Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Sunday, 11th May 2008 Change Date

Evening News / Sony Centre Reverse Auction

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Scotland On Sunday site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

12 ministers 'to quit' over embryo bill



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 23 March 2008
TWELVE Government ministers were last night poised to quit office over the embryo research bill row, leaving Gordon Brown "no option" but to back down and allow a free vote.
Senior Labour sources claim the Prime Minister faces a catastrophic rebellion over the Government-backed bill, which would allow the creation of part-human, part-animal embryos for research.

A U-turn by Brown would represent the biggest humiliation to his leadership since he came to power as Labour leader and PM in June last year.

The row exploded last week after Cardinal Keith O'Brien, leader of Scotland's Roman Catholics, described the move as a "monstrous Frankenstein" plan. Brown is being told by his own supporters that he must offer MPs a free vote to avoid a ministerial clear-out, which could include Catholic ministers such as Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly, Scottish Secretary Des Browne and Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy.

Brown's only public concession so far is to allow ministers to abstain, but it is believed this has failed to reassure some who want to be free to vote against the bill. One source said last night: "We could be looking at around 12 resignations. Either that, or they will say: 'I'm going to vote against and you can sack me.' Non-Catholic ministers are getting just as much pressure from their own churches and constituencies. It is really intense."

Northern Ireland minister Paul Goggins is a Catholic thought to have concerns about the bill. Government whips Frank Roy and Thomas McAvoy are also Catholics and are understood to have concerns. Business Minister Stephen Timms describes himself as a Christian Socialist. Other Catholic Ministers outside the Cabinet include David Cairns, Mike O'Brien, Pat McFadden and Jim Murphy.

Former cabinet minister Stephen Byers warned that Brown risked a backlash from voters if he insisted on wielding the whip over the issue. He said: "On matters like this I want to reach my own decision and not be instructed how to vote."

Several Scottish Labour MPs last night came forward to urge Brown to offer a free vote.

Mohammed Sarwar, the Labour MP for Glasgow Central, said he would abstain or vote against the bill because of his own beliefs as a Muslim and because he believed it represented the views of his constituents. "There should be a free vote, it's a matter of conscience," he said.

Ayrshire MP Brian Donohoe, who backs the plans, added: "I believe it is right that there is a free vote."

And Catholic Labour MP Jim Devine, who also backs the bill, said: "It's a similar issue to Trident. It should be a conscience vote. I don't want to see colleagues resign."

First Minister Alex Salmond – who backs a free vote – offered his qualified support for the bill last night. A spokesman for Salmond said: "This is a matter of conscience for SNP MSPs. He supports the bill subject to some safeguards."

Brown is reluctant to allow the whole bill to be a free vote because he considers it to be key Government legislation, extremely important to the UK's position at the cutting edge of stem-cell research.

A spokeswoman for the Prime Minister said it was still possible a free vote could be allowed, although they believed it was best for ministers who opposed the bill to abstain.

"The Prime Minister believes we should be guided by the best medical advice and by science," the spokeswoman added.

The Catholic Church in Scotland continued to pile pressure on Brown, saying it would name and shame MPs who supported the plans, and urged Catholics to campaign against them.

The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales entered the debate by calling on Brown to allow a free vote on the controversial bill. The Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, said: "I think Catholics in politics have got to act according to their Catholic convictions, so have other Christians, so have other politicians."

Campaigners in favour of the bill believe that even if a free vote is allowed they will comfortably win the day, predicting a majority of about 100.

Lib Dem MP Evan Harris said: "On a free vote, any Labour rebels would be exceeded in number by Liberal Democrats and Conservatives voting for the bill. The Labour Party is having an unnecessary fight with itself."

Several Labour MPs and peers led a counter-attack against the Catholic Church. Labour peer George Foulkes accused the cardinal of scaremongering. "We passed this bill on a whipped vote in the Lords without this kind of furore. It's about putting DNA into a cell, not tampering with human life or genetics in the way that Keith O'Brien suggests. The real humanity is with people that support research that saves people's lives," he said.

Labour MP Brian Iddon added: "The Roman Catholic church is being extremely emotive and creating muddle. I've had people writing to me saying, 'We don't want people who are half human, half cow walking down our street.'"

Labour MP Gordon Banks, whose brother has early-onset Alzheimer's, said the bill should be whipped because it significantly improve research into conditions such as Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

Banks, the MP for Ochil and South Perthshire, said it was reasonable to assume that the Prime Minister's view was influenced by his son's cystic fibrosis, a condition that could be helped by stem-cell research.

The Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and SNP are allowing a free vote on the bill.

LEADER: "PERVERSELY, ON THIS ISSUE CARDINAL O'BRIEN IS POLITICALLY RIGHT BUT MORALLY WRONG"

The full article contains 934 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 March 2008 12:25 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 00:10:21
Only twelve?

Writing is on the wall. Goodbye Broon, hello Alan Johnston next leader of the Labour party.
2

I-Mac,

23/03/2008 00:13:13
A "free vote". Is that one where the Catholic Church pulls the strings?
3

Scott Webb....,

23/03/2008 00:19:36
I see youtube are doing their bit :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_pf1sACEkU
4

Resolutions,

23/03/2008 00:23:34
#2 Suspect that a fair number of non-Catholics are a bit incomfortable with this proposal too.

This is really a question of conscience and should be a 'free vote'
5

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 00:29:08
'We don't want people who are half human, half cow walking down our street.'"

That seems rather a harsh description of most Labour MP’s.

What harm have cows done to society?
6

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 00:36:32
"half human, half cow"

Has he never been to Dumfries on a Saturday night
7

Richardinho,

23/03/2008 00:44:39
It's not really a question of conscience. More a question of some people not understanding science.
8

Vincent-W,

23/03/2008 00:49:21
The Catholic church is totally consistent.

Whether MPs vote for or against should be up to their own conscience after consultation with their constituents.

I-Mac - you're a pillock!
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 00:49:30
Well I must confess, that after trying for a 'Baby'..now 10years and about 6years for IVF, to which in Edinburgh has an about 39% success rate, which is very good, 'by-the-way',
That even My DYW and I, would never want treatment that used "part-human, part-animal embryos"

After all its a Baby we Want not a, 'cross breed'

And what would you do with the 'long tail'? :-))

Quite Right for the,

"12 ministers 'to quit' over embryo bill"

Some of us still have, 'Morals' why back down,?
10

Marky Bhoy,

Dinfermline 23/03/2008 00:50:49

No ( poster 2 ) you vote how you think not how you are told to think
11

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glesca' 23/03/2008 01:12:54
#9-Charles Linskaill, Edinburgh.

Charles, didn't I tell you how a pal of mine managed to get his wife 'preggies' as he followed his Doctor's advice and you replied, 'as it was still winter you'd wait for Springtime to try it.'..well guess what, it's time to try it!! "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"
I hope you decide to try again and I wish you and your wife well and I'm confident it 'Will Work'!
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
12

,

23/03/2008 01:13:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

,

23/03/2008 01:19:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 23/03/2008 01:24:10
Half-human half-cow? Is this a reference to the Wendy Edinburgh photo-shoot?
15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/03/2008 01:26:34
Haggis MacBagpipes @#11,
But it was snowing here today in Edinburgh!

I dont wan it to..'fall-off' :-))

But thankyou for your kind thoughts!
16

Calum Crubag,

23/03/2008 02:06:29
Where in the Bible is this forbidden? And do Catholics induldge in any other 'unnatural' scientific-inspired activities like driving cars, using electricity or taking paracetemol?

Or are prayers enough to heal illnesses?

Time to end faith schools now. We don't want these Christian Taleban anywhere near power and influencing our children.
17

JMKC,

U.S. 23/03/2008 03:00:20
The bio companies keep trying the same thing here in the U.S. They try passing bills in individual states, some of which have, unfortunately, been passed, and they dupe people into thinking this is a boon to mankind.

Embryonic stem cells are disasterously expensive, purely hit and miss, and if they were successful, you can bet there would have been plenty of money put into it by investors and venture capitalists!
Instead, they spend their time and money to dupe taxpayers into footing the bill so the scientists can play Frankenstein.

You really have to ask yourself where this will all end when a scientist has already applied for a patent for "creation".
Imagine, one person who has the corner market.
Will he be able to legally prevent natural conception???

By comparison, adult stem cell procedures are vastly successful now at over 60 procedures, and more every day. Thereby, making it unnecessary for embryonic stem cell research.

People are traveling to China every day to participate in auto stem cell procedures that are successful.
Here in the U.S. auto stem cells are used to regrow bone, regrow brain cells, heart cells, etc.

The possibilities are endless as procedures are being tested for approval by the Food and Drug Administration. Those who want to toy with embryos downplay the importance of auto and adult stem cell procedure success purposely, to keep you focused on getting them the embryos and fetuses and tissues from abortions that they crave.
18

Rozz Fyffe,

Scotland 23/03/2008 03:07:38
this is already going on in china usa russia japan and the uk ................ if you think I am wrong then wake up to reality
19

Larry Hallatt,

Chesley Canada 23/03/2008 03:15:34
Church groups and clergy that have special tax exemptions should lose their status once they become involved in politics.

Are these clergy registered as government lobbyist if not, lets fine them!!! The state must remove special municipal tax exemptions and fully assess church properties.

if any Minister chooses to resign, accept them and dit adieu!

Their are lots of back benchers that would relish moving to the front seats and enjoy the full bowl of cake pudding.
20

Larry Hallatt,

Chesley Canada 23/03/2008 03:27:09
For those that wish to get pregnant and firmly believe in Genesis and the story of Noah 's Ark..........are you using the standard Catholic and biblical approved system incest.

Remember in Genesis god cloned Eve from Adam's rib and had their children mate to populate the world.

After the great flood, according to the Hebrew bible incest once again was used to re populate the human race.

How can any Catholic now claim their god does not approve of various sexual activities and means of reproduction.

The story of Joseph and Mary is a story of god impregnating the Joseph's virgin wife Mary. Today, we would call that rape and bedding down the neighbours wife.

Did he forget what he wrote on the stones that were given to Moses's ........adultery is universally celebrated in the Christian church!

Or was he simply taking the king and barons long tradition of bedding the bride of the peasants.
21

Rozz Fyffe,

Scotland 23/03/2008 04:11:33
Larry. you show ignorance God did not impregnate Joseph's wife Mary, Joseph was not married to Mary at that time.

Also Catholics by their following the Anti-Christ are not Christians.

22

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 23/03/2008 06:19:22
Never have I read such ill-informed comment in my life, sorry I have to admit maybe I have, likes of Eddie and Co with their political comments.
This is research into the production of stem cells that and nothing else, the quest for knowledge has always been the driving force. Had the scientists listened to the Church of Rome, had they not put up with being excommunicated by these same Christian Ethics we would still be in the dark ages.
The ethical question here is do we extend our knowledge now in this country or do we wait until we have the permission of a new Pope, one who’s ethical background is not in question?
Historically Rome did not like Galileo and many others, they locked them up they burnt them at the stake, is this the level of mentality that peruses the minds of those “celibate monks”
23

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada - ex Perth & Glesca' 23/03/2008 06:39:42
#15 - Charles Linskaill, Edinburgh.

It was snowing here today also, and our temperature at this moment is minus 11°C and the Windchill makes it feel like minus 20°C ... I agree, just a tad too cold for THAT expiriment, but it was just a wee reminder of how all yer dreams could come true, if Mrs. Linskaill and yourself try that when the weather is a wee bit warmer!
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
24

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 23/03/2008 07:00:57
Good to know that some MPs are not just voting fodder.
25

JG,

Fife 23/03/2008 07:43:04
I'm not sure about the idea of mutant embryos. It certainly doesn't sit well with me either but parliamentary voting shouldn't be decided upon by the cardinal. The MPs were voted in because of their political inclinations not because they are members of the Catholic party.
26

Stephen101,

Who will ever vote for a Cathlic MP again? 23/03/2008 07:43:44
Next election.

The voters will ask their candidates - are you a Roman Catholic? Will you represent me, or the wishes of your church? Which is more important to you? Tell me what you decide and then I will decide whether to vote for you or not.

The religious faith of every candidate is now an issue.

O'Brien has let an evil genie out of the bottle.

27

wayne bijlyeerheid,

23/03/2008 07:43:46
They're still voting fodder it's just that they are being ordered to vote in a certain way by an unelected undemocratic exclusive organisation, the catholic church.
When they stand for election they should tell us that their religious dogma will take first place over their duty to represent all constituents.
28

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 08:01:23
17. Good to hear a voice of concern from the USA.

Where ultra-fundamentalist Christians campaign to ban the teaching of evolution in schools, and introduce bills to that effect state by state.

Where ultra-fundamentalist Christians campaign to ban a woman's right to choose, and introduce bills to that effect state by state.

Where concern for human life stops abruptly at the borders of that country and concern for the dignity of human life doesn't travel as far as Guantanamo, Abu Grhaib and rendition/torture. Where you veto laws to allow continued use of water-boarding and torture, but pass laws to halt stem cell research aimed at curing disease.

Embryonic stem cell research is required for research into a range of human conditions, auto stem cells research is limited to a restricted number of cell lines from which stem cells can be cultured.

Talking of patenting, the USA was the only government which backed patenting (by its own agencies, the NIH) of the human genome and human gene sequences - which would have disastrously slowed and impeded research, for profit.

Thanks for your concern about UK research policy, but I think you have greater human life and dignity of life issues to be worrying about at home there in the USA.
29

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 23/03/2008 08:03:37
#27 wayne.

I'm not an RC, yet I wouldn't support this Bill either. You don't need to be religious at all to see the Bill's flaws.
30

eric,

23/03/2008 08:08:29
The church revolts me, its like a paedo shouting it from the roofs.Most folk in UK will be agianst it anyway.The church is trying to make up moral ground and trying to repair damage done to it by paedo preists.But im afraid Mud sticks.Extremism at its worst.
31

Vincent-W,

23/03/2008 08:10:45
#16 - as I said Calum - Pavlov's Dog has nothing on you.

One mention of Catholicism - and out comes the bile.

32

It's me!,

23/03/2008 08:19:02
I thought MP's were there to represent their constituents views, not their own. Silly me!
33

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 08:29:06
31. Vincent-W

do you support the Catholic churh's campaigns against condoms in areas with high HIV transmssion rates? The Catholic Church ran advertising in Brazil, such an area, warning that condom users would go to hell. Do you think that helps human health?

It helps human health as much as the Cathloic church's regressive attitude to research whose aim is alleviation of human suffering.
34

JG,

Fife 23/03/2008 08:34:59
#29 Rulesbutnotrulers
And you are entitled to that opinion - as is the cardinal. It's not having the opinion that is the problem here, it's someone who is unelected trying to to drive the actions of people who were elected, just because they all go to the same church.
35

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 23/03/2008 08:43:27
#32 It's me.

The MPs who don't support this Bill ARE representing this constituent's views!

The case against is valid even without the RCs saying a thing.
36

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 08:46:33
35. Are they supporting the views of their constituent's who have, or have family or friends who suffer from, Alzheimers, Motor Neurone Disease, Parkinson's disease, spinal injury or many other conditions?
37

happy english,

London 23/03/2008 08:46:50
Who are the Catholic Church to say what is right and what is not, they want to get there own House in order how many perverted priest have ignored. Hypocrites.
38

Richardinho,

23/03/2008 08:47:20
If this really was about creating 'Frankensteins' then I would be against it too. But it isn't. People really need to look at the science rationally rather than making uniformed emotional decisions.
39

Unimpressed one,

23/03/2008 08:49:25
I think we would be well rid of any politicians who resign over this. Religion has no place in government.
40

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 08:52:16
# 24 NotaRulerbutaholyroller,

"Good to know that some MPs are not just voting fodder."

Would that some of these MPs had shown a similar independence when it came to following Blair to war.
41

,

23/03/2008 08:53:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 08:54:22
38. Well said, it is about creating cells, entirely with human DNA, for research - not hybrid animals or children, or cells with mixed human/ animal nuclear DNA.

43

scothighland,

23/03/2008 09:06:27
26#
you are right this is what happens.Religion & politics don't mix well.
But please do not let the churches pull the strings of government remember Ireland before the EU
The catholic churh may as well have been the government.We cannot allow this to happen here!!!!
44

FTH22inarow,

23/03/2008 09:08:58
religion should have no place in politics, full stop, how can you take anyone serious who believes the pap that the church preaches, If it was upto them we'd all still be stuck in the dark ages
45

The Strategist,

23/03/2008 09:14:49
Let these ministers resign. I don't want a Taliban Govt where decisions are made on religious grounds.
46

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:19:30
"A U-turn by Brown would represent the biggest humiliation to his leadership since he came to power as Labour leader and PM in June last year."

...it would also let the electorate see that however Gordon might be affected personally, he was big enough to admit that democracy is the way we do things and have a free vote on things that matter.... not just for fox-hunting and the docking of dogs' tails. Can't all of you bigots not stick to the issue and stop ranting and spewing your bile?
47

Forward not Back,

23/03/2008 09:20:02
This is a matter of conscience like abortion, euthanasia and capital punishment. Simple as that. Typical control freakery from Brown to try and do otherwise.
48

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:22:12
I hope there are many more. We'd think more of Gordon if he had the backbone to follow the dictates of democracy.
49

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:24:22
Don't talk mince. You know that you like to see your posts here don't you? Well, in allowing your posting to be shown, that's what's called fairness...democracy. Get it?
50

JJI,

Livingston 23/03/2008 09:29:09
Having read a lot of the comments above and what Gordon Brown and Co are planning is it little wonder the our society is in the state it is in. Wouldn't Adolf Hitler loved to have lived sixty years later, after all this is the rubbish that he was spouting forth and we fought a world war and one it now Gordon and Co are prepared to give it by forcing his own MP's to vote on it. This is a free vote issue and I would suggest that any MP no matter what your party allegiances are should be prepared to lose their seats at the next election for the voting for such a bill.

So wake up, scrap the bill, listen to society and to what is morally correct.
51

FTH22inarow,

23/03/2008 09:29:25
its not democracy when the catholic church tells you how to vote though is it?
52

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:32:03
#16 Calum Crubag. Maybe you're wired up wrongly too.
53

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:33:30
#27. You have the perfect nome de plume.
54

Aulikki,

Loch Ness 23/03/2008 09:36:02
I totally agree with 43, 44 and 45. And cannot see Gordon having enough backbone to let these 12 resign (cannot even believe that they would ever resign; only they know which strings to pul Gordon!) And isn't it amazing how popes and all church-men and other 'moralists', so against all experimental science are always the first to spend any amounts of money for medicine to themselves alive?!!! How long did they keep the previous pope alive with modern medicines?! They only preach their superstitious nonsense to others!!!
55

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:36:28
# 30 Can't you see that, regardless of the topic, a free vote should never be stifled. If the majority think as you think then it'll be a 'no contest'.....just wait and see how alone you and other empty heads are.
56

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:42:33
#33.....see how effective condoms are in making Scotland one, if not the, highest area in Europe with unwanted pregnancies, let alone unnecessary ones. .... all thanks to the liberal ineptness of our legislators....looking for cures rather than prevention by teaching morality. The intention with a condom is to snuff out potential life from the outset, which is wrong, and will not stop the spread of Aids.....if you only understood how this happens.
57

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 09:44:54
56. Condoms do not help prevent the spread of HIV? "if you only understood how this happens" - go on, tell me how this happens.
58

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:45:13
# 36. I wouldn't mind reading your postings if you had a knowledgable insight into the subject. Get the facts right.
59

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 09:45:59
56. "snuff out potential life"? I see, condoms are killing, "potential life"? Masturbatiion too I would think.
60

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:46:03
#37. Why?....are you going to be the one to cast the first stone?
61

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:46:43
#39.. Go back to sleep.
62

The Spook in Leith,

Leith 23/03/2008 09:47:18
I really do admire the politicians that want a free vote on this very important issue, however lets hope they vote for common sense and support Gordon Brown on this issue.

I think the public have to be educated on this issue more because some have this attitude that the scientists are dealing in Frankenstein style science when in fact what they are doing is tyring to find a new method of cure for those who are so unfortunate to have a serious and incurable illness.

The catholic church and its attitudes towards this issue are an utter disgrace and little short of barbaric.
63

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:49:06
#26,43,44, Is there ever an occasion where you feel there should be a free vote in parliament? What about one to get rid of bigotry?
64

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 09:49:35
58. What facts did I have wrong? Your pithy little posts are adding nothing to the discussion - "go back to sleep", "get the facts right"?
65

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:53:04
#59.. Correct. Got it in one you clever fellow.
66

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:55:53
#57 Are you seriously telling me that you don't know the ways that Aids can be spread???? .... something that is being taught in primary schools??/?? and you're making posts here????? Yes, go back to sleep. Here are your pyjamas
67

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:57:06
#62 Get your facts in order. read up a bit and then come back. Here are your pyjamas
68

The Spook in Leith,

Leith 23/03/2008 09:58:34
#59 Ayrshire Scot™
"snuff out potential life"? I see, condoms are killing, "potential life"? Masturbatiion too I would think.


Mastrubation is a large part of my life and without it, well it would have the potential to drive me bonkers.
69

FrankyB,

The Vatican 23/03/2008 10:00:01
Can we have a free vote to vote these religious monsters out please?

Can woman avoid being impregnated by spirits while they sleep (is this rape?) and having to give birth to so-called hybrid humans just so that we can then crucify hem later on a cross? Sounds like science fiction doesn't it!!

70

The Spook in Leith,

Leith 23/03/2008 10:01:40
,Airdrie 23/03/2008 09:57:06
#62 Get your facts in order. read up a bit and then come back. Here are your pyjamas


Angry little man i do have my facts in order and just because i support this science and you do not does not make me and others wrong.
I prefer boxer shorts to pyjamas,now go away and come back after Mass
71

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:07:02
66. You said that condoms do not help prevent the spread of HIV. COuld you please explain how it spreads and why condoms do not help stop transmission? (PS - AIDS is a clinical desecription of a grouping of symptoms associated with HIV infection, so does not "spread" - HIV "spreads")

72

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 10:08:30
#68 is now afraid at what photos Spook may choose to share next....

Have you considered joining W.A. (Wankersanonymous)?
73

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 23/03/2008 10:09:15
All you have to do to bring out all the nutters is have an article about stem cells.
74

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:09:40
72. Hehehe. Persoanlly I think he needs a hand.
75

Big Hairy Catholic O'Darra,

Ibrox 23/03/2008 10:14:18
I shall be boycotting my catholic place or worship until they see sense on this issue. I strongly urge my fellow catholics to do the same. Turn your backs on the silly Fathers.
76

The Spook in Leith,

Leith 23/03/2008 10:23:03
#72 Oscar..lol.(Wankersanonymous)have you a number for that.? hee hee...
Hey im fixing my Website tonight soz i will have new pics but honest they will be clean???? Your wife will be free to look without any obscenities poking out at her this time.

#72..Ayrshire..is that an offer?

77

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:25:31
76, erm, can't speak with my mouth full :-)
78

The Spook in Leith,

Leith 23/03/2008 10:28:53
#77 Nuff said..
79

King Billy.,

embryo juggling 23/03/2008 10:34:18
Bloody catholic and unionist drones.
80

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

23/03/2008 10:35:40
56...The Catholic Church is responsible for the spread of HIV in Africa...and now they are trying to ban the advertising of condoms in the Phillipines and raise marriage from 18 to 24....I mean, WHO do these people think they are, playing god with other people's lives?...they need to get a life, thats the problem.
81

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:37:30
80. Indeed, the catholic church ran adverts in South America telling people they would go to hell for using condoms, to counter health education campaigns aimed at preventing the spread of HIV.

That is their contribution to public health.
82

The Ninja,

Bonnie Scotland 23/03/2008 10:51:19
Hmm, another intelligent discussion here I see, would it not be better discussing the pros & cons of embryo/stem cell research ?
The Scotsman has gone to a lot of trouble to let us know who the catholics are, why ? is that what it sees as more important ?
Of course they are jumping up & down just now, it's what they believe in, the same as the anti-war protestors jump up & down for something they believe in, the same as Greenpeace, well, you get the idea.
83

Toast,

23/03/2008 10:52:28
In a democracy ALL VOTES should be free votes
84

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 10:52:42
#70 Been already. Hope you sleep well. God bless.
85

JG,

Fife 23/03/2008 10:53:19
#35 Rulesbutnotrulers
You're kind of missing the point. It's fine for a person to think things (anything) through, weigh up the evidence and make an informed decision. If that was the premise on which these MPs were making THEIR decisions it would be acceptable. MY difficulty with this is that an organisation who was NOT elected to govern are trying to drive the parliament. It is not their right to do that.
86

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 10:54:49
#71 Up all night on that one? You needn't have bothered. Most everyone else seems to know. Don't feel bad about it. Ask a friend who'll tell you the truth and not lead you on.
87

King Billy.,

Govan orange lodge 23/03/2008 10:55:17
This is to serious a topic for a stupid church and its dwindling band of outrages bigots to get involved with.
However they may seem to be smarting by the recent number of polish cleaners and bin men swelling their normally empty halls.
88

mr angry,

ayrshire 23/03/2008 10:57:45
The key point in this , is that these clowns were elected to represent the views of all their constituents , not their religion or their own blinkered position. If their religion prevents them doing their job they should resign and let someone else do it properly.
89

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 10:58:42
#75 Why do you describe yourself as Catholic when you are obviously not one..or at least, not a practising one?
90

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 10:58:47
86. Phil, given you say condoms don't help prevent the transmission of HIV, but claim to know how HIV really spreads, I think you would be doing us a public health favour if your shared your knowledge. Do tell how HIV spreads and why condoms are not relevant.
91

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 10:59:30
#79 I suppose you meant to say something there. PC not working properly?
92

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:00:32
#80 Where have you been all your life? Read up on current affairs and come back. Here are your pyjamas too/
93

Phil241106,

Airdrie 23/03/2008 11:01:34
#82. Yes, spot on and have a free vote. Right?
94

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/03/2008 11:02:21
92. There are no pyjamas attached to your message, you do know that don't you? Can you catch HIV via cyber-sharing of pyjamas by the way, just before you send me anymore.
95

,

23/03/2008 11:07:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
96

Bird of Prey, Will watch what i say.,

23/03/2008 11:13:03
On this Easter some will have Easter eggs and lets hope the scientists have embryo eggs.

Now i went for a flutter to go and visit my mate in Oban (The Robin of Danolly)and he took me to a country and western line dancing class.
Well Hell Mary of Barra, this was something else.

I was told that i was a natural at country and western line dancing. Now hear goes...(The movements)

"To the left to the right"

"step back step forward"

"Turn around turn back"

"shoogle left leg out bring it in"

"shoogle right leg out bring it in"

"Bend down stand up"

"stomp stomp stomp stomp"

Q the trilogy..1min later.

"Largs millport troon"

"stomp stomp stomp"

i have to admit it was fun but not a patch on RnB..uh huh
97

pascali,

east coast 23/03/2008 11:15:37
I am not at all sure how the Catholic MP can be confident that he/she is conscienciously representing the majority of his constituents. For example in my constituency where from a previous vote on a matter championed by the Catholic church leads me to believe my MP(Catholic) will vote against even though Protestant schools outnumber Catholic schools in the constituency by a factor of four - crude yardstick of measurement I admit.

Is this religious interfernce not what we are afraid of in Islam ?
98

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

23/03/2008 11:18:28
If the anti-catholics above could stop for a moment and actually consider the point at issue which is whether MPs should have a free vote.

That is really all that the Catholic church is asking for.

The issue really is one of effective democracy...the proposal is clearly a matter of conscience and it is a long tradition in Parliament that MPs shouldn't be subject to the whip in such circumstances.

The Catholic Church speaks against the use of condoms, but argues for chastity within marriage...if the Church's advice was followed, AIDS wouldn't be a significant problem.
Condoms frequently burst - almost guaranteed during anal sex and not at all uncommon during vaginal sex - and do NOT offer total protection. Condoms do no more than reduce the rate of infection.

Scientifically, the best approach to tackling AIDS is to follow the advice of the Catholic Church and keep sex within wedlock. That is in line with all the other teachings of the church. Those who lack the self-dicipline to follow that rule put themselves and others at risk.
99

beckypumps1,

Fife 23/03/2008 11:25:45
16
I am with you on this one, and for the record I am not religious .and am weary of people that are but each to their own.

If we are to heal our society all the kids should be in multi faith schools.
100

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 23/03/2008 11:26:25
I'm a smidge concerned about Phil and his obsession with other mens jamjams
101

King Billy.,

23/03/2008 11:29:03
98
I think your drivel is better suited to the Celtic and Rangers threads. Don't come on this thread bleeding on about anti catholics and playing the moral high ground. I have read your bigoted comments and you are an utter shambles.
102

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

23/03/2008 11:30:00
101

Better get a wipe and clean the spittle of your screen.
103

Tarchin,

Lothian 23/03/2008 11:31:00
People in the western world are living longer. The incidence of dementias such as Alzheimer's, Lewy Body Disease (LBD) and Parkinson's disease is increasing and new research into possible cures is needed. As someone who has a younger sister badly affected by LBD i am in favour of the hybrid embryo bill. I feel that the government has failed to explain to the public just what such research involves and the limitations that will be imposed on researchers. Such an explanation would go a long way to allaying the fears of the Frankenstein half man half cow lobby led by Cardinal O'Brien who should know better.
104

Patrick O'Shaunnessy,

23/03/2008 11:33:06
103

Don't you agree that it should be a free vote ?
105

Expat in Amsterdam,

Amsterdam 23/03/2008 11:35:28
NOBODY, neither from church nor government should be able to tell anybody how to vote. MP's are elected individually and locally, and should therefore be able to vote freely and individually,reflecting the wishes of their electorate.
The idea of voting for the party view, voting to the whip is non-democratic and should not be enforced, in fact it should be forbidden.
As to stem-cell research, although I can understand some peoples' fears, I have mixed feelings about it. I know some people who quite fancy the idea of sporting a pair of horns on their heads (mind you, Amsterdam IS a bit strange).
But parliamentary voting MUST be free!