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Military presence at Edinburgh Castle put in doubt

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Published Date: 01 November 2009
THE army's presence at Edinburgh Castle is to be reviewed amid growing concerns about Scotland's declining military prowess, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.
Historic Scotland, which owns the castle, will meet senior officers next month to discuss scaling down the garrison that has been the most potent symbol of the British Army in Scotland for centuries.

Confidential documents have revealed that the government's heritage agency is examining the role of the castle, which serves as the HQ for the Royal Regiment of Scotland, arguing its main priority should be as a tourist attraction.

The documents, obtained by Scotland on Sunday under Freedom of Information legislation, will fuel speculation that an imminent re-structuring of the army in Scotland could result in troops leaving the ancient fortress, which has been an active base since 1745.

Senior officers and Historic Scotland representatives will convene an Edinburgh Castle strategy working group on 17 December to look at the future of the castle, which houses around 40 soldiers at Brigade Headquarters, the Officers' Mess and a Royal Military Police detachment.

They will be joined by representatives of the Scottish National War Memorial, the Scots Dragoon Guards Museum and the Royal Scots Museum, who also share the home of the world famous Edinburgh Military Tattoo. A letter from Peter Bromley, Historic Scotland's director of Properties in Care, to officers said the castle's military presence appeared to be diminishing.

He also underlined the importance of the castle as a tourist destination.

The army itself has acknowledged that fewer troops are being stationed at the castle. An e-mail from a senior officer thanked Historic Scotland for suggesting "some areas where we could develop a common understanding".

Well-informed reports have suggested that the two Scottish-based brigades in 2 Division of the Army – 51 Brigade at Stirling and 52 Brigade, divided between Redford Barracks and Edinburgh Castle – will be reduced to one.

The divisional HQ, at Craigiehall in Edinburgh, will be abandoned. The Stirling-based brigade is expected to move to Redford, with 52 Brigade disappearing.

The pending reorganisation was said to have been a factor behind the high-profile resignation of Major General Andrew Mackay, the head of the Armed Forces in Scotland, Northern Ireland and northern England as well as the Governor of Edinburgh Castle.

The restructuring has even led to suggestions that the complete withdrawal of troops from the castle may be considered.

"That is something I would not wish to see, having had all my army career at the castle," said Brigadier Mel Jameson, the former producer of the Edinburgh Military Tattoo. "The castle has been the heartbeat of the regiments in Scotland. It is a living castle."




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1

Fifi la Bonbon,

01/11/2009 00:14:58
Stupid idea. The new army boss is a career PR man, but he's making a stupid error like this in his first few weeks in the job.
2

Thistledhu,

01/11/2009 00:30:09
The scotsman has made a factual error, Historic scotland do not own Edinburgh castle, The Mod do.

Historic Scotland in return for the revenue the castle creates for them maintians the structure of the castle

If the Scotsman/Tom Peterkin has got this basic fact wrong what legitimacy can we give to this article.

3

MadJockMacMad,

Edinburgh 01/11/2009 00:52:03
What a lot of nonsense this story is. This is a story about the possible relocation offices nothing more nothing less. The soldiers in question are admin staff and have no official function at the Castle anyway. Their office just happens to be located there.
Perhaps they could lower their Union Rag when they leave and we can have a Saltire raised where it belongs
4

walter,

01/11/2009 00:52:20
Well the Nats will be happy about this.
If the British army are not based at the castle then the Union flag will not fly there and they have wanted that torn down for a long time now.
5

walter,

01/11/2009 00:53:36
#3
Just proved the point.
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2009 01:16:50

I doubt 'bin laden' has much interest in Edinburgh Castle, and the English think that we all wear Kilts, in 1745 things were soo much different, but be realistic we live in the year MMIX.

7

brian mcc,

Gilmore 01/11/2009 01:36:22
A symbol of victory in 1745.
264 years claimed by a transient.
No rent has been rendered to the original owners.

Open all windows and doors so as the ghosts will take to the winds.
8

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2009 02:17:04

~8.
brian,

Good meaningful comment.



9

WeeGirlie,

01/11/2009 02:52:41
Scots troops following separation would be needed for border security at Gretna and for subdueing the Shetlanders who have lots of oil. Ironic.

I wonder how many would stay to shine buckles and do sentry duty and how many would transfer to one of the regiments in the remaining UK army to get some action (why they joined in the first place).

From what I have learned, many favour the latter.
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/11/2009 03:06:29

~10.
WeeGirlie,

Yet again!,,Good comment, it shows one of thought.




11

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 01/11/2009 05:47:35
Border security? are we progressing to the Middle Ages? This credit crunch has certainly shaken up some of the cosy' status quo' what with the revelation that MSP 's are to cease to employ their wives and families. A military presence in 'the Castle' seems ok to me. Is it all about money? It usually comes down to the bottom line. It would be nice to see the Saltire flying on the Castle. But now we are gettting into difficult territory, with Union Jacks etc. 30 th November St Andrews Day coming up, are we all going to celebrate? Having almost made it through the credit crunch of 2009.....quite a year. The 'crash' of 2009. The Depression of the thirties..... BNP politicians surfacing down south, my old man's church in Blackhall, Edinburgh turning into Edinburgh's West End Mosque, a piece of information I gleaned from a University newspaper last week.....Too much political correctness methinks. Perhaps they'd better keep that Military presence just where it is.
12

Traquìr,

Alba 01/11/2009 07:29:11
Looks like the Union dividends continue to mount up. That said the loss of a few jobs from the British occupation of Edinburgh castle is a drop in the bucket compared to the cull on defense jobs imposed by the British over the last few years.

From the MODs official figures of direct employment Scotland has seen a decrease of 30% since 2002 down from 10,000 to 7,000. Interestingly in the same period England has seen their direct defense jobs go up 7% from 118,000 to 126,000.

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2008/c1/table111.html

It would appear that the MOD is focused on other things like creation of votes (oops jobs) in England and also apparently picking over 40% of target sites in the UK for nuclear waster dumping that are in Scotland.

"A secret shortlist of a dozen sites across the UK where the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is thinking of dumping dangerous radioactive waste from defunct nuclear submarines can be revealed today by the Sunday Herald.

As many as five of the sites under consideration – for storing up to 500 cubic metres of toxic scrap from 27 submarines – are in Scotland"

http://www.heraldscotland.com:80/news/transport-environment/revealed-where-the-mod-wants-to-dump-its-radioactive-waste-1.929636

One silver lining as mentioned already though is a for once positive dividend in that the sun will finally set on the occupying flag of the British flying over our capital city.


13

WeeIncey,

Longniddry 01/11/2009 07:43:29
It's always nice when you visit a castle and, instead of being a dead shell that is a monument to the past, it is still being used, combining the past and the present. I always loved the fact that Edin castle was not dead and I don't want it to die now. It seems particularly pertinent to have a military presence there since it is the stage for the military tattoo.
14

cabrach loon,

inverness 01/11/2009 08:01:49
Well said #14, a military presence should remain, and an independent Scotland should still have armed forces as per Ireland etc.
15

yockel,

01/11/2009 08:22:09
"amid growing concerns about Scotland's declining military prowess," what?

Does this mean the indigenous population is unlikely to revolt so they are safe to end the occupation?
16

Road to the isles,

01/11/2009 08:27:59
Oh dear Mr Peterkin. Go look up the meaning of the word prowess. I think you'll find your headline is a load of cobblers.
17

mr broon,

Edinburgh 01/11/2009 08:31:28
After the recent amalgamation of the Scottish Regiments, and proposals to restructure the British Army in Scotland, closing some bases, and leaving a token garrison at Edinburgh Castle, are just another example of the UK's declining economic and military power.

Similar proposals to downsize elsewhere in the UK are also being considered.
18

,

01/11/2009 08:48:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
19

,

01/11/2009 08:49:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

Pilrig.,

Livingston 01/11/2009 09:19:42
10, aye the perils o' being a small nation, such as Luxemburg, Norway, Switzerland etc: who needs a high standard of livin' when we can be the world's polisman ?
21

,

01/11/2009 09:21:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Kenny A,

01/11/2009 09:31:04
I never thought I would say it, but im glad I am not a soldier anymore.

Bad step being taken here.
23

Ross,

Athens 01/11/2009 09:36:52
Seems like a good idea to me from the SNP.

You know the The Scotsman is really clutching at straws looking for a story of negativity about the SNP.
The efforts of this paper is pathetic and feeble.
24

Prys,

Edinburgh 01/11/2009 09:51:47
Tourism is a bigger problem going up to the Castle - traffic vs people on Castle Hill and too much tartan tat nearby.
25

Mcsnagpile,

01/11/2009 10:29:07
It is time that all the military padding up and down was got rid of. Get the military out -- and get all the flags out. We need a new venue. A heart to our international festival of arts not based on out dated Tattoo type military menageries. I am glad to say we are no longer the policeman of the world (thank goodness) despite what the politicians think. Send all this Victoriana to where it belongs.
Scottish troops are to protect Scottish interests not entertainment the tourists.
26

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 01/11/2009 11:18:35
The British Army could not possibly be worse administered than it is. So a flit to a purpose built unit in Newtonmore Central is the way to go. Go to where there are real tradesmen that can BUILD on time, to spec, to standard.

The AAF would convert the auld relic atop The High Street to the James Clerk Maxwell Institute for Plasa Physics since we employ Astronomers and Graduate Electrical Engineers, not TV personalities. We have world class Slaters, Carpenters, Masons too.

Thus we would gain understanding of our Electric Universe (phEU) and allow world wide free access except to those IGNORANT OF GEOMETRY.
27

Two Gun Eck,

PALM BEACH FL 01/11/2009 11:27:45
#2 Incorrect:

In 1905, responsibility for the castle was transferred from the War Office to the Office of Works, although the garrison remained until 1923, when the troops moved to Redford Barracks in south-west Edinburgh. The castle again became a prison during the First World War, when "Red Clydesider" David Kirkwood was confined here, and during the Second World War, when it housed German Luftwaffe pilots. The position of Governor of Edinburgh Castle, which had been vacant since 1876, was revived in 1935 as an honorary title for the General Officer Commanding in Scotland, the first holder being Lieutenant-General Sir Archibald Cameron of Lochiel. The castle passed into the care of Historic Scotland when it was established in 1991, and is a Scheduled Ancient Monument. The buildings and structures of the castle are further protected by 24 separate listings, including 13 at category A, the highest level of protection for a historic building in Scotland.
28

Two Gun Eck,

PALM BEACH FL 01/11/2009 11:37:58
It is entirely appropriate at this time that all British miltary presence be removed from the Castle, even the Tatoo is in the wrong place. The scaffolding and structures put up in the summer for that are an affront to decency and good taste.

The Castle needs to be secured and protected as a monument to the many souls who perished within it's walls to maintain the British imperial hold on Scotland. The Butchers Apron should be gone for ever from it's flagpoles, to be replaced by the Saltire the flag of Scottish Independence and freedom.

At this time in our history as Scotland moves peacefully to Independence and Freedom, we have no need of military symbols to boast about our power. Our power is vested in the people of Scotland as enshrined in The Declaration of Arbroath. Scotland will be an example to the world of how a nation can live in peace and harmony with it's neighbours without the need to dominate them. Big phallic shiny nuclear missiles and triumpalism have no place in that.

However let no one forget that we will if provoked and invaded prevail as we have always done.
29

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 01/11/2009 11:49:48
I have good news for you all and that is all the armed forces and their families are leaving scotland and all bases here will be closed so there will be more than 7000 direct jobs going a lot of other jobs will go in supply from local businesses as well and there will be a significant drop in the economic well being of the areas concerned and as a foot note the carrier contracts are to be shelved next year for review in 2025 so this paper has wriiten a correct story
30

Jings MacCrivvens,

01/11/2009 11:56:53
Goodee! I hope that the exit of the British Army is celebrated by a ceremonial burning of that official rag, the Butcher's Apron which flutters above the castle.
31

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 01/11/2009 11:57:41
#29 Eck

You'll do a lot of defending us from oppression from Florida. Just what is it about leaving the country you profess to love so much that makes you plastic Jocks such radges? Guilt?


32

Rob Royston,

Africa 01/11/2009 12:10:45
#30

Good news, right enough. When are you and your mates going home. You will be taking your own jobs with you, so no loss to the rest of us, in any case.
33

Media for one,

01/11/2009 12:16:43
Does anyone actually care?
It's an admin building anyway, only the permimeter walls and the main entrance are castle like! Why not hire a security company to keep an eye open?
34

WeeGirlie,

01/11/2009 12:18:02
-31

This is the real SNP thoughts.

So much for being a proud Scot - hundreds of thousands of REAL Scots, not pretendy ones like you - have fought and died uner the Union Jack so wasters like you can denigrate their memory with slurs.

This exposes the lie about SNP support for the wellbeing of Scots soldiers.....

35

The Answer,

Glasgow 01/11/2009 12:28:11

#29 Two Gun Eck,PALM BEACH FL 01/11/2009 11:37:58

"we have no need of military symbols to boast about our power"

So need for the Tattoo?

and what "power" are you talking about?

maybe the power of whisky and beating the hell out of your women folk?
36

Brianwci,

01/11/2009 12:35:33
#4. My thoughts entirely. I have no problem with the army being in the Castle only that a non Scottish flag flies over Scotland's No1 tourist attraction.

If the army going allows the Saltire to be raised above the Castle there would be an audible cheer throughout Scotland.
37

Gerry McGuigan,

DUNDEE 01/11/2009 12:45:55
Lord George Robertson says that the idea of Scotland having its own independent armed forces is "The stupidist thing I have ever heard". This is a man who once, as a member of the SNP, advocated just that????
38

Lys Alf,

Scotland 01/11/2009 12:57:36
After independence we might need to defend our freedom agaist the old enemy again. Keep the Castle a military fortification - just in case!
39

Thistledhu,

01/11/2009 13:08:57
29 well aware of that as i said in #2 yes historic scotland maintain and protect the castle however it is still owned by the MOD THAT IS A FACT.

A similer set up is also in place at fort george
40

John Rae,

01/11/2009 13:10:24
WeeGirlie, 01/11/2009 12:18:02

I thought REAL Scots read the Record?
41

WeeGirlie,

01/11/2009 13:32:43
No, real Scots think for themselves.
42

WeeGirlie,

01/11/2009 13:36:47
-38

Try Angus Robertson's thoughts on defence, renting rooms at British embassies, interest rates set by the BoE, the Monarchy, should ever separation come.

Or what about, Free by '93 or Independence - in Europe, no less!!
43

WeeGirlie,

Scotland 01/11/2009 13:40:02
-38

Forgot, anti-Nato stance while Future English (pro-Nato) military bases would operate in Scotland. You couldn't make this stuff up.

And far better than George Foulkes.
44

westview,

peace loving Scotland. 01/11/2009 14:11:48
The Scots are peacefull ,unlike the Scandinavians or Anglo -Saxons etc. We have not invaded or declared war on many other nations. Perhaps just one or two? So turn the military show castles into turist traps ,full time and display our mercy and medical,science and exploration prowess awards there above the crown jewels.
45

The ex Pat,

01/11/2009 14:52:42
No 45,

Peaceful? since when?
46

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks Californiacation 01/11/2009 15:40:33
# 37 Is not Loch Ness Scotlands most important tourist attraction? I wonder where the people on this post come from, such ridiculous comments. I am Scottish through and through yet I served in the British army. NOT the English Army. The flag of Britain is the UNION flag incorporating our Scottish flag. As for the comments that a spokesman is "arguing that the main purpose of the Castle should be as a tourist attraction" What else is it. As for the troops there, they are Scottish and they are part of the Tourist draw, they add reality to the structure. I wonder if the same people are going to Review the purpose of Horse Guards Parade on Whitehall, there the mounted Soldiers (some scottish) and their mounts, are more of a draw than the structure. It seems that this site has been hijacked by a bunch of discontents.
47

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/11/2009 16:04:16
what does the army do at Edinburgh Castle except light a little cannon every now and again?
48

Alba Abú,

01/11/2009 16:12:09
I believe that Scotland is the only country in Europe without an army.We depend on another country, England, to organise us. Anyway, anyone who has "done the tourist tour" of Edinburgh castle will know that Scotland's military history is never discussed. It is the English organised British army history which is the main topic.

Its good enough for us!
49

Alba Abú,

01/11/2009 16:16:00
#47 B.B.
Just get used to it,you are part of England and the English flag is the flag seen over Edinburgh castle and you were a member of the English army. At least thats what it is known as in most countries throughout the world.

Sad,but true.
50

Alba Abú,

01/11/2009 16:18:26
Why cant we see our own flag, the Saltire, flutter over the castle. Why does it have to be the flag of England?
51

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 01/11/2009 16:52:53
Because the top people cannot agree. A very sensitive subject. Alex and Gordon don't see eye to eye. 'Little joke there folks ' But the SNP have brought out this great new TV series on Scottish history for ALL the kids to learn about. It's all in your computer now. So no more complaining, Alex has it all sorted. So there. Just tap in any question. Saltire flags? no problem. Wars of Independence? no problem. Highland Clearances? Same again. Desperate journeys? Mary Queen of Scots? You get my drift. 20 years fromm now there will be a whole new generation of INFORMED Scots, and the fluttering Saltire problem will be a distant memory.
52

Western Gael,

01/11/2009 17:15:55
Much ado about nothing. Should Labour manage a win in the next elections, the only way they can afford all their electoral promises will be to scrap the carriers, scrap Trident, and pay off a sizeable portion of the forces. Do the maths.
53

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 01/11/2009 17:20:31
Wee Girlie, Your certainly well named.. time to Grow up.
54

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 01/11/2009 18:17:30
Question for Thistledhu.

If the MoD own Edinburgh Castle when did they buy it and how much did they pay for it?
55

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 01/11/2009 18:52:54
-- Why not hire ia security company to keep an eye open?

Why not make it as cheap and taudry as possible, overlooking Princes Street with similar non aspirations?

Have Edinburgh people no pride in their City? In themselves?

A modern scottish army has no need, and every reason not to be based there.

Show some initiative, show some imagination about the future of the Castle.
56

Liberty Valance,

01/11/2009 19:09:43
#55
As long as we have subservient minded Scottish people like Thistledhu, we will always be involved in an uphill struggle to restore Scottish pride.

These people can never see themselves as anything more than servants of England.
57

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 01/11/2009 19:43:29
57, Liberty Valance. Edinburgh Castle, and Stirling Castle, were only put under the "care" of the British Army in 1707. The British Army was formed in 1707.

This "care" has now been transferred to Historic Scotland.

So there is no reason for the union flag to fly there apart from pc gone historically mad.
58

Two Gun Eck,

PALM BEACH FL 01/11/2009 20:31:00
30 daveserviceman,
32 Draco Was a Wimp,
35 WeeGirlie,
36 The Answer,

The CIA must be flooding Scotland with a bad batch of heroin just now; you guys need some medication, and serious counselling.

Fortunately I am one of these people you losers dream about, who having made his fortune in Scotland and the Gulf in the oil industry can now languish in the sun, and return to Scotland as and when I please. At 53 I am fit as a fiddle as I spend around 8 months of the year here in my villa. At the moment I employ three staff to service it and the pool. Life is a beach man, suck it up. My boat is berthed at the bottom of my garden, tomorrow we are of fishing of the Keys, what a life. Hemingway knew a thing or to about the good life, it is even better now.

Of to McKenna’s for supper, the best crayfish in town

59

livilion,

livingston 01/11/2009 20:43:31
What can Whitehall be thinking?
To vacate the HQ of the British Army in Scotland at a time of war leaves us wide open to invasion from the Taliban, Al Qaida and all those other religious extremist insurgents that Gordon Brown was warning us about only a couple of years ago at the Labour's Scottish Party Conference.

Has the terrorist threat receded to the point that we no longer require HM Forces to keep us safe in our beds?

Is it ok now to vote SNP?
60

Liberty Valance,

01/11/2009 21:11:35
#59 two bum eck.

And spend Sunday night on the thread, like the rest of us!

lol!
61

Liberty Valance,

01/11/2009 21:13:05
#60 liv. Good post !
You forgot to mention "the weapons of mass destruction".
62

Dunnie,

01/11/2009 21:30:07
The wee 'bravehearties" seem to bravely posting on this subject. None of them having been soldiers they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

What a lot of p*sh they spout!

Wee Two B*m F**k! Sure, you have a villa and staff and rather than tending to yer millions you post on the Hootsman? Awae wee eeejit.

45 - Westview, gets my vote for the most imbelicilic posting of the day.
63

LIBERTY BODICE,

COMING TO A TOON NEAR YOU 01/11/2009 21:30:57
#61 We know you spend your life on here saddo. Do not judge others by your dreichness and lack of a life.

This will give you food for thought as you while away the wee small hours:

The Colonial Elite
No colonial power in history ever ruled without the help of a local elite in the subjugation of its own people. The key to understanding their essential bridging function is that the colonial power cannot do it without them, and that once the colonial relationship is over, they are without exception despised by all sides – by both their own people and by the ex-governing power. They are usually remembered by the ex-colonial power as failed flunkies, and by the newly independent country as former collaborators in their own people’s subjugation.

For these reasons, this is the group that always fights hardest for the colonial arrangement and their colonial privileges to continue: they know full well that once independent comes, the game is up. They will become pariahs, despised by all, with no part to play in either the new domestic political scene or in future diplomatic relations between the ex-imperial power and its newly independent former colony. In summary: useless, washed up, redundant.
64

LIBERTY BODICE,

ROON THE BACK 01/11/2009 21:33:25
#63
Change your dealer dope head it's a bad one.
65

LIBERTY BODICE,

SHOOTING THE FUKCUPS BOOM BOOM 01/11/2009 21:35:08
That’s the problem with the Scottish Unionist media: they’ve forgotten how to think for themselves. Servitude and obsequious grovelling to London, combined with knee-jerk opposition to everything the Scottish Government does solves every problem.

What these SUKCUP oxygen-thieves don’t get is that fewer and fewer people are listening. If the answer to everything is simply ‘the nationalist Scottish Government is incompetent,’ people anticipate what you’re going to say before you open your mouth, compensate and work out what's happening for themselves.

It's not working any more.



Coming soon: the Federal UK Coalition of Unionist Patriots (FUKCUP).

66

Dunnie,

01/11/2009 21:36:46
59 - a wee bit early for supper isn't it- even by Floridian standards? Unless you are 83 not 53 as you claim. Then again why can't you get your staff to prepare dinner?

Poseur.
67

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:37:08
Scotland: The Last Jewel in the Crown

George Monbiot is a thinker with a global perspective I like to follow, and he recently wrote an excellent piece on the long-term reasons for the Britain’s mounting woes. In summary, his scathing theory is that empire-less Britain has run out of foreign peoples willing to be exploited.


“The current political crisis has little to do with the expenses scandal, still less to do with Gordon Brown’s leadership. It arises because our economic system can no longer extract wealth from other nations,” he says.


It’s a plausible hypothesis, both academically honest and one that is sure to make uncomfortable reading for many of those who proudly call themselves British. Many who consider themselves Scots rather than British might take issue with it too, not only with Monbiot’s assertion that the metropolis has run out of colonies, but with his conclusion that the United Kingdom is the final stage of its disintegration. They might argue that – with Scottish independence a real possibility – the UK’s demise still has further to go, and that what remains of London’s imperial structure is now squarely focused on asset-stripping Scotland of her oil revenues while it still can.
68

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:38:33
The question is, are they right? Has Scotland become little more than a colony for the Southeast of England? Surely, with her own parliament, any argument for Scotland being a colony should now be dead. So what evidence is there for this outlandish claim? As one might expect, their argument hinges on the London’s relentless extraction of Scottish oil and gas wealth and its repeated refusal to reinvest a penny of this windfall back in Scotland. (1) This is a fact whether one agrees with the policy or not, but is it enough to justify calling Scotland a colony?

Most counter-arguments to the argument that Scotland is a colony are poorly thought out and predictable. “What rubbish!” the Scottish Unionist defiantly retorts. He (it’s usually a ‘he’) will tell you how well Scotland’s economy did from the Union (eventually, anyway, after the forty years of ensuing economic stagnation), and how many Scots achieved positions of power in the imperial apparatus which, he will be at pains to point out, was most certainly NOT exclusively English.
69

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:39:29
Indeed, the Scottish Unionist’s hackles can always be relied upon to rise when an Englishman lazily cites the imperial achievements of England. If the British nationalist (giving the Scottish Unionist his proper name) knows his history, he will explain to the patriotic Englishman that Scotland was in fact on the ‘executive committee’ of the Empire, and remind him politely of imperial power-wielders such as Henry Dundas, key colonial governors like Australia’s Lachlan Macquarie, accomplished military leaders such as Colin Campbell, and great explorers like Alexander MacKenzie, James Bruce and David Livingstone. Desperate to prove his British credentials to his fellow Brit, he will no doubt remind the yawning Englishman of the Thin Red Line at Balaclava, of Colin Campbell’s relief of Lucknow, of the Highlanders who gave Wolfe his victory in Quebec, and of the Lowlanders and Highlanders facing Napoleon as one at Quatre Bras. “Sure,” the Englishman will reply, glancing at his watch. “That’s all very well, but as far as the rest of the world is concerned, they were fighting for England.” And he would be right.
70

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:40:35
Explorers, governors, missionaries, bureaucrats, merchants, soldiers: this is the glorious (if anachronistic and irrelevant) imperial history to which the Scottish Unionist clings in his denial of Scotland’s need to be a nation in her own right. Having felt some pride in this imperial history myself, it’s hard not to feel at least some sympathy for his predicament: emotionally – and logically – it must be difficult to proudly and patriotically boast to Englishmen and foreigners of Scotland's imperial record, only to deny in your next breath that this pride is in any way nationalistic. Something doesn’t add up.

It’s because it is the rhetoric of the servant.

Scottish nationalists (as opposed to British nationalists - it's a matter of identity, not legitimacy) take a different tack. If anything, they say, Scotland’s magnificent imperial history only proves how far we have fallen, and that Scotland has become a colony since the end of Empire. Some scholars go even further, arguing that – regardless of our leadership role and the personal success of individual Scots in the Empire – Scotland became a colony the day the Treaty of Union was signed. They point to the forced nature of what was an incorporating Union (2), the broad patriotic character of the 1715 Jacobite Rising – following as it did hot on the heels of the Union (3), the expendable nature of the Highland regiments (4), the brutal persecution of Scottish nationalist radicals like Thomas Muir (5), the financing of the Sutherland Clearances from English industrial profits (6), the excessive Scottish war dead throughout the imperial period – including almost a fifth of Britain’s death toll of World War One (7), and Churchill using English soldiers against Scottish strikers in Glasgow in 1919. (8)
71

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:42:08
All fair points, diehard Unionists will say, balanced by the success Scots enjoyed as equal partners in the Empire. Many Scots may have suffered – as did many of those who Scots helped subjugate (9) – but enterprising Scots did very well from the Empire too.

Perhaps. The role of Scots throughout the imperial period is a complex one, and your opinion on it is probably as much a reflection of your perceived national identity as of your politics, or your opinion of empires in general. That the Scots were enthusiastic participants in colonisation – of our own people as well as others – is undeniable. Let’s just say that there were many shameful aspects in the roles of Scots in the Empire, which may be balanced by philanthropic and benevolent roles played elsewhere. Time and healthy debate will tell.

The problem is that whereas during the imperial period there was a semblance of balance between gain and loss, benefit and detriment, coloniser and colonised, today we see only Scotland’s exploitation. In addition to:
72

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:43:02
A. The continuing grand larceny of £32billion in tax revenues every year from Scotland’s oil (10), we also see:

B. The pre-meditated, concerted and sustained campaign by the British Government to conceal the true scale of Scottish oil revenues from the Scottish people, using consolidated national tax revenues and the rendering of key government documents ‘Secret’, only recently unearthed by FOI requests. (11)

C. The continuing adversarial attempt to control Scotland via a colonial Governor-General acting as ‘Scottish Secretary’ – in spite of Scotland supposedly having her own government (12),

D. The relocation of ALL British nuclear submarines to Scottish waters near Glasgow (13) – rendering it the principal target in the event of any nuclear strike,

E. The blatant attempt at manipulation of Scottish election results (14),

F. The attempt to dump toxic waste from London’s Olympics in Scotland (15),

G. The seizure of £150 million of Scottish charity money for the 2012 London Olympics – despite Scotland needing the cash for its own 2014 Commonwealth Games (16),

H. The appropriation of Scottish sportsmen and women as British when they succeed – while Englishmen can proudly compete as Englishmen without criticism (17), and

I. The tight control of the Scotland’s print media to deliver an endless subliminal stream of confidence-sapping and contradictory lies about her being better off as part of Britain and her non-viability as an independent state. (18)

73

Dunnie,

01/11/2009 21:43:51

Liberty bodice - feel better?

Please spare us your amateurish and undergraduate tripe.

Yes, you are clearly roon the back and the bend.

However, enough of these schoolboy taunts.

Now back on your soapbox, and let's have more of Mel Gibson's views on society and Scottish history. There's not much in the way of comedy on the telly tonight.
74

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:44:03
Individually, each item may not in itself be sufficient to prove the point, but together they form a strong case that Scotland’s pocket-money parliament in Edinburgh has in fact changed little. Indeed, without any real power to defend the interests of Scotland and her people, it is largely symbolic. And try as they might, it is impossible for Scottish Unionists to blame any aspect of Scotland’s current economic woes on independence: any blame must lie squarely with the status quo, and our on-going membership of the United Kingdom. One well-timed announcement of a ‘saved’ defence contract does not a case for Union make. (19)

That’s why Monbiot is right when he connects the UK’s current troubles with the end of Empire. His only error is to see the process as over, and the lingering mini-Empire of the British state as the smallest unit of post-imperial disintegration. The reality is that the Empire is still alive and kicking, and that Britain’s decline still has one more step to go – the independence of Scotland.

75

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:45:13
References

(1) Tom Gordon, ‘Alex Salmond Fuels Flames of Oil Crisis,’ TimesOnline, June 1, 2008.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article4040115.ece?token=null&offset=0

Even the Calman Commission’s recent report recognised that 90% of British oil revenues belong to Scotland.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2009/06/calman

(2)The riots that occurred in 1707 in the streets of Scotland with English forces standing by at the border are testament to the forced nature of the Union (Magnus Magnusson, Scotland: The Story of a Nation, HarperCollins, London, 2000, p548), a fact which Scottish Unionists can only dismiss with bland statements such as ‘our leaders chose it.’ This is a disingenuous argument. If Scotland signed up for a voluntary union, then surely it is equally acceptable to leave it. And if she is part of a forced union, then why the Scottish Unionist pretence of friendly federalism? Which is it? If the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath was an assertion of the sovereignty of the Scottish people, then our leaders agreeing to the 1707 Act of Union was clearly a violation of this.
See Paul Henderson Scott’s excellent summary of the background to the Act in The Union of 1707: why and how?, The Saltire Society, Edinburgh, 2006.

(3) See Michael Lynch, Scotland: A New History, Pimlico, London, 1992, p328.
76

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:45:54
(4) As (later Major-General) James Wolfe wrote in his private letter to his friend William Rickson in June 1751:

“I should imagine that that two or three independent Highland companies might be of use; they are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and no great mischief if they fall. How can you better employ a secret enemy than by making his end conducive to the common good?”

This statement, as expressed by their eventual commander, clearly reveals the cold, expoitative calculation that lay behind the recruitment of Scottish Highland regiments into the British army post-Culloden, even though it was the Earl of Albemarle who was to eventually suggest the idea to William Pitt.
See Stephen Brumwell, Paths of Glory: The Life and Death of General James Wolfe, McGill-Queens University Press, Montreal, 2007, p123, 125
77

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:46:53
(5) For reading out a letter of support for Scottish independence from the United Irishmen, Thomas Muir was in 1793 given transportation for fourteen years to Botany Bay. In the letter, the United Irishmen rejoiced that ‘you do not consider yourselves as merged and melted down into another country, but that in this great national question you are still Scotland – the land where Buchanan wrote, and Fletcher spoke, and Wallace fought.’
See Kenneth R. Johnstone, ‘The First and Last British Convention,’ Romanticism, Edinburgh University Press, Vol. 13, No. 2, 2007, pages 104-105 & 114

(6) Some scholars argue that the first Duke of Sutherland in fact made a loss on the enormous personal investment he made in the destruction of Sutherland's Highland society, as if the failure of his financial venture somehow made him the victim.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/scotland/highland/article_6.shtml
78

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:49:04
(7) Murray G.H. Pittock, Scottish Nationality, Palgrave, New York, 2001, p103

(8) Some may say ‘so what?’, but can you imagine the English reaction to Scottish troops being used to quell political demonstrations on the streets of London, Leeds or Liverpool?
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyeve14.htm

(9) The Chinese, for example, suffered greatly from the opium trade, to which Scottish opium barons such as Sir James Matheson contributed significantly.
See Arthur Herman, The Scottish Enlightenment: The Scots’ Invention of the Modern World, HarperCollins, London, 2001, pages 342-3

(10) This uses an oil price of $60 a barrel, the price as of July, 2009. This is quite conservative, considering that just one year ago it reached $145/bbl.
http://www.nyse.tv/crude-oil-price-history.htm

(11) The best summary of this process is the recent BBC documentary Diomhair.
79

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:49:21
(12) Eddie Barnes, ‘Role of Scottish Secretary Will Survive Reshuffle,’ Scotsman, September 28, 2008.
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics/Role-of-Scottish-Secretary-will.4535883.jp

(13) On May 6, 2009, Bob Ainsworth, Armed Forced Minister, announced to the British Parliament that the entire nuclear submarine fleet would be based in Scotland by 2017.
http://www.banthebomb.org/ne/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1158&Itemid=95

(14) Angus MacLeod, ‘Election Shambles Verdict: the voters lost,’ TimesOnline, October 24, 2007.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2726440.ece

(15) http://apps.sepa.org.uk/disclosurelogs/pdf/F0130268%20released%20correspondence.pdf

(16) Eddie Barnes, ‘Olympics robs Scots of Lottery cash,’ Scotland on Sunday, November, 23, 2008.
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/londonolympics2012/Olympics-robs-Scots-of-Lottery.4722417.jp

(17) Joan MacAlpine, ‘British if you win, Scottish if you lose,’ TimesOnline, July 5, 2009.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6637179.ec
80

LIBERTY BODICE,

01/11/2009 21:51:14
Goodnight fith columists have a great shift.




























LOL!!!!!!!!!!
81

Dunnie,

01/11/2009 22:05:22
Fifth columnists?

I will have you know that I am the founder of the MacKee resistance movement which has waged war in pub and moor against the accursed MacVeeShee forces in Scotland.

If you know of any such fifth columnists, you are duty-bound to expose them. Only then will you even be considered to receive the MacKee agent's decoder ring.

Now be a good agent-in-waiting and remember your thermos and sandwich for your night shift.
82

Dunnie,

01/11/2009 22:07:57
By the way, Liberty Undergarment: please note correct spelling of fifth columnist.

Stupid boy/girl/TG or whatever.
83

Blue Tooner,

01/11/2009 22:22:33
So what's going to become of the Military Tattoo? Edinburgh could lose out on a lot of tourist action. For what it's worth, I'm not a big fan. I remember having to sit through it with my mum and dad on our old black and white tele. To be quite honest, massed military bands marching up and down a car park for three hours didn't do it for me. But, that show from Earls Court with the naval field gun race and all that stuff, now that was cool !
84

Dunnie,

01/11/2009 22:42:49
Blue Tooner.

Couldn't agree more wrt to Earl's Court.

However, don't know what Tattoo you attended but I have seen Paras rappelling down the Castle walls, Paras landing on the esplanade, motorcyclists jumping through walls of fire and drill squads doing amazing stuff - that is not to mention the pageantry and music - not all pipes and drums, may I add.
85

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

01/11/2009 23:50:18
#71 LIBERTY BODICE,

"It’s because it is the rhetoric of the servant."

I couldn't agree more, every time I listen to one of those "Proud British-Scots".I see the blacked up face of the actor Michael Bates giving a monologue as Rangi Ram from "It A'nt half Hot Mum"..."We British...".

Unsure of whether to view them with disbelief, ridicule, pity or contempt.
86

RealityChecker,

UK 02/11/2009 00:29:12
The MoD is underfunded and their present budget is under pressure.

So they're looking to save a few pennies - no military value in having a few soldiers based in the Castle other than PR. So PR is cut in preference to military capability. Also short of manpower.


87

mangrove jack,

02/11/2009 00:52:54
Alba Abu @ 51. Ive yet to see the English Flag of St George as the dominant flag at the castle.
All true Scots eagerly look forward to the Saltire replacing the flag of the union. We can achieve this without demeaning ourselves by distorting the facts and peddling untruths.
Pride in our great inheritence coupled with dignity and truth is the only way towards independence and universal respect.
88

,

02/11/2009 00:53:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
89

Dunnie,

02/11/2009 00:55:25
88 - well said.
90

Craig Buchanan,

Crawley 02/11/2009 01:17:51
"The pending reorganisation was said to have been a factor behind the high-profile resignation of Major General Andrew Mackay, the head of the Armed Forces in Scotland, Northern Ireland and northern England as well as the Governor of Edinburgh Castle."

God preserve us from half-cocked journos. Geeneral Mackay was not the "head of the Armed Forces in Scotland" etc. He was General Officer Commanding, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Northern England, which made him the head of the ARMY in Scotland. The Navy and the Air Force both have their own equivalent positions, neither of which answered to the General.
91

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks 02/11/2009 01:21:38
47, I do agree that the Scottish flag should be where ever the Union flag is flown. I have it flown in my own backyard. 83; as you know it is easy to make mistakes when posting so I think your criticism of Liberty is a little picky. She certainly seems to have done her homework!
92

Dunnie,

02/11/2009 01:28:32
Billy lad - Liberty Udergarment needs her knickers drawn up tighter - if that is possible.


My pedantry was only meant to twist her/his knickers and please don't say she has done her homework. That implies she has done it well and therefore has credibility>

No, that simply is not the case. Sorry, stupdi girl, back of the form and extra lessons.
93

westview,

02/11/2009 12:55:07
Why does the "British" navy have a great big english flag with only a wee union jack in the corner ,as its flag? Or is it realy the english navy,and its Tridents on the Clyde?
94

westview,

Paying for end of UK empire. 02/11/2009 15:48:58
Wrong again *63*, I have served in the military . They gave me a Sten gun and a durty big radio to lug about. So please do not shoot the messenger who is only pointing out that Scotland has not invaded or declaired war on many other nations . Unlike some of our neighbours. We should copy the Swiss. Same population as Scotland but with a lot fewer resources .They have a properly funded and equipped defence force. Proper shelters and reserves of supplies and do not go about invading other nations.
95

Dunnie,

02/11/2009 18:11:25
95 -

Scots as warriors were highly sought after as mercenaries. Think of them as Ghurkas in kilts. Traditionally, their leaders/kings/queens were too corrupt or incompetent to even stage a p*ss-up in a brewery though that did not stop them from staging invasions/rebellions that all resulted in utter chaos and ruin.

To say Scotland has a peaceful history is akin to saying Michael Jackson holds no interest to a clinical psychiatrist.

As to Switzerland - hulllloooooooooooooo! The Swiss have one of the largest arms industries in the world. Ever heard of Oerlikon?

96

Dunnie,

02/11/2009 18:20:44
95 - The Swiss don't need natural resources. They have been the centre of international financing for donkeys.

THEY ARE ONE OF THE MOST HEAVILY ARMED NATIONS - PER CAPITA - IN THE WORLD.

They are and have been the arsenal for the world.

Oh and yes, they do like trot their finely made watches, milk chocolate with Alpine scenses as a backdrop.
97

Dunnie,

02/11/2009 18:41:06
My apologies. Previous posting's last sentence should have read as follows : Oh and yes, they do like to trot out their finely made watches and milk chocolate with Alpine scenes as a backdrop.
98

Dubhglas,

Johannesburg 03/11/2009 09:24:03
Is this a case of De Javu?

In A.D.410, The Roman Legions were recalled from Britain to help defend Rome from invading barbarians.

Now 1600 years later in 2010, British legions are being recalled from Scotland to held defend England against Asian immigrants and terrrorists. HaHa!!
99

westview,

Desert called peace. 03/11/2009 11:23:48
Yes Donnie I have heard of Oerlikon .It developed guns from the original German design and even allows America to make them under licence. In fact I have worked on S.I.G. equipment. (Look it up). Your points do not detract from my point that Scotland has not had a history of invading and conquering other countries. Think of our military as a guard dog who can Guard our home or be hired out to guard the worlds scrap yards. Good dog. But some other countries dogs are rabid wild animals that in a civilised world would be controled ,not praised. Bad dogs. Just look at the countries that Britain ,for example, have been at war with and where a higher proportion of Scots have been killed , compared to those in south Britain. Perhaps the Swiss are wiser. They sell guns ,and not their young men,to the war mongers. And they do not need Trident to give them access to the big boys table.
100

Graeme M,

smithfield plains 26/11/2009 09:37:09
A bit of a worry right enough, practically leaving Scotland indefensive!...I mean who is at the back of this, I wonder?...Do you?...

 

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