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Brown in U-turn on new tax power for Holyrood

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Published Date: 17 February 2008
GORDON Brown has performed a dramatic U-turn that has opened the door for Holyrood to be handed new tax-raising powers.
In an interview with the BBC to be shown today, Brown appears to back the case for change, declaring there is "an issue" over the Scottish Parliament having responsibility for spending money but not for raising it.

He says he supports plans put fo
rward by Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander to set up an independent commission to study plans to transfer more tax powers from London to Edinburgh.

This could lead to income tax rates, business taxes and VAT all being set by the Scottish Government and not Downing Street.

Brown says: "I think there is a very strong case for moving forward with this review. A strong case for looking, after 10 years of devolution, at what is the right steps forward… There is an issue about the financial responsibility of an Executive or an administration that has £30bn to spend but doesn't have any responsibility for raising any pounds of that."

The Prime Minister's comments are a major shift to his position prior to the last Scottish election, when he backed the status quo.

The Scottish Parliament has the power to lower or raise income tax by 3p in the pound – a power it has never used. But there is strong support from all parties to hand it power over other taxes.

In the interview, for The Politics Show, Brown adds: "This is what any review should look at. Nobody should pre-judge it. There is a case for saying that in any other devolved administration in the world there is usually a financial responsibility that requires not only the spending of money by the administration but also its responsibility to take seriously how it raises money.

"Now the question is, just as local government has to raise some of its money through council tax, just as many other areas in the world where there are devolved administrations have to raise money through assigned taxation, is there a case for doing so? So that's one of the things that could be looked at."

Brown's comments come at the end of a week when the Scottish Labour Party has faced claims of a civil war over the commission.

Scotland Office minister David Cairns said that the issue of constitutional reform at Holyrood was one that only interested the "McChattering classes". He also argued that there was no need for Holyrood to have more tax-raising powers.

Speaking to Scotland on Sunday Cairns insisted that he supported the commission as well, but he also voiced support for the Barnett Formula – the system under which the Scottish Parliament is simply handed £30bn a year to spend.

"I was saying that the much-maligned Barnett Formula has delivered well for Scotland over many years and there's a case for it," he said.

However, Brown has now clearly acknowledged that there is a pressing need to examine whether that system should end. The remit of the commission will now be set by the three parties which back it – Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives – in the next few weeks. Scotland on Sunday understands that there is strong support within the Labour Party and the Lib Dems to appoint former Lib Dem leader Sir Menzies Campbell as the chairman of the commission.

His backers say he has the necessary gravitas to steer the commission through rough political waters. However, the Tories are believed to want to block Campbell's nomination and are calling for a figure from outside politics to lead it.

Brown's call on tax powers comes as one of the UK's leading constitutional experts will this week urge MPs to give Holyrood financial independence. Vernon Bogdanor, professor of government at Oxford University, said the Scottish Government must be given the power to raise its £30bn budget through a Scottish income tax in order to avert "political disaster" and the break-up of the Union.

He said: "It's absurd that while the smallest English district council can raise tax, the body representing the people of Scotland does not. It makes perfect sense to give Scotland fiscal autonomy."

He will make his comments, outlined in an article for Scotland on Sunday today, to a committee of MPs who are examining constitutional change.

But a spokesman for First Minister Alex Salmond said: "The Prime Minister's acceptance that change is necessary stands in stark contrast to the 'no change' position in which he fought last year's Scottish election campaign."

He added: "The unionist parties in Scotland should be on their guard over the motivations of London-based politicians. They may be walking into a Downing Street trap."

In his interview with the BBC, the Prime Minister also offers his support for Wendy Alexander, who was forced to the brink of resignation after she admitted wrongly accepting a donation from an offshore businessman. Brown conceded that Labour in Scotland was going through tough times.

He said: "I think Wendy Alexander will turn out to be a great leader. She has had my support, has my support, will continue to have my support. I think she's doing a very good job in difficult circumstances."



The full article contains 878 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 February 2008 11:11 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: The Scottish Parliament
 
1

,

17/02/2008 00:11:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
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2

subrosa,

17/02/2008 00:18:13
# 1

I'm not that taken in my this spin. It's a delaying tactic to avoid the Scottish government moving forward.
3

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 00:27:29
"It's absurd that while the smallest English district council can raise tax, the body representing the people of Scotland does not."

Er....What about income tax, business tax, the SNP's proposed levy on alcohol plus the increasing Holyrood control of council taxes? You can add in any congestion charging introduced in Scotland too. Then there's parking fees, traffic fines...
4

Sanny,

17/02/2008 00:28:45
Or to put it another way Ayrshire Scot; an excellent example of of how Brown will go whichever way the wind blows. This doesn't square with the Cairns statement or indeed Brown's previously stated position.

I am I suggesting that Brown is lying? Absolutely!! He had an excellent tutor in Teflon Tony and he needs to be seen to support Wendy's position, or he will lose a major sycophant who will obey. Wendy might just be replaced by a real socialist with spherical objects who might be mindful of the Scottish electorate.

Ayrshire Scot I'll leave you to your fantasies!
5

,

17/02/2008 00:31:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
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6

Senga Jean,

Scotland 17/02/2008 00:44:08
#5 Personally I am indifferent to England and the UK in this matter. You arrogantly assign the label of "ranting" to any anti Unionist comment while I enjoy with ,possibly, greater justification attaching the label "anti Scottish" to Unionist comment. The reality is of course that Gordon Brown will sell Scotland down the river just to keep hold of his job.
7

,

17/02/2008 00:44:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
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8

The Strategist,

17/02/2008 00:49:55
#5 Nats is spelt with a capital N. If you're going to be insulting then at least make sure your ravings are grammatically correct.
9

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 00:53:09
5
You are so right EV.
10

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 00:54:40
Not
11

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 00:56:35
Do you think he may be ever so slightly worried about losing his seat?
12

frank mcbride,

lusitania 17/02/2008 00:56:49
#5, EV.

Why are you having a go at aunties? They always rant, that's their way.

#1, Fairlie, Ayrshire.

Adapt? Could you clarify YOUR definition of this word?
It would seem that Mr. Brown has done a "volte face". Do you agree?

#7, disputer.

Your method of discussion seems a tad non-discursive.
13

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 01:03:16
15
Express Nat views long enough...
14

,

17/02/2008 01:08:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 01:09:03
6. How can Unionism be described as anti-Scottish?

Unionism is all about wanting the Union to succeed....That's why it's called 'Unionism'.

A few quotes to help clarify this further:

“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” - Charles de Gaulle.

“Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.” - Albert Einstein

“Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.” - George Orwell

It is not unionism that is the negative force here. It is, in fact, nationalism that breeds division, resentment and hatred.
16

Merouane,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 01:15:30
#18. In my experience it is Unionists who are so keen to label all in favour of independence as nationalists. Presumably in an attempt to tar us all with the negative implications that are associated with nationalism.

As for Unionism being a positive force. Yes, it can be, but I don't think that British Unionism embodies the positive aspects of Unionism. It is to focussed on some sense of British nationalism. Which is why I struggle to understand why so many British Unionists are so anti nationalism as a general concept.
17

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 01:16:04
18
Perhaps its about a union with equal partners EV.

The Union between Scotland an England was not equal.

I await your...balanced and fair response.
18

karinxx,

17/02/2008 01:17:00
18 okay so you want the union to succeed so how are you going to ensure that i am happy with it for now and the forseeable future. because i assume you would like everyone to be happy.

and if you want to play quotes ev heres a cracker.

In the Soviet Union, capitalism triumphed over communism. In this country, capitalism triumphed over democracy.”
Fran Lebowitz quotes

19

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 17/02/2008 01:19:43
More dithering , how pathetic.

Gordon close the door on your way our please.
20

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 01:21:13
Evening Karin
21

karinxx,

17/02/2008 01:23:05
evening conan.


paul hutcheon is missing from the sunday herald a search party has been launched. we expect the cyber defence force will eventually locate him.
22

karinxx,

17/02/2008 01:23:39
25 nipping back over ther to see if he has been found yet.
23

Senga Jean,

17/02/2008 01:25:26
#18 Quotations only prove that you can quote. Take de Gaulle for instance...think about the man and what he stood for and try to guess the occasion of his quote. Looking to my dear friend Einstein I would have thought his precious "Stars and Stripes" and his devotion to the Constitution of the United Stares of America and his gratitude for freedom of expression and belief would make you ask the circumstances of the quote. OR is this just another case of "Brit nationalism..GOOD" " Scottish Nationalism..BAD"
24

frank mcbride,

lusitania 17/02/2008 01:30:48
#18, EV.

Perhaps you would like to explain why M. DeGaulle said "NON" to the Union becoming part of the EEC?

Would you also like to enlighten us to the political pedigree of M. Einstein and Mr. Orwell?

Perhaps, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" is something that could be quoted but, clever phrases are just that, clever phrases.

However, I'm happy to keep seeing your comments, as they only add to support for Independence. You are a master of negativity.
25

Richardinho,

17/02/2008 03:21:51
Gordon Brown is certainly not a man to be trusted.
But on the whole I would welcome this.
I don't doubt that there is likely some devious scheme behind all this (one detects the hand of Douglas Alexander), but whilst I wouldn't underestimate their deviousness, I wouldn't overestimate their intelligence either.
Eddie Barnes elsewhere suggests that the underlying plan is to frighten the Scottish people off with the threat of higher taxes.
But this is predicated on the notion (firmly held by all unionists) that Scots are incapable of governing themselves.
If that were true, then this plan would work.
As it's not true, they may be in for a nasty surprise!
26

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 03:37:43
18 -

Mahatma Ghandi on Nationalism:

Our nationalism can be no peril to other nations in as much as we will exploit none, just as we will allow none to exploit us. Through Swaraj we will serve the whole world. (YI, 16-4-1931, p. 79)

For me patriotism is the same as humanity. I am patriotic because I am human and humane. If is not exclusive, I will not hurt England or Germany to serve India. Imperialism has no place in my scheme of life. The law of a patriot is not different from that of the patriarch. And a patriot is so much the less patriot if he is a Luke-warm humanitarian. There is no conflict between private and political law.
(YI, 16-3-1921, p. 81)

It is impossible for one to be internationalist without being a nationalist. Internationalism is possible only when nationalism becomes a fact, i.e., when peoples belonging to different countries have organized themselves and are able to act as one man. It is not nationalism that is evil, it is the narrowness, selfishness, exclusiveness which is the bane of modern nations which is evil. Each wants to profit at the expense of, and rise on the ruin of, the other. Indian nationalism has struck a different path. It wants to organize itself or to find full self-expression for the benefit and service of humanity at large… God having cast my lot in the midst of the people of India, I should be untrue to my Maker if I failed to serve them. If I do not know how to serve them I shall never know how to serve humanity. And I cannot possibly go wrong so long as I do not harm other nations in the act of serving my county. (YI, 18-6-1925, p. 211)
27

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 03:45:40
Brown is a practical man. He doesn't want Holyrood to have more powers but when faced with Vernon Bogdanor, professor of government at Oxford University and others of equal merit forecasting the breakup of the UK unless something drastic is done, then Brown bends, he would be a fool not to.

It's just immense credit to Prime Minister Salmond and his Cabinet, especially Chancellor Swinney that within 10 months of taking office the entire 'British' establishment is in uproar and now promising the earth to keep us (and our Oil and Gas Revenues)in the Union.

We're not there yet by any means but we are definitely on track.
28

frank mcbride,

lusitania 17/02/2008 03:56:21
#35, An Beal.

Your reply to EV is gracious. It is beyond me to reply in such a way to him/her.

EV's attitude is such that s/he should be questioned. S/He flames wildly, but never substantiates anything, is totally negative and often rambling. He is a poor substitute for Mr. Cairns, or indeed for Mr. Browne, or even Mr. Brown.
29

williamx,

canada 17/02/2008 04:01:21
It is noticeable that this new commission that everybody is getting excited about is proposed by everybody, labour, lib dems and tories, to bypass the SNP initiative which started earlier. In other words, Brown is making friendly comments on Wendy's plan but ignoring the SNP plan in order to improve the labour support in Scotland. Since Brown is a member of the Scottish elite you had better watch your backs as these are the people who screwed you over the past 300 years and managed to deflect attention from them to the English in order to provide cover for their actions. I have no doubt that Scotland will get devolved financial powers but Westminster will attribute the relaxation of control to the WENDY mob and not to the SNP. Remember, Westminster hired the Israelis to attack Egypt so Westminster could move in and annex the Suez canal.
30

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:31:14
37 - Frank - you are to kind to the poseur known as EV - he is but a galoot - end of.
31

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 17/02/2008 05:44:14
#18 An English Voice
You use an interesting quote by de Gaulle on the differences between Patriotism and Nationalism, I wonder in what context he did he make that quote, was it in reference to the Algerian struggle for independance? Here is another interesting quote from de Gaulle, "Vive le Quebec Libre". Given by de Gaulle at a speech in Montreal where he gave support to the Nationalist movement in Quebec. Your argument that the natural human impulse to want to be part of a Nation can some how be blunted by subsuming that desire with in some artificial construct (Britian)is ridiculous. Nationalism is always at its ugliest when external forces seek to supress it. I am sure that when Scotland achieves its Independance, England will find that her best friend lies across her nothern border and not across the Atlantic.
32

zigzag,

Tecumseh Canada 17/02/2008 06:05:09
40 KampungHighlander,Jakarta 17/02/2008 05:44:14

"I am sure that when Scotland achieves its Independance, England will find that her best friend lies across her nothern border and not across the Atlantic."

Nice one KampungHighlander. Make it so Number 1. This is the Starship Enterprise
33

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 17/02/2008 06:30:35
Do not trust anything coming out London. They are a shower of SHARKS with POLITICAL DIAREHHA. Scotland will raise her own funds from our natural resources, whitch includes our OIL and GAS. AND WE WILL TAKE IT ALL BACK!
34

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 06:41:34
Broon and crew have nothin tae offer Scotland. They will try tae sell us penury wrapped up as increased fiscal powers. Beware!


35

langtonian,

scotus 17/02/2008 07:20:15
The general tone of the comments attributed to Gordon Brown,David Cairns,and Vernon Bogdanor will have great appeal to those wishing to remain within the UK,who generally approve that the up to now,relatively succsesfull 10 years of Devolved governance requiers to continue to upgrade power's including taxation.
The addition of Sir Menzies Campbell in seeking how best to keep the flow of ideas on taxation moving along,is sound, his political up front political nous would be very beneficial in meeting targets and budgets.As can be seen from the above "girnie Gnats" comments, they still wish to go down the road of SEPERATION, that is the heart of all their principles/manifesto proposals.Despite the fact they do not truly represent the majority of Scots voters whoe's preferance is to remain as part of the UK.

That will be sorted at a 2011 election whereby given stronger more up front campaigning the majority WILL have their due rights.
36

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:32:22
46 - Kircaldy:

Ye almost had a decent post there. Ye spoiled it with the "girny Gnats" bit and your use of cap locked "SEPERATION" (sic).
37

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:35:49

Two Labour MPs with neighbouring constituencies in west London, Alan and Ann Keen, a junior health minister, have claimed more than £175,000 in allowances since 2002 even though their family home in her constituency is less than 10 miles from parliament.
38

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:39:59
Lovin it
39

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:40:59
Can we tax our own oil thanks?
40

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:42:15
Dawn Butler, the Labour MP for Brent South, whose constituency is just 5½ miles from parliament (or 4½ miles as the crow flies), claimed £21,803 last year She owns a house in her constituency and a house in Stratford, east London, but not close to parliament
41

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:42:56
The Dagenham MP Jon Cruddas, a former contender for the deputy Labour leadership, claimed £22,055 last year.


Great dub clubs in dagenham all the same but still......
42

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:43:12
John Austin, Labour MP for Erith and Thamesmead, claimed £22,110 last year even though the train from his constituency takes about 40 minutes to Charing Cross. He has a flat in Rotherhithe, southeast London, which is also just 40 minutes away from Westminster by public transport.

43

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:43:48
Barry Gardiner, Labour MP for Brent North, claims the allowance even though he does not own a house in his constituency
44

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:43:50
Barry Gardiner, Labour MP for Brent North, claims the allowance even though he does not own a house in his constituency
45

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:44:24
Joan Ryan, Labour MP for Enfield North, has a home in her constituency. Last year she opted to claim £21,971 in housing allowance for a flat nearer parliament in Kennington, south London.

By contrast her neighbour, the MP for Chingford, Iain Duncan Smith, the former Conservative leader, claimed just £566 in housing allowances.

46

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:45:19
Twenty-four MPs with seats in Greater London claimed almost £400,000 of public money to fund second homes last year.

47

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 07:46:15
Don't you just love how Westminster MP's, especially the Labour ones, seem to love ripping off the poor taxpayers of this country as if it were their right.
48

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 07:48:13
Very Rev Ian Paisley, Ah"m lovin it! Keep it comin.
49

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 17/02/2008 07:57:40
#46 Langtonian
I think that 2011 is more likely to be the date of the referendum. This sudden U Turn by Unionists to give Scotland a few more fiscal power is a political stunt. It is the last role of the dice to divert the Scottish electorate from a real discussion about independance. The offer will be control over personal income tax in return for relinquishing an equal sum under Barnett. The real economic levers, Business Rates, CGT, IHT, Excise Tax, VAT, Stamp Duty and Oil and Gas Revenue will not be on the table. Westminster will not be willing to give them up. Which will bring us to 2011, a general election with a referendum on the ballot. Scotlands electorate will get to choose between the Unionist sham and giving their Parliament real fiscal powers.
50

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:02:48
60 - KampungHighlander, Jakarta 17/02/2008 07:57:40

Good post.
51

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 08:13:53


"Labour MPs are seeking to revive a campaign to ban parents from 'smacking' children, it emerged yesterday"

Why chastise children and teach them it is wrong to do something, when parents could teach them it's OK to break the law, circumnavigate parliamentary rules to enrich themselves, lie to their peers, enter into illegal wars and kill a million innocent people, allow bribery of officials in Saudi Arabia who are about to execute a woman on grounds of 'witchcraft', and provide lessons on how not to handle economic downturns that Robert Mugabe would be proud of.

It may be of course, that they are referring to the 1 in 10 kids that now take cocaine in our country, and are using the word 'smacking' to tell parents not to help them come down by using heroin.
52

,

17/02/2008 08:26:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
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53

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:29:41
Voting record (from PublicWhip)
How Eric Joyce voted on key issues since 2001:

Has never voted on a transparent Parliament. votes, speeches
Voted moderately against introducing a smoking ban. votes, speeches
Voted strongly for introducing ID cards. votes, speeches
Voted very strongly for introducing foundation hospitals. votes, speeches
63 - steve 1511, aberdeen:

Voted strongly for introducing student top-up fees. votes, speeches
Voted very strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws. votes, speeches
Voted very strongly for the Iraq war. votes, speeches
Voted very strongly against investigating the Iraq war. votes, speeches
Voted very strongly for replacing Trident. votes, speeches
Voted moderately for the hunting ban. votes, speeches
Voted very strongly for equal gay rights. votes, speeches
54

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 08:31:02
Steve - does his voting record represent your views?
55

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 09:03:35
"House of Commons Speaker Michael Martin used air miles earned on official business to fly members of his family business-class from Glasgow to London for a New Year break, it has been revealed.

Use of the air miles for family flights goes against official guidelines that MPs should use them to reduce the cost of future business travel paid for from the public purse"

THEY THINK THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW - GET RID
56

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 17/02/2008 09:19:50
Don't worry Good Rev...I fully intend to, & I hope others now see we must get rid of the sleazy lying nobodies that represent the lABOUR party.
57

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 09:43:50
The thing that really gets my goat is how they portray themselves to be for the people. They are not for the people but for themselves and their families and whenever wealthy individuals come along, they are for them to.

It looks like they want to maintain poverty in Scotland to retain their position as the countries power brokers, by fooling the populace of their intentions of making life better for the poorest. They then go and enrich themselves in every way possible, decrease social mobility excluding their own, claim that we are not capable of looking after ourselves so continue to want to sub contract our economy to hide their indescretions, and then tell us we are the

'best wee country in the world'.

We are the 'best wee country in the world' for allowing corrupt politicians who prey on the good intentions of its people, to continue to allow them the opportunity to allow our economy and social life to stagnate, all for their own greed.

The worst thing that ever happened to Westminster rule was the ability of the internet to provide transparency to their criminal acts and allow comparisons, economic or otherwise, to be conducted between nations.

GET THEM OUT

58

gus1940,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 09:45:17
Just Running Scared (Apologies to Roy Orbison)
59

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 09:46:11
Thats what Labour MP's view their stint in Westminster as, as a way to avoid personal debt by indebting the people they represent.

60

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/02/2008 09:50:25
They then have the tenacity to tell us how to raise our kids and tell us to avoid debt while refusing to contain the debt providers who have created more debt for the taxpayers running into 000's of pounds per person.

They then allow them to give out unsubstantiated bonuses to 'executives' who invent financial products aimed at indebting indebted people even more, and then they give them the lowest tax rates in the country for our benefit.

Thats what the Labour party are, vultures of the poorest and most vunerable people in our culture.
61

1745,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 09:51:19
36
Well said , May I add "beware of Greeks bearing gifts"
62

,

17/02/2008 10:08:15
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63

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 17/02/2008 10:13:21
It's a delaying tactic by Gordon Brown, he is trying to avoid full independence, at least until he is sitting on a fat pension and is well away from the political front line.



Yours etc

Angus Whitton
64

brownlie,

Glasgow 17/02/2008 10:16:55
Is there any significance in the fact that whilst Gordon Brown refers to this as a review that Wendy Alexander calls it a commission? Commission can be described as a payment to an agent for services rendered. New Labour appear to know all about that from personal experience!
65

Shiltrum,

Republic of Alba 17/02/2008 10:23:20
A derisory attempt by a laughably wek Broon to try and make life difficult for the Independence movement. His wishful thinking is that, by continued squeeze on the block grant, the SNP will be forced to take the he-hopes-electorally-unpopular step of raising taxes domestically.
However, what the Unionistas cannot yet absorb is that this is PRECISELY why we want Independence. "No taxation without representation" was the watchword of the US struggle to free themselves, and the case is no different here, beyond saying that "to have taxation powers in Scotland, no outside body should have the right to "limit" that ability...and once we've got that,why else would we NEED any union??..and the Freedom end-game is well within our reach. Bad times for Quislings, but Great, Great time to be a true Scot.
It's comin' yet for a' that !!!
66

Carlung,

17/02/2008 10:23:25

PM said: "I think Wendy Alexander will turn out to be a great leader. She has had my support, has my support, will continue to have my support. I think she's doing a very good job in difficult circumstances."

The difficult circumstances are entirely of her own making. Her resignation is long overdue. Go now before you totally destroy Scotland's Labour Party.
67

yockel,

17/02/2008 10:34:34
Careful Eck don't step in this one. Gordo did a fine job of diddling every last penny out of as chancellor and the country is struggling because of it. He wants you to make the same mistake.
We need flexibility in fiscal matters, the flexibility to be rewarded for effort. We need to find ways to run a country with less of the national wealth being devalued by being channelled through the governments mitts.
Lets get back to the creation of wealth so we can all benefit. Scroungers on the social do less harm than your average civil servant, they don't use up centrally heated, prime office space, city centre parking, draw inflated salaries and waste budgets of millions before enjoying early retirement on extravagant pensions.
Micro management of society is an enormously expensive habit we can't afford so lets ditch the NuBlab mind set and find more restrained ways to govern.
68

,

17/02/2008 10:52:00
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69

Cam3,

Scotland 17/02/2008 10:52:38
..god, it really does beggar belief. One remembers Alexander and co., and their leash bearers in London, what - nine months ago - lambasting the SNP's proposals to include THAT VERY OPTION on any Independence referendum. Remember? As the SNP were trying to speak some sense to the fib-dems and make the Scottish parliament work best for the people??

The response from the fib-dems? Sorry, no - we want out ball back! Waahhh! Thereby letting their own voters down, completely. That fact still astounds me to this day.

The response from the Labour party? Sorry, no - absolutely not!! Here's ten reasons why [validated by London] and here's a dozen interviews on Scottish politic programmes further citing why this is BAD for Scotland, BAD for the Scottish people, and BAD for just about any other reason we can think of!

Right up there with the 5k tax bill under the SNP, the attack from Bin Laden under the SNP and the REAL possibility of social ties dissolving between Scotland and England [aka the 'Balkanisation of the UK' from one Mr. Gordon Brown].

Surely we are not surprised by this dramatic U-turn?? Surely we expect, now, nothing else from the duplicity of the Labour [London] camp?

These people are not to be trusted, leave them be, making idiots of themselves in first minnister's questions every week. At least there's some comic value there...

...it's all about upsetting any proactive SNP agenda. As such, Scotland should be very wary of this party. People should be wary of any party who believe, quite simply, in lies and scaremongering tactics to their OWN PEOPLE. What should we do??

Ignore, move on, support the parliament in Edinburgh and watch the Labour party's backhanded corrupt meanderings crumble about them...as people in Scotland AND England realise them for who they are.
70

Cam3,

17/02/2008 10:57:46
The BBC article on this very matter is bizarre.

They keep back-tracking it within the Scotland section as the main feature - enter [stage right] dramatic pic of chairman Brown, a sea of red, not a single quote or comment from the party in power and sickening reiteration of how smashing Wendy is.

At least the people of Scotland do seem to be developing a keen sense of blog literacy in this web age, 'cos everyone I know sees straight through this garbage...
71

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 11:07:01
And it only happened because the SNP took power in Scotland. The best things only happen to Scotland when the threat of Independence is at its strongest has nobody else noticed this?
72

First Minister,

Raj Resteraunt 17/02/2008 11:09:28
This is not a U-turn, the real U-turn was the defection of some numpty from the SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY to the TORIES In London. Now thats a u-turn. Almost as good as Ruth Blacks defection from the Socialist Party to the Scottish Labour Party- Bizarre?
73

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/02/2008 11:23:42
#5 EV I observe that you were the first person on this thread to refer to the English. Trying to whip up some bigotry are you?
74

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/02/2008 11:24:59
#10 and you are a bigot
75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/02/2008 11:25:41
oops sorry #10
76

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/02/2008 11:58:07
Has Gordon Brown got a forward gear?
77

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/02/2008 12:06:56
#77 Carlung

Not quite. Salmond would make life difficult for anyone. she is clearly finding it a struggle to match his quick wit and intellect. She is already holed below the waterline (no pun intende!).
78

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 17/02/2008 12:29:57
Brown's apparent shift in sympathy for Scottish Parliament tax raising powers seems like another duplicitous scheme to buy back Loabour votes.

He attempts to wear SNP clothes due to their success, but in reality the scenario may play out like this:-
the Commission obtains tax-raising powers. The Barnett formula is reduced during the SNP period of Government, or withdrawn, or in any event manipulated so that Scottish control looks more expensive to the taxpayer. This then lends credence to the old regime and the formula is restored along with any threat to the Union. Labour goes back to its "normal" anointed position.

When it suited Brown he could leak that he wasn't happy (i.e. out of control) with the Commission suggestions. Cairns helped this along. Now he has a plan (back in control) and sweeps aside the old stance as irrelevant. Putting Sir Menzies Campbell in charge of the Commission achieves two things 1) it gets Wendy out of the road as she is disaster-prone, but he needs her there to avoid losing face himself 2) If it all goes wrong it's Ming's fault and of course he is a Lib-Dem so Labour comes out squeaky clean. Last-ditch defence? Reintroduce the Barnett formula for Labour to "rescue" the situation.
79

portonian,

falkirk 17/02/2008 12:36:32
SCTLAND GET INCOME TAX
WESTMINSTER GET WHISKY REVENUE
SCOTLAND GET ROAD TAX
WESTMINSTER GET OIL REVENUE

THE MAN IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED

IF EUROPE CAN HELP KOSOVO CAN IT NOT HELP SCOTLAND
80

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/02/2008 12:37:39
Good to see Gordon Brown joining what David Cairns described as the "McChattering classes"

Why Gordon Brown is talking about issues of concern only to McChatterers perhaps Mr Cairns will explain?
81

alanh,

ek 17/02/2008 12:46:22
do these people think we button up the back???????????

Dishonest Wendy needed to look strong and fighting for her way. Cue the stagemanaged disagreement with westminster and surprise surprise she wins it. Now who would have thought that???????
82

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/02/2008 12:48:06
93 Pity David Cairns didnt get the memo and labelled Wendy and Brown the McChattering classes
83

Neil,

Glasgow 17/02/2008 13:15:09
Wonderful. The reference to "income tax, business tax & VAT"is spin. We already have the power to vary income tax by 3p & all parties have backed away from using it. Changing VAT seriously would merely lead people shopping across the border. The biggie is business tax & specificly Corporation Tax.

With that we can go for growth on the Irish model - if the SNP are willing to make the financial sacrifices necessary to achieve what they have called for. The ball has been lobbed back into Alex's court.
84

alanh,

ek 17/02/2008 13:16:57
on the politics show there cathy jamieson(i think it was her) seemed to think that the "review" was to look at poweres that could be transferred TO westminster and from westminster?
85

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 17/02/2008 13:27:51
How gracious of our mouth breathing Prime Minister to condescend to give an interview to BBC Scotland, poor Gary Robertson looked as if he'd filled his jockey shorts with manjuice when he announced to the watching nation, "Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister".

The surreal exclamation on his moomin like face appeared to be shouting out, "Ha, take that you bunch of nationalist socialists, we've got the big man on our side, ha ha ha, here's Brian with a review of the capitals Chip shops."
86

Number 6,

Germany 17/02/2008 13:43:57
English Voice, can I point out that scottish village idiots took over your country over a decade ago, and still rule it. When we refer to Gordon Brown, we refer to him as a Scotsman. Unlike you lot , who were mostly unaware that BLIAR was also an imported village idiot from
north of the border. You relenquished control of englandshire then so our battle is with fellow scots.
You just make sure there are plenty of tea and biscuits
available for the grown-ups talks.
87

Number 6,

Germany 17/02/2008 13:47:34
Good to see Labour all singing from the same hymn sheet
ha ha. What on earth are Labour voters to make of this latest u-turn from dithering Brown?
88

Tris,

17/02/2008 13:55:01
#83. Good article. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. These people get worse and worse don't they? A pay rise that's bigger than most people in Scotland earn in total. Jokes.

Did you see that they are allowed £100 a week for supermarket shopping.... that's on top of the salary..... If I were Prince Charles, I'd be handing in my crown and joining that herd at the trough. Much better deal.

And as for the about turn from Mr Brown.... wow....! Stunner, even by his standards.

Does anyone know what Mr Cairns thinks about extra powers for Holyrood now.... Does Mr Cairns know yet what he thinks about it? McChattering numpty!
89

David MacVicar,

web 17/02/2008 14:37:12
Broon uttering a complete load of garbage.
If anyone doubts the level of garbage, just compare everything else he states along side:

"I think Wendy Alexander will turn out to be a great leader"

His ability to say that with a straight face shows he still has some ability to impress.
90

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 17/02/2008 14:44:36
Right you are son. Another committee to discus a committee. A country is not a country unless it has fiscal independence.
Brown continues to live in a credibility-free zone.
91

yoric,

17/02/2008 15:22:04
Time for the Barnett formula to end.
Time for Scotland to stand on its own two feet.
92

Joe90,

Erehwon 17/02/2008 15:31:09
Does nobody else find it rather odd that Kosovo, a 'country' one seventh the size of Scotland, one fifteenth the per capita GDP, around 2 million inhabitants and no discernible resources, today declared independence from Serbia, supported by the EU, USA and probably tacitly approved by the UK? No doubt they will declare soon their intention to apply for membership of The EU. After all their national currency is the Euro!! And they claim Scotland is too 'poor' to be independent. I despair of the Scottish voter.
93

Scotsman in Dublin,

17/02/2008 16:19:17
#98, what i find most amazing in today's declaration of independence is that the UK goverment can approve Kosovo, which was until today a region, but spits bile at the idea of Scotland, a long established country, becoming independent. Yet again more hypochrosy from the British goverment.
94

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/02/2008 16:24:25
Broon was certainly looking his age on the Politics Show today. There is also no doubt that he has a fairly serious personality disorder. He couldn't bring himself to answer the question about Alex Salmond and the performance of the SNP Government. The pain in his eyes was there for all to see.

Brian Taylor, as expected, gave him an easy ride and exhibited the usual fore-lock tugging behaviour.
95

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 17/02/2008 16:29:00
99#Scotsman in Dublin

If the majority of Scots want independence, then it will happen....

Might happen sooner as you think. Labour - which is anti-English - is on the way out in both Scotland and England for different reasons. In England this will [unfortunately] mean another Tory majority in 2009 or 2010. In Scotland voters will abandon Labour for the Ace enn Pee
96

Carlung,

Haddington 17/02/2008 16:50:32
No 100 noted: " He couldn't bring himself to answer the question about Alex Salmond and the performance of the SNP Government. The pain in his eyes was there for all to see." No wonder! I bet you he's imagining that a further swing to the SNP will cause him to lose his safe Labour seat!
97

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 17:15:55
98. Have you not noticed that Kosovo has absolutely nothing in common with Scotland?

1. 27% of Scots favour independence - 90%+ of Kosovas do.
2. Only one mainstream party in Holyrood favours independence - all but the minority party in Pristina does.
3. Kosovo's economy is wrecked with 44% unemployment compared to Scotland's of 4.5%, the lowest in 33 years.
4. Kosovo's economy is not just propped up by the EU but IS the EU.
5. Kosovo was the target of an all-but genocidal campaign by its parent state less than a decade ago. It's parent state of Serbia has no cultural or historic link with the Kosova-Albanian majority population....although it does with the land itself which has great historic significance to Serbia.
6. Kosovo will never be accepted into the EU as Kosovo will empty as soon as free moevemtn around Europe is given. Thousands of Kosova's try or manage to enter the UK illegally each year. There are weekly flights between the UK and Pristina returning those caught.
7. Anyone who has seen Kosovo's economy at first hand will see that tax evasion and smuggling are endemic and would require a massive socio-economic overhaul to meet EU standards. 90% of the cars on the road were stolen from W Europe, predominantly Germany.
98

Splashie,

17/02/2008 17:24:25
103. Are the Green Party not "mainstream"

And did we have referendum on independence where 27% vote for? Polls have varied upward of 40% depending on the question - the only true read will be a referendum.

Good however that the EU is backing the right of self determination in Kosovo.
99

Neil,

Glasgow 17/02/2008 18:06:31
Anybody wanting to look at Kosovo will find that the "independence" is entirely spurious. It merely means that it will be run directly by the EU & NATO under what is effectively an Albanian flag rather than run by them under a UN flag with a small amount of UN input. It is "independence in Europe" taken to an extreme & a very good argument that independence can be rather cold out there.

In any case the country's only industries are drug lordism, kidnapping schoolgirls to sell to brothels abroad & toadying for western government workers, in all of which our genocidal KLA friends have established a monopoly.

Better to stay in the UK a thousand years than contemplate that obscenity.

100

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 18:07:41

Good evening Conan and karinm - fellow Mackee resistance members!

Funny to see the number of people who are waking up to the fact that Labour was and is a morally bankrupt and corrupt party. The motto handed from one leader to another has always been: "Remember, what is theirs is yours; what is yours is yours!"
101

Splashie,

17/02/2008 18:25:57
108. Evening Dunnie, is me, the laddie, under cover....McVeeshee mentalism for everywhere
102

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 18:32:23
105. A shock answer from Ayrshire Scot! Or is it Nova Scotia or is it Splashe or is it Splashie?

Am totally shocked.............Yawn.
103

karinxx,

17/02/2008 18:38:15
gordon brown has now admitted that he wants to remove the powers of the scottihs parliamant. This man must be removed from office by the scottish people.
104

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 18:59:55

109 - Just jumped from the Moderator thread.

Nice cover.

Despite our heroic efforts, yes, the MCVeeshee seems to be a hydra-headed monster.

Is 111 our fellow agent - you know, the sultry type I recruited who proved to be quite gymnastic on top of the piano at the Officer's Mess?
105

Splashie,

17/02/2008 19:17:05
112 - yes,, is Marinka
106

Conan the Librarian™,

17/02/2008 19:20:35
Dunnie, you are a hard man to track down,plungepool!
107

karinxx,

17/02/2008 19:23:39
dunnie feasgar math.
108

mrscotia,

Stirling 17/02/2008 19:44:15
My word what a lot of ranters, it seems most of the posters might have some connection with the SNP? Rev Ian Paisley? strange bedmate for Alex our First Miniser? What has Brown ever done against Scotland? What has Paisley ever done for Ireland?
Does Salmond hate the English? I doubt it?
109

john z,

edinburgh 17/02/2008 20:22:50
Of course, were we not enslaved to England, the democratically elected Scottish Government would in itself be able to determine tax matters for Scotland.

Sadly, at present, Scotland still has to go on bended knee, cap in hand, to ask the (dis)honourable gentlemen of Westminster for Permission.

It is hardly a suprise the SNP got elected, despite the best neffarious efforts of English MI5 spies.

My guess is, from now on, the SNP will never again be out of power in Scotland. MI5 will have to get over it. It's called democracy.
110

john z,

edinburgh 17/02/2008 20:25:46
Memo to: Mr.Brown, the turncoat in Downing street.

Don't even think about taking ANY power from the Scottish parliament, else the Scottish parliament may choose to take power from you. Tread very,very carefully.
111

BIG EYE,

Paisley 17/02/2008 20:46:10
What powers does Brown want returned to Westminster?

Any that might block Son of Trident ending up on the Thames rather than the Clyde for a start.

Scotland Beware!
112

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 17/02/2008 20:51:40
Is it possible, that GB is drawing up a double whammy? Let Scotland raise taxes, but still tax the Scots at the same level , with the extra going south of the border! He and his government are positive that we Scots are as thick as he & his party, like to portray us! We are treated as if we are peasants, with no brains!
Another worrying aspect rearing its head, is any involvement, of Wendy Alexander! This has cheating being shouted from the rooftops. She can play the fiddle better than Jimmy Shand, and Scott Skinner put together! As for Gordon Brown, he would sell his granny, if it would benefit england, ( small e deliberate )with Alisair Darling presiding!
113

Reckless,

hffu 17/02/2008 21:10:01
Skeptical Global Warming Scientists To Challenge "Consensus"
Hundreds of experts to meet in New York, will media blackball story to maintain climate myth?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2008/021508_challenge_consensus.htm
114

Tris,

dundee 17/02/2008 21:25:00
#119
You can bet your life that this about turn from Brown has some underhand purpose. Whatever else he is, he is not stupid. He's worked out a way to diddle us, and make it look like it's our government's fault, you can bet on it. Of course he had to make Cairns look like a complete moron (not hard), but what the hell, the guy doesn't really have a job anyway.

The thing I noticed about his on the telly today was that he's a really crap liar. Say what you like about Blair, but he was brilliant at it.
115

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 17/02/2008 22:27:48
The Scottish parliament already has tax raising powers so why doesn't this current administration use them in the way they see fit - if they don't beleive their own rhetoric regarding their policies then why should we?
116

Pro Libertate,

Stirling 17/02/2008 22:50:22
You are all reading far too much into this latest Labour Party spin. I think Labour at Westminster now realise that the Nat Genie is out of the bottle and is unlikely to be put back into it for some considerable time - if ever.
Brown has as much charisma as a 5 day old haddock, and is unfit to lead the Labour party, let alone the UK.
His decisions since taking over from Tony B Liar have hardly been of a decisive individual. His apparent support of Wendy 'it wisne me honest' Alexander underlines this.
Gordy needs all the help he can get, even lame duck leaders of ths Scottish Labour Party.
117

Tris,

17/02/2008 22:56:40
# 122 ''The Scottish parliament already has tax raising powers so why doesn't this current administration use them in the way they see fit - if they don't beleive their own rhetoric regarding their policies then why should we?''


If I'm not mistaken, they have tax varying powers ONLY on Income Tax at the basic level. Not really fiscal autonomy. Remember all the parties want this extra power. None of the Labour/liberal FM/DFMs raised income tax.

No tax rises are popular. Income tax rises are suicide.
118

Sambo,

The deep south 17/02/2008 23:13:50
People who only have one eye lack depth perception, I wonder if the PM lacks the perception to lead the Labour government.
I also wonder why a country as small as Scotland has so many layers of government as to tax its people into oblivion.
119

Florence,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 23:29:35
I suspect Wendy will be somewhat discomfited by Brown downgrading her commission to a "review" and taking it out of her hands. As for Menzies Campbell taking the Chairmanship of the review, this would be very unwise as he'd be pulling nonentity Stephen's strings. As I watched him on the Politics Show today I thought what a devious, lying toad Brown is. Beware!
120

snecked,

Argyll 17/02/2008 23:55:39
If the Scottish Goverment was to raise tax up to its 3% limit the Treasury would probably cut the block grant by a similar amount.
Remember when Scotland (including the Scottish Labour Party) opted to pay for free personal care for our elderly Westminster Labour took the attendance allowance away from Scotland in an act of spite and to try to make FPC unworkable and unaffordable.
For the few dissenting voices on this forum - remember we would not have had devolution without SNP campaign for Independence and we will not get better power for the Scottish Parliament without relentless SNP pressure. It is only a matter of time before the unionist parties start to break up over the constitutional question. There are honest and intelligent men and women among them but there are also those who know which way the wind is blowing and would like to get onto the winning side to stay on the gravy train. When the chancers start walking towards us we'll know were almost home. I hope we have the sense to recognise the ones we don't want. I wonder who will be the first MP or MSP to cross the floor.
121

langtonian,

scotus 18/02/2008 00:03:56
#53&54
"Rome was built in a day" is the historical drift of both postings-which of course is wrong.

Holyrood has always been accepted by all Scots ,other than SEPERATIST Gnats to be a forum that would evolve over aperiod of time,as it is so doing.The "crash bang wallop" of instant change is laid at the door of an SNP.executive.An executive that will not be in place after 2011 election.SNP policy has all the appearance of "desperate action in the face of dimunation of convincing support for their 10 month old manifesto and governance.
122

langtonian,

scotus 18/02/2008 00:14:10
#127 snecked Argyle.
Talking of chancers "walking" the biggest chancer of all being First Minister Alex Salmond will have walked his party into oblivion by 2011

"himself will have reversed gear and taken up a sinecure position on the benches of Westminster.
123

Cam3,

18/02/2008 00:18:56
What nonsense langtonian - the SNP have done more in a little over eight months than the labour party done in eight years of corrupt, atypical lib-lab mismanagement. Since LOSING the election, they have showed themselves for the absolute joke they tangibly are! ;o)

Every week! And it's not just nationalists who notice it either I'm afraid langtonian. Europe has been impressed by the SNP's civic nationalism, and our first minister has won plenty of awards and some serious plaudits from across the political spectrum!

Of particular amusement is the absolutely toothless, comical way they managed to lose whatever cred they had!

Nicol Stephen, in particular, is nationally recognised as a gutless wonder [what a moron he made of himself with the Trump thing] and I genuinely feel sorry for his [ex] voters - ask yourself, if a party comes into the parliament, a minority administration - and CANNOT for the LIFE of them implement a single policy outside their hilarious 'stop the nats at all counts' mode, well - they let down their voters, and their country...

...and their country rightly wants shot of them.

I'm often intrigued by the unionist view of SNP voters as separatist. What? Is it the fact that we want to separate from a leeching, unbalanced, scaremongering, environmentally adrift, resource hungry, and unfair union - whilst joining - with open arms - the global community [inc. our neighbours on these islands!]

What a dunce. Same tired, nonsensical unionist GARBAGE.
124

langtonian,

scotus 18/02/2008 00:26:45
#126 Florence
Witches are noted for having a working knowledge of "toads" broomsticks and,screechingly high pitched manic laughter,should you require to fill in a cv for a work permit, do remember to add the given description.

Your comment vis-a-vis Gordon Brown, comes under a heading of political Ignorance
125

langtonian,

scotus 18/02/2008 00:48:57
#130Cam3
The vibes that you project in relation to my Comments suggest to me you are among an ever present phalanx of SNP party voters who can truly be said to be persons with "myopic fixed ideas".
That you are in a democracy fully entitled to apply tunnel vision for your wishes ,hopes ,and ambitions is sancrosanct, being of the SNP persuasion is your personal choice.

Best to remember that a greater number of Scottish voters are not in the SNP.camp,and it is right and proper that the greater number will, in all likelyhood prevail.
126

Comment is Free,

U.S. 18/02/2008 06:14:26
It is good to see that bureaucratic theory is working. Westminster is beginning to fear for its life as the Scottish Parliament re-establishes itself after a 300 year hiatus.

My question is when will the Labour Party of Scotland form from the remnants of the New Labour Party Scottish Branch?
127

Cam3,

18/02/2008 07:43:48
Langtonian, you really need to take some writing classes sir - from your ability, it seems your 'vibe' is more dismembered than the current Labour Party - a constricted, ineffectual Unionist philippic with all the alacrity of a doped hamster.

You'll forgive me if I don't award you with some manner of deerstalker in figuring out my believe in the SNP, and a forward thinking, financially free and globally involved Scotland?

So, to mirror your own reviling copy, 'best to remember' that:

- the SNP ARE the party in power
- DID accrue more votes than the arrogant and London-led Labour Party in Scotland

Whilst also being careful not to forget that:

- they ARE CURRENTLY racing ahead in the polls
- and WILL form the future government of Scotland for many, many blessed, democratic years to come.

Exciting times, and a new start to an auld song.
128

aljok.23,

the world 16/11/2008 12:32:36
Of course Scotland will be left with nothing other than the suit it was born in ,before the Empires powers will stop stealing from the Scots but I will vote independence all the same. Walk away and start again. Independent from a dictatorial power which creates misery for anyone it desires to. We have a toothless population. Poor who wish to remain on handouts and rich who align with the leaders who made them so. To all the people of the British Isles who revel in the misery the rest of the UK will face just to keep the rich happy, you know who and what you are.

 

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