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I'll fight to save Union from SNP, says Brown


Cross-border dispute intensifies

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Published Date: 30 December 2007
By Eddie Barnes
Political Editor
GORDON Brown will this week issue a defiant pledge to use 2008 to "stand up" for the United Kingdom, in a sign he intends to hit back against the SNP following a disastrous year for Labour.
The Prime Minister is to use his New Year message to single out the worth of the Union, declaring he will make the case for a British state in the coming months.

Brown says he will spend the next 12 months persuading the public that there is no
such thing as a "Scotland-only" solution to the nation's problems.

His messages come as relations between Edinburgh and London have plunged to a new low, with SNP ministers complaining that Westminster is ignoring their plans and Labour accusing the Nationalists of political point-scoring.

Brown has said previously that he would work with Salmond "in the best interests of Scotland" but it appears he now wants to take a tougher line.

In his message, Brown declares: "In 2008, with firm conviction and resolve, we will make the case for the United Kingdom – standing up for the cause of the Union and against secession, showing people in all parts of the country that for so many of the challenges our country faces – from climate change to terrorism – there are no Wales-only, Scotland-only or England-only solutions."

Brown said his policies reflected "our shared vision of a new Britain rooted in enduring traditions and values". He wanted to build a country "proud of its progress towards equality and confident of its future," he said.

The message sets the scene for a major battle of wills, as the SNP Government seeks to further its case for Scottish independence, in the teeth of bitter opposition from the Unionist parties.

Polling evidence released by the Nationalists this weekend suggests that the SNP could beat Labour in Scotland at a Westminster election as well.

An SNP source said: "The success of the Scottish Government as we approach the New Year is demonstrated by the fact that we are now even ahead of Labour for a UK general election, which is a hugely significant development."

In his own New Year message last night, Conservative leader David Cameron said that he would use 2008 to set out "a clear and credible alternative to this hopeless and incompetent Labour government".

"I sense that Britain feels it's time for a change," he said.

"There probably won't be a General Election this year but we will behave and work as though there is and in doing so prove that you can once again trust a Conservative government to take this country forward."



The full article contains 447 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 December 2007 12:15 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

Grant,

Scotland 30/12/2007 00:13:44
The sad thing is Gordon, that it will be you and your unionist ilk, not any of these bogeymen Nats that must keep you awake at night, who will destroy the Union
2

James,

Dundee 30/12/2007 00:16:14
London Labour with its Scottish Caretaker Manager, have lost.
They know it, but are still in denial.
3

,

30/12/2007 00:20:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
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4

Richardinho,

30/12/2007 00:21:59
the best thing Gordon could do to help the relationship between Westminster and Scotland (and the other devolved parliaments) is to pick up the phone and talk to them once in a while.
5

tartan army 2222,

30/12/2007 00:26:38
Keep it up Gordy. Your reasons for 'protecting' the union were always transparent - now they're getting tedious. While you try to nail Salmond with your talk of a unified country what you're actually doing is hammering the last nails into the coffin that is the UK. And good riddance.
6

Reekin' Lum,

30/12/2007 00:28:35
The Union is dead and has been since its inception. The term "Union" has been a misnomer since it implies contractual equality between two parties. That has never been the case. Looking at the sum totality of what it has brought to Scotland, as the smaller and dependent party on those who have ruled them from Westminster, it has to be obvious even to a halfwit that this community of equals never existed from day 1.

Steps have now been taken to remedy this, and, with time, in democratic fashion, a referendum will be held, and the likes of Gordon Brown and his fellow anglicized Scots who achieved their dream of political power in their UK government will, sadly, be turned on by both English and Scots alike.

In the meantime he can haver on all he likes and fly his Union Jack and continue to change his accent into that of middle england and when the time comes and he has to head home with his tail between his legs, he can ponder - will there be a job for me in Scotland? can I somehow make amends for my mendacity? can I regain my Scottish accent? will they let me into St.Giles?
7

Riley Hamish,

Edina 30/12/2007 00:31:54
Why am I reminded of the very apt quote attributed to Dennis Healey after being challenged by Goeffrey Howe....
....."Being attacked by (Gordon Brown) is like being savaged by a dead sheep"
SNP? Attack? Aye Right Broon....we think yer gonna hae muckle too much oan yer ain back yaird keepin' WeeWindy and Co. oot the jile tae hae Eck worryin' ower much aboot your threats !!
8

Steve,

Bo'ness 30/12/2007 00:32:10
Gordon Brown by his own petty behaviour, is winning few friends in Scotland. He's a big bairn.

If his best argument for the union is "the fight against terror" (the very terror which his foreign policy encouraged), then he's on thin ice. What a hard neck he has.

Same old Labour. Use negativity and FEAR at every opportunity, and hope it rubs off.
9

subrosa,

30/12/2007 00:42:44
Where's oor Wendy's New Year message?
10

,

30/12/2007 00:47:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
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11

Mac Coinnich,

North sea Oil & Gas platform 30/12/2007 00:53:06
Aye Scottish career politician's like Brown & his gang who want to strut about the world stage rather than take Scotland forward is typical of the complicit Scottish unionist outlook. These individuals have shed all their ideals to represent the British State & all its trapping's. As I say to Dr Reid, Brian Wilson, George Galloway & the composser yahoo James MacMillan-Take yer Union flags to Celtic Park!
12

cataibh,

Bo'ness 30/12/2007 01:04:05
I will fight to save the union says Broon, yet it is always Alex Salmon who is blamed in the unionist press for picking fights with the Westminster gang.
13

cataibh,

Bo'ness 30/12/2007 01:04:05
I will fight to save the union says Broon, yet it is always Alex Salmon who is blamed in the unionist press for picking fights with the Westminster gang.
14

,

30/12/2007 01:04:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
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15

Reekin' Lum,

30/12/2007 01:04:53
In his message, Brown declares: "In 2008, with firm conviction and resolve, we will make the case for the United Kingdom – standing up for the cause of the Union and against secession, showing people in all parts of the country that for so many of the challenges our country faces – from climate change to terrorism – there are no Wales-only, Scotland-only or England-only solutions."

OK, Broon, so you tell us how we have NOT had 300 years of England only solutions? Has something changed over that time that we knew nothing about? How about the Scottish regiments that were incorpared into the English Army, but run by Englishmen, with a certain percent of English in there to make sure there were no nationalist problems? how about the time in your Parliament of those times when someone asked " where are the Highlanders" and someone else had to reply , " there are no more, I'm afraid" - because they had been sent out as cannon fodder to uphold the English Empire, the fabulous fighters they were? and while they did they fighting, back home we had the clearances and all this to name but a few of the indignities and ignominy that this so called Union inflicted on the Scots.

So, Broon, you have achieved your ambition, you have let down your homeland, but, of course, that doesn't exist since your homeland is Britain. So off you go into the twilight, you wee man, bereft of any national identity, singing God Save the Queen as you sail off to a country called "Britain" that doesn't exist.



16

Wisnaeme,

30/12/2007 01:46:27
Oh good, McCavity's made a promise. I do like it when New Labour makes a promise.Even if it's just to witness the unravelling of "just another Labour promise". Failure will not be tolerated then, Gordon?

Aye, well ah suppose he could sack himself before being overtaken by the 'events' now standing in a queue awaiting disclosure. I do despair of folk keeping creatures in terminal decline by their refusal to accept reality.
Put yourself out of your misery McCavity and depart.



17

steve green,

preston,lancashire. 30/12/2007 01:48:10
I'm an englishman who loves Scotland,(just got back from Wick where my first grandchild Cora has been born(25.12.07) but as far as I'm concerned Brown is as big a coward, liar and cheat as hi predecessor.
18

langtonian,

scotus 30/12/2007 01:54:16
#15Reekin Lum,
Spare us the stodgy down in the dumps "historical rants" .you are a first class example of "chip on both shoulder" mealy mouthed, ignorant of the current facts of life which require us to remain part of the Union.

Fact -We live in one of the most vibrant countries in the world.
Fact-The Labour Party with Gordon Brown as Prime Minister is what is requiered to maintain our position in enjoying the joint security and economic purpose to face a future as a nation.
19

tartan army 2222,

30/12/2007 01:56:22
16

Yawn!

Almost as well thought out as your post!
20

walter,

30/12/2007 02:09:40
In the politics of military life all the section commander has to do is stand up for the section with in the platoon.
The platoon commander has it a bit harder, he has to work with in the platoon and stand up for the platoon at company level.
The company commander has it even harder, he has to work with in the company and stand up for the company at battalion level.
The commanding officer has it even harder, he has to work with in the battalion and stand up for the battalion at a higher level and so on.
The platoon commander can devote 100% of his time to the platoon.
The CO does not have time to devote himself to one platoon he has a bigger picture to look at.
If any one is wondering what I am getting at it is simple.
Salmond is a platoon commander, Brown is a commanding officer.
21

langtonian,

scotus 30/12/2007 02:11:09
#16 AM2
My forecast for said bubble to burst will occurr very soon into the New Year when the 32 Scottish Coucils become more fully aware of the "now you see it now you don't" SNP, budgetry con. that has been forced upon them, never mind that John Swinney stated in Holyrood he had signed an agreement with all the 33 councils, a bit of paper which had about as much relevance as the one Chamberlain flourished when returning from Germany declaring "peace in our time"
To meet the targets, councils will have to slash and put on a back burner many of their plans, to say nothing of drastically reducing current basic services.

Happy New Year- Lang May Y'er Lum's Reek in 2008.
22

subrosa,

30/12/2007 02:11:55
*18 Steve

Congratulations and hope Mum and baby are doing well.
23

Willie Macleod,

Wick 30/12/2007 02:15:36
#18 Congradulations Steve on the birth of your first grandchild Best Wishes to you and your family
24

baffies away,

30/12/2007 02:34:29
Walter #21 - This "CO" as you describe him is also responsible for the deaths of hundreds of servicemen by sending them to fight in an illegal war. Anyone who has served would never, ever, link a spineless politician like Brown with the fine people who serve in the military.
25

walter,

30/12/2007 02:44:39
#26 I knew as soon as I posted 21 I had missed out the words "equivalent to" and that some one would come up with suggesting that some one who had not served would say such a thing.
But you are wrong I took the Queens shilling in 1980 donned the uniform and still wear it.
26

Willie Macleod,

Wivck 30/12/2007 03:14:41
Spelling mistake #25 Congratulations sorry
27

Willie Macleod,

Wick 30/12/2007 03:28:48
Oh dear spelling mistake at #28 Wick Sorry it was that last drop of Highland Park.
28

A Better Way,

Edinburgh, Scotland 30/12/2007 03:43:00
Did any of you hear Brown screaming from under his desk way down in his home town of London. "What do you mean the SNP are leading the London Controlled New Numptie Party in Scotland by 2%, thats not possible because we created a Poverty Class that we conned into voting for us to get to better days"

"Errr, sorry Gordon they have woke up from their sleep and are all going over to the Scottish Way in droves"

"But we need their votes to get into Government in London, I mean thats where the big trough is and my lot will knife me if we lose the Trough"

Walter you sold out for a shilling, probably more than your worth. You live in England anyway, so we dont need your vote, we already have lots and lots of Scots in England and the rest of the World who havent turned their back on their ain kind.
29

A Better Way,

Edinburgh, Scotland. 30/12/2007 03:51:05
Congratulations Steve on the Grandbairn. All the best to Mum & Dad and the bairn. Just think Steve the bairn will one day be voting in an election for the next Scottish Government the people decide to vote for. The bairn and many others will probably study the life of Alex Salmond at school or University, the father of a new reborn Scottish Nation. Broon will of course be potrayed as the traitor he is along with his tribe of psychophants like Darlin, Browne, Alexander Brothers, Cairns,Foulkes sake etc etc etc etc.
30

donald,

glasgow 30/12/2007 03:54:29
C'mon Fifers. Give him the bum's rush and create a laugh at the next election.
31

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 04:11:15
#23

Perhaps you should get together with all those unionist loyalists you speak of, a form an association dedicated to preserving the union?

You could march around the Queen’s highway carrying Union flags and wearing bowler hats along with some really colourful regalia, sashes, aprons and grim faces.

Some of your number will be familiar with amusing little traditional folk songs which speak of more joyous times of wading through rivers of your enemies blood..

Should there still be people who disagree with your views, you could help protect the Union by placing pipe bombs in primary schools, or by blowing up pubs who do not pay appropriate sums of protection money to your group.

You could even enlist the help of #27 Walter, who apparently has not changed his clothing for around 27 years.

That will teach those pesky Nats to even think about democracy!
32

williamx,

canada 30/12/2007 04:28:01
#15 Reekin Lum.
The Highland clearances were carried out by the Scottish Elite clan chiefs.
The massive losses in world war 1,twice those of English regiments, were created by the policies and plans of Earl Haig, a member of the Scottish Elite.
The decision to accept estates and life pensions in 1707 in return for surrendering Scotland was carried out by the Scottish Elite.
The performance of Scotland between 1707 and 2000 was controlled by the Eton and Oxbridge Scottish Elite.
Stop blaming the English population for the results produced by the manipulations carried out by the Scottish Elite. It is only recently that as a result of devolution you have been aware of the pathetic quisling performance of 3 of the 4 parties at Holyrood and they are not Scottish Elite but are just as bad.
33

Musselburgh Postie,

Ho Chi Minh City 30/12/2007 05:46:22
if Brown wants to save the union he must call an election and let the Torries into government. The English are growing to hate him and through him all things Scottish. He is creating a feeling in England that they want rid of us ( I am happy about that). Does he want to save the union or does he want power. Sadly the latter is true and everyone south of the border knows it. Brown through his liking for power and complete lack of empathy for the populace is going to deliver independence for Scotland Keep going Gordon you are doing a grand job
34

A Better Way,

Edinburgh, Scotland. 30/12/2007 07:04:52
Have a look at the real story that compared the speech of Alex and the speech of Hen Broon.

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.1932883.0.0.php

One is upbeat about Scotland like the herald poll, and the semi-english Hen Broon spouts out his typical negative London New Labour Sheite.Make up your own mind who is the best one for Scots. A wee hint for you,his name isnt Hen Broon.
35

A Better Way,

30/12/2007 07:11:46
Williamx,actually you are not quite right there bill. By the time of the clearances many very large tracts of Land were in English Hands and the decision was an agreement by the major landowners on a plan put forward by Westminster who saw it as an opportunity to make the land more profitable and get rid of any chance of an uprising by the highlanders and lowlanders.
36

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 30/12/2007 07:17:18
#36 Your "Party Political Broadcasts" are extremely tedious, a period of silence on your part would be most welcome.
37

A Better Way,

Edinburgh, Scotland. 30/12/2007 07:20:23
Haig was a murderer and was part of the Scottish Elite. But lets not forget that Haig was a replacement for a failed English General who was less willing to send his men over the top purely to satisfy Whitehall.

Haig sent so many men over the top because he did what he was told no matter what his own opinion was. He was and is still remembered as a butcher who ranked right up there with Stalin. His museum in the High Street should be dismantled and his many many awards should be burned as an example to generals, Politicians who decide to invade other countries on false claims based on lies.
38

mr chips,

30/12/2007 07:21:13
36 .
Well said pal.
39

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 30/12/2007 07:37:46
#39 Please do not let the facts stand in the way of a good historical rant Haig was the best man available for the post of C.in C. and his reputation is now being re habilitated by some distinguished historians. Lloyd George the politician wrote the memoirs, Haig the soldier got the opprobrium it is always the way.
40

Spotter,

30/12/2007 07:53:07
hey think of the bigger pic

brown's statement means nothing to the union but everything to jittery scots lab mps who see their careers over at next election when snp have balance of power in westminster
41

Spotter,

30/12/2007 07:59:23
i think the observer has the real line rather thn tha parochial barnes angle

Grim Brown warns of a bleak year for Britain


· Prepare for turbulence to come, says PM
· Credit crunch 'our biggest challenge'

Nicholas Watt, political editor
Sunday December 30, 2007
The Observer


Prime minister Gordon Brown speaks during a press conference inside Downing Street, 19 December 2007. Photograph: Carl De Souza/PA



Gordon Brown today issues a bleak assessment of the world economy as he braces Britain for a year of belt tightening in the wake of the credit crunch.
In a strong warning, which sets the backdrop for a campaign to revive his premiership, Brown tells Britain to prepare for 'global financial turbulence' in 2008. 'Our strong economy is the foundation,' Brown writes in his new year message. 'With unbending determination in 2008, we will steer a course of stability through global financial turbulence. The global credit problem that started in America is now the most immediate challenge for every economy.'

42

Robbie 2,

NZ 30/12/2007 08:06:21
23 AM2
What is you problem with sovereignty? Let us say it again:
At present compared with New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland, Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden, Australia, Iceland, Denmark, Singapore, Finland. ALL very prosperous pretty small in population or size.
Scotland has no seat at the UN. Scotland has little recognition around the world. (UK and England are considered synonymous) Scotland has no political sovereignty (to war or not to war).
Unlike virtually every other nation; do Scots not have enough self-esteem or ambition in forging their own destiny. It would matter not a jot if the Scottish people 'en masse' were against a decision made by the UK at the UN or anywhere as Scotland does not have a sovereign voice in International Relations. Scotland could not decide to assist in say East Timor, Bougainville, be nuclear free, arrange trade deal or any deals with another sovereign nation and could not decide to remain from conflicts as in say Iraq. Its influence is most definite governed by Westminster. Let us say it again independence is the ‘NORM’.
Virtually all nations wish (and are) and prosperous under self-government.
43

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/12/2007 08:10:23
If I was Gordon, I would worry more about fighting for my seat given recent polls or my job given Labours penchant for back stabbing party leaders. Fighting for the "Union" is just going to prolong the inevitable. All the arguments for remaining in this one sided relationship such as the Security Council Seat, Membership in the G7, hanging onto the Pound that is falling faster than English house prices are specious at best. The original motivation was access to Englands overseas colonies for trade. Not to many of them left. Perhaps when Scotland inevitably leaves and England loses these illusions of power she once had but no longer does, maybe then England will find the courage to confront the real mediocrity of her present situation, rather than clinging to the laurels of the past.
44

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/12/2007 08:21:06
Calamity 'Mr Bean' Brown is bringing about the very thing he fears. The Union is the natural and traditional condition for Briton, but it has been abused, giving the immigrant groups such as the Scotti and the Celt a drum to beat. A federation remains the sane way forward.
45

Robbie 2,

30/12/2007 08:27:10
46 Rulesbutnotrulers,
"..giving the immigrant groups such as the Scotti and the Celt a drum to beat."

This is the 21st century.
46

Scotch man,

Other 30/12/2007 08:27:44
Will Mr.Brown be able to persuade citizens to give unification the currency????
47

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 30/12/2007 08:29:07
#46 Don't forget the other migrants, the Angles, Saxons and most recently the Saxe-Coburgs. Maybe we should ship them and their progeny back to Germany.
48

Border Scot,

Hawick 30/12/2007 08:34:09
#44 - The future of Scotland is entirely in the hands of Scots. The Scots have had countless opportunities to give the majority of their votes to parties that support independence and have never done so. All it would take is for Scotland to vote SNP and everything would change. But even if you take into account the SNP's own polling - as alluded to in this article - we are a long way from seeing that happen.

It is not England's fault that the Scots have never voted in sufficient numbers for the SNP. It is not England's fault that Scotland returns so many Iraq war-supporting Labour MPs. Scotland's future is in the hands of Scots and no-one else. That is a simple fact.

As for the rest of what you say - not all small, independent countries are successful. In the same way, not all successful, small countries are independent. The likes of Bavaria and Catalonia show what can be achieved within a larger country when you start to harness local advantages with the benefits being an influential part of a big hitter can bring.
49

Border Scot,

Hawick 30/12/2007 08:36:24
#45 - Can you explain what you mean by "England" here? If you cannot, you will desrv e to be labelled just another plastic braveheart who defines himself by his hatred for a country he knows nothing about.
50

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 08:37:22
#49 - So you would like to see the population of the SE of Scotland deported en masse?
51

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/12/2007 08:49:18
Who mentioned deportation? The simple rule here is that immigrants are volunteers and guests, and as such should obey house rules, or knock on someone else's door. This rule applies in the 21C as in any other. Ignorance of our roots and history accounts for many of our woes. Briton is one country, like it or leave it.
52

Trojan Horse,

Scotland 30/12/2007 09:13:50
Broon is like Hitler in his Belin bunker avidly making plans that 'will win the war'.Broon like Hitler was by then is quite pathetic.
53

1745,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 09:17:19
Come the next election Gordon Brown will have no Job I predict that he will loose his seat in Fife, the folk there dislike him as much as the rest of us. That is the reason he did not call an election earlier this year ,he was advised by the grass roots that he would loose his seat.So maybe he should take over Tonys constituency in the hope of staying in government.
54

BIG EYE,

30/12/2007 09:23:43
Brown is not wholly responsible for the credit squeeze we are all about to experience but he is wholly responsible for the weak position the UK is in to combat it.

Along with Blair his high spending policies based on increasing borrowing to sustain his economic boom has left the UK in spiralling debt, shrinking growth and the prospect of increasing taxes on what is already a grossly overtaxed country.

The appeal of an independent Scotland and a positive agenda for our country has never been greater.
55

danielrober,

Still in London 30/12/2007 09:29:06
I might not agree with the Labour party but i do agree with the Prime Minister. Well said sir.
56

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 09:30:19
It's ironic that, if Brown were truly a believer in the Union, he has it in his hands to ensure it's survival for decades to come but chooses not to. He chooses to put his own power and the advantage of the Labour Party before the existance of the UK. Broon may be a psychotic bully and megalomaniac but he's not stupid. He knows that it will be the English who finally end the Union; p***ed off over the genuine unfairness of Scottish Labour MPs voting on English matters and the perceived unfairness of the Barnett formua. Broon could change both very quickly but it would consign him and his corrupt party to the political wilderness. For him the price of a few more years of power is his so-called beloved Union.
57

Robbie 2,

30/12/2007 09:34:03
50 Border Scot, states:
" The future of Scotland is entirely in the hands of Scots."
Hi BS - You are correct - but there is the wee issue of propaganda and indoctrination (you know like the churches and Orange Lodge - the history books, the Daily Record, the 'dumbing down' of citizens with 'reality shows' as John Pilger suggests, 'The New Rulers of the World' are the media. They can make or break any cause with spin, innuendo, ridicule, or other manipulative tools.
Politicians (including the very skilled A. Salmon) use their personal power of rhetoric to apparently score points over the opposition. But by their use of sarcasm and all trying to be comedians they entrench their support among their own people and win few vote from the 'undecided'- the million who are pi*sed off with politicians.
These are the potential voters who should be made more aware what national sovereignty represents and what the Union means not only to Scots but to our neighbours in England plus the commonwealth and throughout the World. Most Scots are led to believe (through the 'popular press')- that we are loved and admired - when in truth we are 'unknown’ or seen as a part of England. I meet different nationalities every day and am passed be amazed of those who do not even understand what Scotland is (true before they came to NZ - they’d never heard of us either).
Many Scots (and other nationalities ) are politically and geographically naive - and remaining part of a Union that leaves us ‘powerless’ seems pointless.
Copy this into your browser - it's an eye-opener.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVbobdL3yi0&feature=related
Not to say that all Scots are as 'unaware' as these people but BS the issues of Scottish independence can not be decided until better knowledge and fair ‘reporting ‘ is available for all.
58

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 09:45:01
Now Broon admits that there will be a fight to save the lost cause of the union.
59

steve 1511,

aberdeen 30/12/2007 09:47:41
i for one do not believe a word that is spouted by broon or any of his lackeys,he is a compulsive liar as he and his labour party have been found out on many occasions this year,

and wendy woo in the new year the polis will be for you
60

Jamesg,

Perth Australia 30/12/2007 10:00:31
44 Robbie 2

I agree with your comments about the capacity of independent nations to stake out their own role in international relations (Norway, about the same population as Scotland is a great example of promoting conflict resolution amongst warring nations and taken its own independent stance). However let us not forget the heavy handed influence the US has on smaller nations, especially through economic globalisation. Look at so-called independent Australia which a couple of years back signed up to a free trade agreement with the US and was an enthusiastic member of the US controlled coalition of the willing in Iraq. I wonder how an independent Scotland would respond if we had another bout of agressive US unilateralism?
61

Ken S.,

Reading 30/12/2007 10:11:51
I don't somehow believe that Brown is a credible champion for the Union. He only seems to have fallen in love with it after realising that he has contributed to its demise and stands to lose power as a result.

If "..there are no Wales-only, Scotland-only or England-only solutions." then what, pray, is devolution all about?

Return to proper Union (fat chance!) or proceed to federation or independence. Agree with his ambition or not, Alex Salmond is the only one with some sort of clear, consistent constitutional vision.
62

Roy,

30/12/2007 10:21:34
Anyone been watching the Jurassic Park re-runs on the box this week? I'm sure I spotted a Broonasaurus...
63

frank mcbride,

lusitania 30/12/2007 10:23:20
Brown has just signalled a 12/18 months re-run of NuLabour's, and for that matter - the whole Unionist Alliance's, negative, fears ridden, failed 2007 Election campaign.

Expect a daily media diet of scaremongering stories, spurious attacks on the SG, distoted statistics etc.

We can rely on AM2, Walter, Royster and their compatriots to supply the website attack.

I, personally, am delighted that Mr. Brown is prepared to "face up", as it can only benefit the cause of Independence.
64

KWC,

Liberton, Edinburgh 30/12/2007 10:44:25
Though I'm no SNP supporter I think the biggest problem facing the UK is ... Gordon Brown.

He has been forced to spend billions this year to shore up the problems he has created over the years. He will respond and we (i.e. all us easy target taxpayers) better beware. He is shaping up to be the worst PM ever and he only knows how to extort.

I hope Scotland, including the SNP, respond.
65

Boy Wonder,

30/12/2007 10:50:22
"I'll fight to save Union from SNP, says Brown."

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!

66

bluehead,

edinburgh 30/12/2007 11:12:45
if Broonie had any real concern for this country he would resign,it was bad enough suffering Blair all these years but he is even worse.
scotland needs to be free from him and his mob,let the air be fresh and let us live like true scotspeople if it is not too late.
this country is fast going down the Lavvy pan and it will be even faster with brown and his pile around
67

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 30/12/2007 11:15:10
I know most of the posters here are not big fans of Gerald Warner but his article on Gordon Brown is hilarious to-day, some of the content however may be upsetting for those of a nervous disposition.
68

Grazzer,

United Kingdom 30/12/2007 11:22:18
As an Englishman living in England who loves Scotland, I can tell you the reason why Labour is in absolute panic is that if Scotland left the union, and Wales went its own sweet way, the Conservatives would be in power in England for the majority of the time. And what do you do about Ulster?
I'd like to know if Union flag waving Rangers supporters are pro-Union.
69

jdships,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 11:25:23
Regardless of political persuasion it bothers me greatly that the great majority of SNP posters are unwilling to accept the democratic process - tending to insult anyone who disagrees with them !
Please remember
" I may not agree with your opinion but acknowledge your right to expressit "

Unfortunately most politicians do the same - AS included.

What happened to manners and old fashioned values ?
70

pehman,

sussex 30/12/2007 11:25:40
If Maggie intends spending more time in Scotland next year then that can only be good for the SNP.

After the local elections in May (England and Wales) brown will be fighting it out with wee joke for the Mallawi job.

By this time next year labour will have a new leader or should that be two new leaders

I myself will be returning home for keeps in June or July and hopefully I'll be around for at least some of the by-elections, so I also look forward to meeting some of you there.

PS, the first round is on me.

PPS, Hearty congratulations Steve on the birth of your Grand-daughter. And VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL
71

,

30/12/2007 11:26:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
72

Geoff,

sa 30/12/2007 11:32:02
1 and 4-good posts. Gordon brown needs to engage with the SNP-Nu Labours attitude towards and dealings with the Nats have been churlish and spiteful-ultimately totally counter productive. That is not to say that AS is whiter than driven snow-he is a canny politician who will exploit every opportunity to make mischief towards his primary cause of Scottish Independence.If I had been British PM I would have congratulated Salmond and given a commitment to work with Holyrood for the benefit of Scotland but at the same time maintained my personal endeavours toward the maintenance of Great Britain. Nu Labours cold shouldering of the Nats is seen by many-even those who dont support the Nats, as directed at them-my country right or wrong!
73

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 11:41:07
#74

Upon your return, wander by the precincts of Auld Reekie.

I’m sure we will be able to find a suitable hostelry in which to toast the success of the new Scottish Renaissance.

Happy New Year.
74

Geoff,

30/12/2007 11:43:35
Robbie2 NZ-any relation to Robbie1? Where the hell have you been-you've missed some fine verbal violence!
50 Border scot-Good post-Robbie?
75

danielrober,

Still in London for work 30/12/2007 11:46:05
Devolution is just one part of a process of massive reform needed to up date our islands for the new century.

Both personaly and professionaly, i think that a federal solution offers the best long-term solution for Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the different parts of England. Local areas offers considerable resources (for local communities) and specific skills for the UK and EU.

My only worry is that all this distraction will slow down reforms needed in other sectors of our countries life. Fishing still needs to be addressed, along with farming, coal mining, pensions, health services and housing, etc.

So i think i can show my support for Prime Minister Brown, WITHOUT supporting the labour party.
76

Pilrig,

Livingston 30/12/2007 11:47:50
He'd be better fighting to save his job from Call Me Dave
77

Geoff,

30/12/2007 11:55:26
Rules and danielrober-yes federation is now the only way forward for GB and NI(as opposed to independence of course) Labour made a dreadful botch of devolution leaving England with no Assembly and westminster as a kind of hybrid British-English Parliament-now suitable for neither role.
78

danielrober,

30/12/2007 12:10:35
# 81 Geoff, SA

So Geoff, what is your allegence are you an old SA, of Cape Town or J'burg? Or are you one of the recent runners, who have made money in our economy and have legged it to SA to avoid their taxation bill?

Or are you 'another' group, still hidden?

Anyway. Federation is not the only way forward, there are at least 6 main options from Full Indpenedence to the Status Quo. Its a matter of debate and discussion as to which is the best option.

Personaly I'm against the status quo because the UK gets a bad deal from many former colonianl countries including SA. Many former colonies are all for the British club, when were buying and for economic independence when were selling. Its a bad deal, reform will deal with it.

You guys in SA still owe us money for the power stations we built and piad for in the 1950's, by British Engineering businesses.
79

morris,

edinburgh 30/12/2007 12:23:26
63 Ken S.,Reading

Devolution was essentially power retained rather than power devolved.
If you really want to know whats going on OK.
I suspect you already do however, and apologise if I teach my Granny to suck eggs here !

Scotland is subsidising LONDON.
Every region of the UK is in fact.
The Barnett formula shows this.
The problem is that the total subsidy to London is such that what Scotland receives back is less than she contributes.Hence the nationalist argument.
There is additionally billions in oil revenues in the North Sea which accrue to Scotland if we separate. Boundaries are drawn at right angles to the land,in this case at Berwick.There is also an Act of Parliament called the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction Order)around 1968 which divided the North Sea anyway which was enacted by Westminster,and it will take a monumental effort to question the legitimacy of what was essentially your own act!
If Scotland (population 5 million) leaves she is laughing.(Big cake and few mouths to feed)
However so far 236 billion has accrued to Westminster from the Scottish North Sea sector ,and theres approx the same still there again.
Independence would lose Westminster a serious amount of income.WE HAVE BEEN LIED TO both sides of the Tweed IE

Devolution is designed NOT to provide good governance for Scotland but to con us into thinking we have a parliament. What we have has no control over the purse strings and is therefore meant to retain the UK access to these North Sea revenues,not devolve meaningfully.

As I said at the beginning POWER DEVOLVED is REVENUES RETAINED. The lesser of the two evils from a LONDON point of view.
A step in the right direction perhaps, and seen as being better than nothing from a Scots perspective, but thats all it is !
We are the political equivalent of a child who is free to spend his pocket money as he chooses, but Daddy decides how much of the money Junior earns from his paper round is actually Juniors,and how much
80

morris,

edinburgh 30/12/2007 12:26:37
83 continued
and how much is Daddy's beer fund!
81

Conway,

30/12/2007 12:27:41
Mr Brown has signed the latest of many European treatys giving up areas of responsibility for the UK to the European Parliament,and when he has gone the next British PM will do the same.
The Scottish parliament and MSPs will gain more power the Welsh Assembly will gain full law making powers and The Nothern Ireland assembly will do the same the only people on this small group of Islands not to have a say on there own affairs are The English.
All this talk of saving the Union sounds like the desperate measures the Last Conservative party took before being kicked out eg Michael Forsyth and the Stone of Destiny.
So Gordon can say what he likes and the Pro Britsh Nationalist/union press can try and slow things down but Britain as a political concept is on borrowed time.
82

morris,

edinburgh 30/12/2007 12:28:01
84

Indeed haahahah

A happy New Year to you also !
83

danielrober,

30/12/2007 12:44:35
Politics is politics, but come on lets leave the beer money out of it. Some essential services, must remian protected. Its a cultural issue.
84

The Strategist,

30/12/2007 12:46:01
Brown has to accept responsibility for the economic mess we're now in.

He is the one that encouraged the credit boom and house price inflation, did nothing to prevent the huge increase in the trade deficit and so on and so forth.

He also presided over the wholesale selling off of numerous strategically important companies and the fall in manufacturing. He has positively supported the Private Equity industry which produces nothing new and of course sold off important assets (gold reserves, QinetiQ, Westinghouse) at rock bottom prices.

I really don't understand at all what it is that drives him. I always considered the Tories to be industrial traitors but Brown has turned not standing up for UK industry into an art form. The exception has been financial services which he's protected and promoted to such an extent one must assume that he's either on the job offer of a lifetime or just plain naive.

The Northern Rock story is simply astonishing... Committing tax payers money to prop up this "bank" when he wouldn't do it for any other type of company shows where his loyalties and priorities lie.

Now, he's going to attack small companies with increases in corporation tax whilst larger companies such as the banks will end up paying less.

His "fuel duty levy" and other so called carbon taxes are not - as he promised - being put back into low carbon technology development or other clean technologies... Some is but most ends up in the general tax pot.. He's also damaged the N Sea oil/gas industry with increased taxation.. As to "carbon trading" the only beneficiaries are City Traders...

I really have no time for him or the Treasury.. Time to get out from under it all.
85

Geoff,

SA_Kwazulu-Natal 30/12/2007 12:48:10
82 Danielrober-ethnic Scot-born and brought up in Britain and Ireland-left for Africa as a child but still have most of family in UK.So, No didnt leave to avoid UK taxes-employ 150 locals so like to think of my self as a net contributor and a Brit-Scot who still has a love for and interest in the Islands of my birth. When I said federation was now the only alternative, what I meant was that from a UNIONIST point of view that is my OPINION as to the best way forward. The (almost) unitary state that was the UK prior to devolution is now finished-the devolution cat is firmly out of the bag not to be put back in, so for me REAL DEVOLUTION to all the constituents of the UK is a way of letting out the dirty bathwater without losing the baby!

Many in SA would say that the BRITISh owe SA money-not the other way round. Rhodes and the capitalist imperialist club of circa 1900 made good money from Southern Africa!
86

Nikostratos,

30/12/2007 12:54:32
Well Gordon will be getting a lot of support from Brian souter for his Britishness campaign.Him being a supporter of the British state that's according to his latest Stagecoach tv advert..must admit couldn't belive me eyes but it was there right in front of them........
87

Nikostratos,

30/12/2007 12:58:09
#91 Geoff

tells us about apartheid Geoff......Eh???
88

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 13:14:47
93 A policy widely condemned in the 80's by most countries, with trade and financial embargoes. The UK not among them however.
89

Ken S.,

Reading 30/12/2007 13:16:08
#83 morris,edinburgh

Ta for that.
Whilst I think that the technical basis of the Barnett Formula is wrong I have not indulged in the argybargying that goes on from time to time about which direction the subsidies flow.
In a proper Union, extra resources would be allocated from the central UK pot (it being immaterial where the kitty was earned, whether from northern British oil, south-eastern British financial services, etc) ,to specific needy localities across UK.

Now that we are not a Union, we each need to sort out our own finances, with a small Administration to handle federation-wide affairs - or of course full independence.
90

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 13:30:24
Will Brown's grand fight for the Union involve him overcoming his petulance and answering letters and calls from Scotland's elected First Minister?
91

danielrober,

30/12/2007 13:35:51
# Geoff, SA

So your parents left because of their taxation bill. OKAY. Thats got nothing to do with you, i can accept that. But how come you guys think we owe you money, for a war that you started and lost, twice?

Also why are you interested in the UK amdinistration if you are an SA expat? I'm support an open economy, but we still need to pay our bills. The UK is the most stable country in the world because we argue, disagree and vote (all of us). I'm sorry for your home land, always looking for someone else to blame. That's your shout.

But I really am more interested in he fisher-folk in these islands, who work hard rather than another set of subsidiesed business people from other countries. Nothing personal. Its just time for a new century and 'relevant reforms'.
92

democracy,

Scottish Borders 30/12/2007 13:38:14
Brown and his cohorts always claim that they gave Scotland "Devolution" but that could not be further from the truth as per usual. They yet again deliberately lie to the public, and this one is for silly little AM2 with his silly little data.
The REAL truth is that the European Commission threatened Westminster with sanctions if they did not sort out their illegal quasi-colonial method of governing Scotland as it was causing great problems with the breakaway countries, (due to the demise of communism), achieving entry into the EU. So Blair and Brown were sent kicking and screaming into a devolved settlement with not just Scotland but Wales and N.I.

So when Brown tells you he is trying his best for everyone concerned in the UK he is much more than likely spinning a yarn YET again, he simply CANNOT be trusted!!!!
93

Richardinho,

30/12/2007 13:51:26
Wow, I'd better give them a call, I don't seem to have received mine! If i'm going to receive a monthly cheque from central office I've got to make sure I'm following orders properly!
94

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 13:51:55
100 Gordon then puts on his tin-foil hat and mutters that "they" are watching him again....
95

pehman,

sussex 30/12/2007 13:58:48
See todays Sunday express online for results of superpoll. SNP set to take 16 labour seats.

See also sunday Post article by Margo
96

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 13:59:23
103 How masterfully irrelevant. International Law, UN treaty, the international maritim laws all reasonably and efficiently allocate martime resources beyond territorial waters by a right angle line drawn to intersect the borders o fteh states involved. This puts c 95% of oil bearing acreage in Scottish waters. Scottish legal juridiction already applies to 95% of oil bearing acreage (ENgalnd and Scotland having different legal systems) - so the Uk has already decided the matter - irrespective of whether it a "shelf" a coffee table or a night stand under the waves. For interest, the governments own analysis showing Scotland to be the 3rd richest country in the EU if independent used figures ranging from 75% of oil bearing acreage to 95% under Scottish jurisdiction - same result.
97

Rob7,

England 30/12/2007 14:00:18
Give England it independence - and send Brown home where he belongs. Now that would be a great year for everyone
98

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:00:53
104 How we we "prove" wrong a paranoid delusion? Is this not what all tin-foil hat wearing loons challenge as mater-strokes of their own logic when they claim to be receiving radio messages in their fillings?
99

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:01:31
107 They don't want him in Iraq either.
100

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:02:31
103 "Doggerland"? Is that not where Labour Cabinet ministers like Ron Davies hang out?
101

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 30/12/2007 14:05:39
Gordon Brown is a traitor to the Scottish people. The union he speaks of is long gone and the union he hopes for is sinking rapidly from the Scots Psyche. No rhetoric or blatant lie is going to change that any day soon...
102

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:08:03
112 Indeed, that is what most delusionals say when their claim to be Jesus/ Alexander the Great/ Mickey Mouse etc is challenged. Keep that tin-foil hat on Gordon. 'They' may be watching you again.
103

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:08:56
11 Gordon.

Do tell, why is 95% of oil bearing acreage ALREADY under SCOTTISH JURISDICTION?
104

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

30/12/2007 14:11:08
#100

I note that your post, allegedly from Bannockburn, is timed at 13:47 .

It seems a wee bit of a pity that you did not get in in some 33 minutes earlier, then it could have been both ironic as well as risible.
105

Scotsman in Dublin,

30/12/2007 14:12:06
Get lost Gordon!
I lost any respect I had for this man after the childish way he behaved when the SNP won the election. What happened to the man who signed the Claim of right in Thatchers' eighties defending "the sovereign right of the Scottish people". I guess its ok to be a nationalist Gordon, when you have no chance of getting power in Westminster but once you are in power the union flag suddenly keeps you warm at night.
106

Richardinho,

30/12/2007 14:15:53
We are often told that the union is like a marriage and that we should be wary of a 'messy divorce'.

Thing is when one partner (Westminster) doesn't speak to the other one and constantly belittles and undermines them, then divorce quickly becomes the only option.
107

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:18:29
118 Chairman Gordon

I fear you are missing the point. Scotland and England have separate legal systems, courts etc. Scottish law pertains in Scotand and English law in England. Scottish law pertains in 95% of oil bearing waters of the Nroth Sea, because the UK accpeted that they are geographically/ legally Scottish.

It is practised daily - Scottish law pertains there. The Piper Alpa inquiry was held under Scottish legal juridiction,. Health and safety cases involving North Sea facilities are held in Scottsih courts. Following now?
108

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:20:49
118 Do tell us Gordon, why Scottish law pertains in 95% of oil bearing acreage of the North Sea rather than English law? A criminal offence, say for example a Labour MSP receiving illegal donations on an oil rig there, would be prosecuted by the procurator in a Scottish court. Any thoughts why this is Gordon?
109

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:22:38
124 Ricahrdino, well said. And Gordon Broon, with his bottling and illegal donations, is displaying premature elections and abusive behaviour. We need shot of them.
110

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:23:05
128 Gordon - see 126. Any thoughts?
111

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 30/12/2007 14:26:35
Having a Scotsman as UK prime minister ought to satisfy many narrow minded nationalists. The fact it doesn't says more about them than the man in question. Whatever ones personal opinion and political leanings are one should recognise that at least Gordon Brown has the courage and the ability to reach such a position in mainstream politics, rather than spend time stirring up the nationalist separatist
anti-rest-of-the-UK type fervour that Salmond and his cronies are determined to do in the name of progress for our small country.

In truth Scotsmen like Brown have been the true inspiration for the rest of us, not little narrow minded parochial types like Salmond.
112

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:28:14
131 Gordon. Alas it does. A criminal offence committed within 95% of oil bearing acreage of the North Sea would be (and are) prosecuted under Scottish juridisction, not English. Why is this? The Piper Alpha inquiry was held under Scottish law? Why? Health and Safety cases are dealt with, for rigs outside the 12 miles, in Scottish courts. Why?
113

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:30:14
131 Or you may like to read teh UK Government take on this. The title "Scottish Law APplies" may give you a clue....

"HSE - OFFSHORE: Operations Notice 3 - Scottish Law applies.

www.hse.gov.uk/offshore/notices/on
114

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:34:30
140 UK govermnet website - see above "Scottish Law Applies" in relation to all HSE matters in area under Scottish legal juridiction.

With reagrd to Piper Alpha - you asked for one example, I gave it to you. Yet you seem not to want to accept or respond to it. How odd. Why was the Piper Alpha inquiry held under Scottish law if, as you claim, Scottish law does not apply to offshore oil installations. You seem to be taking a wee right angled spin past all logic.
115

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:36:38
141 Gordon. Look at Hse.gov.uk

From the UK Government website:

"3.The United Kingdom Offshore Oil and Gas Industry Association (Oil & Gas UK) has agreed that operators will notify Chief Constables of the location of installations over which they exercise police jurisdiction. The current arrangements are that:

Grampian Police exercise jurisdiction over all installations in Scottish Waters of the North Sea above 55 o 50' North. Scottish Law applies. "

http://www.hse.gov.uk/offshore/notices/on_03.htm

Now Gordon, please tell us how Scottish law does not apply? And please explain why 95% of oil bearing acreage is deemed, by the UK, to fall under Scotland's Legal system?
116

Geoff,

30/12/2007 14:39:36
93 Niko-what do you want to know about apartheid? I dont understand your question.

98 danielrober-you and i are probably on the same page about all of this - I said u owed us because you said we owed you-just a natural patriotic knee jerk really. Who knows who owes who-the accounting is just too difficult. By the way which war did "We" start and lose twice? "We" won the first Anglo-Boer War and lost the second(1899-1901) although ironically "we" won the politics with the Union of South Africa in 1910. I put "we" in parentheses because it is only recently that differences between English speaking Saffers and afrikaaners have been largely resolved/become irrelevant. Remember "we" fought on your side in both wars!
Mum and dad left Britain for better lives in the "colonies" as did millions of others from Britain and Ireland. The tax didnt really come into it.
I dont think SA is "always looking for someone else to blame" Maybe that is the attitude in some communities here. Britain is generally admired in South Africa by people from all communities although we love to clobber you on the sporting field which is most of the time!
117

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:43:07
144 You may also want to look at "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999 is a statutory instrument of the parliament of the United Kingdom" which defines what parts of the North Sea Scottish law applies in. Weird, if as you say it doesn't....

"The territorial waters thus defined as Scottish waters come under the jurisdiction of Scots law, and are also used for defining the area of operation of the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, and other Scottish Executive agencies and public bodies. This is, for example, of importance to the Scottish fishing industry, the North Sea oil industry, and in the competing claims for the resources of the Rockall Trough.

The territorial waters thus defined as not being Scottish waters come under the jurisdiction of either English law or Northern Ireland law."
118

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:45:39
148 Gordon. Now you are being silly. The delineation between Scots, English and Norwegian legal juridiction is clearly agreed. look at a wee map.

We do all not hwoever that you kept saying that Scottish law does not apply in the North Sea, and I have given you legal precedent and two UK government web sites which say it does..... That you fail to withdraw your incorrect claims or address these points just shows you to be an ill informed, opinionated buffoon whose opinions are worng in fact and law, and show you to be incapable of reasoned discussion.
119

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:47:08
148 here's a map

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/99112601.gif
120

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 14:48:04
Gordon awaiting the next transmission from Mars

http://www.admit-one.net/webimages/foilhat.jpg
121

Geoff,

30/12/2007 14:48:27
134 Lib for Life-agree with most of what you say. I think Gordon Brown was a great Chancellor and is a hardworking and decent man. I dont think he is a good Prime minister-he lacks the charisma that is(unfortunately) necessary for the job. Scots in all fields have contributed to Great Britain out of all proportion to their numbers-it should indeed be a source of pride. I also can not understand why he is insulted and vilified so intensely in this forum. Actually I do understand-anybody who does not see the world as SOME of the Nationalists on this forum see it is a troll,numpty,idiot,moron etc etc
122

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:51:07
153 Gordon

you brought up jurisdictions in the North sea and said Scottish law does not apply. The UK government in a statutory instrument of parliament in 1999 defined where Scottish law applies, the UK government HSE website states regulations that Scottish law applies, and legal precedent shows that Scottish law applies.

Now. would you like to address or repeat your claims about Scottish legal jurisdiction in the North Sea?
123

Richardinho,

30/12/2007 14:51:47
#155

Maybe something to do with the fact that he insults us by refusing to speak to the Scottish Government.
124

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:52:42
131 Chairman Gordon says "Scottish law doesn't pertain "

The Uk parliament says it does, the HSE says it does, Scottish courts say it does.

Come on now Gordon, just admit your error and retract your false statements.
125

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:55:25
157 The area in which Scottish law applies is set out in the parliamnetary statute of 1999:
------------------------------------------------

Boundaries - internal waters and territorial sea
3. For the purposes of the Scotland Act 1998, the boundaries between waters which are to be treated as internal waters or territorial sea of the United Kingdom adjacent to Scotland and those which are not, shall be-



(a) off the east coast of Great Britain, a line joining the co-ordinates set out in Part I of the Schedule to this Order, and

(b) off the west coast of Great Britain a line joining,


(i) the co-ordinates set out in Section 1 of Part II of that Schedule, and then

(ii) the seaward limit of the United Kingdom territorial sea, and then

(iii) the co-ordinates set out in Section 2 of Part II of that Schedule.

Scottish law pertains on that map within the rted line and above the line separating SCottish waters from English one/ Ni ones.
126

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 14:56:06
158
Spot on.
160
Hoos poos
127

Geoff,

sa 30/12/2007 14:57:30
News Flash-Methalions is mentioned in the Honours addendum-His Grace Baronet Meths of Kintyre OBE!
(put in a word for you after yesterdays lament!)
128

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 14:57:42
160, 165 Hoos Poos.
129

Steve,

Bo'ness 30/12/2007 15:00:15
Firstly we are told that SNP HQ calls up independence supporters at all hours, and sends them to comment on politics stories on newspaper websites!!!! HA, what garbage. And this guy wants to be taken seriously.

And then, right on cue, we have the Liberal idiot at #134 claiming that the SNP hate the rest of the UK, and are planning some sort of Tartan Blitzkreig. In his sad little mind, goose stepping hordes of Salmond-Jugend are massed along the border at this very minute, in camouflaged kilts. First stop Berwick, zen, ze world!!!!

For these are the confused and warped minds of hardened unionists. They know their arguments are ridiculous, so have resorted to sheer pantomime in an attempt to justify themselves. PATHETIC!
130

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 15:03:30
168
Salmond youth LOL.
The Smoltstafell.
131

Richardinho,

30/12/2007 15:04:20
The main difference between SNP and Labour party members of course is that the latter are almost completely disillusioned with the party leadership. I've never met one who wasn't. mostly the labour party now rely on a decaying system of patronage to try and motivate their people now.
132

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 15:05:59
168
Would the Salmond Jugend wear Broonshirts?
133

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 15:13:58
174
"Brown has said previously that he would work with Salmond "in the best interests of Scotland" but it appears he now wants to take a tougher line."

And will it be the people of Scotland who will suffer for this "tougher line"?
134

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 15:20:19
179
If you make very unlikely accusations,be prepared to be hoist by your own petard.
135

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 15:22:43
179
And swearing at a woman?You are no gentleman Sir.

So you are a Tory then?
136

Steve,

Bo'ness 30/12/2007 15:22:59
It's the classic bunker mentality of the loser, and I suppose in some ways it's human nature:- Demonise the opposition at all costs. Make wild, ridiculous, and malicious accusations.

I wonder if these guys actually beleive what they say any more, or if they are just desperately trying to sway neutral minds towards them, against all odds.
It's quite pitiful really.

You wonder how they clung to power for so long, without being rumbled.

137

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 15:30:47
184
Like this?

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/320000/320033UaDY_w.jpg
138

Lastsocialist,

Paris, France. 30/12/2007 15:42:38
Forget Gordon, if Cameron gets into No.10 that really would be the end of the Union (and the Labour Party). The Scots will never stand another Tory government in Westminster. So let's all pray for a big win by unwitting SNP lackey David Cameron.
139

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 15:48:27
174 Chairmain Gordon

like this? "Diamond Offshore Drilling (UK) Ltd was fined £75000 at Aberdeen Sheriff's Court on 7 March following the death of oil rig worker, Peter Gray on the Diamond Princess offshore rig. ...
www.hse.gov.uk/press/2002/e02050.htm - 12k "

So depsite the UK parliament statutes, precendents and the UK government agencies such as HSE saying Scottish law applies, and Grampian police being named as the investigating authority, and procesutions under Scottish law, would you care to comment further on your post at 131 that "Scottsih law does not apply"?
140

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 15:49:30
192 I think you are a foolish snuffling truffle hound with abnormmally small paws which allow you to type. I defy anyone to prove me wrong.
141

IainGlasgow,

30/12/2007 15:53:01
What GB can't seem to grasp is that there are no "British values" that make Britain unique in the world. I throw the gauntlet down to unionists to tell me one single thing that is quintessentially and uniquely BRITISH (not Scottish, English or Welsh) that the Irish and everyone else in the world are not part of that is worth saving and would dissapear with Scotland becoming a sovereign state (btw i don't consider the pound sterling a valid answer). A nation is a cultural entity. The UK is not a nation, not a country but a political entity as is the EU. Where do you draw the line in terms of how much power lies where before you have a country?
142

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 15:56:25
195 Gordon. Clearly this prosecution in a Scottsih court supports your contention that Scottish law does not apply in the North Sea. As does the Piper Alpha inquiry held in a Scottish court, the HSE UK Government webiste which states "Scottish Law Applies", as does the UK Parliament Statute which states "Scottsih Law Applies".

Tell us old crocus, do you enjoy being laughed at as your arguments are filleted or are you just a silly old billy?
143

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 15:58:54
198 As you share 99.9% of your DNA with a Turk or a German, about 98% with a chimpanmzee and about 60% with an onion, what does this prove? That you are are Turkish onion born of a chimp?
144

Born to roughneck,

30/12/2007 15:59:54
Any news on Wendy's and her half witted brother's impending chat with Plod??
This story seems to have faded from view!
Maybe Mike Watson can offer some advice in getting through a short spell of porridge.
145

IainGlasgow,

30/12/2007 16:02:06
#198

Maybe so but that same gene is shared by the Irish and a considerable number of people in France and in Spain where that branch of the Celts previously migrated from. Even if it is a unique trait, as far is I'm aware there will not be any major genetic mutation that would take place to alter that if the UK becomes separate soverign states.
146

Diogenes of Sinope,

John Smith House 30/12/2007 16:03:13
Please read in today's 'Scottish' edition of The Sunday Times, an article (page 8) by Tom Gordon "Callaghan hid oil wealth from Scots".

As with the McCrone report, further archives released under the 30 year rule are reported to detail deception by the 1970s UK government, in order to hide the true wealth from Scotland's oil. Here are just a few quotes from the article:

“In essence, the proposal is that offshore profits should be allocated to a new region specially created for the purpose rather than being associated with the existing contiguous regions.”

"The government documents, released by the National Archives of Scotland, show that the economic region was created in 1977 to prevent Scotland’s gross domestic product (GDP) almost doubling overnight, fuelling support for independence.”

“The great majority of the profit would accrue to Scotland, and would represent almost a doubling of the Scottish GDP, which in 1974 had been about £6.5 billion.”

“Callaghan approved the proposal, but insisted it be announced in a low-key press release timed to minimise plans for a devolution referendum and the establishment of a Scottish assembly.”

I do not let anyone who deceives me handle my personal finances. Why on earth would anyone entrust the economic future of Scotland to Westminster?
147

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:04:10
210 The boat would sink if Kimba was on it

202 - The HSe and UK Government web site which state "Scottish Law APplies" are 2007. Grampian police are today empowered as the investigating authoirty. I fear you are just a silly troll intent on looking foolish or just too humiliated to admit your error at 131 "Scottish Law does not apply in North Sea". Do tell us old bean, if it applied in 1990 and 2002, and the UK Gov says it applies today, when did it stop applying? Some time between 2002 and now? Tell us when. And if it did stop applying which legal jurisdiction now applies according to you?
148

IainGlasgow,

30/12/2007 16:05:04
On a recent visit to Dublin I was quite moved to see a self-confident aspiring nation that does not need to wear its nationality on its sleeve or sell it in tacky shops. No cuddly leprechauns or fiddler dolls and none of the wha's like us and cringe we have in Scotland.
149

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:06:29
206 Gordon - you are not vey good at aswering plain questions. You share over 99% of your DNA identity with a Nigerian or a German. You share over 50% with a banana. As you said that some people of Britain share some Celtic genetics and this was important in some way, I ask given you share over 99% of your DNA with a Swede, does this make you Swedish or is this important to Scotlands politics and economics?
150

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:07:07
212 Gordon. The website and study you reference is laughably out of date. It proves nothing. Do you have references up to date?
151

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:07:36
212 So what?
152

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:08:21
212 A sample of Glasgow population today would show sizeable Asian genetic "Pools" I think you would find. And a good thing too.
153

Lastsocialist,

Still Paris, France 30/12/2007 16:08:47
#190- Living five years in Scotland and coming from the North of England (a region far more screwed over by Westminster than Scotland has ever been - we never got your weighted subsidies). Anybody in the UK has a right to be interested in and comment on Scottish politics because our democratic rights and tax money are involved).
154

Richard,

West Lothian 30/12/2007 16:09:43
Has nobody got a spare door the idiot Chairman Gordon can guard?
155

Geoff,

SA 30/12/2007 16:11:55
196 Ian Glasgow-tell me one single thing that is quintessentially and uniquely Scottish!! Nation States are all artificial constructs-you might think that Scotland is a Nation and Britain an "Entity". I would think that to a greater or lesser degree that the majority of the population of the UK disagree with you. The United Kingdom of great britain and Northern Ireland-Britain for short-is recognised internationally as a Nation-miliions of people the world over regard themselves as British or of British stock.That may stick in your throat but it is a simple undeniable fact. From over 400 years past the modern BRITISH nation saw its beginnings and has grown with contributions from many cultures. If u want to be pedantic tell me where the Scots came from originally? There is a huge cultural overlap between the peoples of the 4 home nations.There are many regional nuances but we share more in common than those things that differentiate us.
156

IainGlasgow,

30/12/2007 16:14:16
#213

Defining nationhood on the basis of a gene pool is a potentially dangerous route to go down. On one level it manifests in the white supremacist views of the BNP and the KKK but in its most sinister form has manifested in Hitlers vision of a pure Arian super race and the horrors inflicted upon Jews in his name. As far as I'm concerned an Asian or Black or any other origin person born in Scotland has as much right to claim themselves Scottish (or British) as me. I wonder what Chairman Gordon thinks.
157

Lastsocialist,

Paris, France 30/12/2007 16:15:49
#223 - You're obviously a bigot, and one of the many reasons why Scotland remains socially backward.
158

Richard,

Broxburn 30/12/2007 16:16:11

Geoff,SA

196 Ian Glasgow-tell me one single thing that is quintessentially and uniquely Scottish!!

The Scottish cringe?
159

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:19:39
220 Chairman Gordon

you said at 131 "Scottish law does not apply in the North Sea." The following disprove you:

The 1999 UK Parliamnet statute says exactly that it does and where.
The current UK Government website say it does.
The HSE Website says it does with specific regulations stating "Scottish Law applies".
Grampian Police are today the named investigating authority for areas set out in the statute.
I have provided you with a legal inquiry and a prosecution carried out in Scottish courts for off shore incidents.

Would you care to answer:

- if Scottish law doesnot apply, what does? ANd why were prosecutions carried out. And why do the HSE current regulations say it does? Are they lying?
- when did Scottish law stop applying?

Or perhaps you just prefer looking like a total buffoon?
160

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:20:12
231 The research is totally out of date and therefore useless. It proves nothing.
161

Geoff,

South Africa 30/12/2007 16:20:17
196 IanGlasgow-Colonel Blimp,the Union Jack,the Queen,the tea break,the BBC,Gibraltar,the Pith helmet,greasy chips,warm beer,Gordon Brown...
162

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:21:50
228 Ah, so an HSE regulation currently in force (2007) is out of date with reagrd to legal juridisction, but a two tear old book i snot? I find your "arguments" hard to follow.

The book was published two years ago - when was the research published that the book refers to? Kind of like me referencing a book on research conducted in 1852 and claiming it to be up to date, no?
163

Geoff,

30/12/2007 16:23:01
230 Spook-Long may the Mongrel prosper...!!!
164

Geoff,

30/12/2007 16:23:01
230 Spook-Long may the Mongrel prosper...!!!
165

danielrober,

30/12/2007 16:26:04
146 Geoff

You realy should read some books not published under appartite. You guys lost both the turn of the century wars. This is a fact of history, outside of SA. The fact that you belive you won one out of two makes war sound like a sporting match. Its not. You guys blew it and lost both.

The UK government had to redirect 250,000 immigrants and billions of pounds in modern day money, from Austrialia, to rebuild the mess you left behind.

As i said, this is a domestic democratic issue and debate. Its about seeing UK tax payers, get a better deal, no mater where they come from inculding recent SA immigrents.

P.S. I was talking about hard cash, real money owned on the 'Kendal' power station and others. That's not even including all the steam train you guys did not pay for.
166

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:26:17
240 Indeed. An amusing buffoon. i love it when unionists like him are on. Makes them look like a bunch of wandered eejits hehehe

And remember, a representative sample of the genetics of Glasgow would not show any Asian genetics because "evolution doesn't work that quickly" hehehe. Works quicker than CHairman Gordon's brain. Poor thing.
167

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:27:34
241 yes. One wonders why the company taken to court and fined in 2002 under Scottish law you say doesn't apply didn't think of that defence. Clearly their lawyers were not as brilliant as you. Oh dear.....
168

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:32:29
241 Gordon

I note you have still not answered:

- what law applies in the North sea areas listed in the UK statutes if not Scottish?
- when Scottish law stopped applying?
169

IainGlasgow,

30/12/2007 16:36:10
#227

And what has British unity done to rid us of it?
170

Richard,

Broxburn 30/12/2007 16:38:39
All together now! "Let's all laugh at GORDON"... "GORDON IS MORON, GORDON IS A MORON"!
171

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:44:56
251 Gordon

are you trying to appear totally ridiculous?

AT 131 you said" Scottish law does not apply in the North Sea". You have been given UK parliament statutes, HSE regulations, two court cases and the UK Gov reference saying it does.

You asked for one example of a court case under Scottish law. I gave you two.

You now say that as the example was 2002 it is out of date.

Do tell, when after 2002 Scottish law ceased to apply and what replaced it?

I fear you are looking more and more ludicrous by the posting. I like this.
172

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 16:46:24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3rD8fUmbRA
173

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:46:37
253 Ok. Having had another good chuckle at Gordon and his debating "skills"..... Here's Gordon....

I am right. So there. No, you are. Not playing. Boo Hoo. Not answering. Head in sand. Off to cry....
174

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:47:25
257 I await answers;

- when did Scottish law stop applying in the North Sea?

- what does apply of not Scottish law?
175

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:50:29
261 Yes. Happy to discuss your inability to answer simple questions. My you have acquitted yourself well today. So, not answering:

- when Scottish law stopped applying?
- what law does apply if not Scottish?

Was you who started on the "Scottish law does not apply in the North Sea".....

Why don't you just admit your error? Or are you hell-bent on appearing totally foolish? Either way is fine.
176

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:51:04
263 Anything more than a couple of years is out of date. you said so.
177

Richard,

Broxburn 30/12/2007 16:51:41

Chairman Gordon,Bannockburn

Hopefully you'll decide to emigrate come independence, thus raising the Scottish national I.Q. average, in one fell swoop?
178

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 16:52:20
263 Ps. I don't care about the genetics of British / Scotish or anything else. All humans are over 99% identical. You rpoint was totally fatuous.

I await, as I am sure we all do, your explanation of why a sample of Glasgow's population would not show Asian genetics as you stated?
179

Richard,

Broxburn 30/12/2007 16:56:00
Wanted, one door for an incredibly thick doorman to guard.
180

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:00:01
274 Gordon

you have been a court case in 2002 prosecuted under SCottish law re. an HSE violation on an offshore rig.

You have also been given UK statute showing Scottish legal juridiction, with precise coordinates listed.

Please admit your error, or explain when after 2002 Scottish law ceased to apply and what law now applies.

181

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 17:00:19
#265 - I think you and Gordon are missing the point here.

Scottish law applies to the UK section of the North Sea because that is what has been decided by the British government. It is, therefore, an internal British issue. If we are to accept this, then we also must accept that the British government has decided that all North Sea oil revenue is ex-regio - in other words a British resource not owned by any specific part of the UK. You cannot pick and choose whioch parts of UK law you like: you either accepty it all or you accept that everything is up for negotiation come independence.
182

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:01:15
276 Hehehe

someone has been imbibing of SSO me thinks
183

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:02:18
278 ALl evolution is based on "one off local mutations" - DNA exists and mutates only in single organisms, not en masse. Evolution merely favours one off mutations that are successful.
184

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:03:20
279 SO you agree Scottish law applies to most of the oil bearing acreage?
185

Richard,

Broxburn 30/12/2007 17:09:57
Anyway what manner of Scot is it, that would wish away Scotland's natural resources via a (misguided & imaginary) legal challenge?

Quisling anyone?
186

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 17:11:19
#282 - I have no idea. In the great scheme of things, however, it is irrelevant. It is an internal British issue and creates no precedent, especially as any negotiations about the break up of the UK will not be between Scotland and "Westminster" but Scotland and England - the two signatories to the Act of Union.

It is the case, for example, that most of the revenue generated from the North Sea comes not from a tax on extration but from a special corporation tax levied on the companies doing the extracting. Corporation tax is paid from the office in which a company is officially domiciled and the UK domicile of almost all the companies currently operating in the North Sea is London. This will not change post-independence unless the Scottish government tears up existing contracts and insists on new ones, an action which would raise a whole raft of new issues under international law.
187

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:11:54
285 CG

you asked if i was willing/ capable of discussing matters other than oil. Given that we are discussing your shocking ignorance of genetics then clearly I am. So, Yes.

A sample representative of Glasgow's current population would indeed show significant genetics of Asian extraction. Nothing to do with how long they have been there, just a refelection of numbers there now.

Now pelase answer my questions. Why were prosecutions made in 2002 under Scots law if Scottish law does not apply? When did it cease to apply and what applies now?
188

,

30/12/2007 17:17:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
189

Richard,

Broxburn 30/12/2007 17:21:01

Chairman Gordon,Bannockburn,

You're a bit of a deluded fool aren't you?

You're just a blow hard with a little learning, and even less comprehension, a dangerous thing indeed!
190

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:21:46
292 Indeed. English pillock was also "Stirling Sentinel" of Stirling..... CG is of bannockbrun... both are vacuous numpties totally incapable of debate or answeering simple questions. Good for a laugh at though, me likes them on here.

No answers still CG? Shame.
191

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:23:20
300 Hoos poos. snuck that one in
192

IainGlasgow,

30/12/2007 17:24:56
I read this on a plaque in the window of the GPO building in Dublin. Something that should be an inspiration to us all and perhaps Gordon Brown should take the time to read. The men who made the declaration (one of them in a wheelchair) were mercilessly gunned down by soldiers of our "Great" British army.

"We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people. In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty; six times during the last three hundred years they have asserted it to arms. Standing on that fundamental right and again asserting it in arms in the face of the world, we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State, and we pledge our lives and the lives of our comrades-in-arms to the cause of its freedom, of its welfare, and of its exaltation among the nations."
193

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:25:04
297 ps, I have cloned and mutated a human gene (a not uncommon undertaking andn ot one that bestows an expertise in the vast field of genetics). How many genes have you cloned, mutated and expressed, just out of interest?
194

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:26:50
304 Chairman Gordon.

Still no answers? Why prosecutions took place in 2002 in Scottish courts if Scottish law doesn't apply? When did it change? What law applies? Is looking almost as if you are just incapable of answering the questions, having been proved totally wrong? I have asked 7 times an no answers. This is fun.
195

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 17:27:16
#305 - Who is denying the Scots the right to self determination?
196

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:27:48
307 So if no one has been prosecuted for a particular crime for 5 years the law is out of date? mmm, interesting
197

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 17:28:12
#309 - It may be fun, but is totally irrelevant I am afraid.
198

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 17:28:16
297
Hmm.
If you go far back as,say two thousand years ago,there are soldiers from Syria,Germany,Spain and Italy,stationed in Scotland.These are the ones that we know about.Do you think they didn't add to the gene pool?
199

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:31:08
314 mmm, Chairman Gordon

still no answers?

Shame
200

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:33:37
312 Border Scot

Chairman Gordon stated at 131 taht Scottish law does not apply over most of the oil bearing area of the Noorth Sea.

Uk poarliamnetary statute in 1999 spells oyt that Scottish law does apply and gives the coordinates. The HSE and UK Government website explicitly state that SCottish law applies. Prosecutions are made under Scottish Law.

Negotiation would indeed take place over sovereignty.

That is not the quetion we are dealing with. We are dealing with Cahirman Gordons totally false assertions. He should withdraw them or answer a few simple questions on them, no?
201

Richard,

Broxburn 30/12/2007 17:33:40
Chairman Gordon,
Bannockburn

#307/314 - My god, now he's talking to himself!
202

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:35:08
316 You said above that human genetics can be traced back to Africa 10,000s of years ago (true). Why have these not been diluted but gene pool variations 2000 years ago have? Are you just a gibbering fool?
203

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:35:33
322 No answers still? Were the questions too hard for you?
204

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 17:35:35
#278

What drivel!

Is there no unionist contributor capable of making a coherent , sensible contribution proclaiming the cause of Unionism?

It has been too easy to defeat the knuckle draggers such as you and your pal AM2.

When will the first team take the field?

Wendy no more, Nicol no more!

Are you relying upon Aunty Annabelle?
205

IainGlasgow,

30/12/2007 17:36:02
#305 All the rank hypocrites who vote for the Labour party that sold them out, but then go and sing songs about the Irish declaration at Celtic Park
206

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:39:46
326 yes indeed, when you said Scots law does not apply in the North Sea and the HSE website say "Scottish Law applies" and the UK Gov Website says "Scottsih LAw applies" and I have given you court cases that APPLIED Scottish law and as Grampian police are the named force for investigating in the North Sea, and as the 1999 UK parliament statute spells it out.

Indeed, I feel I have been unable to prove you wrong.

9th time of asking:

- if Scots law does not apply why/ how were prosecutions made under it in 2002?
- when did it stop applying?
- what law does apply?

207

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 17:39:46
#320 - That is between you and him: my point is that whether he is right or you are right it does not actually matter very much. If we all agree about that, why carry on such a pointless argument?
208

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/12/2007 17:40:55
Briton remains one country, with its indigenous population all bearing Britonic genes and sharing language, culture traditions and history as well. Scotland is an artificial nation concept, with a very brief history. (For which years was the present land mass of Scotland actually united under one rule? What proportion is that of the thirty thousand years of Briton?) Only muddle headed numpties seriously believe that people of good will can't sort out differences within the union, rather than breaking it. Talk about babies and bathwater!

Who's to say that Orkney and Shetland wouldn't then demand to go their own ways, taking certain assets with them?

Calamity Brown has my support in this.
209

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:41:06
331 Yes, perhaps. The African element is an "evolutionary" bottleneck - a near extinction that reduced the human population to as low as a few thousand, in Africa. All humans are descendants of this group.
210

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 17:41:14
329
Did you teach any remedial classes Meths?(For it is I Conan)
211

,

30/12/2007 17:42:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
212

Richard,

Broxburn 30/12/2007 17:45:25

Border Scot,

But what is important is ownership of said oil and Scotland would own 95% of it come independence, it being in our territorial waters.
213

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:50:41
346 Heheheh hoos poos

did i pass the test? am a molecular man so to speak, not some woolly historian....
214

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:51:46
351 CG. How very strange. Still no answers to my questions..... one would think you can't answer them are are just too insecure to admit your error at 131.

Col B, 340 - go on then?
215

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 17:55:12
#334 - Scotland would not own the oil, the companies that extract it would. The issue is whether Scotland would have the right to the taxation revenues to be paid by the extractors. That is a far more complicated question and will be settled following what I imagine will be long and difficult negotiations between representatives of the Scottish and English people.
216

Steve,

Bo'ness 30/12/2007 17:55:46
Oh dear.
Now the unionists (who equate the Scottish independence movement with Nazism!) are bringing genetics into their argument. An argument they have clearly lost.

Note to unionists:
when in a deep hole, best to stop digging.

217

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 17:59:27
357 hehehehe

Poor Chairman Gordon. Stil can't answer some simple questions. Honestly, I am beginning to think he is just an opinionated pontificating buffoon with very little knowledge of what he spouts on and a childish inability to admit an error which is blindingly plain for all to see. He is good value for money though (only coz it is free to watch him disintegrating on here when he posts).
218

Steve,

Bo'ness 30/12/2007 18:01:27
#335.
It's quite easy when you think about it. Scotland draws tax revenue from the oil in Scottish waters. England draws tax revenue from the oil in English waters. If these boundaries need to be defined by the UN or whoever, then let them be.
Why do you see big problems when nobody else does?
Oh yes, I forgot.
219

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 18:02:55
362 I think DIE used to say "how very dare you"
220

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 30/12/2007 18:10:37
#257. And I love it when you are on your security duty and prove to us that brothers should not be allowed to shag their sisters. Should you not be checking for intruders with your big yellow jacket on, what a dick head you are.



ALBA GU BRATH

































































:o)



221

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 18:12:26
370 Hen Broon hinted. hehehe
222

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 18:14:11
#361 - Ok, so Scotland gets about £1 billion a year and England a few 10s of millions. But who gets the corporation tax which currently accounts for the vast majority of North Sea oil revenues? This is paid by the extracting companies, most of which are currently domiciled for UK purposes in London? Does Scotland tear up the contracts they currently have, so breaking international law; or do we work out some kind of agreement with the English? What bargaining levers will we have if we want to do this? If we insist on this money, what will stop the English levying taxes on Scottish companies to make up the short fall?

Just because we want something to happen does not mean that it will happen, especiually when we will be negotiating with a larger and much more powerful entity. That is the real world.
223

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 18:16:38
365
Or as Barbour wrote,
"In hell condampnyt mot he be."

Only kidding CG;-)
224

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 30/12/2007 18:18:35
Thankyou Scotsman at last for recognising the tremendous asset Scotland has in Alex Salmond, and the SNP. 2007 was truly a momentous year for our nation and I and millions of other Scots intend to see that the momentum is maintained until independence from this dreadfull union is achieved.


The number of people, not just native Scots who are now on board and getting on board the independence express is surging and will continue to do so as people realise that we can run Scotland for the better. Not run it into the ground as the Unionists on these forums do,as do their self serving spineless masters. We will take our place amongst the independent nations of this millenium and never look back.


IT IS TIME..





ALBA GU BRATH.



A GREAT NEW YEAR TO ALL.



















:o):o):o):o):o):o):o):o):o):o):o):o):o):o)
225

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 18:21:15
377 i thought it was called a Grey Friar?
226

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 18:23:11
373mmmm not sure? Give me hint - when roughly? What type of spell? DIE never returned.
227

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 18:25:47
381
Think voodoo
228

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 18:27:17
382 that you do, so well?
229

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 18:27:31
#379 - Have you seen today's YouGov poll in the Sunday Times? Labour has a double digit lead over the SNP and 73% of Scots surveyed say they are proud to be British - a rise of 10% or so in the last 12 months.

Maybe it's not quite time yet ;-)
230

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 18:34:58
In the pledge made in his New year Message to campaign in defence of the Union, the Prime Minister has just made a public admission that the United Kingdom has an uncertain future!



231

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 18:36:08
384 Ooh, you must have missed the "super poll" averaging all ten latest polls, showing the SNP ahead of labour for Westminster (up 17% , yes 17%!!) and double digit lead for Scottish Elections.

Polls, smolls, no interest in polls really. Elections are what matter - did the SNP not win the last Scottish parliament and local elections?
232

Richard,

Broxburn 30/12/2007 18:36:19
# 375
Border Scot,

Good point but I wouldn't worry inordinately about it, we could nationalize the oil fields or re negotiate the contracts and have the oil companies re-locate their H.Q's. to Edinburgh?

Anyway Alex Salmond isn't worried and he knows the oil business?
233

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 18:36:44
#387 - Nice to meet you. I am an instinctive unionist who can see some of the arguments for independence but has problems with what I regard as the inherent narrowness of nationalism, the distortions of British history so many nationalists instinctively spout and the negativity of a message that states we are not capable of asserting our interests within the Union.

Basically, I am open to persuasion but have yet to be persuaded. I am coming to the rapid conclusion that forums such as these change no minds; they harden existing opinions.
234

Diogenes of Sinope,

John Smith House 30/12/2007 18:38:12
#375

"Just because we want something to happen does not mean that it will happen, especiually when we will be negotiating with a larger and much more powerful entity. That is the real world."

Border Scot, this sounds like the sort of fear-tactic stuff John Reid was uttering around this time last year. Remember, might is not always right - a few recent examples - USA in Vietnam, UK and Iceland in the 'Cod War', USSR in Afghanistan, etc.

Why would there be such rancour from Westminster over a resource that we are told is almost depleted – unless, of course, this is yet another untruth from those who wish to deny Scotland independence?
235

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 18:41:36
#388 - Westminster will be irrelevant because, as you say, the end of the Union Treaty will mean the end of the UK and the end of Westminster's remit.

North Sea oil tax has never been recognised as a Scottish resource and so cannot be considered as a Scottish asset until that is agreed by all negotiating parties.

Obviously, if the UK comes to an end, all UK assets and obligations will have to be distributed among its successor states. This is not the issue, the issue is how the distribution will take place.
236

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 18:44:43
#395 - And if the oil is not a diminishing resource how will it be in England's interests to relinquish all interest in the tax revenue it generates? How do you persuade the English to hand t over to Scotland without taking action to recoup the shortfall?

On the basis that you are not seriously advocating armed conflict, I would be interested to know how it will happen. Seriously.
237

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 18:46:14
393
All the best trenches are taken:-)
238

Robbie 2,

A beautiful Kiwi morning 30/12/2007 18:47:56
78 Geoff,
"Robbie2 NZ-any relation to Robbie1?"
Hi Geoff - yep one and the same! - Couldn't sign on as simply 'Robbie' & so new 'pen-name'.
"Where the hell have you been?" Still glance at forums but not really posting since May election although bandied a few words on Biblical matters. Couldn’t convert any to heathenism!!!
Many reasons (gardening and life plus so much humour, politics and knowledge on the web)
How's the dangerous kayaking/canoeing? - All limbs still attached?
Did you glance at link at post #59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVbobdL3yi0&feature=related
It gives me an indication of a huge Western problem - ignorance or/and disillusionment with politics.
Many Scots vote (unfortunately too many don’t) because of traditional family trends. The media, Geoff, has been staunchly Unionists (ownership and advertisers) and the history books well! if you every wanted proof of a unequal Union - read a ‘British ‘ history book; England, Britain \are considered synonymous and still today every day we hear (come on as you must) of England and England when Britain, UK and British is correct.
Unfortunately we won’t correct these errors here and I found some of the ‘verbal violence’ somewhat personal and a bit on the rude side. How’s Bill from Dunblane , the Wiz, wee shuie and the old Unionist contingent?
We’re away for the New Year and so I wish you and all the other forum poster the very best for the coming New Year. Orra best Geoff.
239

HEN BROON 5,

30/12/2007 18:51:57
YouGovR
YouGov Survey Results
Sample Size: 1111
Fieldwork: 28th - 30th November 2007
Scottish National Party Total North East
Scotland
Highlands &
Islands South Scotland West Scotland Central Mid-Scotland &
Fife Lothians Glasgow
All Scottish adults 1111 146 110 168 83 159 150 191 105
Unweighted Sample 1111 145 118 173 90 147 151 187 100
% % % % % % % % %
Westminster Headline Voting Intention
Lab 32 28 32 22 51 42 31 27 38
SNP 32 37 25 41 27 29 34 27 37
Con 19 16 20 21 11 20 22 23 13
Lib Dem 12 17 18 14 8 3 8 17 7
Other 4 2 5 2 3 6 5 7 5
Westminster Other Parties Voting Intention
Green 2 2 2 0 3 2 1 3 3
UKIP 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 0
BNP 1 0 3 1 0 0 0 2 0
Respect 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Other 1 0 0 1 0 2 4 0 2
Westminster Non Voters
Would Not Vote 4 8 6 5 0 5 3 0 1
Don't know 13 8 13 11 14 15 9 16 15
Scottish Constituency Vote
SNP 40 39 38 52 39 40 45 32 37LOOKING GOOOD :O):o):o)
Labour 29 25 29 23 45 36 27 24 35
Lib Dem 13 26 17 10 5 4 12 17 9
Conservative 12 6 12 12 7 10 12 21 8
Other 6 4 5 3 4 11 4 6 11
Scottish Constituency Non Voters
Don't know 11 13 15 10 8 18 9 10 5
Scottish Regional Vote
SNP 34 33 31 41 29 37 38 26 36
Labour 26 23 24 22 41 31 26 18 30
Conservative 13 10 13 17 9 11 12 17 7
Lib Dem 13 22 19 9 11 8 13 11 11
Other 15 12 14 11 10 13 12 28 17
Scottish Region
240

HEN BROON 5,

30/12/2007 18:54:50
http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/2007%2012%2007%20SNP.pdf
241

danielrober,

30/12/2007 19:02:55

Keep up the work Prime Minister Brown, we love for having the guts not to call an election. The UK economy could not have taken the stress. That's been a real Prime Minister. Well done sir.



# 403, Robbie 2

Hey glad your back, to a traditional democratic debate.

Have your books changed recently because all the NZ books i read, outside of Atlases, are the same as here in the UK (from the USA). After all traditional history books have been supplied by America companies for the last 40 years. So how old are your books?
242

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 19:15:37
#410 - But the SNP has been using the results of similar polls to claim that it has the lead in Scotland.
243

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 19:22:32
411. I thought the SNP won the last Scottish election? And are the government ?
244

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA GU BRATH 30/12/2007 19:28:02
#377 Mine is a Garry Glitte :o)





















































































:o) :o)
245

HEN BROON 5,

30/12/2007 19:29:07
Sorry I'm of for a Gary Glitter................
246

Diogenes of Sinope,

John Smith House 30/12/2007 19:29:54
#397

"North Sea oil tax has never been recognised as a Scottish resource and so cannot be considered as a Scottish asset until that is agreed by all negotiating parties."

The article by Tom Gordon (p8) in today's 'Scottish' edition of The Sunday Times "Callaghan hid oil wealth from Scots", explains the contrivance devised by Westminster to try and make this so - or in plain English - deception and expropriation.

As with the McCrone report, further archives released under the 30 year rule are reported to detail deception by the 1970s UK government, in order to hide the true wealth from Scotland's oil. Here are just a few quotes from the article:

“In essence, the proposal is that offshore profits should be allocated to a new region specially created for the purpose rather than being associated with the existing contiguous regions.”

"The government documents, released by the National Archives of Scotland, show that the economic region was created in 1977 to prevent Scotland’s gross domestic product (GDP) almost doubling overnight, fuelling support for independence.”

“The great majority of the profit would accrue to Scotland, and would represent almost a doubling of the Scottish GDP, which in 1974 had been about £6.5 billion.”

“Callaghan approved the proposal, but insisted it be announced in a low-key press release timed to minimise plans for a devolution referendum and the establishment of a Scottish assembly.”

I cannot imagine the above forming any basis for an international settlement that would subordinate the right of any country to benefit from its natural resources, in favour of another country.
247

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/12/2007 19:36:15
With regard to Broon and Britishness, I want Union Jack toilet paper and a Broon bog roll too.

Just to pay my respects to his vision.
248

IainGlasgow,

30/12/2007 19:40:15
#397

Negotiation would only apply to assets that are not location specific such as military hardware, the national debt, etc. North sea oil fields ownership would be divided by international boundaries as stipulated in international law. This would be a line of latitide from Berwick stretching out half way into the North Sea (or as far as what is considered international waters). I doubt any government in the democratic world would be prepared to sanction a settlement that would take more North Sea oil from Scotland than such boundary rules would create.
249

Border Scot,

30/12/2007 19:42:10
#421 - says who?
250

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/12/2007 19:44:30
With regards to the gene pool, my mother was born in Motherwell to travelling Italian musicians while my father's side of the family go back to a Flemish guy who signed the Ragman Roll.

Who cares? I'm Scots. End of.
251

Diogenes of Sinope,

John Smith House 30/12/2007 20:10:48
#399

"And if the oil is not a diminishing resource how will it be in England's interests to relinquish all interest in the tax revenue it generates? How do you persuade the English to hand t over to Scotland without taking action to recoup the shortfall?"

Let me ask you to look at this a different way - what is the basis for North Sea oil revenues accruing respectively to the Norwegian and UK governments? I think you will find this is sector based. An independent Scotland would be entitled to revenues in exactly the same way. This would be true of other inshore and offshore resources within Scottish territorial limits, just as with any other independent country.

I do find it odd that many supporting the Union have lambasted the importance of Scotland's oil to the UK, and have suggested it nearing depletion, and yet you see it as a bone-of-contention. The Diogenes in me makes me wonder if we have more porky pies here from those who oppose Scotland's independence?
252

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 20:18:37
423
You'll need to have plenty of oil in your lamp to find them Diogenes,remember the Mcrone report:-)
253

Pilrig,

Livingston 30/12/2007 20:30:29
212 - Celts rule ok ! we can see White Anglo Saxon Protestantism for the malignant alien influence that it is.
254

Diogenes of Sinope,

John Smith House 30/12/2007 20:35:18
#427

Thanks Conan - Occam's razor (lex parsimoniae) saves use of the lamp ;-)
255

Pilrig,

Livingston 30/12/2007 20:41:38
Gordon Broon; the man who fleeced a lot us of our old age pensions. And of course Nu lab want us to work beyond 68.
256

Robbie 2,

30/12/2007 20:45:30
409 danielrober
Thanks for the welcome but off soon to Hamilton (NZ) for the New Year.
Your remark, “...Have your books changed recently because all the NZ books I read, outside of Atlases, are the same as here in the UK (from the USA). After all traditional history books have been supplied by America companies for the last 40 years. So how old are your books?”
Honestly not sure what you mean. I have a large collection of history and political books from ones published in the late 19th and early 20th centuries up until this year (Naomi Klein ‘The Shock Doctrine’) and written by a variety of authors (A.L.Morton, ‘People’s history of England’ Larry Flint, ‘Sex, Lies and Politics’ and volumes by Milton Friedman, Galbraith Wilson, Saul, etc.), published all over the place. The point I was making that even academics with strings of PhDs and professorships did and still do refer to Britain as England; take even the title of Paul Johnson’s (recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Bush in 2006) 1998 edition of
‘The Offshore Islanders: A History of the English People’ a common ‘claim that England is an island, even Mrs Doubtfire (and many Americans) thought this. To many is not a 'biggie' but a continuous annoyance as Unionists do not understand that this was a glaring flaw in the Union (The population of the larger nation too often seemed oblivious to the smaller ‘partners’) and it is the rise of the SNP that is making the English more aware that there was Union, what it was supposed to mean and that ‘Red, White and Blue’ are not the colours of England alone.
If I was to make note of the number of times this misnomer (England/Britain) occurs in History Books, I would be months completing the task. Anyway have a good forum better continue supervising the packing.
257

danielrober,

30/12/2007 21:03:33
Robbie 2

You know i get the guys from Oz, they are is your face, work hard, play hard, srew up and get back into the game. I get that. You win, you lose, most of the time we are all just trying to get a draw. Okay.

But's what with the moaning, from a minority of SA and NZ contributers. Our Prime Minister is doing HIS JOB, growth rate was 3.2% the year. Yeh we have inflation, yeh we could do with two less wars, but we could also do with some co-opeation too. A few less alies countries taking out our industries, while we are at war.

A lot of guys on this site, from former colonial countries and bring a lot of input that i more than welcome. Others just come here to moan that we are no longer a great power. Well we are not and i certainly won't to put my life on the line so some guy, i'll never meet can drive a bigger BMW. That's a common opinion today. Yes we belive in self defence and we owe the Yanks for WW II. But cut back on moaning guys, its sad.

Keep up the work Prime Minister Brown.
258

IainGlasgow,

30/12/2007 21:55:16
#423

People involved in North Sea oil seem to be under the impression their industry has as much as 40 years left of it. I think they know a bit more than the politicians. There is nothing Gordon Brown and his ilk can teach IBM or Microsoft about computing, Gordon Ramsay about cooking and I'm sure its equally true Texaco and Shell can learn nothing from them about petroleum. Personally I will keep the counsel of experts rather than those who have never had real jobs.
259

Eve,

30/12/2007 22:01:04
Firstly, I haven't read this artcle yet but my rection to this quteo will follow it..
"I'll fight to save Union from SNP, says Brown"

Ha, Ha, Ha, He, He, Ho, Ho, really!!!!

Whys the union so important to Brown!!! Is he courpted by power!!!

Oh well I'll soon find out.
260

Eve,

Scotland 30/12/2007 22:16:07
"Brown has said previously that he would work with Salmond "in the best interests of Scotland" but it appears he now wants to take a tougher line."

May be it's the festive sesion or that I have just been watching to much of cretain telly programme BUT the above quote makes me think that there is a strong possiblity that Gordon has been taken over by the darlicks!!!!

Or may be he's heard that a super poll has put the SNP with an estmiated 35.3% and Labour 30.7%, amasingly this still gives the Labour party 27 seats and the SNP 22 seats (BUT hey it's a lot of seats for the SNP to hypofical win in a general election) (Sunday Herald, 30th Dec 07)
261

Eve,

Scotland 30/12/2007 22:23:49
"there are no Wales-only, Scotland-only or England-only solutions.""

I don't understand!!! Does Brown Have no solutions!!!!

Does Brown only have worries and the biggist wan at that trying to hold an artificial union together!!!
262

Eve,

Scotland 30/12/2007 22:27:59
#436 Methalions: Really!!!
263

Diogenes of Sinope,

John Smith House 30/12/2007 22:38:18
#433

Yes, Brown undoubtedly had intellect, but the jury must be out on whether he has wisdom. He cannot point to any real-world experience outside politics, and he seems incapable of charm or empathy.

This is marked contrast with Salmond, who has public and private sector experience prior to his political career. Importantly, for a country with oil and on the cusp of independence, he is an economist and formerly an oil analyst with RBS, which itself is a global player as one of the world's top 6 banks.

Having experienced the rolling prediction from UK sources, since the 1970s, that oil will be all but exhausted within the next decade, I share your view that there are some more decades left. I think we are all wise to listen to the counsel of practitioners in their respective areas of expertise. This, of course, means not paying too much heed to anything uttered by Brown.
264

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 22:45:22
442 ssssh. I am thinking
265

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 22:46:37
442 Lanarkshire? Perhaps. Kilmarnock, Dundee, Ochil better me thinks, Aberdeen.... SNP needs 34% in national polls to start winning really big against Labour in Central belt
266

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 30/12/2007 22:48:03
150 people out of a 'all British' poll is a joke. The unionists are incredibly desperate to get any relief but holding up such a poll as genuinely representative of Scottish opinion just shows how sad and pathetic they have became. Given the popular reaction on this newspaper site and all the others to Brown's New Year declaration of war on those who support Scottish rights it's no surprise.

Alex Salmond always puts Scotland first. In sharp contrast our PM can't even support his own country at football, declaring that his favourite goal ever was Paul Gascoine's AGAINST Scotland, see this story:

http://news.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=2777517

He and his fellow unionists are desperate to continue in a union where Scotland is outvoted 10-1, why because without Scotland in the union he can't be British Prime Minister. He's even proud of a National Anthem, God Save the Queen which sings of "crushing rebellious Scots" and sees no need to change it.

According to recent 'polls of polls' which are universally recognised as the most accurate, the SNP isn't only beating Labour for Scottish elections it's also beating them for British elections! Considering the ratio of coverage the SNP gets on the 'national' British news this is an incredible acheivement.

Scotland is slowly but surely moving towards the normal natural powers of independence. If that affects Gordon's Browns career negatively, too bad.
267

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 22:50:08
445 Salmond very good. I liked Jim Sillars. Best orator in British politics of several generations. Salmond has better strategic thinking.
268

AJ o' Fife,

30/12/2007 22:54:40
My God....isn't Mr Brown a 24cwt w*nker?

269

Eve,

30/12/2007 23:04:56
#442 The Spook in Leith: There are several seats in both North and South Lanarkshire! Some are more becoming more loes able than others.

I reckon if the SNP play their cards right they could win Hamiltion again. I say Hamiltion because it's Dr Reid current seat and he's steping down at the next election.
270

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:08:01
448 Lanarshire? Why this obsession with that county? Kilmarnock! Cunningham (or North Ayrshire, close to both our hearts) Aberdeen, Dundee, tehy all ready to fall. Lanarshire? Why?
271

Eve,

30/12/2007 23:13:46
452 Chairman Gordon: "blindly following 'conventions' whose validity has never been tested in court."

Eh, mmmm are you a wee bit tipsy!!!!

How do you follow a 'conventions' blindly?

And why does everything need to be tested in court to be vaild?
272

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:13:56
455 Cumnernauld indeed. I got phased when they went from 72 to 59 or whatever as I was abroad and lost track, had a good knowledge of the 72 "old" constituencies.... lots could tumble if the SNp at c 34%
273

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:16:09
451 yes, married to La Margo. Both Mps for Govan. Margo daughter married to one of the proclaimers
274

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:17:35
458 the SNp did not contest Glasgow city council properly - it only fieldeed on candidate per ward, its vote could have got more seats

But indeed, Glasgow and Lanararkshire will be the last to go - if SNp can gub Labour there ala Govan then SNP will win everywhere
275

Eve,

Scotland 30/12/2007 23:18:53
#455 The Spook in Leith: What there showing re-runs on BBC parliament!!! Is that cause every polition is in hoilday, apart form giveng there new year speach.

Personaly I'm wee bit lost New years day is still an inter day away, so how can anyone have done a speach for it all ready. Surely these speaches are really Hogmany speaches!!! Just a thought.
276

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:19:46
462 Ignore him. he very dull, pompous and can't debate
277

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:20:53
458 - Lanarshire a dozen seats? Don't think so. Would make it 25% of population for Westminster?
278

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:22:18
462 I think Chairman G just a Scotsman troll to encourgage discussion. Let us ignore him and discuss Jim, Margo and the Proclaimers and SNp strategy
279

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 23:24:33
467
Know who I would back in a debate?

It isn't you.
280

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:26:23
IGNORE CHAIRMAN G (aka EV)

He a dull fu-d and not capable of debate. Just some deranged chugger getting weird kicks. Squeak
281

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:28:52
471 C the L

indeed. I won the Uk debating championships when at Uni. Eeek, may narrow down who I am lol
282

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:31:05
476 IGNORE THE FUD
283

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:32:18
476 I did. Huge. All that Xmas food
284

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:33:46
479. No. Weird u ask given you know my name lol.

I do remember Ian Lawson, he of the I have eaten gravel Paisley by-election fame
285

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:36:45
483 Who is Mike Lawson tho? I did debate with Duncan Hamilton tho. Among others
286

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:41:34
483 Hoos Poos

Mike Lawson. Will ponder...
287

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:45:30
487 Big red bottom? Possibly met Chairman g
288

Conan the Librarian™,

30/12/2007 23:53:57
475
Been trawling google for debating championships...
289

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:55:43
490 Eeek. Shreik. Indeed. Bit of a tw-at. World debating champion with Duncan Hamilton? I hope u not he...
290

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:56:46
490. I suspect I was at Uni with Am2 lol
291

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/12/2007 23:58:25
490 Manus. What a pillock. And that guy Sinclair who wnet on to be political editor of daily record. And nicol sturgeon... lol. alot of them
292

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 00:00:38
495 If AM2 was at Uni with Manus then he was at uni with me. And Nicol aSturgeon, Duncan Hamilton, Paul Sinclair, Alastair Allan, Angela Constance and those Lib Dems i forget the name of
293

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 00:01:57
501. LOL

did u debate at the GUU?

Bet i kicked your ass all over the shop hehhe
294

Conan the Librarian™,

31/12/2007 00:05:18
Night Spook,Happy New year,ya wee ba' kicker.
295

Bill, Dunblane,

31/12/2007 00:07:05
403 Robbie - me old mate!

Welcome back! How TLOTLWC?

Like you being (very) quiet of late - wait 'till it matters - quite a bunch of plonkers posting who deserve no reply, but some pretty good guys also.

wee shuie is still on line at times, 'tho haven't seen the Wiz for a while.

Geoff seems to be softening his views somewhat, 'tho still a way to go.

Messrs W&M working overtime this week!!!
296

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 00:07:07
501 hehehe i you know manus you were.... you are not that wee Tory who wore a black arm band were u?
297

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 00:10:40
509. AM2. I do rememeber some mediocre debaters with a wee Northern Irish accent
298

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 00:11:31
509 Do you know who I am then?
299

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 00:15:27
514 LOl. if you were at Glasgow Uni with Manus and were into politics then we met lol
300

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 00:16:57
514 We are running short of medical scientists with first degree from Glasgow Uni who worked in Belgium/USA and are from Ayrshire, and won UK debating championship I feel anyway?
301

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 00:21:47
517 LOL

no. I don't think so anyway. LOl. very good
302

Conan the Librarian™,

31/12/2007 00:31:01
I'm sorry...I have to do this...So who was the master debator?
303

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 00:40:36
519

me. I think. Lol. I won. where everyone go?
304

Conan the Librarian™,

31/12/2007 00:45:01
520
Work tomorrow?

So what is your(first)name then?

With your moniker,I keep seeing Rabbie...
305

,

31/12/2007 00:52:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
306

Conan the Librarian™,

31/12/2007 01:13:37
523
Ah...so the Scottish Government is a figment of us Nats...HaHa.
307

Miss Jean Brodie,

31/12/2007 02:00:16
Everyone I know is for a Scottish Independent Government except 2 - that makes this a 99+% poll for independence - sheesh - the figures are adding up - and whit aboot aw these English commentators on the Hogmany show on BBC tonite thinking that everything up in Scotland was a Comedy speaks volumes aboot the London psyche eh ?

The people of Hong Kong said they felt like second class citizens under London Rule - well - it’s time for them to consider - hmmm? just maybee - the majority o Scots might be feeling this as weel !
308

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 02:03:38
527? You claiming you won? I seem to remember me or Duncan winning everything? What debating trophy you thin u won?
309

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 02:04:59
527? You claiming you won? I seem to remember me or Duncan winning everything? What debating trophy you thin u won?
310

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/12/2007 02:05:50
527? You claiming you won? I seem to remember me or Duncan winning everything? What debating trophy you thin u won?
311

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 31/12/2007 10:49:21
When Brown said:

"Brown said his policies reflected "our shared vision of a new Britain rooted in enduring traditions and values". He wanted to build a country "proud of its progress towards equality and confident of its future,2

can anyone tell me who he is referring to when he refers to "our shared vision"?

Even a Unionist would struggle to answer that question.
312

St. George,

England 31/12/2007 12:35:23
I would like to wish my Scottish neighbours a very happy and peaceful New Year.

I have enjoyed reading the comments on political news stories. They have kept me amused on these long dark winter nights.
313

Conan the Librarian™,

31/12/2007 13:36:28
537
Thanks St.George,and the same to you.

314

Gtj,

Dundee 31/12/2007 21:26:13
Gordon, I would fight for your job before you worry about the Union - your on a hiding to nothing with than one.
315

alexnicolakenny,

Glasgow 01/01/2008 12:37:47
A big majority of Scots want the Union to remain. Two thirds of Scots voted for Unionist parties on May 3. And far more Scots turn out to vote at UK general elections than they do for elections to Scotland Regional Council.
316

morris,

edinburgh 01/01/2008 15:53:08
540

Very true but unfortunatley the SNP have opened up a gap over New Labour in Westminster voting intentions(but expect a survey which counters this in the Daily Retard soon).No doubt the HOOTSMON will publish it too.
In fact dont be surprised if the swing to Labour is so high that they get 103 % of the possible votes!
There is also the not insignificant matter of Labour are going to get gubbed down south where 85% of the seats are located. They cannot possibly win

Maybe Glasgow should take this on board ? Reality is one hell of a place to live.
317

kimba,

01/01/2008 16:03:35
Back from the Trossachs,you scots are wierd people! anyway,anyway can England have their own parliament,'cause if not you are dead and buried.
318

Saul Tyre,

Germany 01/01/2008 16:22:29
"The Prime Minister is to use his New Year message to single out the worth of the Union, declaring he will make the case for a British state in the coming months."

By what mechanism did this guy Gordon Brown manage to become Prime Minister? Can anybody imagine Nicolas Sarkozy or Angela Merkel spending a few months trying desperately to 'make the case' for France or Germany? That would only mean their respective countries would be in grave danger of disintegrating. Like Britain.
319

Saul Tyre,

Germany 01/01/2008 16:26:57
#525 AM2,

Tell us EXACTLY what 'Devolution Mk. II' is. You don't know, the people don't know, so how can they choose that non-option?
320

livilion,

livingston 02/01/2008 08:39:16
544 Saul Tyre,Germany 01/01/2008 16:26:57
A year ago increased powers to Holyrood was a big no no for unionists. Not any more it isn't.
The attraction of devolution max or devolution 2 is that it can mean anything to anyone upto and including 'independence' just so long as you don't use that word.
321

,

06/01/2008 06:49:08
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