced at the Royal Mint for 1,100 years." No mention of Scottish or Irish mints.
Does one wonder at AntiEnglish feelings aroused by such blatant bias?
63

Roberta Burns,

17/02/2008 03:47:20
...then there's the BBC and Londoners
64

,

17/02/2008 03:50:59
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65

Yane,

17/02/2008 03:51:57
#64 Jings - was it mackeral?
66

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 03:52:58
O Fhlu\ir na h-Albann,
cuin a chi\ sinn
an seo\rsa laoich
a sheas gu ba\s 'son
am bileag feo\ir is fraoich,
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaidh
air chaochladh smaoin?
Na cnuic tha lomnochd
's tha duilleach Foghair
mar bhrat air la\r,
am fearann caillte
dan tug na seo\id ud gra\dh,
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaigh
air chaochladh smaoin.
Tha 'n eachdraidh du\inte
ach air di\ochuimhne
chan fheum i bhith,
is faodaidh sinn e\irigh
gu bhith nar Ri\oghachd a-ri\s
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaidh
air chaochladh smaoin.
67

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 03:53:48
77 - Naw - kippers
68

Yane,

17/02/2008 03:53:53
#64 Jings - was it mackeral?
69

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:03:39
'Kesting revealed she experienced anti-English sentiment during her childhood in Stornoway on the Isle of Lewis. She said: "I grew up in the north-west, in a part of Scotland where English people tended to settle and there was an antipathy towards them. They weren't altogether welcomed."'

She'll be pleased to know that attitudes have not changed, in the slightest; nor will they as long as Scotland is denied its independence and is continually treated as a colony.
70

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:03:48
Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled
Scots, wham Bruce has aften led
Welcome to your gory bed
Or to victory!
Now's the day an' now's the hour
See the front of battle lour
See approach proud Edward's pow'r
Chains and slavery!
Wha would be a traitor knave?
Wha would fill a coward's grave?
Wha sae base as be a slave?
Let him turn and flee!
Wha for Scotland's king an' law
Freedom's sword would strongly draw
Freeman stand and freeman fa'
Let him on wi' me!

By oppression's woes and pains
By your sons in servile chains
We will drain our dearest veins
But they shall be free.
Lay the proud userpers low!
Tyrants fall in ev'ry foe
Liberty's in every blow
Let us do or dee!
71

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:16:25

66 - Neanderthal 75 - just wait a minute there chum. The Pict is a f**king idiot.

Every nation has their fair share.

And please don't blame it on our educational system.

For all we know the f**king idiot could hail from the US or Scotland.

Let us take comfort in believing that his parentage is unknown and he is posting from a well-guarded lunatic asylum.

Fair enough?
72

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 04:17:49
This would be the same Rt Rev Kesting who supported the Archfruitcake of Canterbury's "inevitability of Sharia law in this country"? Shoot-themselves-in-the-foot Religionistas ... don't ya just love them?

#21 Non Person
Neatly put!
73

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:18:16

78 - An Beal Bacht - how esoteric. No what would the point have been?
74

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:18:20
This was how I broke the best
Indifference, overblown with confidence and ignorance
It all made sense
And then I watched them take the test
I believe it’s better to inflict than to attempt relief
You ask me what you need
Hate is all you need

Hate is all around find it in your heart in every waking sound
On your way to school, work or church you’ll find that it’s the only rule
Build a different world, hate will help you find what you’ve been looking for
Hate is everywhere, inside your mother’s heart and you will find it there
You ask me what you need hate is all you need


This was how I won the west
Charity, a joke that friendly cities think that we believe
Or so it seems
We kicked and punched and stabbed to death
And everyone applauded my fine actions I was overcome
You ask me what I’ve seen
Hate is all I’ve seen

Hate is in the air
Come on people feel it like you just don’t care
Everlasting hate feel it in the people where it’s warm and great
Come on hate yourself everyone here does so just enjoy yourself
Hate is everywhere, look inside your heart and you will find it there
You ask me what I mean
Hate is all I mean
75

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:20:10
86 - Speak up -Ah cannae hear ye!
76

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:21:22


85 - Fanling - visit these boards more often and you will see that there is very little virtue.

Speaking of virtue - how is the legal system in China these days?
77

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:21:39
Come charge up your glasses and lets drink a toast,
To the bold Scottish heroes and the proud Scottish host,
To the battles we've won and the few that we've lost
Here's a health tae the back o' Schiehallion.

Chorus :
Schiehallion, Schiehallion, I hear your voice calling,
Across the Great Glen to the coast of Argyll.
The Lowlands, The Highlands, The Borders, The Islands,
I'll drink tae the back o' Schiehallion.

The bluebell of Scotland is hanging her head,
And the lion once rampant is lying like dead.
They grieve for their country whose courage has fled
Far awa' tae the back o' Schiehallion.

God speed the day when the Scots shall awake,
The fetters of England to crack and to break.
And stand by that freedom their birthright to take
Here's a health tae the back o' Schiehallion
78

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:30:11

90 - GTF!

Pls no more tartan twilight twitter!

If Scotland keeps looking to her past then she will stay on a meandering and confused course.

Look to the future. Be confident. The past is just full of division, hatred and defeat.
79

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 04:30:43
#89 Dunnie, Canada
"Speaking of virtue - how is the legal system in China these days"

The first part of your sentence makes as little sense to the content of my post #85 as the nonsense of the second part. Looking for a spurious argument unrelated to the topic of this page is deliberately provocative and pointless. Grow up.
80

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:35:21
90 - Guga writes a guid yin -Whahae!!!
81

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:37:23
Dunnie's in the dunnie!
82

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:38:55
Dunnie belongs in the dunny.
83

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:40:21
HISTORY? WHO NEEDS HISTORY?
84

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:40:32
92 - LOL!

First - if you were a regular visitor to these boards you would understand the meaning of the first sentence of my posting.

Secondly, you avoided my question - which I didn't find immature - which was posed since you saw fit to pass comment on both religious and legal matters of a foreign country.

I will not be so offensive as to say "Grow Up". Rather, I would say: Wake Up".
85

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 17/02/2008 04:41:26
since thsat beatch became an apologist for Islam as far as I am concerned she is not worth listening to.
86

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:41:46
94 and 95 - LOL!
87

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:48:08
To Scotland's ancient realm,
Proud Edward's armies came;
To sap our freedom and overwhelm
Our martial forces in shame.
"It shall not be" brave Wallace cried!
"It shall not be" his chiefs relied!
By the name our fathers gave her,
Our steel shall drink the crimson stream,
We'll all her dearest right redeem,
Our own broadswords shall save her.
With hopes of triumph flush'd,
The squadrons hurried o'er
Thy Bridge Kildean, and heaving rush'd
Like wild waves to the shore.
"They come, they come" was the gallant cry,
"They come, they come" was the loud reply.
O strength thou gracious giver,
By love and freedoms stainless faith,
We'll dare the darkest night of death,
We'll drive them back forever.

All o'er the waving broom,
In chivalry and grace,
Shone England's radiant spear and plume
By Stirling's rocky base.
And stretching far beneath the view,
Proud Cressingham, thy banners flew.
When like a torrent rushing,
O God! from right and left the flame,
Of Scottish swords like lightning came,
Great Edward's legions crushing.

High praise, ye gallant band,
Who in the face of day,
With daring hearts and fearless hands
Have cast your chains away.
The foemen fell on ev'ry side,
In crimson hues the Forth was dyed.
Bedew'd with blood the heather,
While cries triumphant shook the air,
Thus shall we do, shall we dare,
Wherever Scotsmen gather.
88

,

17/02/2008 04:48:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
89

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:48:49

95 - Guga

"The bluebell of Scotland is hanging her head,
And the lion once rampant is lying like dead."

Come now, Guga ( or is that gagga?) you must admit that such doggerel would not invite praise?
90

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:53:22
101 - WELL SAID!
91

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:54:40


100 - stop it! It's worse than chinese water torture. Uh, sorry, that was race specific. It's worse than re-runs of Andy Stewart.

" Jacobites can recite so well.

Of stirring words and victories so nearly had,

Yet they they would be more glad,

Not to have heard of loyal Clan Campbell".
92

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 17/02/2008 04:56:03
Hello Dunnie,

I'll subscribe to your notation on that fact: I was presumptive in my assumption.

Did you catch those acts by Disputer and TheWitness?

Talk about clueless: they're right up with there with Ahmadinejad's mindset about the Holocaust!!

No doubt they've got signed copies of Mein Kampf tucked under their beddies.

I've noted that anarchists, Marxists, Social Progressives, the Politically Correct, Great Russian Nationalists, and other similar loons, tend to live in fantasy worlds, are usually worked up to the point of bursting blood vessels, and generally can't hold a rational debate based on facts, empirical evidence, and logic, to save their lives!

Oh well, sharks, worms, Grizz, and the buzzards, still have to eat.

Cheers from the Rockies
93

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:57:30
#101 Couldn't agree more.
94

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:58:45


105 - Roger that.
95

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:59:21
Who let the POPINJAYS onto this thread?
96

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:59:30
#102 In the Dunny.

Shows what you know. You obviously don't know whaere it came from.
97

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 05:05:29
#97 Dunnie

Your moniker is as new to me as mine clearly is to you. I stumbled across these forums two years ago and visit and revisit when time allows, so you can put that to bed. It is enough to say that I have neither time nor inclination for your tit-for-tat shoolboy antics.

You allege that I "saw fit to pass comment on both religious and legal matters of a foreign country." Um, which foreign country would that be then? In case it had escaped your eagle eye this topic is in relation to the statement of a religious representative. I therefore certainly "see fit to comment", as other posters legitimately do, without fear of intimidation from you or like minds.

Off for lunch and decent stimulating conversation.
98

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:06:43

101 - Virginian - let me guess: is your favourite television show Ernest Angeley re-runs?

By the way, do you burn crosses and run around in a bed sheet with a pointy hat?

I don't have a clue who this woman is but to be quoting scripture to deny women an equal place in today's society - religion aside - is well, f**king stupid.

Virginian, sleep cozy next to your warm gun, NASCAR Weekly - and, oh, make sure the wife doesn't find the copy of Playboy in the outhouse.
99

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:07:58
tinyurl.com/5aql3

1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created (1 Timothy 2:13) and the way in which sin entered the world (2 Timothy 2:14).

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership – in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with how God has gifted them.

100

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:09:48

Hope you are not in China teaching English.


This is a forum.


The plural of forum is fora.
101

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:13:29

109 - who cares. It is still pathetic prose - and I don't mean it terms of its basic message, but rather its syrupy and romantic tone.

102

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:19:05
Is the plural for dunnie dunce or dense?
103

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:21:41
O Canada! Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North, strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free !
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

Now that is syrupy!
104

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 05:22:29
#113 Lavvieman
"Forums" is the entirely acceptable modern spelling. "Fora" is mere Latin pedantry. Look it up in a real dictionary after your constipation eases up.
105

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:22:48
Another Version:

O Canada, our heritage, our love
Thy worth we praise all other lands above.
From sea to see throughout their length
From Pole to borderland,
At Britain's side, whate'er betide
Unflinchingly we'll stand
With hearts we sing, "God save the King",
Guide then one Empire wide, do we implore,
And prosper Canada from shore to shore.
106

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:23:13
And Another:

O Canada! in praise of thee we sing;
From echoing hills our anthems proudly ring.
With fertile plains and mountains grand
With lakes and rivers clear,
Eternal beauty, thos dost stand
Throughout the changing year.
Lord God of Hosts! We now implore
Bless our dear land this day and evermore,
Bless our dear land this day and evermore.
107

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:24:30
Aye - these Canadians know how tae write a national anthem dae they no?
108

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:28:48

115 -

That is rather rich coming from someone who states support of the Virginian in your 103 posting.

Overall, you are either a troll or a rather pathetic judge of prose and in terms of modern society - a dangerous f**king lunatic.


Now, pls let the staff adjust your restraints so that they are more comfrotable. Good night.
109

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:36:49


Ah, yes, just as I thought. You act by convenience and are guided by revisionism.

Either way - a lack of substance or character.

Forums? Stuff and nonsense.

You excuse ignorance through convention.

110

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:37:45
Dunnie - if you had been more persuasive and less insulting to other posters - perhaps I would have supported you. You struck out on both counts. So you and your buddy the Neanderthal should (to use your expression) GTF!
111

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:38:20

120 - Yes we do. And we take pride in noting that it is not directed at a particualr race or nation- unlike yours.
112

donald,

glasgow 17/02/2008 05:39:15
Another colonial native missionary telling the natives to love their masters.

Try watching how Ingurland fans are received abroad.

With all the nonsense bestowed on Scotland from Westminster and their gombeens it is a credit to the Scottish people that anti Englishness is not more rife and more serious.

Will this Moderator also be kissing the Queen's ring, as a previous Moderator did after the Coronation?
113

David the Expat,

Perth 17/02/2008 05:41:45
During the last world cup i do remember a 7 year old boy being assaulted by a scottish adult for wearing an engalnd soccer top , who in turn was not even an English Boy but was in fact a New Zealand Infant on Holiday in the northern hemisphere with hes Kiwi Father...says it all about what going on up ur end, the Rev Kesting is spot on.
Who cares anyway your probably going to be outbread by Pakistani's or Polish...something the English Knights failed to do many eons back.
Anglo Saxon Crap who needs it ?
114

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:41:50

Not so fast my purple prose poster.

You are theone whostated your total support for the Virginian's posting which I submit is a total insult and tonight's winner for the SUPERSIZED GTF!!

Cheers and good night.
115

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:43:01
My favourite Englishmen:
(well - some of them)

John Cleese
David Gilmour
David Lean

116

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:44:32

127 directed at 123.
117

Dunnie,

17/02/2008 05:46:23
*Please enter your comment*
118

Graeme,

Guangzhou 17/02/2008 05:47:04
# 82, Gagga, Sadly this screaming racism/chip on shoulder is spread by little bearded idiots such as you.

Inward looking as well as inbred. No better than a redneck. You give us all a bad name. You bring shame on our country.


119

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:51:02
My favourite English women:
(as before - some of them)

Kate Bush
Emily Watson (especially in "Breaking the Waves")
Helen Dunmore
120

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:54:16
131 - Graham - you are another one who only has insults to contribute. Why don't you address the topic of the thread. Do you have anything worthwhile to share?
121

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:56:41
Ah love the English - it's the cringin wee Scots Ah despise.
122

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 06:01:07
FFS, are you blind man?

Look to your own postings as to their relevance.
And before you ask the same of me - mine were in response.

BTW - I thought Graham's contribution was worthwhile.
123

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 06:07:24
Aye - it's at night the wee creepy crawlies come oot. But Ah umnae bothered - Ah pish oan thum fae a great hight.
124

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 06:09:40
Here's to the American eagle
That bird of great courage and wit
He eats all day in the USA
And flies to Canada to sh!t!
125

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 17/02/2008 06:09:49
Favourite things about England and the English.
The countryside
The weather
Steam fairs
Tinker's Bubble
William Blake
John Lennon
Red brick terraces
The Anglo Saxon Chronicles
Dungeness "home to a unique variety of wildlife and more than 600 different types of plants – about one third of all plants found throughout the UK. Also Dungeness is one of the best places in Britain to find rare species of moths, butterflies, bees, beetles and spiders." You have got to love that!!

A Favourite Englishwoman
Helen Willets - who would have thought watching the weather forecast would be such fun.

Bad things about the English
Spies and Agent Provocateurs - give it up guys, India is lost. Get a proper job.
Private Keep Out signs and not being able to go for a walk

126

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 06:12:35
Aye - did ye know that Rene Leveque came tae Scotland in the late sixties tae learn how tae organize a nationalist movement?
127

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 06:13:35
138 - Great post man!
128

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 06:25:57
Stupit lassie.
129

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 06:26:42
Sheilagh Kesting!
130

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 06:31:25
At his home near Cupar in Fife, Tom Gilbey is typical. "I have never been insulted by a Scotsman in my life," he declares. It is 20 years since he came to Scotland, having married a Scot. Their two children now feel "half-Scottish and half-English" he says. "It is all just banter and that is part and parcel of life. It has been going on for a thousand years and it isn't going to change. It goes on in every part of the United Kingdom. That's just the way we are."
131

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 06:42:40

137 - when will you give it up?


Accept it. You are no judge of prose.

BTW - do you not also see in the rather sneering, condescending and patronising post that you made, that the following could be changed?

Here's to the British eagle
That bird of great courage and wit
He eats all day in Albion
And flies to Scotia to sh!t

Say it ain't so my brave, posting Braveheart!
132

Alan Reid,

NZ 17/02/2008 06:45:31
http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=70&Itemid=1
133

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 06:46:48

ALna - any personal comment you like to add?
134

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 17/02/2008 06:50:50
We the SCOTTISH people have had to put up with english racism for 300 years, we are not racists, the english are. SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE will get rid of pathetic unionist comments from the so called Scottish Church. The people will decide and not some idiot in a uniform!!!!
135

Dee Till Eh deh,

Hong Kong 17/02/2008 06:51:41
This really is a complex matter. I recently attempted to do a piece of cold-call business with a company's office in London (I am originally from Dundee and have a Scottish accent). Before I could even tell the woman who answered the phone what the nature of my call was, she said "you need the Glasgow office'' and hung up. This happened twice in quick succession. I was furious. Is this racism or just plain rudeness? maybe she got out the wrong side of the bed or just had a blow up with her boss, I dunno. One thing I do know is that Chinese racism towards anyone who isn't Chinese is rife. It would blow the Moderators socks off compared to anything she'll see or hear in Scotland. But then, historical Caucasian racism towards the Chinese is an historical fact. Unravelling all of this is a huge task. I fear the Moderator is out of her depth.
136

Encephalon,

17/02/2008 06:56:31
"The Rt Rev Sheilagh Kesting warns that anti-English attitudes are stoking growing anti-Scottish resentment south of the Border"


That statement in trying to put all the blame on Scots is inherrently "racist" and rather misguided. The English-ironivally for a bastardised people- have more racist terms for other nations and cultures than any other on the planet-eg Irish are thick, sweaties are mean, blacks lazy and dumb etc etc etc

Has this woman ever lived down south-there is plenty of anti-Scottish sentiment-just have a cursory glance at the Telegraph. Most of this is completely racist and would not be permitted if it was aimed at "blacks" or Pakistanis etc.

Anyway it is all academic as the English (and Scots) will be eradicated in about two generations by the millions of immigrants in our midst and what is left is subsumed in the US of Europe.
137

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 06:57:31
It's the cosmopolites that we have to guard against. Their condescending manner and their confusion of sophistry with sophistication may seem attractive to the young in their formative years. But they have little to say on any subject and yet claim the right to criticize others for speaking honestly. There is a Scots word that perfectly defines them - Nyaffs.
138

Tony E,

VIRGINIA BEACH 17/02/2008 07:01:22
#111 No doubt #101 voted for Mr Huckabee last week in the hope that God will do the righteous thing and remove McCain in the near future
139

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:04:45
145Alan Reid, NZ 17/02/2008 06:45:31:

Great link!
140

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:08:25
This could have been a good thread but lacked support for the premise.
141

Richardinho,

17/02/2008 07:13:31
Except where does she mention the SNP in that statement?
One thing worse than racism, it's people who hijack the issue for political ends.
142

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:13:43
Ah - up jumps our pretendy anarchist. Check the facts Jack - the SNP have MSP's who are English.
143

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:17:14
155 - Well said!
144

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 17/02/2008 07:18:32
Never mind what the Kirk (who they?) thinks

When we have the Sunday Post putting 'serious' newspapers to shame. heh!

"EMBATTLED Labour leader Wendy Alexander is in more trouble after she laid a motion praising a shopping centre that gave her donations of £1600."

http://www.dcthomson.co.uk/MAGS/POST/news1.htm

oh happy days.
145

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:21:00
Aye - while they have the "moderator" insulting us - they ignore the sleaze in our midst.
146

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:23:05
Ane wee lassie tae rile us up while anither to riffles oor poakits.

147

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:25:18
It's all too distasteful, I fear. I shall leave this thread now - perhaps.
148

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 07:30:16
#148 Dee Till Eh deh,Hong Kong

What you got on your cold call to London was probably the same as most cold-callers get from many of the rest of us. Call it rudeness if you like, but I personally dislike having my private space invaded by sellers of kitchens and double-glazing, or anything else come to that.

You go on to say "... Chinese racism towards anyone who isn't Chinese is rife. It would blow the Moderators socks off compared to anything she'll see or hear in Scotland."

That's way over the top. You really ought to get out more, or at least learn a smidgen of Cantonese. I would not entirely disagree with the latter part: "... historical Caucasian racism (I would, however, substitute 'attitude' for 'racism') towards the Chinese
is an historical fact."

I have lived and worked in Hong Kong and mainland China on and off over the past six years and have known nothing but kindness and genuine good humour. Chinese humour is laden with banter and puns, and I think you might have mistaken that for what it is you appear so wrongly to describe. I interact with Chinese people all day and every day and they are a joy to work and socialise with.

All this talk of racism is a red herring. It has become a useful stick with which to beat people into submission to a PC world most of the rest of us don't want. It is the prime mover for every disaffected group. Anti-English "bigotry" or "sectarianism" as described by this Moderator woman is just so much claptrap.

149

Pocket Dictionary,

17/02/2008 07:36:38
Why doesn't the moderator challenge the management of the Talk 107 radio station Talk 107 and the presenter Scottie McCLue for broadcasting sectarianism?
McClue lets callers finish their calls with God save the Queen and No Surrender!
He allows them to air views about not letting a Catholic be a spouse of a future monarch or a Catholic even be a UK monarch.
Moderator, if you are going to tackle sectarianism. TAckle it all levels and in all mediums.
150

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:36:45
162Fanling, China 17/02/2008 07:30:16 writes:

"All this talk of racism is a red herring. It has become a useful stick with which to beat people into submission to a PC world most of the rest of us don't want. It is the prime mover for every disaffected group. Anti-English "bigotry" or "sectarianism" as described by this Moderator woman is just so much claptrap."

Perfectly said.
151

james 1st,

hamilton 17/02/2008 07:37:48
one must assume that this woman is trying to take the pressure off the archbishop of canterbury after his comment that the uk will have to accept some aspects of sharia law,. now we have a woman who leads another church accusing the scots of being racist towards the english and being responsible for anti scottish feeling amongst the english.
the said

english people have been racist to the scots for over
300 years

this person would be better employed devoting her time to helping scots citizens instead of trying to put them down either that or she should apply for a position in the anglican church
152

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:43:02
65 - james 1st, hamilton 17/02/2008 07:37:48 writes:

"... she should apply for a position in the anglican church."

Aye - they're very tolerant and inclusive I hear. That's why their "Anglican Communion" looks ready to fall apart.
153

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 08:00:55
#164 An Beal Bacht

Cheers for that. (I doubt if the Dunnie chiel would agree though. See how fast the @rse falls out of his breeks when he loses the plot!)
154

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:06:41
Speaking of Dunnie the Bogman Fanling observes:


"See how fast the @rse falls out of his breeks when he loses the plot!"

LOL
155

inoui,

Bangkok 17/02/2008 08:10:33
Ever lived in England?
Always the 1st to whinge yet are more guilty than any, even out here!
156

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:14:32
This thread may get deep sixed - it's been far too civil.
157

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:15:34
Another great Englishman - Harry Flashman.
158

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:17:41
Even when we're independent, Ah'll still read Shakespeare - the greatest playwright who ever lifted a pen.
159

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 08:18:43
#120 An Beal Bacht.

These Canadian anthems you quoted are not so much syrupy as liable to make you boak down a dunnie.

#131 Gruamach.

If the Chinese ever manage to cure you, and let you out, come on over here and tell me to my face why you are such an amadan.
160

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:18:46
Ah'm aff - slainte!
161

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:20:11
Aye Guga - they wulnae even staun up fur it onymair.
162

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 08:29:25
Many Scottish folk think of Scotland as a poor relation to England! The English dont think of Scotland like that, its the Scots who see themselves as the lesser part of the union, thus its the Scots who harbour the most amount of resentment.
When Scotland are playing in a qualifier on the same day as Germany, the English turn their attention to the Germans, their interest in Scotland is non existant! When England and Germany are playing on the same day, the Scots turn their attention to England in the hope that they loose! The cheer for an English defeat in louder than the one you will hear or a Scottish victory, such is the dislike for England!
The rest of the world know how much Scotland hate England, we are famous for it!
The SNP have hi-jacked the already existing anti English sentiment and turned it into a political point scoring tactic.
The English en masse have never resented Scotland, their petty resentment is reserved for the Germans, The French and the Argentinians, not Scotland!!
We are not on their hate radar, but they sure as hell are on ours!
I support Scotland, which is why I dont mind England winning!
163

Dee Till Eh deh,

Hong Kong 17/02/2008 08:32:20
#162 Fanling. Thanks for your comments. Just a few clarifications.

1. I speak Cantonese, not fluently but well enough to communicate.
2. I was not selling kitchens, windows etc..but dealing with a business well used to unsolicited calls. Infact, the type of business which thrives on them and dies without them.
3. I have lived and worked in HK for 16 years, and am well aware of the Chinese peoples' capacity for friendship and loyalty. This does not exclude them - like us - of having racist attitudes.
4. You cannot deny that the Cantonese names for Indians, Pakistanis and Blacks are more than tinged with negativity. And you cannot deny that in HK, Indians are hugely discriminated against in the job and property markets.

Here's to a balanced debate.

Cheers.
164

Phil C,

17/02/2008 08:34:10
This is a busy little thread!

The Moderator like, most of her wee sect, is a raving unionist. In the vast majority of Scots, any anti-English feeling is exactly what she says it might be, just banter. Nothing more nothing less.

The nastier stuff is to be found in football grounds, and doesn't usually involve England. That's where we need to address the problem.
165

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:35:03
Media 1 - almost but not quite.

"The SNP have hi-jacked the already existing anti English sentiment and turned it into a political point scoring tactic."

You really should read the thread through.
166

WKKB,

17/02/2008 08:38:12
...and so on... and so on... and so one... Does anyone think anything will really change?
167

Nikostratos,

17/02/2008 08:40:11
Nationalists(snp) hate the scottish Unionists and the English
whats new ?
168

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 17/02/2008 08:41:03
Back in the 1990s I met a black woman who was a manager at Edinburgh Council -very nice woman, highly educated, friendly - and English. I asked her what it was like living in Edinburgh - as one of the few3 black people around. She said that it was alright for her but her two sons were having a hard time at school; they got beaten or had tod efend themselves almost every day. "Because they are black?" _ I asked. She laughed loudly and said " No its not because they are black - its because they have English accents". I asked her did she complain to the school. "No she said - if they can't survive primary school on their own, they wont survive in the big world"

The elite which has run Scotland for hundreds of years - which controlled the law, education, the press, the media - has pursued a 'divide and rule' strategy for ever. Convince ordinary folk to hate their neighbours -and that all Scotland's ills are their fault - and we can continue ruling with our noses in the trough. It is so blatant and so crude you couldn't make it up. And it works.
169

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:42:02
177 - Dee Till Eh deh, Hong Kong 17/02/2008 08:32:20 writes:

"You cannot deny that the Cantonese names for Indians, Pakistanis and Blacks are more than tinged with negativity."

Aye - peoples have identities, cultures, and attitudes, and the orient has yet to be PC'd and multiculturalized. How does one become a Japanese citizen?
170

Phil C,

17/02/2008 08:42:22
#179 Media is one of yon fitba' union jackers fae Embra! Do you expect him to read anything? He just Believes!
171

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:44:07
182 - Tweedmouth, Coldstream:

Good post.
172

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:46:20
181 - Nikostratos, 17/02/2008 08:40:11;

You and Media 1 - ach!
173

TerryH,

England 17/02/2008 08:50:13
"The English-ironivally for a bastardised people..."

Say no more
174

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:52:39
186 - Rulesbutnotrulers, Federation, not separation 17/02/2008 08:44:29:

Wee fakie anarchist - nothin tae say but evidences his coprophilia.
175

Phil C,

17/02/2008 08:55:04
#186 Rules

Why wait? Come in and change things. We need everyone to unite. With independence will go the Scottish 'chip on the shoulder' which makes us need to exert our identity with the English and anyone else who's listeneing or watching.

A trivial issue like perceived anti-Englishness amongst a minority of SNP supporters, should never be a reason for not trying to change things for the better. You are letting yourself and your country down if you hide behind that one.
176

yockel,

17/02/2008 09:01:29
Yawn.

"healthy society?" ah there's the discontinuity in the logic. Isn't the lead story today - one in ten teenagers are on cocaine?
177

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 09:01:54
190 - Phil C, 17/02/2008 08:55:04:

He's aw yours Phil. Slainte!
178

Nikostratos,

17/02/2008 09:03:00
#187 An Beal Bacht

The two people i knew who hated the English the most......................was......................................
me mam and dad.............


An Beal Bacht............suck on that

179

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 09:05:34
Any Scot who has ever lived or worked in England for any length of time will tell you that anti-'Jock' prejudice is part of the English psyche, and is far more prevalent then any alleged anti-English feeling
in Scotland!

Now, IF the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland had stated the obvious:

In the 21st Century, anti-Irish bigotry is still a serious problem and far more endemic in Scottish society than any actual or perceived anti-Englishness, especially in West,Central Scotland, then she would have had a valid argument.

180

Nikostratos,

17/02/2008 09:10:33
this thread is not going to last, To much 'sectarianism' rearing it's ugly head........from the snp nats
181

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 09:10:51
193 - Nikostratos, 17/02/2008 09:03:00:

I am sincerely sorry your parents were bigots - mine weren't.
182

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17/02/2008 09:12:00
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183

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 09:13:24
To all my English friends - live long and prosper.
184

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 09:14:12
Meths - cut it out!
185

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17/02/2008 09:14:50
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186

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 09:18:26
Baistard goat the 200 - shyte!
187

,

17/02/2008 09:19:36
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188

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 09:21:58
202 - WeeBerty, Inverclyde 17/02/2008 09:19:36:

Spoken from the heart.
189

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 09:23:31
Ah'm aff ae here for real. Slainte!
190

Gothic Rose,

17/02/2008 09:24:12
Tim=Dunnie. Dunnie=Tim.
191

Kenny A,

17/02/2008 09:24:13
From experience the English are more anti everyone, Scots, Irish, Black, Muslim, Jew etc than any part of Scotland.

In return the English are not overly well regarded in many parts of the world while the Scots are generaly liked.

Sad thing is it is a fairly small minority that is guilty for causing this.

I know a German who has been in Scotland for many years and due to how he was treated in England he detests them. No problam in Scotland however.

Being anti anyone on grounds of nationality, race or religion is just plain stupid I think.

The moderator should have been a bit more level with her comments.
192

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 09:25:46
#177 Dee Till Eh deh,Hong Kong

Points taken, thanks. You have the advantage on me in having been here/there much longer than I have. My point about cold calls stands although I appreciate your position regarding your business.

You mention "racist attitudes" (of the Chinese). This is an interesting topic, and while I'd like to enlarge on it, I have work to catch up with now. I dislike the catch-all term "racism" and all its derivatives. It has been hijacked by the few to the detriment of the many in the West.

This attitude is much less prevalent in mainland China than in HK. The "racist" terminology you describe in HK is little different to what the English - and fellow Scots - routinely use. Some of it comes under the banner of banter and some does not. Some of it is deeply offensive and some is just a bloody irritant. We either learn to live with this stuff or fester in it. The little anecdote from #182, Tweedmouth, illustrates that point nicely, I think.

As far as Indians being "hugely discriminated against ... ", I can't comment with any authority on that aspect. (Is that why they pester Europeans at the foot of Nathan Road and the Star Ferry with their "make a suit for you" routine?!) Seriously, HK, like mainland China is pretty well monocultural, so Indians, like any other foreign nationals make and take their own chances. Nobody forced them to be there.

Cheers from ower the border in Shenzhen.

193

Gothic Rose,

17/02/2008 09:26:18
202#Wee Berty,Please elaborate, on your last paragraph.
194

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17/02/2008 09:30:20
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195

Mikey,

17/02/2008 09:32:08
Isn't it strange how the majority of unionists (and morons) on this thread waffle on about anti English sentiment fostered by the SNP but fail to produce one iota of evidence?

Are we to take it that there IS no evidence and that they're just talking through their collective fundaments as usual?

I have occasionally come across a drunk idiot who blames the English for everything, but that's what they are, drunk idiots! There are however, a group of posters on this board who practice a sort of reverse racism and accuse their fellow Scots of causing all the problems that affect Westmonster. These are the people we should be educating. The anti English drunks are beyond redemption. It's the anti Scottish Scots who lie and try to cheat their own countrymen that we should be worried about!
196

gus1940,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 09:34:05
If anti-English bigotry in Scotland is sectarian what does that make anti-Scottish bigotry in England.

England doesn't need any lessons in xenophobia - just look at all the anti-Welsh, anti-Irish, anti-French, anti-German and anti-anybody-foreign in the press and on television.
197

Thomas1,

escaping 17/02/2008 09:36:11
If your fat,ugly,"briliiant white"sick,drunk,drugged-up,smoke like a lum,catholic,protestant,in a wee lodge,think your the big man when your not,buy fake goods,go to the fitba and throw banannas with a big purple face foamin at the mooth,then your going to be accepted as normal.
198

Dee Till Eh deh,

Hong Kong 17/02/2008 09:37:25
#207 Fanling

Cheers...and a belated Kung Hei Fat Choy!!
199

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17/02/2008 09:44:50
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17/02/2008 09:45:51
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201

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17/02/2008 09:48:44
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17/02/2008 09:49:54
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203

walter,

17/02/2008 09:53:03
It is not the actual words that are used in the sentence, it is the disguised meaning of the words that are used.
It is the old adage of saying one thing but meaning another.
Politicians are very adapt at this and due to the fact that the moderators will remove posts of commenter's on here who say exactly what they mean those posting have become the same.
204

Fanling,

17/02/2008 09:55:13
#214 Dee Till Eh deh

Reciprocated. Eh'll drink to that - again!
205

JimC,

Kilmarnock 17/02/2008 09:55:17
She said: "There are anti-Scottish sentiments being expressed in England. I think the political climate is making it more likely. What compounded the thing for me was in London people were asking me, 'What is Scotland up to?' There was a sense of bewilderment about what was happening in Scotland."

So what you really are saying is that Scots should be seen but not heard? We should know our place in this great Union. If there was ever an anti-Scottish article this has to be it and from the church no less. A bit like the Orange order who prior to the last election held rally after rally to keep the union, that is sectarianism, and now the church has added to the debate delivering the same message. There is nothing to be ashamed off in seeking independence, the real bigots are those who seek to play the Nationality or religious card in order to keep scots in their place.
206

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17/02/2008 10:00:39
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207

eric,

Lothian 17/02/2008 10:03:41
Half my family live in England ,And there is a backlash which is gathering pace.They hear it from work freinds and in bars etc,Abot English taxes paying for scottish elderly ,education etc etc etc,Even though they dont know the facts,And some of it has an edge to it now.
208

Shiltrum,

Republic of Alba 17/02/2008 10:04:06
#56 Insane-omniac

.......and a lot of SNP members are English.
SO.....what's your point, you sh1t-stirrer !!!
209

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17/02/2008 10:04:57
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210

yockel,

17/02/2008 10:05:40
The Moderator is displaying one of the Scot's unfortunate weaknesses. We like to be liked. We want to be thought of as nice folk adored everywhere.
Our culture is more open than our southern neighbours but who cares if the english like us or not.
Years of listening to assertions from the south that being anti-scottish is not racist is just one of the many reasons we want rid of them.
211

Thistledhu,

Fife 17/02/2008 10:07:31
Aryshire Scot and labours chief spin master describeing us as whingeing jocks is what?
212

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17/02/2008 10:07:36
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213

Mcsnagpile,

17/02/2008 10:15:20
Do not hide behind the Anti barrier -----

One for you, two for me. Hey why do you take two? What are you anti English or something?

Globalization was introduced to Scotland before it was invented.
214

Thistledhu,

Fife 17/02/2008 10:26:15
The widely held distaste for England as an establishment does not come from the SNP it is not a politcal statement in the main.

are the welsh snp supporters
or the irish (both North and south)

It is not something to be encouraged but a large part of the blame lies with the English dominated media.

On the subject the anti scotish bias that exists in england puts the most fanactical Tartan army member in the shade.

"your not like us are you not your fault i soppose" was one comment ive received personally and not jokeingly either from a elderly person in a baptist church.(im not a baptist just there for a Wedding)

what party in england are you going to blame for that widely held veiw?

Along with being advised to stay clear of certain pubs in chelsea as a scotish accent is a passport to a kicking off the local skinheads.

Lets not crucify ourselves over a British isle wide problem not brought about by any political party but the fortunes of history.
215

Hugh,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 10:29:33
Born in the South West of England, I've lived in Scotland for 29 years. I've done business from Stranraer to Kirkwall, worked in Glasgow for two years, taught in 37 different schools, and I've never once any hostility or prejudice towards me.

Mind you, admitting to a slight interest in Hearts gains me a lot of sympathy!
216

Senga Jean,

Scotland 17/02/2008 10:38:46
Disputer is not a member of the SNP. In fact his language structure indicates he is not from Scotland. He is pretending to be an SNP supporter but really is its enemy. He hopes we will all think his insane nonsense will actually turn people off the SNP. Marooner of course is his foil in the Unionist ranter camp (his words)
217

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17/02/2008 10:39:58
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218

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17/02/2008 10:40:40
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219

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 10:41:26
210. That you can deny all the anti-English ranting that goes on these pages is rididulous.

How about the majority of posts by An Beal Bacht, Ayrshire Scot, NovaScotia, Splashe ,World View and Jackie Priest?

220

Lewisman,

lewis 17/02/2008 10:42:02
Has anyone ever told her that her father was a lawyer and factor who exercised an unhealthy and unchallenged control over crofting estates in Lewis for a generation. It was on par with the excesses of John Munro of Clearaces notoriety.
221

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17/02/2008 10:44:40
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222

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 10:46:34
235 [contd] And Robert Dunn, Roberta Burns, Guga II, Donald....
223

Queen D,

Glasgow 17/02/2008 10:49:29
I do get sick of being told that the Scots are a rabid bunch of racist bigots.
It is the last bastion of the poor debater, call someone a racist and all they can say in defence is 'no I'm not' which sounds weak and unconvincing.
I doubt that Scots are more racist or bigotted than anyone else so, stop beating yourselves with this stick. please.
Perhaps if the lady had suggested the world tried to forge an entente cordial I would be more impressed.
Though I have no doubt 'incomers' find it difficult on first arrival , Scotland is far from unique in that.
224

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 10:50:18
Some clarification for the still ill-informed nats:

1. Berwick wants to be governed by Holyrood as they want the same welfare state as Scotland.

2. Kosovo's independence is being recognised as it is the will of the clear and overwhelming 90% majority of the population plus a similarly overwhelming majority in parliament....A stark difference from the 27% support for independence seen in Scotland and minority support in Holyrood.

225

Thistledhu,

17/02/2008 10:53:40
233Pax Vobiscum read my post again ? i do not encourage racist behavior but i do point out that firstly the subject is being hijacked for politcal porposes.

And why oh why are we beating ourselves up over A uk wide problem.

Are we innocent No but we are far from the worst culprits in the British Isle's but i dont see the archbisop of canterbury makeing similer speeches and if there is an organisation who is not qualified to speack against discrimination it is a church.
226

stoatsnest,

Ham 17/02/2008 10:56:29
I think most English people I know are fond of the Scots, as are the Americans. Most of us have Scottish blood. I have a Mcdougall great grandmother, and I know another chap where I work has a Scottish grandmother. I have a tartan scarf which raises no comment.
Racism in England is mainly directed at those from further away. As for religious prejudice, we all know that there is a dreadful problem which has nothing to do with Scotland.
227

Publius,

Girvan 17/02/2008 10:57:30
An awful lot of folk in denial today. That goes a long way to showing that the moderator may be right.
228

KarenQ,

Scotland 17/02/2008 11:01:19
The disputer, can i just check what age you are? I'm guessing about 12. I'm scottish, but i've lived in England for 4 years and Ireland for 4 years - i'd seriously suggest anyone who is 'anti-english' goes and lives outside scotland for a while and get some perspective on life - generally speaking the English are fairly unaware of the scottish hatred for them and to be honest why should they care? Scotland gets a lot more out of the UK union than the English do - i woted for devolution but scotland would suffer if it trys to go independant.

The biggots in scotland should be shipped elsewhere we can well do without them, before we become seen as a petty race who STILL goes on about a battle that happened hundreds of years ago.
229

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:01:30
So how is the strong anti English sentiment expressed throughout the rest of Europe expained then? which doesnt seem to materialise where the Scots Irish or Welsh are concerned.
Ask yer average German, Frenchman, Spaniard what they think of the English.
Is it possible just possible that this anti English sentiment has been hard earned and deserved?
230

Publius,

Girvan 17/02/2008 11:02:21
P.S.
I've just found this post about Alistair Gray sent from the USA (apparently) this morning. Here you can see that Scots who associate with the English are viewed as traitors in the football world:

'Yes yet another so called SCOT going south and leaving his country behind for financial gane. Another unionist traitor moving south before he get's thrown out!'
231

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17/02/2008 11:05:14
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232

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 11:06:22
242. Of course we English have no anger, resentment or ill-will against the Scots! Why would we?!

The only anti-Scottish ranting you see are from the ill-educated, ignorant and excitable types in the tabloids and on messageboards.

Anyone with a three-digit IQ realises that Scotland has the right to spend its money how it wants; be it a generous welfare system or cuts in taxes. As Scotland favours the former is their choice.

England, if/when it finally gets its own Parliament will no doubt choose lower taxes...there almost certainly would be some resentment in Scotland when they see English disposable incomes rising faster than Scotland's but the simple solution but that's democracy for you.

Anti-SNP feelings though....a totally different matter. But again, that's democracy and the glories of free speech.
233

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 11:08:47
248. Okay, should have proof-read before posting that but you get my point!
234

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 11:14:06
245. You are talking rubbish and you know it. I work in the UN with hundreds of international colleagues, many from the former colonies (my boss is Indian for example), and there is no such resentment.

Most of them have the intellect to appreciate that the UK of today is most certainly not the same one of a 100, 300, 700 etc. years ago.

Which is more than can be said of certain contributors to this board.
235

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17/02/2008 11:14:37
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236

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 11:17:11
#231 Hugh,Edinburgh

Your experience mirrors mine in reverse. Born in NE Scotland, I lived and worked in England for the same length of time you've spent in Scotland. I taught in three English schools, as against your 37(?!), and never had a single bit of bother. I have many English friends from way back and treasure them. I had an email from my former university music tutor the other day, emphasising the fact that we have more in common than some neanderthals on here presuppose. Like you, I had a footballing get-out clause: my excuse (from childhood) was and is Newcastle United. No more needs to be said about that!
237

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:18:41
250

Bullsh*t anti English sentiment is rife all over Europe it always has been. They are generally regarded as pariahs by yer average European and yer footie fans have been the kind of ambassadors yer average european has come to expect.
238

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/02/2008 11:20:34
Anti-Englishness in Scotland is largely a myth dreamed up by the media and the devotees of political correctness. Don't confuse my desire to see England beaten at any sport they take part in and by whoever they are playing with anti-English. It is just a healthy competitiveness that always exists between near neighbours.
239

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:20:41
253

Dont try to lump the rest of the UK with England the rest of the UK doesnt have the problem with the Europeans that the English do.
240

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:22:26
254

No it isnt but its no different to the anti English sentiments expressed all over Europe.
They are bad neighbours always have been lets keep it honest if not PC at least.
241

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:23:26
The interesting thing is that the Sad Numpty People's Party (SNP) is now going to have history rewritten to exascerbate the situation. It is all good for Chubby Cheeks constant battle with Westminster. Teaching lies in schools will help his cause for independence he seems to think.
Sad wee lad!
242

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:25:33
257

Lies told in School will be nothing new then especially in history lessons.
243

Lastsocialist,

Europe 17/02/2008 11:28:39
Difficult to understand why the Scots are so anti-English. In part, it is simply a result of the general racism that exists in Scotland. It is also difficult to understand since the Scots have more often been the perpetrators of crimes than they have been victims. Scottish settlers, for example, wiped out the entire indigenous population of Tasmania. There are many things that are shameful and bigoted in Scottish culture, sectarianism being only one of them.

The real hypocrisy of anti-Englishness in Scotland is that much of it comes from Labour voters who do not even have the courage to move their country towards full independence. If the English really are so bad, then why don't they separate?
244

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 11:30:07
252. I don't think people should use sport as an indicator of latent racism.

Sport is sport and it is natural for people to want neighbouring teams to fare worse than their own; Celtic/Rangers, Man Utd/Man City, Liverpool/Everton, Barcelona/Espanyol, AC Milan/Inter etc. etc.

Just because a Scottish football/rugby fan wants England to lose is often reciprocated, although not to the extent as English hopes for France to lose. You can also throw in a desire to see Germany and (since the last WC anyway) Portugal to lose as well.

But you can't and shouldn't cite this as evidence of racism, for crying out loud!
245

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:33:19
259

No it isnt England and Scotland had been at war on and off for centuries finally we have been dragged kicking and screaming under the English yoke by our own elistist unionists but that still doesnt explain or cover the fact that anti English sentiment is rife all over Europe does it? Anti English sentiment is not unique to Scotland why is this point being avoided?
246

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 11:33:31
256. You have clearly never travelled. I suspect that you even being seen outside your bedroom is a rare event, let alone Scotland.

Begone.
247

fritigern,

Inverness 17/02/2008 11:34:02
Let's not forget the attacks on English people which followes Jack McConnell's anti-English remarks at the time of the World Cup. The Ministry of Propaganda and Public Enlightenment in Edinburgh celebrate the many cultures of Scotland except, of course, for the English.

BTW If Trump was English what's the betting that Salmond would be leading the opposition to the proposed huge destruction of SSSIs?
248

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:34:37
260

What has organised gang related thuggery got to do with sport? Why do you think europeans refer to it as the English disease?
249

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 11:34:40
238 [contd] And clearly Foulkes Off the CyberNat too.
250

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:38:25
262

Dont be an idiot! accept the burden of being English and at least take the compensation that its not your fault.
251

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 11:38:39
264. Organised football violence in England is all-but gone nowadays. How is it at the Old Firm matches nowadays?

I think you should examine continental levels of violence for a comparison. Start with Spain, Italy, Germany, Turkey, Russia, Serbia...
252

Lewisman,

Lewis 17/02/2008 11:41:03
Given the nonsense posted is it any wonder that nonentity clergy/politicians et al come out with things for the sunday papers.

In the meantime those of us in Lewis insulted by her comments should feel entitled to rake up the legacy of her father, the notorious Douglas Kesting....freedom of information anyone?
253

400g packet of chilli peanuts,

17/02/2008 11:43:39
163 fritigern

An interesting question you pose. I think if Donald Trump was English Alex Salmond would have had one of the grass roots SNP members punch him in the face.

Natrually, he can't be seen to get onvolved with that sort of violence himself. But when SNP supporters try and poison MPs because of a perceived "occupation", alarm bells do start ringing.

I did not here Alex Salmond and John Swinney rushing to codemn that. A bit like the Mulsim leaders don't rush in to condemn fanaticals, this type of hate is all good for the cause.

Basically Hitler didn't like the Jews because he saw poverty in Germany and blamed them. The SNP are Hitler's children in many respects, they see poverty and blame the English irrationally because of some 300 year old war.

I think we should continue to try and wear down the SNP fanatics with education and promoting the message that using racism daily as a tool to further your own political agenda is wrong.
254

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:44:26
267

Yes of course it has and all the extra security costs incurred by any country hosting England or any English League side is completly unnecessary and unwarrented.
why on earth do they spend so much money and go to so much expense when the English are in town?

Dont even go down that road like I said before why is it referred to by our European coleagues as the ENGLISH DISEASE? true or not it still reflects the anti English sentiment behind it does it not?????
255

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:47:54
Can anybody explain why this anti rascist sentiment in Scotland is not also directed at the Welsh and Irish if all thats to it is rascist biggotry? surely rascist biggotry on its own would be directed at all other races or ethnics groups and not just at one??
A sort of Wha's like us mentallity?
256

Nellie,

Liverpool 17/02/2008 11:53:59
I wish the Moderator would complete the "Comment:" section when comments are removed. The field is there so why not complete it?
257

400g packet of chilli peanuts,

17/02/2008 11:55:09
271 Foulkes

It's because children are only taught to hate the English in our society.

Scientologists have been furthering themselves as a destructive by trying to get member of their cult into key positions in society.

The cult of the SNP is very similair. If they have a teacher who is one of the hardcore SNP fanatics they will teach a child to hate the English when no-one is looking. We need to stamp out this type of behaviour.
258

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:56:22
269

Education from the ignorant? the foundation of unionism.
259

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 11:57:29
There is no doubt that many Scots hate England more than they love Scotland, and in most cases these people are SNP supporters.
A sort of rogue element has been permitted to develop within Scottish society, and this is a great pity because it has kept Scotland from reaching her fullest potetial.
Disliking England is something that Scots are famous for the world over, and it's a troubling blot on our almost clean slate.
Scotland is a strong, powerful and important part of the union, she will never be, nor has she ever been, a lesser partner or a state of England.
260

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:58:36
273

I was never taught by anybody to hate anybody were you?

SNP cult? so are New Labour, the Tories, the Lib Dems, the greens all cults as well? How about Margo McDonald is she a cult of one?
261

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17/02/2008 11:58:47
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262

400g packet of chilli peanuts,

17/02/2008 11:59:27
Another worrying trend in our society is that some fireman can be heard when attending the scene of a fire, first shouting through "Are you English?" before jumping in. Shameful.

This rampant racism is worse than the papers report, we should naturally curb what the SNP propoganda members can say on television. I would also put an end to the practice of writing SNP on the heads of Englishmen.
263

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 12:00:13
275

Spoken like a true master of his own faculties. Now run along and let the adults get on with an important debate.
264

Stephen Gash,

Carlisle England 17/02/2008 12:03:35
The only way to stop this is for England to be free of Scotland.

Mutual independence is necessary, so there should be a UK wide referendum on it now.
265

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 17/02/2008 12:03:54
Try as I might I can't see where the lady mentioned the SNP once in this article. mind you nor can I see where she says she asked those folk why they did not all ready know what was going on in another part of what we told is the same country, we are able to keep ourselves abreast of what goes on down there and I would have thought that Londoners could have done the same, especially in this day and age after all that is where Westminster is, so they could always ask some of our MPs.

This attitude could go a long way to explain many of the wrongs that befall us.

BTW, Ayrshire and E V can now explain how they both abhor racism towards Scots and those in Scotland, I am sure it was just an oversight on their part not to have done so already, they can also confirm that such a thing as racism does exist in England, as else where, something else they forgot to mention, unlike the SNP who condemn it unreservedly wherever it exists!
266

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/02/2008 12:10:38
281 The Ayrshire and Disputer are of course fakeys, so they wont explain much I fear.

Racism of any kind should not be tolerated.
267

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/02/2008 12:12:28
267. Really - a quick google search brings up 10 organised English football hooligan websites....

English HooligansUpload, view, comment and rate hooligan footage FREE!
www.english-hooligans.co.uk/ - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
268

Clive Hamblin,

Hove, Sussex. 17/02/2008 12:13:17
Humour, even bad humour, is one thing-bigotry entirely another.
269

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 12:15:43
Foulkes

You cannot get on with debate, because unless the debate revolves around your issues and short sighted ideoligies, you run for the hills.
A problem exists in Scottish society with regards to anti English sentiment, and to deny that, is to expose your lack of understanding regarding the Scottish psyche.
Speaking of adults, perhaps you should run down stairs and ask your folks how much band width you're permitted to use this month.
270

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 12:16:49
282

Predudice is as natural to the human condition as any other emotion you cant combat it by legislation or rules. Each individual has to deal with it on an individual basis every day.
It would help however if people were more careful around each other so as not to ignite an excuse for predudice and forcing ones values on somebody else is no the best way of going about this.
I hope I am no being too vague.
271

400g packet of chilli peanuts,

17/02/2008 12:17:40
286 Clive Hamblim

Your disgusting pro-SNP, pro-racism post is an outrage.

Here is the golden rule. It is only a joke when the victim finds it funny.

Would you support the SNP's Young Team going out and happy slapping an English business and recording it?

How about minstrels? That is less obvious, but if the SNP had minstrels in their annual conference would you find that "bad-humour" to be good.
272

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 12:17:43
287

Nobody can debate with trolls cos they are no here to debate its that simple. Now troll off.
273

Pilrig,

Livingston 17/02/2008 12:19:21
I make no apology for wanting the English national team getting stuffed. That's as far as it goes. If the Old Firm or the herz were to play an English club in Europe then I'd support the later.

West Brom for the FA Cup !


(to the tune of "Land of Hope and Glory")

We hate Glasgow Rangers,
We hate Celtic too (they're sh*te),
We hate Heart of Midlothian,
But Hi-Bees we love you.
274

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/02/2008 12:25:37
289. Recently we have had a Labour MP likening Alex Salmond to Hitler, and a Labour council leader calling SNP councillors Nazi's. I dont know why you focus on the SNP as a source of intemperate slurs which debase democratic politics, but Labour seem to be doing little to raise the tone of discussion in Scotland.
275

,

17/02/2008 12:25:58
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276

treacleswamp,

17/02/2008 12:30:12
Anti English sentiment stems from the way the act of union was acheived. Get over it! We have got over worse injustices, inc 2 world wars, in the last century. Anti-Scottish in England is very recent: jealousy that a small country can change things for the better more quickly than a large one. Scotland has often been a pioneer for changes that will follow in England, and will continue to be so.
277

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/02/2008 12:33:51
294 - Disputer is a unionist fake, best ignored - the "i" is a weird ansi character

278

TerryH,

England 17/02/2008 12:34:18
“In return the English are not overly well regarded in many parts of the world while the Scots are generally liked.”

Who told you that, your mum? If you bothered leaving your bedroom once in a while, you’d realise that you're notso wellloved as yourmum led you to believe. Here’s one example where the Scots are especially not welcomed abroad. I’m sure there’s plenty of others. http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=975&id=437362007

“They are bad neighbours always have been…”

If you think you’re such bloody wonderful neighbours, why do you think more Englishmen want Scottish independence than the Scots do? Is it because your self inflated opinion of yourself makes you believe that you’re “well regarded”?

I don’t mind my taxes keeping the likes of Foulkes on the dole, but it is a bit galling when he bites the hand that feeds him.
279

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 12:36:42
297

I rest my case.
280

,

17/02/2008 12:40:40
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281

,

17/02/2008 12:40:47
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282

,

17/02/2008 12:41:08
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283

TerryH,

17/02/2008 12:53:00
300 What case might that be then?

Rants and theories born from conversations with your mum and your mates don't constitute a "case".
284

TerryH,

17/02/2008 12:53:51
sorry 298, not 300
285

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 12:59:41
305

No but you do.
286

TerryH,

17/02/2008 13:02:28
Spook, you don’t have to put up with these numpties, their behaviour should not be excused.

As for the man who approached a kid wearing an England top, he didn’t “say” something stupid. The big brave Scotsman physically attacked a seven year old for wearing an England top in Edinburg… see here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5101184.stm

Cameron didn’t say he wanted to attack Brown for being Scottish. Cameron actually said he liked Brown and shared such things as “Scottish blood”, see here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4637948.stm
287

TerryH,

17/02/2008 13:07:08
308 what, you’ve run out of argument? You seemed so passionate, so convinced in your own imagination.

I expected a cast iron, reasoned, rebuttal backed up by well founded research and a little searing wit.

No, I didn’t really, I’m just kidding.
288

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/02/2008 13:07:26
301. Well said.
289

morris,

edinburgh 17/02/2008 13:08:08
Of course anti English feeling is wrong and racist.Anti Westminster feeling however has its place provided we recognise that we have a democracy which allows us to express our political views,and Scotlands government is decided by Scotlands electorate.if anyone in Scotland is unhappy about anything in modern Scotland rest assured you are afforded the opportunity at the ballot box to remove whatever you dont like.If the majority favour X then X it should be. One thing for sure,its NOT THE FAULT OF THE ENGLISH !Its our own. We get what we elect.
290

TerryH,

17/02/2008 13:10:51
The numbers have resynched! My now #307 was aimed at Foulkes, not some future poster!
291

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 13:12:47
305

Aye thats true the big erse did attack the wee boy for wearing an England top and apoligised afterwards for it says he was drunk at the time no excuse of course the father should have prosecuted him through the courts but stories like these are not uncommon throughout Europe whenever and wherever England play or English league sides go. Much more common in fact women and kids left lying bleeding in the streets after a rampage deaths as well. Very diplomatic and ambassadorial.
But the footie thuggery is just a small part of it not the whole picture at all the underlying problems have been built up over time

You sow what you reap as the saying goes.
292

Timothy Cayler,

Caldwell Idaho USA 17/02/2008 13:16:05
There should be no suprise to anyone that anti-English sentiments continue to be expressed. If anyone remembers King Edward I and successive English monarchs who systematically raped and burned Scotland for hundreds of years. Not, that raping and burning was one sided, but no amount of time is going to completely heal old wounds.

The sad thing for me is that world wide, the descendents of the Scots of the Diaspora,largely don't know who they are.

It's not much different than the anti- Mexican sentiments being tossed around here by those of us who have lived here for generations, now being over-run by a flood of illegals from the south. We never had gang fights and drive-by shootings until they came here en massé.

Fide et Fortitudine, aye!
293

morris,

edinburgh 17/02/2008 13:19:09
301 The Spook in Leith,

I know exactly where you are coming from Spartan Spook.I also have a dark complexion (typically Mediteranean)which is from my Canadian fathers side and is certainly French/ Quebecois and possibly other influnences ,but I am born in Leith.One thing I can say without fear of contradiction.

Racism presumes superiority over another, but is invariably nonsense based and usually prevalent amongst the lower intelects.
If someone offered you a Rolls Royce would you refuse it because its Black? The answer is obvious ! Who cares Its a Roller !
The same applies to people.
I once saw a very young Benazhir Bhutto bending over a table and thought I may be a chauvinist sexist pig, but I am no racist!Its just sad that she disapointed so many,and paid the ultimate price of course.

The lowest form of life on the planet is the racist ! They are not superior to anybody.They are below the common garden worm.
294

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 13:20:19
311

I suppose I should have said you reap what you sow probably my passion getting in the way.
295

Jambo Number 1,

17/02/2008 13:22:59
I'd like anybody to help me here...

Please can someone tell me where all this "Anti-Englishness" actually is? I don't see it in my everyday life.

Please don't wast my time talking about 10 year olds in England tops.

Please give examples of this "serious" problem we have in this country.

This is simply a smokescreen. The leader of an organisation nobody cares about makes a silly comment to get her face in the paper.
296

Number 6,

Germany 17/02/2008 13:26:31
Kesting should keep her utterances for the pull-pit,
that's if she can rustle up a congregation of course.

We have seen recently how out of touch religious leaders in the UK are, with Runcies ignorant and ill conceived gibberish ref Sharia Law. She should head south with her crusade, where the anti-scottish commentaries in the English media, are far more vitriolic than anything published north of the border.
How dare this ignoramous suggest that anti english sentiments are fueling anti scottish rhetoric.

That's right hen, it's all our fault.
297

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 13:27:03
James Cole

No, I think all that is needed in Scotland is for certain people to grow up!
Scotland is a great place, it is independent in terms of its culture, Scotland is independent in terms of nationality, we just happen to share a partnership with 3 other awesome British nations who also have their own identity!
Hating England is pathetic, especially when you hear people speaking about 700 year old wars. It laughable!
And the strange thing is this, the people who bring up the 700 year old wars are the first to ridicule the English commentators who bring up 1966! Go figure
298

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 13:31:23
Jambo Number 1

You're having a laugh! hahahahah!
Now I have heard it all.
Next you'll be telling us that the Scots support England whenever they play football, and that we all stand to attention when god saves the queen is playing!
lmfao, you could'nt make some of this sh!t up. lol
299

morris,

edinburgh 17/02/2008 13:31:57
320

The truth is pretty well everybody in Scotland is sick to the teeth of hearing about 1966. It was 40 years ago and thats whats wrong,Its not anti English feeling.Its just sick of hearing about 1966. I know supporters of the Tory party who are sick of it!I even know some English people who are embarrassed by it.

Its a case of if we want a parrot ,we go to the pet shop and buy one!
We dont expect one with our TV licence !
300

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 13:33:56
318

Lets face it the anti English sentiment exists its just not exclusive to Scotland its shared by all of Englands nearest neighbours and by some not so near why are we trying to step around this fact?
Lets have a good honest debate on this I think its very important and raises all kinds of issues.
301

Impartial,

Dundee. 17/02/2008 13:34:18
Well said Jambo Number 1 - just who gives these religeous leaders the mandate for recent controversial edicts? We have politicians, who can be voted in or our by the whole population, to grapple with these matters. They would be much better advised to spend their time, working out how their redundant notions, can seem appealing, without the fear of previous generations. And in the Church of Scotland's case specifically, how to solve their dire financial predicament, without selling off one of the biggest property portfolios in the country. The church no longer occupies the high moral ground for the vast majority of Scots and lectures from them, are irksome and irrelevant.
302

,

17/02/2008 13:35:09
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303

TerryH,

17/02/2008 13:35:13
311 I guess that seven year old must have done some pretty bad "sowing" to deserve that treatment!

As for English hooligans, I hate what they do to our reputation, but I've never heard of them attacking women and children! The World Cup in Germany saw England fans behaving very well (some exceptions obviously)and I think this was because of the German invitation for all to go over (even without tickets) to join the parties watching big screems in their parks.

The way that kid and the disabled bloke was treated was shameful and a direct link to the Anglophobic sentiments addressed by this article.
304

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 13:37:41
Spook:

I agree that Scotland is a great country with relatively no racial problems.
What Scotland does have is cultural intollerance, and its rife! We all know that asian folk and white folk live and socialise in completely different circles, not because they are racist, but because the two cultures are very different. Whenever in Scotland, I often hear the terms chinky and paK i. I dont regard this as racism, it is culturally intollerant expression and it is usually only employed by the minority.
But the intollerance exists, that is fact!
305

,

17/02/2008 13:37:44
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306

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 13:39:50
Spook

Its banter when we are confronted by those who expose the problem, it's anti Englishness when it happens unobserved.
307

Jambo Number 1,

17/02/2008 13:44:11
Funny that Media 1.

I walked down the shops today, didn't see any Anti Englishness.Been at work all last week, didn't seen any anti Englishness. Went to Tynecastle the other week, didn't see any anti Englishness. Was at the pub the other night, didn't see any anti Englishness. I was at the Museum last month didn't see any anti Englsihness....

~Now, can you see where I am going?

These "serious problems" and "cancer on society", well they don't appear to be in evidence as far as I am concerned, as a living breathing Scottish person living in Scotland I imagine that this Society Cancer would have been a tad noticable?

But you see Media 1, this sort of story perfectly fits your Unionist agenda. You couldn't, when asked by me, give any evidence of this so called problem, Any stats, links? I mean this must be some kind of daily occurance I presume? What with it being such a problem.

A kid got punched by a drunk during the world cup the other year, wow. A drunk idiot behaves like a drunk idiot.

What makes me angry about this nonsense is that it diverts attention from groups in Scotland who suffer REAL racism, Muslim people, Black people, basically anyone who isn't white - That is the real problem where RASICSM is concerned.
308

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 17/02/2008 13:44:53
You Scots are ALWAYS complaining and whining and bitching about something or another.

So, the English threw you off your lands centuries ago and treated you like sh*t.

GET OVER IT!
309

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 13:47:42
328

Oh please the casualties of English soccer thuggery are well documented but this as I have said is only a minor issue overall and only adds to the bad feeling and sentiment that has existed long before european football. As I have stated the English are simply bad neighbours and have treated all of their neighbours with distain, contempt and physical abuse at a national level and thats putting it mildly.
If you want to bring the Sun newspaper into the debate lets talk about some of their headlines with words such as "Frogs" to describe the French and "Krauts" to descibe the Germans I have even read the word "Spic" used in relation to a story in Portugal.
You cant dismiss this sort of thing as not being part of the English psyche we all know it is.
310

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 13:48:20
Jambo

That is fantastic, maybe things are changing!
I look forward to all the pubs in Ediburgh getting behind the English in their next big game....
I look forward to never hearing the anti English nonsense ever again in Scotland. I look forward to nobody ever complaining that their money cant be used in England, or that the commentator mentioned 1966 again. This new Scotland you describe sounds tremendous.
311

IainGlasgow,

17/02/2008 13:48:29
#10

I bet you can't quote one single post that meets that description and even if you can you can't prove the poster is in any way connected with or is a supporter of the SNP. Infact most people I've heard making anti-english remarks are Daily Retard readers who would follow the Labour party over the edge of a cliff
312

Queen D,

Glasgow 17/02/2008 13:49:15
Racism is part of the human condition in most countries.
There will always be those who think others are lesser beings in every country.
Stop beating yourselves with this stupid stick.
313

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 13:54:02
Spook

I would say that I have only ever heard or seen cultural intollerance. Racism is when you simply cant stand someone because their skin colour is not to you liking, and I dont believe that there is many of those around the world. A few perhaps, but not many! The divide is cultural.
I am not sure what the most famous Scottish racist or culturally intolerant time was, I think Scotland has managed to avoid heavy levels of divide in terms of colour, its religion and the English that appears to consume most of the Scottish hate radar.
314

Jambo Number 1,

17/02/2008 13:57:08
338,

Sorry, I can't contain myself any more.

Media 1 - you are, without doubt, the most deluded and frankly DIM person I have actually come apon on the Scotsman forums.

I try and avoid personally attacking someone when it come to politics but I cannot hold back.

It is not RACIST or even Anti English to want the England Football team not to win. It is not a problem what so ever in Society and does not hurt anyone.

The Anti English nonsense you say you "hear in Scotland" - where do you go to hear it? As I said, I was down the newsagent earlier and been out a few times, never heard any Anti Englishness.


And I would SIMPLY LOVE for you to try and explain the comment you made about "People complaining about Scottish money not being accepted in England". I mean I laughed at the sheer comedy value of that one Media - I mean here we are talking about Anti Englishness in Scotland and you come up with that!

So, Football, 1966 and Scots moaning aboot their money. Is this the limit of this Society Cancer. Is this it?
315

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 14:08:22
Jambo

You're like the Klu Kluts Klan member who says the organisation isnt racist..lmao

From the Scotsman not that long ago; Scottish nationalists protest that they are not responsible for the vast increase in anti-English feeling in our midst and many who shout anti-English slogans and obscenities at international sports events claim it is all in good fun. But is it? And from where does such animosity stem, that an entire nation will gather to watch the English fail?
It is high time our politicians, sportsmen and authorities in Scotland started condemning in the strongest terms the growing anti-English racism which is becoming almost Scotland's trademark in the outside world.
Stan Elder first distorts the opinions expressed in my letter, then dismisses his version as "rubbish" (Letters, 4 February).

It is not rubbish to say there is a growing, deplorable and dangerous anti-English racism among Scots. Nor is it rubbish to say there is no equivalent level of hostility to Scots in England.

When Scotland plays Germany, France or any other country at football or rugby, most English root for Scotland. When Andy Murray plays at Wimbledon, the English in the crowd are behind him. The reaction of Scots to English teams and players is quite the opposite – even intelligent and well-educated Scots these days will support England's opponents.

This so-called "fun" attitude to England has had a bad influence on Scottish youngsters and has led to a rise in abuse, vandalism and assaults directed against English residents and tourists.

Jambo! You sir, are in denial! I do not believe that you are serious at all, no Scotsman could possibly state what you just did with any sort of validity.
316

Jambo Number 1,

17/02/2008 14:17:20
What did I state?

That I don't see Sports as a perticularly serious problem in our society.

I mean I don't really care and I doubt out freinds down south care either.

You see Media 1 - There is a lot more to life than Sports and the fact that Scots don't want England to win (and why would they) is hardly a blight on society, nobody is harmed, the world does not jolt on its axis.

You utter such rubbish such as :

"It is not rubbish to say there is a growing, deplorable and dangerous anti-English racism among Scots."

This is utter horse crap, you made it up. Not only do you not have a single piece of evidence to back this up, you also "supposedly" don't live here - so one finds it hard to gather exactly where you gather the facts for this grandious claim.

317

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 14:20:55
The English in Scotland are constantly reminded of being different and face a difficult task in blending in with the majority population, according to new research.

As the largest immigrant population in Scotland, they face strongly negative attitudes towards them as a group, while often being welcomed as individuals, the Stirling University study found. The findings, set to appear in the journal, Sociology, are summed up by the reports title, quoting one example of the attitudes towards those in the research: We Hate The English, But Not You, Because You're Our Pal. Using in-depth research into the experiences of a sample of 30 English people living in central Scotland, the researchers found that "recurring moral panics" in the media about belligerent discrimination and anti-English prejudice are not borne out by the experience of the English in Scotland. But it also found that the English minority is not comfortably well-integrated as others claim.

There was a preoccupation among Scots for seeking out differences, and the study concludes this is made stronger because of the outward similarities between the English and Scots. The research is all the more timely this week after First Minister Jack McConnell set out his plans to make it easier for people to migrate to Scotland to live and work. Much of his plan has focused on bringing immigrants into Scotland from outside the UK. But one of the easiest ways of turning around the falling Scottish population could be through attracting more English workers and retaining more English students after graduation from Scottish universities.
The Stirling research found that being English is the subject of constant reminders from Scots, including teasing, jokes, questions, hostility over sports, or the assumption that they were only briefly visiting Scotland. There is stronger antipathy to some accents, such as the educated twang of the Home Counties, while Scots can be more tolerant of northern English accents, ass
318

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 14:22:33

assumed to be more working class. English-born people reported they were particularly conscious of the alleged links made by Scots between English accents and being "upper" or "middle class", "posh", "arrogant", "snobby", "individualistic" or "rightwing".

Oh it exists alright! We know it,and so does the rest of the world.
Even our anthem is about sending the English home to think again. One would think that our passion for Scotland would result in an anthem that was all about Scotland as opposed to England.
Yes I know the verse "rebellious scots to crush" but I aint ever hear it, have you? But hell can we hear "send him to think again" how sad.




319

Jambo Number 1,

17/02/2008 14:25:55
"The findings, set to appear in the journal, Sociology, are summed up by the reports title, quoting one example of the attitudes towards those in the research: We Hate The English, But Not You, Because You're Our Pal. Using in-depth research into the experiences of a sample of 30 English people living in central Scotland, the researchers found that "recurring moral panics" in the media about belligerent discrimination and anti-English prejudice are not borne out by the experience of the English in Scotland."




And this story in the Scotland on Sunday is just that!!

Thanks for making my point for me!

Perhaps you should have read it first! Back off to google with you.
320

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 14:28:41
So much for intelligent debate then I see this thread has gone t*ts up already.
321

Jambo Number 1,

17/02/2008 14:29:34
So the English people think that we Scots think they are snobs?

Oh god, dear the poor wee lambs, how CAN they cope?

Oh, and as far as Flower of Scotland goes, a song about the history of this country, I have no problem with it, I don't know any English people who have a problem with it, and since King Edward and his Army have been dead for a few hundred years, I can't see them getting to upset about it.
322

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 14:44:39
349

And did they conclude that they found no justification for their findings? Is there no justification for this anti english sentiment irrespective as to whether it is PC or not? is it just an irrational emotion brought about with no definable excuse or reason?
Did they even bother to try and quantify this?
Did they include where this sentiment might originate from in their research? or was it like all research subjective and narrow based to reach specific conclusions?
Who was this research for? Who asked for it? Politicians?
What conclusion have you drawn from it?
323

TerryH,

17/02/2008 14:48:42

Jambo, you said “A kid got punched by a drunk during the world cup the other year, wow. A drunk idiot behaves like a drunk idiot.”

Wow? Is that your opinion, really? I’ve been drunk more times than I care to admit and I have never, ever come near to thumping a seven year old kid! How can you possibly justify it as something drunks just do? Drunks don’t behave this way!

Also, do you think you’ve not experienced Anglophobic bigotry because, er you’re not English?

You say in response to "It is not rubbish to say there is a growing, deplorable and dangerous anti-English racism among Scots." With this…”This is utter horse crap, you made it…”

This data shows attitudes to the English to be getting worse amongst Scotland’s young (see figure four) uphttp://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/09/06133626/5 If it is an upward trend in the young, it must be on the increase because bigotry is a learned behaviour.

Foulkes, can you cite examples of English football fans attacking women and children, I couldn’t find any on google?
324

Queen D,

Glasgow 17/02/2008 14:50:13
No worse than land of hope and glory or indeed the National Anthem - can't remember if they have removed the bit about rebellious Scots , have they?
That said could we speed up Flower of Scotland and sing it with a bit more energy?
It would definitely sound better!
325

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 14:51:08
#319 Number 6,Germany

The "Sharia gibberish" was not uttered by Runcie, but by Bird's-Nest Beard Rowan Williams. Bob Runcie (Scouse-born humanitarian type with Scots heritage) was archbiscuit until, I think, 1991 and he died in 2000. Rowan Williams is one of these well-meaning fools that the Church of England seems to attract like blue flies to a midden.
326

Calum Crubag,

17/02/2008 14:54:26
Media #350 - Flower of Scotland speaks of 'these days are in the past and in the past they must remain'. Its quite forward looking.

England is the most xenophobic nation in Europe.

Lots of other nations are anti-English in some way - i wonder why? Perhaps it's because they once filled the role that the US does now as an imperialist invader and destroyer of many nations.
327

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 14:55:09
356

Well the Sun the Mirror the express the Mail all of their sunday publications, The French media, The German media, The Dutch media, The Belgian media, The Italian Media, The Spanish media, The Portugese media etc etc would you like me to list them all? I might miss a few.
328

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 14:57:38
356

I doubt the sentiment is getting any worse its just not getting any better than its always been.
Nobody seems to want to take on my issue of it being justified why is that?
329

Calum Crubag,

17/02/2008 14:57:58
by the way - i wonder if attitudes to Kesting in her Lewis childhood stemmed from her lack of Gaelic. At a time when many people in Lewis used little or no English, it could be argued that her family's insistence on forcing their English on the natives was racist.

These attitude remain - English speakers, Scots included, are notoriously backward towards other languages, even their own.
330

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 14:58:06
360. Jeez, is this anti-English rant by Foulkes the Cybernet STILL going?

He asked you to cite examples....how are they examples?

How old are you anyway??
331

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 15:05:21
363

Oh goodie another irrelevant troll or is it the same one? who knows who cares?
332

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 15:05:54
359. "England is the most xenophobic nation in Europe"?

More total crap from the ignorant and clueless rant-rage nationalists.

We are the destination of choice for EU migrants, with up to 6m workers and their families moving here in the last few years.

Let's not forget the masses of migrants from the Middle East, the Far East, the Caribbean, Africa and the Americas that have settled in england over the past decades.

How the hell are we "xenophobic"? Would these people settle in a place that hates them so much? How about all the Scots that have moved to England? You nats whinge about how "the English hate Scots so much" yet thousands of Scots live quite happily in England.

Any chance you could back this up with any evidence? Not that any nat has ever managed to prove any of their pathetic, inane and childish claims.
333

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 15:07:24
364. Back up your childish claims or shut up.
334

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 15:12:09
365 [contd]. How about that many of our most historic companies have been taken over by foreigners with barely a whisper of protest? England has embraced globalisation with only a minority of bigots failing dismally to fight it.

It is the backward view of inward-looking nationalism in the face of progressive globalisation and internationalism that is the hallmark of the SNP and its supporters.
335

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 15:13:21
Calum Crubag

Are you for real?
To seperate England and Scotland by suggesting that the English were the imperialist invaders of foreign lands is outrageous. The Scots and many of our famous regiments were very involved in the control of one third of the world's land mass. Scotland as part of the United Kingdom was an avid and excited part of these imperialist invasions. It's just that the word "BRITISH" has always been thought by foreigners to be strictly English, which as WE KNOW is not the case.
By virtue of being the largest nation in the union, England has shouldered the blame for a colonial past that involved Scottish force and power. Scotland was a willing partner and a very important player in that once dominant super power, and she has benefitted greatly from it.
To seperate England and Scotland in terms of Britains colonial past is nothing more than absolute nationalist denial.
There does exist anti English sentiment in Scotland, and it is shocking.
Scotland must grow up!
336

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 15:15:01
365

You ignorant t*sser they are being kicked out of every country they enter we happen to be the last in line and have nowhere else to kick em out to.
And dont the English just love having them next door?
I see the welcomming sentiment expressed in nearly every immigation story in the press and the news media.
Anti immigation policy is one of the hottest political potatoes under debate right now with both major political parties in parliament tripping over themselves trying to show whos toughest on anti immigration.
But dont let the truth get in the way of yer p*sh it never has in the past.
337

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 15:16:09
368. Let's not forget Scotland's pre-Union imperialist ambitions.

The Darian Scheme anyone?
338

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 15:17:10
369. Once again I ask:

How old are you?

You post like an ill-educated teenager.
339

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 15:18:03
Jambo Number 1

I bet you have an Argentina strip in your cupboard that you wear whenever England is playing.

Did you know,that in 2002, there was more Argentina tops sold in Scotland than any other country in the world outside of the South American nation itself.

I wonder whose group Argentina were in?
Laughable,pathetic and short sighted is what it is...
340

,

17/02/2008 15:20:22
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Reason:
341

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 15:22:16
Lay off the Irn-Bru, Disputer...
342

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 15:22:54
366

When have you ever backed yours up ya sick wee troll?

but here's one example that only took me a couple of seconds to find maybe you need to try harder.

http://phoenix.swarthmore.edu/2007-02-15/sports/16871

Note the piece concerning the English fans in Portugal.
343

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 15:24:06
371

Way above your level then would you like me to dumb down my posts for you?
344

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 15:25:00
An English Voice

You are wasting your time. You need to remember what you are dealing with here. These are people who have been indoctrinated to dislike the English based on a history most know little about.
Their views are mainly the residue of years of fabricated tales and anti English sentiment brought to them by people who were never actively involved in searching for their own truths. In otherwords, most of what they think they know, often results in them finding out that they know nothing, which is when they lash out with their verbal tirades and pretend they actually like the English, prior to kissing the Argentina badge on the football strip they wore that day when England were playing.
345

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 15:26:31
375. A blog from an American student??? That's your 'evidence'?

LOL!
346

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 15:28:05
You truly are an idiot, Foulkes!

I'm positive now that if you removed all nats from the equation, Scotland's average IQ would quadruple!
347

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 15:30:17
377. Of course, you are right.

They are blinkered beyond all reason.

Although this really should be expected from those who consider the SNP to be a reliable source for historical or statistical research.
348

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17/02/2008 15:34:40
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349

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 15:34:44
#379

I often find myself apologising for the mindless attitudes of some of my fellow Scots. I need to hang my head in shame when I hear that pathetic anthem, and I wonder how long it will be until we hear an anthem that celebrates Scotland as opposed to one that has a go at England.
But my despair does not lead me to frustration, because thankfully, the majority of Scots are proud Scottish folk, and not short sighted English haters.
350

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 15:35:49
378

No I listed my evidence above you must have seen it because you commented on it can you get any dumber?
That was a reference to evidence printed in 2004 or didnt you notice?
I was only being satirical before with regards to dumbing down my posts now I may actually have to seriously consider it.
351

Janis *,

london 17/02/2008 15:36:11

English voice Don't let Cybernat Foulkes get to you, he is brandishing his wooden spoon per usual. Foreigners don't like us...... oh yea! The daffodils are out & London is awash with tourists, heaving with them. Can't think why they come!

Blimey many even come to live here. London now known as the 5th French City there are so many French residents. The French after all are very discerning people, they a know a great place when they see it.

I do wish some of these clerics would stop & think before they engage their mouths. The CofS's Moderator sounds as naive as Archbishop of Canterbury.

Dorset natives call outsiders "blow ins", Cornish will call us "Grockels" Highlanders refer to "White Incomers" & we refer to persons beyond the M25 as "peasants". Good fun isn't it!

352

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17/02/2008 15:36:36
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353

Bzzzz1314,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 15:38:58
It's time all these bleatin idiots recognised the difference between sporting rivalry and hatred, it is also time that people recognised desperate attempts by panicking unionists to stain the SNPs aspirations. It's not done by political means it is done by finger pointing, false accusations and name calling. Pathetic and no surprise they were voted out.
English voice, you are so proudly defending your pathetic out dated damaging union, you take it and keep it down south of the border, we are busy building ourselves a better country.
354

Gothic Rose,

17/02/2008 15:41:29
the question@205# for 202# Wee berty was, intended for Wee Berty 199#Yed I`m all mixed up and,thats being stone cold sober.Never mind I`m laughing at myself:)
and don`t want to know,the answer to the question,whatever it was."Let them eat cake."
355

Lewisman,

lewis 17/02/2008 15:43:02
Ms Kesting should be told that the name Kesting stirs up horrible memories with those who in Lewis trusted her father as a supposedly respectable lawyer...

Is it any wonder she experienced the backlash from those whose trust her father abused over so many years?
356

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 15:47:35
384

Oh look the troll is talking to itself now.
357

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 15:52:24
Take Bzzz 1314 for instance.
He is so consumed with English dislike that his name makes mention of the battle of Bannockburn.
700 years on, and he is still harbouring anti English sentiment. You can almost see him now, grabbing his sword under the orders of Alex Salmomd and heading south for a wee fight wae the auld enemy. lmao
Does it get anymore pathetic?
358

Janis *,

london 17/02/2008 15:53:19

389 No you're wrong on that too!
359

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2008 15:53:54
#370/1 An English Voice

>>>Let's not forget Scotland's pre-Union imperialist ambitions.

The Darian Scheme anyone?<<<

How old are you?

You post like an ill-educated teenager.

The Union of the Crowns was a century before the project to link the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans by a 50 mile landbridge over Panama, elliminating the need for 17th century sailing vessels to navigate thousands of miles over what even today is the world's most dangerous searoute.

It was sabotaged in the interests of the Dutch and British East India Companies under the instructions of the King of Britain 'Good King Billy' who warned international traders to refuse to sell goods to the Scottish expedition, had English warships sink a Scottish resupply ship, killed his own subjects and also betrayed his loyal subjects to England's arch enemy the Spanish for good measure.

So, apart from attempting to build a 50mile road through the Central American jungle which could've saved countless lives, prevented untold misery for mariners and opened up world trade, what other 'imperialist aggression' did Scotland indulge herself in?
360

Lewisman,

Lewis 17/02/2008 15:56:22
If our Moderator went for a walk round the crofting townships of Lewis and mention the word Kesting..she would soon hang her head in shame...

How dare she pontificate about her experience growin up in Lewis...just ask anyone about your father's legacy a ghraidh
361

Encephalon,

17/02/2008 15:57:37
#318 I'd like anybody to help me here...

Please can someone tell me where all this "Anti-Englishness" actually is? I don't see it in my everyday life.



Exactly-sohow many English people have been shot in Inverness, ethnically cleansed in Glasgow, raped in Edinburgh or properties firebombed in Dundee?

None -story is a sham. As for the attack on the English football fan I witnessed plenty of anti-Scottish sentiment when I lived in London and could recount a few tales. However most Scots and English get on fine most of the time but I admit there is an element of arrogance in a certain type of Englishman that makes the blood boil-but they are the exception and sportswise it is normally very profitable waiting for them to fall on their erses-sorry but true!

As for this Kesting-likes the limelight too much for my liking but I suppose it makes a change from the poor old Cardinal having to take the flak all the time!
362

TerryH,

17/02/2008 15:57:40
English Voice and Media 1, re Foulkes ...don't feed the Troll

You've been a wonderful audience. I am so pleased to see that anglophobic bigotry is so dead in Scotland. Having said that English feelings towards Scotlans are even worse... you're irrelevant.

Night y'all
363

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2008 15:59:39
#390 Village Idiot,cape town
Does it get anymore pathetic?

Yes IMHO your attempts.

364

Lewisman,

lewis 17/02/2008 16:03:33
Kesting and his ilk must be turning in their graves now that crofters have been given some rights...

at least we could look these crooks in the eye... unlike our fathers could do...
365

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2008 16:04:46
#394 Encephalon

You will see it in eg. Liverpool, Birmingham and London when Manchester United FC win/lose.

It's precisely the same anti-English feeling, only exhibited by...

- other Englishmen.
366

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 16:05:46
I am still amazed that nobody has taken up the point that anti English sentiment thoughout the UK and the rest of Europe may actually be justified.
You may no get a better chance to debate this than now.
367

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2008 16:19:57
#399 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

There are a few English people that I haven't got along with, but many more Scots.
Am I supposed to be an 'English-hater' on the grounds that my old boss in London was a bit of a tit?

You wouldn't be making the usual faux pas of confusing English football comentators, and the political establishment in London with the English as a race?

My grannie was English, so was my mother in law, but I don't judge everyone south of the border by my familial misadventures.
368

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2008 16:22:38
make that English sports commentators in general and one Irish one on Radio Fivelive.
369

Bzzzz1314,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 16:24:41
Media 1,
in 1999 I got stabbed in the face by and england "football supporter" in Edinburgh after leaving Glasgow because of the behaviour of the english hooligans in the city centre. I support my country and enjoy the rivalry, I do however understand the difference between rivalry and hatred, the person who stuck a knife in my face twice did not and whilst being part of the minority has tainted my opinion and attitude forever and understandably so but not to the point where I would claim to hate every english person as that is a moronic attitude, there are good and bad everywhere.
It seems to me that it is you that is the idiot if you cannot recognise the difference between banter and bigotry and understand that we as a nation are not so stupid to hate another nations people as individuals, yes in rivalry, that's fine but as individuals, well, that's just pathetic. I would have thought that considering your claim to be in Cape Town you might have a more positive input into such a discussion due to the nature of the regions recent history but no, you just appear to be an idiot.
370

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 17/02/2008 16:28:35
So Marc Horne's been promoted from stories about Scotland having no snow to claiming we're all evil racists. Now that's what I call progress.

....................................
Horne's dilemma One hack who could have had a better election was Sunday Times reporter Marc Horne, who is shortly to start at Scotland On Sunday as senior reporter. A few weeks ago his betters sent him to Aberdeen to collect Alex Salmond to bring him to Glasgow for an interview. Not only was Horne expected to chauffeur the SNP leader, the budget was too tight to pay for a hotel room for the night. It was suggested instead that he ask Salmond if he could kip on his sofa. Horne thought this ridiculous and refused, which apparently made his last weeks even more frosty than before.
....................................

From mediawatch...Interestingly the original article dies not display in SoS...but the hilarious comments do..


"A recent Scotland On Sunday article, by Marc Horne, slamming VisitScotland for promoting snowsports has sparked a virulent attack on its author by members fo the Winterhighland.com online community. The article chastises the tourism organisation for using a videoclip of a scottish snowboarder to promote such sports. The gist of the attack is that as global warming has melted all the scottish snow so thhe clip shouldn't be included. The full article and commentary is here
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1521032007

The assertions made were a red rag to the members of Winterhighland. A thread attacking the assertions can be found here. http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/read.php?2,78779

The communities members took great joy in challenging the assertions with photographic evidence that do clearly show that it does still snow in Scotland and there is still plenty of snowsports action. In addition a number of the 'experts' interviewed by Marc Horne claim that he selectively edited their quotes out of context

Do you think Marc Horne
371

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17/02/2008 16:33:04
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372

Charles1234,

17/02/2008 16:42:57
J J MAROONER,KIRKCALDY wrote: "Well over to you SNP"

Did you skip the bit that said:

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "There is no place for discrimination or extremism of any kind in 21st-century Scotland and the Scottish Government is determined to do everything it can to stamp it out. A modern Scotland should be all about acceptance and celebrating diversity."
373

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2008 16:44:18
#404 Jwil,

Aye in 1603 wars with England stopped, until 1639 and then kept going on and off pretty much up until Culloden another century later by which time we'd taken to calling England Great Britain, and vice versa.
374

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 17/02/2008 16:51:41
I wouldn't say that there was anti-Scottishness in England, at least not against individual Scottish people. But it is true that there is growing resentment that Scottish Ministers in the UK government [Brown, Darling etc] are busy telling us English that we should lump things that their own constituents would tell them to go poke themselves with. University Tuition Fees is one example - English students will find themselves around £45,000 in debt at the end of their degree. Personal care is another. Us English aren't against the Scots spending their money how they like, but we're fed up of the Scottish Labour Party telling us that what's good enough for us isn't good enough for them
375

Thistledhu,

Fife 17/02/2008 16:57:02
Pax Vobiscum you cleary havent re read or understood or tried to understand my posts!!! a closed mind worst type of discrimination there is.

No excuse dont need one when there is the likes of you with holy than thou attitudes.

once again we have nothing to be ashamed off we are a very tolerant people in the main in fact more so than many of our neighbors.
376

Charles1234,

17/02/2008 16:57:11
Mikey said "Isn't it strange how the majority of unionists (and morons) on this thread waffle on about anti English sentiment fostered by the SNP but fail to produce one iota of evidence?"

Personally I think there is too much anti-Extra Terrestrialism about.

But for the sake of Ayrshire Scot?™, Insomniac, Rulesbutnotrulers and Media 1 I'd like to hear from what evidence they have of SNP anti-Englishness?

You know facts instead of the usual smears with no evidence.

Be a bit funny since two SNP MSPs are English and several others were born there or have English relatives.

Maybe you could email them and ask:

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/membersPages/ian_mckee/index.htm

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/membersPages/nigel_don/index.htm

Be nice to read your replies from them, If not I tale it the rest of us can then assume that you are just making it up.

In the meantime here's George Foulkes being embarrased by the good English folk of Edinburgh as he goes off on one:

http://www.stv.tv/content/news/Politics_NEW/display.html?id=opencms:/news/politics/First_Minister_embroiled_in_anti_2007090

Enjoy!

Nikostratos
377

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2008 17:05:55
#408 Richard M

>>>we're fed up of the Scottish Labour Party telling us that what's good enough for us isn't good enough for them<<<

Simple solutions:
a)Stop voting for them.
b)Write to your prospective MP that you want the same as the Scots.

If 35 million or so English voters did the same, no more problem.

You don't ask-you don't get.
378

Bzzzz1314,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 17:11:58
Exactly..
Labour was voted in by who?
379

Thistledhu,

17/02/2008 17:13:00
politicly motivated speech by the moderator or another gaff by a cleric who should stick to weddings christenings and funerals and let us in the real world get on with it?
380

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 17/02/2008 17:15:26
Interesting... The head of the kirk lecturing the common people about sectarianism! After centuries of religious persecution by competing Ayatohllas, Popes, Moderators, etc and today... turmoil and terror amid world wide religious strife. The sooner we can have an independent, secular Scottish Republic the better!

Perhaps our gentle moderator has forgotten that she is the subject (not citizen) of a monarchy, whose very presence and future is based on religious discrimination. Perhaps a scathing article on this subject during her address might have been worthy of her intellect and conscience.
381

Senga Jean,

Scotland 17/02/2008 17:22:48
I love everybody in the world. AND I still want Scotland to be Independent. It is long overdue and is a needless irritation waiting.
382

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 17/02/2008 17:23:46
As I stated at my posting @335:

You Scots are ALWAYS complaining and moaning and groaning about this, that and the other thing.

What if the English threw you off your lands centuries ago and have treated your like s*ite ever since.

GET OVER IT! Have a few wee small drams or 20 and all will be tranquil and calm in fractious Scotland.
383

Jambo Number 1,

17/02/2008 17:28:23
#418

Aye, naebody bit that time either troll.
384

Esther. Mexico.,

Edmonton 17/02/2008 17:30:41
Every so often this same old discussion turns up.

It's not until you live in a foreign country with a drastically different culture and political philosophy that you realize how much more you have in common with your fellow Brits... be they Scots/English/Irish/Welsh .

The perceived differences fade to insignificance, you simply see yourself as Brits living in a different culture.
385

Esther. Mexico.,

Mexico. 17/02/2008 17:32:28
Every so often this same old discussion turns up.

It's not until you live in a foreign country with a drastically different culture and political philosophy that you realize how much more you have in common with your fellow Brits... be they Scots/English/Irish/Welsh .

The perceived differences fade to insignificance, you simply see yourself as Brits living in a different culture.
386

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/02/2008 17:33:55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTLwiccIOxI

I was saving this one for the Scotsman but what the L.

Just got an e-mail from my German ex wife. She was saying that they don't like the Germans in Amsterdam. What I noticed about Amsterdam was they could all swith between Dutch, German and English just like that.

However, whenever I made a remark likening Dutch as a language to German as a language they did fire straight back (knowing I was Scots) with a remark which inferred I was English. It's the young folks who are so good at this.

So, perhaps the good Moderator should raise her eyes well above the lectern and consider every country's relationship with it's neighbours. Hope she told the English to stop calling the French "Frogs".

387

Jim M Glasgow,

17/02/2008 17:43:49
Have I missed a recent bout of house burning and anti-English riots lately? Or even the sectarian equivalent thereof.

For the latest survey on bigotry has shown that it is Muslims who are the target of increasing intolerance:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7138538.stm

And Scottish Executive figures from the 15 months to September 2004 show there were 450 reports to the procurator fiscal for sectarian crime compared to 43,678 complaints of domestic violence and 3,856 racist incidents.

Anti-Englishness is something to be condemned but to raise it above other forms of intolerance and violence shows a lack of focus.

And it's hardly the issue to get bums on pews back in the Kirk as the figures in today's show Scootland has the greatest number of non-religious people and a lower non-CofE Christian figure than England and Wales has a CofE figure.
388

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17/02/2008 17:48:20
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Reason:
389

,

17/02/2008 17:49:00
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Reason:
390

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 17:56:37
What Sheilagh Kesting meant was that under Sharia Law we would all love each other - or else!
391

Splashie,

17/02/2008 17:59:18
427.428 - mank ming
392

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:00:23
My first post - a satirical mysogynistic little piece based on Biblical teaching has been removed. Nae sense ae humour some folks - aye!
393

Splashie,

17/02/2008 18:00:41
427, 428 - mank spanker
394

Ffion,

capital 17/02/2008 18:01:07
Most so called English people aren't really 'English'as in some kind of pure bred race-pre industrial england had a pop of about 3 mil while scotland had 1 mil - most 'English' people esp in industrial cities are of immigrant (whites esp Irish) decent and can't understand the antipathy that's directed towards them and the labelling-England is Scotland's biggest market for tourism and industry don't spoil it. Why do we always have to hate somebody?
395

Splashie,

17/02/2008 18:01:36
427, 428 - manky poos
396

"Scotty",

Usa 17/02/2008 18:02:22
Numbers 3, 4, 22 & 71 - - - spot on.
397

Splashie,

17/02/2008 18:02:26
434 - we dont and shouldnt. racism in all forms is vile.
398

Fairfax,

17/02/2008 18:05:53
Jwil (404): "The English still treated the Scots as foreigners, and heavy duties were levied on Scottish goods coming into England. "

The Scots were foreigners: sharing James VI/I as king did not create a unified state. As I recall, Scotland also levied heavy duties on English good coming into Scotland as this time.

"The Navigation Acts were also a heavy blow to Scottish trade. Wales, and at first Ireland were included with England, but Scotland was left outside like France or Holland."

Scotland was a foreign nation at the time of the Navigation Acts; Wales and Ireland had been components of the English Empire for several centuries. Why should England have treated Scotland as anything but a foreign nation simply because the two countries shared a king?
399

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:06:31
Scotland is a racist country! We love the horses and the dogs - what's wrong with an honest flutter?
400

Media 1,

cape town 17/02/2008 18:10:41
bzzz 1314

Nonsense, are you trying to tell me that there is no anti English sentiment in Scotland?
PLEASE tell me that there is no anti English sentiment, this I need to hear.
401

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:11:21
Rule Britannia

When Britain first at Heaven's command,
Arose from out the azure main,
This was the charter, the charter of the land,
And guardian Angels sung this strain,

Chorus
Rule, Britannia, Britannia rule the waves,
Britons never will be slaves!

The Nations (not so blest as thee)
Must in their turns to Tyrants fall,
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.

Chorus

Still more majestick shalt thou rise,
More dreadful from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies,
Serves but to root thy native oak.

Chorus

Thee, haughty Tyrants ne'er shall tame:
All their attempts to bend thee down,
Will but arouze thy gen'rous flame,
But work their woe, and thy renown.

Chorus

To thee belongs the rural reign,
Thy cities shall with commerce shine;
All thine shall be the subject Main,
And ev'ry shore it circles thine.

Chorus

The Muses still with Freedom found,
Shall to thy happy coasts repair; Blest Isle!
With matchless beauty crown'd,
And manly hearts to guide the Fair.

402

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:13:51
There is NO anti-english sentiment in Scotland. We love the English.

Oh! Darling, please believe me
I'll never do you no harm
Believe me when I tell you
I'll never do you no harm
Oh! Darling, if you leave me
I'll never make it alone
Believe me when I beg you
Don't ever leave me alone
(chorus)
When you told me you
didn't need me anymore
[ Lyrics found at www.mp3lyrics.org/s9G ]
Well you know I nearly
broke down and cried
When you told me you
didn't need me anymore
Well you know I nearly
broke down and died
Oh! Darling, if you leave me
I'll never make it alone
Believe me when I tell you
I'll never do you no harm
(repeat chorus)
Oh! Darling, please believe me
I'll never let you down
Believe me when I tell you
I'll never do you no harm
403

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:18:03
443 - Aye!
404

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:21:01
Mahatma Ghandi on Nationalism:

Our nationalism can be no peril to other nations in as much as we will exploit none, just as we will allow none to exploit us. Through Swaraj we will serve the whole world. (YI, 16-4-1931, p. 79)

For me patriotism is the same as humanity. I am patriotic because I am human and humane. If is not exclusive, I will not hurt England or Germany to serve India. Imperialism has no place in my scheme of life. The law of a patriot is not different from that of the patriarch. And a patriot is so much the less patriot if he is a Luke-warm humanitarian. There is no conflict between private and political law.
(YI, 16-3-1921, p. 81)

It is impossible for one to be internationalist without being a nationalist. Internationalism is possible only when nationalism becomes a fact, i.e., when peoples belonging to different countries have organized themselves and are able to act as one man. It is not nationalism that is evil, it is the narrowness, selfishness, exclusiveness which is the bane of modern nations which is evil. Each wants to profit at the expense of, and rise on the ruin of, the other. Indian nationalism has struck a different path. It wants to organize itself or to find full self-expression for the benefit and service of humanity at large… God having cast my lot in the midst of the people of India, I should be untrue to my Maker if I failed to serve them. If I do not know how to serve them I shall never know how to serve humanity. And I cannot possibly go wrong so long as I do not harm other nations in the act of serving my county. (YI, 18-6-1925, p. 211)
405

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 18:23:47

G'day An Beal Bacht!
406

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:24:21
447 - Are you saying you're a "Proddy Dog"?
407

Splashie,

17/02/2008 18:24:30
448. Hi Dunnie

Decoder sandals on
408

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:25:12
This thread just went back in the bog!!!
409

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 18:29:09

Will have to look at code and log book wrt "sandals". However, since your transmission has been received your decoder ring is still operational.

451 - ABB - Now, now, be civil. I offered no offence but just a greeting.
410

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:30:05
454 - Thank you for the clarification!
411

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:35:44
Sheilagh Kesting's Prayer

Lord, bless Thy chosen in this place,
For here Thou has a chosen race!
But God confound their stubborn face,
An blast their name,
Wha bring Thy elders to disgrace
An open shame.
412

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 18:36:38
Hi Dunnie, Remember the plunge pool?
413

Splashie,

17/02/2008 18:37:52
455. Dunnie, is me. Me had a spat the first time you posted, and we chatted about your daughters hols...

Anyway, the MacKees have a privare chat room... Meths and Conan and Marinka all there. We would like to invite you. Conan will post instructions re NCDF and codes
414

nonperson,

17/02/2008 18:40:55
#456

400 has gone! what are you on about?
415

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 17/02/2008 18:41:47
419 Jambo

I am NOT a "troll" as you so elegantly put it, you disreputable numptie.

I am much loved and respected in these forums even if I do get into some heated "discussions" with other posters.

This is a DEMOCRATIC place to voice opinions so I will opine to you, foo;: Drag your knuckles to your cave, you drooling troglodyte and let INTELLIGENT people post. You are taking up valuable space by your mindless meanderings that pass for sane thought.
416

Dunnie,

17/02/2008 18:41:55


461 and 462 -

Whohoo! The old gang is back! Wonderful to hear from you both!

For once, I will await instructions.

Is Meths still our intrepid agent in Spain posing as salesman (read consumer) for Licor 43?

Best regards, Dunnie.
417

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 18:41:58
Dunnie, post an email address there and your decoder ring will be in the post.
418

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 18:43:20
Ah love the ...Ah love the ... Ah l l l love the Eng g g g lish!
419

MichScot,

USA 17/02/2008 18:43:41
There is so much that is PC today that people can't say anything because of that which is perceived to be behind the words.

There IS a line to be drawn; however, today's PC attitudes have led to everyone having a chip on his shoulder. Everyone is ready to fight over the slightest perceived injustice, and part of this is because there is no way to air a difference of opinion without being condemned for it.

This is not free speech. Nor is a difference of opinion necessarily hate speech.

The Christian concept of putting the best construction on everything--including the things we don't like--would give people a more charitable way of thinking about what may have been said AND about who said it.

That said, some things are definitely off-limits, and most o