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Landlords warn of licensing law threat to pubs

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Published Date: 28 June 2009
PUBS across Scotland are warning they may have to close their doors in two months' time amid claims that plans for new licensing laws have fallen into chaos.


Supermarkets say they also fear they may be unable to train up staff to cope with the new laws before they come into place on 1 September.

Every licensed store and pub in the country must comply with the new laws by September when the new Lic
ensing Act, made law by MSPs in 2005, comes into force.

The new laws mark the biggest change to Scotland's alcohol laws in 30 years. Supermarkets will be barred from selling drink before 10am and will be told to restrict alcohol to certain designated parts of the store.

The public will get new rights to challenge licences, putting pubs and clubs which cause problems in local communities under notice of closure.

But licensees are now warning that the preparations for the new act have become a bureaucratic nightmare.

Under the new legislation, licensees are required to have three pieces of paper before they can sell drink – a premises licence, a personal licence and a training certificate enabling them to inform staff on how to sell drink.

Many premises have met the deadline to get the various new licences but the body which represents pubs in Scotland says there is growing evidence that many are nowhere near getting their own premises ready for the change-over.

Paul Waterston, the chief executive of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association, said: "Without a doubt there will be some pubs that won't get this done in time. There is a lot of confusion out there because people think that if they've got a training certificate they are OK. That's not the case."

Waterston said that police chiefs have already said they will not allow any flexibility to pubs and clubs which have not got the necessary paperwork, meaning many may be forced to close temporarily while the red tape is sorted.

In the off-trade, stores insist they will be open for business come 1 September, but they fear that the delays in processing applications means they will not have enough staff authorised to sell drink.

Scotland on Sunday understands that Asda has sent 418 personal licence applications but, as of the end of last month, had only received 175 licences back. Sainsbury's meanwhile has made 360 applications but has only received 160 back.

The bigger stores, which must train as many as 10,000 staff before September, were hoping to have already carried out the work by now, but are still having to wait because they have not yet received personal licences from the local boards.

A spokesman for the Wine and Spirit Trade Association last night called on Scottish ministers to step in to resolve the crisis immediately.

He said: "Retailers are trying to comply with the new arrangements but delays by licensing boards threaten to prevent stores from having the trained staff in place to sell alcohol to customers. We urge ministers to step in and resolve these issues so that retailers can meet the 1 September deadline."

A spokeswoman for First Quench Retailing, which runs off-licences such as Wine Rack, Thresher and Haddows, added: "Like other retailers FQR is experiencing some delays in the granting of premises licences and more particularly personal licences in Scotland. If left unresolved, a backlog in the grant of personal licences would potentially have an effect in terms of our ability to train staff in the sale of alcohol, as required by the Act."

However, a Scottish Government spokesperson said: "Many members of the Trade have met the challenge of submitting their premises licences within the required deadlines. We are listening to the concerns raised but the onus is on the trade to get their personal licence applications submitted."





The full article contains 646 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 27 June 2009 10:08 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

Fifi la Bonbon,

27/06/2009 23:59:39
"Supermarkets say they also fear they may be unable to train up staff to cope with the new laws before they come into place on 1 September."


Right - welcome to the training course on getting ready for the new laws - you only have nine weeks to learn this, so you need to pay attention. First, you mustn't sell booze before 10am. Second, you mustn't sell booze except in this bit of the shop.

Boss, I don't understand! Are you saying you mustn't sell booze after 10pm? And you can only sell booze to 12 year olds?

Oh, oh - this is proving harder than we thought! I foresee chaos if we don't get it right!!!
2

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 02:16:37
It's not like they are being asked to organise a moon mission. The licensed trade has had four years to get their act together. The transitional period started in February last year. And there has been a huge amount of information and assistance made available. If any pub is not ready by September, they don't deserve to be in business.

3

Incandescent,

28/06/2009 04:12:11
#2 Electric Hermit

In this case I must, reluctantly, entirely agree with you.
4

Jock's Away,

Africa 28/06/2009 06:40:55
Fly on the wall in Holyrood.
MSP: Drink is a big problem, what can be done?
Civil servant: As Scots are hard to educate, you could bring in a new law, Minister.
MSP: Good Idea, we make the scapegoats, publicans and supermarkets responsible for control and staff training, then we can point to them when it fails.
Civil Servant: Uh training, isn't that the same as educating?
MSP: yes but we can't be to blamed!! Now go and look at the drugs problem, it is getting bigger and the boys in Helmand are getting wrestless. Juggle the A,B C, classes that should hold them until the elections are over.
A sad Scottish tale of is it!!
5

fife runner,

28/06/2009 07:43:37
it is like a lot of other things, people leave it until the last minute. Did they think it would go away? was 4 years not enough time?
6

letmein,

hinterland 28/06/2009 07:47:57
And what improvement are these new laws going to do to normal peoples lives.
7

drunken proffet,

Tassy 28/06/2009 08:33:53
I must agree with the previous posters. This legislation came in 2005, it appears to be quite fair, the pubs now a days do not have a snug, allow women to drink in the men's bar and are smoking free. Sorry guys, you lot are history, if you can find someone bothered to write it.
8

OLD GIN,

METHIL LEVEN 28/06/2009 10:00:22
THE NEW LAW SHOWS HOW OUT OF DATE THE SNP ARE.WE WERE ONCE GOING FORWARD NOW ITS TWO STEPS BACK. WHY CANT YOU DISPPLY WINE WITH CHEESE OR BEER WITH BURGERS.
I SHOP AT 8am NOW I CANT BUY MY DRINK WHEN SHOPPING.
JUST THINK HOW THE REST OF THE UK AND EUROPE ANE NOW LAUGHING AT US.
WHY MAKE 99.9% SUFFER FOR TO GET KENNY BROWNIE POINTS
9

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 10:06:08
8
OLD GIN

"THE NEW LAW SHOWS HOW OUT OF DATE THE SNP ARE."

The legislation was passed in 2005.

Why are you shouting?

10

bumpkin,

28/06/2009 10:08:32
get into plywood, its now the fastest selling item at b&q as all the pubs in scotland get boarded up.
they have been cash cows for exchequer for years, but they are now dying out from over taxation, and now overregulation.. not to mention the over zealous application of drink drive laws in remote areas.

A pub licence is now a poisoned chalice, only for fools or money launderers.
Scotland was famous for its pubs, but they will soon disappear.
11

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 10:13:32
10
bumpkin

You forgot to mention that the sky is falling.

12

soapy1,

28/06/2009 10:17:01
OH dear, still look on the bright side the pubs will close so you have nowhere to drink except on the streets or at home, the supermarkets could decide not to sell alcohol as it is too much trouble and besides they make a loss on it anyway, the off liceneses and corner shops may like the pubs become a thing of the past. There now all your social ills except illegal drugs, smokes and booze solved, nothing left to complain about job well done.

If that is what the Scots want then I am happy for you all. Just remember THE SCOTTISH ASSEMBLY DID THIS TO YOU NOT WESTMISTER!



13

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 10:26:43
12
soapy1

When you grow up you will perhaps learn that not every little change spells doom for the world.

14

,

28/06/2009 11:02:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

Euan,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 11:34:37
How on earth is not allowing supermarkets to sell alcohol before 10am going to be of any use whatsoever?? I just don't get it.

So if someone is setting off early doors for say T in the Park or popping down to a relative's house for a barbecue, they now can't stop off and buy a few beers before 10am?!

Eh?, why not?!

This is indeed a very odd and very strange new law.

What is happening to this country?




16

soapy1,

28/06/2009 11:48:06
Hermit, thank you for your response, when you actually have a genuine counter argument and not an ad hominen attack I promse I will seriously consider your point of view!
17

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 12:04:15
15
Euan

"How on earth is not allowing supermarkets to sell alcohol before 10am going to be of any use whatsoever?? I just don't get it."

It may have escaped your notice, but Scotland has a particularly acute problem of widespread alcohol abuse. While I totally agree that time restrictions alone are no more likely to be effective in addressing this issue than price restrictions alone, the point which seems to elude you is that these measure are not being implemented in isolation. They are part of a package of measures by which it is hoped to effect a cultural shift which will change the way alcohol is perceived and the way it is used.

Education is, as so often, the key to this process. But there is little point in telling children and young people that alcohol is potentially dangerous and should be treated seriously while the market is sending out very different and often contradictory messages.

Given the damage done to individuals and society by alcohol abuse, we should all be supporting the efforts of the Scottish Government to address the problem. Even if we are not entirely convinced of the efficacy of a specific measure.

18

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 12:26:00
16
soapy1

"Hermit, thank you for your response, when you actually have a genuine counter argument and not an ad hominen attack I promse I will seriously consider your point of view!"

When you present an argument, I will happily counter it.
19

Douglas,

Bathgate 28/06/2009 13:07:03
#10 Bumpkin: "not to mention the over zealous application of drink drive laws in remote areas". I'd be grateful if you could expand on that.

If those under employed layabouts at Holyrood think that this will make an iota of difference to those who use corner shops for their drug of choice before 10 am they need look no further than the under age jakies who still manage to get their fix despite "sweeping changes". All the 'please don't be offended if we ask your age because you look under 25' posters in the world will not stop local shop owners selling to their regulars at any hour of the day. After all, who's going to catch them in the act? The Greggs security guards, or police as we used to know them?
20

soapy1,

28/06/2009 13:19:05
Again thank you for your response, let me ask you this:

Do you believe that any lifestyle decisions made by every adult in the country should be removed by government because of a minority who will exist no matter what legislation is passed?

Do you believe that it is right to abdicate personal responsibility to government because a minority make bad decisions?

This is what you appear to be advocating, people will make wrong decisions they always have, they always will and no legislation can change that, only punish it.

Such legislation will lead to every decision being decided for us, what to eat, what to drink, say or do: Is this the kind of world you personally want to leave for your children and grandchildren?

Is being afraid to to eat drink and speak or make make even the simplest of decisions really what you want?

Would you agree that to not oppose the removal of personal responsibility, to not oppose the destruction of freedom to make your own decisions be an act of complete moral bankruptcy and cowardice?

Is there anyone at all who would not defend themselves against the removal of their individual right to live their lives according to their own beliefs or desires?
21

english charlie,

28/06/2009 13:36:57
Just like with smoking, new restrictions are being introduced for drinking. 'alcohol to certain designated parts of the store'. Next, alcohol will have to be kept under the counter.
22

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 13:47:03
21
english charlie

"Next, alcohol will have to be kept under the counter."

Why not try to deal with what is actually happening rather than what your febrile imagination tells might happen.

23

english charlie,

28/06/2009 14:09:43
#22 Hermit. So you don't believe that new restrictions on alcohol are being introduced and that there won't be any further restrictions?
24

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 14:47:02
23
english charlie

"So you don't believe that new restrictions on alcohol are being introduced and that there won't be any further restrictions?"

I cannot be answerable for what the voices in your head are telling you.

25

english charlie,

28/06/2009 14:51:54
24 Hermit. From that reply, I take it that you don't believe that there will be further restrictions on alcohol?
26

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 15:15:16
25
english charlie

"From that reply, I take it that you don't believe that there will be further restrictions on alcohol?"

As a mind-reader, you are a complete failure.

There may well be "further restrictions on alcohol". I just don't accept that these must necessarily be as extreme as you imagine.

27

english charlie,

28/06/2009 16:01:49
#26 hermit. So you DO believe that there will be further restrictions on alcohol. Very few thought that the restrictions on smoking would go as far as it has. Anti-smoking groups are fighting for further restrictions and anti-drinking groups will do the same with alcohol.
28

The new waspy,

28/06/2009 17:10:57
#20
They may be trying to save lives due to over buse.
Then again that is the persons own right, they choose, they live or die.
Sniffs a bit of Common Purpose having a hand in it.
29

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 17:37:41
27
english charlie

"So you DO believe that there will be further restrictions on alcohol."

Try to realise that I never denied the possibility of "further restrictions on alcohol" (whatever that means). It was something you conjured from your own imagination.

And I repeat, the fact that further legislation is possible does not mean that this putative legislation must necessarily be of the ludicrously draconian nature that you suppose.

30

english charlie,

28/06/2009 17:55:48
#29Hermit. Have you read this story? NEW laws equal new restrictions. This is NOT my imagination.
31

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 18:25:34
30
english charlie

"Have you read this story? NEW laws equal new restrictions. This is NOT my imagination."

Have you read your own posts? Banging on about alcohol being banned from display is hardly a realistic notion.

It is just as as fallacious to represent that new legislation equates to new restrictions. The Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 was generally regarded as a massive liberalisation off the existing regime.

The 2005 act is, as I have already pointed out, about very much more than merely limiting off-sales hours. The principal effect will be to force publicans and their staff to behave responsibly when serving alcohol. And make it much easier to deal effectively with those who, hitherto, have got away with behaving irresponsibly.

That will make pubs better and benefit the entire trade.

The article, if you read it critically, is actually about trade representatives trying to shift blame for the administrative failures of those of their members who have left everything until it's too late. It is not about to fool anybody who is familiar with the business and the fairly simple procedures necessary to ensure compliance with the new legislation.

32

soapy1,

28/06/2009 18:31:13
That is a fair enough comment Waspy, I would ask that you consider this:

Is the saving of 40,000, statistical lives worth the loss of livlihood for 100,000 real people?

Is the loss of one real life worth the £43 million spent on anti smoking and 40,000 paper lives when that one life could have been saved?

Is it right that the pub industry be decimated because people choose to persue a legal activity?

The further restrictions proposed in respect of alcohol will not stop anyone drinking to excess or otherwise, it will ensure that more pubs will close, along with off licences. There is more than adequate legislation in place which is not enforced, does adding more legislation make sense to you?

The fact that you accept and respect individual choice and can still accept what they are attempting to do speaks volumes, it says you are a reasonable person who is willing to question the motives behind this legislation, sadly there are too few people who do.

As too Common Purpose I have heard much of them regrettably little that is good, no organisation that hides in the shadows and is afraid of public debate has ever been good, something that ASH and Common Purpose should take note of, that the NSDAP failed to take note of.

Admiral Yamato was correct when after Pearl harbour he sad "I fear we have awakened a giant and filled him with a terrible resolve" The Japanese have another saying "he who sows the wind shall reap the whirlwind" Both statements were true as WWII bears out, they apply equally to this legislation!
33

english charlie,

28/06/2009 18:55:01
#31. Hermit says 'The 2005 act is, as I have already pointed out, about very much more than merely limiting off-sales hours'. So limiting is not a restrction? I figment of your imagination? Get your head out of the sand and see what's coming.
34

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 19:11:11
33
english charlie

"So limiting is not a restrction? I figment of your imagination? Get your head out of the sand and see what's coming."

FFS! Who said it wasn't a restriction? What I am ridiculing is your ludicrous contention that the generally reasonable measures of the 2005 fact must be the precursor to draconian measures that are no more than a figment of your imagination.

The sky is not falling.

35

english charlie,

28/06/2009 19:49:52
#34Hermit.
No drinking of alcohol in various streets.
No drinking in various parks.
No glasses to be taken outside pubs.
Now.'Supermarkets will be barred from selling drink before 10am and will be told to restrict alcohol to certain designated parts of the store'.
I wish I had your confidence of no further restrictions.
I off for a drink now
36

Electric Hermit,

28/06/2009 20:01:11
35
english charlie

"No drinking of alcohol in various streets."

Local byelaws. Usually as a result of representations by the public to the local authority. I take the view that communities should be able to make such choices about their own neighbourhoods.

By contrast, we now have many designated areas where people can sit outside and have a drink. In Glasgow last summer I was struck by the street-bars. Not only could we sit outdoors on a very hot evening, the bar was outdoors as well. We didn't have to fight our way through crowded premises to be served.

You wouldn't have got that in the "good old days"!

"No drinking in various parks."

Nothing new here.

"Supermarkets will be barred from selling drink before 10am and will be told to restrict alcohol to certain designated parts of the store"

So what?

37

extra2009,

earth 04/07/2009 16:19:17
I lost all patience with publicans when my local landlord would have expected my daughter hypothetically to work as a barmaid inhaling smoke all night yet he expected his own daughter to be protected by the Health & Safety at Work act from industrial fumes. I'm sorry publicans, but it ain't the smoke ban that is causing the demise on the pub but the price we pay for drinking with you; we are the most expensive country to drink alcohol in in most of Europe, double the cost of Germany & France. London tax greed is the root cause... AND - drunkenness & violence are also completely out of hand, every town centre is a battleground all weekend so if they need to restrict sales by time or location so be it. No one takes the slightest bit of responsibility so of course the legislators panic.




 

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