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Secret talks on London bullet train



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Published Date: 01 June 2008
A MULTI-billion-pound plan to build a high-speed train link between Scotland and London is back on track following secret talks between the UK and Scottish Governments.
Rail ministers from Edinburgh and London met last week for preliminary discussions on laying down the spine of Britain an entirely new line, which could cut journey times from north to south to just three hours. The talks have been kept private in a bid to dampen public expectation, with ministers on both sides of the border balking at the vast cost of the scheme.

Consultants estimate that it could cost up to £30bn to build a line capable of handling the Eurostar trains, which could travel at speeds of up to 220mph. However, rail industry bosses and pressure groups are now increasing the pressure on ministers to act, claiming the economic and environmental benefits of the line would outweigh the initial costs.

The meeting last Wednesday between UK rail minister Tom Harris and SNP Transport Minister Stewart Stevenson marks the first time that the UK Government and the SNP administration have met to discuss the rail project. The meeting was called by SNP ministers, who want to maintain strong transport links with England. The new momentum behind the project follows the successful bedding in of the new high-speed Eurostar link between London and Paris and Brussels, which opened in November 2007.

Journey times between London and Paris have been cut to two hours and 15 minutes, half the time it takes to get from London to Glasgow. Engineers believe it would take a decade of planning and building before the trains could be used, by which time the current network is likely to be overwhelmed by demand.

Pressure groups say the high environmental cost of short-haul air travel, plus the need to link up Scotland and the north of England with the new London Eurostar service requires a "High Speed Two" link down the country.

A feasibility study into a new high-speed line by the consultants Atkins in March concluded that either a west coast or an east coast line – which would cost between £9bn and £12bn – would produce huge economic benefits to the country. A third option – building a £30bn network down both east and west Britain – would bring economic benefits of more than £60bn, it added. The report concluded: "High-speed operation is required to attract sufficient passengers to switch from road and air."

Only this, it added, would "make construction of a new line economically or financially viable".

Despite the anticipated boost to the economy of the line, both Holyrood and Westminster administrations are facing major financial problems.

There is also a potential problem in the discussions because

industry sources suggest Scottish ministers would not only have to pay for the line in Scotland, but would also have to meet a substantial part of the costs in the north of England, as there is little incentive for UK ministers to build a line north of the heavily populated Manchester-Leeds corridor.

On the positive side, Gordon Brown is under pressure from Labour MPs and MSPs who say that a north-south high-speed line could become a "grand project", demonstrating the Prime Minister's support of the Union.


The full article contains 549 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 June 2008 11:02 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: The railways
 
1

Conan the Librarian™,

01/06/2008 00:33:45
"The talks have been kept private in a bid to dampen public expectation, with ministers on both sides of the border balking at the vast cost of the scheme."

Open Government at its very best then.
2

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 01/06/2008 00:41:22
So it is a secret leak now, is it.

Looking for some public opinion, are we?
3

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol,

The Forthy Bridge 01/06/2008 01:00:04
Expensive, but five times more fuel efficient than flying. It frees up the classic railways for more freight - five times more fuel efficient than road haulage. Taking trucks off the roads reduces road congestion and improves the efficiency of the road network.

Whilst high speed rail uses a lot of energy, it can be generated from hydro, tidal and other sustainable sources.

Continued reliance on aviation will see us in a pickle as rising fuel costs (and diminishing oil supply) will make flying too expensive for ordinary mortals and eventually our airports will be a thing of the past.

We'll have more expensive food, fewer tourists, less commerce and employment if we don't invest in fuel efficient and sustainable methods of travel to Europe.

Wait until after peak oil and the panic and rush to build such rail links all over the world will see construction costs soar. Sooner is far better than later!
4

Guga II,

Rockall 01/06/2008 01:14:50
"industry sources suggest Scottish ministers would not only have to pay for the line in Scotland, but would also have to meet a substantial part of the costs in the north of England".

Here we go again, Westminster expecting Scotland to subsidise them even more. We already subsidise London, but now its the north of England.
5

artemisclyde,

01/06/2008 01:16:14
this newspaper often likes to tell us about dangerous rifts between westminster and holyrood. about conflict and brinkmanship.

surely this is an example of how two governments in two countries can actually do something positive?
6

,

01/06/2008 01:31:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

dtaj wmt gaga,

01/06/2008 01:50:05
MPs are squealing already about the cost of fuel.

http://tinyurl.com/6hu2pk

MPs receive 40p per mile for the first 10,000 miles by car and 25p per mile thereafter. The rate used to be 72p, but they can claim 350 miles a month — £1,680 a year — without receipts.



Last year Janet Anderson, a Labour MP, caused a furore over her motoring expenses. She claimed £13,851 for driving to and around her Lancashire constituency, equivalent to driving twice round the world.
8

Conan the Librarian™,

01/06/2008 02:00:41
10
Next stop Belgium and its lovely beer?
9

tomi,

01/06/2008 02:33:00
Such a project sounds very expensive, but is it "in real terms (adjusted for inflation)" than building the origional railways was in the 1800's?
High speed to London would be good, but Scotland also needs through services to the continent.
10

Jimmy the Pie,

01/06/2008 03:39:33
"On the positive side, Gordon Brown is under pressure from Labour MPs and MSPs who say that a north-south high-speed line could become a "grand project", demonstrating the Prime Minister's support of the Union."

Aye that will make a difference Comrade Broon.

Was that the reason you were wanting more oilfields on stream to pay for this??

11

,

01/06/2008 04:38:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 01/06/2008 05:53:39
I'll support this idea as long as Salmond is on the first train out of Scotland.
13

JT,

01/06/2008 05:54:09
When the current trains start running on time are clean and cheap (not just on the 1st Wed morning in April last year) then people will start using them, until then people will use planes. I couldnt visit my family without for a weekend without domestic flights my other option is to take a week off and use two days to travel.
14

Mist001,

Marseille 01/06/2008 06:07:29
Non starter. Too expensive for starters. You can fly from Edinburgh to Marseille for 30 euros, it costs £150 per person to get here by train from Edinburgh.

I know, because we did it and that was even booking a month in advance!

Michael.
15

Mallory,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 06:47:41
Now if Gordon Brown and Nu Labour hadn't messed up the economy over the past 10 years, we could have built two such links with the £50billion plus handed out to protect gambling bankers from the consequences of their reckless actions.
16

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 01/06/2008 06:47:55
Why would we need an East Coast Line and a West Coast one?

If there was high speed rail connectivity between Edinbugh and Glasgow (one of the transport priorities in Scotland) an East Coast line would still get you from London to Glasgow in around 3 hours.

Seems a better solution than duplicating on the West Coast - cheaper to build on flatter topography.

Anyway it sure as hell beats having to stump up for railways in the north of England. Are big infrastructure projects only good if they benefit the SE of England? Can someone just run past me the 'union benefit' in that scenario?

17

mr angry,

ayrshire 01/06/2008 06:48:09
18# the whole point in the very near future you will not be flying for 30 Euro's, the low cost airlines will be bust or charging an arm and a leg. Hence the need to get this started now , otherwise ordinary people will not be able to get to Europe.
18

cc13,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 07:01:20
"Scottish ministers would not only have to pay for the line in Scotland, but would also have to meet a substantial part of the costs in the north of England"

Is this the Union Dividend?
19

Aussielassie,

SYDNEY 01/06/2008 07:20:10
Go for it and it will be worth every billion spent!
20

Mikey,

01/06/2008 07:24:39
How do the folk in the north of England feel about their government casting them adrift?
21

gus1940,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 07:43:07
The penultimate paragraph fills me with disgust.
22

Ron Thomson,

spain 01/06/2008 07:49:12
It seems to be anything to spend money on a load of crap, it seems to be hard enough to keep the trains on the tracks at low speeds, now at 220 MPH they will be flying off all over the place, now do we need a high speed link between Scotland and England, i think not, now pricing who would benefit from it certainly not Scotland this would be an advantage to England and not all of England, Manchester going South, so Scotland and the North of England would have to shell out again, for a fast link to London which they would probably never use, to me this sounds like another Millennium White Elephant as most things that come out of the Government.
Give us a break.
23

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 01/06/2008 07:53:26
A better priority for the Scottish Government would be to look at our Overall Transport Policy.

Why do you need to have seperate International Airports in Glasgow and Edinburgh?

A better solution would be to have 1 International Airport between the 2 Cities connected by a Highspeed Rail Link (Think Schipol Airport).

If we had a single Major International Airport we would be able to attract more International Airlines to fly to Scotland.

Imagine a Daily service between Scotland and Tokyo.
How many Japanese golfers would be attracted to come and play in Scotland?

You could also extend the Highspeed Rail from the Airport up the East Coast of Scotland to Aberdeen.

A much better use of Scotlands Money than paying for a line to Leeds.
24

McGinty,

01/06/2008 07:56:14
'U.K ministers?'...Should be 'little incentive for Welsh, Northern Irish, Southern English ministers to build a line north of the heavily populated Manchester-Leeds corridor.'
25

Linda,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 07:56:32
Gordon Brown demonstrates support for the Union while Scotland subsidises line in North of England. Another Union dividend.
26

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 01/06/2008 08:12:28
The track bed is already in place!

Take over the northbound carriage way of the motorway net work and convert it to high speed train usage.

With rising fuel costs road traffic will anyway soon reduce to fit on the remaining by then two-way carriage road.

This will cut the cost and time of the project in half.
27

terry osser,

morden 01/06/2008 08:26:57
i do not want £30 billion spent on rail link. i do not want to visit scotland and if i did there are already reasonably fast trains from london although very expensive. would be nice to have reliable fast services in london though. crap at present
28

Loki - The Scourge of the Schemies,

EH1 01/06/2008 09:02:37
No.21 Mr Angry - otherwise ordinary people will not be able to get to Europe.

You make a powerful case for scrapping any hare-brained notion of more high-speed rail links that will connect 'ordinary people' with Continental Europe.
29

Joe90,

Erehwon 01/06/2008 09:03:59
#27 KampungHighlander - This makes absolute sense and I have been advocating a single international airport for central Scotland for years. Such an airport located in the Harthill area would serve not only Glasgow and Edinburgh, but Stirling, Perth and Falkirk and, as you say, a spur line up the east coast would connect Dundee and Aberdeen.
#31 t.osser - Typical SE rant. London, London, London, London, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. Scotophobia!! Don't want to visit Scotland - your loss!
30

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 09:05:50
IF, as reported, this proposal came from the incumbent Scottish Government at Holyrood then I suspect the U.K. Government only agreed to this meeting for a number of good reasons, including the main one:
the prospect of a further upsurge in Nationalism?

As for actually building a new high-speed rail line?
The Channel Tunnnel was built for London and the South-East of England.

Scotland (and points North of the Watford Gap) was promised a direct link into the Channel Tunnel line but previous U.K. governments have still failed to provide a fast connection?

It has taken over 10 years for the West Coast Line to be upgraded and it is still incomplete! Major closures are still to take place over the next several months on various lengths of the line between Glasgow and London!
31

Far East Arab,

Japan 01/06/2008 09:11:59
"Imagine a Daily service between Scotland and Tokyo.
How many Japanese golfers would be attracted to come and play in Scotland?"

Dunno about the golfers, but it'd certainly get me home quicker!!!

Thats the thing I've noticed about Britain since moving to live in Japan. The Japanese train system is quality, imagine trains that actually run on time?!?! What seems to happen here is they evaluate and identify the problem, come up with the solution and then implement it properly. What happens in Britain is the evaluate and identify the problem, come up with the correct solution, then cut corners to save money. Result: Crappy everything that breaks down after a couple of years.

I think it'd be beneficial to have a Bullet train link from Scotland to london, that would effectively link Edinburgh with Paris and Brussels. Travelling by Bullet train is a nice relaxing affair, no airport stress, no crushed into tiny seats, just sit back, relax and gaze out the window at the world flying by
32

Mcsnagpile,

01/06/2008 09:15:26
The money would be better spent building a concrete, soundproof wall along the English border. All trains to be terminated at Berwick upon Tweed and Carlisle. We will look after our sheep and you can look after yours. Linking on to a black hole vortex in London is certainly not an economic advantage. The re-establishment of the stagecoach with a team of Clydesdale horses is more like it, fuelled by good Scottish oats
33

The Strategist,

01/06/2008 09:27:45
It will never happen because Labour and the City having completely destroyed the UK economy means we can never afford it.
34

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 01/06/2008 09:28:26
After 11 years of taxing us to the hilt, supposedly on environmental grounds, telling us we should use our cars less and use public transport, now is the time for politicians to put their money where their mouths are. Don't hold your breath though
35

Ryan Findlay,

North Sea 01/06/2008 09:28:45
#31 Terry

With much respect to your position and opinion about not wanting the investment in infrastructure north of the border, you need to appreciate the reason as to why many Scots want the union to be broken up. There is as of yet no motorway link between the two main Scottish cities of Edinburgh and Glasgow. Our connections to the rest of the country are terrible and if you have ever driven from Newcastle to Edinburgh you would agree. Considering the financial input Scotland and her resources have contributed to the UK economy over the past century. Therefore I think a high speed rail network connecting Scotland to mainland Europe is not a lot to ask for.

#30 Rulesbutnotrulers

I agree. It would be a considerable amount cheaper to use the existing motorway network as an aption for a route. However, instead of taking a carriageway on the northbound out of action, would it not be - albeit a little more expensive - slightly better if an elevated trackway was built to carry the railway over the central reservation?



In addition I think that in order to keep ahead of the game in relation to our railways, the new MAGLEV system should be utilised - again a little more expensive. However the extra costs would be recouped from the running of the actual network. Edinburgh to London in 1:30 min. Many people in would use it instead of flying or driving, and the power could be generated from sustainable resources and transferred along the line, thus acting as a back up for the National Grid.
36

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 01/06/2008 09:38:06
Seems like a logical step forward, most domestic flights from Edinburgh/Glasgow are only taken because they are quicker than using the train. Domestic flights are a most unpleasant experience, nearly always late, and their constant rounds of 'hurry up and wait', liberally mixed with belts on belts off, shoes on shoes off, and other pre-flight 'entertainments', make me welcome an alternative.
37

CRAGman,

01/06/2008 09:42:19
# 26 - do you really live in Spain? If you do, open your eyes or travel around the country a bit. High speed railways everywhere.

#30 - a point well made. Taking over the motorways is probably the best idea since they go in pretty much the right directions and will soon to all intents and purposes be redundant anyway.
38

cabrach loon,

inverness 01/06/2008 09:43:58
Well well - impressive and aeons overdue BUT at present it takes only 4.5 hours from Edinburgh to London BUT!!! more than 3 hours to go less than half the distance from Edinburgh to Inverness - so please how about a twin track line from Perth to Inverness pdq and to at least immediately re-establish also the link to Inverness through Forres to create a pseudo dual section from Aviemore to Inverness. Beeching was a fool and knew nothing about the need for repairs, extra capacity through links, accidents, and that it is hard for trunks to survive without branches!
39

CRAGman,

01/06/2008 09:44:15
... oh, and, alongside faster inter-city rail links, we need a complementary and comprehensive rail network in and around the nation's main cities.
40

Iain's,

Barcelona 01/06/2008 09:48:12
Well, we have now got a high speed train link between Madrid and Barcelona. I suppose that more backward countries like the UK will take at least another 20 years to get round to it.

There are complaints about the lack of seats at certain times.

But, the number of flights between the two cities has been cut. So the green lobby has been right about the drop in air travel.

So far, everyone is happy, and you can get parked at the airport!


41

Scott_B,

01/06/2008 09:51:42
Ministers both sides of the border see a way to demand / squander more tax money. More money for them to act kingly with, and some big boy's toys to play with into the bargain.

There's barely a rail service in this country worth the name, and yet these fools want to throw even more money at one great uber-project of questionable utility.


Using the current budget, GET THE CURRENT SERVICES WORKING. From the budget maybe take one trip to Japan - rural Japan - and see the sort of services that are possible. Reasonable prices, utter punctuality, clean, frequent, sufficient space, railways care about the impact of their service upon their customers.

Put that in place here, then you might have proven you are sufficiently reliable to consider further projects. Right now it looks like a glory project for the ministers involved, and more money to spin off to their buddies in industry.
42

Upbeat,

01/06/2008 09:53:50
The best thing that can be said of this story is that it reveals that politicians north and south of the border have actually been talking to each other.

The other thing is that on past expereince we all know that it will be years before any proposals are outlined: years more before a route is agreed; years more before the compulsory purchase and legal aspects are resolved; years more before the plan is costed. materials are assembled an the first "turf" is cut. This is the British way.

The greatest 'plus' will be that by this time the rest of Europe will be crisscrossed with completed lines , and contractors with decades of experience building these HST lines will have so much know how and capability that finding a consortium to build the Spine line will be straightforward. Germans, Swiss Italian and French contractors with this "know how" will be hunting for work continuity by then !
43

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 01/06/2008 09:56:34
Here we go with the first summer silly season story. Readers might remember that last year it was a £30billion tunnel linking the Isle of Lewis to the mainland.

We get this nonsense every year: couldn't the various governments better spend their time fixing our exisiting railway and stop trying to run before they have even learned to walk?
44

paul o,

Wodonga 01/06/2008 10:08:26
#7,artemisclyde; about conflict and brinkmanship:
If you think you have difficulty engaging the Westminster and Holyrood governments in meaningful negotiations that will advance the 'good of the nation' you should consider the suffocating politics of Australians with a Federal Government, 7 State and Teritory Governments and thousande of Local Governments that, on principle, NEVER AGREE ON ANYTHING.
This is why Australia, a nation of only 22 million people that covers more ground than the the UK and Europe combined, still has 5 different railway gauges, 7 different road transport regulations and thousands of different Local Government ByLaws.
By 21st Century Standards, we're Fu**ed!
PS: To date we still don't have a railway pasenger link between Sydney and Melbourne that can travel at 100 mph, yet alone anything approaching 200 mph!
45

Joe,

Livingston 01/06/2008 10:16:44
#20...Any idea of a high speed line leaving Glasgow and heading South through Edinburgh would immediately get kicked into touch.
46

lachlan,

01/06/2008 10:18:05
'industry sources suggest Scottish ministers would not only have to pay for the line in Scotland, but would also have to meet a substantial part of the costs in the north of England, as there is little incentive for UK ministers to build a line north of the heavily populated Manchester-Leeds corridor.'
gives scotland it oil money and we'll build our own line to paris.
47

Grant,

01/06/2008 10:19:17
I know, how about improving Scotland's own railway network first? High Speed trains between Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Inverness? Dualling the A9 to Inverness. etc

I'm not interested in quicker links to London - rebuilding Hadrian's Wall and concrete reinforcement would suit me far better. How about improving our communications links with Europe - by air, by ferry?
48

Pattester,

Galashiels 01/06/2008 10:26:42
What are they waiting for this is the ideal opportunity to reopen the entire line through the Scottish Borders instead of just to Galashiels and when it is not being used by the bullet trains then we can put it to good use. It would be for the good of the Borders by putting other trains on it and this would then kill two birds with one stone and save money. Why bother with the West and East coast lines as they are knackered and would have to be totally replaced the East coast line runs over old mine shafts in various location which could collapse at any time or disappear into the sea along the eroding coast that we are always being told about. The West coast line does not go directly to the capital as it heads for Glasgow and then bears for Edinburgh from Carstairs all of this would add time to the journey when it could go straight through the Scottish Borders and cut down on the time for the journeys.
49

ddmc,

01/06/2008 10:44:45
foulkes me ! they've been talking about a high speed line for about 30 years now
50

lush,

01/06/2008 10:45:12
Just build the line and stop talking about it!!! The problem with the UK is we talk about this stuff but never actually do it, mainly because we are bogged down by bureaucratic ministers and idiotic environmentalists. We should take a leaf out of China's book or the UAE's approach and actually build projects rather than chat about them!
51

camster,

E Kilbride 01/06/2008 11:07:15
Lush 56, one of the best comments I have read on the boards for a long time.
52

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 01/06/2008 11:08:38
#56 Who's going to pay for it? I don't want to see tax payer money lavished on some fancy new bullet train route which is then handed over to private operators for them to make another handsome killing ripping off the rest of us.

And don't even mention building it with PFI.
53

ddmc,

01/06/2008 11:10:56
get the scottish executive to project manage it, then we can have a 'wurld class' train line, LOL

Why no comments on the lockerbie story hootsmon ?
54

David MacVicar,

web 01/06/2008 11:19:03
People have VERY short memories.

It looks like you have all forgotten the details of the CHUNNEL Project launched under thatcher and paid by all UK tax payers, currently benefiting the SE of England.

From Glasgow, Edinburgh in Scotland and the Major Cities in the North of England were all supposed to get, little by little: DIRECT connections to Europe, no changes at London as part of Crossrail.

What happened?

I do so hope that the Scottish government will push that Scottish and N England tax payers have ALREADY paid for a high speed rail network that the people in the South East of England are enjoying the fruits of.

I am not saying this in a nationalist context. This was what was promised to the people of the UK. Broken promises? This is the high speed champion of broken promises.

55

Alasdair,

01/06/2008 11:22:07
Building a line on he East Coast between Edinburgh and London would be easier and cheaper, but any such development will inevitably get built on the West Coast, as I suspect the draw of building it through Manchester will be a much stronger draw than Newcastle.
56

Edinburger,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 11:24:00
If anyone has used the TGV in France they will understand that this would bring about a step change in shorthaul travel for the UK.

It would help counter the corrosive shift to the south-east of jobs, money and influence by providing people with a reliable and fast means of moving around the country.

Why spend billions expanding Londons airports to cope with demand when a whole raft of domestic flights could be superseded by high speed rail?
57

eric,

lothian 01/06/2008 11:26:38
London ,BIR,MAN,GLA,through major cities makes sense.it will never happen.
58

Charles MN,

01/06/2008 11:28:17
Lets just run the numbers. £30Bn at 5% interest rates is £1.5Bn a year. If all the current air passengers switch to rail that would give us about 4 million passengers a year. So we would have to charge £375 per journey just to pay the interest. As usual rail travel doesn't add up.
59

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 01/06/2008 11:33:50
#64 You are forgetting that existing rail customers would use it on top of air passengers on top of new customers attracted into rail travel for the first time. Flat fares are never charged so some would go first class, some economy class. Your maths is too simple. The pricing issue is always complex.
60

David MacVicar,

web 01/06/2008 11:38:00
64 Charles MN,

In the last years SNCF turned a profit with reasonable fares.

A new link from France to Barcelona is currently being built. Germany has the ICE service.

We have projects on ice ;)

I take it from for your 'can't do' attitude that you are a modern day unionist, something totally removed from the pioneering unionists of the 18 - 20C?
61

Edinburger,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 11:39:38
# 64 - only 4 million passenger journeys per year?

GNER alone carried around 14 million passengers last year. As well as from air, high speed rail would take people from the roads.

Your numbers don't add up.
62

Upbeat,

01/06/2008 12:14:10
#60 What an amazing comment.

If you don't understand that without the channel tunnel link there is no HST link with Europe you had better sit down and ponder a while longer ?

This link was about connecting the UK into the European High speed rail network.It is pure accident of history that the Romans decided that London was a good place for a Capital city...on the main route north to the rest of their Brittanic empire. !The terminal for the Channel rail link has nothing to do with preferential treatmant for London or the South east,that is why it is on the north side of teh city now. As with the tram project in Edinburgh the critical parts of any network must be built properly to support the rest of any future development.

Or can you lift yourself up by your own bootlaces ?
63

Charles MN,

01/06/2008 12:33:09
#67 Not from Scotland they didn't. In 2004/5 ( the first figures I can get my hands on ) 1,069,000 passengers traveled fron Scotland to London by Rail. Another 3 million or so went by air. In total about 5 million people traveled from Scotland to all points in England by rail.

You can fly easyjet to London for less than £80 return so it is unlikely that people will pay hundreds of pounds to travel by rail.
64

Navvy,

01/06/2008 12:36:11
#27 Kampung Boy, #31

At last some one else on the right track
One Scotland International airport with HST to Glasgow Edinburgh and to Channel Tunnel

Contrary to some of the weirdo post thousands of people want and need to travel to England and tens of thousands livlihoods depend on good communications with England. The ostrich fold will learn one day that no country is truely independent these days, we are all interlinked. We claim RBS as ourown but most of its busines is out of Scotland

Trains are the better way to travel - to recoin an old slogan ( a gaelic derived word) let teh rain take the strain
65

Abel Magwitch,

01/06/2008 12:38:56
Looking ahead to the future, say 20 years. Air travel will have priced itself out of the market and train travel will have become barely viable for the average citizen. With the shift of traffic from air to rail, the security checks for rail travel will be beefed up for all the usual reasons. Expect a long line-up before you are cleared for your 1000 Euro trip to London.
66

David MacVicar,

web 01/06/2008 12:59:47
Upbeat
"If you don't understand that without the channel tunnel link there is no HST link"

Please do not put words in my mouth. Where did I say we did not need the Chunnel to connect to Europe? Try reading my post again.

I said Cities in the North UK were PROMISED high speed Direct access (no need to change trains in London). We were at minimum promised the links decades ago as part of a full National rail project. You can argue the pros and cons but that is what we paid towards. So far we Have a hight speed rail link in the South East ONLY. Now we are taking about a new line between London and Scotland.

It is common sense and honest that previous agreed commitments from Westminster are part of this process.
Anything less is saying that taxpayers in the North are expected to finance the South and London(the biggest state funded area in the UK mainland) all the time and at their own disadvantage.
67

Charles MN,

01/06/2008 13:25:03
#67
GNER's total passenger revenue in 2006 was less than £500M. It handed back it's franchise because it couldn't make a profit on that. It is obvious that this line will never come close to paying its way and will just add to the £4Bn a year subsidy that the railways get.

Rod Eddingtons report to the Goverment specifically warned against projects like this as they chew up enormous amounts of cash for limited benefit.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/162259/187604/206711/executivesummary
68

Upbeat,

01/06/2008 13:30:54
72 David.

You are still being disengenuous.

The overwhelming proportion of wealth creation in the British economy is based in the south east of England. The tax contribution of the overwhelming percentage of the UK population to the exchequer is from those located in the south east. The first section of the HST track that had to be completed was the section that linked the UK with Europe. The rest will follow...maybe not as quick as we might like.... but then this is Britain, and nothing important inn infrastructure terms ever happens swiftly here.

To turn around as you are attempting and infer that some " slight" has been directed at the people of the North and Scotland because the rail link has not yet been extended north , while you consider that your tax money has subsidised those living in the south east, and you derive no benefit from the section of HST infrastructure that is now complete, is nit picking.

We know from other posts you have made on these comment boards over the months, that you are keen to find any fault you can with the way Britain is shaped and where Government policy is prioritised to address the greatest and most urgent requirements due to population density .

This is no different from complaining and " jumping up and down," in rage the fact that all the motoroway infrastructure in Scotland , paid for by us all, stops at least some 100 miles from the front doors of so many of us.

What we need is enthusiastic support for any HST extension project to the north of London , not mealy mouthed complaints that it has not happened yet: Forward, not backward, thinking. But it suits too many here in Scotland to see only the negatives of the present situation at every opportunity ...doesn't it ?
69

Publius,

London 01/06/2008 13:49:19
"industry sources suggest Scottish ministers would not only have to pay for the line in Scotland, but would also have to meet a substantial part of the costs in the north of England, as there is little incentive for UK ministers to build a line north of the heavily populated Manchester-Leeds corridor."

This rings true. The M6 between Carlisle and Gretna was delayed for years while the (English) Highways Agency tried to persuade the Scottish Office - and later the Scottish Executive - to pay for it or, at least, make a contribution. Eventually the Highways Agency agreed to fund the whole thing.
70

Edward,

01/06/2008 13:49:46
Allthough a laudable idea, why does the line stop at London? why not go straight to the channel tunnel?
Actually I smell something here, which is more akinto Labour spin!
So called 'secret' talks, why are they secret?
suspect that this is more meant to look as if Westminster is being cooperative. Its a pity that elsewhere its reported that Alistair Darling has stated that there is no way that Scotland would get the £ 400 million, if the Scottish government go ahead with their LIT plans
71

Publius,

London 01/06/2008 13:52:14
#60 David McVicar
Don't blame Thatcher for the costs of the Chunnel. Thatcher did not give the Chunnel company any public money. That was why the high speed line from Folkestone to London wasn't started for years. Only after Thatcher had gone did the UK government agree to fund the Folkestone-London line. Thatche practised what she preached.
72

Ted & Janet,

Belwood 01/06/2008 13:53:19
It certainly would be good to have more direct Air Links from North America ie Canada to both Edinburgh and Glasgow other than not so good "Charter Airlines" that only run in summer, as of right now Air Canada uses that Hell hole of Heathrow as a terminus for there flights and uses BMI to ferry passengers to Scotland, Heathrow is one terrible place, especially if one needs a Wheelchair assistance as my wife does, we would come home to visit relatives more often if there where better connections instead of having to go to Holland and fly back to Scotland.
73

Publius,

London 01/06/2008 13:56:04
#48 Mikko

You may be right ... but only may be. The economics of travel are changing. Air costs are rising.
74

Publius,

London 01/06/2008 14:02:15
#77 Edward

Edward you're slipping! HSTs from Scotland could either terminate at St Pancras or carry on through the tunnel...

More to the point, why has the SNP changed its policy? I remember attending an SNP meeting in Dundee in the 1970s. The SNP speaker said that his party's policy was (metaphorically) to dig a ditch between Scotland and England and push England further away. The SNP should explain why they have their changed their minds.
75

Neil,

Glasgow 01/06/2008 14:03:00
£30 billion is a lot of money.

Actually if we could get costings of building projects in Britain down to a reasonable amount such projects might be feasible. The real way to do a bullet train, particularly over this distance, is in vacuum filled tunnels. This means the energy used is minor (no friction with air) & to speeds are considerably FASTER than aircraft can manage (the only limitation being speed of acceleration). If the Norwegians have cut massive tunnels at about £7 M per km in much more difficult conditions then the maximum for a 2 tube tunnel to London should be £11 billion. Still a lot but for something much more useful than the white elephant proposed.
76

The Busman,

Edinburgh 01/06/2008 14:47:39
The main congestion in the railway system is south of Doncaster on the ECML and around Manchester on the WCML. A strong case can be made for more capacity from London to the North (not necessarily high-speed) and Scotland would benefit from the faster journey times. The problem is that the marginal *cost* of building from the North to Scotland is far greater than the the marginal *benefit* of doing so, and no-one is really prepared to admit to this.

Furthermore, Scotland does not need high-speed rail to be connected to the Continent. A high-speed train from Edinburgh to Paris would still take close to six hours - and the distance can still be flown in less than two hours. Direct air links are both faster and avoid a massive capital cost that *someone* will have to pay for. Who?
77

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 01/06/2008 14:49:49
I read awhile back when Dublin was planning its city centre to airport shuttle train that the Irish builders wanted £6billion to set it up and said it would take five or six years. Apparently the Spaniards came along and said they could do it for just £400 million (one twelth the cost) in two years!

Let Spain build our rail links and maybe we will start going places.
78

,

01/06/2008 15:13:11
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79

John Jefkins MBE,

Croydon 01/06/2008 15:15:55
The Good News is that Lib Dem research has shown that if you can build a 200mph route to just past Manchester (ie Preston) you only have to average around current speeds of 130mph to get the London-Glasgow/Edinburgh time under 3hrs.

Not much work is actually needed north of Preston to do that. A new 150mph Glasgow-Edinburgh southerly route could incorporate a faster Carstairs triangle - killing 3 birds with the same stone. The only other real new track would be a 5 mile tunnel from Kendle towards Penrith to speed up that section.

A HS2 London-Birmingham airport-Manchester airport-Preston route with Kendle track improvements and a new southerly Glasgow-Edinburgh route would suffice to take 90% of the air market - enough to fund its £15 billion cost.

The main route to Edinburgh would thus skirt Manchester.

Whilst an 'HS3' spur from Birmingham-E Midlands to an upgraded E. Coast line would be desirable, little improvement would be needed north of Newcastle.

Costs could thus be kept to levels easily funded by the 1 billion/yr extra tax income from either new air taxes or current road taxes. Private enterprise would be anyway attracted to the strong business case.

John Jefkins
80

TAF,

USA 01/06/2008 15:26:08
When will these fools realize that 220 mph is not "high speed". That is a speed attainable by some automobiles!

If you want a rail link that will supplant the use of aircraft (which is the obvious goal), you need 300 mph or better. Which is fully doable. The TGV has demonstrated it.

A real fast link from London to Scotland would be great for those of us who like to visit Scotland for business and pleasure (and like the cheaper flights to London...transoceanic airline travel isn't going to go away as there are no practical alternatives, although it will get more expensive).

Just be careful what you wish for; you'll have the Japanese buying up your country so they can come play golf (look at Hawaii).


81

Tricky1984,

Chelmsford 01/06/2008 15:26:19
Look at www.500kmh.com or google/wikipedia UK ultraspeed.

The environmental and economic argument is laid out in full!

The high speed Maglev trains run at 500km/ph or 300mph linking all the major cities of Scotland and England and the airports. It would split before London with one branch heading off to Heathrow airport and the other into Stratford international (contsructed but not yet open for use)for Eurostar connections. It would also have a stop in St Albans on the m25 for park facilities.

This of course would be a whole new network and would be separate from the existing HS network. Expensive at 20-30 billion but the long term environmental and economic benefit would surely be worth it!
82

subrosa,

01/06/2008 15:35:37
# 62 'Why spend billions expanding Londons airports to cope with demand when a whole raft of domestic flights could be superseded by high speed rail?'

The Westminster government of the day has to work out who its bestest buddies are because they don't want to upset them. So, is it the aviation industry or the rail industry?

This won't happen, it's just political posturing.
83

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 01/06/2008 15:47:07
This whole debate is pointless in any part of the UK. All of us reading this story know that a reliable 150mph link - let alone a 300 mph high speed link - will never happen in our lifetimes. Fact.
84

Tricky1984,

Chelmsford 01/06/2008 16:04:26
I don't see why this won't happen?

Cheap flights are on there way out, this is for sure. Further more, if we built a new network from scratch this would avoid many of the problems with the exisiting rail system which are generally down to an ageing infrastructure.

Routing the new network to stations on the outskirts of cities would also avoid problems with planning and pollution. For instance,
85

Tricky1984,

Chelmsford 01/06/2008 16:04:29
I don't see why this won't happen?

Cheap flights are on there way out, this is for sure. Further more, if we built a new network from scratch this would avoid many of the problems with the exisiting rail system which are generally down to an ageing infrastructure.

Routing the new network to stations on the outskirts of cities would also avoid problems with planning and pollution. For instance,
86

Hugo of Garven,

01/06/2008 16:22:11
It will probably take about 20 years from start to finish.

The sooner we make a serious start the better.

I may not have 20 years left and I would like to travel on it to mainland Europe.
87

yoric,

01/06/2008 16:46:39
Perhaps the Scottish Parliament could pay for the line out of the Barnett Formula funding it receives.

You will need to be quick, because Gordon Brown needing English votes to save his skin, is being advised to thin or even reconsider this payment.
88

,

01/06/2008 17:10:34
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89

David MacVicar,

web 01/06/2008 17:48:21
75 Upbeat.

A reasonable post and I (think I) can see where you are coming from. I just don't believe the UK has had much interest in the North except for what it can take out. Pretty much what Eddie George said in his own words.

You mention infrastructure and Motorways or lack of. I am sorry but there really is no excuse for the lack of of modern infrastructure in the North compared to the levels of investment that went into the South and thats decades ago. I don't have the figures but I looked at one point and there is no comparison, even taking into account pro rata.

You call this 'nitpicking' I call it whole scale neglect and a policy of centralisation. To put that policy to an extreme it would seem that its ok to get to London from the North with a horse and cart because they have the largest population concentration.

This is where I guess we fundamentally disagree the most. I believe the UK should have spent more de centralising the state. What is worse, is if you accept that Scotland is a country and region, as opposed to only a region. Scotland as a country has been putting much into the UK pro rata while getting little back, all the time being told the UK is propping up Scotland. This information is now public domain.

That is the cruel deception here. It is something that (unfortunately) can only now be resolved by running our own affairs. Until then we need to work together but lets not forget: promises, projects, planning, pricing and payments.

All I was saying in my first post is that Scotland must not negotiate with the UK state from ground zero. The UK already has some obligations to fullfill here, even though Scotland needs to play its fair part.

Most posters earlier seemed to have completely forgotten that we have already paid 'in part' for such a project and should not, no_way pay twice, and neither should the North of England.
90

Neil,

Glasgow 01/06/2008 17:55:40
86 assures us that "Lib Dem research has shown" ... "£15 billion" ...."Costs could thus be kept to levels easily funded by the 1 billion/yr extra tax income from either new air taxes or current road taxes"

Er well good to know you lot have firm quotes at half the price however even at that level your figure of £1 billion a year would only pay the interest on that sum leaving the actual capital to come from?

Also some incongruity in saying that it will be prectical to raise more road & air taxes to "pay" for a project said to be going to reduce road & air travellers.

This from the same lot of numpties who assure us that they can provide 100% of our continuous need for electricty from intemittent windmillery.
91

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 01/06/2008 18:02:23
I think that this is a great idea provided that First Minister Salmond agrees to be on the first train out and promises never to come back. In fact, I'll even pay his fare - first class.
92

backwater,

01/06/2008 18:06:08
Jwil, 96

If you're suggesting that Scotland is a backwater, and that UK economic investment is made where the vast majority of the UK population can derive benefit, then I agree.
93

Hello,

here 01/06/2008 18:14:12
A MULTI-billion-pound plan to build a high-speed train link between Scotland and London is back on track following secret talks between the UK and Scottish Governments.
Sounds good.
journey times from north to south just three hours. That's a good start.
£30bn to build a line capable of handling the Eurostar trains, which could travel at speeds of up to 220mph. The Eurostar trains can't go that fast so it must be the next generation of high speed train. This is getting interesting.
Journey times between London and Paris have been cut to two hours and 15 minutes, half the time it takes to get from London to Glasgow.
That says it all. That's the current problem.
Industry sources suggest Scottish ministers would not only have to pay for the line in Scotland, but would also have to meet a substantial part of the costs in the north of England, as there is little incentive for UK ministers to build a line north of the heavily populated Manchester-Leeds corridor.
I wasn't aware that the North of England's transport needs was a devolved matter for Holyrood. Did I miss something?
#12 Did someone mention Belgian beer? Lead on.
#13 Spot on.
#23 You said it.
#27 An airport in Scotland with a rail link that can handle international traffic. You've already got an airport that fits this criteria. It's called Prestwick. (www.gpia.co.uk)
#53 Rather than dualling the A9 in its entirety wouldn't you be better making it Motorway in its entirety?
They should build a high speed rail line from Inverness to the Channel Tunnel. You can just imagine standing on Inverness station with the announcer saying "Platform 1 for the train to Madrid!" Whether or not it is built overnight or done in stages is irrelevant. The important thing is it is built. Over time it will pay for itself.
94

mike3,

Midlands 01/06/2008 18:45:00
Why is this needed? There are more urgent spending needs in England.
95

John2,

Kent 01/06/2008 18:46:14
Sort out the "in or out of the union" first - and then talk about a better rail link. Incidentally, Jwil 96, how much is raised in Scotland by those who pay for a TV Licence our of the 5.1 million populati?

Regards
96

John Jefkins MBE,

Croydon 01/06/2008 18:46:42
To reply to #99

1) The cost is kept to £15 billion by only taking the 200mph line to Preston, linking existing tracks at Carstairs to a new fast Glasgow-Edinburgh line and doing cheaper upgrade work (eg at Kendle) to get 130mph speed in-between Carstairs and Preston.

ie just do enough to get Scotland-London to 3hrs.

The main market it London-Birmingham-Manchester.

A total of 40 million journeys/yr earning £40 each gets £1.6 billion/yr - enough to pay off capital and interest within 20 years.

And there are a lot of air journey that the existing 6,000km of 200 rail across Europe have already transferred to rail that prove these sort of figures are possible. Its already been done. And our neighbours are planning to double the 6,000km by 2020!

TGV rail has a bigger budget to buy trains than British Airways has to buy planes. It earns big profits. High Speed rail is big business!

John
97

,

01/06/2008 19:00:33
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Reason:
98

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 01/06/2008 19:01:23
#105 I hope the "MBE" part of your title is a spoof otherwise do you realise what you look like?
99

,

01/06/2008 19:04:38
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100

Mist001,

Marseille 01/06/2008 19:20:22
My travel experience: August 27th 2007. 06:05 leave Waverley Station for Kings Cross, London. 06:15 stuck at Monktonhall for TWO hours.

The UK can have the fastest rail network on the planet but unless they don't sort the clowns out who operate them, then what's the point.

BTW, Paris to Marseille, over double the distance between Edinburgh and London: 3 hours.

Michael.
101

ARP,

Scotland 01/06/2008 20:42:04
86/99 Lib/Dem research is in a class of its own! Clegg claimed recently that it had demonstrated that carbon sequestration was a viable alternative to nuclear generation to fill the upcoming energy gap. Repeated requests for a sight of this research have been refused on the grounds that it was for internal use only!

If anyone has a line to the Lib/Dems please advise thm to stop calling blue skies musings 'research'.
102

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 01/06/2008 20:50:50
60

I dont see your problem with this project.
Faster better and more modern links between Scotland and Europe can only benefit Scotland.
The 30bn price tag will of course run up to 50 or 60bn by the time its finished but even then it would be worth it long term. My god you could commute to London from Edinburgh and vice versa without the airport security hassles and sleep on the way.
Be nice if it were a joint Independent Scotland England project.
103

backwater,

01/06/2008 20:55:17
112

£60,000,000

Population say 6,000,000.

So, this costs £1000 per head in Scotland.

Can you afford that?

Note, too, that high speed train travel (eg Eurostar) are increasingly coming under similar security arrangements as airports.
104

Hello,

here 01/06/2008 20:57:29
#86 North of Preston you need average speeds of 130 mph to make London to Glasgow three hours in journey time. The Pendolino trains have a top a speed of 140 mph. It should be possible then. The only way you are going to improve journey times as a whole is to put your money and political will where your mouth is. If that is done anything is possible.
105

danielrober,

01/06/2008 21:01:14
There is not one High Speed route in these isles, but three routes.

The first one to be built, will be shooting at high speed to Wales via Heathrow.

The second one will link Birmingham to Manchester and London. The line will be an extension of the Heathrow link.

The third will be Scotlands route. It can either connect to the Manchester line, risking conjestion or take the East Coast Flying Scotsman route, ricking a longer route. By taking the west coast you have to build through the Lake District, it will be a protestors dream. Additionaly there are no major communities to benefit from the work in northern england, so Scotland will on its own.

The East Coast route is the cheapest for Scotland per mile, as it could leap from new track to old, just like the first TGV's in France did. Additionally it could link the major cities of Newcastle, Leeds, Nottingham etc to London. These means support, back up and MORE MONEY.
106

danielrober,

01/06/2008 21:04:07
cont 115

An east coast route could also naturally extend to Glasgow.
107

Tricky1984,

Chelmsford 01/06/2008 21:05:22
Good to some people have taken the positive view.

I wrote to my local MP about this who is a Tory. He said that the shadow chancellor had been looking into the idea so you'll all have to go against you're Scots tendencies and vote Conservative. A government won't invest in it for at least 10years as there are other expensive projects to pay for i.e. the Olympics and Crossrail but after that it's only fair that the rest of the country outside London gets some attention. If UK ultraspeed were to be built then the advantages would be:

Economic growth due to shorter distances between uk cities and less of a need to be located in London with high costs.

A whole new bullet train network wouldn't rely on old infrastructure. It would ease pressuure on the old network and free up capacity for short haul jorneys.

Lessen the need to expand airports as no longer a need for internal flights freeing capacity.

Maglev technology is energy efficient and more environmentally friendly than conventional rail.


Distribute populations away from SE England.

Turn Glasgow-Edinburgh and Manchester-Liverpool into joint economies.

It's a great proposal and I believe the Germans are keen to create a similar network. It needs to happen eventually!
108

Tricky1984,

Chelmsford 01/06/2008 21:09:47
...also if you get to London that quickly, it doesn't take much to change at St Pancras/Stratford international stations and on to Eurostar.
109

Hello,

here 01/06/2008 21:13:44
If you can find all the money needed to bail out Northern Rock then the money can be found to build high speed rail links.
110

backwater,

01/06/2008 21:35:32
119: the Northern Rock money is a secured loan and will be returned. This would be a spend.
111

backwater,

01/06/2008 21:37:47
118: I suspect they would be integrated. Maybe the Scotland train could come to St Pancras. Change there for Paris, Brussels, Lille, etc.
112

FTH22inarow,

01/06/2008 21:40:13
They must be must be concerned about an independent Scotland
113

backwater,

01/06/2008 22:02:31
122: the majority opinion in England is that if Scots want independence then.........GOOD! The taxpayer in England can then see his money spent on important issues locally rather than subsidising ungrateful, lazy Scots.
114

Charles MN,

01/06/2008 22:04:11
#118
Why would you want to? I just did a quick check on the Eurostar site. The cheapest return from Edinburgh to Paris by train was £351 and it takes 8 hours each way. Easyjet wanted £128 for the same journey on the same days.
115

Winston,

France 01/06/2008 22:15:58
Great idea. Have a look at this super video of what the work being done on a high speed line in the east of France.
http://www.lgvrhinrhone.tv/video/video-aerienne-de-la-ligne-2007-20
116

danielrober,

01/06/2008 23:02:34
Thing i love about governments is that they take their time, giving the real private sector time. Forget the Germans or French building it. I might have a crack at it, i'll be ready in only ten years :-)

Would i be allowed to build it for a crusing speed of 200mph and be allowed to break the high speed rail record on cenrtain routes. After all we have to have some fun, no point in building a sub-record speed route is there.
117

Royster,

02/06/2008 00:01:31
It's a social enterprise. There should be one to Inverness, one to Penzance, one to Holyhead and one cross country Liverpool to Hull (at the very least).
118

celtic4,

USA 02/06/2008 00:09:00
Forgive me,please, but if Scotland has to pay for this proposed high speed rail IN Scotland, then substantially subsidize England for Northern England, who pays the most? Scotland. That's who. And why? Why not divide it equally at least?
And what of how MUCH it would cost to ride a high tech train like that? 220 mph? omg. I will stick to air travel. Easyjet sounds good to me. Sorry. I can't see it. And sticking Scotland with paying for 3/4 of it won't wash.
119

Tarheel Scot,

USA 02/06/2008 00:32:08
#117 ("Maglev technology is energy efficient and more environmentally friendly than conventional rail.") and others:

Siemens, Munich, the Free State of Bavaria and the DB have just scrapped the proposed Munich airport Mag Lev line. If this crowd cannot make it work -- who can?
120

truthsleuth,

02/06/2008 01:16:01
17 JT

I travel up to Scotland to visit for a day quite frequently by train and have been able to do so since 1973.
A round trip of 500+ miles leaving at 8Am and returning at 8pm on a Saturday.
Cost when first started was £5 return it is now £24
Fares have gone up 5 times wages 8 times.

PS Had difficulty getting the cheap fare once so tried to book on a Cheap flight. Rail quoted £40 (take as many bags as I liked) air was £60 return.



121

truthsleuth,

02/06/2008 01:26:00
#10 Col. Blimp­IV*,

3 hrs to LOndon 3hrs Back

#26 Ron Thomson,spain

I should take a copy of your response and use it on your roses.
The Spanish (live in Spain do you) are spending £Billions on High Speed railways.
Barcelona-S France
Barcelona - Madrid
Madrid to southern Spain
Madrid to Portugal
They obviously know a thing or two about crap.





122

PointOf View,

Edinburgh/Falkirk 02/06/2008 01:32:50
21 Mr Angry,

21 Mr Angry,

You MUST be having a joke!! The ordinary people can't afford to get to their work due to current fuel pricing (tax tax tax) let alone Europe.

Anyway, when has such adventures, paid by hard working people, EVER really been of financial advantaged to the ordinary hard working person. The only real advantage I can see is it would get Maggie Broon back south quicker after a visit to Scotland
123

truthsleuth,

02/06/2008 01:56:25


'Maglev technology is energy efficient and more environmentally friendly than conventional rail.'

Totally incorrect
Construction would be far far more expensive and intrusive - monorail extravagances.
No where near as flexible as conventional rail and of course direct links to existing network possible
ie London to Inverness achievable with sections beyond Edinburgh using improved conventional rail.
Safety issues cannot easily be resolved - weather problems access to elevated monrail

Conventional rail has been shown capable of speeds not far short of mag lev.

Mag Lev like Hovercraft are problems seeking a solution ( I have not got this statement wrong) They sound fantastic and they are technologically fabulous bu then so was Concorde.


Distribute populations away from SE England.

Turn Glasgow-Edinburgh and Manchester-Liverpool into joint economies.

It's a great proposal and I believe the Germans are keen to create a similar network. It needs to happen eventually!
124

truthsleuth,

02/06/2008 01:58:33

'Maglev technology is energy efficient and more environmentally friendly than conventional rail.'

Totally incorrect
Construction would be far far more expensive and intrusive - monorail extravagances.
No where near as flexible as conventional rail and of course direct links to existing network possible
ie London to Inverness achievable with sections beyond Edinburgh using improved conventional rail.
Safety issues cannot easily be resolved - weather problems access to elevated monrail

Conventional rail has been shown capable of speeds not far short of mag lev.

Mag Lev like Hovercraft are problems seeking a solution ( I have not got this statement wrong) They sound fantastic and they are technologically fabulous bu then so was Concorde.





125

Scottish/American,

USA 02/06/2008 06:56:57
You know, that would be a great idea. As we move on in time, so is "time."

Everything nowadays has gotta be "right now." with all of this technology.
It's at the store. It's at the Mall. It's drive thru banks...Drive thru fast food.
Why not have a Bullet Train.

It works just great in Shangai, China...
Check out this link for the Maglev Bullet Train! It's a wow!!!

264 miles an hour!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LD_R2M6c8A





126

John Jefkins,

Croydon 02/06/2008 09:24:16
I agree with comments on maglev. Conventional High Speed rail achieves 220mph commercially (eg Paris-Strasbourg), there's 6,000km of it in Europe alone, and it gets into city centres using existing tracks.

My Lib Dem research was just drawn from industry experts - eg http://www.greengauge21.net/downloads.html, CAA websites for the air stats and typical transfer rates achieved across Spain,Italy,Germany and France from air to rail each time a new line opened. Paris-Brussels was 100% transfer when the airlines stopped flying and sold train tickets instead. Expect the same for London-Manchester with a 200mph line.

North of Preston, 130mph AVERAGE would be enough to get under 3hrs - ie straighter track near Kendle, a southern Glasgow-Edinburgh fast link near Carstairs but less need for a new Preston-Glasgow/Edinburgh line.

Hence £15 billion for just one route via Birmingham and Manchester to both Glasgow and Edinburgh rather than £30 billion for all of Arup's network.

£40 profit for 40 million passengers gets 1.6billion a year - enough to pay costs back in 20 years.
127

danielrober,

02/06/2008 10:44:12
# 137

I agree with the length of track north of Preston, been rated at about 130mph, it would be enougth. It would be a general benefit for our islands infastructure opening up the Lakes and South West Scotland. A high speed link for Glasgow-Edinburgh is a longterm desire, which could also be meet by 130mph tack. It would also suit Bistol, Southampton, York, Inverness, Aberdeen etc, etc.

Edinburgh to London though it is different. The East Coast is less densly populated than the west, but that is only as far north as Manchester, hence the Beeching problem - North of Manchester. The North of Manchester problem has held back Upper Britain national infrastructure since the early 70's. Both road and rial so any choice will be difficult.

Yet linking Glasgow-Edinburgh-Newcastle-Leeds-Nottingham would be an economically viable route. These are five cities who have missed out on many transport developments these past 30 years.

Nothing wrong with Scotland having allies and friends.
128

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 03/06/2008 16:03:47
16

And youre under it.
129

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 03/06/2008 16:05:54
113

Our taxes will be taken off us no matter what the Government spends it on. We are already paying the money so lets support something its worth paying it on.
130

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 03/06/2008 17:48:09
We dont need trains to england nor roads nor aircraft the lot should be perminantly closed, let no one into Scotland and no one out of it we dont need trains they should be scrapped more dirty deisel lorries we want
and no more aircraft international or otherwise.
Im all for a scottish iron curtain
131

Tricky1984,

Chelmsford 03/06/2008 18:44:53
no.135

If you read the feasability study on the website it says that Maglev technology uses 50% less energy than conventional rail. I accept this maybe an exageration but something to be looked into?

Because trains levitate they also sustain less impact and need less maintainance.

The Germans probably abandoned it because Germany is a whole lot bigger than they UK and the cost of building the network would be far greater.

To any of the Scots displaying an insular attitude, fact is business people want to be able to get to London and will be reluctant to locate business too far away from the economic centre of the UK. Even if you are not fussed about travelling to London for a day out the economic benefits of better transport will be felt by all. Less time travelling means more productivity!
132

Scottish/American,

04/06/2008 08:02:30
""We dont need trains to england nor roads nor aircraft the lot should be perminantly closed, let no one into Scotland and no one out of it we dont need trains they should be scrapped more dirty deisel lorries we want
and no more aircraft international or otherwise.
Im all for a scottish iron curtain""

*This is the funniest thing I have read in a long time!
LoL...Thank you for this laugh!!
A "Scottish Iron Curtain" is a hilarious line!

So, what you're really saying is when folks need to go down south on business, we should "cruise" it down the Atlantic? Hawhawhaw...


133

jumbojim,

edinburgh 23/10/2008 16:24:10
For £30b the government could buy us all Bugatti Verons, meaning high speed travel anywhere in Scotland, UK & Europe.

But seriously, a great way to spend £30b, a long-lasting investment with huge dividends!

Very exciting if the money can be found, good that Scotland will be included on a new GB big project (like concord & channel tunnel). Something we could all be proud of.

 

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